The Book Deal
Motivation and inspiration for emerging writers, helping them pave their own pathway to publishing success.
The Book Deal
The Takeover: Shankari Chandran on writing for pleasure, giving up on the dream of getting published, and how to create longevity in the publishing industry
In this episode of the Book Deal Podcast, host Natasha Rai interviews Australian Tamil lawyer and author Shankari Chandran. They discuss Chandran's journey in writing and publishing, focusing on her novels 'Unfinished Business,' 'Chai Time at Cinnamon Gardens,' and others. Chandran shares her experiences about navigating the literary world, dealing with rejections, and the importance of diversity in publishing. She also talks about her work's adaptation into TV series and offers advice for emerging writers. The episode sheds light on the challenges and triumphs faced by authors in the literary landscape.
00:00 Introduction to the Book Deal Podcast
00:34 Meet Shankari Chandran: Award-Winning Author
01:28 Discussing 'Unfinished Business'
03:11 The Journey of Writing and Publishing
07:36 The Role of Writing in Social Change
10:52 Navigating the Publishing Industry
18:05 Building a Writing Community
24:23 Introducing True South by Gisela Ervin-Ward
25:53 The Journey of Writing and Publishing
27:48 The Impact of Chai Time at Cinnamon Gardens
39:59 Navigating Diversity in Publishing
46:44 Advice for Emerging Writers
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This is the Book Deal Podcast, monthly takeover by your host, Natasha Rai. I'll be bringing you even more debut and season authors as they talk about their path to publication.
Madeleine Cleary:The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
Natasha Rai:Shankari Chandran is an Australian Tamil lawyer and author of Chai Time at Cinnamon Gardens, Song of the Sun God, The Barrier, Safe Haven and Unfinished Business. Her fiction explores dispossession and the creation of community, and in 2023, she won the Miles Franklin Literary Award for Chai time at Cinnamon Gardens. Shankari has spent over two decades working as a lawyer in the social justice field on national and international program design. She's based in Sydney, Australia, where she lives with her husband and children. Hi Shankari Chandran, welcome to the book Deal podcast.
Shankari Chandran:Hi, Tash. How are you?
Natasha Rai:I'm very well. How are you?
Shankari Chandran:Very well, thank you. Excited to be here with you.
Natasha Rai:Thank you. Um, so you've just been at the Newcastle Writers Festival this weekend and uh, you were talking about a sense of place. Is that right in your panel?
Shankari Chandran:That's right. With Jock Serong and Ashley Kalagian Blunt.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. And I'm curious about how that shows up in your latest novel Unfinished Business.'Cause this is your fifth novel, is that right?
Shankari Chandran:It is my fifth novel. Yes. Yes.
Natasha Rai:And it came out four months ago or a bit.
Shankari Chandran:Yeah. End of December, 2024. That's, so it's really a sort of 2025 release.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. Okay. And how has that been? I, I wanna talk about that in a moment, but how has that last few months been for you? Since it's been out?
Shankari Chandran:It's been good. We did a, a quieter launch than usual because I'd launched, um, un I'd launched Safe Haven, my fourth novel last year in May. So that was May, 2024. And then Unfinished Business was December, 2024. And, uh. I figured booksellers would be sick of seeing me and was really happy to just go very low key, mostly online. Um, and then quite a big, um, ad buy campaign for this particular book. So there've been posters and so on, which I've never had before. It's super exciting, uh, to see me, you know, in public spaces like that.
Natasha Rai:Yeah, and I actually wanna come back to that in terms of that length of time between Safe haven and Unfinished Business. Um, but for now, how do you feel about giving me your elevator pitch for Unfinished Business?
Shankari Chandran:Oh my God. I got asked to do this at the festival and do you know, it's actually been eight years since I wrote this book between writing it and publishing it, so we can talk about that more later. Yeah. Yeah. Yep, definitely. And I've written many books in between. And therefore, um, well not that many, but you know, a few. And therefore I have, I frequently just forget what I've done. Um, but I shall do my best. Unfinished Business is set in 2009 at the end of Sri Lanka's Civil War. Amina Fernando, a journalist is executed on the streets of Colombo. No one knows who did it or why. Was it the Sri Lankan government? Was it the Chinese government or was it the Tamil Tigers? Ellie Harper. A CIA agent is sent from the US. Back to Sri Lanka where she was part of a mission that had failed many years before she has sent back to work with those people that she let down to investigate the murder of a of Amina Fernando. In doing so, she goes on a journey of redemption and comes to respect this journalist that she never knew and uncover an international weapons conspiracy. So Unfinished Business is about the way that superpowers rising, superpowers and aging superpowers play God in the lives of other countries and other communities, and the devastating impact that this can have.
