20 book deals! Rory H Mather tells us how it's done

In this episode of the Book Deal Podcast, Tina Strachan chats with picture book author Rory H. Mather. Known for his works such as 'Vlad's Bad Breath' and 'Laugh in the Bath,' Rory shares his journey of publishing 14 picture books with a recently signed deal for his 20th book. He provides practical tips for aspiring authors on getting published, creating a profile, building a writing community, and making a profit in the industry. Rory discusses his first book deals, methods for managing a busy schedule with a full-time job and young family, and the importance of staying resilient through rejections. He also emphasizes the value of professional conduct in the industry, leveraging connections, and tapping into opportunities such as school visits and literary festivals to generate income. Additionally, Rory offers advice on establishing a presence as an author and the significance of acknowledging oneself as a writer during the early stages of the journey.

The Debut Spotlight this week if Marion Taffe introducing her historical fiction novel, By Her Hand, out now with HarperCollins.

00:00 Welcome to the Book Deal Podcast

00:43 Interview with Rory H. Mather

01:30 Rory's Journey to 20 Picture Books

04:08 The Importance of Illustrators

06:30 Navigating Rejections and Successes

18:31 The Role of Agents in Publishing

28:36 Facing Rejection and Moving Forward

31:08 Dealing with Rejections in the Writing Industry

33:34 Balancing Writing with a Busy Life

37:30 Making Writing Profitable

38:06 Engaging with Schools and Speaking Engagements

48:31 Tips for Aspiring Authors

54:41 Embracing Your Debut Year

56:24 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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Transcript

Rory and Tina

Tina and Madeleine: [00:00:00] This is the Book Deal Podcast. Where you will discover the inspiring stories of the authors behind your favourite books. No matter what stage of writing you are at, we've got you covered. I'm Tina Strachan. And I'm Madeline Cleary. And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors. One deal at a time.

Madeleine: The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters which it's recorded on. And pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging. 

Tina Strachan: Hi, I'm Tina Strachan, and today on the Book Deal podcast, I'm chatting to picture book author Rory H. Mather. If you know anything about Australian picture book authors, then you'll know about Rory. Rory's 14th picture book, Laugh in the Bath, has just been published with a firm press, [00:01:00] and he has just signed his 20th.

Pitch a book deal. So you better to ask for tips about how to get published than Rory. Stay tuned for this interview, which covers practical tips for getting your work in front of publishers, how to create a profile and build your writing community and how to actually make a profit from this industry.

Something that many authors can only dream about.  

Thanks so much for being here at the book deal podcast.

Rory H. Mather.

Rory H Mather: you so much for having me, Tina.

Tina Strachan: Uh, so as you know, Rory, uh, the book deal is all about helping to inspire and motivate writers, uh, who are trying to get that elusive book deal. And you are certainly someone who knows how to get a book deal. Uh, are we at 17 picture books now, is it?

Rory H Mather: So my 14th comes out tomorrow and then I uh, this is the first time I've spoken to anyone about it, but I got an offer for book number 20 last Friday.[00:02:00] 

Tina Strachan: Oh my God. That is huge. Well done. So obviously, of course, we wanted to get you here on the book deal podcast because We know you have a lot of experience and no doubt, some very helpful tips for our listeners and aspiring authors, but not only that, you are a father of a young family and you work full time and somehow you're still pumping out these books.

So I'm looking forward to calling you about how you've managed that. But first I'm going to list off the names of. All your books so far that are out there because there's lots of titles and lots of titles that listeners have probably heard of before, especially if they have little kids. Tell me if I've forgotten any.

We've got Vlad's Bad Breath. Easter Hatastrophe, Vlads in Love. Get back in your books. Rory The Lion Monster School Rules. Sebastian stands out Book Week. Bear my little star Sloths Love parties, which is a favorite in our household. That one I have to say. Uh, Bruno Corn, heart of a Tiger Teachersaurus [00:03:00] and your very latest is 

laugh in the Bath.

Rory H Mather: That's correct. Yep. Got more.

Tina Strachan: Gosh, did I get 'em all? Alrighty. Can we discuss. That's your latest book, Rory. Can you, can you give me the title and the one liner and, and who you with?

Rory H Mather: um, she came along and, yeah, so it's really developed from there.

And it's with Little Book Press, who are part of, um, Raising Literacy Australia, we're a, uh, charity organisation, and they're based out of South Australia, and I really wanted to work with Little Book Press because their publisher is Ali O'Brien. who's got loads of experience in the industry. [00:04:00] Um, used to work for Harley Grant, for example, and I've just seen some of the books that she's worked on and I thought it'd be great to work with her.

Um, and it's been a real joy. So it's illustrated by Brent Wilson, who I know personally, I know you know personally, um, he's a Brisbane illustrator we've met a few times. And what was really cool about this particular book was how it came about. that Brent built the Australia. Um, I've been listening to the podcast.

I know you talk about socials a bit and whatnot. Um, and. What happened was Allie, once we had signed the story, Allie had seen Brent and I together on social media, um, he MC'd the launch I did at the beginning of last year, and she saw that and just thought, why not Brent Wilson? So, yeah, they are, publishers are watching, I guess.

Tina Strachan: Yeah, that is really interesting. That is a great little tip and great inside information there because I did wonder how that happened because obviously you're, I mean, you're Toowoomba based, aren't you?

Rory H Mather: Yeah,

Tina Strachan: So, you know, close ish to Brisbane and, um, [00:05:00] you know, and that scene, I guess, um, that Brisbane scene and, uh, yeah, and like I said, Brent's from Brisbane, so it was, it's quite interesting to have, yeah, two authors from the same sort of.

Scene and getting together for illustrations on your on your book. And I wanted to know if you had asked that, but, um, you said that Ellie just came up with that anyway.

Rory H Mather: yeah. No, she's came up with it. And, um, it was funny because he was on my, um, list of people to ask potentially if I was given the opportunity, but yeah, no, she came up with it. And, um, it's, it's really weird. I got, as you said, 14th book, but this year, um, I've got three books coming out that, uh, I've got four books coming out total, but three books which are with Brisbane Illustrators.

