The Book Deal
Motivation and inspiration for emerging writers, helping them pave their own pathway to publishing success.
The Book Deal
Irma Gold on managing constant crises of confidence, finding the spark in your writing and how to trick yourself into writing a novel.
In this episode of the Book Deal podcast, Madeleine chats with award-winning writer, editor, and podcaster Irma Gold. Recently launching to great acclaim her second novel, Shift, out now with MidnightSun. Irma delves into her inspirations, including her deep connection to Soweto, South Africa, and her journey from writing short fiction to publishing novels. The episode also explores her editing career, invaluable advice for emerging writers, and her experience with the creative process. Listen in to discover the intricacies of writing, the weight of imposter syndrome, and the vital importance of community and passion in an author's journey.
Our Debut in the Spotlight this week is Emily Paull with her debut novel, The Distance Between Dreams, out now with Fremantle Press.
00:00 Introduction to The Book Deal Podcast
00:43 Introducing Irma Gold
04:12 Imposter Syndrome
06:53 Irma's Early Writing Journey
12:13 From Short Stories to Editing
14:27 Accidental Children's Author
19:20 The Shift to Novel Writing
25:11 Introduction to the Novel
26:06 Family Connection to South Africa
27:06 Journey to Soweto
29:26 Writing About Soweto
33:38 Exploring the Expat Experience
41:24 Editing and Writing Advice
51:54 The Importance of Reading
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Madeleine Cleary | Author
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This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories, the authors behind your favorite books. No matter what sage of writing you are at, we've got you covered. I'm Tina Strachan. And I'm Madeleine Cleary. And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors one deal at a time.
Madeleine Cleary:The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on. And pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.. I had the joy of chatting with Irma Gold, Award-winning writer, editor, and podcaster just after the release of her brilliant second novel Shift, Out Now with Midnight Sun. Books in publishing recently said about Irma that she has cemented herself as a standout voice in Australian contemporary fiction Irma's. Writing accolades are numerous, so I will do my best to summarize them. Irma's Debut novel, the Breaking, Won the New South Wales Writers Center Varuna Fellowship, canberra Critic Circle Award and was shortlisted for the a ACT notable award for fiction. Irma's Short fiction was published in a collection called Two Steps Forward, and also has been widely published in journals and anthologies. Irma is also the author of Five Picture Books for Children most recently, where the Heart Is Irma has so much advice to give from all angles of the industry as an editor for over two decades and a co-host of one of my favorite podcasts, secrets from the Green Room. I hope you enjoy Irma Gold. Welcome to the book Deal podcast. Thank you for having me. It's so exciting to do a podcast crossover as well. It is. It's so exciting. I'm so thrilled to be here with a fellow podcaster. Yes. And I see we're actually wearing matching green colors as well. I know. What are the odds? We're just already in sync. That's all right. So I'm so excited. We are here to talk about your latest novel shift, which, um, we were just talking about before we hit record is such a beautiful novel. Um, I. Went straight through it, but I really wanna read it again so I can. Go sentence by sentence because it's so beautifully crafted. So congratulations on, thank you so much. Before we do though, I actually wanted to reflect, I, I don't think you know this little anecdote. Um, I, so last year you were at the Sorento Writers Festival. Um, I was visiting as a, uh, not, not as a writer or a speaker, but as an attendee. And I actually saw you from across room. We hadn't met yet. I saw you from across the room in the Conti and you were having lunch, I think, with some writers. And I recognize you because I'm a big fan of your podcast. And I was like, go Madeleine. Go introduce yourself to Irma say hello. Tell her how much you love the podcast. I. But I didn't, well,
Irma Gold:I was too afraid. Oh, it's, it's like a such a familiar story. I remember being like that. And sometimes I still am not so much anymore, but especially before you've been published, I think you feel like, oh, why would that person want to talk to me? I have to say, I feel like it's a very odd thing when people say, say that to me, and they tell me these stories about how they were too scared to come and talk to me. And I think it's just, I'm like, but why? I'm just me. But I remember feeling that way myself and. So, I mean, I've said on our podcast quite a lot. Really encouraging people to come up and say hello, because actually it's so great. Like it's the best. And we're all just writers together, you know? That's great. We all are interested in the same things. We all wanna chat about the same things. And I think there's very few writers who would sort of snub somebody. I mean, they, you know, there are writers like that and there are stories like that, but I'm not one of them. So everyone should come and
Madeleine Cleary:say hello. That's right. All right. If you see Irma out and about. Go say hello to her. Absolutely. Please do. Do you think it's a bit of imposter syndrome before you're published where you feel like you're not part of that community and does, is that something that you've now got two novels out in the world and you've got a whole series of other books as well? Does this imposter syndrome ever go away?
Irma Gold:I don't think it does, but I think certain things change like that cha what you're talking about there, that does really change, I think because once you, it's like any social gathering, right? If you know a few people, it's not nearly so daunting and you've already kind of got a crew. So, but you know, I've been to writers festivals, you know, sometimes where I don't know anyone. And then that is then daunting until you see someone who you know. So I do think it shifts. There's definitely that period where you sort of feel like you're trying to break into that community. Uh, and unless you already know people in it, that can just feel really hard until you're actually published. But I think imposter syndrome just continues on. I mean, we were talking just before we started recording about how. You know, you have this worry before your book comes out. Will everyone hate it? You know, and everyone feels that still. It doesn't matter how many books you've published, you have this absolute dread that, oh my God, what if nobody likes it? And so for me, like you know, with Shift, when I got the first book, books and publishing review. Which was said the most amazing things, like more than I could have possibly hoped for. Like just such amazing things about the book and about me as a writer and the predominant emotion that I felt was relief. And I, and I just think that's always the way. So I don't think it ever, that self-doubt ever really goes away. And you know, on Secrets from the Green Room, I've spoken to so many people now, you know. People like Charlotte Wood and Christos Tsiolkas and you know, all these people who've had huge success and they all still have some element of that imposter syndrome. Self doubt. It's just, I think it's just part of being an artist actually. And you know, in Shift, Arlie, the main character is a photographer. I'm sure we'll get onto this, but. He has this too. And that's one of the things that I think is really common across the arts because it's such a vulnerable thing to put your workout into the world and have it judged essentially. So it's really vulnerable. There's, I think there's always gonna be self-doubt there.
