The Book Deal

Madeleine Cleary and The Butterfly Women: ancestry, inspiration and her publication journey

• Tina Strachan • Season 1 • Episode 31

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Tina Strachan interviews Madeleine Cleary about her debut novel, 'The Butterfly Women'. They explore Madeleine's ancestral inspiration, her meticulous research process, and the trials and triumphs of getting a book published. Madeleine shares insights on her writing journey, including the importance of finding joy in writing, the role of her supportive family, and her experience with pitching to publishers. The episode also highlights upcoming book launch events and discusses the significance of writing for oneself rather than with publication in mind.

 

00:00 Welcome to the Book Deal Podcast

00:43 Catching Up with Tina and Madeline

01:28 Tina's Exciting Book Launch Plans

04:30 Madeleine's Journey to Publication

10:55 The Butterfly Women: A Deep Dive

18:47 The Inspiration Behind The Butterfly Women

35:00 Researching Historical Fiction

38:20 Diving into Historical Research

39:24 The Writing Journey Begins

41:56 Finding the Heat in Writing

43:07 The Breakthrough Moment

47:39 The Road to Publication

47:56 A Life-Changing Accident

51:01 Pitching to Publishers

52:11 Securing a Book Deal

01:04:59 Preparing for the Book Launch

01:08:41 Final Thoughts and Top Tips

 

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Madeleine Cleary | Author

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Speaker:

This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories, the authors behind your favorite books. No matter what sage of writing you are at, we've got you covered. I'm Tina Strachan. And I'm Madeleine Cleary. And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors one deal at a time.

Speaker 2:

The book Deal Podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.

Madeleine:

We are back.

Tina:

Madeleine Cleary. We're back. This is so exciting. I feel like I haven't spoken to you for a while.

Madeleine:

Oh, it's been so long and I'm glad we're just hitting record as well'cause we've got like lots to talk about and lots to catch up on. And tell Tina what, what have you been up to? You've been up to lots of interesting things as always.

Tina:

Uh, yes. Not as interesting as you. And I'm very excited for today's episode because I get to interview you. So this has been my woo.

Madeleine:

I'm excited. I've been looking forward to this one and I, I can admit I've been looking forward to this one the most of all the

Tina:

oh yeah. It's a pretty cool podcast to be interviewed on.

Madeleine:

Thank you for having me, Tina.

Tina:

oh look, we're a bit biased, but yes. Okay, well let's do a quick catch up. Anyway, my stuff's not as exciting, actually. No, that's not true. It is pretty exciting as well. Um, yeah, I think since we caught up recently, I have had my final pages for book. Two in the Wilder Zoo series come, uh, come through and then have a look at that. So where it's all beautifully type set on, uh, you know, it's just in a PDF, but it's all type set and you have all the amazing illustrations, um, in there and just checking that everything looks great, just giving it one nice look over before it goes to print. Um, yeah.

Madeleine:

I can't believe you're already at this stage again with book two.

Tina:

Yes, it is very, very exciting. Um, so Neeka in the storm, that one is called,

Madeleine:

And when's that out,

Tina:

uh, so it'll be July 1st, so that's only a few months away. Um, quite soon actually. So now I'm in the process of prepping for book two launch, which is really exciting. So

Madeleine:

you did a big launch for Book one. Are you gonna do a big one for book two as well?

Tina:

um, I don't, I've got, I think I'm just planning on a few more things and I'm hoping to do some stuff in, uh, in Melbourne and Victoria around the

Madeleine:

I saw that, oh my gosh. You sent a message while I was at Sorento and you, I, I, I think I was at some very fancy party having drinks with Helen Garner. So like, I, as you do, I did see a message saying you were going to perhaps do a launch in Melbourne. And I did get very excited, but I course I forgot to respond'cause you know,

Tina:

because you were busy, but I prefaced all my messages with, ignore this one, ignore this one. Don't look at this until Sunday. I know you're busy. I'm just brain dumping here. Um,

Madeleine:

love that. I love that. I I, I'll, I'm glad you're keeping me in the loop because Yes, it's all interesting things.

Tina:

Oh, so that'll be super exciting. So yes, hopefully, yeah, just hopefully some nice fun, um, launches around the place and a few up here in Queensland

Madeleine:

Now, you know that coming to Melbourne in July for Queensland is, is a tricky thing to do.

Tina:

I need to buy a puffer jacket and

Madeleine:

You

Tina:

may, some, some thermals. Okay.

Madeleine:

You, you may need that. Um, it also takes a lot of encouragement for Melburnians to come out of their nest, but I will do it for you

Tina:

I hope so.

Madeleine:

out of hibernation.

Tina:

It'll be a fun thing to come outta hibernation for.

Madeleine:

Absolutely.

Tina:

Well, I promise to make it exciting and fun if I, if yeah, if it all comes together.

Madeleine:

we have a lot of Melburnian listeners I'm sure, according to the data we do. So I bet there'll be a lot of people keen

Tina:

Yeah. A lot of the Debut crew down there too, so I always, I always see everybody posting all the cool things that they're doing. Everyone's launches, you know, Sydney and, and Melbourne, and I don't get to go to them. I have massive fomo. So, um, yes, hopefully I get to see everyone when I'm down. Anyway,

Madeleine:

always welcome. You are welcome to move down here permanently as well. I have a

Tina:

cool lit community down there. Oh, I might take you up on that spare room for a writer's retreat maybe.

Madeleine:

You should. You should.

Tina:

But anyway, that's what's been keeping me busy. What about you, Madeleine? You literally have just got back yesterday from something super exciting, but also the last, what, four weeks or so, you've really been getting ready for the

Madeleine:

Yeah, I know. It's been wonderful. Um, and I think it's, it's, it's exciting. It's, I'm not really nervous about anything. I'm just really excited for it to come out. Like I'm really ready now. So I think as we're recording the book, so Butterfly Women will be out in two more days, but in very exciting times. I actually got to see a stack of the books at Sorento Writers Festival, which is where I was over the weekend. Um, and you know, that is pretty cool seeing your book up there next to like Natasha Lester's huge piles, stacks of nine books, and then next to Cape Greenville's books. Like, it's, it's pretty cool to

Tina:

I do believe though, um, and there is photo evidence that your big pile of books that you had there did actually disappear pretty much, pretty quickly. So

Madeleine:

It was pretty exciting. So yeah, we, I did a panel on Thursday, which was really fun. Um, and it, yeah, it was the first time speaking publicly, like out in, in the flesh as you would say, uh, about the book. And yeah, it was fantastic. And yeah, people obviously were interested in the story and it was really fun to see that book pile go down, which was so lovely. And then we just hung out. So I got my panel out of the way really early on the Thursday, and then, yeah, we just hung out for the weekend. And the highlight being, having a chat about football with Helen Garner, who's my absolute idol and she, I'll never, this will be a story that I will carry me through my life where she used me as a prop to demonstrate how she picks up her chooks in her backyard and. I, you know, I was just astounded. I had this, you know, literary legend standing behind me, embracing me like her, one of her chickens.

Tina:

Picking you up like a, oh man, that's gold. That is.

Madeleine:

It was amazing and we were so lucky, like we almost didn't go. It was a party that text publishing where had organized at an art gallery sounded very Swank Rayen Richardson, who's one of the debut authors from last year. He just invited all our 2025 debut crew along. So we were like, oh, are we gonna be, you know, standing out like a sore thumb because there's some pretty amazing authors who are attending. Um, but yeah, everyone was so lovely. And Helen, including Helen Garner, who spoke to us for about 20 minutes, she showed me on her phone photos of her with the bond. Um, Marcus Bonelli from Western Bulldogs Star, um, Bob Murphy, and yeah, we're just talking footy. Um, and you know, I was just, I was talking about this with Natasha Rai, our take over a host and Natasha was saying how these types of events, it's so lovely when you are a published author, although I'm not yet, but. Almost, um, that you could just get to have normal, banal kind of conversations with these amazing legends of the saint literary scene, um, where you sort of once saw them as gods, you realize, oh, these people are just humans too.