And I'm real excited for that to be able to work with, um, local people and have illustrators attend the launch without having to go interstate. And it's, it's really, I think it helps marketing wise too.

Tina Strachan: Yeah, yeah, that is really good because it's so nice to have the illustrators there too, especially for a picture book. It's so it's. Um, so [00:06:00] important, such an important part of the book.

Rory H Mather: they, they have skills that those of us who are writers just don't, and they can do things at the launches that just make it way more interactive and fun. So it's great to have the opportunity.

Tina Strachan: Yeah, yeah, definitely that draw, like drawing and getting the kids to draw and practice their drawing at launches and workshops is super fun and certainly not something that I could offer at my launch anyway. I don't know how you are with drawing, Laurie.

Rory H Mather: atrocious.

Tina Strachan: okay. So that's really exciting and that's a really interesting story to how you get there, but can you so we're at our 14th book now and Tell me, how did the first one happen?

Can we take it all the way back and, and tell us how you got that very first, yes.

Rory H Mather: Yeah, so my first yes was for, um, the book Vlad's Bad Breath. Um, and that's published by Larrikin House in, came in, came out in 2020. And it came about, um, [00:07:00] I wrote that story in, I think, 2016 or thereabouts, so a few years before it came out. And I spent a few years editing it, because at the time, like all my books are in rhyme, um, but at the time I was okay at rhyme, but not great at rhyme.

So there was a, um, a lot of work that needed to be done editing it. So it was, the bones were there, but it wasn't perfect by any means. And, um, so a few years kind of came by, I was working my craft getting better, and, um, I was really sure that Vlab was published at the beginning of, I think, 2019. I was pretty confident that Vlab was published and it actually came very close to getting over the line with another publisher.

Um, I won't name them, but it ended up being a publisher. I was, I was glad it didn't get over the line with them actually, because I feel like it wouldn't have gotten, um, the brilliant illustrator it got. Um, in Jesus Lopez with Larkin house. And so what happened was

Tina Strachan: for attending

Rory H Mather: in about August, 2019, I just signed with an agent or was talking to an agent.

Actually, it wasn't quite signed yet. [00:08:00] And at that stage, because I wasn't signed, that agent was, I mean, I rang over different texts and she said to me, oh, Vlad's bad breath isn't really one that I'd be interested in, but maybe you should try talking since me and it's Larkin house. They're a new publisher.

Um, they seem all right. So I. Did my research, I straight away went to, um, my local Dymocks. They had two or three books out at the time, so very brand new.

Tina Strachan: of I'd

Rory H Mather: find their books in my local Dymocks, and, um, the quality was there. Like, they felt really good. They, they had, yeah, good quality books. Good, they used good illustrators.

And I thought, yeah, why not? Because that's two things that I really look for, um, in a publisher. Um, quality of the material and distribution. Um, and. So those, with those two things ticked off, I thought, why not? And, um, I sent the book off to, um, Larrakin, to James, and I was minding my own business about six weeks later on a Saturday.

[00:09:00] about taking my dogs for a walk, and I got an email from James, and it just said, Hey Rory, I really enjoyed your text Vlad, it was back then, um, and would you like to talk about it? And I replied, when are you free? Like, and uh, so he called me, he called me, um, on a Saturday, um, to make the offer, and like I was, my wife got a picture of it, I was like bright red and grinning ear to ear, and um, just over the moon, and we, we hadn't gone for a dog walk yet, so we.

Afterwards, we walked the dogs and I was just skipping the whole way, because it was just the most exciting moment after, um, after years of, of writing. So at that stage, that was September, um, 2019. I've been writing since about January 2016. So nearly four years.

Tina Strachan: Yep. Oh, so, so you just submitted to like the slush pile basically at Larikin.

Rory H Mather: Yeah, slush pile, yeah. So I've, I've been successful in the slush pile. I'm agented, um, but I [00:10:00] have been successful in the slush pile twice. So I was successful with Vlad's Bad Breath and I was, um, successful with Sloth's Love Parties.

Tina Strachan: Oh. I love

Rory H Mather: so, um, that was a story, um, that my previous agent had, um, said no to and that was different to my current agent.

My current agent, everything goes through her, um, but my previous agent, um, we had an arrangement where if she wasn't. In on the text, um, if she didn't vibe with it I guess, she was, I was free to do what I wanted with it, and, so I submitted Sloth Love Parties to, um, I think four or five publishers, um, and, they were open at the time, so like, there was Walker Wednesdays, I think it was, or it might have been, I think it actually, you know, it was when Walker was only open once, no, twice a year.

So I sent it off to them, um, sent it off to, I think, Hardie Grant, a few others, and about eight months went by, and I got that email, um, again, [00:11:00] after hours, about 5. 30, um, in the afternoon, um, from Coral at Affirm, and it was just a, we'd We really like your text, um, and would you be interested in discussing, is it still available?

And would you be interested in discussing potentially, um, signing it? And it was still a few months before, um, it got over the line because it still had to go through, um, acquisitions at that stage. But yeah,

Tina Strachan: That's incredible. What an incredible story. I think it's really important, for aspiring authors to realize as well that even published authors do get rejected. Right. Like, so, you know, yeah, like you still have to go through the slash file and it's not just, it's not just, you get one deal and then that's it.

You just can write on that for the rest of your life and write whatever you want. They all get signed.

Rory H Mather: I, before I was signed, I always, I, I, I started writing around the time when, um, Aaron Blaby was having his golden age of success with, um, like Piranhas, Don't Eat Bananas and, [00:12:00] um, Don't Call Me Bear and I Need a Hug, obviously Pig the Pug and whatnot. And I just thought, well, Pig the Pug's a slam dunk. There must be something, obviously, and all the rest of them are too, they're all brilliant.