Madeleine Cleary:Well, that is very reassuring'cause I did just say earlier that I was awake at 3:00 AM wondering if everyone, well, one, if anyone's going to read my book, two, if everyone's gonna hate it, or three, which I think is even worse if there'll be like a neutral response to it. 3, 3, 3
Irma Gold:and a half star. I'm sure that won't happen. I mean, you've got such a fa a fascinating premise for the book. I'm very excited to read it, so I am sure that's not the case.
Madeleine Cleary:Alright, now I wanna talk. So let's go back to the beginning because I'm really curious to know what was the first thing that you ever published, Irma? I
Irma Gold:think it was a short story and I had a really. Like unusual set of circumstances that probably set me up badly for thinking this is what writing and publishing was like, because it was a competition and I won first prize and then, you know, the, the local newspaper came and took my photo and, and like took the worst photo you could ever, I mean, I don't know why they took it from the ground looking up and I was young and they gave me a double chin. I mean, come on. Um, but yeah. And there was prize money and, you know, it was all the things. Was that for like a short story? Yeah, it was a short, and it was a really short story. Like, I can't remember how many words, but I know it was only one page. Wow. And that you got a photo your picture taken? Yes. It, well, it was part of reconciliation week. Oh, okay. Yeah. So it, it was just like this lovely, lovely thing. And I think I even got some like medallion type thing or something. I can't, I can't remember now. It's so long ago.
Madeleine Cleary:Was that the first thing you'd ever written, or have you always wanted to be a writer?
Irma Gold:So I, my mom taught me to read before I started school, and I just always wrote, I was always making books, but I didn't actually know you could be a writer. I know that sounds kind of dumb, but I never Irmagined it. You know, writers were these kind of hallowed beings. I never conceived of being a writer, even though I was making my own books from I, I mean, as early as I can remember, and I think there are like a few things that happened along the way that. All kind of fed into each other. I still really distinctly remember when I was 16 and I'd just moved schools and I'd made friends with this girl called Simone, who is still one of my dearest friends. And shortly after I started at the school, her mum died. And I remember sitting there talking to her about it and I'd never had anybody close to me die. And. She was talking about how angry she was and how, you know, people were just saying these platitudes, the adults around her, and I remember. Just feeling really kind of useless about how I could actually support her and help her. And we were both big readers and we were, you know, doing lots of writing. And so I went away and I wrote this short story from the perspective of a, a girl our age, but who has her grandmother die. And I put all of the kind of feelings that I was observing in my friend into this young girl's character. And when I gave it to her, she said, so vehemently. That is exactly how I feel and no one understands that is exactly how I feel. And I mean, it was such a, a great thing for me to be able to do for her. But I remember it was the first moment where I went, oh. I have actually been able to put myself into the shoes of someone else's lived experience, and it's not something I've experienced, but I've been able to make that feel true on the page. And that was, I look back on that now and I think that was really pivotal. I still didn't know I could be a writer at that point, but that was like really pivotal in me going, oh, this is actually something I can do. And but to go full circle, just so it's not, not as great as it it sounds because then years later, so I went after school, I didn't know what to do. I mean, it seems so obvious now that I would be a writer and an editor, but I had no idea. I. And so I went off to the UK and I was working terrible jobs and traveling and partying, and I stopped writing for the first time in my whole life. And it was that moment of stopping writing when I realized, oh, this is actually something I have to do. And that was when I decided I. I dunno if I'd quite decided I was going to be a writer. I think I probably had, but I decided I was gonna come back to Australia and study creative writing. And in my first shoot of creative writing, we had to write a piece and I was just so like, oh my God, what can I write? It's gotta be good. I kept writing stuff and I couldn't come up with anything I was happy with. And in the end I was like, you know what? I'm going to use that story that I wrote when I was 16. Now, at the time, that story got an a plus. It was selected to go in the school. You know, we had a magazine ended the, at the end of the year, featured the best works. It went in there. So, you know, it was generally regarded as an exceptional piece of writing. Well, I gave that into my first shoot. I had, uh, the brilliant Susan Hampton. This was in Canberra, and she tore it to shreds, and it was the best thing that could have happened to me because I was like, right, if I actually wanna be a writer, I'm gonna have to step my game up. That that story was a 16-year-old story. It was not good enough. So it was like, it was an amazing thing. It was really, honestly, the best thing that could have happened to me.
Madeleine Cleary:Mm. Don't rest on your laurels as a writer. Don't draw from your 16 yourself. I mean, draw from that, that, that, that nostalgia, those themes perhaps. But you can keep persisting. So what do you think? So, so, so you're studying creative writing. You, you sort of have this, now you've conceived an idea of being a writer and being a writer is something, where do you go from there? So you're writing of short fiction and you've published, um, in a, in a newspaper. You've won this competition. What, what next?
