The Book Deal
Motivation and inspiration for emerging writers, helping them pave their own pathway to publishing success.
The Book Deal
The Takeover: writing fiction after memoir with Kaya Wilson
In this episode of The Book Deal Podcast, hosted by Natasha Rai, multi-talented writer and tsunami scientist Kaya Wilson discusses their unique publishing journey. Their debut memoir, 'As Beautiful As Any Other,' was widely acclaimed, and Kaya offers insightful advice on developing a writing practice, the importance of setting boundaries, and the collaborative but challenging editing process. They also share experiences from significant events like the Sydney Writers' Festival and provide a glimpse into their upcoming queer coming-of-age novel, 'Romeo, A Tale of Four Jumps.' Kaya emphasizes the value of strategic planning, the role of grants, and the emotional complexity of writing memoirs versus fiction.
Our debut in the spotlight this week is Steve Minon, whose literary fiction novel, First Name Second Name, was released on 4 March 2025 with UQP.
00:00 Introduction to the Book Deal Podcast
00:39 Meet Kaya Wilson: Author and Scientist
01:13 Kaya's Elevator Pitch and Writing Style
03:45 The Importance of Boundaries in Memoir Writing
08:41 Navigating the Publication Journey
10:27 Finding and Working with an Agent
17:45 The Role of Competitions and Fellowships
16:00 Steve Minon's novel: First Name Second Name
19:22 The Waiting Game: Resubmission and Acceptance
20:47 Navigating the Editing Process
23:15 The Emotional Rollercoaster of Legal Edits
24:15 Memoir Release and Festival Experience
27:29 Transitioning to Fiction Writing
30:15 Balancing Work and Writing
36:06 Tips for Emerging Writers
37:36 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
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This is the Book Deal Podcast, monthly takeover by your host, Natasha Rai. I'll be bringing you even more debut and season authors as they talk about their path to publication.
Madeleine Cleary:The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters which it's recorded on. and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
Natasha Rai:Kaya Wilson is a writer, tsunami scientist, and lover of all things ocean, who somehow finds himself living in Canberra. Their first book, As Beautiful As Any Other, was listed by The Guardian as one of the best books of 2021 and shortlisted for the 2022 ACT Book of the Year. Their second book, a queer coming of age novel, Romeo, A Tale of Four Jumps, is in submission. Hi, Kaya. Welcome to the Book Deal Podcast.
Kaya Wilson:Hello. Thank you for having me.
Natasha Rai:My absolute pleasure. Um, so we're here today to talk a little bit about your publishing journey, um, and how you got your first deal. But before we get to that, I would love to hear your elevator pitch. Yep, straight up.
Kaya Wilson:Yeah, look, I've never been great at the elevator pitch. But I'll give it a shot. Um, the other day I called it emo memoir. Um, look, it's a, it's, I'm actually. You know, it's been a few years now and I was looking back at it and I feel really proud of it, right? It's a, it's a memoir, it's broken up into thematic chapters, and it sort of covers, um, the period of time in, probably one of the more formative times of my life, um, when I began my gender transition, um, sort of emotionally and medically, and it's sort of about everything that got me there, and then where I thought it was going to take me, essentially.
Natasha Rai:Thanks. That's a great pitch.
Kaya Wilson:Thanks. Yeah, like I did an event with Diana Reid. Um, and she was like going off the charts, it was successful with Love and Virtue at the time. And she had this pitch that was rehearsed, nailed, managed. And that is something I want to do for my next book. I want to, it's my new book resolution to get that pitch nailed in a way that. You know, everyone can understand. He doesn't have any idea what you're talking about.
Natasha Rai:Yeah, I think it's, I find it really hard not to roll my eyes and make a stupid face. So
Kaya Wilson:you've got one, but you've got one prepared though. That's half the battle.
Natasha Rai:Well, I've had to, you know, cause this is so close to release. So I've
Kaya Wilson:had to kind of practice it a lot. Absolutely. And especially like fiction. Yeah. If you can, like, I would love to get you to do it now, but I'm not going to do that because it's not your job today, but I look forward to hearing it live on radio someday. Exactly.
