The Takeover: Zaheda Ghani on writing goals, how to keep momentum and setting intentions for writing practice

In this episode of The Book Deal Podcast, host Natasha Rai interviews Zaheda Ghani, an Afghan refugee and author of 'Pomegranate and Fig'. Zaheda shares her path to publication, starting from her early handwritten novels to her debut book being shortlisted for the Richell Prize and published by Hachette. They discuss the authenticity of her story set in 1970s Afghanistan, the scars of refugee experiences, and Zaheda's meticulous research process. The conversation also covers Zaheda's writing process, balancing advocacy and storytelling, and the emotional journey of getting published. Zaheda provides valuable tips for writers, emphasizing authenticity and the importance of setting intentions.

00:00 Introduction to the Book Deal Podcast
00:34 Meet Zaheda Ghani: From Refugee to Author
02:26 The Journey of 'Pomegranate and Fig'
03:55 Writing with Authenticity and Detail
06:27 Navigating the Role of Advocate and Author
10:02 The Evolution of Zaheda's Writing Process
12:25 From Writing Course to Publication
13:59 The Role of Competitions in Zaheda's Success
16:30 Working with Editors and Refining the Manuscript
20:42 Introducing 'Welcome to Miracle' by Shara Curlett
22:26 Submitting to Hachette and the Waiting Game
23:14 The Waiting Game: Patience in Publishing
24:51 The Joy of Acceptance: Getting Published
25:40 Navigating the Publishing Process
26:51 Managing Expectations and Anxiety
28:42 Establishing a Writing Routine
32:01 The Creative Process: Writing for Yourself
37:52 Final Thoughts and Advice for Writers

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Transcript

Natasha Rai 0:09

This is the Book Deal Podcast, monthly takeover by your host, Natasha Rai. I'll be bringing you even more debut and season authors as they talk about their path to publication.

Madeleine Cleary 0:26

The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.

Natasha Rai 0:34

Zaheda Ghani and her family arrived in Australia from Afghanistan as refugees in the 1980s. At nine years old, Zaheda, also known as Zoe hand wrote her first novel using an HB pencil in a scented diary with a lock and key. The heart of what she wrote back then developed over many years to become Pomegranate and Fig, which was shortlisted for the Richell prize for emerging writers. Zaheda was also a recipient of the Western Sydney Emerging Writers Fellowship. Zaheda served on the board of Australia for U-N-H-C-R, the private sector partner of the UN Refugee Agency from 2017 to 2021. She's now an ambassador for Australia for U-N-H-C-R and has an active interest in UNH C'S humanitarian work. Zaheda lives in Sydney with her husband. Just a note from me about this episode. It took, Zaheda and me a while to get our act together in terms of getting a time to record it, and I'm so glad we did because the episode is jam packed with really, really excellent practical tips for writers either struggling to find time to write or to understand or figure out how to proceed with their work and how to set intention. I think the intention part for me really stood out. While you're listening this episode, make sure you bring your notebook and pen to take on all of Zaheda's fabulous tips. Enjoy. Hi Zaheda Ghani, welcome to the Book Deal podcast.

Zaheda Ghani 2:18

Thank you, Natasha. Thank you for having me.

Natasha Rai 2:20

It's a pleasure and I'm really, really pleased that you, we were able to make this work. Thank you. Um, so you're here today to talk a little bit about your publication journey and your wonderful novel, pomegranate and Fig. So I would like to start by inviting you to give me an elevator pitch.

Zaheda Ghani 2:38

Okay. It's not gonna be very polished, but, um, the novel called Pomegranate and Fig, and I have a copy right here with me. Um, it was published in, um, 2022, so it's been a while. It's actually a story about three people. There's, um, Hannah, um, and her brother, um, Hamid, and basically, uh, and a third person called Rahim, who will later become her husband. And essentially it's based in the 1970s Afghanistan, and it follows their lives and their journey through the Soviet invasion. And then how they flee and what happens. At the part of it, what I was actually interested in was those scars from the refugee experience that are not communicated through the numbers and the statistics and the imagery in the news. It's actually those scars are not visible. They actually change who people are, and so it's really about the identities of these people and how it involves as a result of the experiences that they had.

Natasha Rai 3:38

Thank you. Um, I have read it so I know how beautiful it is, the story, the writing, the themes. Um, and I'm curious about, you take such heavy themes, you take such care with them. How did you approach writing a story like this or stories?'cause it's multiple viewpoints.

