The Book Deal
Motivation and inspiration for emerging writers, helping them pave their own pathway to publishing success.
The Book Deal
Gareth and Louise Ward on the business of bookselling and writing bestselling cosy crime
Gareth and Louise Ward on the business of bookselling and writing bestselling cosy crime.
In this episode of The Book Deal podcast, Madeleine Cleary chats with writing duo Gareth and Louise Ward, authors and owners of two Wardini Bookshops in Havelock North and Napier in New Zealand. The episode delves into the couple’s background as former police officers in the UK, their move to New Zealand, and their transition into bookshop owners and successful authors. Gareth and Louise discuss their bestselling book series, The Bookshop Detectives, their experiences co-writing as a couple, and the process of plotting and character development. They also share insights into the importance of forming relationships with booksellers, the editing process, and managing their bustling careers alongside family life. The episode concludes with their tips for aspiring authors and their reflections on the impact of their work.
Gareth and Louise's latest book in The Bookshop Detectives series is Tea and Cake and Death (1 April 2025, Penguin Random House) and is available now in all good bookstores.
00:00 Welcome to The Book Deal Podcast
00:42 Meet Gareth and Louise Ward
01:25 The Bookshop Detective Series
02:06 Romance (or not) and Bookshops
02:54 From Police Training to Writing
04:42 Creating Garth and Eloise
05:01 The Writing Process
11:31 Life in New Zealand
13:08 Publishing Journey
15:36 Co-Writing Dynamics
16:57 Bookshop and Community
23:03 Navigating the Publishing World
28:19 Navigating Book Reviews and Critiques
30:08 Dealing with Rejections and Persistence
31:52 Vanity Publishers and Researching Publishers
34:25 The Journey of Publishing a Second Book
36:30 Balancing Writing with Other Responsibilities
45:45 Tips for Authors Approaching Booksellers
51:34 Final Thoughts and Top Tips for Authors
Follow The Book Deal podcast on Instagram The Book Deal podcast (@the_book_deal_podcast) • Instagram photos and videos
You can find out more about Tina and Madeleine and follow their journeys here:
Tina Strachan (@td_strachan) • Instagram photos and videos
Tina Strachan children's book author
Madeleine Cleary (@madeleineclearywrites) • Instagram photos and videos
Madeleine Cleary | Author
If you want to stay in the know, sign up to Madeleine and Tina's quarterly newsletters for the latest news first.
Madeleine: Subscribe here
Tina: Subscribe here
This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories, the authors behind your favorite books. No matter what sage of writing you are at, we've got you covered. I'm Tina Strachan. And I'm Madeleine Cleary. And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors one deal at a time.
Madeleine Cleary:The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging. Gareth and Louise Ward are writers, excos from the UK and the owners of Independent Bookshop, Ardini books in New Zealand. Their second novel written together in the bestselling bookshop, detective series, tea and Cake and Death features their beloved ex Copper and Bookstore owning Protagonists, Garth and Eloise. Gareth is the author of The Tarquin, the Honest and the Rise of the Remarkables book series, as well as being the bestselling and award-winning author of The Traitor and The Thief, and The Clock Hill and the Thief. Louise has one murder arrest to her name is an English literature graduate, and as an ex-teacher inflected Shakespeare on inner city 12 year olds. I had a ball chatting with Gareth and Louise about plotting and co-writing as a couple, and the business of book selling and writing, and they so generously shared their tips for writers about how we can best work together with booksellers. I loved Louise's message about forging meaningful relationships and Gareth's very honest advice too. If it's not going well, suck it up and move forward. Gareth and Louise Ward, welcome to the Book Deal Podcast.
Louise Ward:Thank you for having us. Thank you.
Madeleine Cleary:And I got your names correct as well. I didn't call you by the protagonists of your series.
Louise Ward:We haven't made it hard, uh, easy for people, have we?
Madeleine Cleary:No, I love it. Um, you know, I was really interested in your story because, uh, my husband and I, we actually met working at a book shop and we worked together in a bookstore for years, and I think there's something very romantic. People think about working together in bookshops. What do you think?
Louise Ward:Yeah, I suppose there is really, you know, it's a lot of people's dream to own a bookshop, isn't it? If you, if you have that, if you have the, the, the initial romance of books and stories and adventures, and then you bring human romance into it, then it's a bit of a winner. Um, we're not particularly romantic people. We've got a very strong, a strong and happy relationship, but I wouldn't say we're, we're chocolates and flowers. Cut types, other
Madeleine Cleary:caning in the bookshelves then.
Gareth Ward:I eat a lot of chocolate, but yeah. Oh, he does,
Louise Ward:but he doesn't give it to me, so he, no romance.
Gareth Ward:We, we met at police training college, not in the bookshop. So yeah, it was a bit That wasn't
Madeleine Cleary:romantic. No. So what was your first impressions of each other when you first met at the police college, as you
Louise Ward:straight
Madeleine Cleary:in there?
Gareth Ward:Well, uh. Louise was known as the Rottweiler at Police training college because she tended to bite everyone's head off. So that must been my first impression of Louise. I think,
Louise Ward:can I just say I was 20 years old. I had a lot going on in my life, so yeah, I was a little bit ratty and just trying to work my way through, uh, what was happening in the world and becoming a very young police officer. Um. And interestingly, um, so we, I was from Nottinghamshire Police and Gareth was from Northampshire Police and we, there's a central police training college where you all get together from the different forces. And in our little class there were, um, were there just the two of you from Northampton? Northampton, yeah. Yeah. So he and our friend Darren and the rest of the class called them the Northamptonshire Mafia.'cause they were just like, so, um. I dunno. So onto it and a little bit, little bit overconfident, shall we say. So yeah, the, the first impressions were overconfident and aggressive.
Gareth Ward:Might even say arrogant, possibly.
Madeleine Cleary:Oh, I love that. And so for listeners who aren't, who haven't read yet, the bookshop Detective Universe, so you are now, you've just released book two, which is called Tea and Cake and Deaths. That came out the start of the month, and I love that title, by the way. Did, is that something that you guys came up with or was that the publisher?
Louise Ward:No, it was all we came up with it. I think there's lots of sort of, um. Tea and cake, uh, bookshop references as it Eddie. Is it odd sketch that, um, tea and cake and,
Gareth Ward:no, it's tea and cake or death.
Louise Ward:Tea and cake. Or death. Or death, yeah.
Gareth Ward:Really. So that was a bit of inspiration. Play it
Louise Ward:all, all over the place. Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary:Oh, I love it. Um, so could you give us, Louise, perhaps a bit of an insight into your two crime fighting bookshop owning. Protagonist and their names are Garth and Eloise. Mm.
Louise Ward:Yeah. Which does make it tricky for people, interviewers such as yourself. You
Madeleine Cleary:made it very tough.