Natasha Rai:That sounds amazing. What? What a great pitch. And also,
Shankari Chandran:thank you. Thank you.
Natasha Rai:Sadly.
Shankari Chandran:Did you see that I could keep, I kept forgetting.
Natasha Rai:No, I couldn't see that.
Shankari Chandran:The journalist's name. I was like, God, what's her name again?
Natasha Rai:No, but I was just gonna say it's also sadly re still relevant, the idea of superpowers and the influence they have.
Shankari Chandran:Right. Yes, I think it, it's an interesting one with this particular novel because I did write it, um, the first draft I wrote in 2016, and at the time I was particularly concerned about, um, the aftermath of the Sri Lankan Civil War. I. The, the international politics of it had been, had not been interrogated, nor had the, the domestic injustices of it. But I was also, I was, I was interested in both, um, and particularly interested in the role that governments had played in that conflict, either through intervention or through non-intervention. And what is the culpability of, of these sort of state actors. Um, and so I did want to prosecute what happened at the end of the war and the role that other countries took in our, in domestic politics, and found that the thriller paradigm or the thriller genre was the best way to do it. And I was particularly interested in. The rise of China and its sort of securing of, its of its trade routes and its energy and resource and infrastructure routes. And so when I wrote it, it was a little bit out. It was out there at the time, like no one was interested in it. Um, the sales from The Barrier had not been. Particularly strong. Um, I think I like to joke, but I'm actually quite serious that sales of the barrier had been driven by my father and my sister-in-law. Um, and so, you know, you're only ever as good as your last sales record, and that can hang like an albatross around your neck, which can be very unfortunate. Um, particularly because your skills as a writer are maturing as you develop and as time goes by and with each novel you are hopefully. And really actually getting better and better. Mm-hmm. Um, and so with this third manuscript, publishers weren't interested in it. I let it sit on a, on a laptop for, for many, many years. But now coming back into the public space, I. The novel seems to be more topical, more relevant than ever. Um, and we are adapting Unfinished Business and the character of Ellie Harper. So my returning protagonist is a CIA agent with a, a background in human rights law. We're bringing her back as a returning series and a returning potentially a TV adaptation. And in that. Our research for a book that was set actually in 2009 and written eight years ago. The research is all contemporary news because everything that is happening or happened in 2009 and happened when I wrote it, is continuing to happen, which is terrifying. Really. Really. It is terrifying and it's really, I think it's, you know, it's the universal that's located in the specific and the culturally and politically specific, the geographically specific. That speaks to universal themes and our inability, clearly to learn from our mistakes.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. So how do you kind of keep, for want of a better word, maybe hope or the will to keep going because you, you're, you're right about at times heavy. Or again, want a better word, serious topics. How does, how do you keep going when what you're writing is almost mirroring what is happening in our reality?
Shankari Chandran:I think, um, excuse me. I'm trying to win myself off chocolate, and that seems to, I'm trying to find substitutes like pickled ginger, so. It's a good question, Tash, and I think that I'm inherently optimistic. I do, I I do feel that on most days I have a sense that if we just keep trying, we'll be okay. Mm-hmm. And at the very least, all I can control is my own best efforts. That's true. Um, and to some degree. The children that I've brought into the world have some very limited control over them. Increasingly less control than I used to have. And so I feel a, a degree of optimism and a degree of commitment to putting in the hard work, like a really high degree of commitment to putting in the hard work, whether it be with my writing or just whether it be in how I try to live my life. And then other days, you know, I'll smash a family sized pack of mini violet crumbles.
Natasha Rai:Excellent. Yeah. And just sometimes that's the only way
Shankari Chandran:I think. So, you know, four hours on Netflix later, and, um, yeah, that's how, that's how I manage. But I think writing, for me is incredibly therapeutic and it's really part of that process of maintaining hope. I write a lot of my anger, frustration, my fears, my existential anxieties, my concerns about injustices. I work through a lot of that in my writing. And although I don't think that I am necessarily creating social change through my writing, I do feel that I am creating connection through my writing. Mm-hmm. And I think connection is necessary before we can even contemplate change. And so to that extent. I think there is enormous value in any of us writing, um, and value in what I write or what I try to write about and the way that I try to connect with people through that writing.
Natasha Rai:For sure. And especially when you said about anyone, you know, everyone's writing because people are writing different stories or different perspectives, but actually there's always a commonality in the human experience, right? So even if somebody's writing about. A culture or an experience or even a genre they're not familiar with. There are points of connection always into the story or a character or an experience that character is undergoing or going through always. Mm-hmm. Um, so you mentioned earlier The Barrier. Is that your first novel in Australia?
