The Book Deal

Sophie Beer on the importance of writing inclusively and her new middle grade novel, Thunderhead

• Tina Strachan

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Tina Strachan chats with Sophie Beer, a prolific children's literature author and illustrator. The discussion delves into Sophie's journey in publishing, her passion for inclusivity in writing, and the inspiration behind her middle-grade book, 'Thunderhead,' which features a music-obsessed tween facing the challenges of hearing loss. Sophie also shares valuable insights on how to write inclusively and authentically about characters with disabilities and diverse backgrounds. The episode highlights the importance of well-rounded, three-dimensional characters and offers practical advice for authors aiming to represent diverse experiences thoughtfully and respectfully.

00:00 Welcome to The Book Deal Podcast
00:43 Interview with Sophie Beer: Inclusivity in Writing
03:37 Sophie's Journey
05:47 Balancing Work and Family Life
13:34 Music and Creativity: A Deep Dive
20:00 Thunderhead and the Thunderstorm
20:28 Signed Copies and Bookshops
21:26 Character Inspirations and Personal Experiences
24:22 Introducing 'Inked' by Karen Wasson
25:39 Writing Characters with Disabilities
29:49 Avoiding Inspiration Porn
33:33 Inclusion and Sensitivity in Writing
43:57 The Importance of Trying
45:02 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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Tina Strachan:

This is the Book Deal podcast

Madeleine Cleary:

where you will discover the inspiring stories, the authors behind your favourite books. No matter what stage of writing you are at, we've got you covered. I'm Tina Strachan. And I'm Madeleine Cleary. And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors one

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at a time. The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on. And pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.

Speaker:

Hi, it's Tina here and I'm very excited for this week's episode where I had the opportunity to speak with a lovely Sophie Beer. Sophie is prolifically published in the children's literature space with both her unique and quirky art and thoughtful, important storytelling. I really wanted to chat with Sophie to discuss the importance of inclusivity in writing as this is something she's very passionate about and demonstrates in much of her work. We discussed her most recent book, a middle grade called Thunderhead, about an awkward music obsessed tween who feels they're a magnet for bad luck, especially when they're diagnosed with a genetic disorder that results in hearing loss. Because Thunderhead is a major music fan, just like Sophie is in real life. We also discuss the impact music can have on your life and on your writing. And the really cool thing about our chat as we discussed her Thunderhead book, we both had actual real thunder in the background as our storm descended on both of our cities. It was pretty cool. I was going to edit it out until I realized the significance. I hope you enjoy my chat with Sophie and can take away some tips and advice on how to write inclusively in the right way.

Tina Strachan:

Sophie Beer. Welcome to the book Deal podcast.

Sophie Beer:

Oh, thank you. So delighted to.

Tina Strachan:

Oh, it's, it's, I am very excited to have you here and I've, um, always admired your work and I have so many questions to ask you about, um, your journey.'cause it's been, it's been quite a big and eventful journey for you hasn't it, to get to this point now.

Sophie Beer:

Yeah. Yeah. Like it's, um, definitely, yeah, definitely been a few years in the making. So yeah, I'm excited to chat it all through because I think this is the first time I've probably laid everything out and like actually examined it. So it'll be interesting.

Tina Strachan:

oh, good goodie. Yes. And your, your back catalog is incredible. I, you've written and illustrated everything from board books to nonfiction to. You know, picture books to, and now all the way up to middle grade with Thunderhead. Um, and, and they've been translated into many different languages. I actually couldn't, yeah, there's so many that when I went to sort of have a little look and try and work it out, I actually couldn't get to the bottom of it. How many you had? I was looking on Amazon books at one point and there was 10 pages of Sophie Beer and I was like, I just, I don't know where it starts and. stops and. So how, how many have you had published now of individual books?

Sophie Beer:

I can't, uh, I should really go through and count them all one day. Um, it's upwards of 30. I know, I know that because I, I did count them a few years ago. Um, but yeah, it's, uh, that's combining like my, my author illustrated plus my, like, the stuff I've just illustrated. Um, and even just like smaller stuff that I, maybe I just had a part in an anthology and stuff like that, so, um, yeah. Yeah, I've, um, definitely, I had my hand in it for a while, so.

Tina Strachan:

Yeah. No, it's awesome. What year was your first book published? Because that, this is also something that I tried to find and I couldn't

Sophie Beer:

Yeah, so my first ever book, uh, was, um, Wren, which was published by, uh, scribble Scribble. It's the amazing scribble books from London, uh, London, sorry, Melbourne. Um, and uh, written by Katrina Layman, who is absolutely amazing. And I also illustrated, her book is Ian Frank. Um, and that came out in 2018, I think, or 2017. I can't quite remember. Um, and I'm a bit fuzzy with the details on that because like I, I'm sure we'll get into it later. But, uh, so when I was contracted to do that, illustrate that book, I got, I finished the roughs and I presented the roughs and was onto doing the final illustrations when I got diagnosed with my brain tumor. And so I had to take a year off work and, um, recover and, and everything. So that kind of blew everything back. So it was, I, it was meant to come out in 20. 15 or 16, but it ended up coming out in 2017 or 18. Um, yeah, so that, that, that is like, that was actually my first book. But then I think my first ever published book was Love Makes a Family, um, which is a board book. Uh, uh, it was published with Hardie Grant. Um, and that was 2017 or 18 as well. I think it, it pipped Wren by just a few months.

Tina Strachan:

Okay. Yes.'cause I, I was sort of thinking 2017, 2018, that's not really that long ago though, is.

Sophie Beer:

Yeah. Like I think that, but then I'm like, oh, that's almost 10 years.