Louise Ward:Yeah. And I apologize for that. So when we first, it was Gareth's idea to write a book together. He's the author of, uh, six novels before the bookshop detectives. Yes. Um, and we, we thought, well, what, what should we write about? Well, we know about policing back in the day, and we know about running a bookshop and, and being booksellers. So we thought we'd, we'd play around with those environments and create a cozy crime novel. We wanted it to be cozy because we still wanted people to visit our real life bookshop without fear of being eviscerated or something awful. So, um, that was the, the genesis of it. And then we just really played with the experiences that we've had in real life of being coppers and booksellers and, um, created the story through that. Hence, uh, a bit of confusion. Yeah. Over the names, but we thought it was just a bit of a giggle to begin with. We didn't know it would really go anywhere. And about halfway through we thought, no, we've got something here. And by then we were so invested, I think, in what we created that we didn't really want to change it.
Gareth Ward:Yes. We just, we just lent into the fact that it was, you know, to start with, it was a joke on ourselves. And then once it started to become actually quite good, we thought, oh, we'll just lean into it because everyone's gonna recognize it's our bookshop anyway. So we just have fun with it. So, so I guess in the book, the two characters, um, Garth and Eloise, um, their ex-cop, they've come to New Zealand for a reason that sort of later becomes apparent. Um, and they're running this bookshop in Havelock North when. Sort of a, a cold case falls into their lap that they start investigating and at the same time, this sort of serial killer nemesis from the past starts intruded into their present. So a literary
Madeleine Cleary:agent, which made me laugh. Yes.
Gareth Ward:Yeah. Yeah. We were, I mean, the, the whole, because it was set in a bookshop, we thought we'd go with lots of literary themes and mentioned lots of authors and things like that. Because David
Madeleine Cleary:Williams, I remember
Gareth Ward:one time because it's cozy crime, it, you know, it's supposed to be a little bit tongue in cheek, a little bit funny. It's not like a. Procedure where you've gotta be really serious. So we just thought we'd have fun with it. Really.
Madeleine Cleary:Yeah.
Louise Ward:The humor's a major part of it.
Madeleine Cleary:Yeah, and that's what I loved about it. And why do you think readers these days are gravitating towards cozy crime? Garris? Do you have any insights into that?
Gareth Ward:I, I think it's'cause the world's so messed up. Basically, I think the world is going to hell of the hand basket. I think people just wanna escape for a little bit and they could do that in a book. So I think that's probably the the reason. And we've had people coming to the bookshop and say, this is exactly the book that I needed at this moment, because it just gave me a bit of a lift.
Madeleine Cleary:Are you finding that people are coming to your bookshop because of the book? Are they on, like, are they touring to your bookshop?
Louise Ward:What happened to you this morning?
Gareth Ward:Oh yeah. I just, I just popped into the bookshop, so I was transferring books where I, the bookshop to the, the Havelock one. Uh, and there was a lady from Sydney who I don't think she'd come all the way to our bookshop, you know, just from Sydney, just for that. But she said, I, I had to make sure that I came into the bookshop. So we signed her a copy and had a photo with her, so, so yeah, we are getting a few destination tourists, which is lovely.
Madeleine Cleary:Oh, that's amazing. So, um, I suppose I wanna go back in time a little bit to your early start because I think the story behind the story for you both is really, really important. This one,'cause it is so much of your personal stories are inside this. So can you give us an insight about what's true, what. Maybe you like, did Louise, did you actually bust a literary agent? Help out and, and I'm quote this, um, to remove the inadequate scribblings from the literary canon, which I love.
Louise Ward:No, not quite. I mean, that's just a joke about, you know, I mean we, we, we've got a wonderful industry. The book selling industry is amazing and it's collegial, uh, and, um. The ecosystem of writers, publishers, booksellers. It's, it is a wonderful, uh, world in which to live. But you know, there is a bit of literary snobbery out there, so it's just a little bit of a thumb thumbed nose at that kind of thing. So, no, I've never busted a literary agent, serial killer.
Gareth Ward:But you haven't arrested someone for murderer, which is,
Louise Ward:yeah, we did turn up one time. This is, well, I mean, it's decades ago, but, um. Turned up just in a panda army and the guy I was on shift with and, um, a chap had murdered his wife and it was quite elderly. And, um, also directed us to another home where he had also taken out his elderly wife's boyfriend who she'd been having an affair with. So it was this very elderly person, love triangle, which is, um, yeah, yeah. Kind of awful. And, um. We, yeah, we arrested him because we had to at the scene, you know, but of course then you, you call it in and CID, criminal investigation department come in and re-arrest him just to keep the chain clean. So that was us out of it. Never had anything to do with it again. So you just, uh, when you plug, you kind of just, um, first responders argue and Yeah. Gatekeepers for a bit.
Gareth Ward:So, so lots of, so the actual sort of crime side of the, of the stories is completely fictitious.'cause we were ex-co you know, there is a, a realism to the way we think, the way we investate or the way we, the way the characters investigate, um, the way they think. Um, you know, and, and sort of, it, it is quite realistic in that respect.
Madeleine Cleary:I. And I think it's important for crime writers to get it right as well. I know that a lot of riders do go and seek a consultation with, with exco like yourselves or with current day Police, and I think it's important to get the facts right, isn't it?
Gareth Ward:I think so, I think it is probably more important than police procedure. Mm-hmm. In our sort of stuff, you, you can bend the rules a bit, but we did, we have contacted various, um, police officers, um, medical professionals and veterinary professionals and all sorts to, to get specific details Right. Or at least so we know what they are. And then if we choose to like just bend them a little bit for the sake of story, at least we know what we're doing is, is sort of, you know. Correct dish.
Louise Ward:Mm-hmm. And people are keen to help. You know, I don't think writers should ever be, uh, worried about that. If they've got a contact or they know someone who knows someone. Just roll with that because people would like you to get it right. I think, you know, it's nice. Yeah, absolutely. Rather than complain about it afterwards. Why do these crime writers just make stuff up all the time?
Madeleine Cleary:No, exactly. And actually I had some advice from, um, a writer recently. Apparently you can contact media, um, the media teams in. Different, like in Australia, obviously we've got different police forces you can reach out to the Victoria Police force, their media team and, and ask them to consult things and isn't that great? I'm sure there are, there are other things in New Zealand and across other states as well. So, um, definitely lots of tools out there to get to get that right. Um, so what drew you, so you obviously living in the uk, um, police officers and then you decide, oh, um, we're gonna move across the other side of the world and, and open a bookshop. What, tell us a story about that.
Louise Ward:Um, my, I was teaching in the uk. You, you were in it then.
Yeah.
Louise Ward:Our children were quite little and uh, my brother moved out here and he'd been out for a few years and we thought, well, we better go and visit. And we came out in the summer and then we came the year after, or a couple of years after in the winter. And it was just like paradise, you know, compared. There's nothing wrong with the uk. We're actually living in quite a nice county. Mm-hmm. Weren't we, you know, a nice rural, rural county, but it just seemed there were, there was more opportunity, the weather was better. Um, the people were a bit more chilled out and, and, um, just really living their lives and we just sought opportunities for ourselves and our kids. So we moved over here and I was teaching here in Hastings for quite a while, and initially Gareth wanted to do nothing. You were gonna be a beach bomb, weren't you? Yes. How did that work out?
Gareth Ward:Well, it didn't'cause our house sale in the UK fell through, so I had to get a job it
to work.
