The Publishing Deal: Publicist Caitlin Lawless

In this episode of the Book Deal Podcast, hosts Madeline Cleary and Tina Strachan interview Caitlin Lawless, the publicity manager at New South. Caitlin shares her extensive experience in the publishing industry, offering invaluable advice to aspiring authors. Topics include the difference between marketing and publicity, building a relationship with your publicist, and preparing for a successful book launch. Caitlin also discusses her journey in the industry, the importance of persistence, and tips for leveraging social media and local festivals to enhance book visibility.

00:00 Introduction to the Book Deal Podcast
00:40 Meet Caitlin Lawless: Publicity Manager and Author
02:07 Caitlin's Journey in the Publishing Industry
06:44 Understanding Marketing and Publicity
10:31 Building Relationships with Publicists
20:33 The Role of ARCs in Publicity Campaigns
24:18 High Profile Campaigns and Their Impact
26:43 The Role of Social Media in Publicity
28:26 Optimizing Your Online Presence
30:52 Creating Buzz as an Aspiring Author
32:58 The Importance of Community and Networking
38:27 Effective Pre-Order Strategies
41:14 Navigating Festival Programs
45:02 Final Tips for a Successful Campaign

Links from the episode:
NewSouth Books

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Transcript

Madeleine: Our second guest for the next iteration of the publishing deal is Caitlin Lawless. Caitlin is the publicity manager at New South, but she's also an editor and a writer herself with over a decade of experience in the industry.

Caitlin has worked on media campaigns for local and international authors, including Muriel Barbary, Val [00:01:00] McDermid, Veronica Roth. Megan Davis and Henry Reynolds. She's also worked for writers festivals and for literary journals here in Australia and in the UK. Is a fiction reader for Overland Journal and is a co founder of the Dinner Party Press event series and the Micro Journal Paragraph.

She has done a lot. Kaitlin and I first met as booksellers over a decade ago and her passion for books and this industry has not changed one bit. So join Tina and I, as we chat with Kaitlin about persistence, overcoming shyness, crafting an author brand and how authors can work well with their publicists.

Kaitlin Lawless, welcome to the Book Deal Podcast. Later. We're so happy to have you here. Um, and we're so excited because clearly you are someone with an absolute passion for this industry with lots of advice to give to aspiring authors. Um, so I calculated and total up all the things that you've done in this industry.

So you're a former bookseller, you're an editor, a writer yourself. [00:02:00] You're a co founder of Dinner Party Press, and now you are currently the publicity manager at New South, which is very exciting. So tell us, you must obviously have such a passion for this industry, but what, what drew you in? Yeah, pretty much obsessed.

Caitlin: Um, I think naturally, I just always loved books, which is a classic, classic question. Um, but I haven't, I guess you, You kind of think you're going to go in one way to the industry or another, and my path has been kind of windy. And I think just like an author's path to publication, the path to finding your way in the publishing industry, sometimes it's a bit, it's a bit windy and chaotic.

Caitlin: Um, so that was me. I just studied, um, English at uni, um, and then moved to, that was in Adelaide. Then I moved to Melbourne and got a job at Dimmi, which is where I met you. Yes. Yeah. And so I [00:03:00] think as soon as I got that job, which was like, to me, like my biggest dream come true as a 22 year old, um, I knew that this is just what I wanted to do forever, like whatever it was with books.

Caitlin: Um, I got into a publishing course at Melbourne, um, RMIT, which was really good. And that gave me an insight into every facet of publishing, every department. And really, I couldn't, I just loved everyone. Like I said, we had the A three hour long lecture on paper stock. And I was just there like writing notes.

Caitlin: Like, Oh my God, this is incredible. And 

Madeleine: that course at RMIT, so many people have done that course. It seems to be very popular. 

Caitlin: It's sort of, it's changed to a master's. Now it was a grad dip. I I'd say it was compared to the Melbourne one and what I've heard, it was more practical. It was more like I did it while working full time at the bookshop.

Caitlin: At night, so it was really like the people who were either already in the industry, [00:04:00] or it really just set you up for getting a job. So most people, by the end of the course, had a job in the industry by the end of it, which was true for me. So I got my first job in editing, um, in educational publishing. Um, and then, yeah, from volunteered, um, a bunch of places, I worked for literary journals, went overseas for a bit, um, that whole melting pot of random, seemingly random things.

Caitlin: Ended up in being the perfect, um, foundation for a public publicist, which is also completely chaotic, which we'll talk about. Um, and you need to have a knowledge of every bit of the industry really helps. Um, and it also really helps. in giving that advice to authors, which is, um, a big part of the job. 