Zaheda Ghani 4:02

Sure. Look, at the time I wasn't thinking about. The themes or the heaviness in the way maybe you read, read them. I think for me what was important was, um, I needed it to be as historically valid as possible. So it was really, that was an important thing. Um, and I wanted to portray the elements of the culture as honestly as I could. And now every family has lives within a larger and larger culture, but you also have your own nucleus of culture. I wanted to capture those, the important things in terms of the relationships between men and women, their wedding ceremony, the process of actually getting married, the and, and the bonds between family and what's appropriate and what's not. So they're the things that I was more focused on and, um, consciously so, because I wanted to base it in as much, you know, of I was world building as someone said once to me, like someone does in sci-fi. So I was hoping that the world that I'm building is as honest and authentic as I can make it, um, based on obviously my own perception of what that looks like. And, and for that, um, I watched a lot of, uh, videos on YouTube on from the, the. The periods that I was interested in, obviously read a lot, um, and also, uh, harassed my mom and other family members had been through to try to understand like in a, um, when there is that wedding ceremony, what's appropriate for who to say this is what I wrote. Is that sound right? And I also worked with an amazing editor, Jane, who helped me to then do some. Uh, like refinements on, well, in the seventies, if you had a yearbook made of leather, it would've been too expensive for a school, so therefore this material should change. So she did some of that. So it's not necessarily kind of historical fiction, but it is trying to be on, uh, honor the, the experiences and the cultural components and elements of the time.

Natasha Rai 6:04

Yeah. So by focusing on the details and that accuracy, you get this. As you said, world building, you get this real intricate, very detailed view into these people's lives.

Zaheda Ghani 6:16

Yeah, that was kind of the game plan.

Natasha Rai 6:18

It definitely worked. I mean, as a huge fan of your work and I love, I love your book, so it definitely worked well for me anyway. So part of your work is you are an advocate, um, for refugee peoples or, you know, and I'm wondering,'cause one of the things you and I talked about when your book came out. Was this, um, feeling or danger of becoming a spokesperson as a lot of writers of colors end up being for communities or ways of lives or families? Have you thought about, because you've had a bit of time now, how you've balanced that, where you can kind of talk about it or advocate through your work, but maybe wanting to take a bit of a back step away from that when talking about your fiction?

Zaheda Ghani 7:06

Sure. Yeah, so this was interesting for me because, um, I cannot speak for the peoples that are Afghan who have left through either, either my, my time or or other. Um, and I wanted the book to do kind of, to just stand as a novel and I want it just to be a novelist to begin with. And as a result of sharing my personal experiences and perspectives, if that helped somebody understand the refugee experience better, then that was really kind of like the icing. And I really wanted that to be my smallest small contribution, um, to, to, to the narratives, um, that, that you refer to. So I think, again, I, I feel like going back to just being as authentic as possible about my writing process, but also saying, this is my experience as. Afghan, um, refugee as my parents live, you know, left and how it's different and just being kind of like myself, I guess, in those conversations rather than trying to speak on behalf of is and, and then understanding. And actually, um, someone did say to me, you know, that they felt like it was a window into how families work in that part of the world and how unfamiliar they were. So it's kind of like, well, maybe now when they see on the news that there's a crisis, they will have a connection to the people that are behind the statistics, and maybe that's what will be an outcome. But it definitely wasn't an awareness or a goal for me to set out to do that. I just. Set out to write something because I was interested in that story and again, because it has a personal connection to me and the refugee story is my story. Um, yeah, so the way I kind of tried to navigate that is by just kind of being authentic about where I've come from and then if, if people take something from that, that's awesome.

Natasha Rai 8:59

Yeah, and it's almost a paradox, isn't it? That in writing a story that's familiar to yours. Approaching it with that level of detail that you, you did, you kind of do both, you kind of distance yourself from the actual story'cause it's not your story per se, while also showing a family who is under a lot of stress and going through this quite horrific process ordeal.

Zaheda Ghani 9:26

Absolutely. And you know, we have a shared humanity, right? So, and that's kind of where I'm really interested because the it, regardless of what these. What this family was going through. They're still a family. And every, uh, there's family, like families are a shared humanity. Fear is a shared, shared humanity. Sense of identity is a shared humanity. So that's kind of where I was interested in, in that, just naturally and as you said, because it, it's something that's close to me. It's probably created, you know, that thought maybe in your mind as you read as well, that connection.

Natasha Rai 10:01

Hmm. Did you set out to write this story? Was that kind of your first idea for a novel?