Um, but I just thought, maybe, um, because he's had, having the success, they're just taking everything, because everything he puts out is gems. Um, and sometimes I, I, sometimes I naively think that everything I'm writing is gems. It's not the case. Um, but no, I, I, You said earlier, like, I've got a, I work full time, I've got a, um, young child, so I am riding between the cracks, but I am pretty prolific with what I write.

But I would say, last year I wrote, well, last year I know I wrote 20 stories, um, and of the 20 so far, two have been, no, three have been picked up.

Tina Strachan: Okay.

Rory H Mather: I've written, that's in one year, but I've been writing since 2016, and so I've got like hundreds of stories, [00:13:00] and when I say two or three have been picked up, I've submitted, like, well last year I submitted probably, through my agent, um, I'd say at least 10 to 12. And most of them, most of them, uh, are, it's not, I do get, the benefit of having an agent is that you do get a response. Um, so generally the response, most common responses are, we've just got something like this on, on the, um, on the books at the moment, or this is just isn't quite right for us right now.

Tina Strachan: Um,

Rory H Mather: um, our list is currently a bit full, and I think what's important to remember when you're aspiring or whether you're published is that a no isn't a no necessarily based on the quality of your text, it can be a no for a heap of different reasons, and I can't, I've, I'd say about half a dozen times I've had no's because it's something similar to work.

So I, um, I love, uh, Cat and Joel Temple's, [00:14:00] um, Cat and Joel Temple's, uh, bin chicken books. But in, in 2019, just after I'd, um, signed Vlads Bad Breath, I'd written the bin chicken book. My, um, agent had sent it off to Scholastic and We had an anxious wait of about six weeks before we got the, the no, which was that they just signed something similar.

And I had to wait, I think, about, about a year or so or more before I got to see what that something similar was. And, yeah, the answer was, um, the brilliant bin chicken. And, obviously, the Sparta series. So, yeah, I think, yeah, it's, it's important to remember why sometimes you get a no.

Tina Strachan: Yeah, that is really important and it's hard and it's hard when you don't get that feedback because you are just, you know, you're an aspiring author without anything published yet unagented and you're just sending to slash files and so you don't really get that feedback, which is hard. So I guess it's just, I suppose it's just important to recognize that that is something that happens and to keep that in mind yourself and, um, Yeah, I don't really know what the answer is to [00:15:00] knowing if it's, um, if it is the writing.

And I guess maybe that's where critique groups and, um, writing courses and workshops and maybe mentorships and things can help you understand if that is the case. So you can get to the bottom of that and sort of, you know, if everything seems to be okay there, just like tick that box off and think, okay, it's not that it is probably just all these other factors that come into play.

Rory H Mather: Yeah, I think it's, you've spoken a few times about, um, conferences like CYA, and I think those are the opportunities, those and competitions, like, and the competitions at CYA are the same where they offer feedback, opportunities for feedback, like critique groups, competitions, and editorial assessments are brilliant for giving you that little bit, bit extra information.

So, um, yeah. A few of the first stories I ever wrote, I submitted to, um, an agent at CYA in 2017. So at that stage I've been writing, well, when I submitted them I've probably been writing for 12 months. And, um, [00:16:00] And I'm a bit different to a lot of people you speak to, um, in that I, I never had an imposter syndrome.

I always thought, oh, well, um, these are really clever concepts. Someone's going to love these and very naive. Um, and cause none of them have been picked up even since I've been published. Um, I sent these stories off to that, um, assessment and it was such an eye opening, brilliant experience for me. Cause, um, it, it showed me that the feedback I got.

Which is such common sense feedback, because I, there's so many courses out there you can do on writing, um, but one of them, for example, was that my story was a good story, but it was about half the length of a picture book. So, um, way too short, and I was like, huh, never really, I was, like, I was working in public libraries, I was reading picture books as part of my job, doing story time, and yet I'd never counted the pages in a picture book to know that they're either [00:17:00] 32 or 24, and this thing was 16.

So Yeah, like I think, um, having, doing those, taking those opportunities to find feedback where you can, um, how you can separate, um, the true, uh, reasons why you might be getting a no.

Tina Strachan: Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Thank you for mentioning assessments because I, they are really good opportunity, aren't they? And you're actually being assessed by, you know, you can, you know, have professional editors or actual publishers and, you know, they're the ones that you're hoping to get in front of eventually.

So their information is like gold, isn't it?

Rory H Mather: Yeah, well, at that, that session I did in 2017 was with an agent who wasn't interested in picture books. I just had left it so late that I, um, I thought, well, better her than no one. Um, and despite not being, um, a agent for picture books, she still gave me the critical feedback that made me, um, Leave CYA and then go [00:18:00] and do a deep dive and study picture books and spend two years trying to perfect my craft.

Um, and writing heaps of stories in that time too, meant that two years later when I went back to CYA, I did get to sit down with an agent and that later ended up becoming my agent. And I did get the contact details of, um, a publisher at Scholastic and things like that. So I think taking this opportunity where you can is very important.

Tina Strachan: Yeah, so, and that's one of the benefits. Do you think of having an agent? Is that you, you know, you are always getting a response and is, do you feel like, because I'm on agented, I don't have an agent. And so, you know, do you feel like it's someone that you can bounce ideas and suggestions off or is there still a bit of a

Rory H Mather: Well, my agent is, my agent is incredible. Um, she's the loveliest Margaret Connolly. But what's interesting is that, um, I can tell if Margaret likes a story, because if, if Margaret likes a story, I'll get a phone call [00:19:00] within 24 hours. If Margaret doesn't like a story, sometimes I want to hear back at all.

And I mean, to be fair, Margaret has like over 50 clients. So like, and that's important to remember when you're submitting. To an agent or to a publisher, or if you're signed to an agent or with a publisher, you're one person they're dealing with and they're dealing with a lot of people. Um, but no, oftentimes, um, I do get good feedback from Margaret or, um, just she'll, she'll, What she'll say to me is, Rory, this is, this is, this is really good, but I want you to think, just spend the weekend, spend a couple of days, just think if you could maybe make this better.