Gareth Ward:Yeah. Which was terrible. So I got a job in it and then the bookshop in the village came up for sale. It was like, I went down, I spoke to the owner and she said, don't buy this bookshop'cause it's a complete dog. But we thought we could turn it around. And so we, uh, we bought it anyway and against all advice. And, uh, yeah, we, we did make a, a go of it and then, uh, then I got. Became a published author, and then yeah, a couple of years ago we decided to write together and here we are. Okay.
Madeleine Cleary:You have just skipped over a whole bunch of stuff, so
Gareth Ward:Yes, yes.
Madeleine Cleary:I wanna dive into some of this. Okay. So you, so you bought the bookshop first, so that was, that was before you decided to start writing? Or where had you been writing this whole time?
Gareth Ward:Oh, I'd, I'd always been right. I've always written really all my life. Um, you know, I had a bit of a hiatus when the kids were very little, but, um, I've always written, I've belonged to various writers groups. Um, and then I think in 2015 I entered, um, sort of a, a manuscript into a, a, a story competition called the Storylines Te Doura Award, and it won that competition. And because of that I got a publishing contract with Walker Books Australia.
Madeleine Cleary:Amazing. So, hang on. Is this the first competition you've ever entered?
Gareth Ward:Yeah, it was, I think actually, yeah,
Madeleine Cleary:it's a good strike rate. Often there's, you know
Gareth Ward:it when Zealand. In the uk you have to get, you can't submit to publishers, you have to get an agent, and that's terrifically difficult. Um, but over here, you, you know, a lot of the publishers will accept submissions or they will have certain windows when they will accept, uh, accept. Um, submission. So I I, I was just starting to write the novel that the, became the Trade on the Thief. And I thought, well, what can I do because of, you know, differently to make this one work? And so I actually did an online writing course'cause we had the bookshop so I couldn't go. And I was sort of a residential one. So I did that and the novel came out of that writing course and then it won the competition. And that's really where everything took off. And I think once you've got one under your belt, it becomes a, you know, it's still hard work becomes a little bit easier'cause people at least read your manuscript rather than sitting on the slush pile.
Madeleine Cleary:Yeah. And what about you, Louise? How, how did you come to writing? Had you always been interested? Because I noticed you've got a degree in English literature. Obviously you're a teacher as well. Has writing always been something that you've wanted to do?
Louise Ward:Yeah, I've always wanted to, but I've never done it. I've written a lot of nonfiction articles for newspapers and, but a lot of book reviewing. Um, I think when you can get your head around words like that and, uh. I'm quite articulate in the, in the way that I can express things, but I'd never really thought of fiction writing. And so it was Gareth's idea,'cause you like doing stuff together with me. And, um, we thought we'd just give it a crack. Oh, I had actually written that, and I always forget this. I wrote a couple of plays for the kids that I taught. Yeah. So I have actually done that before so I can make a story flow, but I always forget about that for some reason. So, um. Yeah, we just gave it a crack and it seemed to work. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Madeleine Cleary:So who did you both come up with the idea together?'cause I'm so interested in what it is like writing as a couple. It doesn't, I mean, there are instances where, you know, writers, um. Right. We co-write together, um, thinking like Amy Kaufman and Jay Christophe. And Amy Kaufman is actually a big, um, co-writer and I've listened to her speak about it. And it's, I think, really interesting as a couple though. Um, I, I, it perhaps Graham Simpson and, and ISTs, uh, you know, to, I think about, um, where do you start? Who comes up with the ideas? How do you brainstorm? How do you write? What's the mechanics of it?
Gareth Ward:I think it was really, it was what do we know about? And, and, you know, we know about the. So that's why we decided to write crime, and we went Cozy crime A, because it was popular, and b, because we did want people to come to the bookshop. So, um, we thought we'd go down that route.
Madeleine Cleary:That's a very strategic, uh, way to do it actually. I like that.
Gareth Ward:Yeah.
Louise Ward:Well, we've, we've spent a long time in this business and it's not an easy business to be in, you know, bookshops are closing all over the place, so we're always thinking about what's next? What can we do? How can we keep this beautiful thing relevant to everybody? And I've digressed away from what you were talking about. So back to you. No,
Gareth Ward:that, that was, so we thought, well, if we set it, you know, in the bookshop, it's clearly our bookshop, maybe it will attract people and, you know, just be good advertising for the shop. Um, and then we, I, I can't even remember how we did the first one. We just started like thrashing some ideas out about, about how it might work. And then once we'd got the idea of the plot, we pl it chapter by chapter. So it's written chapter about, so I write Garth chapters. Louise, I
Madeleine Cleary:got that. Gareth. Yes, yes, yes.
Gareth Ward:Louise chapters. And, um, well, some people don't realize that actually. It's funny. Really? Yeah. We thought it was quite obvious. But when we do book talks and that people are like, Ooh, I didn't realize that you,
Madeleine Cleary:I think the voices are very distinct in Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Gareth Ward:Yeah. I mean, and we both edit each other's chapters, but, um, but you know, we take. You know, priority on our chapter. Um, and we planned out what was gonna happen in each chapter. Which key plot points had to happen, but then it was up to, you know, to either of us to how that was gonna happen. So it, so it was a delight because when you are, when I get Louise's chapter, you know, I know what's gonna happen supposedly, but I don't know if I stick to the plan. Yeah, if you stick to the plan, which doesn't always, isn't always the case, but I dunno how so? It's like I'm reading a novel at the same time as I'm writing it, which is really great fun because I haven't written six before. It's a very lonely process, but this one's much more fun. I
Madeleine Cleary:can imagine it's, it's having collab collaboration, I think in writing an early draft. I think'cause uh, I mean that's what people have writers groups for, isn't it? To, to have some of that early collaboration. Um, but having that together, writing it together yeah. I think is really interesting. Yeah. Um, so, okay, so, so you are writing it together. Um, did you have any disagreements when you were in terms of where the plot was going or was it all smooth sailing?
Louise Ward:Yeah, we don't really have disagreements. We. Plot it out as in as much detail as you can mm-hmm. Without tifying that creative process. But if, if someone's like not sure, they will say, we've always said, park your ego at the door of this, this project. You know, um, Gareth's written six novels before, uh, he's very experienced. He knows a lot more than I do, but that doesn't mean that my ideas aren't valid either, you know? We sit and we plot it all out, and then off we go.
Gareth Ward:I think, I think both of us just want it to be the best novel it can be. So yeah, there, there is no ego. It's just like, is this idea better than the one that we had? Yes. Let's go with it. You know? And we haven't really had any, um, you know, sticking points. I, I think the major sticking points is like. Scar might make some un inappropriate comments that I think are quite funny. And, and Louise says you can't put that in the book. So those, those were probably the biggest sticking points I think. I wish we could
Madeleine Cleary:see like a, it's like a blooper reel almost. Of those. Yeah.
Gareth Ward:Well what I two, I think there was one or two that I said No, we should keep them'cause they are funny. But yes, quite a few got cut out. I liked
Madeleine Cleary:the, um, the, the sort of veiled reference to Rebecca Yaros. I, I'm assuming it was Rebecca Aero's on storm. I have no idea. Inflamed idea talking
Gareth Ward:about, oh, that
Madeleine Cleary:was in this,
Louise Ward:that was in book Dragon Heat.