Tina: I love that story, Caitlin, um, you know, the seemingly [00:05:00] random, you know, paths that you took to get where you are now.

Tina: And I think that happens, you know, over time for a lot of people, you know, even with the books that I'm writing now, they, my path was quite random, a lot of it, and sometimes quite unrelated, but it just, Actually provided the best background. So yeah, it's important. Do you think it's important to just sort of, if you have a passion, just throw yourself into whatever's available?

Caitlin: Yeah. I think saying yes to things, um, and doing things that aren't scary, like going on a podcast.

Caitlin: And that, that resilience and persistence, I think I've seen. Um, like with my getting that foot in the door can take, it took years to get into trade publishing, for example, which is like the most comfortable, um, I guess, hardest place to get into in, in publishing. Um, but yeah, if you keep [00:06:00] trying, then eventually, um, people will see that passion and all come through.

Caitlin: Um, and that's the same with, with authors. I think I've also been in the industry for over 10 years. You see the path that authors who were starting out 10 years ago and now only just publishing their debut book. Um, and you can see that it's just that persistence that led them there. And it's, it it's, um, I guess heartening because Because it just shows that that work does pay off in the end.

Caitlin: And it's, it's not unlikely if you do put in that work that you will get published. 

Tina: Yeah, that's amazing, Caitlin. And like you said, it provided all this, um, wonderful experience has now led you to be a publicist. And, um, So I guess one question that a lot of people have and myself included is, um, marketing and publicity.

Tina: So they're often sort of referred to together sometimes as the same thing, but they're quite different. Uh, can [00:07:00] you give us, um, a bit of an explanation on to how they're different and, and what that means? 

Caitlin: I would say basic answer is marketing is paid for, publicity is free, um, but now it's sort of, I can see there's, there's the third prong to that, which is social media, digital, and even video now as it's, it's kind of its own thing.

Caitlin: So I would probably place that under marketing. And then the other thing to note is that in many publishing houses, they're interlinked. So New South, where I work with a, I guess, small to medium publisher. So we have a quite small publishing team, um, where we work on both publicity and marketing and you call that an integrated campaign.

Caitlin: Um, and then in the larger houses, sometimes it's It's connected. Sometimes it's separated. Um, and we're definitely in dialogue with each of the teams and the sales team as well, constantly. So there's a lot of [00:08:00] collaboration there, but yeah, the difference is marketing is stuff that you've got a budget for your book.

Caitlin: And that's allocated to different, um, sections of, of marketing. So there might be print ads, digital ads, um, paid spots on, on certain things. Um, catalogs is, is kind of sales and marketing connected. Um, and then publicity is like your reviews, interviews, events, um, things that you're kind of, um, pitching for and then getting for free.

Madeleine: That's interesting. Actually, I'm interested to know when do you start working like on a campaign for an author's release? Because there's so many questions always going on like, when should we meet with our publicity team? At what point will they come into our life and world? 

Caitlin: Yeah, I guess I want to stress that every book is different.

Caitlin: Every publishing house is different and every individual publicist, um, is different. Work style is different. Generally, there's, there's timelines. [00:09:00] Um, also things come up in publicity that can throw off the timelines. So, um, something big might happen and then you won't hear from someone for a while. But, um, generally, I guess.

Caitlin: The publicist starts thinking about each title almost like a year out, because that's when, like, um, at our publishing house, for example, we sit in on the acquisitions meeting. So we see it come through the contracts stage. So we know about the books. We start hearing the pitches coming, or like the elevator pitch for it, we start formulating who we think the audience will be for that book, and we get allocated the title quite early on, so I'd say 9 to 12 months out, we're thinking about it, but we're not necessarily in touch with the author then.

Caitlin: Then after, um, the publishing stage is sort of finished, then it's handed to the, the publicist. So you always kind of have a main point of [00:10:00] contact. If it's not the publisher that you're talking to, then it moves on to the publicist. Um, but yeah, there's no concrete, um, time frame, but I would probably say about six months out, you would be in contact with them by now, or you would know kind of the process.

Caitlin: And then three months out, you might have a more like detailed meeting with them. And then the closer it gets to 

Madeleine: publication, the more contacts you'll have. Caitlin, what would you recommend in terms of how much should we be engaging with our publicist? Should, are we, you know, should we be checking in, or should we just wait and find out the plan when it comes?

Caitlin: I think definitely don't wait if you're feeling anxious. Um, I think the most important thing an, an author can do is work on building that relationship with the publicist, um, while understanding that early on [00:11:00] they're, Possibly their main concern is the books that are coming out at that point in time, but slowly building up that working relationship with them is really going to help the author's anxiety, and it's going to help with the publicist to pitch the book and you in the future, and that can be started quite early on, and it doesn't have to be extensive.