If you can't, that's fine. Um, just have, have, have a reflection on, might be a particular line, um, might be a, an arc in the story, but, um, yeah, she is good at giving the feedback. But she probably, particularly gives feedback on something that she's, that she believes in, um, that just isn't quite there yet.

Tina Strachan: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That's handy. Isn't it? Can I [00:20:00] ask how you got your agent? Yeah.

Rory H Mather: I pitched two stories, and, um, and I knew, I'd studied up on her, I'd gone to a talk she'd given, um, at State Library Queensland, and I knew what she was looking for, and I, pitch stories I knew she'd like, and she actually didn't like them, but, um, I, I was able to show her, um, I said, what are you, what are you looking for?

And I made a point of very quickly drafting something that was what she was looking for and seeing off to, and that, and that got the interest going.

But, um, I think there's, there's a few ways to get it, I guess. But yeah, that's how it happened with me. And I, I do think it was just the stars aligning in the universe for me because Mark has been marvelous to work with.

Tina Strachan: Yeah. Oh, that's that's interesting. That's a really good story. And like you said, it's not usual though, is it? But it's um, it's I guess about making connections as well and just following up on [00:21:00] those connections.  

Marion Taffe: Hello, I'm Marion Taffe, and my debut historical fiction, By Her Hand, is out now with Harper Collins Fourth Estate. By Her Hand is set in the Kingdom of Mercia in the early 10th century, so this is England before it was England. At its heart, though, this is the story of one girl's struggle to ensure her destiny is written by her hand.

That girl is Frieda, who thinks in poetry, and dreams of being able to write. But when she barely survives a Viking raid, she is taken to live in an abbey, and there she finds a passion for the written word, while also being torn between her growing rage and her need to belong. The bishop takes special interest in Frieda's education, and as she chafes against his control, She comes into the orbit of Lady Athelflaed, the woman who rules Mercia.

[00:22:00] And she sees what it is to be a woman with power in this world of warriors. Eventually, Frieda is inspired to write her rage into a poem about Judith, who beheads the enemy Holofernes. It is a poem that has the power to forge a kingdom, and the power to destroy everything Frieda holds dear. So though it's historical, this novel grapples with many issues we still face today, gendered violence and war, but also the gatekeeping of story and the manipulation of truth.

Who gets to hold the pen and who controls the narrative? I hope you enjoy.  

Tina Strachan: But can you tell me, cancelling a story at the 11th hour? That is, that's unusual though, isn't it?

Rory H Mather: Probably pretty unusual, but I, I do know a few people who it's, who it's happened to, and I, I like to think of it as like a little badge of honor. Like, um, [00:23:00] if it's, it's, it's going to happen at some point. Um, I'm glad I'm actually so many good things came from that cancellation that, that I can't begrudge it 

The reasons they had for cancelling it were like, I was, there were worries that I'd had and not voiced and then, uh, their sales team were like, Ooh, and I was like, yes, I agree.

So yeah,

Tina Strachan: Okay. Yeah. Oh, that's good. That's interesting. Um, and yeah, so yeah, it's interesting what you say about you just sort of having worries there as well in the back of your mind and then someone else picking up on it. So I guess, like you said, it was meant to be that,

Rory H Mather: yeah, definitely meant to be.

Tina Strachan: Yeah. Okay.

And look, that's a, that's what other way can you look at it? Hey, like these things happen and we know how things shift and change and, you know, staff change and stuff move and, you know, things, things happen all the time or a book comes out exactly like it was. At the exact same time. And yeah, that's tricky.

Rory H Mather: last year, I remember, um, there [00:24:00] was, I think it was last year, maybe the year before even, there was two books, not, not ones I'd written or was involved in, but I remember two books came out the exact same day, exact same title, one was from the UK, one was from Australia, but being Australia, they were both released in Australia as well, and, um, I thought, oh, that's, you can't, like, you can't do anything about that, like, the universe is just happening, and the ideas are out there, and yeah, sometimes it works out that way.

Yeah.

Tina Strachan: I spent so long before I, um, before I submitted to, um, yeah, any competitions or anything like that. I had actually been writing a picture book, which I don't, um, do a lot of, but I just, this story just came to me because, you know, I think they do when you have little kids too. Like it's just the things that they do make you go, Oh, that's hilarious.

And I thought I'm going to write that down and I'm, I don't write. Rhyme, but it was in rhyme. Like it just came to me in rhyme. And so I spent a lot of time trying to, you know, go through, learn rhyme, you know, like the whole meter and [00:25:00] just understanding that which is just an art form in itself. And I really liked it.

I thought it was really funny. There was some things that I had to, you know, fix up on it and the kids enjoyed it. And then just one day I was at the shop and I was like, Oh my God, there is a book with the exact same title as what I had called it. And because it was a picture book, like the title was very telling of what the story was.

So there's still like. My story was different and it was in rhyme, whereas the other one, the other one wasn't, but it was like, there's no way anyone, so I just went right. Okay, well, that one's done because there's no way anyone's going to pick that up now because there's something, you know, similar on the shelves.

Rory H Mather: I would say, um, you know, Tina, you're, you're fairly young. I think you should play the long game. Keep that, keep that story in your, um, folder and then give it five years and submit it. Maybe see if you can, see if you can come up with a new title, see if you can make any changes to it in five years time, maybe like, you know, your mind space changes a bit, but definitely don't give up on that.

I've got, I've got particularly, there's [00:26:00] one story in particular, um, that I wrote, um, two years ago. And I was so proud of this story. I was like, Oh, this is, it's not, it's not humor. It's just a, it's a very, um, poignant story about like the environment and stuff. And I was like, this is genius. Everyone's going to love this.

And I showed, I showed it to people and I made, I made the old lady cry. Um, and. And I thought, oh, this is such a great story. And I showed one friend who's in the industry and she's like, Oh, that's like this story. I was like, Oh no, similar title.