Gareth Ward:Is it? What? No, I don't, no. I've got no idea. No.
Louise Ward:Yeah. Dragon's not
actually side
Madeleine Cleary:side note on that, um, what are New Zealand does reading at the moment?
Louise Ward:A lot of romance. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think again, that's the escapism thing, isn't it? So we had, we actually had midnight launch party for that Onyx Storm course, the book course that came out of, um,
Gareth Ward:and it was great fun. It was, you know, we had people dressed up really into it. It was really, really cool. Yeah. So, you know, fair play.
Louise Ward:Yeah. So a lot of the romance, I think still a lot of crime. I think crime never really goes out of, out of business. Mm-hmm. Um, because it's something that most people won't do. You know, everyone's got a line and 90% of the population won't cross that line. So they're just fascinated to see how criminals tick really.'cause it's not them. But yeah. What else is, uh, are there trends, are graphic novels for the kids still? Mm-hmm. A lot of them. And um, yeah, that kind of thing. Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary:I think it's interesting'cause we opened, um, when we, we opened a bookshop, um, not my husband and I, but um, we were opening up a bookstore, um, as some of the staff and we opened just when 50 Shades of Gray became massive.
Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary:And I remember a lot of perhaps disparaging comments about 50 Shades of Gray. I mean, personally, I've never read it, but, um, what it did is it opened up. Markets, um, in readers. Like they read that and then they want more. And that's not a bad thing, is it? To have, um, people reading?
Louise Ward:No, no, I don't think so. And I think 50 Shades. We didn't sell a lot of that. Interesting. And I thinking that was really, that was because, um, because we're an independent bookstore, people were either embarrassed to come and ask for it in an in independent bookstore.'cause they think you're a bit snooty. So there's been, I think there's been a little bit of a breaking down of that, that ba barrier, that independent bookstores are, um, almost gatekeepers of, you know, literary stuff. Mm. You know, so I'm glad that that's, that's not the case.'cause you know, we wanna sell Rebecca Ro and yeah, we do all of that just as much as anybody does. We wanna have fun with it too.
Gareth Ward:I think when 50 shares came out, we'd only just opened the shop. I believe. So, I think we we're probably a little bit behind the eight ball on it as well. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. I've forgotten what the question was, but I thought, oh, it was just
Madeleine Cleary:about New Zealanders and reading, and I, I, I had this vision that New Zealanders, I don't know why I always thought I imagined them reading very highbrow New Zealand literary fiction.
Louise Ward:I'll do that too. Yeah. So we've got our Ham New Zealand book awards coming up in May. Mm-hmm. And, um, you know, lots of, lots of eyes of readers will be on, on that. So Yeah, there is, you know, because we've got the university presses that produce really, um, yes.
Yeah.
Louise Ward:Quality literature. Um, and, uh, out of there. Writing programs as well.
Gareth Ward:Yeah.
Louise Ward:So yeah, there is that. But, you know,
Gareth Ward:but it's very broad spectrum, like anywhere really, you know, it's, you know, we have our sci-fi fantasy corner, and we sell, we sell a lot of sci-fi fancy, just because Kat, who people might know as Kitty from the book, um, you know, that's her thing. So she's, she's big into that. So, you know, it's, it, a lot of it is hand sales, the stuff we sell, and then it's, you know, and what
Louise Ward:you become known for as a bookstore. Yeah. Yeah. What's
Gareth Ward:reviewed, you know, if there's a review on the radio, suddenly everyone wants that book, so it's, yeah. But it's, it's a very broad church.
Madeleine Cleary:Hmm. That's wonderful. I know, yeah. I wanna talk about bookstores and community, but, um, so going back, okay, so you've got your first draft, um, of, so this is your first book, um, de Girl Gone. What do you do then? Like, are you editing it? How do you what? And obviously Gareth, you've. Previously published books. So you've got an in to the publishing, is that what you do? You use that?
Gareth Ward:So we, we, yeah, we edited it. Um, well the first thing we did was actually let the staff read it because we hadn't told them we were writing a book that they might be in. So we, we sent them an email. Um. Saying, oh, we're gonna have a staff meeting, but just to have a lot more staff, not the other one, which is quite unusual, so there's nothing to worry about, but just come up to our house and we'll have a chat about stuff. And they were, they were very worried. They set up a WhatsApp group and then, and then, so when we brought'em here, said, we may have written this book and you may be in it. They were so relieved it wasn't anything worse that they just won't with it. So we let them read it and took their feedback and made a couple of changes on that. Uh, and then once we were, you know, we went quite particularly through the editing, and then once we were happy with it, we, we absolutely cheated and abused our connections and sent it to people at the, um, the sort of four big publishers that we knew and said, can you get this to the right person? And they did. And two of them wanted it, two of them didn't, which is, you know, I think it's, you know, it's turned out to be a massive success, but I think it's interesting that, you know, even then two publishers just said, no. Um, and that's just what you're up against. You know, a lot of it is luck, in all honesty. A lot, a lot of writing is getting the right book at the right place at the right time. You know, if, if you know these two publishers had just signed a cozy crime, then they wouldn't have considered it, so,
Madeleine Cleary:exactly. We don't know what goes on inside those acquisitions.
Gareth Ward:A been the right place at the right time and, and then, yeah, there was a very minor bidding war and we, we ended up going with Penguin, which we're absolutely delighted about, so, yeah.
Madeleine Cleary:Yeah, they've been amazing. Let's not call it a minor bidding. What you just say? It's a bidding, it's an auction.
Gareth Ward:No, it was, it was very minor. Really? It was, but it was still nice that there was one, it was nice that two PE two wanted, two people wanted it. Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary:Yeah, yeah,
Gareth Ward:yeah.
Madeleine Cleary:And so Louise, as a newcomer to the industry, like in terms of the, the author writing industry, how did you find the process of, of going to publication?
Louise Ward:Um, a lot more intense perhaps than, than I'd realized. Um, yeah, having seen it from a book seller's point of view and, uh, just watching what Gareth had been through, I think every experience with a different publisher is different. So Walker books, Bateman books that he had his fantasy novels with, and that now with Penguin, I think they've all been different, but yeah, there's so much more to it. And, um, the editing process is so, uh, huge and intense and, um. That's another place where you have to park your ego at the door, isn't it? You know, if someone's saying like, this whole paragraph, what's that for? You know? And they, they have to be that direct because we've all got a job to do and you go, oh, well, yeah, actually it doesn't serve any purpose. So, um, yeah, so I, that's, that's my big learnings really is how the crafting of a novel
Mm.
Louise Ward:That, um, is gonna be the best it can possibly be.
Gareth Ward:Mm-hmm.
Louise Ward:Yeah.