Caitlin: I'd say you can send a check in email, but keep it quite brief, where it's a short answer that you're going to get the answer to quite quickly, and then that's totally fine. Um, but yeah, nothing wrong with checking in and allaying any anxieties or questions, um, that you might have. And just getting a clearer sense of the timeline is really, is, um, a good tip.

Caitlin: Um, if you, if you're not sure, and In terms of what the author can is allowed to do, which I think is something that comes up or not like stepping on stepping on someone's toes or [00:12:00] you're not sure what they're doing compared with what you should be doing. That's where having that conversation early on is really helpful where you can I see it as like a definitely a partnership and a team, a team effort.

Caitlin: I love it. Where if you work really well as a team together, that's going to get the best results. And it's not the author doing all the work because the publicist is too busy, but it's the author doing everything that they can do. So things that, um, such as. I guess finicky things like making sure you deliver, um, author photos on time, or you send that author video back, um, or, I don't know, you, you share all your contacts that you have with, with all the details that you have, um, promptly.

Caitlin: That leaves the publicist clear to do more high level stuff that the author can't do, so they have access to, um, different people that you might not have access to. So that leaves them clear [00:13:00] for that, that more high level stuff, if that makes sense. 

Madeleine: Yeah. So publicists, I know are just so busy. Like you've got, you've got so many things to be doing all at once.

Madeleine: That's all we hear is that publicists are incredibly busy. So what does a day in the life of a publicist look like? 

Caitlin: Um, yeah, it's hard to it's hard to say because it is kind of every I mean, that's kind of a cliche. Every day is different. Um, you wouldn't become a publicist if you didn't love that rapid fire like things coming at you.

Caitlin: Um, we love to be busy. So it's not like everyone's there. Um, you know. Breaking their backs and like really hating their jobs. It's like, this is what we love to do. So sending more things to the publicist, there's a, I guess there's a balance, um, where, where there's just enough, like you don't go overboard, but sending more things through is kind of good.

Caitlin: Um, so day in the life, I would say. You [00:14:00] have to be across what's happening. So in the news, um, in the media, I read, I, um, subscribe to magazines on my library app. So I am constantly checking that to see which books are being reviewed in like the, the women's magazines. We subscribe to the newspapers. So constantly reading the news.

Caitlin: Um, when we have time listening to the radio, you have to kind of be up to date with, with what's happening. Okay. Checking out who's programming different festivals. So that's just general everyday. We're keeping on top of that. Um, then get to work, um, check immediate urgent emails. Um, and then it could be anything from making a campaign plan.

Caitlin: So sitting down, thinking about the audience for a book, who are you going to pitch to, where? Um, there's writing media releases. Um, which is thinking of hooks for the book, different themes, and [00:15:00] then composing that, and then sending it out to your contacts. There's meeting the authors, doing an author meeting, there's meeting festivals for a pitch meeting, um, attending acquisitions meetings, like I said.

Caitlin: And then after work, you're heading out to events, um, a lot of the time, not all the time. That's the fun part. Um, or booking, say, booking flights for your author and then, or for yourself to go to festivals, accompanying authors to festivals. Um, yeah. 

Madeleine: It sounds so glamorous, Caitlin, when you describe it. 

Caitlin: It actually is.

Caitlin: I 

Madeleine: think 

Caitlin: if I left publicity, I would really miss the parties. I would miss the parties. 

Tina: I 

Tina: think I'm going to join 

Tina: publicity if I can. That sounds 

Tina: awesome. 

Tina: Yeah, that sounds very glamorous. I didn't realize it was, yeah, although it was so broad. Um, so obviously a big part of your job is working directly with the [00:16:00] authors and, um, they are not the most sometimes outgoing of, of people of, um, yeah, quite sometimes quite shy.

Tina: Um, how do you, how do you find that? How do you navigate that? 

Caitlin: Yeah, I guess on the outset, I would reveal that I'm the most shy person as well. Um, and also anxious. And that doesn't mean it has to stop you from doing the things that is going to get your book noticed. Like, even though you're shy, you can still do radio interviews.

Caitlin: Um, you can still do events and not the, I see the publicist job is to be that cheerleader to, to give them confidence and to say, You can do this. Um, even if you faff all stuff up, like you, the most important thing is that you've, you've done it. Um, and you should feel proud of yourself and also remind them that whatever media that you get, it's incredibly hard to [00:17:00] get it.

