The Book Deal
Motivation and inspiration for emerging writers, helping them pave their own pathway to publishing success.
The Book Deal
Advances, royalties, pirated books and other ways authors may (or may not) earn money
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In this episode of the Book Deal podcast, hosts Tina Strachan and Madeleine Cleary explore the multifaceted landscape of author earnings, from advances and royalties to additional income streams like ELR/PLR, speaking engagements and library visits. They discuss the financial realities authors face, such as the impact of book piracy, including the recent revelations that Meta used the pirated-book database Library Genesis to train its AI. Pirated works includes members of the 2025 Debut Crew, who have only just been published in Australia.
The Debut Author in the Spotlight is James Hinchon, author of 'Llamas in the Library,' published by Five Mile and released on 1 February 2025.
00:00 Welcome to the Book Deal Podcast
00:43 Newsletter Launch Announcement
01:20 Our Updates
10:36 Social Media and AI Piracy Concerns
16:25 How Authors Make Money
19:51 Introducing James Hinchon and His Debut Book
21:07 Earning Money as an Emerging Writer
22:05 Understanding Book Advances
22:53 The Reality of Earning Out
23:34 The Flip Side of Advances
24:09 Breaking Down a Six-Figure Deal
26:55 Royalties Explained
28:43 Additional Revenue Streams for Authors
33:10 Library Lending and Author Compensation
34:52 The Importance of Supporting Authors
42:05 Realistic Goals and Aspirations
44:19 Final Thoughts and Tips
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Tina Strachan children's book author
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Madeleine Cleary | Author
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This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories, the authors behind your favorite books. No matter what sage of writing you are at, we've got you covered. I'm Tina Strachan. And I'm Madeleine Cleary, and join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors one deal at a time. The book Deal Podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on. And pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging. It's Madeleine here. I just wanted to quickly drop in and say that for those who want to stay in the know, Tina and I have just launched our newsletters. We'll be sharing all the details We don't get to cover in our monthly catch up episodes, and if you sign up. You'll be absolutely hearing our news first. You'll also go into the draw to win a free copy of our books, including an early copy of my debut novel, The Butterfly Women. Signing Up is free and we promise we won't inundate you. It'll just be our news every couple of months. You can find the links on our websites or in the show notes of this week's episode. We hope you enjoy.
Tina Strachan:Do we do we start with like, hi, Madeleine. Don't we just. I love how we've been talking nonstop for like an hour and 15 and then you press record. It's like nothing.
Madeleine Cleary:And this is how we shall start our episode. We're hello everybody. We've literally got nothing to say because we've just been chatting, which we should have probably hit record an hour and 15 ago, but. Yeah. Oh, we're so professional. Hi
Tina Strachan:Madeleine. How are you going?
Madeleine Cleary:Oh, you know, you, you know what it's like, just the last month's been crazy. Mm-hmm. I think both of us. Mm-hmm. We've both had a very interesting month and I, we are gonna do our little updates for the month, but, um, and I was just looking back at my calendar to say, what, what have I done? Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot. Same with you. Okay. I wanna hear all about, I mean, the last time we caught up, you were in the throes of, um, having your book out. I think you were like a few weeks out. Mm-hmm. Um, how's the last month been? Yeah.
Tina Strachan:Uh, really busy, but super fun. Uh, so yeah, I'm still in that, you know, the, the very important two, like eight, six to eight weeks, they say, don't they of like really just. Of, um, yeah. Pushing the new release kind of thing.
Madeleine Cleary:That's what Amie Kaufman actually said to us. Um, which it was something you organized for our debut crew. We got to have a chat with her in the last month, which was fantastic. Yes. She said, go, go, go in your first six to eight weeks, because that's when you got all the stock in the book shops before they go and return it all. Hopefully not. Mm-hmm. Or it's sold.
Tina Strachan:Yes, that's right. Yes. It's um, and I have to say, you do get really sick of seeing yourself and talking about yourself. Uh, I mean, some people probably don't, but I do. And a bit sick of looking at my phone, I have to say. Um, but. Yeah. My advice now that I'm almost eight weeks into it is, yes, you will go through that, but um, just keep doing it. Mm-hmm. Like, you're really only gonna get this chance and it's really important. So just to, yeah. Just to do as much as you can. And, um, and when I say that, I, I guess I'm talking, there's a little bit of socials plays a part of it, but then there's so many other things, you know? Um, I've been doing some podcasts, not just this one, other people's podcasts. Do you wanna name a
Madeleine Cleary:few so the listeners can go and find them?