Tina Strachan: like, look it up and go, Oh, again, so it's like, Oh, Oh,

Rory H Mather: who makes that decision. I think, you know, your story was similar to that other story, but you know, someone else could see it differently. So I, I just. put the facts in an email [00:27:00] to my agent, um, said there's this story, and this story was a CBCA winner too by the way team, it wasn't like, I don't know how I missed it, um, but I missed it, and um,

Tina Strachan: So that's it. So

Rory H Mather: you know what, she also didn't want to say no, she was like, I'll show it to the publisher.

Um, We showed it to Scholastic and we gave them all the facts and they said, nah, no, too similar. But, that, that story was a CBCA winner in, I think it was, somewhere in the late teens, like 17, 18, 19 area. And I thought, well, you know what, at the time I was, um, 22, no, not 22, 32. Um, I intend on being writing, I intend on being a picture book author for the rest of my life.

So I'll give it 10 years, um, and I'll resubmit it. And, um, It might still be a no then, or it might not. Or maybe 10 years [00:28:00] time, um, I'll try it in a different market, like in the US market or in the UK market. So I don't, I don't think you should write off your idea.

Tina Strachan: Yep. Okay. I'll, I'll put it to the side, but, and there's nothing wrong with being similar is there that's, um, often, you know, if, if a book is successful, then a lot of similar books will be written off, you know, the back of that and around that, like just using the example of vampire books, you know, um, didn't like romance hockey, hockey books about, um, You know, have been a big thing as well.

Um, you know, people just, if, if it's been successful, then publishers are like, something about that's working, you know, obviously not being the same story, but with a similar vibe or a similar thing.

Rory H Mather: I, um, I borrowed a book from my local library late last year that was called Vlad, and it was about a vampire, um, and I thought, how dare they, and I, I had, I saw it and I had to read it just to make sure it wasn't a copy, it was from the US, it was a much bigger budgeted book, did way [00:29:00] better than Vlad's Bad Breath, um, completely different, but yeah, I guess that the, the, Vlad's a common name for a vampire, but one thing I would say related to this though, is that if you're an aspiring author, um, or any author, and you have an idea for a story, um, and you do your googling and you see there's something similar, still write your idea, because you never know at what point through that idea, you'll have a little brainwave that will make yours go in a different direction, or, um, or just make it potentially even better than the one that's already out there and, um, someone else sees it differently.

Tina Strachan: That's it. Yeah. You're a different person with different thoughts and a different voice, and you're definitely going to come up with a different story. Um, not one person can ever,

Rory H Mather: If nothing else, if nothing else, every time you write, you get, you're improving, so always write your ideas.

Tina Strachan: That's right. Yeah. Very good advice. 

Can you give us some tips though on dealing with rejections? Because that's [00:30:00] certainly something that happens to all of us and is just part of the biz, isn't it?

Rory H Mather: It is, um, I, I just think, uh, I, I read a post by Sean Avery once, Sean Avery once, where he just said, get a rejection. write something new. Um, your agent's not responding, write something new. And I think that's all you can do really. Like, like, rejections are part of the industry. I, I've written stories where I'm like, this is a shoe in with this publisher.

Publishers have got good relationships with and, um, for whatever reason, it's just not. And, um, that, those rejections can be more disappointing, but there's always, um, there's always other publishers, there's always, um, good reasons for rejection, and there's always other stories to write. I think the, yeah, so if you're, if you focus too much on that one story, I mean, it'd be definitely harder in your world where you're writing novels, I guess.

Um, but with picture books, I mean, [00:31:00] obviously you, you care about what you've written, but it probably hasn't taken you that long to write it. Um, and I think for like, yeah, it's just a, it's just part of the industry at the end of the day. So. All you can do is, you can feel sad for a little bit, but then get back on the horse and keep going.

Tina Strachan: Keep writing. Yep. Yeah. That's very common advice where we ask authors for, um, yeah, what's their tips for rejection. It's like, yeah, feel sorry for yourself for a little bit and then suck it up and keep on going. So yeah, I think that's the

Rory H Mather: Don't write a strongly, don't write a strongly worded email, um, the point.

Tina Strachan: No, don't, don't, uh, put it all over socials about, but I mean, you definitely, definitely can like, you know, you see lots of people on socials, you know, um, openly talking about, um, the disappointment of rejections, which is good because it does, you know, I guess normalize it for everybody and, and yeah, kind of helps people remember.

Rory H Mather: that's what our community [00:32:00] is about. It's about, like, if you can be open and honest about The highs or lows, um, in the community. Don't need to let the publishers or, um, or agents know or hear about it. Keep it in house. Um, we'll all commiserate or celebrate and we'll go on together.

Tina Strachan: Yeah. Yeah. Good advice. So Rory, uh, you have many books now and, um, so I really want to know how, how do you make it work? Because you are busy and as many of our aspiring authors are, uh, working and with a family, how are you finding the time when, do you have a routine? Are you someone that just kind of writes on the fly?

Um, yeah. Yeah. How are you getting the words? Down, and when are you getting the votes down?

Rory H Mather: Um, I definitely don't have a routine and it's, it's, yeah, definitely more on the fly than anything else. Um, I, I tend to wait. I don't, I don't go looking for the ideas. [00:33:00] So, um, a lot of people I know have a routine. They'll get up early in the morning and write for an hour. Um, and I wish I could do that. But, um, No, I tend to wait till the idea, um, fully evolves in my head, and sometimes it's really quick, sometimes it's really, it takes forever, um, my next book that comes out, um, not, not, not laughing the bath, um, my next book that comes out, I wrote on, on my phone when my daughter was two weeks old, and I was holding her in one arm and texting myself on the other, with, with, with the story, so, I think, um, for me, ideas tend to come, um, I'll hear, I'll hear someone say something, or I'll, Or, I'll just think of a turn of a phrase and that will spark the idea.

And, um, yeah, so I just tend to write when the time, when I get some time. And my wife's really supportive, so like, I'll say, Hey, I've just an idea for a story, can you give me half an hour? And even if I don't finish it in half an hour, I can get the bare bones down and then go back and edit it later on.