Natasha Rai:Some other time. Um, so I don't know if you remember, but, um, you gave me some excellent advice many, many years ago. So you and I had a, we both had pieces in that Me Too anthology that came out in 2017, I think, or 2018. Yeah. And we were doing an event together. And before we went on stage, you said to me, just be careful because when you're, you know, when you're up there and there's. A lot of lovely supportive people around, you might say a bit too much, or you might share a bit too much about yourself and later on you think, Oh, I really didn't want to do that. That's interesting. So I was thinking. Yeah. Yeah. I was like going
Kaya Wilson:back in time. Yeah. Go on.
Natasha Rai:So I was thinking about that advice that you gave me and I was wondering if that plays or had a part to play when you approach your memoir, like how do you even start something like that kind of a project?
Kaya Wilson:Yeah, I mean, there's a boundaries, right? We're talking about boundaries. And I think, yeah, at the time, like, you know, it's part of everyone's psychological evolution. And it's interesting for me to hear from you what I said at that time, because I think I was really learning a new type of boundaries, especially in terms of being In the public eye to a small degree with the book, absolutely. I do think of it as a boundary text, even though there are some quite like exposing or vulnerable elements to it and moments that not everyone's going to share. And, um, I think there's a few things in that. And there's lots of people who approach memoir in different ways, right? So some people, it seems to be that everyone who, most people who write memoir find a way to say what they need to say, and that might be either fictionalizing it or, or, uh, you know, classing it as auto fiction or, or something that gives them a little bit of, uh, liberation from mm-hmm You know, being exposed or they do something a bit like what I sort of did was like, write it first and then come back to sort of edit what you don't want to be made public. And there are certain things about being from a slightly marginalized identity that can feel exposing in some ways, or you feel like are overexposed in general. Um, and you feel like you don't want that. I felt like I didn't want people to fixate on or. I felt needed to be presented in a certain way because we don't, we don't live in a vacuum. Right. Um, yeah, there are some things that I did couch somewhat and, and that's also kind of interesting for me because some of those things I did hold back on, um, really came out of my fiction. So, um, I think. The things that need to come out, come out at some point. It's just, you need to control how, how it's done in a way that you feel comfortable with. And so sometimes your boundaries evolve, right? Um, and. You know, I don't know how you feel about that Me Too experience. And it's interesting thinking back now, like, wow, like the Me Too movement, that was quite a heady time, wasn't it?
Natasha Rai:It really was.
Kaya Wilson:Yeah.
Natasha Rai:Yeah.
Kaya Wilson:It feels almost quaint in this day and age. Yeah. But yeah, so boundaries, important. Hold them and also establish them before you publish. That's the other thing.
Natasha Rai:So for you, Kaya, you wrote, you wrote it, and then once you kind of went back to it, did the themes emerge or did you have themes in mind that you then moved things around to fit?
Kaya Wilson:Yeah, themes absolutely emerged. So I actually wrote it, um, in a more conventional chronological way. It's probably a series of like 80 essays of about like 1000 words each. And I went back and I just tried an experiment one day where I tried to weave two things together. And, um, I wrote one 5, 000 word chapter and I was like, Oh, this is good and it was thematic. And I was like, Oh, thematic works. I was like, Oh, no, I have to write the whole thing again. And then I wrote the whole thing again. And it just, um, the themes to me, what rose to the top, you know, it was the, the A story and B story. It was the, the real meaning kind of came to the top when I made it thematic. Um, And yeah, so sometimes when things are thematic, you can hide some of the content.
Natasha Rai:Yeah, yeah. And you know, for some of our listeners who are considering or who are working on memoir, how did you look after yourself? Well, because I assume that parts of it must have been quite difficult to write.
Kaya Wilson:Yeah, absolutely. It was part of writing. It was part of looking out to myself. If that makes sense. Yeah.
Natasha Rai:Yeah.