Tina Strachan:Yes. So Words and Nerds. Mm-hmm. I did the, um, really fun words and nerds with Dani Vee and, um, the Australian Book Lovers podcast as well, which was really fun. Yes. That's with, um, one of the hosts, her name is Veronica Straton. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like spelt the same as my last name. No, but she says Stretchin. Yeah, I know. It's so weird. I'm constantly correcting people because they say stretch, and I'm like, no, it's Strachan. And she, she actually pronounces it that way. Did you talk about that on the podcast? Yeah, we did because we, we got no relation. No relation, which is really funny. Um, yeah, so, so lots of podcasts, lots of, um, you know, bookshop visits. Oh, wine. I saw you did a wine event. Okay. Yes. Tell me about that. Read between the wines. Love it. Yeah, sorry. Hang on. Read. Yeah, read between the wine. That's right. God, I thought I got it. Minute. And that was at, um, the beautiful quick brown fox bookstore up in Brisbane, and it's a teacher librarian event. So it's, um, I'd always heard about Read Between the Wines and I thought that sounds amazing, but I do kidlets, so maybe I'll just never get to do one of them. But, um, no, it was, uh, three kid lit authors, uh, Kate Foster and Kirsten Ealand as well. And we just got to meet some beautiful teacher librarians. Um, you know, have a little, have a, have a little beverage mm-hmm. And some cheese and, and crackers and chat about our books, which was. Yeah. Super amazing. It was a really, yeah, it was really nice. Um, and then last week I did Romancing the Stars, which is, um, a book, links Brisbane, um, event. Mm-hmm. Which is, they have maybe it was 14, uh, stars, which are the authors or the illustrators. And then people can book in and it's kinda like speed dating and you go around to. Each, so there's like groups of people, and as the star, so the author or the illustrator, you, you've got three minutes to sort of talk about your book and then people can ask you after that, people can ask questions, and then you, I think you've got another three minutes for questions. And then you, they ring a bell and the author and the illustrator move to the next group. Oh. And so I have to like, it's kind of by the end of it, I actually, because I had to say it like nine different times. Pretty much the same thing. Couldn't remember what I had said or hadn't said anymore, but, oh, hopefully it was okay. But that was super fun. Just filled with amazing. Wonderful. So wait, who
Madeleine Cleary:were you pitching to
Tina Strachan:though? Um, so they, there's a lot of teachers there. A lot of teacher librarians there as well. And, uh, lots of. Aspiring authors and illustrators and lots of published author, authors and illustrators too, coming along and, and checking it all out. So, uh, yeah, that was super fun just to catch up with lots of amazing crew.
Madeleine Cleary:Did your pitch change? No. The nine times you did it.
Tina Strachan:Um, not, actually, not really. Not really good. It must have been really good from the start then. I don't dunno. Um,'cause I think'cause you've only got three minutes, you're trying to pack everything in and then sometimes I rambled for too long and I think it got a bit shorter actually. Mm-hmm. Because I was cutting stuff out to fit in and not rush. But, but that was a really exciting event, um, and really fun and. Yeah, so there was some cool other events and other ways of promoting the book, I guess. Mm-hmm. Um, doing it that way. Um, my mom's been doing a hard job of going around to the bookshops. She's been going hard as my street team. Um, and she keeps like messaging me, like, oh, this bookstore, um, they, they've got. You know, five books. Um, there was six there yesterday. Now there's only five. Uh, but they would like you to go in and sign them. So I get like the, you know, the proper sales stats every time she be working
Madeleine Cleary:for Harper Collins. She's got the local insight she can Intel.
Tina Strachan:It's been really cute. Um, yeah, so that's been, so it's been really busy. I think we were just saying before, this is the first week. I don't have an event for a while. I'll have to rustle something.
Madeleine Cleary:And in the midst as well, you also messaged me and said, you've finished the draft of your latest of your new book as well. Is that right? New writing? Yes. Yes. You've somehow fit this in the cracks. I don't know how you've done that. Yes, I wrote, I typed
Tina Strachan:the end.
Madeleine Cleary:Yes. And you sent me a, the
Tina Strachan:um, video of that, which is so exciting. I know. It was really amazing. I think,'cause I had some time off with the release of. Nika and the missing key. It, I think I've just, apart from all the publicity and everything, I, I found it was really important actually to keep on writing, um, on something new when I could. Uh, I think that was just, I. Uh, just kind of keeps you connected still and a little bit grounded and you know, as I keep saying, I am everyday writer, so I think I just have to, I think it just happens, but that was really good to keep some routine.
Mm-hmm.
Tina Strachan:Um, and I could just get so much done if like, I have the time it turns out. So yeah, that was super exciting to just write the end and now I've got like lots of edits and things to do on it, but you know, it's such a big milestone isn't it, to huge. Get just the idea out, which is great.
Madeleine Cleary:Um, and you've also been doing Nika book two edits. As well. I did the type set
Tina Strachan:for that. Um, and so that'll probably be back again soon. So looking forward to doing that. It's been really fun getting back into it actually. And. Because it's been a big chunk of time. Um, so that was really fun too. And pre-orders, are they open now for Nika book too? Oh yeah, they would be, actually, I'll have to double check. It's called Nika in the Storm. So that's a little bit of a giveaway of what happens, um, in that book, which is really exciting. So, and ing.
Madeleine Cleary:Yes,
Tina Strachan:you've just gone
Madeleine Cleary:through the
Tina Strachan:cyclone.'cause we just had a cyclone, like a proper cyclone like it was, and I live on the coast and that thing came from the, from the ocean. And there was no buffering for us. It was full on really, really crazy.