Tina Strachan:

It's like when people say that the nineties are like, how long

Sophie Beer:

Yeah,

Tina Strachan:

we're like, oh, hang on. No, that was just, Yeah, it was not that long ago. Uh, yeah, but still

Sophie Beer:

I, you know,

Tina Strachan:

30 published books though in that time is

Sophie Beer:

I know it's, yeah. I'm a bit of a workaholic. It's, yeah, a bit bad, like it's.

Tina Strachan:

But it is one of those industries that, um, you do have to. Role that when it comes in, you just have to take what you can get and and grasp at everything. Do you think

Sophie Beer:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very zeitgeisty, which is, yeah, it's probably a reason that I probably work a bit more than I should. Um, but I think having kids has kind of slowed that down a bit. Like I've been able to be a bit more choosy with my work'cause I'm only working part-time at the moment. And, um, kind of, you know, like working as an illustrator. You have that like starving artist mentality, you're like, oh, I, I'm not really passionate about this project, but I'll take it on either anyway because it's gonna pay the bills. Um, whereas I feel like nowadays I can kind of be a bit more choosy and be like, well, I'm only, I only work three days a week. Um, I only have a limited amount of books I can schedule per year, so I'm gonna have to be a bit more choosy about projects and things like that. So, um, I mean, that's nice to be a bit. A bit chewier, but yeah, I guess it means you end up having less money, so either being stressed or

Tina Strachan:

Yeah. But it is, yeah, I agree. When you have children, you just, you time and the value of time just becomes. So very clear, doesn't it? Like you have, you know, you're working around nap time and you're working around, you know, school drop off and pick up and you can literally just say, okay, this is actually how many hours I have in a week to produce something. And times that over the year, this is only, I can only do X amount of books or produce X amount of

Sophie Beer:

Yeah, yeah,

Tina Strachan:

just is no more time to give. It cannot come from anywhere else.

Sophie Beer:

Yeah, it's, it's, it's so funny, like, I always say that to myself and I'm like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna cut down on the number of things I do, and then someone will come to me with a great project and I'll be like, oh, I guess I'm gonna have to squeeze it in. And yeah, it's gotta the point where my agent has been like, Sophie, stop.

Tina Strachan:

Oh,

Sophie Beer:

You need to, you need to, you need to stop.

Tina Strachan:

you just can't stop being so

Sophie Beer:

calm, calm.

Tina Strachan:

Oh, I know.

Sophie Beer:

Which, yeah, it's, it's, I mean, I wouldn't trade it off for anything in the world. Like I, I love my, I love my boys so much, but, um, yeah, it does, it does, particularly with women, it comes at the expense of, um, you know, being as productive with work. I, like, I, I recently started up at a studio, which has been really cool, um, in an effort to kind of separate my work and life balance a bit more. So I, like, instead of working at home, because I've, I've been a freelance illustrator for. Actually 10 years. Yeah, it would've been 2015. I started, um, the end of 2015. Um, and I've just worked at home for 10 years and it got to the point where my youngest, my 1-year-old went to daycare, uh, like. We've only been there two months and I was like, I can't stay at home by myself. I'm, I'm gonna go crazy. I need to, I need to have more of like a work-life balance, um, like a separation. I can't just keep working in, in my office at home anymore. So yeah, feel I'm working at a studio with a whole of other illustrators and, and, um, artists and things like that. It's, yeah, it's been really lovely. But, um, yeah, it, it is definitely is very hard'cause that it puts more time pressure, like you're like, uh. I do the daycare drop off, then I have to travel all the way to the studio, and then I have to travel from the studio to day daycare drop off, and it compresses everything a lot. But, uh, I feel like I'm more focused that way. Like, I'm

Tina Strachan:

say, are you more productive because you're not just going like, oh, and I'll just go pop a load of washing on and hang that out and then kind of get stuck and, yeah, and, and maybe working with other people as well. Do you find that social and just

Sophie Beer:

yeah. Oh. Yeah, definitely. My, um, my husband is a medical professional. He's a, a brain researcher and he talks a lot about how um, a risk for dementia with older people is lack of socialization.

Tina Strachan:

Oh,

Sophie Beer:

I know I always used to think of that, like when I was in my studio, well, in my studio at home, working by myself, and I'm like, I haven't talked to anyone in like two days, apart from my husband's.

Tina Strachan:

he

Sophie Beer:

around other people. Yeah, just it's nice. It's nice. Um, yeah. But yeah, it does, it does compress your time a lot. But yeah, I, I have been a lot more choosy with my projects since having kids and, um, yeah, that's been really lovely because it means I, I'm working on things I'm really passionate about and, and, um, working on books that I really believe in, which has been really lovely.

Tina Strachan:

Yeah. It must be hard to say no though, still. Like how

Sophie Beer:

hard. Yeah.

Tina Strachan:

I mean, it's a problem we all want, right?

Sophie Beer:

I think like for me it also like going back to that starving artist mentality. Like I, whenever I turn down a job, I always think, well maybe, you know, I won't get another job for, you know, a few months. So did I just turn down and an opportunity to pay this huge bill that might come hap that might happen. Um, which is probably, you know, my, my anxious brain just being silly'cause like. My husband works in medicine. He has an extremely stable job.

Tina Strachan:

Yeah. Yeah.

Sophie Beer:

The government is not gonna pay him for, you know, his research, but you know.