Kaya Wilson:Um, I mean, that's not my entire mental health strategy.
Natasha Rai:It's a good one though. It's almost like a catharsis, right?
Kaya Wilson:Yeah. And you know, it's making sense of things. And it was a way that I have made sense of things a lot of people do get that from writing things. I mean, I did also have therapy, et cetera. Um, but. Yeah, it was so important to my way of understanding myself and the world at the time that it's quite hard to even separate, um, separate it out.
Natasha Rai:So you write this memoir, you put it into a, an order that makes sense to you in terms of themes. So tell me a little bit about your publication journey after that, because I know that you've had lots of short pieces and lots of publications already under your belt by that point.
Kaya Wilson:Thanks. Yeah. So that was a, I'd say strategic, actually, the short pieces. Um, and when we talk about boundaries, some of the short pieces of the things that I probably feel the weirdest about, but, and then also like now that kind of like first person opinion, PC type stuff, I'd barely even read it anymore. Like, I think it was just for me, legit a phase or even like maybe a phase is. In media at the time that I was a bit more engaged in, um, but, but that aside, the emotional or attachment to it aside, getting your, some things published is super important, I think, for me, it worked right. So I had. Um, short things published online, a couple in print and then two anthologies and then a book. So the, for me, the key, the linchpin to all of it was having an agent. Um, but it goes the same with an agent or not, right? Because you're either you are pitching yourself or the agent is pitching you. So you still need to have something to pitch, um, having something published means that not just you, but someone else has said, Oh, we think this is good enough to publish. Um, my agent, uh, got me sort of. Well, it kind of got me the invitation to apply or send a piece in for the Me Too anthology.
Natasha Rai:So before we go into that, can we just take a step back? How did you get your agent? A lot of our listeners are very interested.
Kaya Wilson:So yeah, I mean, this is probably, like I knew her socially. Right. And that's kind of an annoying thing to hear because it sounds like all who, you know, or having connections. Um, and I did know someone semi famous watching someone pretty famous who she was the publicist for, so she knew all about like publishing. Um, so my agent is Jane Novak. She knew about publishing. She was a publicist at the time when I first met her. I really liked her. I saw her in action with, uh, well known writers in a publicist role, but for like people who are stratospheric, they kind of have a publicist who follows them around. Um, I don't have that. Um, but yeah, so. I'd seen her in action. I'd seen her be very sensitive and, um, just really switched on. It's like, I kind of knew how she worked, right? And then she started a literary agency later down the track. And then I was like, look, I'm writing some stuff. And she was like, send it through. And. She was happy to take me on. She's also like takes people on not in a kind of you sign a contract and that's it. It's sort of more like I will sell each book that you produce kind of thing. Um, so that's how I knew, so I knew her and I went, I trusted her already and I went, that's how I went with her.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. And Kaya, even though you might've known her, it still comes down to the quality of your work. Like she's not going to just say yes, because she knows you.
Kaya Wilson:Yeah. And she has said no to me before. So like there, I did have a novel that she was like, it's the voice is wrong. It's not, it doesn't work. Um, so like, yeah, I also trust that she will say no to me, which is quite good.
Natasha Rai:Yes.
Kaya Wilson:Having said that I have introduced other people to her, um, or. And, or tried to, and then she said, just tell them to email me on my website. And I'm like, well, okay. So that's how people get her anyway. So me having an introduction. So, okay. I have introduced several people to her. Some people, she was like, she was just like, just tell them to email me. So that's like her blanket response. One of them was a friend who she didn't took on, um, whose book I had read. And then there was another one, which I think is one of the most brilliant books. That's coming out with a different publisher in New York or with a publisher in New York anyway this year and she said no, she was too busy. So whatever's on her website, if you email her and she says I'm too busy, she means it. Okay. So my point what I'm trying to make is that whatever she says to me is the same as what she says to a random person approaching her. Yeah. So. Although I knew her already, and she had a social obligation to at least respond to me, she still also responds to strangers.
Natasha Rai:Yeah, she tells the truth. Like she tells, I mean, she tells the same thing. Yeah, it's not a special treatment or something.