Caitlin: So, yeah. If you do get it, you should be really appreciative of, of those people taking that time often to read your book and, and give you that, um, that space. Um, but yeah, there's, there's different levels of, of anxiety in authors. And I think that's something that I find really rewarding is working on that relationship and getting to know that person as a person.

Caitlin: And then, and seeing how you can do that. I guess one of my main goals is. Finding out what the author really wants to achieve with their publicity campaign and helping them to get to that goal as well beyond selling books. That's just the bonus at the end. 

Madeleine: Yeah. No, I think that's, um, amazing and publicity can be when, when, when you've got so, uh, so authors, um, out there, sometimes things can be quite controversial if someone's putting something is all publicity, good publicity, or would you say there are some bad types of publicity as [00:18:00] well?

Madeleine: Um, there's 

Caitlin: definitely things you can say to put your foot in it. Um, but that's another part that I love about being a publicist is those challenges that come up and how you work with the author to solve those challenges, or you work with your publishing house to solve the challenges. Um, I, yeah, I would just.

Caitlin: I'm just, I kind of understand that authors are just humans. So. They're not perfect, and it's about working on, I think, before they get out in front of the public, working on the messaging for the book, um, to avoid those sorts of things happening, but in terms of good reviews, bad reviews, um, I would say creating a discussion is, is good publicity.

Caitlin: So if there's a mix of good reviews and bad reviews, that's amazing. Love it. 

Madeleine: Oh, that's a great thing to have actually, because we, I think as [00:19:00] authors, we're, we're terrified of bad reviews, but from a publicist perspective in sparking the conversation is the important thing. 

Caitlin: Yeah. I think I might be slightly jaded because the publicity landscape has completely, it's sort of changed where if you get a review in a, in a paper and it's not just the blurb copy.

Caitlin: That's like incredible. So if someone has gone to the trouble to read the book and respond to it, and it's a proper review, even if it's negative, then usually I find authors will really appreciate it. And a lot of the time it's not complete, like a panning. it's a balanced review. So they'll only see the negative, but it will be all these positive things.

Caitlin: And at the end, like, Oh, but they could have, like, they really like should have done this. But, but the fact that they've had an in depth look at your book, that's what should be rewarding to the author. And usually it is, I think. 

Tina: That's awesome advice. Because it's, um, it's, [00:20:00] and it's a great way to look at it, isn't it?

Tina: Cause yeah, you can imagine it's going to happen and, um, yeah, it's, it's good to be prepared for it and look at it that way. 

Caitlin: It's really hard to distance yourself from it being personal. I know as an author, but when you see it as a publicist, you can also see one really respected reviewer. Have a completely different opinion to another really respected reviewer.

Caitlin: And you know, just it's not the quality of the work. It's just their opinions. 

Tina: Personal preference. 

Caitlin: Yeah. That's good to keep 

Tina: in mind. Yeah. Um, one question that's been, um, discussed a little bit through the debut crews is to do with arcs. Uh, cause I think there's quite a few people at this stage where arcs are going out.

Tina: Now. And, uh, just in regards to, um, is that something that publicity does? Are they the ones going out there? Are you actually going out there? Um, you know, it's, I think it's mostly for, uh, reviews. Is it for external reviews [00:21:00] or mostly for, um, endorsements for the book. Uh, who how do you decide who gets one

Tina: How often do they respond back? Because I, I imagine they get a lot of them. 

Caitlin: Um, yeah. So. I asked the kind of for a number of different sections of the publishing house. So, um, sales will get a bunch to send to the sales reps who will disseminate them to booksellers. Then, um, You will obviously get one to check over for proofing errors, um, and then publicity will get a big chunk to send out for early review copies.

Caitlin: And then another, uh, I guess prong is to send them out to influential people. Who are going to share it and kind of build that buzz. So, um, we probably get, um, yeah, I won't say how many we get because it can differ. Um, but before when we are [00:22:00] creating a publicity campaign, that's when we decide, um, who the audience for the target audience for the book will be.

Caitlin: And in thinking about that, that's how we allocate the arc. So, You'll want a section to go to early radio, early reviewers, um, TV, just to, um, get it across their desk, even if they don't respond. So you might not hear back from, from them if you're following up on whether or not they got it. But then three months later, they might, they might see the book again and now that will trigger like, Oh, I know that one.

Caitlin: Okay. We'll book you. So yeah, you kind of send them out hoping for the best, um, and you never know where they'll end up. So it's always good to have a physical copy going out to people. Um, what 

Madeleine: publicity do you think sells the most books? Um, there are certain 

Caitlin: spots. that lead [00:23:00] to actions. So it might be, um, if you're on ABC Conversations that has such a wide range, um, that might lead to more sales, for example, than a smaller radio show.