Zaheda Ghani 10:08

Well, I have been writing this story literally since I was a kid because, and it, and it was because I initially started with, um, wanting to write an autobiography. This was in there, seven or six. And, and, um, and even younger. And just because I

Natasha Rai 10:30

what a short autobiography back then,

Zaheda Ghani 10:32

tell me about it. Right. And, and I wrote like, and then I realized that was an interesting, so I wrote it like an iteration of this in, in, in primary school or whatever. And it was just an, an idea. And then I've written a version of it, which felt really cardboard and I hated it. And I thought. This is what happens. You, you just feel that way. Let's just go get self-published, you know, and get it out there and see what people think. And I couldn't even make myself self-publish it. And then I did the year of the, um, novel, the course with Emily Maguire. And through that, um, by that point I had reached a. Space where I said, you know, I'm either going to write this or I'm gonna shut up about it. And through the course I learned what I, what, what I, what was it about the first versions that felt so cardboard. And it was kind of really freeing to understand myself and my writing practice, and then really just write what I really wanted to write, but having better techniques and better feedback. And yeah. And that was kind of the start of the actual. Writing of this version.

Natasha Rai 11:43

Going into that course, what did you have? Like, did you have like an outline, like some scenes, do you remember?

Zaheda Ghani 11:50

I had a whole novel.

Natasha Rai 11:51

You had a whole novel. Oh my God. Okay. Yeah. But it felt like cardboard, like you said.

Zaheda Ghani 11:55

I hated it. Yeah. And I was like, this does not feel right. I, it's, I haven't found, and I think now I, I feel that it was because the voice wasn't there. It was just something wasn't sitting about it. And, um, the characters, there were too many and I was just needing to work through and get closer to who I was really interested in, in the characters themselves. And then once I got that and the voice and then the scenes, I started to rewrite everything, um, through that process.

Natasha Rai 12:24

Yeah. And I wanna come back to, uh, you mentioned earlier about a writing process, and I do wanna ask you about that. But as we've started talking about your kind of bringing together what you learned through that course and starting to figure out what you needed to do to help your novel come to life. Tell me a bit about your publication journey after that. So you,'cause I know that you, you are still in a writing group.

Zaheda Ghani 12:51

Yes. So, uh, going in I was very lonely, right. And I, I had not engaged with writers at all, and I had no idea what the publishing journey would be like. And what I wanted was, I wanted to just be a student. In this process that I've obsessed about all my life and just go and learn and hopefully understand if I could have some people that would be in the writing group with me so that I could keep going and learning with them. And so, yes, out of that course I did, you know, create, uh, uh, become part of a writing group that we still together today, but also within that course. Um, Emily was amazing in that she helped me get to know myself as a writer and kind of dispelled the myth that. You have to have these criteria to even call yourself a writer, which was really shy about even admitting to anyone. So, so that confidence and the coaching really helped me. And then she kind of suggested to the class, you know, um, you all should start to get your work out there and there are some ideas, and start going into some competitions and all of that. And I really took that to heart. So put myself out there and a few competitions. Publishing journey began with a competition because I entered the Richell Richell Prize. I think I pronounced it, been a lot times since I said that word. Um, and um, and through that prize, uh, I was a shortlist. And as part of the shortlist, you know Hachette will read your work and they will decide.

Natasha Rai 14:18

That's right. Amazing. Yeah.

Zaheda Ghani 14:20

And that is, that is how I ended up with Hachette publishing the novel and through that experience of competitions, um, it's really amazing. I have to tell you, I used to enter competitions when I was a kid and. Get like little, um, acknowledgements of my work and it used to feel, and I felt like that period again.'cause I,

Natasha Rai 14:43

For sure

Zaheda Ghani 14:44

As many things as I can. Mm. And I didn't win everything, obviously, but I got into a scholarship with, um, Westwords. They read my work and they, and this was definitely part of the publishing path because it kind of happened at the time before I had submitted my work to Hachette where they teamed me up with an editor. Alison Fraser and all of that.

Natasha Rai 15:06

Yes. So can I just slow you down a little bit because um,

Zaheda Ghani 15:09

Please, yeah.

Natasha Rai 15:10

People get very interested in how competitions work. So you enter the Richell prize and you were shortlisted.

Zaheda Ghani 15:17

Yes.

Natasha Rai 15:18

And then Hachette said what? Like you had some time to submit the whole thing.'cause I know you don't submit the whole manuscript to the Richell prize.

Zaheda Ghani 15:25

That's right.

Natasha Rai 15:26

Three chapters and a breakdown. Right.

Zaheda Ghani 15:29

You got it. Um, I cannot remember exactly what the milestone was in terms of what I had to submit, whether it was the whole thing or how long it took, but mm-hmm. There was kind of within that, um, you know, contract in, I think there's a clause or Oh no, it's in the, when you enter the competition, you know, the terms and conditions and all of that.

Natasha Rai 15:49

Yeah. Yeah.