Kaya Wilson:The only thing it meant is I didn't shop around.
Natasha Rai:Hmm.
Kaya Wilson:Um, and. Like, I haven't made tons of money in writing, but like my first offer for my memoir, um, she bargained it up to an amount that exactly covered her, her cut. So I don't know, I've already, she's, she's paid away already.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. I did. So, so you had Jane on your side and then she pitched you for the Me Too. Anthology. Yeah.
Kaya Wilson:Um, she said, do you have anything you could put in here? Oh, I see.
Natasha Rai:Right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And then after that, you sent her your, uh, kind of. Yeah.
Kaya Wilson:Well, you know, after that, then I, um, I actually sent her some of the early drafts. So this is what I'm writing. And she was like, great, get back to me when you've got a full length book. And that was actually one of the key bits of advice, which I've continued to use. It's a, I'd say less advice than a strategy. And it's to write your full text, have creative control, um, and then submit it. Um, because if you submit, for me particularly, that's what worked. I don't actually give that advice to everyone. But if you, you know, say, submit a few chapters and then you get a deal, they can often want to influence your creative direction.
Natasha Rai:Oh, I see. Yeah. Yeah. This must be very difficult if you're writing memoir. Yeah. Because it's your life, right?
Kaya Wilson:I know, right? Yeah.
Natasha Rai:Yeah.
Kaya Wilson:And like, sometimes it can probably be gentle. I mean, I heard about Kate Holden's. Um, publisher talk about shirt in my skin. She's about about, um, uh, what do you call it? Maybe. middle class heroin addiction story, uh, or sex work, like sort of sensitive issues. And her publisher said, um, I want your mom to be in every chapter. I was like, Oh God. Um, but like, you know, so that's, I guess, gentle or advice that, um, maybe really worked, but like, That creative control was important to me and, and, and since then when people have tried to tell me how to solve a literary problem, it just doesn't work. I'm really happy taking advice on the problems, but I need to come up with the solutions. Yeah.
Natasha Rai:Well it's your work.
Kaya Wilson:Yeah, right. Yeah.
Steve Minon:Hello, my name's Steve Minon and I've written a novel called First name, second name, which is about four generations of two migrant families, one Chinese and one Scottish who come to Australia and become one. The protagonist is a corpse who is on a nocturnal pilgrimage back to the town of his birth in far north Queensland. I started writing First Name, Second Name when I discovered that my own second name, family name, was an anglicised amalgamation of two first names. And it bothered me that my ancestors had allowed this to happen, and it made me think about what a migrant is prepared to lose when they come to Australia and are so keen to fit in. And so the book is a reckoning with the past, and it is about intergenerational trauma. It's about navigating a mixed race existence where one race is more accepted than the other. But it's also about being an eternal outsider, because the protagonist is on a search for his sexual identity, and this causes a family estrangement. It's complex, but it has been described by Michael Muhammad Ahmed as being a portrait of who we are now and who we are destined to become. And that's a lot to live up to, but if you get to read it, I really hope you enjoy it. It's out now via UQP.
Natasha Rai:What happened after you, after you kind of got it into a form that you were happy with and she felt was ready for submission?
Kaya Wilson:Yeah, so first up, that took longer than one wants it to. I was pretty impatient and that just took longer than I wanted it and too bad. Okay. That's what happened. So then she is kinda like a matchmaker, right? So she picks. Um, a publisher who she thinks will understand and honor the work, uh, with, and work well with the author. And she picked Matilda Imla, who was then at Picador, which is an imprint of Pan Macmillan, and she was Um, so I'm missing a step actually. So she picked her, but also in the meantime, I applied for every single emerging writer, competition, event, fellowship that I, that I could find. And I was shortlisted for a bunch of them. I ended up winning the only one that had no money. Um, but in the end, it was a great deal. And what. Part of what the fellowship offered. Uhhuh um, it was writing New South Wales, uh, UNA Fellowship and it offered weeks at Una and, uh, a manuscript assessment by Matilda Ila with the publisher at Pam Macmillan. And then, so she provided the manuscript assessment, I did the, took the feedback that she gave me.