Tina Strachan:

Yes. Uh, I don't think you

Sophie Beer:

Yeah. Like

Tina Strachan:

about about jobs coming in. I think, I mean, for yourself, like, you know, if you're turning them down and with such, uh, your back catalog and your portfolio, I'm,

Sophie Beer:

Oh, that's nice. Actually, just turned out a really big job, and I felt so bad about it. I was, I was just like, I, I just looked at my schedule. I was like, I can't, I can't, I legitimately can't do this. I'll just be too stressed. And I would rather give the books that I'm working on at the moment, the attention they deserve instead of trying to be everywhere at once. So,

Tina Strachan:

yeah. And probably the person, um, who's offered it to you that you have turned down would prefer you to be open and honest in the first instance. Then try and push through and stress yourself and, you know, maybe not deliver or. You know, have to sort of push those delivery kind of deadlines and stuff like that to get it done. They, you

Sophie Beer:

Oh,

Tina Strachan:

probably appreciate the honesty.

Sophie Beer:

yeah, I, I did the opposite of that when I was about to go on mat leave.'cause I got the offer to illustrate the Taylor Swift book with,

Tina Strachan:

Mm-hmm.

Sophie Beer:

Penguin New York, and I was talking to my agent, I was like, oh, legitimately can't turn this down. I love Taylor Swift. This is amazing.

Tina Strachan:

Yes.

Sophie Beer:

when am I ever gonna be offered this look again? So I,

Tina Strachan:

I, was gonna ask you about them. So that's the, um, little p little People Big Dreams books. Was that

Sophie Beer:

I did Elton John for them. Yeah. Little people, big dreams. Uh, but this one is, uh, it's called Tiny Idols. It's like a

Tina Strachan:

oh, yes,

Sophie Beer:

artists. Yeah. It's very cute.

Tina Strachan:

yes. But I mean, even Elton John for the Little People Big Dreams. Um, but it wasn't just, just Taylor Swift though, was it that you did.

Sophie Beer:

No, no. So I did, yeah, I did Elton John for little people big dreams, which was like a dream come true.'cause I'm such a big Elton John fan. Like I, um, I legitimately like, this sounds fake, but this actually happened. I got the email asking me to illustrate that book when I was on the way to an Elton John concert. Yeah. It was like spooky synchronicity. Yeah, it was,

Tina Strachan:

Spooky. Would you, did you just read it thinking this is some kind of, am I act? Am I actually dreaming like is.

Sophie Beer:

I, I, I screamed so loud in the car that people thought that like, there was like a semitrailer oncoming into traffic towards us. Like it was, I was with my mother-in-law who was like the loveliest best in the world, but she's a bit like DIY and a bit like, whoa.

Tina Strachan:

Oh, what's

Sophie Beer:

She was like,

Tina Strachan:

stressing her out?

Sophie Beer:

yes.

Tina Strachan:

no.

Sophie Beer:

And then there was my, um, my sister-in-law who was like nine months pregnant at that time, and she was like, ing a belly. I was like, it's all right everyone. We're not in imminent danger of a traffic accident. I just got a really cool job offer. That's all.

Tina Strachan:

Which deserves screaming though, I really didn't. Oh,

Sophie Beer:

Yeah, yeah.

Tina Strachan:

that's incredible

Sophie Beer:

very fun. With the Taylor and the Taylor Swift, the little, not, sorry, not little people. Big dreams in Tiny Idols, which is the line with, um, penguin Random House. They have, there's Taylor Swift, Beyonce. Um, Harry Styles and I've just finished bts, Billy Eilish and I'm working on Ariana Grande. So yeah,

Tina Strachan:

BTS. That's so cool.

Sophie Beer:

there are seven of them.

Tina Strachan:

I only, oh

Sophie Beer:

me seven times longer till

Tina Strachan:

I only found out about BTS'cause I have an 11-year-old, or it was, you know, so, um, oh, it was just, it's just, there was just one song I think that they used to play on repeat a couple of years ago. I'll have to tell him. I'll have to tell him about it. Um, that's pretty cool because music is a big part of your life, isn't it?

Sophie Beer:

Yes. A huge part. Yes. So I used to be a music reviewer back long ago, um, in my late teens, early twenties. And I was just like the biggest music obsessive, um, didn't play any instruments myself, didn't sing, couldn't, you know, for Jack, but, uh, just would obsessed with it. It's like when I think back on that time in my life, I think of music and I actually met my now husband. Uh, said, brain expert on, on, uh, a music forum hilariously. Um, yeah, and then we met at a music gig. So I, my, my two sons wouldn't exist if it weren't for my obsession with music, which is kind of baffling to think about,

Tina Strachan:

Do you, can I ask you, do you listen to music when you write or, or, or draw when you're

Sophie Beer:

uh, when I, uh, it depends what I'm doing. Um. I find it distracts me a bit too much if it's got like lyrics and stuff like that. Uh, I kind of just need silence when I'm writing because, uh, yeah, I, I, I get too distracted. But if I'm illustrating, like, it depends on the level of complication, like complexity. Usually I just, uh, I, I'm listening to an audiobook or a podcast. Um, if it's something I can just like, kind of, you know, uh. Spin my brain out and then just like,

Tina Strachan:

Yeah.

Sophie Beer:

just like coloring or something like that. But if it's something like if I'm drawing drafting illustrations or I'm illustrating a picture book and I need to, to be doing like thumbnailing or sketching or something like that, then involves sort of brain power. I'll, um, I'll be listening to an album Yeah. But not as much as I used to, which is a bit sad. Um, which I'm sure Yeah. We'll, we'll get into because.

Tina Strachan:

Yeah. Oh,

Sophie Beer:

lay all these breadcrumbs down for your listeners.

Tina Strachan:

know, I know. oh, this is,

Sophie Beer:

What's gonna happen?