Shankari Chandran:Yes, it was the first one that was published in Australia, but it was actually my second novel that I wrote.
Natasha Rai:Yes. Because you've had, uh. Is interesting. The right word. Start to your publication,
Shankari Chandran:can use any word you wanna use. Tash, you're a wonderful, brilliant writer. I'd be honored to receive any word from you.
Natasha Rai:Stop it. Anyway. Um, I'm curious about your publishing journey, uh, because I know, and one of the things we talk about a lot on this podcast is how you can come to a point of getting traditionally published. And there are so many ways in. But I know that yours was also a bit of a different beginning to where you are now.
Shankari Chandran:Yes, definitely. Um, when I started out I had, I wrote a manuscript called Song of the Sun God, which was about three generations of Sri Lankan, Tamil Australian women, and the choices that they make to survive Sri Lanka Civil War. So it is in part set in Sri Lanka and in part set in Australia. And the feedback that I got when I queried it with agents and publishers was that it was well written, interesting characters, strong language. Um. But that the novel wouldn't sell in Australia, that it wasn't Australian enough to be published here. And this was some, um, 10 years ago.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. I was just about to ask you what year, so you wrote Unfinished Business in 2017, you said. So had you already written Song of the Sun? God, at that point?
Shankari Chandran:Point I had, yeah. I had, yes. So I had written it. And then spent a year struggling to find a publisher in Australia. Mm-hmm. And eventually, uh, sent it to a publisher in Sri Lanka and published it with him. Mm-hmm. And that was a very small publishing house. And you know, it's interesting. My husband and I both have very mixed and different. Perspectives on that particular publisher because from her's, from my husband's perspective, he feels that that was the getting that book published was what unlocked me to. Okay.'cause I really, there's this thing, particularly with your first novel, I feel I was so, you know, it was really my first born and I couldn't see past anything in life until that novel had been published. And I was very new, um, and ignorant of the publishing industry. And what I eventually realized that is that publishing can take months or years. Whether it be traditional or non-traditional publishing, it can take a very, very long time and sometimes not at all.
Natasha Rai:Mm.
Shankari Chandran:And the key for me that I eventually learned was to, to keep writing. So whenever I have written something, I am almost immediately, I will allow myself to rest, but I'm almost immediately searching my mind and the world for the next story because the pipeline of work and the body of work. It can take, I mean, it can take a book two years, even after you sign a publishing contract to get it onto shelves. So you want to have your next novel or research ideas, crappy first drafts in motion. You should not be waiting. To see that book on a shelf before you then begin the next step. Now, in reality, writers, once you start writing, you love writing so much, you can't stop. Right. Well, I certainly, once I began, I became addicted and that was it. I developed a very unhealthy relationship with my laptop, um, but nothing illegal, rest assured. Um, but I think at, so I will, I'm unlikely to ever stop writing, even if I stop publishing, but with my first novel. Everything felt so contingent on seeing that novel published. Everything was after I get published or after I get an agent, and actually you can't live life like that because you have no control over that. So with this particular first novel, my husband is delighted that it went to the Sri Lankan publisher and he was able to unlock effectively what became the rest of my career. That experience was more challenging because it was a small publisher. I did not know enough, um, about myself or have enough confidence within myself to really negotiate that contract, so there was no negotiation. I know so much more now. I know that there are standard terms that are on the ASA website. I will settle for nothing less than that. Those terms as they are, require a huge amount of industry advocacy on behalf of writers. You know, they're not great for writers, but they are what they are. Mm-hmm. And that's the industry practice. I won't accept less than that, but for my first publishing contract I did. Mm-hmm. And I spent years with this particular small publisher trying to navigate that relationship and. In retrospect, and I've said this before in Emily Maguire's fabulous class, which I think now Ashley runs the year of the novel, that I, in retrospect, felt better off with no publisher than a bad publisher. But with my first novel that was very hard to understand and very hard to see.
Natasha Rai:And it's, it's also very hard to have confidence in that statement when you are desperate to have your first novel out in the world.
Shankari Chandran:100%. There is nothing like the desperation of that, of wanting, yearning for that first novel to be published.
Natasha Rai:Exactly.
Shankari Chandran:So after that novel went to Sri Lanka was published there, I wrote The Barrier, but I, I'd finished The Barrier and at some point in the sort of querying process of. Of Song of the Sun God and I was getting this feedback, uh, about how the novel wouldn't sell in Australia. And so I took The Barrier, which was almost completed, and I changed the protagonist from a brown, south Asian, um, sort of secret agent, got a thing for secret agents.