Natasha Rai:Mm-hmm
Kaya Wilson:Um, worked on it, and then Jane then resubmitted it to her.
Natasha Rai:Amazing. So you already had that connection with her and that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's really important, isn't it? Like so many of us competitions, even if there's no money, the opportunity to get in front of a publisher or to have a relationship is so important.
Kaya Wilson:It's pretty priceless and it also means like, so some of those competitions lock you in or kind of lock you in. Right. Or, or like, yeah, this was an assessment. Great, knew who I was. And then, yeah, you're not anonymous when you do send it. Yeah.
Natasha Rai:And so after she resubmitted it, um, did you have like a long wait? Like, how did that play out?
Kaya Wilson:That is hard to think about. Um, I, I couldn't tell you how long it was. It would have been less than a month. Okay. That's pretty good. Yeah, I think that is pretty good. Yeah, I think industry standard is probably within six weeks, but I'm sure there's plenty that go over. I've had some go over actually recently, so.
Natasha Rai:And it was a yes. It was a yes, which was, it was magic.
Kaya Wilson:Yeah. So that was also a beautiful experience. It was like, okay, it all, it was like, it was very stepped. So it was like, okay, enter the competition and get the thing. Have that relationship, work on it, take your time, resubmit, and it was like, okay, you lay the ground, and then it was a yes. So, in a, in one sense, um, the, the, I didn't get a no, I didn't experience a no with that first book, but like, it was almost like, the groundwork had really been laid. So like any opportunity for a no would have known about ahead of time.
Natasha Rai:Yeah, exactly. And you did all that important work by entering those competitions as well.
Kaya Wilson:Yeah. And I guess some of those were almost like no's. Um, but in a way it, like, it felt smooth, even though it was a sort of cumulative kind of process.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. And what was the kind of process like once you got that offer? Was there more, another few rounds of editing?
Kaya Wilson:Yes. So yeah, there was actually quite a big, cause I was like, great, done. Sweet. No. Also, I was like, okay, well, so now I just like collect my check.
Natasha Rai:Open my champagne.
Kaya Wilson:Um, and although it's, I do think it's something actually Liz Duck Chong has said to me, like, it's really important to celebrate each milestone. Uh, and I really try to honor that, which is nice because you're always on to the next thing. So it's always good to like stop and go, okay, yeah, great. Let's, let's open that champagne or whatever it is.
Natasha Rai:Yeah.
Kaya Wilson:Um, and. Okay, so then they read it, then they sent it to, they were actually on two, there were two main editors. So there was like one person who did like, cool, like a deep edit. Um, and then there was another person who kind of did another type of edit and then there was a line edit. So the deep edit. Was pretty full on, um, and require quite a lot of work after that. And I'd say, you know, probably had it for six weeks or so, but like working on it quite a lot weekends then. So I'd say maybe three or four rounds of edits.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. And just, just on that, given how some writers can feel quite. not precious, but very protective of their manuscripts, and it's fiction. How was that process for you being?
Kaya Wilson:So for me, the process of editing, um, just for context, I was actually doing it the same time I was like finishing my PhD, which is also being edited. Um, God. Yeah. And Honestly, I had a very sensitive, gentle editor for the, for the memoir that was honestly like light and day between the PhD where they just kind of, they've got no qualms with red pen or telling you you're wrong. Okay. It was actually the edit. So for me, the editing process was. Really great actually felt collaborative. It felt like a little bit of a relief that was being taken care of and there's like publishing world. So, yeah, so the editing was lovely. It was much more of an emotional, difficult, emotionally difficult thing when I did a legal edit. So, for me, because I name and talk about real people that aren't me, legal edit was quite hardcore. Um, and. So a lawyer literally said you like, like highlighted certain things and said, either you can't say this or you need to change it, or this is true, but it sounds a bit like you mean something else.