Tina Strachan:

I like it. Love it. Stay tuned for more. Oh, that's pretty exciting. I listen. I actually sometimes do and sometimes don't. Like you said with. Music and I, um, have been working on this one project recently, and I've never done this before. I'm gonna sound crazy. People are gonna be like, oh, she just has the weirdest writing style. I've ne I have never done this before, but it's sort of this, this book sort of, um, takes place. There's a couple of chapters probably the last half where they, um, kind of in, I don't, I just, did you hear that thunder? Yeah, I did actually.

Sophie Beer:

Yeah. Yeah, I do.

Tina Strachan:

Yeah, it just, just came rolling

Sophie Beer:

here too. Yeah.

Tina Strachan:

I was like, what is that?

Sophie Beer:

It'll hit me. It'll hit me in like a few, few minutes. Yeah.

Tina Strachan:

we've got the same storm cell coming through. Um, yeah, so I'm, I am writing this book at the moment. It's in sort of two different. Like another world kind of at the end. It's not fantasy, but it's just like they're, they're in a game kind of at the end. And, um, I did this weird thing where I felt like whenever they were in that world, I had to be in a particular zone and a particular mind frame for it. So. I even, but because I kept wanting to progress it, I would just, I actually wrote the other chapters around it because I knew what was gonna happen. Oh. that sounds really weird. I knew what was gonna happen in those other world scenes. I knew how it was gonna feel at the end of it. I knew what was gonna happen in them. I just had to write them so I could write the other I. In between chapters. So when I had to, when I was writing that in another World chapters, I had to stream a particular kind of music and be in a particular kind of area where I could a hundred percent focus. But it was like, if I turned it on, it was like a switch and it just, I could have written it without the music, like I probably could have pushed through, but it certainly made a huge difference. As soon as I turned it on, it just like kind of got me in that space and it's, I couldn't have written it without it. It's so music's really powerful like that, isn't it?

Sophie Beer:

Mm-hmm. Like, I've done so many writing courses where, um, the, the mentor will say something like, if you're stuck on a particular scene. Put on an a song that matches or gives you that same emotion that you're trying to elicit in the reader, which I've never actually tried to do that. Um, yeah, like I said, I prefer silence when I'm writing. But, um, yeah, that doesn't surprise me.'cause music kind of tips into that, like. Limbic system in your brain where it's like, it's like almost lizard brain, like, you know, um, it's, it, it's on another plane of reality. It's not really connected to surface emotions, it's something deeper. Uh, so yeah, it's, it's, it's funny how your, your mind is kind of associated that with, with that particular scene you are writing and you're like, I, yeah. This is the, the part of my brain that needs to be writing in charge when I'm writing this bit. It's, yeah, it's

Tina Strachan:

yeah. yeah. If it ever sees the light of day, hopefully it does this book that I'm working on at the moment, um, you'll, I think, I think you'll see why if you read it, you'll be like, um, I can see that. But um, yeah. I have playlists as well. Yeah. Thunder. Um, it was really loud. I have playlists as well that I create Oh, for books, even if I haven't quite written them yet. And I've done that for oh, looks nice. I like the em. Yeah. And sometimes I'll listen to them when I'm driving. Um, I've had to do lots of Brisbane trips lately. It's two two hours each way at the moment, and it's horrifying. But anyway, it does give me a good chance to listen to that music. And it, honestly, it just plays out scenes in my head, so and so clearly, and then all I have to, all I have to do is write it down. Simple. It's simple as that.

Sophie Beer:

I think it's'cause it's kind of like music can be this sort of like little snippet of emotion, you know, stuffed into a, stuffed into a word file a word, um, sorry, uh, sound file. And it's, it's, it kind of, accessing those emotions is so easy when you just cross play and it's. Automatically there. Um, there are so many times that I've had a song associated with, you know, a particular feeling or, you know, like when you get the goosebumps on your arms and you listen to the song and you can always access that feeling just by pressing play. It's just like you always get the goosebumps or you always feel that particular emotion and it's, yeah, it's so cool. But I love that idea of like forming worlds around playlists. That's really cool. I

Tina Strachan:

I've heard, yeah, I've heard that some people have, like, some authors have like Spotify lists that they tell their, you know, readers about if they want to sort of delve into it a little bit more.

Sophie Beer:

Yeah, it's lovely. Oh, like, oh, like, um, uh, film scores. Yes.

Tina Strachan:

yeah, yeah. It's like a soundtrack. And I think,'cause I see movies, I see books in my, stories in my head, like a movie as well. It just sounds like a backing list for it. It's, Yeah. it's

Sophie Beer:

so cool. Yeah.

Tina Strachan:

But, um, in your middle grade book that you've just released, Thunderhead,

Sophie Beer:

Yay. Yeah.

Tina Strachan:

it's been out, it's been out for a couple of months now, hasn't it?

Sophie Beer:

Yeah, since, um, uh, early, oh, late October last year,

Tina Strachan:

Okay.

Sophie Beer:

so October, 2024. Yeah,

Tina Strachan:

So the thunderhead, uh, the character in your book, uh, and the whole book. Ooh, there's your thunder. See,

Sophie Beer:

that's my thunder. Yeah. Whoa, Thunderhead.

Tina Strachan:

Oh my

Sophie Beer:

all coming together. I actually arranged this with the

Tina Strachan:

are so good. I was gonna cut the thunder out, but now I'm like, no, this is, I'm keeping this thunder

Sophie Beer:

cinematic.

Tina Strachan:

This is perfect.

Sophie Beer:

It's our, It's our, soundtrack.

Tina Strachan:

And it's so funny when I saw you at the, um, the right links, um, the book links romancing the stars the other week, and I was like, I didn't bring my copy. I wanted you to sign it for me. And then I realized, I actually bought a signed copy anyway when I bought it from the,

Sophie Beer:

That's so lovely. Oh, which workshop was that?

Tina Strachan:

uh, I always say this wrong kin.