Madeleine Cleary:Are you okay? Was it all, everything okay in terms of where you were
Tina Strachan:living? Yeah, like we were, we were, um. Like we had, our house wasn't damaged or anything like that, but the street was damaged just like trees just pushed over everywhere. Like even just small street trees. It just was outta control. And um, yeah, the beach was wrecked. Um, but, you know, I'm just grateful that we, I. Weren't damaged in our hou and no one was hurt because a lot of people did suffer a lot of damage. And I think they could even be, you know, I think most people have their power back on now, but that's, it was a long time. Mm-hmm. Some people like 10 days with no power. Some people without water. I had friends coming over and showering and doing their washing at my place. Oh my gosh. And stuff.'cause it had just been so long. So yeah, it was really, it was really full on. So yes, I was editing, uh, about Nico's Cyclone, uh, sorry about Nico's Storm during our cyclone, which was.
Madeleine Cleary:Very atmospheric
Tina Strachan:for
Madeleine Cleary:you. Probably not what you want, but you know. No. Oh goodness. I'm glad that everything is okay. Yeah. Oh, thank you. We're very worried about you, Tina.
Tina Strachan:Mm. Yeah. It was very strange experience, but, um, yes, we're all recovered now, which is great. Mm. So, but yeah, so a really busy month, but, you know,
Madeleine Cleary:uh, things have been ramping up for you too. They have been. And actually, before I talk about that, I do wanna talk about something that's been going around on social media, speaking of socials and, um, and oh, also I have an app now on my phone that restricts my social media content. Mm-hmm. I'm only now viewing it. I, I can access it on a two hour period. During the day, which has been amazing. Very, very good for my focus. Do you wanna tell everyone what that app is? It's called Freedom and Amie Kaufman again recommended this and it's for people who have zero willpower like me. Yeah. I highly recommend it. You know,
Tina Strachan:it's not just willpower. And that was another thing that Amie said, which I've even, I. You know, I've been spruiking that advice and it's for the kids, for my kids as well. Like she was saying, who am I to stand up against the billions of dollars that these tech people have put in? Yes. To making sure these apps are the most addictive thing. Yes. That exists so that you are actually powerless to stop it. That's right. And she's like, I just can't, I'm one person and. Of course they're hooking me.'cause that's a hundred percent what they're designed to do when they have psychologists and like tech or the biggest tech experts there are to make sure that you can't say no to it and you can't look away from it. And so she's like, so I just take that like. Decision away from me and the fight away from me by getting, by using one of these apps that just blocks it off for a couple hours a day. And, you know, we think about our kids with even less self-control, and it's not their fault. These, these things were designed to suck them in to target
Madeleine Cleary:you and to, so you, you are consuming their content over and over and over. You're powerless. All of us feed that as well. And, and this is what something I wanted to talk about.'cause, you know, yesterday, um, and I didn't prep you on this, Tina, but it's something that I think it's important to talk about yesterday. So yesterday I think the Atlantic released, um, a searchable function. Yeah. Um, based off the library genesis platform, which Pirates creators content, um, and has been used by meta speaking of meta, um, to train their ai. And this is. Caused a huge discussion, I think in across the world, but in Australia as well, that you know, Australian creators, so that's writers, musicians, poets, everybody who is creating, um, is having their, their pirated work used to train AI with no compensation. Yeah. Um, the shocking thing for us, and was part of a discussion in our, in our day brew crew for this year, is that even our. Debut writers who've been just published in the last few months are featuring on that database, so their work has already been pirated. Their books have only been out for a month or two and have been already stolen and used to train ai, which. It has to be something that we're talking about more. There has to be better regulation of this and competent, fairer compensation. Compensation for creators. What, what do you think, Tina? Yeah. It's sad, isn't it? Mm. Have you looked your book up? I mean, I know it's not out yet, but mine is not because I don't think it's been published, but I expect that given many of our day crew already up there,
Tina Strachan:mm.
Madeleine Cleary:That it will be. What about you, Tina? Have you checked yours?
Tina Strachan:I, I had this really, I was like. So you, it's a search. You can actually go and follow the link and it's a search searchable database. And, but a part of me was like, I actually didn't even want to, for some reason write the title in because I was thinking, am I just gonna alert it to the fact that.
My
Tina Strachan:book exists, and then they're gonna, they'll be like, actually no, we don't have that one, but now we do. Um, so I looked up my name and there is a Teatro that is a geneticist somewhere, and a lot of his medical papers have been used, but I couldn't see, I couldn't see mine. Um, but I didn't search for long. I honestly, I just wanted to get away from as far away from it as possible. But yeah. It's pretty horrifying and it's uncomfortable. That's
Madeleine Cleary:probably,
Tina Strachan:that's the thing. It's really, really unsettling, isn't it? Because we just Yeah. We who, like I said, who are we to fight these tech giants and they, um, I mean yeah, but it's gonna come down to us, right? Absolutely. It's gonna come down to enough people.
Madeleine Cleary:Not just creators with the only ones that can push
Tina Strachan:back,
Madeleine Cleary:but all the people that are, you know, um, consuming content and, and using AI and, and, you know, AI is becoming so important in our society as well. So having regulation around it is really important. So it's not just up to creators to defend our own work. It has to be people who wanna pay. They're a compensation to creators for, for that licensing. Um, you think about how many thousands of hours have we put into our work, Tina?