Irma Gold:Well, the first thing was when I decided to do something, I throw my, my whole self in. And so I was like, I am only gonna be a writer, and if that means I'm gonna live in a Garrett and earn no money, so be it. And I had, in my second year, my tutor was Craig Cormick, who I did the first two seasons of The Secret from the Green Room podcast with, we are great friends, we've been friends since then. But he said. You know, you guys are gonna need to support yourself with something other than writing. And I was just like, oh no, I'm not. I'm just gonna, just gonna be a broke writer. That's what I'm gonna do. And, and then after a little bit I was like. You know what?
Madeleine Cleary:I think I might actually have to live. So after eating probably two minute noodles every night. The last two months.
Irma Gold:Exactly. So then I volunteered on an arts magazine, uh, in Canberra, which was called Muse Magazine. It's, it's now defunct, but it was a magazine that had a long history and I started volunteering there. And. I thought, this is the only job I want. So this is how I realized I wanted to be an editor as well. It was the two kind of came in tandem for me. And, and, and so I, I thought when, when I finished uni, I thought that's the only job I want to do. And I thought the person doing that is never going to go somewhere else, so what am I gonna do? And then a month later I get a call saying that she was moving to another position and would I take the deputy editor's job? And then a year after that, the editor left and I interviewed for the job and I got the editor's job. So my writing, my editing kind of happened in tandem. And at that time I was starting to publish short stories and it kind of went on from there.
Madeleine Cleary:Hmm. So your debut collection of short stories, two steps forward, so that was published in 2011. Was that the first, um, uh, sort of stories collection that you'd published?
Irma Gold:Yes, it was. So I'd had a couple of kids books out before then, which kind of happened accidentally. How does publishing picture books happen accidentally, Irma? Well, well I was working as, uh, an editor for the National Library of Australia and they decided to set up what is now a hugely successful children's publishing program. And, uh, Susan Hall, who was then the publishing director, said to me. Would you like to write a couple of children's books based on the collections? And so I, and so I did What a great opportunity. Yeah. Yeah. And they were great fun to do. Uh, so that was, they were the first books I had published. But yeah, they were kind of accidental and I. For a while, some people thought that I was a children's author first, which I never was. I was always writing adult fiction from the start. And then with my short stories I submitted for, so that was published with a firm press as part of a series of five short fiction collections called Long Story Shorts. They did a call out for submissions. They got 450 submissions and I was, uh, shortlisted, but ultIrmately rejected. And when I got the rejection letter from Martin Hughes, he said to me, would you like feedback? And I was like, yeah, sure. Now this is a lesson to everyone take up the opportunity to get feedback because apparently a lot of people never responded to that Irmail. What really isn't that? What isn't that gold though? It's mind blowing to me. You know, if ever if your work is rejected and, and it had been shortlisted, so it had got close, that feedback may not. Tell you anything, but it also might, and definitely if someone's offering feedback, always take it. So anyway, I said, yes, please. And he went back to the two readers reports and they said really opposing things. And so he thought, well, to give em a feedback, I'm actually gonna go away and read this manuscript.
Madeleine Cleary:Wow. So
Irma Gold:I know, which is amazing for publisher to do that. So over his Christmas holiday, no less, he went away and read. Manuscript, which became two steps forward, and then he phoned me to offer me a contract. Oh my gosh, I just got shivers. So it was such an amazing thing to be, to be shortlisted, rejected, and then get a contract. So always, always say yes to feedback. What was it like when you got that phone call?
Madeleine Cleary:Pretty unexpected as well.
Irma Gold:Yeah, it was totally unexpected. It still, I think, is one of the best phone calls I've ever received. Aw. It was just, yeah, it was so exciting. And that was my first adult fiction book, so yeah, it was, it was amazing. And that was a beautiful series. They did such a great job with that series.
Madeleine Cleary:So, before we dive into talking about Shift, I just wanna ask about Sarah Ferguson and the Duchess of York. Can you tell me what, what she has had in your involvement in your career? Well, I don't know
Irma Gold:how this happened. I. But my book, where the Heart Is, which is the children's book, was read by her on this. I think it might have been during Covid that it started where she has this channel. I don't know if she has it anymore. I don't think she does. But she had a, an enormous following and she would read these children's books and she, you know, it had a whole little set. Like organized for her and the set for where the heart is, which is a story, and it's based on a true story about a penguin who. Every year leaves the man who rescued him from an oil spin to return 6,000 kilometers away. And then he comes all the way back again every year. It's sort of scientifically unheard of. And anyway, so I wrote this story and, but the set was hilarious. It was like all this fruit, it was very pH looking. It was really quite bizarre. And then when she gets on to read, like she's obviously not read the book before and it is. Hilarious. It is the worst reading of that book that has ever been done. But it got, but it was so great. Like, and also because, you know, I was talking before about being that kid on my bedroom floor, writing my stories. Well, I grew up in England and I was obsessed with the royal family, and I wrote a book about the marriage of Sarah Ferguson and the Prince who shall not be named. Um, so to have her reading. My book was extraordinarily like, I was just like my younger self would've been in a meltdown, like absolute meltdown. So it's just the best thing.'cause it was just hilarious and terrible and wonderful and like, just extraordinary. Like just, it's still so bizarre. Is it on YouTube still? It's still on YouTube. People can, yeah, people can Google it. It is, it's worth watching. Just for the humor. Just, I would say it's not really reflective of the writing. Read it yourself.'cause you'll read it better than Sarah Ferguson.
Madeleine Cleary:Oh my gosh. Amazing. Okay, well let's talk now about your, so you've moved from short fiction picture storybooks to novel writing. Um, and you said that you've always been writing for adults. Was a novel always in mind for you?