Tina:

Yeah. And they're still gods, but they, you realize Yes, they are. That's just a, a person. They're just a person that's done some amazing work.

Madeleine:

Exactly. So yeah. So that's been the highlight of my last four weeks, I reckon.

Tina:

That's incredible. So much. It's such an exciting time, Madeleine, for you.

Madeleine:

It is, it is. I'm so pumped. And, um, yeah, it's, it's just hard to believe Time just cut goes really quickly, doesn't it? Leading up to launch, you think it's taking a while and then suddenly time speeds up and

Tina:

Yeah, I agree.

Madeleine:

two days, two days it'll be up.

Tina:

days and I'm so, so, I'm so excited to interview you about the Butterfly Women and your journey to publication and how we got to this point. And I think this is a really, um, special time to do the interview where it's, it's imminent, like the, the book hasn't, it hasn't quite come out. It hasn't come out yet officially. You're only a couple of days ahead of it and, um, it's, yeah, it's a, it's a time that you'll never be in again. Like I'm certain there'll be times when you have more books coming out, so, you know, pre-publication is always gonna be something for you. But as a debut author, you only get one chance at that, right? You only, you only, you can only be a debut author once and this time, sort of pre. Publication of your first ever novel. It's a, um, it's a special interesting kind of feeling and, and,

Madeleine:

Hmm.

Tina:

time and anyway, I'm gonna get to asking you all about your feelings very soon.

Madeleine:

It's almost like, uh, the time before you get your first contract. I think that's a really special time. It's actually a really freeing time because you're writing purely for yourself. Well, at least that you'd hope you are. That's who you're writing.

Tina:

Mm

Madeleine:

That can kind of shift, I think once you've signed a contract, you then start thinking about perhaps other people and other audiences in mind, which can be quite dangerous. I think as a creative, they can guide some of your decisions.

Tina:

Yeah. Yeah. Maybe sometimes in a good way. Other times, maybe not so much, but I agree. It's almost like your first books before publication are like, um, a little, not naivety, but just innocence maybe in a way.

Madeleine:

Yeah. And that, that can be amazing

Tina:

Hmm. Yeah.

Madeleine:

are, you are just curious and you're just exploring, but then I think you have to have other things in mind. When you're thinking about your second book, you're like, oh, should I stick on theme? Should I embed myself as a, you know, a career in this particular thing? Or should I try something different? Or either, there's a lot more decisions I think, in than particularly if you start reading reviews that that can get into your head as well. Which don't do it. Don't do it.

Tina:

so hard, so hard not to do though, isn't it?

Madeleine:

it is. it is. Well, we're all seeking validation, aren't we?

Tina:

yeah, yeah, yeah. It's hard not to have a look, but, but anyway, Madeleine, I feel like I need to, um, get into my questions that I have prepared for you,

Madeleine:

I'm excited.

Tina:

for our, for our formal interview today, because I feel like we're gonna go massively over time because I have so much that I wanna talk to you about.

Madeleine:

All right, let's dive in then.

Tina:

Alright, well, Madeleine Cleary, congratulations on the very, very soon to be released. The Butterfly Women. Woo hoo. Published by a firm press. I'm so excited. I was so excited When I am holding your book at the moment,

Madeleine:

Oh, you've got a copy. It's really special to see you with the copy of the book, Tina.

Tina:

it was, it was felt really special to hold it. Like it's, it's apart from being beautiful, like it was just a really special feeling. I feel like I've come along on this journey with you really closely, as do all the listeners too, you know, so it's gonna be exciting when they're all holding your copy too. But, you know, it's funny, like when you read my book, um, and it had been quite a while since you'd read a middle grade book. Um, same for me. I hadn't read historical fiction in a really long time, really long time. And it's not something that I would often, um, gravitate to. And I think the reason being is because, um, maybe the historical fictions that I were reading were just not, just not the right ones for me. I think, you know, some of the ones I'd read are just, um, I. Maybe couldn't really connect with the characters or the settings. I just, um, maybe it was a little bit slow for me as well. I felt, and these are just the books that I read. Um, but, you know, no one told me that there could be historical fiction quite like the Butterfly Women, Madeleine, no one told me that I could read a historical fiction where the main characters included prostitutes and brothel owners searching for a killer in the notorious Red Light district of Melbourne in the 1860s. I did not know this. I am now thoroughly hooked and I want some more.

Madeleine:

oh, that means so much. Oh my God. I'm gonna cry. Oh.

Tina:

I think I sent you a message after like the first two chapters, something like, um, because I was really enjoying it, just saying these women are badass and I'm here for it.

Madeleine:

That makes me so happy. And yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Historical fiction. Sometimes it can tend towards that, that slower immersive, and that's for, I think readers who just wanna. Situate themselves into a particular era and just, it almost tears away your own world and you can really live and, you know, you're focusing on what you're touching and tasting and seeing. And I, I love that kind of historical fiction as well. And I do bring that, like, I hope that you feel really immersed in Melbourne 19th century. Like, I want you to feel that, that, but at the same time too, I'm a person that I love a good narrative that hooks you and that brings you along with a story as well. So it's not just about positioning yourself as a reader, but it's also about, uh, going along with the characters.

Tina:

Mm, well, it definitely had all of that. It had, you know, the strong characters and the strong narrative. And it's funny, one, one of the things I was going to say about it was that I definitely, the setting was so rich and vivid and real and, uh, I could absolutely, you know, at times feel like I could see it and smell it and feel it. Um, which at sometimes is a little bit uncomfortable

Madeleine:

Yes,

Tina:

in the back alleys of The red light, dis red light district. But no, it was incredible and it, it was very immersive and you could tell. So yeah, just rich, the characters were rich and real and enjoyable and it was an incredible journey. thank you. feel very honored. know what I love about it, apart from the beautiful, I mean, apart from the story, but the actual book and, um, the incredible cover. Incredible cover with this dark red bods and the beautiful butterflies. And even inside the cover you've got like end pages like they do in, you know, picture books, sometimes these gorgeous butterfly end pages. And I love the tagline on the front that says, danger lurks in this house of ill repute.

Madeleine:

So there is a story behind that. I actually didn't write the tagline, um, that, that came from my publisher and, uh. I, I was sitting in at, in the office at a firm press with my publisher, and she showed me the cover on her laptop and she's like, look what I managed to sneak onto the cover. And it's those words, repute. We just love that old language. Doesn't it just sound fabulous

Tina:

What it does well, I'm so glad that they snuck it on there. Um, because I mean, if that doesn't, if that doesn't get you in, I don't know what does. But you know, that's what publishers are good for, aren't they, with those taglines?

Madeleine:

They're, they're, and the cover designer, no, Kovi, she did an incredible job. It went through a series, so they, they actually had another cover designer working on it for a few months, and they just cooked together collectively. They couldn't come to a, to a cover that they wanted, and so they ended up. Going to Nada. And she, that was the first cover she delivered after reading the book and, and, um, delivering the brief. So, and as soon as they saw it, they were like, yep, that's, that's it. So, and I felt that way too when I saw it.

Tina:

Yeah. No, it's amazing. Um, but I also do love the quote from Ellie Parker on the back

Madeleine:

Yeah. So that, what is it? Oh, you have to, um,

Tina:

it says, rich and vivid. These characters will pick up their skirts and nestle into your heart. Ali, you delivered on that one.

