The Book Deal

When is your manuscript ready to submit?

• Tina Strachan • Season 1 • Episode 11

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Madeleine and Tina delve into the challenges of knowing when a manuscript is ready to submit, sharing personal anecdotes about their own journeys to becoming published authors. Key topics include the importance of thorough editing, the patience required in the publishing industry, and the benefits of pre-ordering books to support authors. The conversation also touches on the creativity of children and the idea of doing writing workshops to nurture young writers.

00:00 Introduction and Catching Up
00:42 Bali Trip Highlights
01:18 Writing on the Go
02:54 Creative Kids and Rainbow Poo
05:10 Encouraging Young Writers
06:41 Personal Writing Journeys
13:54 Reading to Write Better
19:06 The Challenge of Writing Pre-Mobile Phone Stories
20:59 Knowing When to Submit Your Manuscript
21:43 The Importance of Polishing Your Manuscript
23:01 Handling Structural Changes and Feedback
29:03 The Role of Competitions in Getting Published
34:40 The Waiting Game: Patience in Publishing
37:15 The Power of Pre-Orders for Authors
38:41 Final Thoughts and Reflections

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Tina Strachan (@td_strachan) • Instagram photos and videos
Tina Strachan children's book author
Madeleine Cleary (@madeleineclearywrites) • Instagram photos and videos
Madeleine Cleary | Author

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Tina:

Hi Madeleine. How are you?

Madeleine:

Um, well, I'm great, Tina, cause I've just spent a week in Bali, which has been lovely. And we've just spent the last 40 minutes catching up before we started this podcast. And we hit a point, didn't we, where we're like, Oh, we need to start hitting record cause we're getting into some interesting stuff.

Tina:

We always, yes. Should just hit record as soon as we start chatting because that's the gold, the golden information we're sharing then, isn't it? Oh,

Madeleine:

How are you? How so much to talk about? Um, so should we maybe do some updates? You've got a few interesting, fun things. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Tina:

I do, but I want to hear about you and Bali and. and. what I really want to know about Bali, um, is I sense a common theme with yourself in that if you ever like on long travel, like a plane or a train, you seem to just write some stories. So

Madeleine:

Oh, I thought you were going to say, um, get a gastro.

Tina:

oh, well, that's just a given, isn't it? When you come back from Bali, but did you, I want to hear, did any, did the muses strike on your plane or

Madeleine:

Yeah. The muses. Yeah. I did bring my, um, laptop with me. And, um, so I should say we were traveling with my husband's family. And so there were lots, lots of family time, which was also really fun. Lots of kids and full time, which was great. Um, but yeah, I did manage to carve away some time to do some writing and I actually came back. back to Melbourne with less words than I started.

Tina:

That's, it sounds ridiculous, but that's still progress.

Madeleine:

It's progress. Exactly. It's progress. So I'm only up to, I'm up to 35, 000, um, words. So I came back with less, but I think. I think you've got to trust your gut. And I think my gut's getting better. Um, talking of gastric, um, I think I'm like sensing. Now the story's direction is going a little bit off track. I can sense that earlier now. So I was able to pull back. So I deleted quite a bit and then redid it and it just felt so much better. And it was just nice to sort of spend some time away, like get out of the normal environment. And yeah, I think that's why. writers go on retreats, isn't it? Just to have that, that space. So no, it was really, really good. And, um, I was also, um, on the bus back to the airport chatting with my, um, eight year old niece, Olivia. Uh, and yeah, we were just talking about stories and stuff like that. And then our, my four year old niece, Chelsea, she woke up, you know, car seat, she turned to us and she said, Oh, um, I was dreaming about rainbow poo. So

Tina:

Hang on, can you clarify? As in rainbow colored human poo, or rainbows that poo?