Natasha Rai:Okay. Yeah.
Kaya Wilson:Um, and. That felt, uh, that was difficult because it was very much about telling my truth. And so when someone says, Oh, you can't tell your truth, that was a lot harder.
Natasha Rai:Yeah.
Kaya Wilson:Um, and then I sort of settled it in the sense of I'm telling my emotional truth.
Natasha Rai:Nice. Yeah. I like that. And, um, when did your memoir get put out into the world?
Kaya Wilson:It's 2021. Um, my first event was Sydney Writers Festival, which I think was May.
Natasha Rai:Oh, that's a big one.
Kaya Wilson:It was a big one. Sure. Yeah. So that, like, that was a lot. Um, but it was cool. It was really cool. I was paired with, like, it was such a wild experience. Like, I think back on it now, it was probably my wildest, like, Writer Festival events ever. Um, and it was my first, uh, so that was really exciting. Also, it just felt very cool, having gone to Sydney Writers Festival many times, it felt awesome being in it. And also, you're sort of guaranteed a bit of an audience, which, um, well, I don't know if you are, but it felt like I was. And I was like, I'm, I'm like, honestly, I'm sort of scared to even throw parties for myself. Like, I just don't have that particular confidence angle or whatever it is. Um, so yeah, I just. I was like, Oh God, it was, it was nerve wracking. And like, when we're talking about the, the, I guess like the confidence rainbow, I'm pretty confident on stage and that's not, that's okay for me. But like the, the kind of experience of putting it into the world just added a whole different corner of the rainbow. That was really Nerve wracking. Yes. Yeah. And a lot of anxiety. And, you know, you go to this like hotel and it's like such a cool hotel and like everyone's making a huge deal out of everything. You know, the programs there, there's like super famous people in the hotel, you know, and then you like go to the event and you're in the green room and I was just like trying to do my breathing and. You know, someone comes up to me and they're like chatting and they were like, relaxed and I'm trying to just like, hold it together.
Natasha Rai:Trying to keep it together. Yeah.
Kaya Wilson:Yeah. And it's like wild event with someone who'd written a book about, um, uh, donor babies. So, um, so children who are conceived using, uh, donate, donated egg or sperm or whatever combination. And she was very anti. donor babies and she had been a donor baby herself but hadn't known about it until she was a grown up and so she had quite a lot of um, she had a lot of emotional baggage about the whole experience but then I was like this queer writer and then we were being moderated by Maeve Marsden who yeah literally she's lovely she's awesome and I'm so like no one else would have been to handle this And because she is both a donor baby and was pregnant with a donor baby at that moment. And then this like journalist who was really anti the whole thing and then like me and I was just so relieved it was Maeve, um, who I was familiar with and I just knew would be able to do it. Yeah. Um, God, what an experience. I know. It was like, It was spicy and the questions were wild and it was a super queer audience because of me and Maeve, I guess. And then, yeah, it was, it was, yeah, it was full on, but the, but then like the party afterwards was great, you know,
Natasha Rai:yeah. Get rid of all that tension at the party.
Kaya Wilson:Yeah, exactly.
Natasha Rai:And so you've mentioned, Kaya, that you've just submitted your next manuscript. Is that fiction?
Kaya Wilson:It is fiction.
Natasha Rai:What can you say about that?
Kaya Wilson:I'm like really comfortable talking about it. I don't have a problem doing that. I don't know if there's like reasons why you shouldn't.
Natasha Rai:I don't know either. I've always been curious when writers are like, I can't talk about it. I'm like, why not?
Kaya Wilson:Yeah. I mean, I'm not under some kind of like, doesn't have a deal yet. So it's not like I'm under some kind of, I don't know. Also, it's not like state secrets. Do you know what I mean? This is, this is just. Yeah. Um, yes, I've written a novel, it's, um, it's young adult classic coming of age tale. It's a bit of a riff off Romeo and Juliet with like a young queer character who, um, living their life and then goes off to tropical fruits festival up in Lismore and explores themselves, their body, other people's bodies, and, and has a wild time in a fairly like safe community situation, basically.