Zaheda Ghani 15:49

Which would stick to my ears. Uh, and someone's gonna read my work. Wow. Yeah. So then I submitted there, um, and then they had a read and obviously had various meetings and things and then they called and said that they would accept it.

Natasha Rai 16:04

So after you was shortlisted, did you then, win the Westwords editorial, um, feedback after that, do you remember?

Zaheda Ghani 16:13

Um, I know that it happened before I submitted the full manuscript.

Natasha Rai 16:18

Okay.

Zaheda Ghani 16:18

But not remember how the sequence worked.'cause basically I did go a bit nuts. Different, different places.

Natasha Rai 16:26

Yeah. Yeah.

Zaheda Ghani 16:27

I can't remember what the sequence was. Yeah.

Natasha Rai 16:30

Yes. But I do know that you met up with, or you were paired with Alison Fraser because she helped me with my novel and she's an absolute gem.

Zaheda Ghani 16:39

Absolutely. And that was yeah, a, a process that, um, she brought kind of the structural editing to it. Mm-hmm. And me, uh, understand and improve the structure. And, um, I wasn't thinking as technically as she does. Obviously that's, she's such a, yeah. That, so that really helped.

Natasha Rai 16:57

Do you remember what your manuscript or where it was at before she worked on it with you and what? I could, I don't mean the actual details, but what fundamentally changed for you after working with her?

Zaheda Ghani 17:10

Oh, sure. So, um, I think that there was, one of the things was, uh, I wasn't, I had a lot of char, I had more than three characters and those minor characters, I thought they had to be chapters or voices. The characters stayed, but they didn't have to become a voice on the, on their own. They became a voice part of the background.

Natasha Rai 17:36

Mm-hmm.

Zaheda Ghani 17:36

So for example, there's a scene where they come for the, um, there to ask for Hannah's hand. That didn't have to be a point of view by a whole character.

Natasha Rai 17:45

I see. Yes.

Zaheda Ghani 17:46

Yeah. Yeah. The other thing I got out of, um, working with her, I got many things, but the other major thing was, um. She printed out the whole thing and we sat around the table and structured in three different ways, timeline everything in by one cha, like there's three characters. A timeline is consistent. Yeah. It was like what every, everybody told the full story like this. And so I experimented quite a lot with that structure of what would work with her as well.

Natasha Rai 18:15

That, uh, must have been quite a long process. Does, do you remember if. Sometimes I know, I, I know how I felt when I get feedback from an editor and initially I feel a bit lost or I feel a bit panicked, like, I think I can't do this. Did you remember feeling like that or were you feeling really motivated and inspired by how she was helping you structure that?

Zaheda Ghani 18:36

Okay. I, this is actually, I still remember wondering if. I'm skilled enough to do all these things. Yes. As described, there's that process of like the fear and the other part of it is do I, I don't know immediately if I agree or not.

Natasha Rai 18:56

Ah, yes,

Zaheda Ghani 18:58

yes. I will go back into my like click like writing notes. Yeah. And go, okay, you are safe. Let's try this, and then I'll try it out, and then I will live with it for a week. And see how I feel, because I don't know it straight away what I think about it. So I would apply it, play around with it, and then through that playing around, I would think, oh, oh, I can do this. And that is when I would start to feel really motivated and confident.

Natasha Rai 19:27

Mm-hmm.

Zaheda Ghani 19:27

Um, but it's not, not when it's like the initial big list of all the things when, when you first see all the scribbling work, you're like, I'm never gonna get this done. How am I gonna get? So it's like, okay, just chunk it down. Chapter at the time page at the time.

Natasha Rai 19:45

Yeah.

Zaheda Ghani 19:46

Play around with it, see how I go. And then starting to feel, I think that the thing that is consistent was that if someone took the time to read it, I, the motivation doesn't wane, if that makes sense.'cause I'm like this. Very hungry and finished person and it's like someone reading it is such an honor. So the motivation doesn't win. It's the confidence that was different based on

Natasha Rai 20:11

Yeah.

Zaheda Ghani 20:12

Editing. Okay.

Natasha Rai 20:13

Yeah. That's such an important distinction because it's true. It's the confidence, isn't it?

Zaheda Ghani 20:18

Yeah.

Natasha Rai 20:18

And when you start getting in the flow, your confidence builds'cause you think I can do this.

Zaheda Ghani 20:22

You got it. Yeah.'Cause you, you tinker and you're like, oh, I could, I was able to tinker in the direction of what I sensed. She was asking for, or what would make sense now, and you'd be like, oh, that made it better. Or, oh God, that feels cardboard. That's not gonna work. So, yeah.

