The Book Deal
Motivation and inspiration for emerging writers, helping them pave their own pathway to publishing success.
The Book Deal
The Publishing Deal: Publisher Ruby Ashby-Orr
In this episode of the Book Deal Podcast, hosts Madeleine Cleary and Tina Strachan talk with Ruby Ashby-Orr, publisher at Affirm Press. The discussion covers topics such as Tina's upcoming book release, the importance of pre-orders, strategies for making a compelling book pitch, and insights into the acquisitions process within publishing houses. Ruby shares her journey in publishing, the types of books she finds appealing, and offers practical advice for emerging writers on how to perfect their manuscripts and navigate rejections. The episode provides a deep dive into the collaborative aspects of editing and the intricacies of launching a debut novel.
00:00 Welcome to the Book Deal Podcast
00:40 Exciting News from Tina Strachan
03:23 Meet Ruby Ashby Orr
06:08 Tips for Perfecting Your Pitch
08:09 The Importance of Query Letters
12:54 The Role of Pitch Events
17:31 Ruby's Journey in Publishing
21:33 Understanding the Publishing Landscape
25:35 Advice for Aspiring Authors
27:27 Mastering Manuscript Evaluation
29:35 The Importance of a Synopsis
32:48 Common Mistakes Leading to Rejection
35:17 What Publishers Are Looking For
38:44 The Collaborative Editing Process
47:10 Understanding the Acquisitions Process
51:40 Top Tips for Emerging Writers
53:01 Final Thoughts and Encouragement
Links mentioned in this episode:
Neeka and the Missing Key by Tina Strachan preorder
Ruby Ashby-Orr
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This is the Book Deal podcast, a podcast all about inspiring and motivating writers.
Madeleine:Where we interview seasoned and debut authors about their own writing, from the blank page to the book deal and beyond.
Tina:We hope these stories will help you to stay positive, focused and carve your own path forward. I'm Madeline Cleary. And I'm Tina Strachan. And this is the Book Deal Podcast.
Madeleine:The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters which it's recorded on, and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging. We're just going to quickly jump in. We know that this is a very exciting episode with Ruby Ashby, or the, uh, publisher at Affirm Press. Um, but just quickly, Tina has something very exciting.
Tina:I do have some really exciting news, Madeline, uh, that my book that comes out next year, book one of the WilderZoo series, which is called Neeka and the Missing Key, is now available for pre order. Oh, very exciting. So you can pre order it in many places. Uh, if you just type it in into Google, you'll, it'll all pop up HarperCollins, um, website or, um, yeah, all the best places that you can order books. It's, um, you can get it in paperback. Or you can get an e book if your kids are into the e books, um, and also very excitingly, it will be available also as an audio book. Yeah, it's so good. And so, you know, those long car rides, um, you know, on the weekends or during the school holidays, uh, you can listen to the book then. it's all about animals. It's all about adventure, um, family, friendship. Um, yeah, perfect. There's so many kids that love animals. And there's, I've made sure I've packed lots of animals in there. So that's book one. And then, um, but next Christmas you could get book two, uh, book three, actually. So it'll all be done. You have a whole series for next Christmas, but, um, yeah, so for now, uh, pre order, and we've spoken before about the importance of pre orders, haven't we, Madeline?
Madeleine:We have, we've touched on it. So let's just remind listeners. So pre orders are so, so crucial for authors because it counts to our first week of sales, which generates some hype, which is really, really, really good for our books. So, um, yeah, please do call up your local bookshop. Just pop it on pre order. It signals to them that this book is exciting and that they might order some extra copies for the shop as well. So, um, yes, pre orders are great. Um, you can also, there's so many different ways. There's Booktopia, there's Amazon, but it's always great just to call up your local independent bookshop as well.
Tina:Or pop in when you're doing your Christmas shopping. That's right. Exactly. I've got it. They're very busy at the moment, booksellers. Anyway, we just wanted to pop in and tell you that exciting news. And, um, I hope you'll enjoy it and it will be hopefully on, is it on your website as well for more details? It will be. What's your website? That's my to do list. So yeah, you can just, uh, uh, Google my name. It's www. tinastrachan. com. Now everyone, that's a tricky last name, S T R A C H A N, um, uh, dot com. You can find it there. Thank you.
Madeleine:And we're going
Tina:to put links
Madeleine:in the show notes too. I'm going to go pre order it in multiple different places. Thanks, Tina. So excited. Ruby Ashby Orr is a publisher in the general list at Affirm Press and works remotely from Launceston. She began her publishing career in 2013 and has since worked on a wide range of books, including novels by Christian White, Anna Downs, and Pip Williams, and memoirs by Dennis Lilly and Kevin Sheedy. Ruby is also my publisher, and from the moment we first chatted about my debut novel, The Butterfly Women, I knew she would be the perfect person to help me bring it into the world. I know several of Ruby's other authors, and I can attest that she is universally adored by all, for her intelligence and kindness. Tina and I were so lucky to take some time out of Ruby's busy calendar to discuss how to perfect your pitch, insights into the publishing industry, and things you can do to get a publisher's attention. I'd suggest taking notes for this one.
Tina:We are so excited to have you here. Um, we, I've heard a lot about you and the reason being, um, is, and lots of really great things, of course, but you are actually Madeline's publisher.
Ruby:Yeah, very exciting for me. Um, we've got Madeline's debut novel coming out. It's called The Butterfly Women. It's out in May. Oh, Ruby, you're already pitching me. I love it. Always, at all times, I'm here for you. Uh, but absolutely, it is a really, really stunning historical novel, which is one of my favorite genres as well. And we're already talking, uh, big in the team about Madeline and about the book. So if you haven't, I'm sure if you listen to the podcast, you're probably already across it, but if not, you'll be hearing about it very soon.