Madeleine:

It's so clever. When I saw that, I was like, oh, brilliant, brilliant. I'm so glad it made it onto the cover. Like it's on the back, but it's on the

Tina:

Oh yeah. Absolutely. And again, it just, it's just a really great quote for that sums up the book, but, um, but enough of me talking about book, Madeleine, I ask all my guests this. You are not gonna get away with it. Can you give us your one-liner?

Madeleine:

Okay. One liner or a pitch,

Tina:

Have

Madeleine:

you can

Tina:

I'm gonna say

Madeleine:

do it in a one line.

Tina:

Okay. Go.

Madeleine:

Okay. So the Butterfly Women is a historical romp and a greedy murder mystery retelling, untold women's stories amidst a Jack the Ripper style murder in Melbourne 1860s.

Tina:

Yeah. Nice.

Madeleine:

That, yeah, I gotta perfect that a little bit I think.

Tina:

No, that was good. I like that. I think that sums it up really well. It makes it sound exciting

Madeleine:

Yeah, and Jack The Ripper kind of adds a little bit of, you know, intrigue'cause it is both that I think like it,

Tina:

I suppose,

Madeleine:

it's the historical retelling, but it's also got that it's a bit gritty and bit dark and I didn't quite realize how dark it was until people started coming back to me after reading it going. It's dark, Madeleine. Like there are, I mean, there's a lot of light and there's a lot of fun and there's a lot of joy and you know, you're, you're, you know, you're a, it's set in a high class brothel and there's, you know, there there's lots of like interesting, intriguing kind of things, but I think as well, yeah, there are a few dark moments in there. And that's what I wanted to show is both the, the light and the dark in that time, because I didn't wanna glamorize prostitution and make it like a light frothy tale about women, you know, earning money and buying lots of beautiful silk dresses and, and that, I mean, they did do that, but there was also this darker side as well. Hmm.

Tina:

No, I think it's perfect. Perfectly done. Um, but yeah. And yeah, maybe dark. I, I don't mind a bit of dark in my, in the books that I read though, so

Madeleine:

Yeah. I'm not a cozy crime person. I've realized, I think.

Tina:

Yeah. I mean, it says, you know, on your blur on the back it says lush, dark, and meticulously research.

Madeleine:

Trigger warning. So there is a warning.

Tina:

But it's lush as well as dark, so, you know, balances. Yeah.

Madeleine:

Credit Ruby Ashby for that description. Definitely not me.

Tina:

but Madeleine, um, you, this tail that you have, that you have written here hasn't completely come out of nowhere, has it? Like there was can, this is a very, very exciting, fun tale that I love. Can you give us, um, tell us about your inspiration for the book and where it all started? It's a great story.

Madeleine:

Absolutely. So it, it's all came about in about 2014, so it's over 10 years ago now. Um, and my dad, he, um, was connected with a woman on ancestry.com, a distant relative, and she wrote a little message to dad on this platform and said, oh, Phil, my dad's name, do you know that you are related to the infamous Irish Cleary family of early Melbourne? And dad said, no, but please do tell me. She provided a few pages of research that she'd done, which linked us to, um, direct descendants of a woman called Catherine Cleary. And she was my great, great, great grandmother. And she was also a brothel. Uh, she owned and lived in a brothel in that little one red light district in Melbourne. Um, so this of course, was really exciting. It's a secret that had been buried for so many years in our family. Um. And I think a lot of families, you know, have those types of secrets, those ancestors that they wanna forget. But now there's more interest in looking back and reflecting on your family and where you've come from. And so this really sparked my dad to dig further. And I think back in 2014, I was pretty young still. I was in my early twenties. And I remember, I remember dad telling me about it. I remember him sending me lots of articles. I remember asking lots of questions. And I did think at that time it would be fantastic to read a book about these women, um, in this particular era. And so I did a lot of Googling. I was like googling fiction books, um, just to try and see if there was anything.'cause fiction's always been something that I loved. And I couldn't see anything written about that time. And so I thought, well, you know, may, maybe I can write this. So, yeah, so.

Tina:

what a, yes. You would be the perfect person to write that. And so had you been writing then up until that point?

Madeleine:

So I've been working as a bookseller. Um, I was working as a bookseller then, and this was during uni. I was studying international relations. I've always been a massive reader, um, and I think most writers are, aren't they? Um, you know, reading, having weekly trips to the library where I max out my library card and I'd be spending all weekend in bed till 11:00 PM until mom dragged me out to have a shower. Um, I wouldn't eat anything until then. And um, and she'd just be like, come on. But she was, my mom was a massive encourager, I think of my reading when it came to writing. Yeah, I mean, I've got, I was writing stories from, you know, a young age. I still got them too. Um, mom kept them all in like a big box. So I've got these stories. There's one about like a dog, I think it's called something like fire rescue or something. And it's about a dog that rescues a cat from a burning house. And I've drawn the

Tina:

the original patrol.

Madeleine:

It is.

Tina:

Something.

Madeleine:

I, I reckon I was. And you know, I've even got like a title page on the inside of the book, so I reckon like I was a bit of a nerd and I did, did a blurb and everything. So, and mom got it all printed and bound office work. So I've got a few of these stories. So I was always writing as a kid and then I. Um, I, I think it, it was about 2016 and so it was a couple years after we've discovered about Catherine and, um, well actually no, in 2014, I, I went, we went overseas for a year and I thought, oh, my, my husband's really into writing and he kind of gave me that ex I think the confidence to be able to say, maybe I can give it a go. And so I started writing this really crappy young adult novel.'cause that's what I was reading. I was reading a lot of that. I mean, I'm a pretty wide reader, but at the time I was early twenties and it was awful. I wrote 30,000 words and I never picked it back up and I never wanna look at that again. Um, and then 2016, I, I got a job in Canberra, so we moved into state. So it was in my mid twenties. Um, and I was working, and you might feel this as well, I was doing my normal. Day job. And I was just like, and people, I was talking with some other public servants and it's totally fine to be a career public servant if you're happy with that. But they're like, oh, you know, you moved to Canberra 45 years later, this is gonna be alive. I moved to Canberra thinking I'd only be here for a year, and then look at me. And I just thought, oh my God, is this, is this all there is in life? Like, is this it? And I like my job. I have a great job. I'm really enjoy it. But it didn't tap into that creative side of me that I really liked. So, so, um, then I went to, sorry, I'm like going on a long tangent, but we went to a, um, a book talk in Sydney. It was with an author, us your author, Maria Snyder. She's a fantasy writer that I really liked. And, um, Kate Forsyth, great Australian writer is interviewing her. And I was talking with Kate after the event and Kate asked me. We were talking about books and reading and everything, and she's like, oh, do you write? And I was like, Hmm, do I write? I wish I could say yes to at that time. That would bring me a lot of joy. And so I said, oh, no, because I'm worried it would cut into my reading time. And she, she's sort of like, oh, well, you know, if you, you write if you wanna run it, like, it's about where you prioritize your time. So driving back from Sydney, I was like, okay, I'm gonna start writing from, from now. Every day I'm gonna write. And I did. I pretty much wrote every day until the Butterfly Women Draft was done in 2022. I wrote three novels before The Butterfly Women, a lot of people say that they signed up to a course, um, or went back to uni. For me, I spent four years writing every day. Doing my practice, doing my 10,000 hours before I even considered writing a book like The Butterfly Women. And those three novels, again, will stay in the draw. And at, at not one point did I ever consider, um, consider them for ready for publication. I knew that they were not, not publication ready at all. And so I just wrote them, put them down, wrote them, put them down. And I think that helped me work out how to structure a story and tell a story. And I feel like as well, like I didn't do any courses, but because I was such a big reader, I feel like I knew how to tell a story, um, how to structure a story, how, and so I felt like I had the elements, but I just needed the right story to tell, which was in, in the end, the butterfly women.