Tina Strachan:Mm-hmm. Yeah. For it to just to be stolen straight away and used for whatever,
Madeleine Cleary:thousands and thousands and thousands upon hours of our time in this and to be, for it to be pirated is just devastating. I have another
Tina Strachan:Amie Health Kaufman, um, reference. Um. At another event that I saw her speak at, she started talking about it and, you know, and, and how, you know, upset she is with the whole situation. This was before, this was like probably six months ago. And yeah.'cause she was saying how you can, you know, type into these AI generators, you know, write me 50,000 word book, um, in the style of Amie Kaufman and, and, um, I don't know, all of the gods. You know, for instance, which is one of her books, and you can do that and it will come out and a hundred percent her very, very close to her writing style and, you know, all the characters, all that sort of thing. And it's just because it's just taken all like all of her, you know, back catalog and, and used it. So like
Madeleine Cleary:that's. Disgusting. It's disgusting. And she hasn't been compensated for that. No, for that. The training that's gone into that machine. So things have to change and I think it's really relevant. I I wanted to raise it'cause one of the things that we wanted to talk about on this episode is, is actually about how authors make money. Licensing our work mm-hmm. For AI is not one of them currently.
No. No.
Madeleine Cleary:And I, I think I, I wanted to talk about it because a lot of people, um, as the, um, my book will be sort of moving closer to publications, so it'll be, you know, just under six weeks now, a lot of my friends and family, so people who are outside the industry are asking me, so how do you make money? Are you going to be able to take more time off? What, are you gonna quit? Yeah. Are you gonna quit? You've gotta book out. Are you gonna go down to part-time? How, how do you make money? Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Tina Strachan:How do you answer that, Tina? Yes. How do you make money? Um, having your books pirated is certainly not helpful. Um, yeah. So I guess, and one thing I've heard, um, and maybe this is a myth that we need a bust on our upcoming episode. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um. Is that, but I don't think it is. I think there's actually a lot of truth to it, uh, depending on who you are. But the majority of your, I guess, money that you make by publishing a book mm-hmm. Is often on everything else that you do around it and not just books out.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Tina Strachan:So, um, obviously if you have a cracker and, you know, sell a lot of books you like become, you know, like a bestseller or something like that, maybe you could. That's where you'll make most of your money. But, um, a lot of other writers and, you know, especially in the Kid Lit community, um, doing events, um, especially speaking at schools is a really big one. Mm
mm. Um,
Tina Strachan:kids, uh, children's, um, book week CBCA book week as well, which is. Actually about a month
Madeleine Cleary:long now. Um, so I heard a myth actually that, um, kid lit authors make a majority of their income in book week or book month now. Mm. Is that true? Is that, do
Tina Strachan:you wanna bust that myth? Well, I guess I think it's, and I don't know'cause I haven't worked in a, in a book week yet, but it can be, you know, and I guess, we'll we can talk a bit more about this, but obviously you. There are fees that you can charge for speaking and mm-hmm. Um, the a SA, uh, lists that mm-hmm. And that's definitely something that people, Australian Society of Authors. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Yes. They definitely have guidelines for, not just for schools. Yeah. Rates of pay for everything speaking everywhere and for how long. Um, and, you know, everyone definitely should use that when, mm-hmm. When they're charging. Um, because it isn't just the. Uh, a couple of hours or hour that you're speaking at the school for, or the library for, or, you know, some other festival for you are prepping for that beforehand. You're driving. There you are, you know, it is your time. Um, and you know, so you have to make sure that you're compensated for that. Um, yeah. So you can, because lots of schools are trying to book out authors. Mm-hmm. In that book week, it's probably the busiest. And for some schools, it's the only time they can get authors in. Um, yeah, that's, it can be. That's probably when you can make a lot of bookings. Mm-hmm. Make, you know, maybe the most of your money for that. Just go hard Absolutely. In that sort of week and, um, yeah, and, and book it out. Book it out and book it out. Yeah.
James Hinchon:Hi, my name is James Hinchon and I'm the author of Llamas in the Library, which is my debut picture book. Llamas in the Library is out now in stores around Australia and is published by Five Mile. Ian Waral. Dutton is the incredible illustrator of the pitch book and there's been such a joy to work with him and Five Mile in this process. My wife and I work in an educational setting, and our family is heavily involved in the agriculture program, caring for sheep, alpacas, and chickens. This naturally led me to write this story. Llamas in the library is aimed at young readers, uh, four to about nine and is a cheeky rhyming story about 13 llamas that wreak havoc throughout a school. Students stumble upon this outrageous situation and must work together to corral the alamas back outside to their paddock in the school Ag plot. Throughout the journey, teachers can be heard shouting. There's llamas in the library and we need to get them out, which is essentially the hook that the story is built around. It's a lot of fun and I really hope it connects with young and older alike, particularly those interested in these fun loving goofball animals. Thank you for your support and for the Book Deal Podcast for the opportunity to share with you all today. Bye for now.