Caitlin: Um, but nothing is really, there's no real, there's, there's no real rule, guaranteed. If you get into mainstream, um, commercial spots, like on a really well known, like the shameless book club or something that might lead to us, but it's really about matching the book with the audience. If you're on a show.

Caitlin: And then the contents of the book doesn't really reach the viewers, then that's not really going to lead to sales, even though it's a really big show. Um, so it's about a combination of, of where you're reaching people across the whole campaign. It's not really about the individual spots, but I will say more high profile things.[00:24:00] 

Caitlin: Probably have a bigger effect on booksellers who are ordering stock because they can be more, um, they want a guarantee that that book will sell through. And that kind of adds to the. Um, yeah, that, that it's not, it's less of a risk if you've got locked in. 

Madeleine: What, what, what's the been one of the some high profile ones you campaigns you've worked on?

Madeleine: What's been the most fun perhaps? 

Caitlin: Yeah, I think the most rewarding campaigns are the ones where you can see that snowball in effect. So last year I worked on getting to know the birds in your neighborhood by Daryl Jones, the bird expert, but it's like this combination of. He's a brand name author that you've been building up for a number of years, the new book comes out, you've got a multi city tour that's planned, and then, and then you, you start planning the radio and he's getting TV and then you see it kind of snowball, um, and [00:25:00] more requests come in.

Caitlin: I think he was on, Like one goal is to get national radio, national TV, like national coverage and then local coverage. Um, and then you see that lead to more and more sales. And I think I, we, he was sending through the Booktopia, like it just going up and up the bestsellers list. And then that's, I don't know.

Caitlin: It's rewarding when you do see results of the campaign and he's just a lovely guy. 

Tina: I actually did a panel with Daryl Jones like two months ago. 

Caitlin: Yes. Was he wearing a bird shirt? 

Tina: He was wearing a bird shirt, had gangangs on the front. Um, yeah, but it wasn't related to birds. It was related to, um, koala overpasses over roads.

Tina: Oh 

Caitlin: yeah. Yeah. 

Tina: That's pretty cool. I didn't realize that you worked 

Tina: with 

Tina: him. 

Caitlin: Yeah, he's great. I've got another book coming out next, next year that I've just started, um, working on the, the [00:26:00] body copy for, so I mean the blood 

Madeleine: stuff. So do you have to become an expert in birds then, Caitlin? 

Caitlin: I think that's the fun part is you do, by osmosis, become an expert in every, like I just did one on, um, women aviators.

Caitlin: So I, I've learned all this random stuff about paragliding and like speed skydiving and, um, yeah, it's so fun. I 

Tina: love it. Jeez. What's the target market for women aviators when you're for publicity? 

Caitlin: Rural, rural women, um, dreamers, I would say, we want to escape the everyday life. That's cool. 

Madeleine: That's awesome. So, um, Caitlin, this is being a little bit of the bane of everyone's, all the authors existence.

Madeleine: We love social media, but we also sometimes despise social media. Yeah, we want to spend all our time writing, but we know that it's an important part of the business of the brand, the author [00:27:00] brand and having a social media, engaging with readers and actually engaging readers and writers is super fun, but it can often be a time suck as well.

Madeleine: How important is social media and having a social media profile for publicity campaigns? Is it important? Is it needed? Does it sell more books? Do you think? 

Caitlin: Uh, I think what we always say is. If it is, if it is authentic to the author and what they feel like they want to be doing, then that's when it's successful.

Caitlin: And if it feels forced and you don't have a profile and you're trying to build one from scratch quickly, um, that's where it often doesn't work. You definitely sell more books if you have networks set up already there, um, be that online or through a, you know, a sub stack or personal networks, um, yeah, I would say it's definitely not, like being shy, you don't have to be gregarious to be a [00:28:00] popular author.

Caitlin: You don't have to change yourself to sell books. Um, so yeah, I wouldn't break you back over it, but it does, It's unavoidable that, that it helps more if you have people out there who you can go through your own networks to, to promote your book. Yeah. 

Madeleine: Hmm. No, that's good. So with Tina and I approaching this, like this is stuff and Tina's going to go through this first.

Madeleine: What, what, what would you say is what, what do we need to do to help you, I suppose? 

Caitlin: Yeah, I think, um, you're already doing a lot of stuff that I've noticed that is really excellent. I think keeping in mind that, that everyone does look people up as a short, like I think about publicity a lot as shorthand, you have the, you're pitching things and you have to translate things into shorthand where.