Gareth Ward:I think you're also very nervous when it came, the book came out about what, how it was gonna review and things like
Madeleine Cleary:that. Yeah. Well, let's talk about that then, because I mean, it has done so well. You must be just, you know, blown away, or was it something you were expecting? No,
Louise Ward:no, I didn't know. I mean, I suppose the fact that two people wanted to publish it should give you, um, some confidence and it did, you know, and we thought, well, this is a great story, but does it just crack us up and does it just crack up that publisher because she's already in the book industry as well? Is it gonna translate outside of that? But I think it has, I think people have liked the warmth in it, the humor and that real, it's in the community. There's people wandering in and out who you're gonna meet in the supermarket. You know, it's very real for a lot of people. So, but yeah, with the, with the reviewing thing, I was very nervous about that because you are putting something out there in the world. You think, well, I think I can do this, but what if everyone thinks it's rubbish? You know? And I think that's, it's a legitimate concern, isn't it? Mm-hmm. Because nobody wants to, no, hold up this. Baby that they've birthed. And some people say that's ugly.
Gareth Ward:And it is a very personal process, isn't it? You have, yeah. And you know any, Chris, like even in the editing you criticism of your right. It hurts. But yeah, it's, it's much worse when you get a bad review. But I, I guess,'cause I've done a few before, it's just like some people are gonna like it and some people aren't and you just have more people like it than don't. Yeah. But I. And we thought it would be successful, but as booksellers, we know that they're, you know, every so often there's, there's a book that everyone says this is gonna be the next big thing, and it does absolutely nothing. That's right. So there's always that as well. Uh, but I think it took everyone by surprise. I mean, we've, we, you know, we, in our own hearts, we were convinced that it was a really great book and it was very funny. But like you said, you dunno if that's gonna translate. And so, uh, I think it took, you know, it, it is taken everyone by surprise. Absolutely. How well it's gone and how it's taken off. And we're delighted that it has, we've had so many lovely emails from people who we've never met. Said, I loved your book. I love book two and, you know, just really nice things. So it, so it's, it is been a lovely, lovely process.
Louise Ward:But for the purpose of your podcast and for, for your audience, I think, um. It depends on how much you want to get into the reviews. Like, I don't wanna read the bad ones.
Mm-hmm. I,
Louise Ward:I don't see the purpose'cause there are people who just won't get it and they, they are out there and so I won't go on good reads. I think that's just is gonna screw your head unless you filter into the five and four star reviews, in which case it's lovely. Um. And the publisher actually said, now how do you want, do you want all of them? Do you want just the good ones? And so Gareth will have all of them and I'll say, just the good ones.
Madeleine Cleary:Oh,
Louise Ward:I
Madeleine Cleary:think that's great.
Gareth Ward:I think it's harder when it's like a, maybe a magazine review or something like that, where quite clearly the persons who, who's reviewed it, doesn't like your genre of book anyway, so they're never gonna give you a good read. Why did you do that? That then? Yeah. Why didn't you choose a fantasy book if you don't read Fan? Yes. You know, you know, if you only read literary fiction, you're not gonna really get a great deal out of it. So, you know, sometimes that happens. You just have to suck it up and move on. Really? Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary:Sometimes in those sort of official reviews as well, I say official, um, because they're, you know, ones that have more credence I suppose, people pay attention to. It's actually quite interesting'cause they, they will pull apart certain things and they actually do make you see. Insights that perhaps you didn't really know and you go, oh, actually, that they might have a point. So this is what some authors have told me. They actually don't mind a cri a critique, uh, on their books when they're in these types of reviews because it's, it's quite, actually, actually a bit of a privilege to be critiqued as well, um, in this kind of industry.
Louise Ward:It is, it is. If you. If you value that person's experience. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, not what someone just saying it's rubbish for the sake of saying it's rubbish.
Gareth Ward:That's right. I've got an AI to write it for them. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, contrary for the sake of being contrary, you know, just because, yeah. But yeah, you, you know, it's all part of the process. It's like, you know, rejection letters are all part of the process. You, you know, I mean, every rejection hurts, but you just have to, you know. Be miserable for a couple of days, then get over it and move on.
Madeleine Cleary:Have you had many rejections, Gareth?
Gareth Ward:Yes.
Madeleine Cleary:We love a rejection story on the book deal, so please tell us.
Gareth Ward:Oh, well, um, I think just like when I was started out, you know, because as I said in the UK you've gotta go to agencies, so you know, you, you'd send your manuscript of many, many agencies and it will get rejected. And I had. Oh, this would've been about 35 years ago. I, I had to, I'd written a sci-fi novel, which to be honest now looking back wasn't that good. But there was one agent who was considering it and they gave it to one of their auth sci-fi authors who read it and just said no. So that, that
Madeleine Cleary:awful When it comes through another author as well. Yeah,
Gareth Ward:yeah. So, um, you know, but you just have to, you know, I've always been of the opinion that. When, when you write something good enough, it will find its way. So I, I always like, I belong to lots of writers groups and I, I always think there's two sorts of people. There's the, the sort of person who just wants to hear how good their writing is, and there's the sort of person who wants to hear. And there's a sort of person who wants to hear, what could I do to get better? And I was, I've always been that. So I, I've always, although I, you know, it's, it's a pain when you do get rejections, it's, it's just like, well, maybe I need to do some more work. Mm-hmm. But like, you know, with this one, we got two rejections. We got two acceptances, and, you know, it's turned out to be an absolute, you know, belter. So you, you, you've just gotta suck it up really and move on.
Madeleine Cleary:That's right. That's a good top tip. Um, it, it's, but
Gareth Ward:you know, you've gotta also think, well, why, why didn't they like it? Mm-hmm. Is this something I need to consider? If they give you, you know, quite often you don't get any feedback, but, um, yeah, and the other thing I would say as well is if you get someone AB absolutely loves it and giving you an absolute glowing shout out. If it's not one of the big publishers, be a bit skeptical. Mm-hmm.
You know,
Gareth Ward:I, when I was in the uk, I, I'd sent this manuscript out to, I dunno, lots of agents and not heard anything back. And then there was a publisher I sent it to and I got this massive glow review that said, how would they love the characters? They love this, they love that. And immediately I was thinking, oh, I'm a bit suspicious because everyone else thought it wasn't that good and it was turned out to be a vanity publisher who was just trying to suck you in to get the money. So I think, I think, you know, always do your research as well with your publisher.
Madeleine Cleary:That's really good tip. And I think, um, for those in Australia, we have the Australian Society of Authors, so if you're not sure about a publisher who's making a request, yeah, you can always seek legal advice through them, through the a SA legal, um, just to, to get a sense of what, what they're about.'cause yes, I know that there are. Quite a lot of vanity publishers out there. I think we've got some great small to mid-size presses Absolutely. In independence in Australia, although, you know, that's been changing. But we do have some really good ones who are very reputable. Um, and definitely not vanity. Absolutely. Yeah.
Gareth Ward:Yeah. So, but um, and we've had like people come into the bookshop and they, you know, with, with their, the books that they have got done via, and I won't name them, don't want of us sued, but by, you know, maybe some UK companies. Uh, and they said, well, yes, it's been produced by a, you know, a proper publisher. But, you know, we know that that's a, that's a terrible vanity publisher. And, you know, isn't that
Madeleine Cleary:heartbreaking? As must it, it's for us
Gareth Ward:because they, they have spent thousands and thousands and thousands on it. Um, and, and you know, we just know from the name that it's, um, there's a website isn't there, of um, uh, I can't remember what it's called. Publisher Beware. I think it's called Something like that, that lists. You know, validity publishers and that's always worth checking out as well.