Madeleine Cleary:Okay, so let's talk about, so let's go to the start. So, um. So if you are, if you are an emerging writer, I think this will be really interesting because this is how from when you sign the book deal until when you get to the point where you are booking, making mm-hmm. Sort of kids bookings. Mm-hmm. Um, you earn money along the spectrum. And I found this quite interesting. Before I signed my deal to understand how it is that will, and that people throw around all these words as well. So we can try our best to explain it. Um, and if we are wrong, people can tell us and correct our knowledge
Tina Strachan:please. Or send us some additional questions as well if we don't cover off on them. Yes. Because we were thinking of doing, you know, maybe another episode where we delve into it with. Someone who knows more. Perhaps someone who's the pro. Yeah, we can either talk, I guess, from our experience and in saying that, I think Madeleine, you, you know a lot, so please tell, tell me. I try, I'll try my best. You correct me on what I, what my thoughts are. Okay. So
Madeleine Cleary:when you sign your contract, you may or may not be given an advance. Mm-hmm. Correct? Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. What is an advance,
Tina Strachan:Tina? So an advance is money that your publisher will pay you. As a, an advance of your sales, basically. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, so if you get a thousand dollars advance, then you have to sell enough copies for you to make a thousand dollars back in your royalties and not a thousand dollars worth of. Actual book, but as many books as it takes for you to make a thousand dollars in royalties before you then see additional money after that in royalties.
Madeleine Cleary:That's right. So it advance is an advance against future earnings. Mm-hmm. So you are, so the publishers basically saying, we're gonna give you this amount of money. Because in future, when you start earning money against your book, we want to, you sort of, you know, give you this in advance. Mm-hmm. Um, and then as soon as you are earning, you are selling books. You earn out, um, once you have earned up to that account, so you will receive in advance and then you will only start earning money on your book sales. Once you've earned out that advance. Mm-hmm. And some people don't ever earn out. No.
Tina Strachan:I
Madeleine Cleary:have some stats
Tina Strachan:actually. Okay. I was just gonna mention that some people don't get any advances Correct. For various reasons. Um, and off, you know, maybe smaller publishers. Can't do that, but there's an upside to that. Mm-hmm. In that as soon as you sell one book, you start getting royalties. Exactly. Exactly. And then, you know, it may sound amazing to get, you know, a seven figure advance on your book. Yes. But also you may also never sell, you know, um, out the dollar and then that's it. And that's, you know, so and so you'll never get royalties. So there's a flip side to everything.
Madeleine Cleary:And it's interesting because, um, I, I've been seeing a few, um, things circulating on social media about this. Um, they like to say, oh, that they signed a six figure book deal, which I. Sounds like a lot of money. Uh, a six figure book deal. Um, but when you break it down an advance is also paid in installments. So it might be you don't get the full mon amount of their money generally straight away. You get, I. A portion upon signing your contract, you get a portion upon delivering your first edit. Yes. And then you get a portion when it's released. So if you break all that down, and that might all happen over a course of couple of years. Mm-hmm. Um, you're then also paying taxes on, on that advance as well. Mm-hmm. So, um. Six figure book deal is amazing in Australia, and I'd say most authors do not receive that much in in advance. But even having a six figure figure book deal doesn't guarantee you being able to leave your day job. But you have some stats, don't you? I do. So did you know Tina?
Mm-hmm.
Madeleine Cleary:This is based on the Australian Society of Authors 2023 survey. So it's the latest stats I could find.
Mm-hmm.
Madeleine Cleary:31. So close to 32% of authors in this member survey received no advance. And these are traditionally published, traditionally published, that's correct. Mm-hmm. So 70% of authors received an advance of less than 5,000. Of those who earned in advance. So of, so you've got about 32% of that have no advance. But of those who did, um, earn in advance, only about 60% earned out. So about 40% never saw another cent after their book was released in the world.
Tina Strachan:And I guess I was gonna say, can you hear that? I think it's the sound of every single one of our aspiring author listeners just switching off and like going, that's it. Putting their pants down. They're like, I'm not, I am not writing anymore.
Madeleine Cleary:I was just gonna say, this is sounding very doom and gloom. But we don't do it for the money, that's the thing. Right? No, no, but but having said that, there are, so this is, this is just talking about advances and royalties. Yeah. So there are other ways to earn money as an author, um, to support yourself that are. Beyond this and, and you know, we're talking about things like book week, um, speaking events, festivals, um, but also side, side things as well. So things like starting podcasts and, and newsletters and, um, you know, so you've, you've got other, other things that are in the, the pipeline as well. Um, royalties. Can you explain what royalties then are,
Tina Strachan:uh, probably not as good as you, but so royalties is the percentage that you get paid for each one of your books mm-hmm. That we sell. Which can, which, yeah. There's, there's a lot of, I guess, different royalties and they're made up of different things. Mm-hmm. Um, if you so say, I think there's a. 10% is like a pretty standard mm-hmm. You know, amount that you get of Rods print of the, of the recommended retail price. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Tina Strachan:Um, so 10%, if you have, if you're doing an illustrated book, your illustrator will get a percentage as well.
Mm-hmm.
Tina Strachan:Um, and then there's a, a whole world of other. Things that can go into that. And like you said, so that was, that's for print, say as an example. Mm-hmm. And then if you have an audio book, there'll be, you know, a different percentage perhaps. I think it's about 25% different size.