Irma Gold:I originally thought that I couldn't write a novel. Like it just seemed an insurmountable thing. How did you even do it? I mean, I remember being at uni studying creative writing, thinking, oh, I just, I dunno that I could ever do that. But I remember also having the same thought as an editor, like, how would I ever edit a novel? And now I just, I'm editing novels constantly. So I suppose over time I began to see that it might be something I could do. I do have a novel zero, which we'll never see the light of day that I worked on for seven years and just could not get it to work. There were just elements of it. I couldn't, there, there are elements in that. Book that are fantastic and there are other elements that are just so bad and I, it didn't hang together, but it was, you know, it was a training novel. And then I think with my next book, the Breaking I, I actually tricked myself into writing that novel because I thought that I was writing a short story. Which ended up being the first chapter. And when I took it to my writing group, they were like, well, we want to know what happens next. And so I thought, oh, maybe I'll write some, you know, um, some, oh, I can't think of the word now. Join short stories. What's the word? You know what I mean? Anyway. Yeah, I know what you mean. This. I'm sorry, but this is menopause. The simplest words go out of your brain. Uh, do not look forward to it. Also being on a, on publicity. No, just menopause. Anyway, so I went away and I wrote. Not linked. That's the word I was looking for. Yeah. See, not a hard word. I went away and I wrote another short story and I brought that to my writing group and they again said, we wanna know what happens next. And the wonderful John Clanchy, who is uh, my self-appointed mentor, uh, said to me, I think you might be writing a novel. And so by that point, I think I had about 20,000 words. So I'd kind of tricked myself into starting to write a novel and then it just happened. Really easily from there, actually the breaking, yeah. I don't know if I'll ever have a, a writing experience like that. It just kind of flowed out of me.
Madeleine Cleary:What a great way as well to sort of, you know, get people invested in you. Like they want to see the next part of the story, they wanna see the next chapter. I love that way of doing that and having that writing community around you can often be so important to keep. It's like, you know, when you sign up to go to a gym class, you, you and you go with a friend, your friend's gonna wait on you if you don't turn up, then. Your friend's gonna be on their own. So it's almost like doing things together.
Irma Gold:Yeah, I mean, I'm sure that if I hadn't have taken that work to that writing group, I would've just thought, oh yeah, I've written a short story. Great.
Madeleine Cleary:Exactly. Community. Very, very important. Very important. Okay. Let's talk about your second novel now. So Shift, which came out we, so on the 10th of March, so that's about a month. From recording. Um, and this is, the setting is just an incredible place. Soweto in Johannesburg in South Africa, um, a place that I knew absolutely nothing about and ashamedly, I think it's, um, an incredible setting for a novel. So can you Irma Gold give us the, the, your elevator pitch for shift?
Irma Gold:Oh my God, I, I'm so bad at doing an elevator pitch for this novel. Okay. I should be good at that. But every time I see someone describe the book in a review, I think, wow, you've nailed that in a way that I have. Not often the hardest thing, isn't it? As an author, I feel like it's so, I actually find it really, really hard, and I think it's partly because there is so many things going on in this. Book. And you've got the complexity of all of that in your head, don't you? And so it's just, I find distilling it into one sentence, I feel like I got it with the breaking, but with this book, I still don't have a good elevator pitch. But anyway. Has it
Madeleine Cleary:changed? Have you found it's changed as well, like your pitch? Uh, yeah. I'm just not doing very well at it, Matt. Okay. I'm, I'm sure it'll be good. I actually, um, I understand'cause I had to pitch the Butterfly Women for the first time last week, um, at. My own, like I was being interviewed for a podcast and I was like doing it like five minutes before the interview, like just still tweaking things and I'm like, oh, I just, it's hard to distill and I think often it's a third person getting a third person to do it for you. Yeah.
Irma Gold:It really is. I wish I could remember what the reviewers had said and then I could just quote that back. I should be more onto this. Um, the book is about Arlie, who is an Australian photographer. He is in his thirties and he's just kind of failing at life, you know, really. He's moderately successful, he's good at what he does, but you know, like many people in the arts, he's at that kind of mid-career stage where he is not kind of making it and he's. Not got much money. And he's also had a series of failed relationships. And when he has another breakup, he decides that he needs something, he needs to do something different. And he goes to South Africa where his mother was born and grew up because there's Myster mystery surrounding her growing up there. And he's intrigued by the place and by her silence around the place. And, uh, when he gets there, he ends up in Clip Town, which is a place where I've spent. A lot of time and meets all these wonderful people and things kind of unfold from there. This is the bit I find hard talking about without spoilers.
Madeleine Cleary:Yes. Well leave that. I think that's a great cliffhanger to end it on and um, yeah, it's such a interesting, fascinating book and that pitch was wonderful. Yammer, you. Oh, thank you. You did a great job. So don't beat yourself up. That was great. So much. Probably better than I can do.
Emily Paull:Hi, my name is Emily Paul and I am the author of the Historical novel, the Distance Between Dreams, which is out now from FrIrmantle Press. The novel is the story of Winston Keller, a young man from the working class who can't afford the luxury of a dream, and Sarah Willis, the daughter of an ambitious businessman who dreams of freeing herself from his expectations. The two meet at a party, 1 19, 19 39, and fall for each other hard, but a long held secret that links their two families and the growing world. Conflict of the Second World War pulls the two lovers apart. Will they be able to find their way back to one another? And if not, will they ever be able to move on? This book has a little something for everyone, including music, dancing, Shakespeare, Australian Rules, football, Hollywood movies, punch up, and a dashingly, handsome American submariner and brings to life the West Australian port town of Fremantle, which was the second largest active port during World War ii after Pearl Harbor. It's out now, just in time for Mother's Day or just for anyone who loves being transported back in time when they read.