Tina:

Yeah, that's, that is an incredible journey and so many, so many, um, questions I have for you on all of that.

Madeleine:

I can see your writing.

Tina:

I always, I write and I doodle and it's what I do, and I try to maintain eye contact at the same time and scribble off to the side. It's my interview style. Um. Madeleine. So, yeah. So getting back to the, uh, like you said, all of that is your, is you, I guess, writing and learning how to write to get to that point with the, the butterfly women and, you know, you were saying about, you know, obviously your history, um, and researching about, uh, your ancestors

Madeleine:

mm.

Tina:

and your dad had a, he was really, he played a big role in this, the whole, you know, I mean, he, he was the one that came to you with all the information in the first place, and, and I can imagine, and these are his, you know, direct ancestors. I can imagine how proud he is of you and this book and the story being out there. How did he feel when he held the book for the first time? How did you feel when you could give it to him?

Madeleine:

yeah, it's, do you know, this is a really funny story and I'm sure my parents are listening to this. Um, I just got my author copies, I got the big box, and I sort of posted up on social media and dad messaged, and I think there's a moment you have when you open up your own copies and you're like, these are mine, and I'm just gonna hold them. And like, they're like, your little like babies and you're like, I'll protect these copies with my life. And dad messaged me and he goes, oh, um, when can I get a copy? Like, not like, oh, how, how do you feel like you got your copies? When can I get one? And I was like, dad, literally you'll be able to go to Sorento in like four days and you'll be able to get a copy. And I'm like, you are not getting one. You're not getting one. And then the next day my husband's like, that was really mean of you. And I'm like, yeah, so funny, funny. Like all the things you've got, it's like a book, pre-launch, brain of yours, you go a bit wild. Um, and so the next day I went and dropped in a copy to dad and I didn't tell him I was coming. I just rocked up. And of course he's gardening. And so I come up and like Dad, dad and I had a little bag and I said, I've got a gift for you. He's like, what's this? And I said, well it up. He's like, well, my hands are dirty. Said.

Tina:

Aw,

Madeleine:

And so he kind of like, I got it out for him and he like clasped it in his

Tina:

Aw.

Madeleine:

And then, yeah, that was really lovely. And so, um, mom's like, all right, we have to take family photos. And I felt like it was like family photos with a, a newborn. It was like my dad, me, and like, I'm cradling the book.

Tina:

Aw.

Madeleine:

But no, he is very, very proud and very excited for this. These like our stories to be, to be told.

Tina:

Yeah. Well it's, it's a significant moment, isn't it? Even if it wasn't something related to your ancestry. You know, having a book published is pretty incredible, but I know what you mean about the books. Um, and the, because you only get, you know, X amount of coffees, it's not a lot for yourself. And I know with mine I've ended up, you know, like I've, um, used some like as giveaways or I've, um, you know, I've definitely given them out to some people. And then you end up with, you know, I wanna keep one for myself as well. Don't want that

Madeleine:

have to keep one from the box, I think.'cause I think that's pretty

Tina:

Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah. So they do disappear

Madeleine:

and buy your own. you can buy your own. of course, from back the publisher. But there's

Tina:

yes, that's right.

Madeleine:

the first box.

Tina:

I think so. I think so. So yes it is. I can see where your initial thoughts were there, Madeleine. I have to say, even with my mom, I was kinda like, I'm gonna give you one and you're just gonna put it on your shell. That's gonna sit there.

Madeleine:

That's right. I'm like, you can,

Tina:

have a look whenever you want

Madeleine:

that's right. You can buy it. You can buy it. Dad, go on. Buy a few copies.

Tina:

dog. Off you go. Yeah, no. Um, oh, that, that is pretty funny. Funny. Oh, so Madeleine, um, the Butterfly Women, you, it's multiple points of view written from multiple points of view, uh, which I loved because a great way to get to know the characters. And they're, they also, you know, different, they've got various backgrounds and they've got different goals and personal struggles and, but the one thing I think that they all had in common was that they were incredibly strong and

Madeleine:

Mm

Tina:

which I think, uh, has a lot of view in each one of them, doesn't it?

Madeleine:

that's very kind.

Tina:

Uh, which.

Madeleine:

be an Irish sex worker, I reckon,

Tina:

You're related to them. So there definitely is a lot of you actually, or of them in you really isn't there. So, um, but which one do you think is the most like you and, and why?

Madeleine:

Mm, that's a good question, Tina. Well, pat and I were actually talking about this too, and it's an interesting one. Um. I think I'm probably a mixture of Joanna Callahan, who's, uh, the Irish, um, sex worker and Harriet Gardner, who's, um, she, she's, she's a bit more of that sort of upper class. She's just arrived to the continent. Her brother is the police magistrate, so she has a certain sort of level in society. The expectation is that she'll marry and be respectable and be a good colonial wife. Um, but she's wants to do something a bit different and she follows her cur. She's very curious and I think I relate to that because, um, you know, I have a lot of, um. I suppose for me, I've actually never wanted children. And that's a bit of a personal thing to say, but I love kids. Like I have wonderful nieces, but following that path of getting married and having children has never been something that I've desired. So I've always tried to do something different. I've always been curious about doing different things. So I think that part of Harriet aligns to me. And then she's a, she is though a little bit, um, she's a, she's I suppose, has a lot of anxiety and is afraid, and I would say that's probably not as much me. I'm happy to put myself out there and talk to anyone. And I think that's Joanna. So Joanna is a, someone who's a bit more gregarious. She's, you know, she's funny. I wouldn't say I'm a funny person, but she's certainly. Funny and kind of enigmatic. And I mean, she's, she has those qualities that I would really like to be that person that can just walk into a room and has that presence about her, even though she comes from background where she's, you know, she's a illiterate Irish migrant, um, who's arrived penniless without family. She's found it difficult to hold down jobs. And then she's given an opportunity, so she's much more alike to my ancestors, um, who were, who did arrive in Australia as migrants from Limerick in sort of 1830s, and then eventually found their way to Melbourne. Um, so she's, yeah, very much more alike. But the difference between Joanna and my family is that Joanna had this opportunity to work at this high class brothel, whereas my family, it appears, were much more on the streets, uh, and they had to really struggle to survive.

Sally Gould:

Hi, my name's Sally Gould and I'm the author of The Memoir Frog, the Secret Diary of a Paramedic, with Simon and Schuster. I work as an intensive care paramedic and have been in this dream job of mine for 14 years now. When I first started as a naive student ride along, I journaled all of my experiences as I was both completely overwhelmed and in awe, watching the paramedics in action. It was from these journals that Frog grew. In it. I take readers on the wild ride as I go from that nervous spectator to being in the treat seat myself. As a paramedic, I want to open the doors on what life as a paramedic is really like. I share the hilarious, the gory, the frustrating, and the magical jobs. But beyond that, the book is about how this career inevitably shapes identity and builds resilience. I can't wait for people to connect with my story. Frog is out now and available as a book. Ebook and an audiobook that I've narrated myself. Thanks so much for your support so far, and thanks Madeline and Tina for inviting me to pop onto the podcast.

Tina:

How did you learn about like, like I said, I don't, I don't write historical, Hmm. uh, fiction now, so it blows my mind how much research must, must go into this. And how did you, how, what did you do to,'cause like I said, when I read it, it, it really does feel like you're there and it's, um, so you've, you've just managed to show it on the page show incredibly Well. How did you. Yeah, do the research. Did you find it hard? How long did it take and

Madeleine:

So yeah, the research stuff, I mean, other than what my dad did, so I did my own research of course, and I started that in about 2018. Um, and I'd was pretty much been researching since then. Um, I find it a continual process. I probably did a couple of years of research before I even started the writing. I don't know if I have the patience to do that now. So it'll be interesting to see for book two what, what, how I would approach that. Um.