Madeleine Cleary:I actually got a, recently, a colleague who's outside the industry asked me, oh, how much of your own money are you investing into the publication of your novel? And I said, just my time. You know, you're not putting your own money into it. And I think any publisher that asks you to do that. Yeah,
Louise Ward:absolutely. Be aware of what you're getting into. Yeah. And the outlay, and if you're get it back and what your expectations are, you have to,
Gareth Ward:there's a couple Zealand publishers who will. Um, who you sort of, you hybrid. Yeah, you do give them money, but they're also genuinely good publishers. So I, but as you say, anybody who's asked you for money immediately, the flag should go up and then you should do a bit more research. Probably, yes.
Madeleine Cleary:And maybe if you're just wanting to see it in print and to give a copy your copies to your family, if that's your expectation, then that's fine. That's different, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, um. Moving on. So when you released book two, was it different at the really,'cause we've got a lot of group, uh, debut authors in Australia. We've got a bit of a group at the moment. Everyone's now thinking about book two and I think publishers want you to start thinking about book two even before book one's even out. Have you found that process different publishing book two.
Louise Ward:I suppose the momentum was already there.
Madeleine Cleary:Mm.
Louise Ward:In New Zealand, it, uh, our book never dropped out of the top 10 New Zealand fiction.
Madeleine Cleary:That is amazing. Congratulations. That's just wonderful.
Louise Ward:Yeah, that's so, it's cool. I mean, it came out last July and it's still there and now it's in the two formats. It's in the trade and the B format just came out as well. So
Madeleine Cleary:we've actually, and given the churn the amount of. Books that are being released each year, that is really significant. Clearly New Zealanders, they obviously love to have a book set in New Zealand too.
Louise Ward:Yeah, I think early reviews for this one as well. I just was just so relieved because, um.
Gareth Ward:It's like the diff difficult second album, isn't it? Yeah. You're never quite, particularly if the first one's done so well, you're thinking, you know, if, if the first one's been all right, then the second one only has to be all right. But if the first one's done really well, you've sort of set the bar for yourself, haven't you, really? So, yeah. Yeah. So the reviews that came up were very good. So that was, that was a really, well, the
Louise Ward:first couple of reviews were just like, even better than the first one, and I'm like, oh. Yeah. That's amazing. So yeah, so I, that enabled me to just relax and not have that, you know, the spiral.
Gareth Ward:Yes.
Louise Ward:Yeah.
Gareth Ward:And I think, I think as well, it, it, we basically, the publication date got, because it had done so well, they brought the publication date forward by about three or four months. So we had less time. So it was like a real crunch for us to get it done. Mm-hmm. And, and so then you are, you haven't had as much time as you'd quite like to, to, to perhaps double check yourself, so, so.
Louise Ward:And you know what it's like carving out time to write, you know, we've got two bookshops, we've got brilliant staff, so we're not on the shop floor very much anymore. But you've still got all the admin and all the, the business side of things to do as well as, I don't know, Gary's got about 17 projects on the go generally, including being a
Madeleine Cleary:magician I read too. Exactly. Yeah. So how do you, how do you cover out the tone? I was just, I was just sitting here thinking about how are you running two businesses, writing books, putting out bestsellers, publicity. Being a magician on the side
Louise Ward:kind of seven days. Yeah. We, we did, we did realize earlier this year that we hadn't had proper time off from the shop, you know, where you don't touch any of it for about five years or something, you know, not one single day when we've not done something bookshop or writing related. So we did take, was it a whole day? I think we managed maybe like five days. Yeah. And I kept this laptop shot. I didn't even look at it, didn't do anything, and it was wonderful. Um, but you've gotta be really strict with yourself to make sure that you are apportioning your time and not wasting it.
Gareth Ward:Yeah.
Louise Ward:Yeah.
Gareth Ward:I think just because you know, it, it's quite rare that a book takes off. You know, I've. What, six before they've done all right, but they haven't like, done anywhere near as well as this. And so we just, you just have to make the most of it and just like, all right, I'm not gonna sleep for three months. We do sleep.
Louise Ward:Well, not so much, but I was waving about the bits of paper. Wasn't I Madeleine, before we went on, before we hit record. But you know, this is how I, I live. So Louise
Madeleine Cleary:is, um, holding up. Whole bunch of handwritten,
Louise Ward:my, my handwritten things of what the hell is going on. And we've got a really big one. We've got a year wall planner in the loo because you can't miss it, you know, and you get up in the morning and go, oh, yes. Um, but then you can also see where the gaps are. Oh, I like that. That's a good
Madeleine Cleary:tip. Put out your planner in the loo.
Louise Ward:Yeah. Yeah. Isn't it, because you know, you go in there a few times a day. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Um, and yeah, and when you find those gaps, then you go, okay. Is that a rest time or is that, well, actually I could sit and write for an afternoon there, so that's, so when's
Madeleine Cleary:your next rest time? Because I know you've been so busy.
Louise Ward:Easy. There isn't one, you know, we sort of grab things where we can, um. Just this last weekend we were down in Wellington. Gareth was selling the books at Armageddon, which is like one of the comic cons. Do you have the
Armageddon
Louise Ward:in Australia? Yep. And um, so he was doing that. I was support crew, so I was dropping him off, picking him up. Uh, but our daughter lives down there, so we made sure that we spent time with her in the evenings and we played a nerdy game, you know.
And
Louise Ward:then we're off to a festival. But we're gonna go for two nights before we're actually on, before our gig is on the Sunday, and they're putting us up in a nice sort of country, country home. Oh, lovely. So we will have a nice time going and watching everybody else's. So it depends how you relax, I suppose, doesn't it?
Gareth Ward:Mm-hmm. That's true. Active relaxers, I think relaxes probably just'cause we're always doing something, but then you just have to fit your right in when, when you can basically, uh, you know, um, with us,'cause it's chapter about you do get small break. You know, I've got to do my chapter. That's on me at the moment. Yeah. But Louise doesn't have to do anything until I've done my chapter. So you, you get a little break from the writing, I suppose. Yeah. So
Louise Ward:our bathroom got clean today because it's not my turn to do the chapter.
Madeleine Cleary:Oh, I love that. So you're writing book three at the moment then?
Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary:Can you tell us anything about,
um,
Louise Ward:it will possibly resolve one of the big threads? Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Gareth Ward:So it'll probably resolve the Pinter thread to a, to a great extent. Um, uh, we, we were lucky, so we got, we got a two book deal deal with the first book. So we got, we knew we were gonna do books one, book two, and then just before Christmas Penguin, our editor, publishers, sorry, he contacted us and said, do, do you wanna do two more books? And we said, yes. Um, and so they've said, you know, one can be a bookshop, detectives, and the other one could be whatever you want. Another bookshop, detectives, or something else. So we're in a really enviable position really, that. Leave. This is a trilogy, or write another one, or start a different series and come back to this one. It's, it's up to us. So we're Mm. So that's really cool. It's a dream.