Madeleine Cleary:It's generally about 25% for audio and, um. 25% for eBooks as well. Mm-hmm. So I guess we should also say that, um, you know, your ebook advance is also gonna be separate from your print advance? Um, well, it depends actually. Depends. It depends. Yeah. Yeah. So, so, you know, you might be with a publisher that will license those ebook, uh, audiobook writes to another party, and then they will pay in advance. On top of that as well. So there's lots of different things. If you sell your right to overseas, you will get an advance from international publishers for each one of those sales overseas as well. So that all starts, you know, um, adding up. Um, if you get optioned, um, for a movie or a TV series, you will get an amount of money for that time as well. And that's a whole other sort of kettle of things. So there's lots of different avenues, I suppose, um mm-hmm. As an author. Yeah. Yes. So the royalty is that percentage that you receive every time there's a book sale. Mm-hmm. So, for example, the butterfly women will be. 34.99 RRP recommended retail price. Mm-hmm. And so 10%,$3 50 per book, minus GST, of course, but it's about$3 50 per book. So when people ask me, how much money will you be getting when you, when we, when we buy your book, I say about$3 50. And people are shocked outside the industry actually to hear that. And they go, oh. The publishers must be taking all that money. I'm like, no, no, no. You've got, you've got a factor. And I just
Tina Strachan:think to myself, these books take years to make. Yes. Years to make. And I can't even count how many people have contributed to it. Multiple editors, the type setters, the, there's people behind the scenes that I don't, didn't even know about. You know, like designers. It's not just illustrators, but there's designers and there's cover designers and there's, you know, people that haven't met. Just the printing costs paper. The paper is a huge thing at the moment. People may not realize paper costs has gone up. Drastically, um, you know, the printers. The distributors. Mm-hmm. The packaging, the marketing people, and the, just absolutely everything that goes into it. So when you go, well, a$32 book and you get$3, what about everybody else? That's right. It does, it just, it. Yeah,
Madeleine Cleary:and so obviously the publishers need to make money, so that's Al always going to be a thing, but they're certainly not taking the rest of that 32. For themselves. For themselves, yeah. They are also selling at a discount to booksellers. Booksellers also have their own overheads, particularly the bricks and mortar booksellers. They will get it at a discount. They then sell it, and they must take a cup of that book as well. And we wanna support our. Bricks and mortar booksellers, especially our independence as well, as much as we can. So, you know, um, there's, there's, we're actually having a chat today in our debut crew about the difference between when a book's discounted, do you get the same amount from a, a discounted book as you would selling for the full retail price? There is a difference, but it depends on how much of a discount that retailer got. Um, then you get the net receipts. Um, the net receipt. Uh, so you get the difference between what the publisher is earning, which is the net receipt at 10%. So, um, that would be perhaps about a dollar 50 instead of$3 50 if they're selling it at a higher discount to retailers. And they would do that for, you know, those big, big companies, um, that like Big W who are gonna sell huge volumes of stocks that you have. Yeah, that's, that's good. That's, that's good. It is
Tina Strachan:discounted, but it's, um. The volume's bigger, right? That's right. And it's all
Madeleine Cleary:part of this landscape, this distribution landscape that we are part of. So it sounds low, but there's a whole lot of things that go into that.
Tina Strachan:Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Tina Strachan:Yeah. There's a lot. And it's, it just is differs for, for each person and, um. Yeah. I love how different we are on this, Madeleine, as in you are like, I wanna know my print run. I wanna know exactly how much I get paid for everything. I wanna know how the sales are going. I need to know everything. And I'm just like, I will know when my statement comes in and I don't need to know before that because it is not helpful for me to know that.
Madeleine Cleary:I just, I know it's so funny. Um, be my thing. I think because I've come from a, um, book selling background. Yeah. That I'm. I have this really strong interest in this. Yeah. In, in. And I think the other thing as well is, you know, like it would be nice to be able to dedicate more time and energy to writing. If there is a moment where I have that opportunity in the next few months, um, I'm going to do that and try and step back from work a bit and have that opportunity. So I'm curious to sort of track this and understand, okay, where are we heading? What are we doing? Um. What, what might that look like? And the other interesting thing, I think too, um, we were talking about, um, in the, in our group, ELR and PLR. Yes. Yes. Which is another way that authors earn money, um, through libraries. And this has actually surprised to a lot of people in the outside the industry. Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Madeleine Cleary:Um, and it hasn't always
Tina Strachan:been that way though, has it? It's relatively. Recent and it's, I believe, is it? Or is it the electronic lending rights that was, that's very recent, isn't it, with the audio books?