Natasha Rai:Awesome. And so how was that experience for you writing something like, you know, fiction?
Kaya Wilson:Yeah, it was, it was a totally different experience. I'd describe it as joyous. Like, it was really fun. I was super strategic in how I set that out as well. Like, I just feel like I'm in a place in my life where I'm a bit more in control of how my life works. I, uh, very intentionally, um, worked out how to apply for a grant with Arts ACT and, you know, did a lot of work and research into how I could optimize it and how much I should ask for. And I, I ended up getting a grant.
Natasha Rai:Congratulations. Awesome.
Kaya Wilson:Thanks. Yeah. Yeah. So it was 25, 000, which is not to be sneezed at and much more than any advance. Um, probably ever going to get. So, um, yeah, I got that, went four days a week at my day job. Uh, so wrote one day a week, which is a formula that worked for me with my memoir. At the time I was doing a PhD, so I had a bit more control over my time, but yeah, so this time I just, yeah, went four days a week, uh, got a mentorship with Katherine Hayman.
Natasha Rai:Oh, yes.
Kaya Wilson:Yeah, a bit of an icon. And, um, yeah, so did the mentorship, wrote, wrote the book, um, also did for the first time I really looked at books on creativity, um, books on plot and storytelling and, you know, Creativity in general. Um, and that was a really kind of cool experience. And it just felt honestly very playful and fun. And like I had a license to kind of do whatever I wanted and I loved it. I had a great time.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. How wonderful. And actually I was going to ask you about how you. Balance work and writing. But it sounds like, as you said, you were very strategic and figured out what you needed to do, which was the extra day, right? Or that one day.
Kaya Wilson:Yeah, yeah, yeah. It works for me. I need to have that dedicated time. I don't work well if I'm flipping and flopping between lots of other things. I can't just like take lunch, break and do Right. Right. I mean, I can sort of try, but it doesn't suit me. Yeah. Um, and I think also, especially for fiction, well, for me anyway, there's this kind of concept of shutting everything out so you can have freedom. And like, I just have to like, really, like life is pressurized for everyone. Right. And to do creative work under pressure just wasn't going to work for me. And so I just needed to totally, uh, isolate time so that I could. Really play and, um, create something without a kind of, without that sort of pressure, you know, it's hard to describe having read these creativity books. Now, like, I'm starting to understand. That's what helped it. It helped me with my practice was more than with the content, um, and creating a writing practice is something I really understand now. And it's It's so important, I think.
Natasha Rai:So does that mean that before you started writing this particular manuscript, you didn't have a dedicated writing practice?
Kaya Wilson:Well, I say I came and went. So like when I was doing my PhD, I was writing my memoir. I did do, I wrote, I wrote, wrote on Mondays. Um, but no one was stopping me, you know, like no one was watching over my shoulder, whereas now I'm like, you know, I work for an environmental consultancy and my time is charged by the hour. So I have to deliver 8 hours of work a day. Um, so yeah, I had that one day a week practice during my PhD. After I finished my PhD and I was working full time, I didn't have a practice in that sense. I sort of did here and there, one at a time off on weekends. Then when I got back to that Four days a week working one day a week writing. I was like, okay, this is it.
Natasha Rai:Yeah.
Kaya Wilson:And that has worked.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. So are you going to try and keep that practice going or are you back to full time work?
Kaya Wilson:Well, well, well spent the grant now. Um, but I just couldn't bring myself to go back to five days a week. Like I was like, I just thought about it. I tried to like visualize it. I can't do it and I can afford it. Um, and I was like, this is a privilege that I am going to enjoy. And so I just work four days a week still. And that fifth day I either do an adventure, like go, like this weekend going canoeing, or I'll do writing from writing mode, or I might use it, um, to go to an event, say a writer's festival or something. But I do whatever it is. I can't try and keep it intentional.
Natasha Rai:Yeah, I really like that.
Kaya Wilson:Don't do laundry. What I'm trying to say is don't do boring stuff.