Tina:

were you researching for the writing or were you just researching because you were like, I'm going to write this one day? Or were you researching just for the enjoyment of it?

Madeleine:

So back in 2018, I was at an exhibition at the National Library and I came and I had this idea for a story set in that time in Melbourne, but I didn't have the characters. But then they came to me in this, during this exhibition, I was looking at a painting called, um, a Flight Affair Game by Alfred Deco, and you can. Look it up. It's on the National Library of Australia's website and it's this image of these women who were, um, grown butterfly wings and were flying from the UK or England to Van Diemen's land. So this is back in the 1830s, and it was all about how like transformation, how they perceived there would be greater opportunities for them and these people from the poor houses, from the asylum. So they're not your upper class women, they're people who are working class. And I saw that and I just thought the Butterfly women, the title came to me in a. In that second, I was like, ah, that's the title. And then the characters of, um, Mary and Catherine, who are Mary Jenkins, she's a police constable. She dresses up as her husband and goes on his rounds and she's based on actual character, a person in history, um, and Madame Laurent, the brothel madam who they're both very good friends. Um, and so those two women came to me and then it started happening after that. So when I had those characters, I then thought, okay, well it's time to do some more research. I'd done a little bit just out of interest to understand early Colonial Melbourne.'cause I think my question was always what were the circumstances that my family were in? Why would they turn to prostitution? And some of the stories were pretty grim. Like, you know, we were, the, the way we were finding these stories, it's not because we had their journals. You know, these are Irish women who were literate. Um, we had the, um, newspaper articles that detailed these, they really detailed accounts of their court cases. And at the time, the newspaper articles, they had this kind of dry wit about them as well. Like they had a bit of a flare in their writing and they would actually record exactly the kinds of things that my ancestors were saying directly, like direct quotes. So that kind of gave you a bit of insight and we had about. A hundred pages or something of these articles that dad had found. So that gave us a bit of an insight. So yeah, we're trying to understand the circumstances. So then I started doing a lot of research at the National Library, um, in Canberra and had access to basically the entire Australian collection, which was amazing. Um, of course there's Trove, which is the online, um, digitized newspaper. Resource and it's free in Australia. Um, so sometimes I would just go to a, a certain day in 1863 and look at the age and see what's on the front page, just to get, you know, some vibes about like, um, what was happening at the time, what were some of the things that people were talking about. Um, that's when I saw like the Melbourne Cup, which I didn't know was so early, and which is the horse race in, for those who don't know horse race in Melbourne. Big, big deal. But yeah, like I, I saw that they were talking about the Melbourne Cup. I was like, oh, great, well, we'll have to have a scene about the Melbourne Cup. Then like, just like things like that, you, you sort of pick up things. So I was doing a lot of research. I'd done too much. I think I'd done too much, and I hit a point where I'm like, I have to start writing. So I did and I wrote 30,000 words, 30,000 words seems to be a number that I get to,

Tina:

it's your, your spot. Yeah.

Madeleine:

and I

Tina:

You could probably write 30. Yeah. Do you feel like you could, the first 30,000 maybe just come really easily and then it's, at that point, maybe it's, threw them all

Madeleine:

away,

Tina:

a bit more. Oh, right. Okay.

Madeleine:

yeah. Yep, yep.

Tina:

So you just have a little practice, that's all.

Madeleine:

Had a practice and I, I realized the characters weren't even in Melbourne for those first 30,000, it was their journey on the boat to Melbourne.

Tina:

oh, interesting. But you know what, I don't, I don't think that's uncommon for people to do, maybe not 30,000, but, um, because a, a lot of the time, you know, you hear that advice. About writing, where oftentimes the publisher or the editor or somebody that's giving their professional feedback says, you've just started your story in the wrong spot, and you've started it too soon. Get rid of your first, in your case, 30,000 or first couple of chapters, even just one chapter, two chapters, three chapters first, third even, because you've started it too soon, you need to start it. Yeah.

Madeleine:

Exactly, and that's what I'd done. I'd started it too soon and I was like, I was like, this is a book about Melbourne. Why have I got 30,000 words on a boat?

Tina:

But you needed that. Do you think you need that? Because you are getting to learn the characters you're getting to, you know, you're putting everything together in your mind. And some people use that as a bit of a tool before they start writing. Maybe they've, they've done that before and they realize that it's, it's about creating a characters and doing all those things kind of off the page somewhere else. Creating, you know, settings and scenes and sayings and things. So you, you would've done that in that

Madeleine:

That's right.

Tina:

got to know them really well.

Madeleine:

Well, I got to know the friendship between Mary and Catherine, two of the main characters and I that really, yeah, it was definitely helpful, but it is really. So unmotivating when you realize that because you're like, I have put in so much time. You don't see the, the broader perspective when you're in that you just go, I have put in so much time and this has all gone away. So in hindsight I go, yes, that was really helpful, but when you're in the, in the midst of it, it's, it is not helpful at all. And so I actually put the manuscript down. That was back in 2019. Didn't pick it up again until 2022.

Tina:

Mm. That's a nice break. That's another little bit of writing advice, isn't it? To put it away sometimes. Not for three years, but you know. Um.

Madeleine:

think it goes down to, and this is something that we've talked about before and Ima episode with Emma, gods talking about finding the heat in your work. Uh, and I think that's something that, um, Charlotte Ward has said before about finding the heat. And for me, I lost the heat in that 30,000 words. And I didn't know where to find it again. And it wasn't until, and sometimes it just takes something else to spark and find that heat again. And for me it coincided with the release of a non-fiction book called The Women of Little Lawn by a historian, Barbara Minchenton. And I read that book. I was in living in China as well. I was overseas and I was really missing home. I was really missing Melbourne. I hadn't been to Melbourne for three years. And you know, this book is, is my love letter to Melbourne. It always has been and always will be. Um, I was living in Canberra but still thinking about Melbourne and then I was overseas and I couldn't leave the country and I was thinking about Melbourne. Um, and so re reading this book really helped Spark and make, helped me find heat. And that's where I found Joanna and Harriet, the two other main characters in the book after that. So I had my Mary and Catherine already, and I found Joanna and Harriet and I realized this was actually a book with four perspectives. That changed everything. It broke through and I found that heat again.

Tina:

That's, so that's an incredible story and I feel like so many. Things came into play there. Like you being away for three years and yearning for Melbourne, which has made you, that's a bit of your heat there. Right. Underlying and wanting to come to get out and then finding that book and, um, which was sort of, maybe I was gonna say easing your homesickness or maybe making it worse, but, um, Yeah. where you found those other two characters. So it's all just, and and had you have pushed through, you know, had you have gone No, I've come this far like three years early, just thought I've come this far, I'm just gonna keep going.'cause sometimes we do

Madeleine:

Yes. You trudge?

Tina:

Yeah. We push through for whatever reason and sometimes it really just needs a bit of space. And then in your case, just like you said, finding the heat. I love that. I love

Madeleine:

Yeah. And I think it's okay to like if, to put something down if you're not, if it's not working, if it doesn't, if you don't have the heat, if you're not feeling that joy in. And sometimes it's, for me, and I'm always a big believer, perhaps it's a little like woo woo of me, but I feel sometimes that the story, you're just waiting for the story to, you are waiting for the story to come to you and, and sometimes it takes time for the story to work itself out. And for me it's like the characters telling the story to me and I've just gotta listen and be receptive, I suppose, to the outside world and, and things like going to an art exhibition and seeing that. Painting. That's what inspired the title. That's what, how Mary and Catherine came to me. Things like reading nonfiction books. I'm a big fiction reader. I'd also like to dabble in nonfiction reading something that sparks, you don't know what's around the corner, but you've gotta be open to it. And receptive.