Madeleine:Oh, isn't Ruby the best? She's so exciting. I just need to like rerecord and listen to that. I think, and just, you know, Repeat that. Um, so I remember, uh, we had this summer launch party, uh, in with a fam, I think at the start of the year, Ruby, and you were so good because we were sort of talking with booksellers and other people in the industry. And you did this great pitch to this bookseller. And I was like, Oh, I just need to remember everything you just said, because you're so, so good at it. It's like, you've been, it's like you've done this before.
Ruby:That's very kind of you, but you would have come across a lot of pitches and probably a lot of pitches that aren't super, uh, exciting. So I'm also quite conscious that I have to do a decent job pitching your book because you would have had so many like lackluster pitches when you were a bookseller. And I know that makes a massive difference because if you don't get the booksellers on board, then. You're pretty much done. It's such a part of the publishing process. It's true. Short and sharp.
Madeleine:I think that's, that's, that was the, we've already hit a top tip, I think, Tina. I know. I was going to say, well, we're going to talk about pitches. Yeah. So on pitches then, Ruby, we were going to talk about that, so we may as well talk about it now. What makes a good pitch to you, particularly those who are perhaps unpublished and looking to get published? Yeah.
Ruby:Uh, it's, I mean, short is actually a really good thing to keep in mind, even if it's, it's never going to be a full pitch, but having a short version that, you know, how to just put out there that just touches on the most interesting aspects of, Your book is helpful because people switch off so fast. Publishers are getting so many pitches. They're looking for points of difference. They're looking for what they'll be able to translate to the booksellers who are getting even more pitches than the publisher is. So something quick and immediately interesting. In your back pocket is very, very helpful. Um, the broader pitch that, you know, again, you don't want to be going super long and detailed into things, but it's useful if you do a bit of our work for us. Um, for instance, if you are able to come up with some comparison titles, if you can talk about, you know, where it would sit in a bookshop, um, if you can talk about Even how you picture the cover, things like that can be quite helpful because we start getting an image in our head and we think, okay, I can see how this is going to fit in the market. I can see how this is going to get out there. I mean, it's, it's a tough thing for a writer to do. And I'm really conscious of that because we're that horrible, you know, intersection of art and commerce sort of spot. So something that, you know, is beautiful and important and true has turned into a product that can go on a shelf and have a price sticker on it. And We're kind of the first point for that process to start, and that's really tough, but authors who are able to think about it in those terms have taken a really helpful first step, I think, for their whole publishing process.
Tina:So is that something, Ruby, that you suggest people put in a query letter?
Ruby:Yeah. So if you're querying, um, so let's say you've got a one page letter, if you can mention sort of a really short summary of what the book's about, what it's similar to, um, what it, you know, what its genre is. That's the main thing. Um, if you know a little bit about the publisher and have a sense of why you want them to be your publisher, that's also quite helpful if you can let them know that, uh, for instance, if they've published similar books to yours that you really enjoyed, or if they're. If there's some other aspect of their particular kind of publishing that you really appreciate, then it can be helpful because some, some authors understandably might send out just a basic letter. That's the same every single time, but awareness of the publisher as a specific publisher can be quite helpful as well.
Madeleine:Yeah. It just shows doing your research. Like the author has done their research as well, and is invested and understands the market. I think it's, it's really important. And, you know, authors and writers, they can just go to bookshops and sort of work out where, where would my book fit and have a look at some of the titles around it.
Ruby:And think about the books that influenced you. I mean, think about the books that influenced you, find the publishers that published those. That's often a really great first step. and see if that's somewhere that you can get in touch with or ideally place your book with.
Tina:I've heard before as well, um, Ruby, that sometimes it's really beneficial if you've met a publisher before, um, either at a conference or through an assessment or like a pitch party, or even if you've just seen them talk at, at a conference or a festival, um, It's sometimes it's good to put that in your query letter too. So you're sort of making it personal personalized.
Madeleine:Yeah.
Tina:Just like I met you at, through this, you know, uh, assessment once upon a time, and you said you were interested in this. So I'm sending you my thing that's like this. Is that, is that something that
Ruby:does happen? I know that that's really rare for a lot of people, but that is a great, great idea. And I think doing things like what Madeline, what you did as far as going to those pitching events and putting the face to the concept, it is hugely helpful. It gives you much more chance of getting noticed than being just a name in the inbox of their general submissions, which. Is very rarely being looked at by like the person that you want it to be looked by it's every publisher does it differently, but general submissions will often have, you know, junior staff filtering through it, or it will be split up between different staff members. So you kind of don't know who's going to get to it. And if you've got a really good sense that this person is going to love your book, better work you can do to get directly to them. you know, the more helpful that will be in, uh, getting their attention and getting their attention held long enough to consider signing you.
Madeleine:And that goes down again to doing, doing your research as well, looking at what publishers might my work be best suited towards. And, um, certainly that was something that I did before pitching to you at the Australian Society of Authors Literary Speed Dating, which I think I just counted was 21 months ago. So 2023, can you believe that? Like I just, Feels like time's gone so quickly. Um, but certainly I Googled you a lot and listened to some of your interviews, Ruby, just to get a sense of you and your vibe. And I was like, Oh no, I think she'll like 19th century historical fiction. Like, I think this is good.