Sophie Beer:

Yes. I just say keno. Okay. Because I'm, yeah. I'm not a Sydney, Sydney person, so, yeah. Oh, that's so lovely. Oh,

Tina Strachan:

Yeah. I'm not a Sydney person either. Hence why? We dunno how to say it. They say it

Sophie Beer:

Yeah.

Tina Strachan:

Just like Nu

Sophie Beer:

I, I get out of the way by saying keno. Yeah.

Tina Strachan:

Nu yeah. I like that. Oh, and an incredible shop. Like I, I went there two days in a row. It was amazing.

Sophie Beer:

It's like heaven, isn't it? It's got a cafe attached. So it's like you get your coffee, just wander around, get lost in the book maze. It's beautiful. Yeah. Um, but

Tina Strachan:

Sorry, I'm just loving this thunder happening in the background as we're talking about Thunderhead your middle

Sophie Beer:

so atmospheric.

Tina Strachan:

October last year, Thunderhead, um, is almost as obsessed with music as you are. So there's a little bit of, a lot of you in this book, isn't there? Uh.

Sophie Beer:

Yeah. I kind of, um. I mean, I, I feel like I'm, I'm pretty dissimilar to the actual character of Thunderhead, uh, which I did purposely, purposefully, because I was like, I don't want my mom or someone reading this book and being like, Sophie just put, like, put herself in a book. So I, I tried to, I distinctly tried to separate myself from the character and then my mom read the book and was like, it was just you, Sophie. And I was like, dad.

Tina Strachan:

I know. Yeah. I don't think you can get away with it. I've, I've, thought about that before. It's very hard to write a character that's kind of not you. Like I've had that question as well, is, is your character actually you? And I'm like, I, well, I tried not to,

Sophie Beer:

Try not to. Yeah, I, I mean I guess it's, um, idiosyncra is idiosyncra. I can never say that word. You know what I mean? Uh, they kind of just bleed through, like characteristics and traits bleed through from your, from yourself into your writing. And it's just

Tina Strachan:

Without even

Sophie Beer:

not, avoidable. Yeah, unavoidable. Um, but, uh, yeah, so Thunderhead is absolutely obsessed with music pop, like more than I was, I would say, which is saying something because. I was very obsessed, but music is like what they live and breathe and, you know, that's their reason for living. And, uh, then they go on a journey because they conflict. They find out that they have a genetic disease, which means that they're gonna be going deaf. So yeah, that's the, yeah, the, the crux of the book, um, yeah. A bit sad, but it's a funny book, I swear. It's funny. I hope.

Tina Strachan:

It is funny. It is. It's really, I know you see, you have to have that conflict in there, obviously for, you know, to make the book work. But of course it's, it's how you sort of encapsulate it, sort of everything else around it and create the world around it. Right.

Sophie Beer:

Oh definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think like that, the, the humor of the book really came from, I. Because I myself dealt with the same brain tumor that thunderhead in the character, the main character the book has. Um, I don't have the genetic disease that Thunderhead has. Um, but I had a, like the same tumor that I have. Um, so like, and when I went through that, that was, uh, 20 I. 2017, when I went through that experience, I found the whole thing funny. Like it was horrifying and really sad, but like there was just this, this undercurrent of like dark humor to it all because it was like. Of course, the person who is absolutely obsessed with music is going to become hard of hearing, you know, the person who met their husband on a music forum is going to lose their hearing. Like, it was just kind of like, a bit like funny and ironic and it was, yeah, I, I just saw the humor in it. And, um, I think, yeah, that's where that, that kind of, that gall's humor, the black humor kind of came through that way.

Karen Wasson:

Hello, I'm Karen Wasson, member of the 2025 debut crew and author of Inked, A Middle grade graphic novel from Hardie Grant's brand new imprint, Figment with brilliant illustrations by JK Minton. Inked is a story of Sid Kraken, a 12-year-old boy who just wants to avoid the bullies, keep his head down, and get through his final year at primary school. But Sid's life is turned entirely upside down when he discovers Otto. A talking and opera singing octopus in his family's fish shop. Otto is obnoxious, demanding, and won't leave Sid alone until he helps him get to the ocean roughly 300 kilometers away. Plus, Sid has bigger fish to fry. He has to figure out how to get into the art school of his dreams or else high school. Next year will be a nightmare. Canid and Otto find a way to work together or will it all end in full blown disaster. Filled with slapstick humor and heart inked is a story about blending in and standing out and is available now in all good bookstores and libraries. I hope you enjoy this small town big time adventure, and a huge thank you to the Book Deal podcast for this wonderful opportunity to share.

Tina Strachan:

one of the main reasons why I wanted to, um, chat to you today as well about, you know, Thunderhead and you, it, it was such a wonderful story and the way that you, um, that Thunderhead sort of worked through everything and very much for that age group.'cause she's 12, turning 13.

Sophie Beer:

Yes. 12 20 13.

Tina Strachan:

Yeah. So, you know, her reactions and everything to it is exactly, you know, what kids would, would go through as well. But, um, it all works out in the end, spoiler alert, but without giving too much away, you know, it's, it was really, you know, it was just spoke to a lot of, you know, resilience in children and, and acceptance as well, I

Sophie Beer:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was, um, there's definitely like a lot of emotions that they work through, but I think like with, with something like a genetic disorder, there's, there's no way I. I mean, you can have a happy ending in that you have that like radical acceptance that that is going to be your life now. Um, and like I, I speak from a place of experience because I have a genetic condition, but it's not the same one as Thunderhead has. It was a different one, which was actually what inspired me to sit down and write the novel because I had, that had this idea of floating around my head for a few years after I had the tumor. And I was like, this would've been so much worse if I was like in that like 12, 13, 14-year-old kind of. Stage of life where you tie your identity to whatever band you're in love with. And, um, music was so integral, like to who I was around that time, you know, like your favorite band would be like who you were that week. Like I was, I've really been good Charlotte, for when I was that age and that was how I

Tina Strachan:

Who wasn't.