Madeleine Cleary:Tell us about your own family connection to South Africa.
Irma Gold:Yeah, so my dad was born in Johannesburg in the year that apartheid officially began, and he's not South African, so his dad is French and his mom was English. And, um, but he grew up there and then they left when he was about 15 or so. So I was always fascinated with South Africa. And when I was about 14, I read a book called Biko, which is by the journalist Donald Woods, who uncovered the, uh, well, basically how Steve Biko, who was one of the freedom fighters, was murdered under the apartheid regime. And that book just totally fired me up. I, you know. I, I already had this fascination with South Africa, and from that point I just went and read everything I could get my hands on about the Freedom Fighters and, you know, then I went into fiction, you know, Doris Lessing, Andre Brink, and I was just reading everything I could and I. Soweto was the heart of that resistance movement, and I just always wanted to go there. And it's, it's kind of, it's not really the place most people would have on their bucket list. It's not a holiday, typical holiday. It's not a holiday destination. But, uh, I, I had wanted to go there my whole life and in fact, two of my brothers made it there 10 years before I got there. And both of them separately came on, you know, trips with me to Soweto and it just. It. You know, I'd been so obsessed with the place my whole life. And then to get there, I just became more obsessed with it. And on this one time that I was there in Soweto, my brother and I, my brother is an architect, so I drew on him for the character of Harris Arlie's dad and I, I chose to have him as an architect because actually, you know, when I was. When I was there with my brother Albert, you realize what a fascinating perspective that is on a place like Clip Town, uh, which is, you know, it's mostly Tin shacks. There are some brick buildings that were built during apartheid, but they're tiny and they're very basic. Uh, but on that, on that last day in Soweto, we didn't really know what to do and we went to, uh, clip Town to look at this memorial to the Freedom Charter. Where the Freedom Charter was signed. It's actually the 70th anniversary of the charter this year, which is kind of amazing timing for my, my book. And we met this guy called Bonani who said to us, you know, would you like me to show you around Clip Town? And we just ended up spending the whole day with him and his cousin Jacob. And it was just amazing. And I was like, oh my God, I wanna come back here. So the next time I went back with, uh, my other brother Roland, and we worked. Sky, which is the Soweto Clickdown youth and organization that basically looks after kids after school and gives them a place to come that's safe and you know, plays games with them. You know,'cause their parents might be in job at work, so they're actually unsupervised. You know, sometimes the kids as young as three are unsupervised and so it gives them a place to come. It gives them someone who can help them with their homework. And sometimes there's food, which is important. Yeah, I mean, I just was welcomed into, I like unbelievably welcomed into this community. Like it makes me quite emotional talking about it. And Bob Nameng, who's the founder of Sky, just, you know, he said to me when I was there, Immer, you have to write about Soweto. And I was already thinking about it, so I was like, okay, Bob's given me the green light. Uh, but you know, his support, just like, you know, we were talking before about the reviews. And the reviews are amazing. And you know, like when you get, uh, you know, I've just got a couple of five star reviews and like, it's just unbelievably amazing. But to me, Bob's support means more than anything. And also Niq Mhlongo, who's, you know, an international author, but a sweat, an author who's published like 10 books and. You know, I asked him to come on my podcast, which he agreed to, which blew me away. And then I asked him if he might consider reading my manuscript, which he did. And I know like endorsements in the industry are often just like, oh yeah, they're friends with that person. But Niq had no reason to endorse my book at all. And so I. For him to do. That means more than anything, you know, with, with the fact that he's written these 10 novels set in Soweto. So I've gone, I've forgotten your question and I've gone off on a total 10.
Madeleine Cleary:No, no. Oh, I was just absorbed in your answer then. It's, I think it's a amazing, and it, it, did you, did you experience, I guess some trepidation, um, about writing a novel set in Soweto given where, you know, you are writing about a culture that's very different to your own in a country that's not your own. How do you approach. Making sure you, you get that story right?
Irma Gold:Yeah. I mean, it's something I thought about constantly during the writing of this book and you know, what the ethical implications were from my creative choices. Sometimes I actually found, thinking about it, almost paralyzing. There were points during the writing of the book where, where it actually stopped me from writing because. I'm a huge supporter of own voices writing, you know, stories by, um, marginalized peoples from their own experience. And I work as an editor with a lot of First Nations authors and illustrators. I've, I've kind of become a bit of a go-to editor for First Nations work and I love doing that, and it's really important to me to be a part of getting that diversity of work out to Australian readers. So, but I also do think that it's possible to Irmaginatively understand people with different lived experiences to your own. But obviously it has to be done really respectfully, really carefully. And you know, I very deliberately, I. Tell shift through the eyes of Arlie, who is an Australian, uh, and who is an outsider. So he's also able to reflect on, you know, the own, his own ethical dilIrmas that he's facing because he's creating this exhibition of work to really show what, so what he's, so, he's, he's a photographer of people and he, he. Gets people to sort of see inside people. So he's putting together this exhibition, and in doing that, he's also reflecting on, you know, his own privilege and his own role as, you know, an outsider in a community that he will never fully be, you know, a, a part of, in a sense. He will always be slightly a part so. I thought about that a lot. I also asked my dear friend Ama Kalani to read the manuscript and just make sure that I hadn't got anything wrong culturally and was really heartened that there were only a couple of very tiny things that she picked up. And also she was able to pick up where I got the Kasi language wrong. So Kasi is like the, and slang, so I, that was so helpful to me that she, um. Picked up all of you know, the things that I hadn't got quite right and sometimes gave me a different suggestion. But I will say for your listeners, if they're using sensitivity readers, this is something that I think is so important. Even though Ama Kalani was my friend, I made sure that I paid her appropriately for her work. And I would say, do not ask a sensitivity reader to read your manuscript unless you can pay them appropriately. I think that's really, really important. I.