Ruby:All right. Terrifying. Um, you've terrified me twice. You terrified me with, um, telling me that you've researched me and you've terrified me by telling me that, uh, a firm press debut authors. Have their own WhatsApp group where they talk about us behind our backs. I've told everybody and we're like, we've all just had this horror response. When we're not, we're accepting it, but we feel deeply uncomfortable. I just hope you know that
Madeleine:you're not supposed to tell her that Madeline. I know I did. I was like, By the way, we have this thing and it's like a union, but no, we love, we love Affirm Press. Affirm Press is the best publisher ever. That's definitely everything that we discussed on the group.
Ruby:That's why I insist on
Madeleine:hearing. Oh, I love it. No, we've got a really good community. I think in the Affirm Press group, like we've got a really, um, great group of authors there. So you've put me on the spot there, Ruby. I like that.
Tina:I'm going to move it away from that because Madeline's blushing now. Can you, you just mentioned about the pitch event and I don't think we've really spoken much about that. And, um, uh, Madeline, you've told me a little bit about it, but it's not something that I've come across on my publishing journey. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Ruby:Yeah, it's run by the Australian Society of Authors. Um, they've been doing it for a while now. So the first one I did was actually in person, like in the old days in a room. And I had one author after, after another sitting before me and some of them brought props. It was very exciting. And they would have to pitch. In, I think it's three minutes, is that right, Madeline? Yeah. It's three minutes. Not long. And then they sort of hop, it's not long at all, hop to the next person. Uh, but I've been doing that on Zoom, the current version for the last few years, and I find it really helpful. Um, I found a few books through it over the years and it is that really intensive process and I believe, um, ASA really help you to develop your pitch. Madeleine. Yeah.
Madeleine:So you can do a pitch perfect course with the ASA in the lead up to literary speed dating, which I'd highly recommend to everyone. It gives you a bit of a structure about how to approach the pitch, which I think is helpful because three minutes is not long. And if you're starting to waffle and not hit the key points, like the comparison titles, like the reasons why this book would be well suited to the publisher, it's probably not going to be, it doesn't matter how good your work is. It's got to hit some of those key points.
Ruby:Like we were talking about earlier, when you have someone sitting in front of you and they're a human and they're talking about their book, it is that much more likely to get your attention because, I mean, that's just the basic art of conversation is. People look you in the eye, you get a sense of them as a person, you care more about their story. So it's quite clever and I think quite an effective way to, um, get authors and publishers together. And now that that's doable through zoom, it also means that it's nationally, you know, you can. Get in touch with publishers that in the past would have been quite hard to get in touch with face to face unless you were in the same area doing the same sort of going to the same literary events in the same book launches and that sort of thing.
Madeleine:Are you just looking at the work itself in during those pitches or because you talked about the story behind the story or so looking into that too? Um,
Ruby:Definitely looking at the story behind the story and also getting a sense of whether the author can pitch their book in a way that would work with media. It's one of the things we have to be aware of is that there will be a marketing and publicity campaign down the track, and we want the author to be able to do that effectively, to perform, to speak confidently. They don't have to be, you know, an absolute celebrity style talker, but they do need to be able to speak cohesively and confidently about their book. So we're keeping an eye on that. The story behind the story, as you say, is really useful. Publicity can be hard, especially for debuts. So having some kind of book that's really interesting that we think could make good radio is really, really handy for that sort of We'll be keeping an eye out
Tina:for that. I do have one very quick question. I think it's a yes or no one. Ruby, I think I already know the answer. Props in a pitch, yes or no?
Ruby:It's actually not a yes or no answer. Depends on how funny you are. Okay. What's the best prop you've seen used? You know what? I can't think of many off the top of my head. I just, I can imagine that somebody, cause I don't want to embarrass anybody who might be listening. Cause I've seen some ones where I was like, Oh, uh, but I do imagine that you could bring something out for the right kind of book and make it interesting or funny. So I don't want to completely say no to props. But I think you'd have to be a little bit tongue in cheek doing it, is all I would suggest.
Madeleine:I've seen Tina bring out a prop before, but a live, a live prop too.
Ruby:See, that is a great idea. I think I could be in for that. A live
Tina:prop, that sounds Oh, yeah. Is it a tiny person? It was a possum. That would catch my attention. Yeah. Oh, good. Cause that's what I used for my bookseller video, um, for context, obviously, if you don't know, my, my book is about a girl who lives in a zoo. So it was relevant.
Ruby:Perfect. I think the perfect prop, I think you nailed it. So props are okay. As long as it's something like that,
Tina:I didn't even consider that I'd done that actually. And that was a prop. Okay. Good. Okay. Okay. So taking a step back. Um, so Ruby, tell us, we want to know a little bit about yourself and, um, we, I heard that you've recently been promoted to the role of publisher in a firm. So congratulations for that. Uh, so from the outside publishing and the whole industry just sounds extremely dreamy. Can you tell us, was this a dream of yours? Is this where you always wanted to be?
Ruby:It was always something in my head as a possibility because I think like many of us, I was a bookie kind of kid. I read a lot. I wanted to be a writer, maybe. I also, you know, at various points wanted to be a ballet dancer and an astronaut and a, uh, artist. So I can't say that it was like my always dream, but I was going in the direction of writing. I did a, um, a degree, an arts degree with literature as my major and thought that's not terribly practical. I have no idea what I'm going to do with this. So maybe I could try publishing. Um, and then when it came time, I got a chance to go do some post grad work. Um, a postgrad degree in creative writing, publishing, and editing. And I was at the time as interested in the creative writing as the publishing and editing, but then when I was looking more into the editorial classes and those sorts of things, I just enjoyed it. I got a lot out of it. I liked the practicality of it. So I got an internship as part of that course and kind of stayed in publishing forever, stayed at Affirm Press in publishing.
Madeleine:And you were one of the Founding sort of, you were an intern, weren't you, with Martin and Kieran at the initial stages of the firm?