Natasha Rai:Yeah, exactly. You've got five other, six other days in fact to do that. Um, and also in terms of when you started to write that, this manuscript, um, Romeo A Tale of Four Charms, I really love the title.
Kaya Wilson:Awesome.
Natasha Rai:Um, did you feel any pressure or any type of, I don't know, worry or fear or misgivings about, you know, moving from forms, memoir to fiction?
Kaya Wilson:Honestly, I didn't really, I didn't think about it. I mean, what, you know, having tried to very intentionally take on a creative practice, I just, and, and, and having, although I have one day a week, it still feels like only one day a week. Um, and I'm only going to spend it doing something that truly drives me. Like writing a book is hard and. It has, you have to have something sustaining you and so I just went with the thing that stirred my, my soul. Yeah, yeah. So I wasn't nervous about moving to fiction at all. And then when I like submitted it to my agent, she was like, Oh, this is great. She was like, Oh, I was a bit worried because moving from memoir to fiction is really hard. And I was like, Oh, um, I didn't know that.
Natasha Rai:So it sounds like either, you know, cause having spoken to lots of different emerging writers and debut writers, some of us, and I did at one point as well, there's a real sense of urgency. Like, Oh my God, if I don't write this thing, or if I don't grab this opportunity, it's gone forever. But it sounds like. You don't have that, or you, you've figured out how to write that?
Kaya Wilson:I absolutely have a sense of urgency, um, but I don't, but I try and keep it out the door when I'm writing, if that makes sense. Yeah. So I use, probably channel that urgency. We're trying to channel that urgency into planning, or, you know, getting those grant dates, or, um, that kind of thing. And then I don't, I try to. sort of negotiate with it when it's things like, oh, this is really topical and he's getting out now, you know, but I had no control over that. So yeah, I, yeah, I do have that sense of urgency in many ways, but I definitely try and keep it out, out of the door.
Natasha Rai:And it sounds like you've gotten quite good at channeling it into things you can do like g rant submissions.
Kaya Wilson:Yeah. Yeah. And like those things are hard and Uh, artists are always bad at them usually, but you've got to like, I don't know, try and like use your skills. Like I'm 40 now, I've accumulated other skills, I can do admin and like, yeah, so try and channel that kind of logistical energy into that.
Natasha Rai:So we are actually nearly out of time and you've actually given me lots and lots of good tips, but, uh, the final question I have is, do you have any top tip or tips for any, for emerging writers?
Kaya Wilson:Yeah, I mean, when I have said those things in response to your questions, you know, I think about, oh, well, that's what Stephen King talked about, you know, right? The first draft with the door closed, second draft, the door open. Um, it was kind of helpful conceptually, but I say the most helpful thing. I think is developing that practice. So, um, lots of people will tell you what works for them or they will tell you what is absolutely you must do. But it is about what works for you. So if you, um, if you've got small Children or whatever. Working 5 a. m. 7 a. m. might be your time for practice or, or like, you just have to work it out so that you, you come to the table, you come to the desk or the, or whatever it is with regularity, however short or infrequent it is to just. Or not some commitment that in a way that works for you.
Natasha Rai:Exactly. Because I think people get trapped into the comparison. Like, oh, well, so and so can write five days a week, but I can only write two. It doesn't matter.
Kaya Wilson:Yeah. You just got to find that practice and like you will make progress even if it is incremental.
Natasha Rai:Exactly. Progress is progress,
Kaya Wilson:right? Exactly. Yeah.
Natasha Rai:Well, thank you so much. It's been absolutely delightful having this chat with you.
Kaya Wilson:Me too. I really enjoyed it. The only thing I have to hold back is I want to ask you too, I want to know what your practice is.
Natasha Rai:We'll do that offline. Okay. Um, but honestly, best of luck with your, um, manuscript and, um, I hope it's not long before we see it on shelves.
Kaya Wilson:Yeah, neither. Neither. Thank you so much. It was a real pleasure.
Natasha Rai:Thanks, Kaya.
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