Tina:

It's so true. It's so true. Yeah. Just, yeah. Trying to find those opportunities being outside, in the outside world, and it really could be, like you said, gonna art galleries and, and exhibitions and things. Or sometimes it can just be walking the dog around the corner and seeing an interaction or seeing, you know, overhearing a conversation.

Madeleine:

Exactly. It could be music. It could be, yeah, it could be. It could be something just, yeah, like you said, a conversation and And you have that ooh, light bulb moment. It's this beautiful moment and it feels like the whole world is sparkly. That's what it felt like to me. After reading that book by Barbara Mentionin and I contacted her. As soon as I read it and I said, thank you, thank you, thank you. I didn't tell her I was writing a book.'cause you know, you don't really, as a day emerging writer, you don't tell people you're writing a book. You keep that to yourself. Didn't, I didn't even tell my parents. Well, my parents knew I had been thinking about it, but they didn't know I was writing it. And um, yeah, and I just said thank you. And then we have had this back and forth lovely email trial since 2022 and Barb actually read an early draft of the Butterfly Women and endorsed it, which meant the world to me. So yeah, it's all come back around

Tina:

It has.

Madeleine:

she's attending the launch as well in Melbourne next week and

Tina:

oh my gosh. That's incredible. That's such a beautiful story.

Madeleine:

it's very special. So, um, yeah, and it's interesting when you find the heat, I think the writing comes quickly. Like probably, and this is quick for me. I know Tina, you are a rapid writer for your zero draft, but for me, I had a first draft in about nine months, which I was working overseas full time. I was doing really long hours and you know, pretty busy on weekends. So I felt like that was pretty good. And also dense research too. You're dealing with a lot of dense

Tina:

Absolutely. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's a full, how many, how many pages is it? How, how many words is it

Madeleine:

Well, when I finished the first draft, it was only 82,000. And it's gotten up to about 94, I

Tina:

Yeah, yeah. yeah. So that's considerable.

Madeleine:

it is considerable. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And um, and then I suppose like once I had that draft, that first draft, I did something like 15 edits. Like I didn't just write the draft and then go, okay, this is ready for publication now. Not at all.

Tina:

good, good. Another top tip, don't just do not just send it out yet. It's not ready for publication. Um, so, so it's 2022, you've picked it back up. You've, you've had your inspiration, you've found the heat, and you have sensibly decided this is not ready for publication. I'm gonna edit

Madeleine:

Mm.

Tina:

15 times. Then what happens, Madeleine, how do we get from there to, to here two days before your publication date?

Madeleine:

Okay. So I will just backtrack a little'cause this is a fun story. Um, I was really close to finishing the first draft and I was about to leave China and come back to Canberra and my posting. And a week beforehand I did my final trip. I was on my traveling on my own. My husband was already back in Australia and I decided to go on a bike trip with my friend, uh, in the hills, in the mountains, in like close to bed. And, um, I fell off my bike and I fractured my jaw in three places and I broke like six teeth and. Yeah, I remember like seeing my, uh, this is like a trigger for people seeing my teeth on the road. I'm like, I've really, really effed up here. Really? Really up middle of nowhere, you know, went to the Chinese hospital pretty rough, saw lots of interesting things. It was covid too. They kept asking me, when was your last covid, um, test? And I was like, kept showing them all my codes 24 hours.'cause you had to get a PCR test every 24 hours.

Tina:

Oh my

Madeleine:

Um, there. And so yeah, I ended up coming back to Melbourne after, so I was originally gonna go back to Canberra, but because I was so badly injured, I had to wait for a flight for a week.'cause there was no flights out left posting a week early. So I think I was two weeks out and then, yeah, left posting a week early. I had to go into work, couldn't speak my lovely colleague, um, read out my farewell speech to all the staff. I couldn't talk. Uh, there's all these photos of me with all the staff. They all wanted to have photos with me, like, and I just sat there in the middle of the room, like not, couldn't smile, just

Tina:

swollen face.

Madeleine:

Yeah. And all injured and they're just, yeah, it was wild. And so I had to travel on my own back to China, uh, back to Australia. Had two 40 kilo bags with me. Like it was just, yeah. Anyway, so I got home and, and yeah, it, we, I spoke with my husband. We thought it was actually better for me to go back to Melbourne. My parents will be home all the time so they can help care for me and stuff. And so I was off work and I was like, oh my God, I'm so bored. Like, I'm so, I hate being on sick leave. Like, I get so bored. I was like, well, I may as well just finish the novel. Like, I can't work. I was in between jobs, like what was I gonna do? And, and so I was like, well, I may as well just finish the book. So I did. So I finished it on my parents' couch in Melbourne, which I think was really special. Being able, it's a book that started in Canberra. Went to China, finished in Melbourne, which was really nice with my parents. Anyway, um, so finished that draft, um, did all the edits on it and, um, that was really important. Took me may, I probably spent six months editing, I would say. So then it, it was about March in 2023 and I did a course with the Australian Society of Authors. I was doing a few courses with them. They're really helpful, so I really recommend those. Um, just everything from like editing to writing, you know, um, the industry. I did one called Pitch Perfect, um, which is all about how to pitch your work to publishers. And I knew nothing about the industry. I knew nothing about publishing. I knew no authors. I was an absolute nobody. I had no social media. I was just a no one. And so I was coming from it from the scratch. And I did some research though into the publishers and I thought. Because I wanted to make sure I was pitching to the right ones. And so for this book, very Melbourne Book, Australian story needs a lot of love, I think. So I pitched it to two, two smaller to mid-size publishers. And as part of the A SA Australian Society of ORs, they do something called literary speed dating. So the pitch perfect course leads up to that and you get three minutes to pitch your work over Zoom to a publisher. You can choose two publishers only or agents, so you can pitch to other agents or publishers. I knew nothing about agents or publishers. I was like, well, why would I get an agent when I can just pitch to a publisher? Now I know. Oh, sometimes it can be more strategic

Tina:

things. Yes.

Madeleine:

yeah, yeah, yeah. And now I have an agent as well. So, you know, um, just, I came at it from the other angle anyway, so, but I had done my research and so one of the publishers was Ruby Ashby or from Affirm Press, and I laughed, PIP Williams. I watched all. The interviews that Ruby had done, listened to any podcasts that she'd done so I could get a sense of who she is. I thought, oh, I reckon she'll like this. And they've done things like Sarah Pans Lost Athe, Gary, and, um, the natural History of, um, I can't remember the name of it. But anyway, lots of, kind of Melbourne e books. So three, I remember I was, I took, I was working from home and I, I was so nervous, so anxious, like sweating bullets and

Tina:

Had you prepared a pitch? Like, did you like have your words down? Yeah.

Madeleine:

I had my words to a tea. It was finishing at two minutes and 45, and I'm a former drama student, so I was like, I got my performance down pat. Um, and I had the words there, but I knew them off by heart anyway. And at the end, Ruby said that was a fantastic pitch, and, um, she said, I wanna know more about this. And, and then it was like a, SA were like, okay, your three minutes are done.

Tina:

Oh,

Madeleine:

like, click, that's it. That's all you get.

Tina:

yeah.