Madeleine:

She didn't clarify. She just said, I was dream, had this wonderful dream about rainbow poo. And so Olivia and I thought that was hilarious. And, um, and so Olivia, I said, do you want to tell me a story about rainbow poo? She's like, she, I could see the muses striking her because she was like, this is so interesting. And so I said, go for it. Like, tell me a story. So we spent 45 minutes, her telling me a story that she created, it concocted based off the rainbow poo prompt. And I must say it was incredible. I just, and I kept the only things I was saying to her, but then what happened, but then what happened and she'd work well and she would just launch into it. And I, it got me thinking as she was telling me the story, cause it was actually a really. Beautifully told story with a beginning, middle and end. And I said, make sure you have that. You've got to have the beginning, middle and end. And when she said, I think it's finished, I said, you haven't finished it though. There's still, there's still something that needs to wrap this up. And in the end she did. It just got me thinking the creativity of children. We need to try and tap into that because she completely plants the story on the spot in a hot van. We're all exhausted. She carved out that time told this beautifully crafted story.

Tina:

She's a natural storyteller by the sounds of it, isn't it? Because not everyone can do that.

Madeleine:

Um, I don't, children have this, um, imagination though, and I could see she was going off into the world and I was actually transported into the world as well. And so, whereas the rest of the family were hot and bothered in, in the van, we were, we were on a forbidden Island and going down forbidden, Hidden paths and going into fairy land and dream worlds. And then in the end, we found the unicorn that belonged to the rainbow poo.

Tina:

Oh, right. Oh, that's really cool. That's amazing. She should write that down.

Madeleine:

Well, I've said to her that, and to all my nieces, if they write me a story, I'll pay them 20. And she, her eyes lit up. She said, I need a computer now. So she said, dad, can I buy a computer for Christmas? So I can write auntie Madeleine a story.

Tina:

Yeah. Okay. You might end up broke. You might.

Madeleine:

I know, I know.

Tina:

That's a really good idea. I heard someone else saying that their parents used to pay them.

Madeleine:

Uh, that's the Moriarty

Tina:

yes. yes.

Madeleine:

that

Tina:

a great idea.

Madeleine:

it 5 a story, I think. So I added inflation because that was a while ago, they were children. So I thought, well, what's a reasonable amount these days. So yeah,

Tina:

five bucks, you know,

Madeleine:

probably would have, when I said 20, her, yeah. Her expression was like, this is amazing. And then her sister piped up, I want to run them stories too. So I think I will be broke by the

Tina:

Did you put a word, a minimum word count on that?

Madeleine:

I know I should, I said, it has to be well crafted. We're going to have to work on the editing as well. It has to be a proper story. Uh, not just like a couple of dot points. Like you have to write the proper story. So at the airport, she said she wanted to buy pen and paper so she could write it all down. So, um, Anyway, so that's, it's super cool. I just, it was nice to have that time just watch creativity happening. And I just remembered as a child, the way you could go off into your imagination. It's very similar to, I think as an adult, how we write and it's such a joy to go into another, another world, I think, and forget the busy Denpensar, how hot it is and everything you can just go into this. Are your children creative, Tina?

Tina:

Um, my six year old, it remains to be seen yet, um, but there's still time, um, but he's creative in, um, like a, probably more of a theater type way or a comedian type way. And then my eldest, um, I think he is, I think he just needs a little bit of a little bit more direction, but he so cute. And he's so the. Manuscript that I'm working on at the moment. He read my first sample chapters because I knew it was something that would really appeal to him and that age group. And so I gave him to him and he was like, I need to read more. Like, where's the rest of it? So he's super cool. to the point that. The current title that it is, which is probably going to change he, you know, his profiles, like his gaming name profile is now the name of the book and, um, the characters. And he started writing, he's like, I want to write, this was just the other night he started writing, um, a story. And it had very similar elements to what I'm writing. it was so good. It was really deep, which is interesting because that's how I used to write too. Like, and I think I still do, but yeah, it was really, really deep and really thoughtful. And I saw that he'd actually called it the same name as like my manuscript. So like, what are, you know, sometimes your kids just, you know, they, and he's, he's quite quiet. So he, you don't get a lot out of him. So having that is like the best kind of feedback, you know, that

Madeleine:

that's amazing,

Tina:

to be like, yeah, an acknowledgement that, you know, they do take notice of what you do, even though you're boring old mom, you know? So that's really cool. And I really hope he harnesses that, but it's actually got me thinking about, um, how much I enjoyed working with him on that. And, yeah, that's You know, cause he's like, what do I do now? I need another chapter. And I'm like, well, you know, you've got to do this and you know, here's the midpoint you've got to, you've got to either have like that, you know, the high, or it's got to be a real low. And then they've got to go back up again. I'm down and, and, um, loved sort of sharing that. And it made me start thinking about, um, maybe doing. Working towards some like workshops for kids, which, yeah, I, I'd love to do, um, we were chatting in our not recorded time just before about how, um, I've been approaching some libraries and I've got some potential, uh, children's book week. Booking. So, uh, for those who don't know, in the adult writing world, book week is a massive thing now. It's really huge. It's when, you know, all the kids are, you know, they normally have like a book week parade, uh, where they will

Madeleine:

So

Tina:

character.