Natasha Rai:You do
Shankari Chandran:And, and I changed them from brown to white and that novel found an Australian publisher quite quickly and that novel went out into the world. And again, it's interesting what you learn in retrospect or from that experience, but I was only need, I was really only at that early learning stage of how does one build a brand? I. What is social media? Um, you know, where do I need to show up at? Mm. How do I sell myself?
Natasha Rai:Yeah. All the building blocks of longevity as well.
Shankari Chandran:Exactly. And, but as a writer, I'm, you know, deeply introverted. I, by nature would happily stay in my pajamas in my room all day, just writing books and occasionally throwing food at the children.
Natasha Rai:And I think your, um, out of office even says that I'm in my pajamas.
Shankari Chandran:Yes, yes, it does. Don't disturb me.
Natasha Rai:Exactly.
Shankari Chandran:Um, so I take my writing very seriously and I just, you know, had to learn how to. See that sort of business development side for what it is, it's business development and you have to do it to secure the longevity of your career, or at least to assist the longevity of your career.
Natasha Rai:So on the way, as you were learning these lessons, were you learning them through that kind of direct experience? Or at that point had you started to cultivate a community or an agent or, yeah.
Shankari Chandran:Um. I put everything really, I was very fortunate. I had, I had an agent with me, um, from the time that I finished Song of the. I was so fortunate to become a member of writing New South Wales. I loved their work enough to eventually join their board. Um, but at the time I was an emerging writer, not even emerging, and I benefited enormously, not just from their courses, but from the community that they have at, at Callan Park, at the, the actual location of writing New South Wales. Mm-hmm. Writing is very solitary and literary fiction I think is particularly solitary and we're not writers of literary fiction are probably even more. Solitary than the average writer. Whereas the crime writers, for example, are just, they seem to be partying hard. They're always together, they're always going on writing retreats together. It's, it's just a thing, right? Whereas for me, I'm like, the last thing I want is to be on a retreat with anybody. Um, the, and so I look at their sort of Instagram sites. Uh, with confusion and, um, and excitement for them because they're clearly so excited by each other. Um, but we still, as literary fiction writers. Need a, a community, need people, need friends. Because I found it was only other writers that understood the sheer agony of what I was going through. Yeah. And the insecurity of it. The soul destroying self-esteem, crushing reality of reject after rejection. The way that the rest of the world views your writing? It is and has been for many years. My work, I know, has been regarded as a hobby. You know, Shankari's got this quirky little hobby. Um, it's the, the, the definition of career. Work in our contemporary society and perhaps in all societies, is largely ascribed to those activities that generate an income. Writing does not generate an income for a very long time, and when it does, most writers, even the successful ones, you know, considered commercially successful or awarded ones, don't make enough to. It is, it takes a very long time for the, the task, the activity of writing to be reflected back to you as work, and that's hard to carry. You know, I come from a family and a community where work is everything. You are really valued for your work ethic and your capacity to work and your and output, and your ability to take care of your family writing. Not understood and does not meet many of those KPIs.
Natasha Rai:No, it doesn't.
Shankari Chandran:Um, and yet it is this thing that is so profoundly, deeply, intrinsically important to me. It's the thing by which I define myself really, or even if it's not necessarily a definition that feels quite grandiose. It's the thing that gives me such purpose and joy and it's not understood. Really, except for other writers. And so that writing community and being able to say, does this look right to you? Does this agreement look right to you? What should I be doing? You are going to that festival. Should I be going to that festival? And the writing community is such a beautiful community.
Natasha Rai:It really is.
Shankari Chandran:We help each other. Mm-hmm. You know, we, we recommend each other's books. We read each other's drafts. We get each other invited to things. We social media, the shit out of each other because we, we know that we rise together. It isn't a, um, you know, it's a finite pie as such.
Natasha Rai:Exactly.'cause the more that we help come in and get that recognition, the more space there is. Yes. The more and more stories we can tell.
Shankari Chandran:Yeah, we're breaking and expanding those horizons together and that's really, really rewarding. I love, my favorite part of a writer's festival is the green room. Um, I mean, I just sort of show up just for the green room and then, and then leave, but it's probably unethical. Um, so yes. So it's a wonderful community.
Natasha Rai:Yes.
Shankari Chandran:And by making lots mistakes the other way.
Natasha Rai:And also the important thing about making mistakes is they don't have to be catastrophic.'cause you know, a lot of emerging writers, like even I remember, it wasn't that long ago that I was terrified that if I submit to a publisher or an agent and the, it's not ready, or I just get one shot and that's it, I've ruined it forever. And that's not actually true. Unless you're, unless you're, you know, you're really mean to them or you are whatever. Like if you're behaving badly, that's different. But if you're just having a, a go or you're trying, then nothing is really that catastrophic that you can do. That means the door is shut forever. Right?