Natasha Rai 20:37

Mm-hmm.

Shara Curlett 20:42

Hi, I'm Shara Curlett member of the 2025 debut crew, an author of Welcome to Miracle, a middle grade fantasy novel released by Scholastic Australia on the 1st of April, 2025. The idea for Welcome to Miracle came to me when I asked myself a simple question. What if Charlie and the chocolate factory was set on a magical island? What would've happened? What could have happened? And with that one simple spark of an idea, Miracle was born. Welcome to Miracle is about an 11-year-old girl named Juniper Mayfair, who was cursed by chaos. Also, she has been told, and it is well known, that children with chaos may never visit Miracle. The private island that gifts its visitors magic for 24 hours. What others don't realize, however, is that Juniper's chaos comes in the form of a pesky ghost who claims he is not a ghost named Finnegan Frost. So when Juniper receives an elusive ticket to Miracle, she believes all her wishes have come true. After all, that's what the island promises on the island, though she discovers that nothing is, as it seems, Miracle is not bringing wishes to life, but nightmares. Juniper and her new friends must uncover the secrets of Miracle to rid the world of chaos for good, but first, they must survive the island. This fast-paced magical adventure will keep you guessing to the very end, and I really hope that your children and you love reading it. I'd like to say thank you to Madeleine, Tina, and Natasha for giving me the opportunity to share my debut novel with you. Welcome to Miracle is available from all good bookstores and also through the Scholastic Book Club and Scholastic book fairs.

Natasha Rai 22:26

So after that process with Alison, you submitted that version to Hachette?

Zaheda Ghani 22:32

Yes.

Natasha Rai 22:32

And I remember'cause uh, we had, were talking around that time, it felt like it took a long time after that submission.

Zaheda Ghani 22:40

Yes. So, um, there are a lot of processes that I did not appreciate in Hachette that I, in publishing, actually not in, within publishing they have, um, uh, these processes where they're, I guess, discussing the work, understanding what it means for them, how does it fit in their catalog, and they're the things that they were doing internally, which I was waiting for. But because in, you know, and you are like, been in my shoes, you are kind of really excited. But nervous, I was just pretty much holding my writing breath. Yes. So, yeah. Um, it will be, that's a hard part to wait.

Natasha Rai 23:19

It is a very hard part. And I remember at the time as well that you wanted to wait and see and you didn't want to, um, submit to any other publisher.

Zaheda Ghani 23:28

Yes.

Natasha Rai 23:29

Yeah. Yes. Uh, I mean, I don't really wanna ask about whether, obviously it's, it was the right decision, but how did you. Hold on to the patience, because I know that with the competitions, you were like, yes, I'm gonna enter as many as possible.

Zaheda Ghani 23:45

Yeah.

Natasha Rai 23:45

What helped you kind of hold steady with wh while you were waiting for Hachette?

Zaheda Ghani 23:50

Um, I think there's a, I can't remember now, but I think even with entering competitions, there's a time, there's a timing. Thing where some competitions you can't enter if you already submitted somewhere else.

Natasha Rai 24:01

That's, that's true. That's true. Yes. A lot of them have that rule. Yeah.

Zaheda Ghani 24:04

Conscious of timing around that as well. And, um, you know, uh, the, the year of the novel and, and all of the learning we did there, part of that was about like being conscious of those things. So I had to do that. I was conscious, I was, I guess, trained in the patience piece already through learning that even competitions, you can't go a, uh, AWOL and, and do it. So you have to be conscious of those things. I think, um, I felt, felt a bit like, and this is gonna sound cheesy, but it was a bit like if it's meant to happen in this situation, it will.

Natasha Rai 24:38

Mm-hmm.

Zaheda Ghani 24:39

And I had waited like so long, right? Written this thing for so long, it just didn't feel like I needed to go and. Shop it around immediately.

Natasha Rai 24:48

Yeah.

Zaheda Ghani 24:49

If that makes sense.

Natasha Rai 24:49

Yeah, it does. It does. Do you remember the moment or the day when they said, yes?

Zaheda Ghani 24:57

Of course I do. I remember being on the phone in my, um, dining area and jumping up and down going, yes, yes, yes.

Natasha Rai 25:07

It's the best moment, isn't it?

Zaheda Ghani 25:09

Such an amazing moment. I wish it for everyone that wants to write and wants to publish, um, through a publisher. Yeah. It's, it's the best feeling.

Natasha Rai 25:18

Yeah. And from memory, how long did it take between that Yes. To publication date?

Zaheda Ghani 25:24

Oh gosh, I have no idea. I don't remember. I know it was months and months.