Madeleine:

I see all the photos of my nieces at book week. I love it.

Tina:

Yes, I know. I've already thought of all the ideas that I want to make my kids wear to book week. That's going to be from my book.

Madeleine:

Oh, yes, of course, that's so exciting. Did

Tina:

wearing it. Um, and yeah, so yeah, so going to some libraries and going to some schools and, uh, just sort of talking about what I could present there in the way of workshops and, and things that would, um, The kids might find interesting and I think I'd really like to do that. Some practical and now I just keep thinking of all these ideas of, of what I could do just to, yeah, get the kids excited. And because I know I was writing when I was young too, and I would have really liked some more direction, um, on that and someone to help you harness it and to take it seriously as well. Did you write

Madeleine:

have any, oh, no, you

Tina:

I was going to say, did you write when you were a kid, Madeleine, or did that come

Madeleine:

I did. Yeah, I did. I wrote some stories and my mum would illustrate them. So I've still got a whole bunch of them, um, in, in my cupboard, in my special box. So, yeah. And then I

Tina:

for some people it comes to them later. Like they really

Madeleine:

yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tina:

a pen. Some people think about it forever and don't do it till later, but some people, uh, yeah, everything, it just all happens later in life. But then some people like you and I, then I just, yeah, we

Madeleine:

telling stories,

Tina:

Mm hmm.

Madeleine:

um, I think what you said about, uh, getting that direction, I think is, um, really important. And I think I was really lucky because my mom was a teacher, a primary school teacher, and then later on a librarian. So books were always something that. We're in our house. And I think she really, you know, helped give that steer and

Tina:

Mm hmm.

Madeleine:

sort of edited my work and made it look really nice and, you know, official and everything. And that, that, that's really inspirational, I think, for, for kids. And I remember when, um, authors came in, I still remember it very vividly when authors used to come and visit schools. It was really, it left such a massive impression, I think, and it was really inspiring. Did you have that experience? Hmm.

Tina:

remember that as well. I remember my mom taking me to the State Library of Queensland so many years ago to, um, yeah, to see one of the authors there and yeah, I do remember that, but I, uh, yeah, I don't know if there was many. workshops and stuff though, for kids to help with writing is there, was there back then? Like, I, I mean, I don't know, we were, when we were young, we probably didn't know, but, um, yeah, so I don't know what other help, but that was really good having your mom who was super helpful. And my dad was super helpful too, cause he was a big reader and he did also love going through my writing and sort of editing it for me. But I have a, um, I don't know if I've told you this before, but I, I have some stories from when I was younger and mum pulled them out recently and there's a letter from my teacher and another teacher, English teacher, and I was, I believe I was 11 at the time. And it was saying, it was attached to one of the stories that I'd written when I was 11 saying, this is really good. Do you mind if we go and seek publishing or speak to publishers about this? I know, and I'd completely forgotten about it. I'd completely forgotten about it. And then mum pulled it out the other day and I was like, mum, what did you say? Like, I

Madeleine:

Yes. Well, why is this not published?

Tina:

didn't get published. So what happened? She's like, Oh, I don't know. I don't remember. I'm like, Oh my God. Right. So it just took another 30 years.

Madeleine:

Can you, can, maybe this can be your, uh,

Tina:

pretty good. I have to say, I think it's

Madeleine:

year old Tina.

Tina:

And it's the same thing. It had the full beginning, middle and an end, and no one No one really taught me that. It's just some people, I think, are innate storytellers.