Shankari Chandran:Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think there's, so, particularly now, it's been, I've been writing since, um, 2012 when I started Song of the Sun God in 2012. And my career is very different from other people's. I, I look at the sort of debut bestseller with a combination of, um, admiration and envy because it's a, a much faster track to a better place. And at the same time, that's not been my journey. My journey is my journey. And it's taken 13 years. I started writing my first novel exactly in April, 2012. It's April, 2025 now.
Natasha Rai:Yeah.
Shankari Chandran:So that is 13 years of writing. Um, and it's been hard and, and great.
Gisela Ervin-Ward:Hi, I'm Gisela Ervin-Ward and my upper middle grade novel, True South, published by Midnight Sun Publishing is out now. It's not every day you crash your boat into a house. As Nell South Nicholas hung over the gun over her sailboat to inspect the damage. She wondered why that day had to be today when Nell crashes a sailboat into a submerged house in the reservoir, the last thing she expects to find is treasure and a secret that could change everything. 12-year-old Nell lives on a farm in Central Victoria where two things are certain. Sailing is a favorite thing in the world, and the Souths and the Wilsons absolutely do not get along. So in the Sunken House, turns out to be Nell's family's old home, and it might have something to do with the missing family heirlooms that both the Souths and the Wilsons want. The only person who can help solve the mystery is Charlie Wilson, aka the enemy and things get complicated fast. As Nell and Charlie warily team up, dig into the past and hunt for the missing heirlooms, old and new secrets threatened to break their fragile alliance. Friendships get tested, family history gets messy, and Nell starts wondering if being a South really means what she thought it did. Can two girls caught in the middle of a feud change the story or the adults ensure that they end up repeating it? With plenty of the type of action that's part of rural kids' lives. True South explores themes of coming to terms with the past young teenagers navigating friendship changes for the first time. Sailing, living in rural Australia, and children's connection to family and landscape. Great. For nine or 13 year olds. True South by Gisela Ervin-Ward is out now.
Natasha Rai:So then you, we were up to The Barrier and you said, you mentioned earlier that it. Didn't sell well particularly well? No. Okay.
Shankari Chandran:It did not, it was optioned for television. Um, they had a few cracks at pitching it the producers and then COVID hit and so then plague dramas, unless you were rewatching contagion with Matt Damon Plague dramas were sort of, you know, put on pause, which was fine, but I. Then wrote I in the end, you know, as we're sort of trucking along, I wrote Unfinished Business. Mm-hmm. That, um, did not get very far with publishers because of the sales of The Barrier. At that point, I really should have stopped writing professionally, I suppose I.
Natasha Rai:Well, I'm glad you didn't.
Shankari Chandran:Sensible. Had I been more sensible? Um, but I did think that my writing, my publishing career was over. I did think that for me, publishing was probably done and that I would have to come to terms with that. And so I had a sense of grief around trying to make myself let go of this dream. Career, not so much the dream of writing because you'll always write, I will always write, but the dream of a career of being a published author. And so then I thought, well, I'll, I'll write the book. I've always. Wanted to write. I'd been toying with this idea of a book in a nursing home where I used to go visit my grandmother. Um, and my beautiful was still alive actually, when I was writing it. I started it in 2019. I thought I would write something a bit more whimsical, and then I just kept getting pulled back to the idea of exploring race. Yeah. And I figured no one's going to publish this novel. Just my dad, my sister-in-law, and my cousins will read it. Therefore I can write freely and I can actually write about race in the way that I think and feel and have, and have observed race. Um, and so I wrote Chai Time at Cinnamon Gardens, and that was a really, that was a, a career changing novel for me.
Natasha Rai:Yeah.
Shankari Chandran:Um, and you know, Tash, every novel that I've written, so by that, that was actually my fourth manuscript.
Natasha Rai:Mm.
Shankari Chandran:Manuscript two, three, and four I. When I finished writing them, I would lean into the manuscript. Please, please. That brings Song of the Sun God Home. Because what I really wanted in my heart was for this first novel that was about our history and our culture and our war and our people. I wanted that novel published in my home, Australia. Mm. So I sent Chai Time into the world with the same gentle prayer.
Natasha Rai:Yeah.
Shankari Chandran:And Robert Watkins at Ultimo picked it up, um, within a month of it being queried. And he has been a dream to work with. And together we have since published Chai time at Cinnamon Gardens. He then republished, he bought the rights to Song of the Sun God and Republished Song of the Sun God. He published Unfinished Business before that, obviously Safe Haven. Um, and I will republish The Barrier with him when I have the time and energy mm-hmm. To change my protagonist from white back to brown.