Sophie Beer:

I was like, yeah, right.

Tina Strachan:

Oh, really?

Sophie Beer:

Yeah. I was, I was like, it was Sophie, the good Charlotte fan. It was, yeah. That was me. So, um. Yeah, I thought like it would just, it was kind of like a, um, a ripe idea for a novel, I guess, to, um, have someone around that age who was invested their identity so much in music to have to go through like this life-changing experience with the, with hearing loss, but then also having the genetic condition on top. Um, yeah, it's just like a lot of emotions to work through, which is, I, I like, yeah, I, I definitely try to imbue a lot of hope into it because, um, I, I strongly believe. Uh, if there's one thing that children's authors can do is give kids hope. Like it's, um, it's our imperative to, to handle story for young people with a sense of hope and a sense of, of, um, hope for the future. So, uh, like I take that very seriously and, um, I didn't really wanna write a sad book. I didn't, I didn't want it to be sad. I wanted it to be like funny, but also, um, life-affirming.

Tina Strachan:

Yeah. And I think Thunderhead comes across as really strong. You've, you've written really strong character, so, and, and her friend, her friend group as well is, um, yeah, pretty incredible. It's

Sophie Beer:

they're the best. Yeah.

Tina Strachan:

yeah. So I wanted to, sorry, I'm actually a little bit selfish, I have to say in that, um, even just creating this whole podcast with Madeline, um, Cleary, my co-host, she, we always say like, um. This is basically just us doing research for our, for ourselves. And it's like I have all, we have all these questions, um, that we wanna ask other authors, and we love hearing author stories about, um, how they got to, um, their journeys to publications. So why don't we just ask'em, but we'll record it and share it with, with everybody else. But it's, but you know, we've, I feel very fortunate that I can, you know, pin you down and, and be like, can you, you know, I really wanted to talk to you about, um, writing. Uh, characters with, um, medical conditions, you know, diverse characters, um, characters with disabilities because there's, um, because I need to know more myself. I, I, it's something that I want to know more about and I'm sure there's lots of other listeners who do as well. And, um, and I know it's important to you, it's something that you feel very strongly about. And I know there's some really wrong ways of doing it,

Sophie Beer:

Oh yeah.

Tina Strachan:

so, you know, and, and there's some really right ways. But can we talk about some of the, the wrong ways to, what are the absolute

Sophie Beer:

Uh, yeah. Um, I think it was, uh, the disability activist Stella Young, who came up with the idea of inspiration porn, which is like having a disabled character just to be like, uh. Your inspiration just be inspirational to all the other non-disabled people around them. Um, which is like, it was something I cognitively understood, but then when I became hard of hearing myself, I really understood it. It was, um, yeah, it was, it was really foundational to me because, you know, just being this objective, not pity, but, but like inspiration, like that's, that's all. Someone's entire life story can be whittled down to as just being inspirational for other people. So I, I, I really, really like, like three dimensional representations of disabled kids and disabled characters. You know, people who aren't completely, I. Inspirational Porny. They're not, they're not just like these, these, these virtuous, um, paragons of, of, you know, loveliness and oh, accepting us and martyrdom and, and you, oh, there's, they can do no wrong. They're just, you're just sweetie and they're disabled. They, you know, just, just to be there inspirational for other people. Um,

Tina Strachan:

Yep.

Sophie Beer:

yeah, I, that's a really wrong way to, to. To, uh, have a, a disabled character of like, if you're gonna have a disabled, disabled character in you're writing, make them a 3D human, make them, um, have flaws, negatives, like you don't, you don't need to handle them with like kid gloves just because they're disabled, uh, because they're, they're in person in their own right. And, um, they deserve all the flaws and all the complexity that comes with writing a non-disabled character. So, I guess. Getting rid of that otherness, like acknowledging that disability is an otherness in itself, but being proud of that otherness and being, you know, um, being able to give that character the whole breadth, that breadth that you would to a non-disabled character. Uh, that's, I definitely, um, have picked that up so many times in, in books since I became hard of hearing. I, I've picked that up a lot in books that I've read, which, um. If there's, if there's a disabled character that really sings to me, it's because they're either like, they're troubled or they're, they're, um, just drawn in a really realistic way that I find really beautiful. Um, like the book that really got me to thinking about, I. Uh, writing my own book about hearing loss was, um, you're Welcome, universe by Whitney Garner, which is a, an American book. But, uh, it's about a girl who is deaf and, um, she's a graffiti artist and she's, I, I've gotta say like, not a nice person. She's a really difficult person and I love that. I loved that she had so much, you know, depth to her and darkness as well as light. And it, um, it kind of made me revise. My main character in Thunderhead a lot because Thunderhead has a lot of lessons to learn about being, being a nice person

Tina Strachan:

Mm-hmm.

Sophie Beer:

and making friends.

Tina Strachan:

Oh, we have to learn these skills sometimes, right?

Sophie Beer:

exactly. Yeah,

Tina Strachan:

Oh, okay. So, yeah. so so the a a right way of doing it and doing it respectfully is. They're a character'cause they're a person and they have a disability or something else, like, but it's,

Sophie Beer:

Yeah. 100%. Yeah. It's not them.

Tina Strachan:

thing. Yeah.