Madeleine:

Well, maybe, but Tina, you also probably read a lot. And I think when you read, read a lot, you, you do sort of, you, you, you're able to sort of understand the structures of stories and how to tell a good story. I think. Okay. Bye. Cause you're sort of emulating, aren't you? And, and when you asked her to say, and said, my niece, she may, maybe she's particularly good storyteller. I think, yes, but she's also a reader. So she understands the flow of stories. And I think there,

Tina:

Yeah. And They go hand in hand, right? You talk to any publisher or, uh, any writing, you know, um, tutor that you have to read, especially in the genre that you want to write in. Um, you have to read a lot. You,

Madeleine:

your genre too, especially. So, and make a commitment to it because you'll pick up different things and you'll make your genre more interesting. So I think, yeah, read as widely as you can. It's just so important. There you go. There's my top tip.

Tina:

Love it. It's a very practical one. It's basic but it's true. And you know what? I was at a Gold Coast Writers Center meeting the other week and Rowena Beresford from Riveted Press was there and she said the exact same thing. So she was talking to everyone for about an hour about, um, you know, andRivetedng everyone's questions, super practical, helpful tips. And again, she said that as well. And, um, she said, don't. Be, you know, she's had people say, I don't want to read too much. Because or too much of my genre, because I don't want, you know, my ideas or whatever to be infiltrated by other people's ideas. Um, yeah, but like she said, that's, that's unlikely to happen. Uh, and you need to know what's out there and you need to know what's happening now in the industry, not just so you improve your writing. Cause I definitely feel like if I've gone through a period of time where I haven't been able to read, read for whatever reason, um, I. find it hard to get up the next morning. I just feel like it's all part of the process of the writing, reading helps you write. And, uh, yeah, so she was definitely like, it helps with your creativity and also reading, you know, in the genre that you're writing is also important. So you, if you, if you're intending on getting it published, just so you know what else is out there. And of course it helps with comparative titles, which we've spoken about a few times. So yes, that's a very good tip.

Madeleine:

Yeah. And it's interesting. I think you can, and depending on what stage you're at with your writing as well, I think certain books help you. For me, when I'm writing new words, I always seem to go to even like their nonfiction books. So Helen Garner's diaries, which I just love. And if I'm feel like I'm stuck, I just go to her and this Ali Parker, I think. Yeah. Previous episode was saying something similar. Um, I, I, I feel like her language is just so clean and beautiful. It helps me

Tina:

hmm.

Madeleine:

reset. And so she's kind of that, that author for me where I can, and then, then they're not even fiction. They're not historical fiction. It's just, it's just something I can use. So, um, yeah, so it's interesting. Do you have an author like that where you can just pick up something and it helps you

Tina:

Oh, not that I can think of at the moment, but I was just, I'm reading a book at the moment that, uh, do you ever, do you always push through your books, even if you're not enjoying it? Do you put them down? Are you a, it's too short, life's too short. I have to put this book down and keep and pick up something else. Or are you a push through because I've picked it up. Now I have to keep going.

Madeleine:

it's an interestingly timed question. I was talking to my husband about this very thing last week. Um, generally I will push through and finish it. Um, although more and more, um, I have, I think if I've passed 50%, I'll push through. If in the first few chapters, it's not grabbing me, I'll do not finish. And that's new for me. Cause I've always pushed through. What about you? Mm

Tina:

pusher through a rough. Um, I, yes, I do, I think I feel guilty. If I, I feel, I feel, when I feel guilty, I'm like, I'm sorry, author, for putting this down. I have, I have already bought it. So, you know, I've supported you there. But, and two, I, um, I feel like maybe it will change. Maybe it will get better. Um, it's like, I don't, I actually also don't like to pause songs in the middle of them either.

Madeleine:

You gotta finish it.

Tina:

And then I'll pause it. Oh,

Madeleine:

recently, I think, um, I was at a point of putting down a book because, you know, the things that, there's something that really bugs me in some books is where, uh, there wouldn't be a story if everyone just had a conversation with characters, just had conversations with each other. So, you know, it's, it's actually, this could be resolved. This issue could be resolved really simply if people would just. Yeah. And it felt that sort of feeling of when things are contrived, I think, and, and people are just not talking. And in reality, like if I hate it, when it's not mirroring reality, reality, people would just actually ask a question and say, Hey, you know, this is an issue. What do you think? And then there would be no story. So that, that really is a big bug there for me. Do you, do you have something?