Madeleine Cleary:It absolutely is. It's not something, it's like only happened in the last 20 years. So essentially the government will compensate writers, um, for the loss of book sales by people lending the book. From the library. Mm-hmm. Um, and we discovered recently that it's based, it's not based on, so I didn't tell you this, but I borrowed your book at our local library and then just immediately returned it.'cause I'd already read it and I was like, yeah, I'm giving Tina some money. I was like, borrowed, borrowed it. But no, that would not have given you any extra money. It's actually based on how many copies are in circulation at a time when they do a survey and then you will. Receive a nice little check in the mail. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Tina Strachan:But you know, it probably, yeah. So that's a bit, uh, I guess that's a bit confusing for some people that didn't, didn't realize that. I didn't realize that. Um, but by getting, borrowing the book though, it does kind of show the demand and so the libraries might get more if they're always out. So true. Thank you, Madeleine. You
Madeleine Cleary:did help with that. Yeah. That's true. That's true. And so the more copies that are in circulation, the more money gets, the more demand, the more that people are checking it out, like the more demand there is. So if you are, if you are a library user and I'm a big library user, you are also contributing to author's salary and income. So absolutely. Continue to use your libraries.
Tina Strachan:I heard a really interesting stat. Okay, myth, I'm writing this down for our Myth Busters episode, so I don't think it's a myth. I, I. Did absolutely hear it. And, um, but just to get some more confirmation around it would be cool. Um, in that there was some stat, and I'm probably gonna get it wrong, but it was around for every one book that's, that's, um, borrowed from the library, it does generate a. Like another 4, 5, 6 sales around. That equates to that. So the importance of having your book in a library as well, although it's like people aren't paying money for it every time, but there's a stat around it because people are still reading it and I guess then there's also, then they're recommending it.
Mm-hmm. You know, and they're
Tina Strachan:talking about it. Um, they could even post about it, so they haven't paid for it, but they've in a roundabout way contributed to more sales.
Madeleine Cleary:Amazing. And, and, um, I was actually talking to, um, a friend's mom who's part of a book club associated with the library they order in, and there's about 20 of them in this book club. The, the, the library's actually order in 20 copies of the book. And then distribute it at once a month, a different book once a month, they choose, the library chooses it. How wonderful to have 20 copies of your book circulating in just a local branch of a library. Yeah. I, that's invaluable. Mm-hmm. I'm finding like most, you know, I. New publish books, you are lucky to get one to two or three copies. Yeah, generally, unless you're like a big, you know, bestseller. So the more copies in circulation. Yeah, like you said, word of mouth is probably what sells books the most, um, which is, you know, really organic and lovely. So, and it's a long
Tina Strachan:game really, isn't it? Like it's, everyone wants to come outta the gates as a bestseller, but really what you want is for people to read the books and love them. Yes. And they have a long, long life on the shelf.
Madeleine Cleary:Exactly. And once you know as de or emerging sort of early career writers. You probably won't be most people according to, you know, the a SA survey results won't be receiving lots and lots and lots of money in their first year or, but I was, um, this is something, you know, talking with other authors about. Sometimes it's their second or third or even fourth book that really propels them and then people will go back to their first or second or third books and read their back list and that's, you know, so it's, it's not to say. Give up. I'm never gonna make any money on this, so why bother? Like, both you and I didn't start writing because we expected to make any money from it. I, I remember the first time I, I think I won a, like a, um, it was a writing prize and I think I won$500. It was for a short story.
Tina Strachan (2):Wow.
Madeleine Cleary:I
Tina Strachan:know it's pretty good.
Madeleine Cleary:I was like, what, what competition was this? It was the, actually, I'm just looking up. I've got the award on my bookshelf, the Em Fletcher Writing Award, and it was in 2022. Um, great competitions, um, based in Canberra, but um, it's for open to all Australian residents. And yeah, I came second, I think in the award and I, I won this$500 and I remember when it hit my bank account, I was like, oh my goodness, I have been paid. For my writing like that. Mm-hmm. This is the most incredible, that's incredible. Amazing thing ever. Mm-hmm. And I'm not to say that we should discount and just accept whatever, and, you know, that writers should be paid little and dah, dah. I'm not saying that at all, but hanging onto the fact that we do this because we love it. We get paid for it. That's amazing as well. Mm-hmm. Um, we both, you and I have been paid for our work, which is so, so, so cool. And it's a privilege that not everybody has had in the past. Yeah. Um. Yes. Not discounting that rider shouldn't be paid more. I think they absolutely should be. But sort of holding onto that, if you're feeling that feeling like, oh, I'm never gonna make any money out of this. Just those little small wins can help too.
Tina Strachan:Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's why it's important to. Um, have a look at the as SA website and that's gonna be my top tip for the episode. I dunno if that was gonna be yours and I've stolen it, but No, that's a one, one tip for the episode is have a look at the as SA website and check out their rates of pay.
Mm-hmm.