Natasha Rai:Okay. And probably listeners, and just for listeners who are unaware of how big, how significant Chai Time at Cinnamon Gardens has been for you, it won the Miles Franklin Award in 2023, and that was huge and congratulations again. That must have been, and it brought Song of the Sun God, home, as you say. Mm-hmm. It must have, I imagine, just opened so many new opportunities for you. Is that what it felt like?
Shankari Chandran:Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It, it definitely felt like that and still feels like that. I still feel so grateful to that novel, um, and to the path that it's taken in the way that it has then opened up the rest of my career or, or opened up a career for me.
Natasha Rai:Mm.
Shankari Chandran:Um, and so. Chai Time at Cinnamon Gardens has been optioned for television. We're working on the adaptation with Shakthidharan, um, and Mithila Gupta and Aquarius Films. Shakthidharan wrote Jungle and the Sea.
Natasha Rai:Yes. I'm a huge fan of his as, as I'm of Mithila Gupta too.
Shankari Chandran:Yes, yes, yes. I too, I'm a big fan of both. Nearly fell off my chair when they were the suggested creatives. Um. And so we're working on that together. And Shakthi is lead writer. Mithila is story producer. Amazing. And it's been a really great experience so far. Aquarius Films has been beautiful to work with and I think it will, you know, these things just take their own time. So that's, that's that project. And then obviously, um, well, not obviously, but Unfinished Business is also being adapted for television with Photo Play. And the, the, the profile on Chai Time at Cinnamon Gardens has this halo effect on my other novels and my other potential adaptations. And so there has been again. A much bigger spotlight on the potential TV adaptation of Unfinished Business and a very significant and helpful amount of interest in it.
Natasha Rai:And you know, Shankari, it just goes to show, and I'm not talking about, you know, if you write whatever you want, you'll necessarily win an award or open doors like that. But what that speaks to me is in that moment of that kind of that rollercoaster where you're right at the bottom and you thought, I'm done with this career, but I'm going to keep riding. In a way it frees you to write the story that was felt true at the time, and it was spoke to you in a very different way because. Sometimes writers when they're trying to get published might follow. It's not a trap, but they might follow a part that they feel they have to write in a certain way or for a certain audience as opposed to writing for themselves. And actually, I. Writing for yourself brings you the greatest pleasure, firstly and maybe more likely to find readers who it resonates with because you're writing from a greater place of truth.
Shankari Chandran:I think that's exactly right. I do. I think there's a lot of noise when you are writing. There can be, and there can be a lot of external pressure and a lot of worse internal pressure, and it's easy to forget. The joy of just putting one word down in front of another and pushing yourself to produce something that you are really proud of. That's the best that it can be, and the best that you can be. Um, and to sort of still your mind and all those voices for long enough to, to hear and see the truth and, and give words to that.
Natasha Rai:Mm-hmm. Amazing. And, and so for you, Shankari, like once Chai Time was out in the world and it was starting to get all this recognition, were you able to write, like, is that when you wrote Safe Haven or
Shankari Chandran:Yes. Yeah. Yes. So this is why I think with my, with my last three novels, Unfinished Business, then going back Safe Haven and then going back Chai Time, I think there is a mistake and belief that I am prolific and that I am very fast. I'm not. I wrote Chai Time at Cinnamon Gardens and submitted it in, um, at the end of 2020. Mm-hmm. So, and it came out some 13 months later. Okay. Mm-hmm. So mm-hmm. Came out at the beginning of 2022. It won the Miles Franklin 18 months later. Yeah. In that 18 months, I had produced. A crappy first draft of Safe Haven. So by the time everyone just said, who is this and what's this book about? Because 18 months of Chai Time being out in the world, and it had actually done really well in terms of sales and readership, but it's nothing compared to what the Miles Franklin did for it. Mm-hmm. So it looked like a new book to many people. It wasn't a new book, but it looked like a new book. Yeah. Because of the way the award cycle works and then the way the publicity works. And then some, what is it? Nine months after Chai Time wins, Safe Haven comes out, but that book had already been well on its way in the two years before its publication. Then Chai, then Safe Haven comes out, and then seven months later unfinished Business comes out.
Natasha Rai:Yes. So this is what I wanted to come written for 2017. So this is the bit I wanted to come back to. Was there a, like, was that a deliberate kind of choice that Ultimo and you made together?