Natasha Rai 25:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Zaheda Ghani 25:31

Oh, pause, wait. Covid happened as well. So my, my dates were all impacted by Covid too.

Natasha Rai 25:38

Oh, okay. Yeah. And there was more work that you did, uh, once it was accepted for publication.

Zaheda Ghani 25:45

Yeah. So there was an edit, um, process with the publishing team as well.

Natasha Rai 25:49

Mm. And so the time of release, because I came to your launch and in the Sydney launch, how was all that time? It must have been so heady and so exciting and joyous.

Zaheda Ghani 26:01

It, it was heady. Um, and we were talking earlier about what it feels like to just hold a copy in your hand. Okay. I celebrate every little step, every lunch. It's like the phone call celebration this, well before that submit, celebration, phone call, celebration. And then I have, you know, the book arriving in, you know, it's bid way and then the, the, the, the, the, my copies and then the, yeah, it was just, yeah. I, I, I, in my whole life, I had never worked in, walked into a bookshop, seen a shelf in books, and not felt and dreamt that mine would be on it. And here was this dream happening. And I was, you know, ready to kick the bucket.'cause the bucket was peaceful. You know what I mean?

Natasha Rai 26:49

Yes, I do.

Zaheda Ghani 26:50

Yeah. Um, I have to be honest though, one of the things that I realized when I started to see it around was I did start to feel like wanting to get published was not the same as people actually reading it.

Natasha Rai 27:05

Ah, yes.

Zaheda Ghani 27:07

Oh yeah. Okay. Now that means people will read it. Oh my God. I had not connected that. You know, that bookshelf dream in a bookshop is the same as people actually gonna now read, read this thing.

Natasha Rai 27:19

Yeah. There's a fear associated with that and a worry. Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember what, how you managed that?

Zaheda Ghani 27:28

Um, let's see. I think. The excitement and I'm just like, even now I can feel how excited I was and I still am. I mean, I, I got that hap to hap that happened to me or I made a book. Um, it's still, I think that was probably overshadowing any serious fear of doubt. Just more little anxiety.

Natasha Rai 27:52

And I don't know if this, if you did this at the time, but to anyone else who's in the same boat, all of those competition, long listing, short listing prizes, all of that feedback is something to hold onto as tangible evidence that this is good, this is a high enough standard. Right?

Zaheda Ghani 28:10

Absolutely. And, um, it not only builds that confidence I was talking about earlier, um, I did have other experiences where I just received feedback in the early phases of the old version of the manuscript. And, um, that feedback is a gift and. Uh, and like I said, my approach is not to have an opinion about it straight away, but I know that the things that I took on board, even in the old manuscript, were really helpful to make me better as a writer as well.

Natasha Rai 28:40

Completely. Yeah. And so now if you three years on, what does kind of your writing life look like?

Zaheda Ghani 28:48

Sure. I have been very busy until about, um. I guess a few months ago where I decided, okay, the busyness is a constant, um, and therefore what are you gonna do now? Because novel number two is kind of like, I've got a few thousand words there. I know what I wanna do with it, but I wasn't getting in the chair, so to speak. And so now, uh, I, I've just gone back to restating my instating, my, um, daily writing, um, practice, which is very early in the morning. Um. Even if it's a 15 minute thing, consistently writing.

Natasha Rai 29:29

Mm-hmm.

Zaheda Ghani 29:30

And, uh, um, I recently had a new, uh, practice added to it where I'm actually, I put it in the calendar now, and then it, oh, because I'm driven by the calendars. Anyway, it just, it happened more consistently. So that was one thing. And the other thing was. Started to put in what this week's focus will be because what I was doing was I was doing only one kind of activity and then drowning or losing a lot of hours and feeling really bad about it. So now it'll be this week or this session will be about research and then I don't feel like, I haven't got a, like the full picture of I'm not, this is about writing a net new scene that I do not have. Those ones I will avoid if I let myself go because my favorite is I wrote something and I'm gonna polish the shit out of it.

Natasha Rai 30:25

Ah, yes. Yep. Editing and polishing is my favorite too.

Zaheda Ghani 30:28

Yes. Because they're so fun. Uh, for me at least. So now I'm distributing the days between themes of work and that's gotten me to move forward a lot faster than I was. Yeah.

Natasha Rai 30:41

Oh my God. I actually love that. I hadn't even considered setting an intentional focus. For the day or the week. Oh, I feel like my entire writing practice is gonna change because of that tip. Thank you.

Zaheda Ghani 30:53

It had a massive impact. I cannot take credit.'cause Emily gave that to me.

Natasha Rai 30:57

That's okay. I'm glad. Pass it around.