Madeleine Cleary:Yep. And completely fair, I think absolutely. Talking about Arlie then, and he feels this sense of belonging to the community almost, even though he is an outsider, he feels almost more at home in clip down than he does in back in, um, in Melbourne. Um, talk a little bit about expat and that. Discomfort that sometimes though you feel, even though you do feel that sense of belonging sometimes to a community, you also are very aware of your own sense of privilege, which I think Arlie talks about in the book perhaps, and explores that. Um, do you, why you, you seem to be drawn, I suppose, to the expat experience. What, why do you think that is? What's so interesting about the expat life?
Irma Gold:Yeah, that's, that's an interesting question and it's also an interesting observation that Arlie feels more at home in Soweto than he does in Melbourne. You know, the book is also set partly in Brunswick. Uh, and he, and I think part of that is because it's such a welcoming community and like I've experienced that myself. There's this word tu, where you don't walk past somebody without acknowledging them and saying hello. So you walk down the street and it's just the most joyful thing. Everyone's high fiving you and like, you know, it's just like so gorgeous and, you know, people are so open and so welcoming and. One of the things that I love about the Swaran people is that they are like, they speak their mind. They're very open. They tell you exactly what they're thinking. I'm a very open person to my detriment sometimes, so we're on the same wavelength. Uh, but you know, Arlie, he is, he is aware of that sense of privilege and, you know. There's that discrepancy between, I think so for example, in Australia right now we're going through an economic crisis, as is the world. And a lot of people feel that they're struggling and a lot of people are struggling. But if we look at a place like Soweto, we are so fortunate. Like even as writers, you know, the average income of a writer is so low, but you know, like. You go to Soweto and people are maybe eating one meal a day and they're struggling to get one meal a day. In Clip Town where I've spent the most time, there's 80% unemployment. Mm. You know, there's no electricity unless you illegally patch into the um system. There's no sewage system. There's no school for the kids, so they have to walk, you know, every day. So. You know, Arlie, he doesn't have much money. And in fact he, you know, he's very aware though that he can call on his brother Griff. Yes. Who is a lawyer. Exactly. Who, and he, he doesn't want to call on him. He's his younger brother. And you know, Griff, I. Is sort of regarded by his father as the successful one. You know, he's got a great job and he's got this gorgeous fiance and he seems to also be even good at, you know, every hobby he tries. And so in comparison, Arlie feels like he's a bit of a failure in his fathIrma's eyes, but you know, Arlie has that option. Mm-hmm. Arlie can, you know, it might bruise his ego, but he can phone up. You know his brother and say, Hey, I need some money. Mm-hmm. And Gloria, who is the woman who he falls for, you know, points out in many ways Arlie's privilege. Mm-hmm. And I love Glory. She's one of my, oh, she's the best. She's one of my favorite characters.
Madeleine Cleary:She is a wonderful character. She was beautiful. I
Irma Gold:will say that she came from this. One thing that happened, so my brother and I, this one time were invited to go to the rehearsal of the local gospel choir, which is all like kind of young, you know, they're all sort of 18, 20, 25, and it was in the choir Masters Shack. So these are very small, like the whole house is smaller than. You know, most people's dining room, for example. And so all the furniture was shoved up against the wall, like the couch was up on one side and the whole choir was jammed in there. And so we were jammed in with them and it was the most powerful musical experience I've had in my whole life because we are there and you just got the music coursing through your body and it's just, it's incredible. And there was this one, there was this one young girl who was so gorgeous. And had it such a phenomenal voice. And I just remember coming away. She just made, I didn't talk to her'cause we just came in for the rehearsal and we went out before they all broke up. So some of the people I knew from other, you know, being around Clip Town, but I didn't know her and I didn't see her again. But she sparked the character of Glory.'cause I started thinking about, you know. What would it be like for somebody who's got this incredible voice but they're in a place like Clip Town, you know, what would that actually be like and this kind of desperation to find something better. And yeah, so she was, even though, I dunno who she was and I dunno anything about her, she was the, the spark for that character of glory.
Madeleine Cleary:Gloria I think represents to me this novel and how it's not trying to be simplistic in its message. Obviously Apartheid has left a terrible legacy. There's hardship, poverty in Clip Town from the outside. I think I remember Arlie's parents. I. Googling the crime stats in Soweto. So concerned that he's living there and not really comprehending the reason why, but when you dig under the surface, like you have done with your brothers, that there's so many amazing moments of joy and light and art and um, and, and that sense of hope, which I think is really interesting. So it's, it's, it's. A novel that, um, to me wasn't trying to preach a particular type of message. It was just trying to show that beautiful community. Like you said, people when you walk down the street would give you a high five and say hello and unlikely probably in Brunswick to do, to do that. No happening to be in Brunswick, that's for sure. But you know, you've got the passion of people who are. Falling out what those, those types of hardships. But then at the same time, you've got others like the choir master in your novel who, um, are championing those, those messages of hope for, for a better future.
Irma Gold:Yeah, and I think, I mean, I think the novel asks the reader to consider a series of questions, but there's no answers because That's right. It's such a complex situation there and. You know, there, there are no answers. But the other thing is as well, you know, life is, life is complex. So at the Melbourne launch, Catherine Collette asked me, so she was interviewing me and, and she asked, you know, is there any point really, I can't remember what the exact question was, but basically is there any point to art in a world where we just have so much going on and, you know, all of these terrible things happening? But in the context of shift, I think it's actually a really pertinent question because without. How could you survive? Know, it in Soweto there is so much music and so much dance and you know, the arts are just even more vital and important in a place like that because without that, there's no joy and. I don't want people to have the idea that this novel is really hard going because there is so much joy in it. That's right. It it is a reflection of life. And also the other thing is sometimes I always want to talk about Soweto'cause I'm obsessed with it. But the thing is, the book is really about people and about relationships. And that's really what is at the heart of all of my writing, I think is, is those relationships between people. I.