Ruby:Yeah, so our owners, our former owners, um, they've just sold the company. So this is a big process, but about 10 years ago, uh, Kieran Rogers and Martin Hughes kind of, took a firm press already existed, but it was a bit of a hobby kind of publisher with Martin Hughes doing most of the work, about three books a year. So about 10, 11 years ago, Kieran hopped on board. He's extremely experienced sales director, um, really understands the sales side of publishing and they Made it into this great, big, significant local publisher. And I started off as an intern at the same time, and then just kind of stuck around, like wedging myself into it. So they couldn't get rid of me.
Madeleine:And you must love it then Ruby, 10 years later, and you're now a publisher. Can you talk a little bit about. YFM is a little bit different, I suppose, to other publishers and a bit about your, your role or the roles that you've done.
Ruby:So it's actually hard for me to say how it's different to other publishers, partly because I've never worked at any other publishers. So I'm almost learning that a little bit now. Um, but there's obviously a big difference between. independent publishers in Australia and the big internationals. So Affirm Press has always been an independent local publisher, um, which tends to mean we, you know, we have a very big focus on Australian books. We've historically also had a big focus on, um, Books that are sort of socially positive, if that's a phrase. I don't know if it is, but we'll, we'll take it. Um, we were originally part owned by Graham Wise who, uh, brought the Body Shop to Australia and he's always been really interested in sort of ethical business. And so Firm Press was part of that. A lot of what we were focused on doing was we'd publish really good, Strachan books in a wide range of genres, but it was important to us that they were positive contributions to the world, to the literary landscape. All those sorts of things. So that's very much a part of why so many of us in the team got into publishing, and I think it's guided a lot of what we've done. But we're also very, um, I'd like to think we're reasonably savvy as far as the business side of things and want to make big successes. So, uh, we've managed to make those two aspects of the business work pretty well, I think. And that's been really nice and really satisfying over the years.
Madeleine:So, so we've got, so in terms of the publishing landscape, because this is, might be fairly new to a lot of, um, our listeners. So you've got. You mentioned the independent publishers, which are, some of them are local, and, uh, so there, so there's like the small publishers, small press, and I wouldn't say Affirm before it was at least acquired, was considered in a small press. Was it, is it sort of that mediums size because it grew quite
Ruby:quickly? Yeah. And so there are independent publishers that are reasonably big. Obviously Alan and UN are an independent publisher because they're Australian owned.
Madeleine:Mm-hmm
Ruby:Um, they're not owned by some bigger corporate. entity. Um, Hardy Grant, they're the other biggest, uh, independent Australian publisher, but then we also have the big multinationals. So our partner company now, Simon Schuster, uh, there's Hachette, Penguin Random House, they're kind of, and everyone will, most people I think will have come across those and might sort of see them on the, on their books that they've enjoyed. And Unless, I think unless you're really paying attention to the publishing industry, you might not realize where your book's being published, which is quite interesting. I think unless you're someone who's wanting to get published, uh, often most people I speak to have never heard of Affirm Press.
Madeleine:Um,
Ruby:and that's okay, but they might've heard of some of the books were published and that's quite exciting. So, whereas I think most people will have heard of the big internationals just because they're so prominent, those are really well known brands. Um, so that's kind of an interesting thing that I'm getting my head around at the moment is how it works differently when you have a big international publisher that you're working with and they have all these connections to offices in the UK and the U S and it's a whole different. Landscape to use that term again, so I'm going to be interested to see what it's like. I'm quite excited.
Tina:It's exciting. It's a big move. Yeah. Uh, Ruby, we were talking earlier about, uh, pitching and how to, a little bit about how to, um, perfect your pitch. So a firm, uh, are open for submissions on a regular basis. Uh, it used to be monthly. Is it still monthly for adults or has it gone to six monthly?
Ruby:Uh, it is monthly for now. Um, if that changes, we'll announce it. All right. Yes. I wasn't sure if it had gone to six monthly for kids. Uh, the kids, the kids have gone to six months. Yes. Okay. They've always had a real, you know, big, big path to get through, um, which we do too. But sometimes I think it can be a bit harder for them to get through their, um, submissions. Okay.
Tina:Well, that's interesting. So there's just a lot more submissions for kids. Books in general,
Ruby:or whether it's that, um, they also do have quite a full list, so they're probably not as. Um, kind of hunting for things quite as much, but
Madeleine:yeah, I've actually heard that before actually Ruby that, um, particularly for picture books as well. Like the list has been, and this is across multiple different publishers, um, people have been acquiring years in advance. So it's actually, if you do get, if you're lucky enough to get picked up. Your book might not be coming out for years because of delays with illustrators and all sorts of other things.
Ruby:Yeah, they work on much longer timelines than, than certainly our generalist, which is interesting. Um, and yeah, partly cause it's, they're so high production and the illustration process is such a big one. Um, and I don't know if it's also something to do with the fact that. Uh, they're less, there's less need in kids publishing to respond to things happening around them so much and trends, and they do have trends, but, um, certainly in picture books, for instance, it doesn't have to be as linked into global affairs and stuff like that as you would expect adult publishing to be.
Tina:Okay. That's interesting. And. So can you give us some advice, like we've spoken about, um, how to create our, our pictures and, you know, including a little bit about ourselves in there. What do you, can you, do you have any advice for people submitting, uh, through this process to affirm how can they make their submission stand out?