Zaheda Ghani 31:00

Yes. Uh, so it's, it's her, uh, it's her feedback and it really helped, um, change Yeah. The cadence of my writing.

Natasha Rai 31:06

Yeah. Because for you, especially with time, you also work full time.

Zaheda Ghani 31:10

That's right.

Natasha Rai 31:10

So you have to find your, what works for you in terms of carving out that time.

Zaheda Ghani 31:16

You got it because, um, you know, lunchtimes and after work and evenings, my cognitive load from work is so high, it doesn't really, my brain just doesn't go there. Yeah, yeah. And I get on the laptop again, but in the meetings, because I work up quite early, it's just I've got the meditation, prayer, and all of the reflection time. Then I've got my creative time. And then believe it or not, I'm way more confident and creative in my workday because I've had that. That time to, you know, of solitude and creativity and it just sets me up much better for the rest of the day as well.

Natasha Rai 31:51

Yeah. And if you're setting an intention for your creative time, there's also a sense of accomplishment of, I did the thing that I wanted to do today.

Zaheda Ghani 31:59

Yes.

Natasha Rai 32:00

Yes. And how are you feeling about, uh, not so much the manuscript, but the pro this process again, does it feel different to the first time?

Zaheda Ghani 32:09

It doesn't in that I know I can disappear into the scene I'm writing and, uh, and how it feels is the same. I think, um, there is a, I'm not expecting that just because I got published the first time, it will see the light of day, the second time, and I'm holding onto that expectation because it's a reality, right?

Natasha Rai 32:34

Yeah. Yeah.

Zaheda Ghani 32:35

The first one, because I didn't even have anything, I didn't have to control for expectation or because I know how it feels. It's kind of like I'm not thinking about that. I've kind of like compartmentalized it because it was about that journey. I feel if I, if I hadn't had that journey, I would still be much more, I guess it'll be like much less of a, an issue or, or question. So it's really important for me to go back to. Even if it doesn't get published, who am I writing this for? It's actually, I'm writing it for me. Yeah. Oh, that's what makes it fun.

Natasha Rai 33:13

Yeah. But you know, Zaheda that like that is a very difficult thing for a lot of writers to do because once they have their first novel maybe picked up, one of the things I've heard a lot about is disappointment in terms of trying to get your second book out or working on it, so that feels very healthy and refreshing that you are able to do that for yourself. That you are able to say, you know what? I wanna write this for me, and I'm taking the expectation of publication out.

Zaheda Ghani 33:42

Yeah. And I think, um, whenever I've done something creative. The more it's meant to me, the more it's meant to others. And maybe it's not gonna work with the second novel. It doesn't matter because it doesn't, it's not like a, we, we don't have switches, right? For these things. Um, even small things that I've written or I used to design clothes once upon a time. Like the things that really resonated were because I was the most, the things that are most authentic to me. So that's kind of where I'm anchoring it in terms of. If I have fun doing it, it was worth it, basically. Yeah. It doesn't, about the other stuff, the other stuff is outta my control.

Natasha Rai 34:21

True. It, it does take a lot of practice and experience, I think as well to be able to say, I can actively not think about that or push that away for now.

Zaheda Ghani 34:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and, and what I, what I also mean is, do I. Do I still feel the same as I did the first time, which is, I'm gonna tell you a story, okay? A story I'm interested in. I, it's fun and cool, and then so I'm thinking of you, but I'm not doing it for you.

Natasha Rai 34:57

Exactly. Yes, yes. You're doing it for the love of storytelling. You're doing it for the love of the creative flow, and you're doing it for the love of the craft as well.

Zaheda Ghani 35:07

It's actually the characters'cause they're so weird and fun and whatever, and then it's, and the voice of what the right word will, how the right word will land, what's the right word? That kind of feeling of landing the right sentence and saying, oh, that's the right kind of, I guess, feeling I wanna convey in this sentence. And then it's, it's those things in within it, within the craft or as you as.

Natasha Rai 35:35

Yeah. Is that your always your starting point or does it feel like that's where you always like to start with characters?

Zaheda Ghani 35:42

Good question. I think, yes. I think the character is trying to think. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Because as I get to know them then, then I can get to know where, what they will, what they will do, and then the rest.

Natasha Rai 36:00

Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's so interesting to me because you and one other writer are the only two people I know that start in this point.'cause that's how I start. I usually start with the character or characters and I just have to wait so they can tell me what they're gonna do and what they're up to. And when you talk to people who, who write in a different way, or people who don't write, they're like, yeah, but how does that work because you are making it up. I'm like, well, sort of, but not really. It just happens.