Tina Strachan: Yeah. Yeah. I was [00:34:00] going to ask, so are you writing the whole thing or are you just like jotting down the idea that's come to you? Like, I want a story that's about this, or you've actually got some lines in your head.

Rory H Mather: Generally, I try to get down the whole idea, um, but yeah, it really comes down to time constraints. Um, one of the more recent stories I wrote, um, I was putting, I had the idea whilst at work through the day, and then I, so I text myself the, like, the broad idea, and then I was just so excited to write this story, and I knew I was going to have time once my daughter was asleep.

Um, so I was in her, in her room putting her to sleep, giving her a bottle, um, but the idea was just coming and I was like, and I do, I think of lines. And so sometimes I worry that you can, you can remember an idea, but sometimes you'll forget a line. So if I hear, if I think of a really good line, I'll be like, Oh, I've got to write that down.

So. Um, that night I, um, was [00:35:00] h holding the bottle in one hand and trying to keep my phone's light away from my daughter so she'd go to sleep, um, with the other. So, like, texting like crazy was this idea. When I got out of the, her room, I went, sat down to write it and most of the idea was already written on my phone.

Tina Strachan: That's good. I do have to say, I've definitely, um, got some words down or even like researching for, um, you know, a part that I'm at in my book when I've been lying there with the kids, like when they were really little, like trying to get them to go to sleep or go back to sleep.

And then you've just got your phone down the side, like all the, the, um, the light down the lowest it could possibly go. So it's not, not waking them up, but yeah, it's kind of like a forced the nap trap, you know, when they fall asleep on you and you're trapped by the. By the nap. Um, and you're forced to sort of just sit there and do nothing but give them a nice squishy cuddle, but also get some words down that can be quite handy.

Rory H Mather: yeah, I always find I'm right, I'll be, um, trying to text left handed, I'm right handed, so I [00:36:00] find that harder, and I'll be, my, my neck will be at an odd angle, and it's always like that when you, and you, even though that light's at the most, um, as, as low as it can go, it still seems so bright in a dark room.

Tina Strachan: It does. It does. I know. And you can't possibly move because you just can't wake them up. But yes. Um, now look, uh, in an ideal world for a lot of writers, just the idea of just sort of writing full time and not having to go to work and just making enough money so that they can just stay home and write is like the dream for a lot of people.

Um, so you're, I mean, you still are working full time. Like you said. But you have been able to make writing profitable for you. Can you, can you share a little bit about that? Like, how, like, do you have any tips or suggestions or what works well for you? How can people actually make money out of this?

Basically.

Rory H Mather: Yeah, no worries, um, so, that dream is definitely my dream, I'd love to, um, make this my full time, um, job, [00:37:00] but I think, so for me, When I had, I think, three or four books out, I had a friend who was a teacher say, Hey, can you come to, um, do a presentation to our class? And I'd put together some stuff, um, very last minute because I, um, I wasn't a good planner.

And I put, put the stuff together and it worked. It worked, um, for that session, but I just knew it could work better. So what I did was I, um, fleshed it out. And I, I think. You might not have anything brand new to say if you're going to school visits or, or talks. You might not have anything particularly brand new to say, but it's brand new to the person you're saying it to.

So, if you want to, um, create, do a, create a

Tina Strachan: [00:38:00] Okay.

Rory H Mather: experience. So I've spoken to in front of crowds of 400. Um, I did that last year and I was nervous as all hell.

I was doing a presentation I'd never done before to 400 high school students. But I was forced to do that because, um, the school asked for a specific topic. Um, and I was like, oh no, I don't actually have anything on this. So I had to create something and just hope it worked. And it did work. But, um, I think, yeah, create, create some content.

Um, because

Tina Strachan: Yeah.

Rory H Mather: is from speaking engagements. The ASA set out the, the, the rates of pay. They're pretty good rates of pay. They're definitely higher than my day job rates. So I only did, um, maybe, um, eight or [00:39:00] nine visits last year, but, um, that eight or nine visits was definitely the highest part of my income.

And then. Over time as well, um, your other part of your income is, um, royalties as well as ELR, PLR, so make sure you register for ELR, PLR, education lending rights and public lending rights, um, that's money paid by the government and it's a, it's a thing that, uh, It takes a fair while to see any return on it, so a book gets registered before March each year, um, but it has to be in for about 12 months before you see any, um, return.

So, Tina, with your book coming out on Wednesday, you'd register it now and you're lucky it's early in the year, so it'll get to come to the full cycle and you'll get paid next year.

Tina Strachan: Okay.

Rory H Mather: so last year, I had the [00:40:00] same ELR, the year before, um, and it's based on how many times your book gets used by public libraries, or borrowed by public libraries, or in school libraries, yeah, borrowed, or photocopied, or Um, using a class sort of thing.

Um, this year, I'm expecting to see it jump because there's, there's books that have been in circulation now for, um, like all my books from 2023, um, came out after the registration period for 2023. Um, so they didn't get, they didn't get any payment, I didn't get any payment for them last year. Then plus lots of parties I'll get paid for this year.

So last year, I was able to see my income for writing double. Um, and it was in double figures. So that was positive.

Tina Strachan: Silence.

Rory H Mather: just like the dream to be published. It's, it's another dream that you're working towards.

So doing more school [00:41:00] visits. Um,

Tina Strachan: Silence.

Rory H Mather: uh, Western Australia and, um, go on, go on the road and all that, and that's my dream for sure, but that's a very competitive market and, um, I think you've got to walk before you, uh, sorry, crawl before you can walk, so you've got to, um, you don't want to be testing your material on, on a big world tour, you want to be testing it in, with, with a, with your mates who are teachers first maybe, and, so do that, and then hopefully you'll get really good at it, hopefully, um, your publishers will help with marketing, they're pitching you already to those sort of festivals, So, um, and hopefully you get there because that's, I think the fest, the big festivals are, um, where the, where the opportunities come.