Ruby:So think about your book as a product. You know, again, sort of coming back to that, think about why someone who is not you or someone who loves you would want to read it and focus on that. Um, get that elevator pitch down quickly and make it the very first thing that a publisher will read when they're reading your submission and practice it. Like, be that person who wants to talk about their book at a dinner party, but see if you can do it in a way that makes the person that you're talking to actually genuinely interested. Um, it's, it's a bit of a process, but yeah, start to think about why this story might be interesting to someone who's never heard of you and has no knowledge of your history and your story. What, what's the most interesting part that's your hook, put it up front and build your pitch around that.
Madeleine:No, that's really good advice. I'm always so curious to know, how do you manage to balance your time? Because you've obviously been getting, you're getting pitches through the submissions portal. You're getting. Yeah. Pitches done outside through things like literary speed dating, but you've also got your current list that you're trying to work through an editorial. You've got big main meetings, you've got sales, you've got all sorts. Like how do you, and reading a book, particularly if it's an adult fiction as well, you're looking at 80, 90, 000 words, like these things take time. How do, how do you balance all that? Oh, badly, really
Ruby:badly. No, look, you just make it happen. Um, you become more efficient at reading and also more efficient at Reading the start of something and going, you know, this one's not for me, um, and figuring out which ones you're willing to take the risk of missing some gold and being like, look, it's just not there. I'm going to put that aside and turn to something that's interesting me more. Um, But yeah, it just takes practice. It takes practice to recognize what will work in the market, um, to spot aspects of writing that maybe are signals that the rest of the book is not going to work out. It's just takes years and years of reading lots of, lots of manuscripts really. Um, and then as far as balancing it with the other work, again, you know, experience helps spending time doing structural edits, knowing what to look for and knowing how to, you know, Uh, come up with solutions and, uh, the most efficient solutions, all that sort of stuff
Madeleine:just
Ruby:comes with practice and slowly you can find you can do more than you maybe would have thought of at the beginning.
Madeleine:So that's actually a really interesting thing. Do you, and I think really important for, um, people who are submitting, do you read the full manuscript if it comes to you at, it might've gone through a triage perhaps before it gets to your desk, but do you read the full thing? Or do you just, when you get a sense of the book, and if it's a, are you, do you hit a point where it's a yes, no?
Ruby:Uh, there's always a yes, no point, but it could come at any stage in the reading. Sometimes you have to read through to the end to realize that it's not working out, and that can be really disappointing. Um, I, you know, and you can sort of figure out how to read quite quickly, uh, when you've got a sense of the book as a whole and see where it's headed. Um, if I was serious about acquiring a book, I would read the whole thing, of course. And that's kind of essential because That's my first structural read as well. You know, if I do manage to acquire the book, then I want to be able to get straight into as much as possible, giving them structural feedback so that they can get the next draft going. So that's how I would look at that. Um, but often, you know, uh, with general submissions, we only ask people to send the first three chapters because often you'll know from the first three chapters in a detailed synopsis, Oh, here's, A big one. If your book has a twist or something exciting in it, put it in the synopsis. Don't hold off. Don't try to keep a secret because if it's the thing that makes your book really amazing to read, we're not going to believe you unless you, you let us know ahead of time. I'm not going to, you can't just say, it's got a great twist. Tell us what the twist is. And if it really is great, we'll go, Ooh, and you know, I, I just had this recently we were, um, looking at, we have a mentorship with Veruna where people submit. Drafts and works in progress in the crime thriller and mystery genre. And one of those submissions, which, um, it's fantastic. I won't go into it too much, had really Strachan three first chapters. I was like, Oh, this is pretty good. But then I read the synopsis and saw the twist. It's like done. I want this in it's fantastic. So it's worth doing.
Tina:Which we, um, touched on that, uh, just in our last chat, didn't we Madeline about synopsis, we were trying to give some tips on synopsis. So that's been really helpful. And yes, just to echo the point of making sure you put everything in your synopsis. It's not like the back of the book where you're trying to keep a little, some stuff secret. It's about showing the ending. And especially if you've got twists in there, of course.
Ruby:And when you think about synopsis is different to a blurb, uh, we'll want you to submit a blurb to submit because the blurb is essentially a pitch, right? That's why is this book interesting? Why would someone browsing want to read it? A synopsis is more of a, it's like, It's more of a functional thing. It's to let the publisher who you're hoping will work with you on the book know all the details. So you just want it to be really clear and quite straightforward. Um, so use all your salesy flashy language for the pitch, for the blurb, and just be really straightforward and clear in your synopsis. Uh, that's extremely helpful if you can do that.
Madeleine:That's a great tip. Do you read the synopsis first before you read those three chapters?
Ruby:No, not generally. Um, generally I'll start with the three chapters, get a sense if they're a writer who seems like they know what they're doing. Uh, sometimes I only need to read, Three paragraphs. Sometimes, sometimes I get to the end of the three chapters and I think, oh, there's something going on here. I don't know if it can sustain the whole thing. And then I'll read the synopsis and that will help me make the call on the next step.
Madeleine:Okay. So first three paragraphs are key, everybody.
Ruby:No, that's only if it's like someone who's really just starting to learn their We get a really wide range of submissions. It's actually amazing. So, and I kind of love that, you know, you get to see people at all levels of writing and, you know, sometimes you do get submissions that, uh, clearly someone who's just started writing and, you know, you can tell pretty quickly they're not ready, but, um, It's, we get every single level of writer coming through our, um, general submissions, which is why it takes so long to go through them. I
Tina:guess that brings us to our next question then of why rejections, um, you know, why my authors, uh, be rejected, uh, and like you said, it could just be because of the writing. Uh, otherwise, uh, yeah, there could be something else in the story. Is there anything that stands out, any common mistakes that people are making that would That would lead to a, to a no.