Madeleine Cleary:And finding that connection. Yeah. Even if it's in a place very different to your own. Yeah,
Irma Gold:absolutely.
Madeleine Cleary:Yeah. Before we finish up, I wanna talk about your editing experience because I feel like you've got some great advice to give to emerging writers. You, um, have over two decades experience as, um, in-house and freelance editor. You also help out writers individually as well, preparing for submissions to, um, publishers. What do you think, is there anything that stands out with those manuscripts that you review that goes, oh yes, this is going to get published. Is there anything common, or, or, or even if not, what advice would you have to emerging writers when making their submissions? I.
Irma Gold:I don't think I can ever say this is going to get published because it is so hard to get published and so many amazing books do not get published, and so many terrible books do get published. So just because I have a manuscript that deserves to be published on my desk, it does not mean that it will be published. And so I'm always very. Cautious in in what I say, but there are definitely many books that deserve to be published. That is for sure. The one thing that they all have in common is a spark. It's like the X factor, and this is what any publisher is looking for. It's. Something that's indefinable, which is very unhelpful. But I think it comes from when the writer is writing about something that they're passionate about. So like your novel has come out of something that you were interested in about your own family and that's driven you wanting to find more and, and, you know. Write that book. And it's the same with me with Soweto. Like I was always fascinated with that place. And then there's so many other things in the book, you know, like I've always loved photography and, you know, playing on the different ways of seeing. And you know, the book is also about art making and, you know, some of the things we've been talking about, you know, self-doubt and the, the, the creative process and all of those things. So they're all things that I'm interested in exploring and. I think when you are passionate about something and you genuinely care about something, it carries with it a little spark.
Madeleine Cleary:Mm.
Irma Gold:And and that is the thing that makes a manuscript alive. I. So Charlotte Wood talks about writing where the heat is. I think that's such a good thing to remember because if you write where the heat is, you'll always have that spark. And then the technical things, you know, you can have an editor help you with those, but the spark has to be there. An editor can't insert a spark into your work if it's not there. It's just not there.
Madeleine Cleary:Yes. So great advice. And actually, I think it was an episode that, uh, on your podcast secret from the Green room, um, that Karen Viggers did with Cate Kennedy. And Kate said, you know, you should. Stands to your desk. I love that concept. Yeah. That, that feeling of joy in your writing find. Yes. And that's that again, that heat, that spark that. Well, that's the reason why we wanna write and explore. Absolutely. Your passion for Soweto has driven this beautiful novel. So I think, yeah, I think that's wonderful advice. And um, yeah, something that. Unless it comes from you, it's, it's not gonna come from anybody else.
Irma Gold:That's right. And you know, I've seen publishers speak where they say, you know, I didn't know that I was interested in a novel on X until it landed on my desk. Mm-hmm. Because it's. Because it's the way that it's written and if it comes from that, you know, spark of fascination and passion and interest, then it will be alive on the page. And that is, that is the crucial thing. Yeah. All the other stuff you can work with an editor to improve. I obviously also do love books that are beautifully written. And again, that is something, I mean, when you work with an editor, they ta as you would know, they take your work to the next level. Absolutely. So they can't, they, they can't make it something it's not, but they will help you get it to the next level. And so I love it when a manuscript arrives and I can see the promise in the writing and I can see the sparks there. And you know, it's a good thing for people to know when they're submitting that you can tell that from reading a paragraph. You know, I, I, I work for publishers as an editor and I also work for individual authors, and I'm very selective about the individual authors who I take on, uh, because I wanna enjoy the work and if I enjoy it, I'm also gonna be able to give, you know, really useful feedback. And I can tell immediately within that first paragraph if I want to edit a book or not.
Madeleine Cleary:Yeah. How do you approach the editing of your own work? Uh, well,
Irma Gold:everybody needs an editor, me included. I, I feel like you just, there's certain, I do think working as an editor, I'm thinking about structure and plot and pacing and characterization every day, working on people's books, and I know that has made me a better writer. I can't quantify it. I can't, you know, make direct links, but I know that. I'm thinking about those things every day. So it has definitely, I think, made me a better writer, but I still need an editor. And in fact, you know, I've worked with John, the brilliant John Clanchy, who should be better known than he is'cause he is, uh, just an unbelievable writer. Uh, I've worked with him on both the breaking and shift and he. Has helped me take both of those books absolutely. To the next level. He's also made really hard calls, like with Shift. There was in, and I'd forgotten this, this is how much the book has moved on. I opened up this old Irmail from him where I was like, oh, that's right. There was this whole other character in the book who was a major character who he said she has got to go. Mm-hmm. And I remember it was really hard at the time. I was like, ah, I know he is right, but it's just really hard to do. And I cut her out and as soon as I cut her out the book. Just took flight. Mm-hmm.