Tina:

yeah, I agree, but I was just going to say on that, that's why I think historical fiction and not just historical fiction, but, um, I mean, someone, some may call it historical if it's set in the nineties, even like not like 1990, um, pre mobile phone. So my thing is, and I get why a lot. Of stories are set back then.'cause kind of, if you have a mobile phone, it's just like every single thing could be solved. You know, I had someone ask, you know, with my books that it's 11 year olds and they're like, well, wouldn't you just have a phone? And I'm like, well, no.'cause eleven's too young for a phone in, in my opinion. Um, and I'm like, but then where's the fun in that you can never get stuck and have to find your own way out. You, you never. Yeah, without, you know, a, a source of contact to get in contact to someone who can then come and help you, uh, you never have an answer to a, like a question that's gone unanswered because you can just Google it. Um, you know, it kind of, so I guess sometimes maybe writing for kids where it's, that's just before mobile phones is also, you know, a good thing. Um, like setting something pre mobile.

Madeleine:

or deliberately just having a something that removes that way of contacting for sure, but it's when they have that opportunity to have a device, they can go and do it. You're like, but why wouldn't they? So you

Tina:

So then you have to put it in there. But I was actually watching a show the other day and I was like, hang on, these guys are on their phones all the time. How come in this particular moment, they've chosen not to use their phone to like tell everybody that there's this bad thing happening and don't come here. So then the drama is, Oh, how do I stop everyone coming here? You know? And it feels a little bit forced or

Madeleine:

And that draws you out. Cause then you start going, hang on, why are they not doing that? And that's what happens with me. And as soon as that happens, I just lose it. Unfortunately, it's pretty hard to get me back in if there's some, I think I really like logic, you know, in a story and if something feels very illogical or contrived, I go, Oh, so, Hmm. Hmm.

Tina:

man.

Madeleine:

Now we did have a topic, weren't we, that we were going to discuss today

Tina:

Yes. Yes. We were going to talk about,

Madeleine:

ready to submit

Tina:

yeah, knowing when to submit

Madeleine:

Hmm.

Tina:

you could tinker or you could, there's, there's a couple of things you can do that people do do is submit way too early, way too early, or submit or just take forever tinkering that you never want ever submitted. So yeah, what's the, what's the, yeah, that the golden moment of sending it in? Is there one? Um, how polished does it need to be? I don't know. When did you know Madeleine went to start sending your manuscript off?

Madeleine:

Yeah. It's a, it's a really interesting one. So, um, with the butterfly women, I had done about 11 or 12 read throughs by the time I felt ready. And so that's 11 and 12

Tina:

Yes. I was going to say, so you're changing things each time, and then having another read through. Yeah, okay.

Madeleine:

Yes. And I felt, so that took a few months to

Tina:

Mm hmm.

Madeleine:

Uh, I think. I think that was good. It was in pretty good Polish shape. I also did a lot of the audio listen throughs as well. So I had that, I had, you know, that read through, um, it helped me reading aloud. So I did one of those edits as well, just to pick up anything I wanted. I wanted it to be in the best possible state with very, very minimal errors. Um, and so I was probably, probably a bit perfectionist, but I think. Because when you're a debut, first time submitting, getting it into that best publishable standard is really important. If there's a series of errors, grammatical errors in the first chapter, then what publisher is going to continue and read on. So I made it really clear. Um, I didn't probably change too much of the structure of it. I was just making it really tight. Um, at that point, because I couldn't see any structural issues at that point. I hadn't been through a structural edit. I think going into the next one, I, yeah, I, I can sort of, I think I can approach this a bit more differently with structure. So I kind of understand now what, what it means. Cause I had no real parts and Ruby's like, Oh, it's helpful if you put it into part one, two, and three, and then you can see sort of, you know, the different arcs in those parts. I was like, Oh, that's interesting. I didn't really think about it like that. Okay. Um, so, um, yeah, I was, I was really, um, exhausted by the end when I feel exhausted by it, when I'm so tired, I've been editing for so much, so long that I feel like I'm ready. But interestingly, yeah, for the second book, I probably didn't. Do as many read throughs or edits, um, but at least five, I think until, and I got a couple of readers. Are there other things where I get people to read it, people trusted, trusted people to read it as well, and I'll incorporate their advice. So that's separate to the edits. I'll do that after I have done maybe two or three read throughs and edits, send it off to some people, wait for their feedback, incorporate that in, and then do the subsequent 11 edits. So it's a, it's a lot. I think that's a lot, isn't it?