Ruby:Um, the biggest mistake that an author submitting can make is to, and we've talked about this already, not know what the publisher publishes. If you're submitting a poetry manuscript to a non poetry publisher, then that's a pretty big mistake. Some of this can get quite specific and detailed though, and I wouldn't blame people for not knowing. Because each publisher, like an individual publisher within a broader publishing company, might be doing 12 books in a year, um, up to 20. You know, if they're really pushing it. So they might just not have space for a book like yours. It might not be what their list needs. Um, they might think, Oh, this is like pretty well written, but I can't really see how I would pitch that. So maybe I'll just leave that to someone else. Uh, they're really, they're looking at your book as something that they can pitch as a product in their broader list. And. What they can allocate resources to and all these sorts of other considerations that you're probably not aware of and couldn't possibly be aware of. So often rejection doesn't mean that it's bad writing or a bad book. It's just that they can't see how they specifically will publish it effectively or how it will add to their report. their bottom line often. So it's, I know it's extremely disheartening. And I do always like to say when I send rejections, like, firstly, this is extremely subjective. Different publishers feel completely differently about the same book. Um, I've read a lot of books that are published that I didn't particularly like that other people clearly loved because they're bestsellers. And, um, Also, there often is a home out there, there could be someone who is the right publisher for it, and they're like, you know, this is exactly the kind of book that I need right now, I'm so glad this came into my inbox. So I definitely encourage people to keep trying, even if they get a couple of rejections, because it's not necessarily about the quality of the book.
Madeleine:That's really, really good advice. Um, Ruby, you, you mentioned that sometimes, you know, like you said, the writing's good, but it's just not what you're looking for. So what, what are you looking for in the next 12 months? What's hot on your list?
Ruby:So actually something that we're in a little bit of a process of, um, working through. I mean, We've just got a new publishing director, which is really exciting. Kate Blake. She's an absolute gun. Um, she published the happiest man on earth, publishing Hayley Scrivener, uh, Prima Facey. She's really, really fantastic publisher. So we're actually currently in the process of. Figuring out our strategy for our next step. So it's an exciting time, but it also means I can't give you the clearest answer that I would. What I can say is that I've always loved crime and thriller, especially at the sort of, not necessarily literary, but towards that end. Like it's got that little bit of a sophisticated side to it. I love history, like historical fiction. Which as you know, Madeline, um, again, I love it when it's got that deeper idea within it, I love commercial fiction as well, but especially if it's got a bit of satire, you know, and I get to lean a little bit into my, uh, My biases and my personal tastes at this point, I think, as we're figuring out our strategy, because these are the kinds of books that I love reading. Um, I love books that are funny. And so I'll often, if something is genuinely funny and well done, I will perhaps cross into genres that I wouldn't have done otherwise. And in nonfiction, uh, a good travel memoir is always a helpful thing. A really nicely done one. That's how you
Madeleine:picked up Pip Williams, isn't it?
Ruby:Exactly, yeah, that's how we came to Pip. Um, memoirs, you know, memoirs from people who aren't celebrities are tough. But when there's a travel aspect to it, it can be, it can be firstly really nice to work on because you get to armchair travel through this book. But also it does seem to have more of an audience and we've found that we can often do quite well with those. Um, and I don't know, just interesting books. Yes. Interesting books. I know everyone thinks their books is an interesting book though, so it's probably too broad.
Madeleine:That's so fun though, that you get to sort of figure out what the strategy is going to be and I think too, it's great that you can put your personal preferences in that. I've seen the amount of work and dedication that you have to, you have to give to these books. If you, if you don't love it, it would make your job pretty torturous, I would imagine. I think you've read it. Other than me, the most times of anyone of my book. So,
Ruby:and it's really like changed, don't you think? It's interesting how you get these other brains. And we've also had, obviously my colleague, who's fantastic, Laura.
Madeleine:Laura, she's amazing.
Ruby:Diving in as well. And it's kind of nice. And this is, you've been great with this is when you go on that ride with an author of helping them nut out the problems and the book shifts and where it was originally, but it just finds its form over time. And that's very satisfying to be able to be part of that and to work through that and see it at every stage. And then you hit a stage where you're like, I can't look at this book again. I'm going to just leave it now and not read it again for as long as I possibly can.
Madeleine:I'm, I mean, I love it and I have to say that, like, I love my book. Um, but when I do the final, final, final proofread, I will not be putting it, I will not be picking it up again. That's it. I have to say goodbye.
Ruby:Very normal. That is, that's healthy actually.
Tina:Can I ask a question on that? What advice do you have for emerging authors who want to submit their book? They feel like they've got it. Um, as far as it can go, or maybe they're still thinking or trying to get it as perfect as possible. But as you said, sometimes even after submissions and acquisitions and the book signed, there's some big changes that can happen. What advice do you have for authors who are trying to, yeah, trying to get it to the, you know, perfect stage, but, but in a way, like there still is a little bit of
Madeleine (2):room once it's submitted. Yeah.
Ruby:Yeah. Um, I mean. Yeah. I don't know if this is exactly what you mean, but be prepared for the work not to be finished when you get a publishing deal, because it won't be, um, it's very rare to get sort of trade oriented by trade. I mean, you know, getting it ready for the market, um, feedback before you have a publisher on board. So you can do really good work and you should. You know, keep working on your book, um, or on other books. If you need a break from it while you're searching for a publisher and do try to get it as good as you can, but. it's not going to be your last draft. Very, very unlikely. I don't think I've seen any book where the first draft goes completely unchanged. So go into that knowing that you have people who are there to help you make the book as engaging as possible for an audience who we want to buy the book and then feel like they've spent their money well and publishers are experts in that. That's all they do all the time is figuring out how to make books suit the biggest possible audience. And if you're not a publisher, it's just very hard to know that. And even if you are, you probably haven't had outside perspective or enough outside perspective to know for sure that you've done the very best version of the book that you can do. It is a collaborative process. So if you do want to get published by a trade publisher, just be ready to collaborate.