Madeleine Cleary:It's like a writer's dream, isn't it?
Gareth Ward:It's a writer's dream actually. Yeah. And we
Louise Ward:know, we do know, like we were away this weekend weren't, we are going like, how good is our life? Yeah.
You
Louise Ward:know, so we are, we are very aware of how, of how privileged we are in the, but you've
Madeleine Cleary:worked hard for it and you continue to work hard as well, so you're putting in the work. Yeah,
there's that as well. Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary:cause in the end, you know, lots of people have dreams of writing a book. And Louise, you were saying before that you've always thought about writing a book, but you have to actually sit down at the desk and and do the work. Do it,
Gareth Ward:do,
yeah.
Gareth Ward:I've always believed. I dunno how true this is'cause you never get the feedback, but we, I've always hit deadlines, you know, if we've, if we've had a deadline for something, I've always really hit it and we have. So I think that's one thing. And I think as well, we've always been very receptive to. Publishers and editor's requests. So I, I think I've always tried to be that author that's easy to work with.
Madeleine Cleary:Yeah. You
Gareth Ward:know, and I think that makes being a nice
Madeleine Cleary:person, not, not being a, a dick.
Gareth Ward:Yeah. Yeah. I think that's quite important. I, I mean, I probably am, but I, I keep that all inside when I'm talking to the publishers. He gets
Louise Ward:me to check his emails before he sends them. Well, I think,
Gareth Ward:I think I'm a little bit on the spectrum, so I tend to just be quite focused, like, blah, this is happening, this is happening. Whereas, okay.
Sorry, the kids are, well,
Madeleine Cleary:I think it's important to
be,
Madeleine Cleary:you know, collaborative and communicative and hitting deadline. So if you are a writer though, who you know, doesn't have a contract, I, I'm, I'm on, I someone too who's really motivated by a deadline. And I, I think imposing deadlines on yourself, even if you don't have a publisher waiting upon it, I think it's still important as well, isn't it?
Yeah.
Gareth Ward:Yeah. I think when I've been writing like book spec, you know, without knowing that it's gonna be published, I've always tried to say 500 words a day. Just, just do 500 and then in three months or whatever the book is done or the first draft is done and, and that's the way I, I work. Then with these ones it's a bit different'cause we have got deadlines. So you, you, you sort of work slightly differently. But yeah, for, for me that was, you know, 500 words was a, an amount that I could do. Not easily, but, you know, if you, if you have a couple of. Half hours across the day or something, you can get it done. And, and that's just the way you just then keep moving forward. Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary:Is that what you do
Louise Ward:too, Louise? Yeah. Um, I tend to just sort of, scar is
Madeleine Cleary:shaking his head with all, no,
Louise Ward:well he hates this'cause I write really quickly and it really annoys him. So I will sort of think, and I'll visualize and then I will write it and I can hear it and I can see it. So it's actually flowing quite well and I don't tend to get stuck, but it, it really pisses him off because he would've spent, you know, several days and he's, he's, he's thought about it and he is chucked his heart and soul at this chapter. And he emailed it to me and I go right. Bit catcher. Yeah. And he, it
Gareth Ward:really annoys him. So it doesn't annoy me. I just find it hard because like, I, I find writing really hard. So I will, you know, it will take me maybe two days or three days to get my chapter done. And I emailed, you know, this happened the other week. I, I emailed it like Wednesday lunchtime, Wednesday evening, she sent hers back to me. I've got start. I haven't even had a break.
Louise Ward:And it's not crap either. Can I just put that out there? You know, what I write is of a fairly decent quality.
Madeleine Cleary:But how did you, how did, I know we've skipped over this a little bit, Louise, but you know, how, where did you get your practice from? How did you learn to write? Did you do, was it something at uni that you got or was it something that you'd
Louise Ward:Yeah, I mean, even as a little kid, uh, and writing essays at school, I just, I loved it and I loved, um, English literature. I did an English literature, A level, which, I dunno what you call that these days in Australia, um, you know. When you, you know, what the, the qualifications you do when you're 18.
Madeleine Cleary:Yeah, yeah. Uh, we call that all sorts of things. It depends on which state you are. Yes, exactly.
Louise Ward:But yes, so, and I, I loved it. And then I went on to study, um, it was humanities degree, but it was an English literature major, and I absolutely loved it. Just delving into these things and, and having ideas and articulating those ID ideas. And then when running the bookshop, you know, I've, I've written lots of articles for, um. The local newspapers and the local magazines, and then a couple of the nationals and then got to review on RNZ. So you, you're constantly thinking how you can put your, your massive jumbled impressions of something into, into, um, telegraphic sentences almost, you know, where, where it's gonna make sense to somebody else. So I've always really enjoyed that process and, um, I'm thoroughly loving. Putting that into fiction.
Gareth Ward:I think also you've always been an absolutely massive reader. Oh yeah, yeah. That, that was, you know, even before we had the bookshop, your, your free time was reading that's what you wanted to do. Yeah. So I think, you know, if you've, you've read a lot, you do pick up a lot subconsciously about structure of books and story in how it's works and sentence construction and language. Yeah. The language. So I think that's been a massive bonus for you. Yeah. And, and, and I guess with your, your study, you've also, you know, you think deeply about. The subtext and the subplots and what this, they're saying one thing, but they mean something else. So I think that just comes naturally for you.
Madeleine Cleary:Mm-hmm. Reading, isn't it? It's a simple thing, isn't it? It's an enjoyable one, but yes, it's um, been the top tip of a few authors that have come on the podcast recently and I think it's an important one. Speaking of reading and your, so running your bookshop. So, um, authors, uh, a lot of the day authors in particular, they've got. Questions from about how to approach booksellers? Is it annoying when authors come up and say, oh, I've written a book. Um, can I sign it? Or is it something that you enjoy?
Louise Ward:I think that's marvelous if they know it's in the shop. If they've either looked it up online before so they're confident, you know, coming in because they know you stock it. Um, please identify yourself to the bookseller. You know, I mean, you'll get, you'll get varying degrees of response, but, um, you might wanna let them know you're coming or I see you've got my book in stock. Shall I pop in and, and sign some? Because, you know, for a book seller, it's a great opportunity. We can take photos, we can stick it on the socials, um, and have a little celebration that that author's been in. I. It's quite funny'cause a lot of readers still have a disconnect between the book that they love and the fact that a person actually wrote it and it came out. So, um, it, when they've actually signed it, I think that's quite a special thing. So yeah, I would say yeah, definitely identify yourself.
Gareth Ward:Yeah. I, I think it's different for different bookshops and you will, you know, maybe chains are different to indies, perhaps, but I think most people would, I mean, we, we've done this with the hub book. We've like wandered into bookshops and had a look and seen that they've got it and then we've gone up, you know? Um, so you, it is, it is nicest to check first because that saves a lot of embarrassment. Um,
Louise Ward:but because we are booksellers, I think then we'll, we'll. We'll pick the book up and we'll go and we'll say, this is us. You know? I know you're really busy. Do you want us to sign it? It's totally fine if you don't, you know? Yeah. So then they've got a, they've got a get out, get out clause because it Good idea put on the spot. Yeah. You know, and it can be awkward, especially if it's like on a Saturday and
Madeleine Cleary:lunchtime and busy and Yeah.