Tina Strachan:Um, and it's important to, I guess, use that as your guide as well. And if everybody just is, is aware of what it is that they need to. Expect, I suppose. And, uh, yeah, make sure that you're charging for everything that you,
Madeleine Cleary:that you should be doing. So that's really important as well. Absolutely. And actually that's an interesting one because, um, I've. I'm gonna be doing lots of library, um, visits, um, and, and um, sort of appearances, which is amazing. Um, some of them I'm doing during my publicity period in May, and I've made it quite clear. One, I've been asked, oh, are you going to be donating your time to the library or will you be. You know, charging the As SA standard rate. And I know that it's often common during publicity periods to donate your time, and I'm happy to do that, but I made it very clear because it's in the first few weeks of my publicity campaign that I'm happy to do that because I don't wanna set a standard for other authors to just do these things for free. Because often there is an expectation, oh, well if you're selling your book there, that you will be. Speaking for free. And it's a, it's a, it's a cost. You have to drive there, you have to prepare for the presentation. If you're on a panel, you have to read the other books. Um, you are giving up not just that one hour of your time. So I think there is a fair expectation that, that people get paid for those things. I've got other events that will be not during the publicity period, and in those periods I will be, you know, paid for that, which is, um, amazing. And libraries actually are given funding for author's appearances. So if you are an author out there and you are. Worried about asking to be paid, refer to the a SA. And to be honest, the libraries have been amazing and they've, they've actually referenced the a SA. Standard rates of pay in advance before approaching me. So they've actually in their approach
Tina Strachan:Yeah. Said Yeah. They'd know about it. Yeah. And they know about it because of all the other authors ahead of you that stuck to it and, and quoted it all the time. Yeah. So do stick to it. They do inspect it. Yeah. Um, and you're right, they, it's, they do have a budget for it. Um, yeah, but I, I think I, I guess in those first few weeks of. Um, the promotional period, you are mm-hmm. You are trying to sell your book mm-hmm. And get the word out there. Mm-hmm. So it does make sense that you, you know, you are, you're happy to sort of do whatever you need to do Yes. To sell the book. And then afterwards, it's almost like you are actually drawing people to the library or to the bookshop or something like that. So it's, so initially the benefits for you to get that, that promotion for the book and then. After that, it's the benefit is for you as well, but it's also the library then asking you and it's beneficial for them to have you, you come in. Yeah. So I can see. I agree. And that's But that's when you charge.
Madeleine Cleary:Yeah, no, exactly. Exactly. So, um, I guess then to answer the question when people are asking me, um, you know, are you going to be leaving your day job or, um, the short answer is. No, but that doesn't mean, and I, I had this great chat with Natasha Lester last week, and it'll be coming up in the week after this one. Um, she's like, aim high. If you're an early, if you're an emerging writer, if you are a early career writer, why not have the goal of being one day a New York Times bestseller? Because that's one of her goals for this year is to, to get back on the list. And so I was like, oh, but what about goals for us? Like, that's not gonna be realistic for us. She's like, no. No aim high, you know, just you, you can still, um, aim for these things. There's nothing wrong with that. Um, if you don't hit the mark, that's okay, but, you know, look at so many authors whose third books have been the ones that have been the big superstar hits. So, um, yeah, you've just gotta keep going and going and going. So.
Tina Strachan:Everyone's journey is different and you cannot predict it. So I think you've just gotta do what you can and, you know, and obviously enjoy it at the same time. And I totally agree with, um, you know, aiming high.'cause you have to, right? Like you, you have to, you have to hope. You've gotta
Madeleine Cleary:have the hope.
Tina Strachan:You've gotta have the hope. And, um. It kind of forces you then into doing the, taking the steps and you know, is it a bit of manifesting? Is that what we call it? I don't know. Yes. But it makes you just take those steps that are in the right direction. I think it's very important to be ha be a little bit realistic about it because I. As well. Mm-hmm. Course, I mean, we know, we know that you might make, you know, you might make no money at all. Yeah, yeah. No, you know, I, I, you know, maybe you sell a handful of books, maybe it's a complete flop or, but just being real realistic about the industry and of course, you know, the money and, and side of it as well. Mm-hmm. But, um, but just, yeah, but always looking and always having that, that goal of being successful. Yes.'cause it certainly can't hurt and to channel that energy.
Madeleine Cleary:And why not
Tina Strachan:you?
Madeleine Cleary:Absolutely all the authors have that have become super bestsellers or, you know, they, they are just normal people as well, so, absolutely. So why not you? Um, mm-hmm. So I guess we don't wanna leave this, this episode on a negative tone. We don't wanna put anyone off. But also I think, you know, if you are put off writing. Mate, because you're wanting to earn money from your writing, maybe. Maybe it's not the right. Maybe it's not the right. Right. Because I know like you and I know, even if we didn't get paid a cent for what we do, we would still be writing every day. Yeah, absolutely. Um, it's something that we pour out heart and soul into, and it's something that I'm gonna continue to do even. If I'm just getting that$500 award, which is amazing.
Tina Strachan:Yes, I know. It's just like a little added bonus. Right, exactly. I was writing these books anyway. I was writing anyway, so the fact that they're getting published and um, is just, and I might get paid for it, is great. Exactly what a cherry on
Madeleine Cleary:top. Exactly. So for any people who are listening and wanna help out, writers buy their books. Borrow their books, attend their events, attend the festivals, engage. Um, these are all the things that you can do to help us, um, and call out anytime you can, particularly if we've got some influential people on the call where, you know, you see a need for better regulation, better pay for creators, um, and protection of creators content, um, online. So were they all your top tip for this episode, Madeleine? My top tip Tina is yes, buy and borrow books. That was an excellent top tip.
Tina Strachan:Alright, thanks Madeleine. Good to chat.
Tina Strachan (2):Thank you for listening to the book Deal podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the pod so you can receive updates as soon as our new drop. To keep up to date with what the pod is doing. You can also find us on Instagram.