Tina:And maybe just making sure that the story is the best that you can get it and pretend possibly not. Sweating on the smaller stuff, you know, No,
Ruby:definitely don't, don't spend hours trying to fix typos. I mean, try to make the language reasonably clean, but that's, That's so down the track. Do as much as you can with the story. Make it as Strachan as you can. Highlight the bits that you think are the most interesting and appealing. Um, but yeah, don't, don't slave away over polishing because most likely there'll be someone Down the track, who is a fantastic copy editor, a fantastic proofer who are there specifically to help with that. And things change so much before that stage anyway, that it's probably a bit of a waste of your time to work on too deeply on anything other than, you know, the base, the, the quality of the, the writing on the line. Yes, but it doesn't have to be perfect and accurate. You know, there's, there's time for that.
Madeleine:I've had so many people actually, probably people outside the industry say to me, how do you feel about your work being edited and, and people making like changes to work and everything. And I think what you said was really important that it's a collaborative process in no way. Have you or Laura said to me, you must do this. It's, it's always been a conversation about how we can get it to be the best book it is. And while the book, like you said, has changed so much. And the essence of it has stayed the same. And it didn't actually feel complete until we went through that last, the third round of structural edits until I finally finished it. And then I was like, Oh, this is the book that it was meant to be. And it took collaboration to get there. I think. Otherwise, before that, it was just a book in my head, but after, after it's gone through, you know, the minds of so many. So I think, um, being open to that and you've probably come across, you know, lots of, um, sort of robust conversations with authors about their work and it's, it's you, you approach it in such a, um, sensitive way. And I would imagine though, there would be some occasions where some authors aren't that thrilled to change some of their work.
Ruby:Honestly, I haven't had a huge issue with that partly because I'm pretty upfront. Yeah. when I acquire something about that's going to be part of the process. Um, so maybe I'm just lucky or maybe by the time authors get to me, they've been told this before. Uh, I haven't had a huge issue with authors, uh, getting super upset about something I've suggested. Um, maybe more when I was a newer editor and it was perhaps someone else was the publisher. They've handed it over to me. I might be making some suggestions that are a little bit challenging. But to be honest, the more experience you get, the more people take you seriously. So that's also quite helpful. Most people I find are just extremely grateful and, um, really get a lot out of the process. So I don't have too many horror stories. Maybe just my authors are too nice.
Madeleine:Well, I'm glad that's fantastic. I think though it is like you said, I think it's a privilege to be edited. Um, that's how I've always seen it. The fact that you're able to share this, this work with other people is incredible. So
Tina:yeah, I've been treating it and looking at it like it's actually a masterclass. Yeah. Which will help you write, you know, learning all these things through the process from these really experienced people in the industry. So, you know, there's no better way to learn and no better teachers to learn it from. And it's only going to help for future books and future writing.
Ruby:And I think with publishing, and this is something I think most publishers will tell you, it's for very few writers. Like, it will only be a career, like a full time career for a handful of writers. You know, for most people, it's something that they have to balance with other parts of their life. So you got to come into the process being like, this is something I want to enjoy and get something out of. I want to get better at what, what I can do. I want to learn. I want to have fun, because if not, then you're just going to be very disappointed. When you get, you know, the average sales and the average paycheck that people get for the enormous effort of. writing a full length manuscript and getting it published.
Madeleine:Yeah. There's a lot of, you do a lot of this for love, I think. And I
Ruby:think publishers are aware of that too, for writers, you know, we, we do try to be, I mean, different publishers have different styles. Um, but certainly for me, I'm conscious that it's a big ask for someone and that you are sort of stepping into a really personal space for them, not just with the content of the book, but with their desire to be a writer and to kind of have this career. And it's important to be sensitive and to be, you know, honest and open and collaborative, partly because, you know, it's, it's a big thing for people, even though, you know, once you've done hundreds of books, you can forget that sometimes, but you get reminded pretty regularly.
Madeleine:What's your favorite part of the process after you've gone and acquired a book? Is it the editorial or is it the next stage production when it starts going to that stage?
Ruby:It's changed over time. Um, there was a stage where copy edits were my favorite and I loved just getting on the line and I really loved books that needed to be essentially book doctored. Um, I don't know if you've heard that term where it's, you know, a book that like it's a really great concept and there's lots of good aspects to it, good author, but it just needs someone to kind of rewrite it. Um, and I would love that. I just loved the creativity of that and the level of intervention that I could do. Now there's no way in hell I want to do it. that I've done enough of them. Um, at this stage, I'm really enjoying the publishing side of things. That's the pitch. It's coming up with the cover. It's coming up with the, the strategy for how you're going to get the book out there. Um, it's also still the structural work, which I do enjoy, but it's much less detail. And I think it's just a matter. You know, I've done that detailed side of the work for so long that I'm really enjoying this big picture stuff at the moment, but I might, you know, burn my way through that and want to go back to being a proofreader.
Madeleine:No, please don't Ruby, you're too
Tina:good of a publisher I think. Ruby, can we ask you about acquisitions and the acquisitions process? Um, it's something that it's, it's hard to find information on what happens in the acquisitions meeting. And I'm so intrigued by it. And I did lots of Googling and searching and finding podcasts and anything I could about what happened in the acquisitions meeting. When I heard that my own manuscript was going, can you give us a little bit of an insight on that?