Shankari Chandran:No. So the way that that worked was that when Robert and I, um, when Robert and I first started dating, um. Bought, um, the rights to Unfinished Business, but the focus was on getting Chai Time at Cinnamon Gardens out. I had talked to him about a literary novel I was interested in writing, which later became Safe Haven. Unfinished Business just sort of sat there in a, in a queue. And I think quite rightly, publishers want to see how your work goes before they send three books out into the world in one go. Right? So, um. There would've been absolutely an important element of that. And in the meantime, Audible had also bought the content of Unfinished Business as an Audible original. And what that means is, which I was new to it, is writers are writing content for Audible as audible originals, which means that they go straight to audio. They appear as audio first. And then Audible owned by Amazon sets the terms of that and the terms will be,
Natasha Rai:oh, I did not know that.
Shankari Chandran:Yeah, and the terms will be that you are allowed to publish that book if you have held back your publishing rights, which I had. You are allowed to publish that book. So six months after the audio comes out. So the audible comes out first as an original because it hasn't been seen anywhere before. So it's called an original.
Natasha Rai:Mm-hmm.
Shankari Chandran:And then at least six months must pass and you can bring it out in book form. And so just the way that that cadence worked is what you are seeing now.
Natasha Rai:Ah, I see. Got it. Yeah. Yeah.
Shankari Chandran:So, so Unfinished Business came out in February. Of 2024. Sorry. Yes, 2024. So at one point it looked like I'd released two books within two months of each other. I was like, please, everyone, calm down. This book has been out for eight years on my laptop. Yeah, this other book took two years at least to, to write. Um, and I loved working with Audible, the commissioning editor there Radhiya Chowdrey. Fabulous commissioning editor, and she was the one who really supported me with Unfinished Business to take the protagonist. Remember that was my third manuscript written after the Barrier.
Natasha Rai:That's right. Yes.
Shankari Chandran:Originally I wrote her as a white woman. Mm-hmm. Rathi, or Radhiya Chowdrey from Audible. When she read the content, she said, I love it. I can't help but feel that your protagonist is actually a brown woman trapped in a white body.
Natasha Rai:Very perceptive.
Shankari Chandran:Very perceptive, and, and just so like a real kind of case study for why you want to have diverse voices at the table, making curatorial and commissioning decisions why you want diverse voices in places of power. And that was a wonderful partnership and. Changed. Um, Ellie really back to who she was intended to be all along, and it just works so much more beautifully as.
Natasha Rai:Oh, that's so wonderful. And you know, uh, since winning the Miles Franklin has it also then had an impact on, as in that overseas distribution as well?
Shankari Chandran:Has that? Not yet. Not yet. So this is really interesting. Tash, I would've hoped for, um, the Miles Franklin to open the door to international publication of that book at least. Um. But it has had a limited run, a limited publication in the UK through an imprint, or in fact through Ultimo Press UK. Um, and what we are hoping for though is a wider distribution in the UK and um, an American publication. It has been translated into Finnish. It's being, yes, I've had great reviews from Finland. It's being translated into Arabic, um, that has not been completed yet. It's currently being translated into Chinese. And I've met my beautiful Chinese translator who works at the University of Western Sydney, Jing Han, amazing woman. And so that will take as long as it takes, I guess, to, to translate and to publish in China. But it has not yet had an American or a a, a proper UK deal. Um, so I'm hoping with my next novel that maybe that will make its way into.
Natasha Rai:How surprising. Finnish.
Shankari Chandran:Yes. Finish. Yeah, I know. I mean, it makes me laugh because all the sort of academics in my family are like, yes, that makes total sense because the Tamil language is actually connected to the pheno Hungarian language. Like okay. Um, that's exactly why the Fins want to
Natasha Rai:Exactly.
Shankari Chandran:Read the story. Um, and you mentioned Shankari earlier about diverse voices. I imagine just like I'm starting to get asked, you get asked a lot about diversity, the importance of amplifying voices, um, and almost sometimes being put up as a spokesperson. Hmm.
Natasha Rai:How do you cope, manage, navigate that? Do you like getting asked that question?
Shankari Chandran:Um, I don't like it anymore. I was initially okay about being asked that question because it's a legitimate question and it's an important question. The question exists because a problem exists. And those perhaps best place to answer it are those with lived experience of the challenges of publishing, uh, in know a white dominant environment. So I understand the need for the question and the importance of the answer and the importance of addressing the problem. And the problem is plural, interconnected, as they are, are being addressed slowly but surely, in particular because. Of publishers like Robert Watkins who are willing to publish and who recognize the enormous quality of that literature. Not just the value of diversity, but the fact that the literature is incredibly good, um, and that a cultural landscape or a literary landscape that reflects our cultural landscape makes sense. Um, it also is changing because writers from non-white backgrounds are continuing to write despite the setbacks that they receive that are different, and I would suggest greater than many of the setbacks that white writers experience, which is not to say that they do not experience setbacks. Um, and I do think those a really important. Of class and socioeconomic background and privilege around writing. So I can afford to change my corporate career to give myself time to write, and that is an economic privilege afforded to me by generations of family and to my own struggle and education and employment. That is not something that everyone has. So I think when we talk about diversity, we need to continue to talk about diversity. We need to continue to though also talk about the ways in which the lack of diversity exists or presents itself. It's not just color or gender.