Tina:

Um, yeah, that's a lot, but I agree with you, Madeleine, and I couldn't even tell you how many I did. Thank you.

Madeleine:

Mm. Mm.

Tina:

on any of the stuff that I worked on. And so, um, it, it's a lot, but I definitely agree that when you are a debut or you're an unknown, so you're an emerging author and, um, that the publishers don't know you at all, and they have hundreds of manuscripts coming over their desk, probably every week, you need to stand out. You really do. And, um, so having, Even if it just looks or appears as they're reading through it, like it's polished, like you're someone who takes it seriously.

Madeleine:

Mm hmm.

Tina:

Uh, like everyone, there's always going to be typos. There's just always going to be typos. There's, there's going to be typos in the books that. actually published because you just can't see anymore. Um, but it does, you know, the, as less as possible, and they're not going to not sign someone on a couple of typos,

Madeleine:

No.

Tina:

but there's so much more that doing 12 read throughs will show you and pick up. And, and like you said, just make it really tight.

Madeleine:

Mm hmm.

Tina:

And that is That's, that is really important. Um, but yeah, it is a bit of a tricky one, isn't it? Because it's hard, it's hard to advise, I suppose, on it. Also because you know, so many people that have, like you said, you're doing those edits after you're happy with the structure

Madeleine:

Mm hmm. Mm

Tina:

so many people who send it away and then assigned, but their structure is quite hugely changed

Madeleine:

Well, that's me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tina:

So.

Madeleine:

You break it and you have to rewrite. So all those words that you've You painstakingly spent months editing, you delete.

Tina:

yes. So, so you have to imagine there's only, like, there's only so much you can do. And I believe with the structure, what you have in your mind is it is hard for you to see outside of that once

Madeleine:

Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Tina:

but clearly then you've, it's gone to the publisher, they've gone, we can see, she can write, we can see she's clean and she's taking this seriously. Um, and it's as tight as possible, but we're still taking it on even though we feel like there's some, are you're saying big structural changes? I don't, I don't, I don't know. Like for some people that have to change the full ending of their stories or, or a lot of things, but they love the premise. Um, so it's hard to say you need to make sure everything is a hundred percent perfect when a lot of, a lot of it can

Madeleine:

That's right. No, you're so right, Tina. You are. And so, I mean, I had major structural changes in mind because, and Affirm never pushed me to do it. They said, you can go down the hard path, which will make it better, or you can go down the easy path, which will be less change. might not be as good. And so I chose the hard path, of course, as everyone would do. You want your work to be the best it can be. Um, so, uh, yeah, I think maybe that's why for this second book, I did less read throughs. I was less fastidious because I just knew things are going to change about the book. I, I've probably deleted 30, 000 words of, um, at least of the old draft, the first draft that I call that the first draft, the one that Affirm signed. And, you know, those are words that you have spent, you have agonized over. And so is it worth worthwhile agonizing over words when Yeah. Make it as clean as you can. It's not going to be perfect. Like you said, but just know in the back of your mind that this might all go in the bin. And it was, I don't see it as going in the bin. I'd say it as part of forming the story.

Tina:

It 100%. It is. It's.

Madeleine:

did you, did you find that?

Tina:

there. Yeah. Um, so

Madeleine:

maybe approaching submission time? Like when did you feel ready?

Tina:

Well, I never really submitted to

Madeleine:

Oh, that's right, you

Tina:

I, I entered to it. No, no, no. I mean, I still had to do all the things, but I submitted to a competition, which I know now, uh, when it's a competition where you have a publisher judging it, you are still submitting, like you are sending it with, you know, and you're putting yourself out there and that publisher may be someone you want to publish with in the future. Um, so, and you still, and especially with that manuscript, you only get one chance with that publisher, with that one manuscript. And look, I know people can go and change things heavily and send them back. I think it very rarely happens that they You know, want to read something that they've already seen, even if it's hugely changed. I mean, I can't speak for them, but that's what I've heard them say. A couple of publishers say, but, um, so I submitted to a competition very, I was very green and it wasn't even my intent really to do that. I just stumbled across this competition and entered it.