Zaheda Ghani 36:29

Isn't that the, isn't that so true? Because. I don't know where the things come from, right? You just typing, thoughts are coming, ideas are, and you just type the ideas.

Natasha Rai 36:39

It's like a conduit, like you're just Yeah. Yeah. You're flowing and you're just doing it.

Zaheda Ghani 36:43

Yeah. You're having fun. You can see them. I can see them in, you know, a small room. Uh, right now this like a scene that would just, like in my head, I, there was a small room, she was sitting there, there was a curtain of a certain fabric and I was like, yeah. And that's not just our imagination doing what it does, right?

Natasha Rai 37:00

Yeah. Yeah.

Zaheda Ghani 37:02

Yeah.

Natasha Rai 37:02

Once you give it the enough space and time and all the, all the lovely things that are within our control to help the imagination.

Zaheda Ghani 37:09

You got it.

Natasha Rai 37:10

Good. Yeah.

Zaheda Ghani 37:11

You got it. I was the other day speaking, um, with um, someone in our, in our writing group actually, about what, how do we get to the end? How do we get to a finished novel? And it's like some folks like to write the structure and then fill in.

Natasha Rai 37:28

Yes. Mm-hmm.

Zaheda Ghani 37:31

Mm-hmm. And I, I write with scenes will just come and I will just write them and then I will need to be a reader, come back to it after a while to see if things are happening.

Natasha Rai 37:43

I get it.

Zaheda Ghani 37:44

It's so amazing how there's such different ways of accessing what's in our imagination and getting it on.

Natasha Rai 37:49

Exactly. Yeah. And, uh, we are coming to the end, so just have a. A couple of final questions. Um, in terms of, it's kind of the same question, but I'm gonna put into, in, into two different ways. What have you learned along the way about any of it, whether, whether it's publication or writing, and do you have any tips or top tips for other emerging writers?

Zaheda Ghani 38:16

Sure. Um, what I have learned, and this is something, you know, from the year of novel that, uh, really stuck with me is. There isn't really a criteria for whether you are a writer or not, that kind of, um, wanting to pass a gate or earning it as a right is not a thing. If we are writing, because that's where we like to have our creative outlet, then we are a writer. It doesn't matter. Beyond that. I think that is one of the big lessons that I've still keep, uh, worked hard to keep as well, because it's very easy to fall into the, all of the other stuff that comes with, and maybe it might hinder me showing up.

Natasha Rai 39:01

So. Yeah. And lots of emerging writers do that, that kind of mini minimizing and that shrinking into self. And you, you can barely utter the words I'm a writer.

Zaheda Ghani 39:11

Yes, yes. Um, the tips would be to, um, I guess. I'm not an expert, but I think it's connected to that point, which is trust yourself. If you love it, then that is where the celebration comes from because, you know, the pro, that process of, um, um, Emily calls it, you know, that she, she mentioned she was quoting someone, and I cannot remember the details. It was like the image you have of what it should sound like is very different to what ends up when you actually. Put it on the page and then the journey is making the to match, you know? Um, it's like how do I refine this thing I've got on the page to match the vision in my head? Yes. Right? Yes. If you got a paragraph that matches the vision in your head to a level you are happy with, it's a win.

Natasha Rai 40:07

And that's why you love the editing and polishing, because that's literally the work to get the two matching right? Because your first draft, it's very rare. You might have moments of brilliance, but most of it's not going to match. Yes. Oh, I like that a lot. Uh, so for your manuscript then, and I'm, this is not about you needing to tell me anything more about it if you don't want to. Do you have a timeframe in mind for when you would like to finish a draft, or is that feeling like too much pressure to think of it like that?

Zaheda Ghani 40:39

It's definitely a lot of pressure to think of it that way, but I also won't do it if I don't set myself a deadline. So I wanna have a, you know, by the end of the year if I can, I, I wanna be in a point where I've got what I think is a first draft.

Natasha Rai 40:53

Mm-hmm.

Zaheda Ghani 40:54

Um, that has everything in it, but that's a very ambitious goal. If I, if I said something, I'll get something close. If I said nothing, I'll probably just wander. For another few years.

Natasha Rai 41:08

Again, it's that setting of intention that you mentioned earlier.

Zaheda Ghani 41:11

Yeah.

Natasha Rai 41:12

Uh, well, Zaheda Ghani, thank you so much for your generosity and taking the time to talk to me today.

Zaheda Ghani 41:19

Thank you for having me.

Natasha Rai 41:20

It's been my absolute pleasure.

Tina Strachan 41:26

Thank you for listening to the Book Deal podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the pod so you can receive updates as soon as our new EPS drop and to keep up to date with what the pod is doing. You can also find us on Instagram.