Madeleine Cleary:So he
Irma Gold:was absolutely right. And I, I mean, I always know, you know, when the editor tells you something That's right. Even when it's hard and you think, oh God, damnit, yeah. Yep. I knew
Madeleine Cleary:that,
Irma Gold:but I didn't wanna have to do it. Uh, and with the breaking, like the book is in three parts and originally, so the whole book is set in Thailand, but originally the third part, I brought the characters back to Australia and I feel like I did that against their will. You know, when you feel like characters actually want you to take them in a certain direction, and if you don't let them go where they wanna go, the book becomes a dead thing. It doesn't work. And so that last part, it just lost pacing. It lost energy, it lost its spark. Mm-hmm. And when I gave it to John, he said, you know what? How about you try just scrapping part three and keeping it in Thailand and as soon as I started writing that it had the same energy. It just flowed in a way, the part three, the original part three had not, and so. You know that that's what happens when you work with a good editor. So I need a good editor just like everybody else.
Madeleine Cleary:Okay, so you're not superhuman woman? No. Okay. That's good to know. That's good to, I can
Irma Gold:pick what's wrong with other people's manuscripts immediately, but then with my own, I'm like, oh my God, how did I not see that? Like that's the first thing I would've noticed in someone else's book, but like in my own. I don't necessarily see it. You're so, yeah. You're so, you're so deep in it.
Madeleine Cleary:So true. And it's almost feels like, I think you, as you go along, do you feel like you get better at spotting when it is not following the path that it should and you are able to retract? Or do you feel like it's something that you see with, with hindsight?
Irma Gold:I don't know. I feel like I'm not necessarily getting better at that. I mean, I didn't have any major wrong turns in shift, but I wrote it quite differently to the breaking, the breaking I wrote from start to end. And the shift I shift, I wrote, I. In different pieces. I shifted around as I was writing
Madeleine Cleary:it,
Irma Gold:so I, I don't, but I did. So I didn't have anything major like that with Shift, but I had different problIrma's I feel like every book is its own thing, and you have a different set of problems with every book, and I'm sure, maybe it's Charlotte Wood, I can't remember who said this, but it's like you learn how to write that book, so you go, oh, I know how to write that book now. It doesn't mean you know how to write the next one.
Madeleine Cleary:Okay. Well this is really reassuring to me as I'm trying struggling slash struggling to write book two. So I am just like, should I be able to do this? I've done one, but it's, it's,
Irma Gold:no, it's different every time and I'm writing my. Third novel, well, technically my fourth, if you count my novel Zero, but my third novel, and it's a different structure to the other two. I mean, they both had a different structure to each other, but this is even, even more vastly different. And yeah, I don't know how to, I don't know how to write that one either. I mean, I've got a complete first draft, so I feel like I've, you know, oh, good luck. Yeah. Yeah. I, I've kind of. Yeah, I've kind of, I've got it. But I feel like there's a point in every book where you're like, I have no idea what I'm doing. I don't know if this is gonna work. Like who knows? Constant crises of confidence.
Madeleine Cleary:But we're dancing to our desk, can't we? Yes.
Irma Gold:Oh, look, I love write. I love writing more than I can say. It is such a joy. I, I know some people say it's painful to write, but it's more painful not to write. But I just love it. And maybe that's because I'm not a full-time writer. I have, I have to write around my editing work, so I have very limited time right now because I'm in promo mode for shift. I have no time to write and I haven't for months. Uh, but you know, I, so I usually only have two hours, maybe twice a week or three times a week if I'm lucky. And so I just sit down, I'm like, bang, that's it. Capitalize on that
Madeleine Cleary:time.
Irma Gold:Yeah, absolutely. And it's so great and I've got my coffee and I'm firing and I love it. And it's just, even when I'm running scenes that are really, there's a. Seen in shift, which is so emotional, and I still feel emotional about it.
Madeleine Cleary:But
Irma Gold:even writing those scenes that are so emotional, there's still, uh, this bittersweet joy in the wr in the actual writing, in the ideas and the expression and the words. I love, I love words on a page. Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary:Well, I think we can all tell, Irma you've got such an amazing experience now. You've given us so many, so many top tips already, but um, as you know, we always finish on one. So Irma Gold, what is your number one top tip for emerging writers? I.
Irma Gold:Oh look, it's gonna be one that other people have said, but I, I, and I could have picked something else, but I am going to say read. And the reason I'm going to say that is because when I was convener of editing at the University of Canberra, I. I remember having this conversation with the convener of the creative writing degree that I've never forgotten, and that year he had 300 students and he said of those 300, only 20 of them were actually avid readers, and I found that so shocking. As someone who has grown up just. You know, living and breathing books and just reading constantly. I could not understand that. Yeah, it's, isn't it, you
Madeleine Cleary:think it's a given.
Irma Gold:Yeah. But you know, when I was talking before about, you know, the fact that I'm working on manuscripts all the time and I'm. Reading, and I'm thinking about structure and all of those things, but when you read books, you are absorbing all of those things too. Like you're learning without even knowing you are learning. So you are, you are absorbing things about structure and characterization and, and pacing and plot and like all of those things, they're just kind of subconsciously going in. So. I do think it is fundamentally the most important thing for writers to do, and I know everyone says it, but I also know that a lot of people want to be writers and they're not doing it. So that's why I'm saying it again.
Madeleine Cleary:So, okay. That's Natasha lester actually said the exact same thing. That was her top tip too.
Irma Gold:So Irma, so well,
Madeleine Cleary:she's a good one to be, to be
Irma Gold:in sync with. She's amazing.
Madeleine Cleary:That's right. So we, here we go. We've got Irma Gold, Natasha Lester, two wonderful authors telling everyone to read, and I would highly recommend everyone go read Shift. What an amazing segue. I'm holding it up, even though our listeners can't see it. I, yes. Go and grab your self a copy and it's a masterclass, so read it quickly like I did, and then go through and take your time. It's a beautifully crafted book. So Irma, thank you so much for joining us in the Book Deal podcast. Thank you.
Irma Gold:It has been an absolute joy. I've loved it. Thank you.
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