Madeleine:

Which one was it,

Tina:

That was the CYA conference, which everyone hears me talk about because I, I, I love it very much. Um, and it's very important conference for children, um, and yeah, children's authors, and I have an adult section now as well. Um, so, And I didn't, you don't know who the judges are either. So they don't tell you that. So, and I couldn't even my wildest dreams have imagined it was someone from HarperCollins. I just, I was so new to the whole thing. I know I'd always been writing, like it's just what I was doing. So, but before I sent that. Which is essentially pitching to a publisher, which I didn't realize at the time, I think I had been working on it probably, you know, for a year or so. And I was just at that stage where I was just, you know, changing commas and, you know, sentences and splitting a paragraph

Madeleine:

Mm hmm.

Tina:

that sort of. You know, noodling about, um, and yeah. So I think when I saw this, uh, competition, I was like, Oh, maybe that's what I need. Like, what do I do with it now? Like I've got this manuscript, maybe I just find out if it's any good, uh, by sending it to this competition. So. So yeah, uh, I mean that one wasn't signed, so.

Madeleine:

Mm. Mm. Mm hmm. You, you never considered slush piles. Did you know that?

Tina:

Ah, no, I never, I, being published was so far like just a dream. No, it wasn't even a dream because I didn't even think that it would be possible. So I wouldn't, I didn't even dream about it, you know, and I'd written forever. You know, I just did it all the time. It was just something that I did. But you know, I, again, I think they see the premise and they see what's going on. what you're like as an author or and as a person to work with and all of that's taken into consideration. Um, so

Madeleine:

the whole package, isn't it?

Tina:

Yeah.

Madeleine:

they're looking for, I think, yes. So you've gotta try and strike that balance. That's what it sounds like.

Tina:

yes, I think I, I guess overarchingly it's just try and do the best you can try and perfect the easier stuff that's in your control, which is the editing, the typos, the making it look professional, um, Your structure, if that's not what they're looking for, which is often, you know, it's still probably going to be a very good story, but the publisher, you know, I don't know, maybe one of the big reasons why there's structural edits is because they, they see another way that they would like it to be because, because of various things, maybe it's a market, or maybe it's a gap that they need filled or, or whatever. You can't control that. You don't, cause you don't know what they're thinking. So all you can do is go, I'm a hundred percent. happy with this structure. Obviously, if you think there's something's not right, definitely don't send it. Keep working on that until you fix that thing. That's not right. Even if it feels impossible because you would always find a way eventually to fix it so that you're happy with it. And then the typos that you're happy with and put that forward. But yeah, don't waste time with, um, tinkering around with commas and stuff for, for too long.

Madeleine:

maybe a good strategy to test and see if there's, if, if, if it's right and ready is just to submit to maybe a couple of competitions or, or submit to a couple of publishers or agents, not everybody at once, because

Tina:

not everybody all at once. that's a big tip. That's top tip for today as well.

Madeleine:

Yes, not

Tina:

send it to everybody all at once. Definitely not. And I know it's a long time, right? Isn't it? Because a lot of them say, if you don't hear anything in three months after you've submitted, then you can expect that it's a no. So, If you send it to one and you want to wait for them, that's, you can't send it to any, anywhere else for another three months, really. I mean, you can, but if they then come back and go, there's this, this and this wrong, and you're lucky enough to get some feedback. Then you've already kind of blown that chance with the other

Madeleine:

That's right. Or if it's just a rejection and no feedback, maybe there's a, you know, something that you can continue working on. Maybe you can send it out to get a manuscript assessment to see You know, it does involve financial costs, but there are other services that you can do as well. You can, there's lots of things in the ASA as well to help your Australian Society of Authors. Um, but I think, yeah, testing, testing the markets really important initially. That's something I didn't know really about, uh, and something subsequently I've learned. And I think after our, um, Our conversation with Samuel Bernard as well, our literary agent episode, he sort of said that you do often only get that one chance. If you get a second chance, you're very lucky. It means that they've shown interest in parts of the work, but you often only do get the one. I think the other thing that I've learned too, which I didn't really think about back then is that sending it off to agents is actually a good way to test it. Because at least then you haven't blown your chance with the publishers, so you can test it with agents. If no one's biting, then you can send it out to

Tina:

Yes. And I wonder, do you think agents might be more open to seeing your work, seeing who you are and going like, I think I can work with this person. This is what I feel is being, um, sought after in the industry at the moment. So how about, you know, here's some suggestions. Can you write something along those lines and submit or, um, and you haven't blown your chances with them. They can give you some guidance, can't they? Absolutely.