Sophie Beer:

Disability isn't to define you. It's a facet of you and it just makes you live in a more creative and different way than other people. It doesn't mean that you are a lesser person or just there for inspiration. It's, it's just part of you.'cause you're a fully formed human, you know, regardless. So,

Tina Strachan:

Yep. Yep. And so, as. So as someone, uh, or an author who doesn't have a disability, who doesn't come from a com, you know, tra um, diverse background, um, you know, how, what are some steps that they could take? still try and be inclusive and include characters with meaning and you know, how do they do that well? And sort of check it if that, if that makes sense. Like how can I write a character, say that's hard of hearing when I'm not hard of hearing myself? What steps could I take to make sure that I'm doing the everything right and.

Sophie Beer:

Um, yeah, I think, uh, the number one thing I would say would be like, uh. Incidental inclus inclusivity. So just having a character that's hard of hearing, even if then, even if they're just a secondary character, a peripheral character, something like that, include it and don't make it a big deal. Um, so I I, I absolutely love it when I'm reading a book and it'll just be like, oh, this character is, you know, has this dis disability. It doesn't define them, it's just, you know, it's, it's a facet of their, their personality or their, um, who they are. But it's, you know, it doesn't define them. Like I, I, I really love that, um, because it just makes it more. Wide, wildly, widely acceptable. That, or not acceptable, and it makes it, uh, you know, uh, more common. Seeing, seeing yourself in, in print is just one of the most beautiful things in the world. And, and having more of that can never be a bad thing. But I think like also doing that in a well-researched way. Um, like if you're not confident in your ability to write a disabled character, and you, you can have them as a secondary character, but I guess. Be mindful also of not just including someone just, you know, like for brownie points being like, oh yeah, here's this, here's this character. Yeah, exactly.

Tina Strachan:

diverse

Sophie Beer:

yeah, yeah, exactly. Just, um, do some research. Try to, um, read up on that disability that your character might have. Um, talk to someone with that disability because, you know, uh, disabled people aren't like. Horrified. When someone wants to talk to'em about their disability, they'll be probably be more than happy to, to talk about it because, you know, it's, it's them and it's, it, it, um, it's a part of their life and they would, they would like to share their life with people. So, uh, yeah, that's, that's always a, um, a thing to do is, yeah, just, just chat to someone with it. Or like informing yourself about, um, the disability that your character might have. Uh. Um, I chatted to a lot of people who had the, um, genetic illness that Thunderhead does in my book'cause I don't have it myself. So I wanted to be really informed about it. So I, I read a book of personal essays of people who had the, had the, um. The diagnosis. I talked to a lot of them in forums and things like that. Um, I met one, one guy who, I dunno if I need to, like, should say his name. And so, because I actually used it in the book and then my editor was like, maybe you should take it out because he might not want that. Like, want everyone knowing

Tina Strachan:

Or maybe he would.

Sophie Beer:

he would. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um. And, uh, yeah, and well then there was also my, my own, um, experience having a genetic illness as well, but like, you know, not the same one, but yeah, uh, similar. And, uh, so just drawing on all that mishmash of, of research and my own experience, and that was how I, um, how I wrote the character of Thunderhead. Uh, but yeah, I think just being informed and, and being willing to chat to disabled people and hear their points of view and, and, um. I guess leaving, leaving space for disabled to be able to write their own points of view too. Uh,'cause you know, there, uh, there is a lot of talk about whether non-disabled writers should write disabled characters in like a main point of view.'cause is that like disabled? Uh, writers is that their, their purview and that should be their right to express their own stories.'cause, um, like the book, uh, wonder by RJ Palacio, which Thunderhead has been compared to a lot, which I didn't actually think of until it was published. Yeah, yeah. So, um, I know, yeah, it's very nice. It's a nice book. Uh, so the, the author RJ Palacio doesn't have troche colon syndrome, which is what the main character in, um, wonder has. But then, I mean, that ended up. Being like such a beautiful book and inspiring so many people and, you know, creating a whole, uh, movement of, of kindness and, and acceptance and inclusivity. So, yeah, I, I guess it's just treating your subject as a full person and, and just being mindful and sensitive, because I think that's exactly what RJ Palacio did with Wonder and why it became such a bestseller was that. You know, orgi, the main character is a fully rounded person with his own dreams and desires and and insecurities, and it's just really beautiful to see.

Tina Strachan:

And you can, um, I like how you said forums'cause I have come across. Forums. Yeah. Before with that sort of thing. So that's for anyone that's listening, um, you can, and you're interested and you're looking up, you know, for trying to find some information on particular, you know, disabilities or even diversity, people with different kinds of backgrounds. There are quite a lot of forums out there that you can jump on and lots of people who are wanting to help and make sure that you're, you know, you're getting the right information. Um, and you can also hire sensitivity readers.

Sophie Beer:

Sensitivity readers. Yes. I was gonna say that. I forgot. Yeah, thank you. Sensitivity readers as well. That's a, a really good one. Um, uh, which is, you know, so you pay someone a, an amount of money to read the book and give feedback to how you handle a particular, um. Minority or a particular disability or something like that in the book. And it, it's just a really good way to kind of screen it pre-submission or pre uh, publication to make sure that you, uh, not like you've handled everything sensitively and, and in, in a, in a way that's not gonna completely offend people. Be, be really horrible. Um. I actually had my, my editor for Thunderhead, uh, the amazing Nicola ly, she, uh, they, um, actually pulled me up a few times in the book and were like, you probably shouldn't use this word here. Uh, which is, it's not, you know, it has like different connotations and, and stuff like that, which I hadn't considered, but they, they sort of, kind of, um. Pulled me up on that, which was really nice. Uh, and there was a particular instance towards the end of the book in which, um, Thunderhead gets called a freak. And I didn't actually know it, but that's a derogatory term for someone with a disability is, well, I mean, everyone, everyone knows that, knows that, but. You know, um, being able to read that sensitively from a different point of view, like you, I, as even as a hard appearing person, I would never would've considered being really offended by that. But Nicola was like, no, we, we can't let this name, let, let Thunderhead be called this name. And then nobody kind of react to it or nobody say, Hey, that's not on. Um, which I thought was a really brilliant and astute thing to say. Nicola was amazing.