Natasha Rai:Yeah, I agree.
Shankari Chandran:It's economics. It's the loss of things. Um, I think we also, I know what it is about that question. Part of me. Is unwilling to concede the premise because diversity suggests, um, that we are bringing difference into something that's fundamentally homogenous. And I see that we are, I see that there is a dominant narrative and a dominant group. I also think that. My lived experience, my norms, what I write about, what I live, what I imagine my imagination is my norm and it's my normal. And so when I go to my friend as a child, my friend Kate Kelly's house, and I'm presented with a steak, three vegetables and a knife and fork, like, wow, you guys are so diverse because that is different.
Natasha Rai:Yeah.
Shankari Chandran:To my experience and how we conceive of the world is different. So not just how we eat or what we eat. So I think there's something even in the question that I would love to unpack. Um, not right now on your podcast, but you've asked me how do I deal with the questions. I answer them, I answer them honestly, and I answer them sincerely. I understand where they come from. It's a heavy weight to carry to feel that I am. Um. I mean, there's a, there is actually a growing group of writers of color massively quickly growing, and they're all really articulate and eloquent on these issues and many more issues, right? Writers from. Different backgrounds should not, should not only be asked about their background, they should be asked about, you know, their view on affordable housing. Um, so I think thankfully there is a growing body and I am less of the representative than I used to have to be.
Natasha Rai:Mm-hmm.
Shankari Chandran:Um, I never really accepted I that mantle comfortably. Not just because I'm introverted, but because I recognize my own privilege and I don't want to be. Shunted into a place where people are asking me questions about an experience that is actually much broader and deeper and nuanced than what I can speak to because I can only speak to what I've lived.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. And what you know. Exactly. And what I know. Yes. Yeah. Um, and I think just on that point as well, the more stories that we have that are told, we're also reaching more readers because even. Our lives, the people around us have changed even in the last 10, 15, 20 years. Mm-hmm. So the readership is changing too. And even readers who have traditionally read one type or another type or have fa favorite writers, they are hungry for new stories and new voices. Like, it's not just some idea of, well, here is this other, other group of people who might be interested. It's like everyone. Mm-hmm. A lot of people are interested. Both established and the ones who haven't yet had access.
Shankari Chandran:Yeah, and there's a whole conversation on that to be had separately about whether the readership, I think the readership is changing because. The readership of the world is diversifying itself, it's migration. Global migration necessarily means the markets that once looked a particular way now look different.
Natasha Rai:Hmm.
Shankari Chandran:At the same time, I think intelligent, curious people have always sought to read a range of literature, and there is a, you know, an argument to be made that the curators of culture were the ones that didn't actually get that.
Natasha Rai:Yeah.
Shankari Chandran:Yeah,
Natasha Rai:I hear you. Um, so I'm a little bit shocked that we are nearly out of time because I'm having such a great time talking to you.
Shankari Chandran:No, this is why we should go out for a drink, not a podcast.
Natasha Rai:I agree. Let's make that happen. Um, but just as a final question, given as you said that, you know, when you looked at your calendar and it, it's, it's 13 years of. Writing practice. What have you learned, or from everything you've learned, everything you've experienced along the way, do you have any advice or top tips for emerging writers now?
Shankari Chandran:I would say first and foremost, just keep writing. Keep your pipeline and body of work going. Don't stop. Uh, and I would also say brace yourself.'cause it is challenging and it doesn't, I know that you'll, they'll know that it's not coming easily after their first sort of 10 rejections. You, you get the sense it's not gonna come easily, right?
Natasha Rai:Mm-hmm.
Shankari Chandran:And I don't mean this to sound motherhood and apple pie, but I do mean it sincerely. It isn't easy, but it is worth it. My advice would be just keep writing, keep going. Don't give up. Don't listen to the noise. Listen to yourself. Sit down in front of the blank page and keep going.
Natasha Rai:Great advice. Thank you.
Shankari Chandran:Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity to talk to you.
Tina Strachan:Thank you for listening to the Book Deal podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the pod so you can receive updates as soon as our new eps drop. To keep up to date with what the pod is doing, you can also find us on Instagram.