Madeleine:

And I think if people are listening to this and, um, thinking, Oh, but there's such long waiting times in the publishing industry. I really want to get my book out as soon as possible. Cause I think I want to reach it. Yeah. Publishing is such a industry. Don't expect. Anything out the years and years. So there's always going to be super long lead times in publishing. I mean, Tina, you've been waiting for a couple of years, haven't you

Tina:

I have. And that's, that's another really good tip. I don't know if I've done this one before. I'm doing a double tip episode. Um, patience.

Madeleine:

Yes.

Tina:

It's very hard. I don't, I'm not super skilled at having patience, but I've definitely realized, I mean, you have to have patience because there's industry is quite, um, you know, slow, but there's reason for it. You know, now that we're in, in it, Madeleine, I don't know about you, but I see why absolutely see why with all the people that work on it and the teams that work on it, the work that goes into the books coming out, absolutely makes sense. A

Madeleine:

That's right.

Tina:

takes that long, but patience in, you know, when you're not even there yet, and you haven't even signed is really hard, but, you know, I guess You just have to, the time is passing anyway, right? You might as well just submit, see how it goes, start something else, work on building your career, work on, you know, getting out there and making contacts because it's all useful.

Madeleine:

a podcast.

Tina:

Start a podcast. That might be me being impatient actually, cause I'm like, Oh, what else can I do? But yeah, patience is really big. And I've learned that recently, even just with. yeah, what I should start writing a, you know, work on next, um, and having all these ideas and wanting to get them all out on the page and, um, yeah, just really having to take a step back and go, no, you just actually need patience and you just need to relax and things will happen when they happen

Madeleine:

Exactly.

Tina:

only do so much.

Madeleine:

feel like I've learned that in the last year. This is, that's been my, yeah. Learning lesson last year. And I have been so grateful for the time as well that I've had between signing and publishing the novel. I think it, I feel like I've grown more if it was a shorter timeframe. I think I would have. Probably struggled, but this has been really, really helpful for me to build connections, like you said, and, and do some different things for your career. So, um,

Tina:

Yeah, when you sign that contract and it says, you know, release date 2025, and you're just like, wow, that is never going to happen. there is one really good way that you can help authors, which a lot of people don't realize it and it's by pre ordering someone's book because, uh, all the pre orders before that date go towards the first week of sales. That's right. Isn't it, Madeleine? You're the bookseller. Uh, which is super important. And your first week of sales is, um, is hugely important to

Madeleine:

But not only the first week of sales as well, Tina actually tells the bookshop that, Oh, there's a bit of interest in this book. So it's Say five people have pre ordered it, maybe we'll order an extra five copies for the shelf as well. So that way they're sort of doubling it. So they're, they're doing those extra orders. They're not just ordering a stock for pre orders. They're ordering additional for the floor as well.

Tina:

Okay. All right. Inside tips there, everybody. Um, so yeah, so, so whenever you see someone's, um, book up for pre order, it's hugely important for them. Um, if you're interested in purchasing it. Give it a pre order, that's always definitely beneficial. I was so excited about supporting the Debut Crew 2025 that, oh sorry 2024, I'm sure I'm going to do the same with 2025, but the Debut Crew 2024, I got so excited about supporting them that sometimes I multiple ordered pre ordered books, or I'd pre order books and then see them on the shelf. And before I'd get the book, I'd be like super excited to buy it. And then it would come in the mail like a couple of days later, the same one. But that's been good for gifting Well, should we leave it there, Madeleine?

Madeleine:

I think that's enough. Yeah. We've spoken enough.

Tina:

We did. We also did have an agenda as well. And of course, I think we only touched on one point, but that's okay. It was a great, it was a great chat.