Tina Strachan:

Publishers do know, don't they? And they, because I think they're very heightened to it, aren't they? I've had things as well picked up and just. Yeah, when I, when they've pointed it out to me, I'm like, oh my gosh, that was actually not anywhere near what I was thinking or meaning to do. Thank goodness that you picked that up. And they, they're just, I think they're very heightened to it, aren't they? With, um, they're just, you know, making sure that, you know, everything's inclusive and I'm sure they've, you know. Learn from mistakes in the past or Other people's mistakes. because when people, when someone gets it wrong, everyone knows about it. It's quite big, isn't it? So they just

Sophie Beer:

Which is exactly what, um, sensitivity readers do. Um, yeah. So, yeah, so it's a really nice way if, if you are writing a difficult character, um, who has a point of view that you, um, haven't lived yourself, you, you don't have experiential. Um, like, you know, experience with, you can just, yeah. Hire someone with experience in that background and get their, get their say on your manuscript, which is yeah. Really, really, really amazing.

Tina Strachan:

Yeah. Yeah. Because we were, you know, but one person writing this book, unless you're co-authoring, I suppose, but you know, the real world includes all these. It is so diverse. You know, there's so many different nationalities and cultures and abilities that, uh, that make up our world. So you have to write them. I, I like,'cause I, and I'm, and I'm sort of saying I'm, I'm a bit not, I'm just cautious of when I do that because I need to include, um, all those characters in my book. But I'm, but then I'm also equally as cautious of writing the wrong thing. I don't want to do the wrong thing, but they must be included. And I, is it. Yeah, I guess it's just treading lightly. I, I had, um, sensitivity readers even for, um, the Wilder Zoo series because two of the main characters are, um, you know, one has an Indian background and, and um, one has a Japanese background and, you know, I sort of asked friends, um, and people who had that background and also had a sensitivity reader as well.'cause I was so, like, I just wanted to. Just check off on a few different, and, and all of it was so fine. Like it's very, you know, it was very lightly, you know, added, but it, um, yeah, it was, it's, it's just I think nice and a little bit of peace of mind. And they also gave me some really good suggestions too, to make it a bit more authentic, which I didn't really think about and also pointed out a couple of things that, um, weren't particularly offensive but just, you know, oh no, we probably would do it this way or say it this way. And,

Sophie Beer:

Yeah.

Tina Strachan:

that was nice'cause you wanna make sure you're doing the right thing, but. Um,

Sophie Beer:

Yeah, that's what's great about sensitivity. Yeah. It's um. Sort of like hacking into someone's brain and just

Tina Strachan:

Yes.

Sophie Beer:

taking their experience and, and, and the knowledge and yeah, it's really beautiful.

Tina Strachan:

Yep. And you can get them for everything, can't you? Just about, um, there's some companies that you can go through that just Yeah. Every nationality, every culture, every background, every, um, yeah. Uh, even, you know, people that are experiencing have experienced trauma in the past. You can, you can. Higher sensitivity readers to even discuss anything along those lines as well. So yeah, even just ask questions. They don't even have to read the book. You can just ask them questions even so, so

Sophie Beer:

Yeah, I think, um, also like people might be afraid of writing the wrong thing or saying the wrong thing in a book. Um, but in my mind, as someone. Who, like, I, I don't particularly like, oh, I do. I mean, oh, such a, such a weird subject to talk about because like, I am hard of hearing, but I don't identify as disabled. Um, but it, in certain circumstances I could be, I have that identity. Um, so, you know, it's, it's um, it, it's something that is really close to my heart though. Um, but also I would much rather someone try and fail. Or try and get feedback, then someone exclude a disabled character. Um, I think the more disabled characters are put into books and the more it's normalized and the more it's accepted and the more that disabled people are seen as, as, you know, 3D humans, it's, well, that's what we are, that's the better it is, and the more richer the world will be for it.

Tina Strachan:

That's perfect. That's a perfect ending to our interview actually, Sophie. I think that's a great, that's a great point to end on. Um, thank you for sharing all that information.

Sophie Beer:

No worries.

Tina Strachan:

It's a really important con conversation to have. But before we go, do you have one top tip for, um, our listeners? You know, we have lots of aspiring, um, writers that are listening, but also, um, you know, lots of established writers as well.'cause. You know, um, all our stories that we share on here and all the people we interview just have just wealth of knowledge that have, is wealth a word? Wealth of knowledge?

Sophie Beer:

We'll say it is now

Tina Strachan:

Did I just make, did I just make something up? Um, they're a wealth of knowledge and, um, have so much important information to share, but so do you have, you know, a golden tip for everybody to, who are trying to be published and are, or are trying to, um, you know, about in including diverse characters in their books?

Sophie Beer:

I guess, um, yeah, in including inclusion and, and, um, I. Trying, even if you don't think it's gonna be perfect is, is my biggest tip. Um, because if you don't try, then you know that that character won't, won't be there for people to fall in love with and, and to see themselves in and to be appreciated. So yeah, it's always worth trying trying.

Tina Strachan:

I love that. Thank you, Sophie. Thanks so much for coming on the book Deal podcast. It was so lovely to talk to you. Thank you for listening to the book Deal podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the pod so you can receive updates as soon as our new apps drop and to keep up to date with what the pod is doing. You can also find us on Instagram.