Ruby:I can give you a little bit of an insight, um, but not the full insight because different publishers do do it differently. Um, most publishers, as far as I know, we'll have an acquisitions meeting where the publisher will bring their, or a commissioning editor perhaps will bring their proposed title to the meeting. They'll pitch it and they'll have people from the sales team, from marketing, publicity, all there to, poke holes in it, essentially, and try to see if it will hold water or not. Um, they sound quite intimidating, but also could be quite exciting. Different publishers probably run them a little bit differently. What we've done traditionally at Affirm Press has been super casual. It's been much more along the lines Me picking something up, going to the owners, Hey, this book is a historical fiction about, uh, the Lidlon district in Melbourne. It's based on the author's own family. She's got this like crazy background. And one of her ancestors was a notorious madam of a brothel. What do you think? And they'll go, Oh yeah, that sounds all right. And so, and then I'd go, okay, well, this is how much I want to offer for it. And we had to talk a bit of back and forth on it. It was very, very casual. We've made it a little bit more formal recently where we try to fill in a pitch document and we sort of a bit like a more complicated, more, uh, Numbers driven version of what an author will do when they submit their pitch to us in the first place. They'll include comparison titles and how much they sold and things like that. I'll send it around to sales team, publicity team, a marketing team, and other publishers, and just get feedback. That's probably going to change again. I think we will be heading towards acquisitions meetings now that we've got the new system. So. there are all sorts of ways to do it. Um, the big thing to be aware of with it is that if you feel nervous going to a publisher, the publishers girding their loins to go to the acquisitions meeting and really preparing themselves to be, uh, interrogated and to have to really defend their decision and say why they love this book. So
Madeleine:you're not alone. It's also so heartbreaking if acquisitions, so publisher likes your book, but the acquisitions meeting says no, and that's can be awful. Yeah,
Ruby:it could be, but then it's often, and that's awful for the author. But I will say that, um, in my experience, getting that feedback is useful because I, I came through the editorial department. So I know. I learned it. That side of things really well, I don't really, I'm not an expert in marketing in the way that the marketing manager is. And so they can come in and say, Oh, look, this sounds great, but I might face this problem in this problem. And then the salesperson will say, look, that sounds great, but booksellers probably won't connect to that because of this and this. And as a publisher, I want my book to succeed. It's essentially getting advice. Like I want to need my books to succeed in the market. So it's getting expert advice is what the acquisitions meeting is. And that's how I look at it. When I go and send it around, it's not them saying I don't like it. So, um, it is often them giving their advice from the departments that they understand much better than I do. And so in that sense, I find them very, very helpful. And I don't feel too hurt when they give me good reasons for why I A book isn't right for our list, but it's so hard to tell the authors that. And I do try to sort of be sort of straight up with them that again, another publisher may find another approach that does work. So, you know, if you've gotten to the point of an acquisitions meeting, that's actually a really positive step. And that should be encouraging to you, even though it's obviously going to be disappointing. You should feel encouraged to try, keep trying. At least keep trying with your next project. It means that you've obviously got something. So keep at
Tina:it. That's great advice, Ruby. Uh, so we were going to ask you, and we've kind of, that is a really good tip for emerging writers. What is your top tip for emerging writers?
Ruby:Yeah, a bit like that. It's just go for it, get it out there. Let people read it. Don't be too shy. Don't be too afraid. Be ready for honest feedback and try to keep bouncing back. Um, I think that's the best possible way to approach it. And part of that is often, I think having multiple projects on the go at the same time. If you're sending your book out there and waiting to hear back about it, it's so much easier if you're working on your next book already, we've had lots of authors who've got about. 3, 2, 3 finished manuscripts that they got through before they found one that was publishable. And one in particular, Christian White, if you can hear about his first manuscripts, like one was about a giant slug, it is absolute madness. And he's never going to publish them because they're ridiculous. But he got to this point with the Nowhere Child of this amazing, amazing manuscript Was a big hit. So just get out there, keep working, keep writing, keep pitching, um, and keep getting better.
Madeleine:Love that giant slug. Look, there might be a market for it in future. You never know.
Ruby:I can't tell you to send it to me, but he's. No,
Madeleine:I love that. Um, and we thought we'll just finish off Ruby as well. Um, what's your top tip for both Tina and I, as we're about to embark on a very special year next year when our debut has come out into the world.
Ruby:Just be open to whatever happens, um, and try to have fun with it. You, you can do as much as you can within, you know, your role as writer and do your best possible job. Certain aspects of it are out of your control. Yeah. Market to. Unpredictable, Raiders are unpredictable. You never know, you could have a massive hit. You could just do okay, uh, try to make it a process that you enjoy. And I think you guys are already into it. Build those communities of other writers, take it as a chance to, uh, meet other people who love books and love writing the way you do and keep going forward with that. So I think that's, that's the best way. Just keep that attitude that you already have, because even doing this podcast, you're already on the right track as far as making the most of being a debut author. It's the only time you get to do it.
Madeleine:It's true. You only get it once. Well, I take that as endorsement for our WhatsApp, Affirm Press WhatsApp group then.
Ruby:Yeah. Look, I am actually quite proud of you guys. Just quite. Terrified, but proud. Like seeing your children go to, go to university or something like, Oh God. What are they going to get up to? Yeah. Well, how could they survive without me? Why do they have their own social lives?
Madeleine:All right. Thank you so much, Ruby, for your time. We really appreciate it. No worries. We hope you enjoyed this episode of the book deal podcast. Please like, follow or share this episode so we can encourage more
Tina:aspiring authors. And if you have a question you'd like us to answer or ask our guests, please find us on Instagram at the book deal or email us at the book deal at outlook. com.