Madeleine:

And I remember just like jumping up in the air, like it was just good to have Ruby say, oh, we really like the pitch. So both publishers ended up, um, a week later you find out if they want to read the manuscript. So both publishers requested it, which was brilliant. Um, and so then you get an email saying, um, if you haven't heard anything in three months, follow up. But otherwise don't follow up before three months. And I would highly recommend everybody, even if it's tempting, do not just follow whatever they've told you and do not follow up. And so I didn't. Three months ticked by. And, um, do you want me to tell you the story about Yeah. Okay. So three months ticked by, and at this stage I was feeling pretty crap.

Tina:

Mm. It's such a strange feeling, isn't it, to go from, especially when those, um, when someone like a SA or I know there's lots of other organizations that do these Zoom, um, calls with editors and publishers and agents and they have control of when the call finishes.'cause it could be going really good, even if it's going really bad or you just have no idea and then it just disappears and that's it all gone. You can't ask a follow up question,

Madeleine:

that's right. That's right. And the other, well, the other one went really well too. And she actually, um, the, the publisher there did ask a, a question. She asked about the research, like how accurate it is and, you know, and I was like, okay, this is good. I'm getting, but you don't get much, you don't, you don't get much sort of sense. Three minutes.

Tina:

Gosh, it's so, and then to go from hearing absolutely nothing for three months. Yeah, I can

Madeleine:

Three months and I'd, I'd been, um, entering a, like in the interim, and I, maybe this is a good top tip. I hadn't been just sitting around, I'd actually been doing short fiction, so I'd been writing a lot of short stories. I, from as soon as I finished the manuscript to then, and I absolutely love writing short stories. I just had all this inspiration, creativity, and I'd ended a few competitions, had a lot of rejections, but also had a few, like little nibbles like I think I mentioned on a previous episode, I won$500 on a short story competition. And I was like, oh. And that's the first time I'd ever been paid for my writing. So just having that little bit of validation is good. And I remember I was at the. Sydney Writers Festival as just an attendee. And I'd had her a few rejections and I was feeling pretty down. It had been three months since, um, the publishers had had requested the manuscript and I, and it had been over three months now and I hadn't followed up and I was thinking to myself, mm-hmm. I think they would've, I think they would've let me know by now if they're interested. Like they would've anyway. That is a lie. Do not ever believe that. They are just really, really busy. So if you haven't heard anything, that's actually good.

Tina:

yeah, yeah,

Madeleine:

good. And so I was sitting at the Sydney Writers Festival and having a drink kind of wallowing, and then I got like the word from the Stringy Bark short story competition that I'd been like long listed for that. And it was going into a publication and I was like, oh, you know, just, I think having a few short story things in the works gives you a little bit of fun stuff. So I would highly recommend it. Anyway. Um, so I was at work in the office and I was on a teams call and I, my phone was just kind of sitting next to me and I don't normally check my phone at work, but for some reason it kind of flashed up and a name flashed up. And it was one of the, the publishers who I'd pitched to and I was in his team's call, and it was actually with like Prime Minister and Cabinet and like, so it was a pretty serious meeting and I was briefing on things and um, and I just happened to glance down and I was like, oh, well I'll have a quick sneaky peek. And I was looking for the words, unfortunately.

Tina:

Yeah,

Madeleine:

Thank you for

Tina:

to get the tone. Yeah.

Madeleine:

Yeah, trying to get the tone and like, I think the, the start of it was like, thank you so much for your submission of the Butterfly Women. We are really, we really apologize that it's taken so long to get back to you. And then I was like, oh, okay. And I was like, like, unfortunately, I was like, oh, we really enjoyed the, the Manus, the first a hundred pages you sent through, can you send through the full?

Tina:

Mm.

Madeleine:

And I was like,

Tina:

Prime Minister and Cabinet. I have to go now

Madeleine:

yeah, I know. Literally, I, I, like, I would just, my eyes were just like, oh my gosh. And then they're like, oh, Madeleine, Madeleine, what do you think about this thing? And I was like, ah. Oh yeah, yeah. Um, anyway, so,

Tina:

back to reality.

Madeleine:

oh, crazy. So I raced home, sent it through, and then she came back to me straight away and she's like, thanks so much. We'll be in, it was June in 2023. She's like, if you don't hear from us by the end of the year, let us know. So. Six months. Right. And I was like, oh, okay. So I kind of felt a bit, I was like, okay, no, this is good. But

Tina:

good to know though, isn't it too, like, it sounds like a lot, but also thank you for letting me know. I will not be checking my inbox every three seconds thinking that you're gonna get back to me in half a day, which we all do when we know that's not reality.

Madeleine:

exactly six months. I was like, okay, alright, that's, I'll just, yeah. So then I, the, the good thing is like if you've got a bit of interest, the other thing that you should do is also let any of the other publishers or agents know if you're getting some interest. So I had submitted to another independent publisher. And so, and to affirm obviously who picked me up. Um, and so I wrote to Ruby and I wrote to this other publisher and I was like, oh, um, this other publisher's, you know, shown some interest. Ruby actually came back to me a few days later and she's like, I haven't had a chance to dive in, but thanks for the reminder. Um, I'll come back to you. And I was like, okay, so what? In six months? I was like,

Tina:

Yeah,

Madeleine:

didn't really expect it. And then the next day she came back, she's like, I've dived into the manuscript. I am absolutely loving this. Can we set up a Zoom call on Monday

Tina:

Wow. Yeah.

Madeleine:

And I was like, holy moly, like dream publisher here,

Tina:

Yeah.

Madeleine:

Ruby, at a firm. I was like, oh my God. And so this is the moment where you just go, ah, okay, things are moving. And so I went back to. That first one that said, oh, it's gonna be six months. And she's like, right, okay, we are gonna get onto this now.

Tina:

So good. Having that little bit of leverage

Madeleine:

Leverage. And then the third one came back and they're like, oh yeah, we are really liking this. Can you send the th thing through? And I was like, I didn't know what was happening. Like, life just felt really weird. And this is the moment for everyone, everyone listening, if this happens to you, this is when you go to get an agent. Don't do it yourself. Highly, highly recommend getting an agent here. I did not, and I found it tricky to navigate. It was a difficult

Tina:

Well, you're essentially acting as an agent ward in that situation, who would then say, leave it to me. I'll take them all on, and then, um, liaise with all of them and negotiate with all of them. And that's a very hard thing to do as an author, especially as a debut.

Madeleine:

Very, very tricky. And especially as someone who knows nothing about the industry, I was messaging, I had some good friends who worked in the industry, um, uh, who had worked in when book selling day. So I was getting their advice. And their advice was, get an agent.

Tina:

Yeah.

Madeleine:

I didn't

Tina:

Which also feels incredibly hard. It is also incredibly hard, and especially, like you said, not knowing anything about the industry. Who do you go to? Where do you start? So

Madeleine:

It's tough,

Tina:

yeah,

Madeleine:

but again, you have to do what's right. And at the, in the time I felt like what it was. Right. And do you know what, like I was so lucky'cause like I did, I was able to leverage a few things as well. So, um, you know, think, consider things like rising royalties. It's something that we. You know, should be actually part of contracts. And what I mean by that is when you hit a certain sale level, like you've sold a volume, that you start getting higher royalties off that, because that benefits both you and the publisher. If you're selling that many copies, you are making money. So there are things that you can include and the a SA does provide that on their websites and things that you can leverage. So yeah, I was able to do things, some, some things like that. I'm sure it's not a faux pa to talk about things, but you know, that these are just some of the things to think about. Um, so, um, I had that Zoom call with Ruby and it was the best phone call I've ever had in my life. We talked about the story, like it, I'm like, oh, this is just made up in my head and suddenly I'm talking with someone really important about it, that, that felt really surreal. And at the end of the call, we spoke for about 40 minutes, and at the end of the call she's like, great. Well, I'm keen I'll, um, get an offer to you over next week.