Caitlin: They're going to see this, this, and this, and they're going to say, okay, what new for that festival? And part of that is, I would say, optimizing the [00:29:00] content that you do put online, optimizing your brand branding or your imaging. So, um, making sure your website looks professional, if you've got one, even if it's just a landing page, um, within about me, um, and making sure you've, you've got professional headshots that match the image that you want to put across to people in that split second, that they're going to look at you and.

Caitlin: Kind of know what kind of person you are. 

Madeleine: And you can do that even without a publishing contract. Like if you're trying to, you know, uh, find a publisher for your, for your manuscript, having that professional website I've heard is really helpful because everyone Googles everybody. 

Caitlin: Yeah. And it's just that, that split second of, of, I can trust that this person is going to come through with the goods and not be like difficult or, or.

Caitlin: You know, it's going to be easy process for us because they've already done this, this, this, and this, um, but nothing's, nothing's essential, but this definitely helps, um, your bio, I [00:30:00] think, oh, one thing I did want to share people hate. Endorsements on books, I find they're like, I didn't get this. It's just stupid.

Caitlin: It's all the same, like riveting, engaging, but, but the way I see endorsements or puff pieces or blurbs or whatever you like to call them, it's the shorthand. So it doesn't really matter. What's in the content, as long as it's glowing, it matters who, who it is, because that's what connects. Those people with your book.

Caitlin: So it's, you know, what kind of book this is based on the people who are blurbing it. And it's the same with your bio that they can see what kind of author you are based on where you've published before, which prizes you've won, that kind of thing. 

Madeleine: Love that. 

Tina: Yeah. So that's, so. Yeah, that was gonna answer pretty much the question that I was gonna ask next.

Tina: In, in, if you're not signed and you are an aspiring published author, what can you [00:31:00] do to create, I guess, that profile or that, um, yeah, a little bit of, you know, buzz about yourself, I guess. 'cause it's really hard when you haven't got it, you know, if you don't have a book or anything coming up. yet to talk about or to promote.

Tina: What, what can you do that's going to help? 

Caitlin: Yeah, I think there's lots you can do, but I also love talking about that creating your own buzz. And I think that's something also to remind authors not to be afraid of. of talking yourself up and talking about your book, especially when it's just about to come out.

Caitlin: Um, don't be shy in tooting your own horn, toot that horn. I'm going to be so shy, 

Tina: but I will try. 

Caitlin: You've got such a short amount of time to toot it and you should be so proud of yourselves. Um, that, yeah, just shout at them from the rooftops. But in terms of people starting out, I would always suggest working backwards.

Caitlin: So find the authors that you want to emulate or find [00:32:00] that space that you want to be in, see what they've done and then work backwards and, and build that community and that profile, like surround yourself with those people that you want to be, be near. So, um, I think. Uh, even just finding your local bookshop, your local festivals, spending time there, getting to know the people, um, and then, Submitting to those journals that you, that you want to be in, um, yeah, applying for competitions.

Caitlin: Um, and then that is, as soon as that kind of starts rolling, it's kind of similar to a publicity, then that will lead to, to more opportunities. Um, you never know who you're going to meet at those things that will lead to a different opportunity down the path. 

Madeleine: Oh, that's so 

Caitlin: true 

Madeleine: and excellent. Is that your top tip, Caitlin?

Madeleine: Oh yeah. Yeah. Chat to people. That's fantastic. I think 

Tina: that's great. I was just going to point out, it always comes back [00:33:00] to sort of community, doesn't it? Yeah. And, um, building that, building that community, which I know it can sound really daunting, especially when you literally, you know, you haven't even maybe put your work out anywhere.

Tina: But I know, and you, you're both probably the same, that I find, because we are all kind of shy, um, You know, everyone's in the same boat and everyone's just super supportive no matter what stage you're at. You know, you, you know, I go to writers groups and, um, local writers, uh, events that are on and there's people that are literally just starting to write.

Tina: And there's people who have published multiple books and they're all in the same room and, you know, You know, if they have published multiple books, they remember what that was like beforehand when they were just starting to write and then nothing got supportive. So that's going to be my top tip for today.

Tina: Um, I don't know if I've done this one before, but, um, yeah, definitely to, um, to just join a group and don't be daunted, I think, and go and build that [00:34:00] community. 

Caitlin: And at the festivals, go to the parties. 

Tina: Always helpful. 

Caitlin: Authors always get invited 

Tina: to the best parties. Yeah. Cause that's when everyone's loose. Um, so I just want to, um, you mentioned something, you know, about tooting your own horn and that you should do it as much as possible because the timeframe is short.

Tina: What is that timeframe? Is there an ideal sort of time beforehand in the lead up to do it? Um, or should you hold off completely until a particular point and how long afterwards is like your golden moment? 