I think once you've had a couple of them, you probably get invited back next year, the year after, and that's where I think people who are, who are full time authors, um, they might be on the road for three months of the year and [00:42:00] like with a young family, that's not viable for me. Um,

Tina Strachan: Um,

Rory H Mather: But, it, it's definitely, you can do it, you can, I work a nine day fortnight, so I can do a school visit every fortnight if I want to, I don't, I don't, I don't have the, um, the, no one's chasing me that much.

But, um, I'm ready if they, if they want to, if they listen to the podcast. Um, and if you, once you've got your book out there, and you've, you've polished your material up a bit, then you can approach a speaker, a speaker's agency and see whether they'll take you on. And they'll be picking you to clients then too.

So, I'm with, um, Creative Kid's Tales Speaker's Agency and Speakers Inc. Um, there's a few other ones out there. Le Monde's have one, I'm pretty sure. Um, and So get, get in with them once you can, obviously you're competing against every other creative writer, um, there is, but as I said, like you, you can do something slightly different or, um, yeah, just, it is, it is, it is an industry where you really got to market yourself [00:43:00] and, um, Because publishers, they'll put, they'll put a little bit of marketing behind you.

But for me being in Toowoomba, um, most of my publishers are in Sydney or Melbourne. So there's nothing really they can do on the ground here that's going to, um, reach the schools and whatnot. So it's word of mouth. It's, um, like trying to get an article about your book in the, in the local paper. And then the grandparents see that and they're like, Oh, you should get such and such to your, your grandkids school.

And yeah, there are sorts of things.

Tina Strachan: Yeah. That's awesome. That's really awesome advice. It's a lot of different things, isn't it? Like, so, but schools seem to be, um, a really good one to go to. And do you find, what are the topics that they sort of want you to speak to? Is it more about how to write or is it about particular themes?

Rory H Mather: So my first, my first few times I went to schools was just, um, it was the preps in grade one just want me to read my stories. And that was, that was more nerve wracking than anything because, um, even though that's my background, I used to do story [00:44:00] times, um, in, um, public libraries. Yeah, I, that was more nerve wracking than anything else because even Well, particularly when I only had one book, I was like, well, I can't do a whole story time with one book. I've got to read some other books. So I'd take other people's books along to my story time and be like, and this is my friend's book.

And, and, but even then you can only read so many books, like realistically, maybe five books or six books before you're going to lose your attention. So you'll be asking questions to, to, um, get them engaged and that sort of thing. Um, but the, for me. If you, if you know any teachers, ask them what's, um, in the curriculum.

So, for me, I only took a few of those visits before, um, I, I found out that, um, I, like, I'd be talking about the books to just asking those probing questions to get the kids engaged. And I just found out, you know, like grade two, they're learning about rhyme and, um, and, and puns and things like that. So they would, they get puns and they, they want to test it out.

Or, um, I know in, in grade five, they're doing a big, in [00:45:00] Queensland, at least, they do like a big, um, creative writing. , term, and um, I, I've only discovered that by, I, I've got friends who are teachers, but no one, none of them told me, unfortunately, could have learnt quicker, um, but I found out that because I went to a school, and, um, they had things up on, like, they had projects that they were studying different authors, they were studying their books, and then Fast forward a year, I was in a school, um, for a full day and I went to one class and this one little girl had done a deep dive on Royal Line and, um, broken it down and had a picture of me up on there.

And, um, yeah, so like, I think, yeah, study, if you can study, find out what's in the curriculum. Um, ask your friends, ask your teachers. Um, sometimes your publishers will provide teaching notes and if they've got teaching notes and you can use them to base your, um, sessions off too.

Tina Strachan: That's really good advice. Um, and yes, nerve wracking, but that's good advice too. If you do know anyone with. Kids or teachers or just any [00:46:00] connections to the schools to ask them about that, just to make it relevant. Cause I think you also have to make it as easy as possible for them, right? Like, you know, that you are competing with lots of other authors to get in there.

So sort of maybe having a point of difference and, um, yeah, making it easy. Like, this is how I fit into the curriculum. This is what I can offer you. Um, instead of being like, what do you want? Like maybe that's

Rory H Mather: Yeah, and, and this has been my first, my first year where I've actively sort of reached out to, like, started reaching out to schools. Every, every visit I've done up to this point, I've done, um, two smaller festivals, have been from, um, people, all in Queensland, um, searching the web and finding or finding my books in libraries and then going to my website and reaching out that way.

So people are looking for you, um, but yeah, make it easy for them, put some content up on your website, um, put a contact thing up on the, on your website to make it easy for them. And one other quick tip, if you go into a school, um, [00:47:00] take a spare pair of pants or a spare outfit because you never know when a zipper's going to break.

you're going to tear some pants. And I've had, I've had both of those happen in one day. So

Tina Strachan: That is very good practical advice. Thank you. Oh, that good, good tip. I was going to ask you, um, uh, you know, aside from school visits, just in general for the, um, you know, aspiring authors out there, what is your number one top tip for aspiring authors who want to get their first book deal?

Rory H Mather: I think my number one top tip is to acknowledge what you are. So I don't think you're an author if you've got your book out, I think you're an author because you're writing a book. Um, so acknowledge yourself to, to your, to your friends, your family, um, find, find the community, Instagram, social media, all that sort of stuff, and just.

Yell out to the world that I'm an author because for me that was a big factor, um, that [00:48:00] got me out there. So I, I, I came, I was placed here in the competition, um, and part of what was judged was your social media presence and I had none. Um, And I, um, so I created a website, created a social media overnight, and it was amazing how, how having people support that people having people, um, like saying that your goal, your dream is to be a published author.

And then I mean that on, on social media, wherever people want to see you achieve your dream. And I think that almost. gave me the drive. There probably would be times where I felt like giving up, but I have all these people watching and I knew that I couldn't give up then. Cause, and then when I did finally get that first book deal, the, the amount, like everyone was so excited.