Tina:

Love Ruby. Love her.

Madeleine:

I, my husband was working from home as well, and I came downstairs and he's like, how'd it go? I said, oh yeah, they're, um, they're gonna send an offer over next week. And Pat's like, you have a book deal? I. like what? I know. I'm like, I know. And then, yeah, and then the other publisher came back with a offer as well. And so then I had a choice. But like for me, affirm, they, I felt really confident that they understood what the book was that I wanted. And that was the most important thing, regardless of money, all sorts like that. And so even if I'd gotten an agent, I, again, regardless of money, I think I would've wanted to go with a firm. And I'm really, really happy with my choice. I did my research, I knew the publisher I wanted, and they have been fantastic. So,

Tina:

no, it sounds like that. You know, it doesn't matter how many times I hear those stories of people getting their book deal, it just still gives me goosebumps.

Madeleine:

I know. It's, it's very

Tina:

that's an incredible story too. And so well deserved, Madeleine, and now we're here. So when was that? So when did you sign 2023?

Madeleine:

Yeah, by the time I signed the contract, it was like,'cause I went through, the other thing is I went through a SA legal to do a contract check and I would highly recommend that for people who, without an agent, it's like$450. Um, Victoria from a SA legal is fantastic. Just get it done. It, you set yourself up, you know, and protect yourself. Um, and I'm not saying that there was anything strange or odd in the contract, but I think having that reassurance is really worthwhile. Alex Adset also offers that a service as well. She's a, um, literary agent, but yeah, she also offers to read contracts. So, um, yeah, so by the time we got that sorted, it was August and then, so yeah, I guess it's now April, so it's been, um, over 18 months, 20 something months. I think these things take time. Don't,

Tina:

take a long, long time. Um, uh,

Madeleine:

I'm grateful for that time too. It's been really good.

Tina:

When you think about it, you can't, you couldn't rush it anymore really. Like, No. really a lot of downtime in that time, which sounds pretty crazy, but you know, you, even when we hand our work back, that's due by a certain date, you know, there's all this other work going on behind the scenes, well behind the scenes for us, but, you know, actively in the publishing house to get it to a point. And it absolutely takes all that time. Exactly. Exactly. There's a lot that they have to think and now we're here two days out. two days out, so release date, April 29.

Madeleine:

That's right.

Tina:

exciting and book launch. So this episode will go to air before your book launch, which is sold out there. Sorry, everybody who thought they might go, um, but that sounds incredible. Can, can you tell everyone a little bit about it anyway?

Madeleine:

Yeah, so, well, I've got a few other events as well on next week. So, um, I'll be in Sydney on Friday selling, uh, selling books. Oh my God. Signing books. I'll, I'll probably

Tina:

gotta sell. them for people to sign them.

Madeleine:

Um, so that'll be really fun. And I'm actually meeting up with some of the Dimick head office people around there, so former Dimmick bookseller, so it's nice to be able to go and do that. And then Saturday I'm on, um, A BC Melbourne Radio with Jacinta Parsons at 11:20 AM So if you are in Melbourne, tune into that. Um, and then on Sunday is the book launch in Melbourne. It is sold out, but if you do apply to the wait list, um, I'm just

Tina:

Still probably won't get in'cause the wait list is probably really long.

Madeleine:

There are a few people on the wait list, but we'll see. I'm gonna send out an email going here. If there's anyone that can't

Tina:

need an after party that everyone can go to.

Madeleine:

We are having an after party at the Coopers in 5:00 PM so if you do miss out and you wanna come along, please do. Um, so, uh, and then on the Tuesday for the following week, yeah, I'll be doing a dim mix. Um, first Tuesday book club. I've got books in bars on the Wednesday. Um, and uh, yeah, then I can't keep up doing library events. I've got some in Willis Hill, which I'm really excited about. And Brighton Library with Marion Taf with another debut author who was on the podcast. So that'll be really fun. So yeah, lots of things. It's all on my website. Um, so Madeleine Cleary Wright, so do come along and say hi. I'd love to see you and chat. And um, yeah, it's always fun chatting to people who are fans of the podcast, I'm sure. And you've found that too, Tina, I think, when you've had

Tina:

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's so nice. And even Natasha Rye said, um, when she did an event up here in Brisbane and um, yeah, there was a couple people there that, um, were podcast listeners as well. So that, and so they came along because they wanted to come and see Natasha in the flesh, um, and hear her, her hear her speak. Um, so Madeleine, uh, I noticed that there wasn't any Gold Coast venues on your tour, but I will forgive you. Book two. Book two. I wanna see you up here.

Madeleine:

That's right, that's right.

Tina:

definitely Brisbane. Anyway,

Madeleine:

well, I looked at, I was, um, I had a quick chat with Natasha Lester on Soren at Sorento yesterday. And I was like, are you okay? Like, she's got, so, like her publicity schedule is insane. And she's like, I'm doing well. I'm like, good, I'm glad. So book two for, for, you know, next, my next book. That's what I'm gonna hold out my hopes for.'cause we've gotta have goals. Right. And it'll be a national book tour. We'll be, I'll be in the Gold Coast. I'll make sure of it. I'll just inform a firm that that's what I'll be doing.

Tina:

Yeah. You manifest that and it will happen. And um, that's actually a really good promo for an upcoming episode that I'm doing with Jane Tara. And we're talking all things manifesting.'cause she's a big believer in it too. And she's had some huge success and she did a lot of manifesting. So if you just, if you just plan for that to happen, Madeleine, you're taking all the steps in the right direction.

Madeleine:

Exactly. So this will be it. So, and look, you are having now an interstate book launch as well, so

Tina:

Yes,

Madeleine:

manifested that.

Tina:

I'm just, yeah, you just take the steps and it happens.

Madeleine:

That's right.

Tina:

That's my, that's my theory. So Madeleine, that was such an incredible interview. I so enjoyed hearing. Everything about the book and all some things that I didn't know yet. And, and your story to publication. Uh, and lots of, there's lots of top tips in there too, but can, do you have a top tip or

Madeleine:

I haven't thought about, oh my God, I'm not prepared. I didn't come with a top tip.

Tina:

I, it's a surprise that we do this. Is it You had lots though. You had lots of,

Madeleine:

Okay. No, no, no. Okay. Okay. Top tip. Um. Yeah, I, I think that my top tip is don't actually, I'm, I'm gonna relate this to a story. So, um, I was at Sorrento Writers Festival. A woman put up a hand in the audience and she asked a question to the panel, and a question was, should I look to get an international agent or an Australian agent? My book is both set in Australia and overseas, and Isabelle Comedi, who was one of the authors on the panel, I think her answer was really good. Isabelle said, what stage are you up to with your manuscript? She said, oh, I'm about one quarter of the way through it. And Isabelle said, don't even think about publication right now and worry about getting an agent or who you should pitch to or how to get your pitch perfected. She's like, you. Enjoy and focus on your writing. That is the most important thing. Finding that joy, I think in the writing and understanding why it is your writing. If you're writing in mind thinking, oh, I, I'm gonna write it this way.'cause that might actually more appeal to an international audience and then I might be able to get an international agent and hey, I might be able to get a, a three book deal with Harper Collins and, you know, earn lots and lots of money. No, no, no, no, no. Write the story you wanna write. That's my top tip.

Tina:

That is perfect and a perfect way to end the, this amazing episode of the Book Deal podcast. Thank you Madeleine Cleary for allowing me to interview you.

Madeleine:

Thank you, Tina. This was, I'm gonna say the most fun interview. Thank you.

Tina:

It's been my pleasure.

Speaker 3:

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