Madeleine: You can't toot your horn continuously. Can you? Okay. I've seen people still tooting horns happening.

Caitlin: I, I think if you're, if you like the person and you're following them, it doesn't phase, like, it's not a big deal. I think you think it's such a big deal, but really it's, it's like, oh great, that's that book again. And the more you see something on social media or anywhere, if you see it again and again and again, I know with the like, Ads that come up for whatever on Instagram, [00:35:00] eventually you're like, I probably should buy that now.

Caitlin: Um, so I, in terms of timeframe, there's the, when you have maybe a cover reveal, there's, there's something that pinpoints it. So there'll be the, the, the publishing data will come up on the website. There'll be a pre order button. Pre orders definitely help with getting stock into bookshops. It's that kind of mitigating the risk.

Caitlin: If, if there's lots of pre orders, they're going to order stocking because they know it's going to sell through probably. Um, so there's that, that stage where you can start to toot the horn. Um, and then I would say probably two weeks out from pub date is when you would ramp it up. Um, We don't like to do publicity in Australia.

Caitlin: Um, I think it's a bit different for fiction and non fiction. Fiction I'd say has a longer kind of lead for, for building that hype, um, to begin with, and then the book comes out. Whereas non fiction, [00:36:00] um, it's more news cycle based. So you kind of just want to wait until that Moment where you're breaking the news of the book and then, then you share it generally, you don't really want to toot it too hard if people can't physically buy it.

Caitlin: Um, because it's just frustrating for people and, um, not everyone wants to pre order, especially with what's happened to Booktopia and stuff like that. But yeah, so I would say from two weeks out and then the month of pub date is the big, like, Hard, hard ball. Um, particularly the week of. Another thing to talk about is availability, making yourself available really in if and if you've got a full-time job, it's that those first week or two that you wanna be completely available in case things come up, um, interviews and, and events and things.

Caitlin: Um, but yeah, I think the general rule of thumb is six weeks. You get about six weeks. And then it peters off, but 

Madeleine: things still happen. Do [00:37:00] you keep in touch with your authors after that six week period? Or is it just, it's just not as intense and it kind of flattens out? Yeah, I 

Caitlin: think it's, it's, it's based on what comes in.

Caitlin: So if a review comes in, we'll let you know. If, if the book wins a prize, we'll get back in touch. Um. And we will send updates if something happens. And if you contact us, um, we'll still, uh, follow through with whatever you'd like, Oh, I think you should wish I'd like to be submitted to this prize or something, we'll respond to that.

Caitlin: But definitely. Peters off a bit after the six weeks, 

Madeleine: but authors don't have to feel worried that that's, that's a normal progression. Yeah. And, but I get authors, 

Caitlin: I'm still chatting to authors from whose books came out last year. Um, and some books, it depends on the book. So some books have a longer, longer lead time and other books, um, Other books are more flash in the pan and they've had that moment and it will still sell, but you don't need to be [00:38:00] constantly in contact, but yeah, never be afraid to, to email your publicist, but I would say just build that relationship with them at the start.

Caitlin: And then, you know, if you're going to be annoying. Try and try and read the vibe. And it's more like talking to a friend. It's not like, it's not anything else. So you can just text your friend all the time. So don't get too friendly. Don't 

Tina: drop into the DMs. So what can you do to get pre orders, you know, like we can post the link up on our socials.

Tina: Um, I guess, you have a newsletter and people have signed up for it, um, you can add it to that, send it to friends and family. How else do you get pre orders? Because we've all heard pre orders are so important. It goes towards your first week of sales, um, which then, you know, how your first week goes. can, you know, determine quite a few other things about how you sit in charts and things like that.

Tina: How can, what can, yeah, [00:39:00] authors do to get pre orders? 

Caitlin: I think it's really tricky for authors because there is that pressure that is seemingly put on them. Um, and I think it's important to understand it's not all on you and whether or not the book will be a success. It's, it's the sales team's job. Um, but Uh, I think that friends and family are the most important ones who will be more, most likely to pre order and where you're not, you're not really selling, trying to sell, hard sell them something by sending the link.

Caitlin: It's like they'll appreciate the link. They'll probably want to know the link. You're just providing it to them. Um, on your social media, it's hard, you don't really want to be linking people to buy all the time because you want to be your authentic self. But I think making sure that pre order link is in your optimized content.

Caitlin: So on your, your landing page, it's available there. It's clearly written pre order where it is appropriate. You add the link pre 

Tina: order. So the sales team do [00:40:00] do pre orders, they're working on pre orders. So what are, what are they doing even? Like who, who are they? Asking for pre orders. 