I had, I used to do the hashtag get Rory published and, and. Um, when I finally got published, when Blades of Red Breath, when I announced that Blades of Red Breath was, um, going to be published, you should have, like, [00:49:00] everyone I spoke to would be like, congratulations! And, and, and like, that just adds to your own excitement, and I think, so yeah, acknowledge what you are, acknowledge that you're an author, um, and then, then take the steps to make it happen, so like, you can't just acknowledge you're an author and then, um, it's not just about sitting behind your desk and writing, it's about being engaged in your community, going to conferences, trying Um, and doing those sorts of things, entering competitions.

Tina Strachan: Yeah, that's really good advice. And cause I was, I actually didn't, I mean, before I was published, I, it, I had to win a competition though, to give me the confidence to, to create like an author profile on social media and stuff like that. But I think there's a little bit of, um, uh, Manifesting in doing that as well.

Do you think like I, I, I, I do think like if you just do it, then, you know, you're taking those steps. I don't know if you call it manifesting or if it's just you're taking those steps that are needed to get towards the goal that you want. So just do it and it's just gonna [00:50:00] help you get there. It's a little bit closer to your goal.

Rory H Mather: think, I think it's, it's a bit of a, um, it's a bit of a numbers game and a willingness to pursue the dream. Like if you, it's a difficult industry to break into and you have to be willing to make changes. You have to be willing to like take on feedback and, and work with it. But I honestly believe that if you're, if you're constantly writing, constantly reading, seeing what's out there and willing to take on feedback.

I feel like if you're, and, and taking the opportunities that come up, so like entering competitions, going to festivals, um, just keeping an eye out for any possibilities of pitching to it, pitching to the right person for you. not just anyone, make sure it's the right person for you. I feel like it's, um, the odds of getting a deal are pretty high.

Like they're, they're, they're not, they're still probably less than 50%, but 50 percent if you, if you're only submitting one story, the more [00:51:00] stories you write, the more you pitch, the odds are exponentially higher. So you just got to be doing it.

Tina Strachan: Yeah. Yes. We have interviewed authors before that have said it's a numbers game sometimes. Like, I mean, obviously you have to have the quality of the writing and the, and the, the ideas and everything has to still, you know, be of, you know, publishable standard, I guess, but it's, it's just a numbers game.

Just keep putting it out there and keep trying and don't give up.

Rory H Mather: Yeah, well, you know, in that first three and a half years of writing, I wrote, I would say, 30 to 40 stories. And to this day, most of them are still just sitting in the folder on my laptop, because they weren't up to a standard. I, at the time, I thought they were. I was seeing them out into the world, thinking, they're mad they don't sign me.

Um, but they weren't. And, but every time you write a story, you do get better. So it really, yeah, it really is a numbers game.

Tina Strachan: Yeah. And that's all, that is all part of it, isn't it? It's practice. And I remember listening to podcasts and hearing people say, Oh, you know, I [00:52:00] spent four years writing these things and these manuscripts that aren't published. And I just used to think, Oh my God, that is so long. That's, that's never going to happen to me.

Um, you know, 20 years later, I'm like, you know, um, so, but it really does in the times passing anyway. Right. So you might, if you enjoy writing, just keep writing. It's gonna. Yeah. Yeah. Make you better at it. And, um, yeah, numbers game. Keep putting it out there. Um,

Rory H Mather: getting, I didn't ask for it, but I got it. Um, I got feedback from someone who I really respected, who was really blunt to the point. It was Siggy Cohen, um, author of My Dead Bunny, who's really, really good at rhyme.

And he was, he was the person who told me, um, you know, your rhymes aren't up to scratch. So you're singing, it's meeting all your stories and your rhymes aren't up to scratch. So, um, and he really forced me to. [00:53:00] up my, my, my practice of rhyming and, um, so I think having that, having someone who's willing to give you critical feedback, as long as you respect them, and, um, and you don't have to take it on, sometimes critical feedback is just critical, but sometimes it resonates and yeah.

Tina Strachan: Yeah. And that's probably like with any skill that you're learning. Um, yeah, sometimes it can be harsh, but you know, it's as long as it's, um, helpful and you can learn from that. That's really good advice. So, um, at the risk of you offering me harsh advice, no, I'm sure that you won't. This is mine and Madeline's debut year.

Um, like my book comes out in two days. Um, so close now. Do you have any tips for us in our debut year? Transcript.

Rory H Mather: times. I'll like it every time. And, um, you know, but also do be aware that people do get sick because they seem the same content. So, um, [00:54:00] see if you see if you can find other things to share, but like your book launch and stuff like that, but no, just.

Enjoy it. Um, I think it's never, this is going to sound, um, bad, but it's never as good as the first time, like it's always exciting to get a book deal. But the first one's always the best and the first release is always the best. I remember my first book launch, I felt like a celebrity because I had a queue of people lining, waiting up to sign my book.

And I was like, Oh, well, well, all right, but. I think, um, yeah, just embrace it. Enjoy that moment and, um, seize every opportunity that you can. It's, um, yeah, take leave, speak to your publisher. I think even if, even if you don't recoup the money, go, go to Sydney or go to Melbourne and just do a little bookshop tour or tour wherever you can.

Go to Brisbane. I know it's closer. Um, yeah, do it.

Tina Strachan: Uh,

Rory H Mather: come to Toowoomba. If you come to Toowoomba, if you come to Toowoomba, I will, um, [00:55:00] we'll do a launch, um, and I'll share it to every person I know, and yeah, we'll hopefully sell a few books.  

Tina Strachan: Oh, thank you, Rory. It's been so great chatting to you today and so many amazing tips and advice that you've offered not just to me, but to our listeners as well, which is incredible.

So are you happy if we wrap it up there or is

Rory H Mather: Thank you so much for having me. It's been a real pleasure. 

Tina Strachan: Thank you for listening to the book deal podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the pod so you can receive updates as soon as our new apps drop. And to keep up to date with what the pod is doing, you can also find us on Instagram.