Louise Ward:Yeah. And they're busy or that book sellers like part-time and they don't know what the protocol is.
Gareth Ward:Yeah, yeah. Or might be that they come, you know, sometimes it's only the owner who makes that decision. So it depends on who they are. So Yeah. But if you're just polite. And you know, that's all you can ask and, and, um, also. From a books seller's point of view, sometimes a lot of our books are what they call seller returns. So if they don't sell, we send them back. If they're signed, sometimes you can't send them back. So it might be that they want you to sign some of them, but not all of them. So just be respectful of that as well, you know, you know, do you want me to sign some, how many do you want me to sign, sort of thing, and give them that as well. And, and so, yeah, and
Louise Ward:give the bookshop a, a shout out on your socials too, you know? Yeah. That's a good idea.
Gareth Ward:But, but certainly we don't mind people coming in and saying, look, you've got my book here. Can I sign it? Great. And, and you know, we know that people don't know what authors look like, so, you know, you, you don't expect to be recognized. So it's, it's, you know, it's nice when the author does come up and say, this is me, this is me. Do you want me to sign them? Sort of thing, you know? Yeah. Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary:That's good advice. Do you have any other tips for authors in, in booksellers, um, how to be a good author?
Louise Ward:Yeah. I mean, it is very much a, a symbiotic relationship, you know? Mm-hmm. You don't write them, we can't stop them. Um, and also you need us to, to get that wider audience. So, um, yeah, get in touch. Just say, you know, if you know that that book is in stock at that bookshop, click'em an email. Some authors must write a billion postcards. We've had postcards saying, thank you for stock stocking my book. And as a, as a bookseller, you just go, oh, and you've created that relationship with somebody, a real personal relationship.
Madeleine Cleary:Oh, I love that. That's a, I haven't heard that one before. I think that's really beautiful hand.
Gareth Ward:Be a dick, you know, uh, you know, at the end of the day, book selling, there's a real, you know, writing's a really hard job and getting your book published is really impressive, but also book selling's really hard. So, you know, if the person doesn't have your book, don't be funny about it. Um, don't necessarily be the person who then takes all of their book and moves it to a different space in the book shop. So. Um, yeah. Or don't know where it's going for a start. Yeah. You know? Um, so yeah, just, just be respectful because they're part, you know, they are part of the business, but you don't want to be rude to the person who's selling your book. Yes. And it does happen, you know, and if they haven't got your book, just suck it up, you know.
Louise Ward:Or talk to your publisher and the publisher's rep and say, you know, I think it do well in this bookshop. Yeah. Have you, have you tried or, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
Madeleine Cleary:Yeah. And I think it's interesting because, um, a lot of authors don't realize that not every bookshop is gonna stock their book. There's, and there's new releases coming out each month, every Tuesday there, the new ones hit. Like, it's, it's a constant thing. So you really get that small window, don't you, to really make a up.
Gareth Ward:You get about three months on the shelves, or, well, it probably, it would start longer, but you, you get three months of promotion from your publisher or something like that, and then it's, yeah, so I, I think you can, you can help by just. Friendly with the booksellers being nice because then they're more likely, you know, if you're gonna do an event, promote that event, you know, do everything you can to help promote it.
Louise Ward:It's a bit of work. Yeah. And you've gotta, you know, don't expect everyone else to do it for you. Some, some authors, you know, when they're pretty big, they don't have to do anything. But, you know, we've done a lot of putting ourselves out there mm-hmm. For our novels and, um.
Gareth Ward:Also, we like visiting book shops. We've enjoyed it though. Yeah. They're not complaining fun. Easy for us, but
Louise Ward:don't expect it to just happen.
Gareth Ward:Yeah. You've gotta be part of the project. Yeah. I think, I think these days you have to put the effort in as well. Yes. Yeah. And also, yeah, just, just suck it up. If it doesn't go well, we've, we've. Had events that haven't gone so well that it's just, you know, um, you know, for us as the authors, but also for us as booksellers. And you can, you can do everything you want. You, you can to try and get an audience and people may not just turn up. And if that happens, that happens. You just have to live with it, you know?
Madeleine Cleary:Yeah. And it's a good story to tell on a podcast in future and a festival as well. Yeah, exactly. Big
Louise Ward:authors have all got that story where nobody turned up for their event, so Yeah. Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary:Resilience building, it's important. As an author, I think.
Louise Ward:Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary:So to finish, we always ask our guests to leave the listeners with one, um, top tip. Um, and you've already given us some great top tips so you can repeat one that you've already given. I'm guessing Gareth is, don't be a dick. But, um, I'm, I'll hand it over to both of you.
Louise Ward:My mine's always create relationships, you know, just be who you are, be genuine, and, um, reach out on a human being level, not on a sort of. I'm emailing a corporate bookshop, you know? Mm-hmm. Just actually just try and create genuine human relationships, because that's gonna work well for everybody.
Gareth Ward:I, I think, um, when I do writing talks, I always start with this Venn diagram. So it's got three circles and one is craft. So, you know, you, you have to have the craft of your writing.'cause no one's, you are generally not gonna publish something that's not very good. You have to have persistence. Because you are gonna get rejections and then you have to have luck, and there's that little sweet spot where they all intersect and you can change some of those. You can't change, you can't really do anything about luck, but you can make your craft better and you can be persistent to, to increase your chances, um mm-hmm. Uh, but you still rely on that element of luck and that that's all there is to it. Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary:Maybe you can reduce that element of luck by doing your research in terms of, well, who, who is gonna be the best place to, to pick up this work? What have they been publishing in the past? Um, is this hitting the market that they want as well? So doing your research really helps, I think with that too.
Gareth Ward:Yeah, AB absolutely. I mean, I think, um, I guess. Writing to market is a thing we, I mean, we, I guess we did with this, but it wasn't necessarily a hugely conscious decision. I think you've gotta write what you enjoy writing, really. Of course, for me, writing has always been about writing what I want to write and anything else is a bonus, so, yeah. Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary:Mm-hmm. No, I agree. Write what you wanna write. That's a lovely way to finish off. Um, so, um, you have to plug your bookshop as well, but when you go into bookstores, everybody, make sure you pick up a copy of Garris and Louisa's latest book in the bookshop, detective series, tea and Cake and Death, which is a great title. Um, so thank you so much for joining me. And do you wanna tell us for our New Zealand listeners, I think we have a few where your bookshop is.
Louise Ward:Yeah, so we are on, uh, the North Island. We are in Hawkes Bay, which is on the East coast, and we've got bookshops in Havelock North and one in Napier.
Madeleine Cleary:Amazing. Thank you both so much for joining us on the Book Deal podcast.
Gareth Ward:Thanks for having us. It's been a pleasure.
Thank you for listening to the book Deal podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the pod so you can receive updates as soon as our. To keep up to date with what the PO is doing. You can also find us on Instagram.