Caitlin: Uh, so when we share, um, it's, I guess, online social media marketing, anytime we talk about the book, we'd link to the pre order, pre order campaign, um, and then it's the sales team to, to sell to the book.

Caitlin: They convince the buyers how much quantity they're getting in like a couple months out. So they might be doing that three months out. And if. you point to the pre order campaign, then you can say, this is what we're doing to promote the book that might help get more orders up. 

Madeleine: Because 

Caitlin: if the publisher is really behind a book, then the booksellers will be confident that it can sell.

Madeleine: Wow. There's been so much here. I feel like I need to relisten to this with a notebook, um, because this is so, so helpful, Caitlin. And I know that Um, our debut crew for next year are just going to love this, but it's [00:41:00] also really interesting. I think for writers who are starting out to, you know, just to have this in mind, like creating that authentic profile in advance, rather than just seeing your profiles away to sell books, because it probably won't work if it's not authentic.

Tina: So Caitlin, you did mention festivals before as well, and so that was one of the questions that I had as well. And so did the Debu crew is, how do we get on the program? What's the, what's the best way? What's the do's and don'ts? 

Caitlin: Yeah, I think, um, one thing that sort of changed over the last couple of years, um, is that there's just an abundance of festivals.

Caitlin: There's your national ones, then there's regional ones. There's little boutique ones, there's special genre ones. There's so many. Um, so at a publishing house, for us to pitch individually your title to every single one is unfeasible. Um, but it's, it's quite hard to get on the programs for the large ones.

Caitlin: So it is often really good to [00:42:00] target to, to your local audience, I would say. And so, um, one thing that. an author can do, I think, is find those festivals where you have a personal connection or a local connection. And I would say communicate to your publicist, um, that you're going to, if you want to pitch to them yourself, that you're going to, um, and then, yeah, come in with a, with a personalized pitch to, to those festivals.

Caitlin: Um, but the, the publisher will, um, Pitch to the main ones. Um, so we usually do an individual pitch with where we have our highlights and then we go through each title and, and so try and get on the program. And then the smaller ones, we send them a, a document that has the list and we might not have that personal conversation about each title.

Caitlin: Um, and then the further you go down to the smaller ones, the less [00:43:00] contact we'll have with them. So. Um, I definitely think authors have gotten on programs from pitching themselves to festivals and particularly libraries as well. There's so many libraries, there's so many regional bookstores, um, reaching out to any that you feel a personal connection to.

Caitlin: Or if you're going to be travelling to a certain place, um, let your publicist know, I'm going to be in this place. Is it okay if I pitch to, to this, this and this that I've, that I've found and then that's usually really successful. And then what the publicist can do is once you've got, say, a regional tour or a multi, multi library tour that you've organized yourself, then we can jump in and organize media around the tour.

Caitlin: So it's that working together. 

Madeleine: So the key there, I hear is communication. Yeah. Yeah. So making sure everyone's well informed of what you're doing, because it sounds like there is opportunities for authors to do, to pitch to those types of things [00:44:00] themselves, as long as it's, and because I guess it provides that local, authentic, you know, self side of things.

Madeleine: Um, but making sure that you're keeping your publicist in the loop. 

Caitlin: Yeah. And definitely for the more well known places, I'd probably trust that the publisher has that covered, um, the high level places. Um, right. 

Madeleine: So don't just email randomly the director of Sydney Writers Festival. 

Caitlin: But the other thing is what a lot of authors don't realize what happens behind the scenes.

Caitlin: And people often get invited to festivals because they do personally know the person programming, or there is some sort of personal connection and you think it's just random, um, but there's often strings that are getting pulled behind the scenes that you might not realize. So it's, um, yeah, it is so tricky to get onto the festival bill.

Caitlin: So you shouldn't feel bad if you don't get on any. Um, but 

Madeleine: yeah. [00:45:00] Fingers crossed. We'll, we'll try our best. Just to finish, did, did you have one single top tip that you want to leave our listeners with? I think, think of 

Caitlin: your dream campaign and what you really want to get out of the experience and treat it like a golden experience that you're so lucky to have and communicate that with your team and say, I would really like this to happen and put that wish into the world and just see what they can do and know that.

Caitlin: The publishing team and the publicists are working their hardest and put your trust in them that they really want you to succeed and they really want the book to sell and they're doing everything they can, um, to make it a bestseller. Fingers 

Madeleine: crossed. I love that. That's, that's a wonderful thing. Well, thank you so much, Caitlin.

Madeleine: Um, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for your time. Oh, thank you.