The Book Deal

Writerly breakthroughs and author disappointment

• Tina Strachan

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In this episode of the Book Deal podcast, hosts Tina Strachan and Madeleine Cleary share a candid and engaging discussion about their current writing projects and experiences. Tina talks about her recent book release, 'Neeka and the Storm,' and the whirlwind of emotions she felt around its launch. Meanwhile, Madeleine opens up about her progress on her second book, the challenges of writing a crime narrative, and her breakthrough in plotting. The episode also delves into the broader writing community, touching on the feelings of disappointment many authors face around royalty statements, rejections, and the competitive nature of the industry. Special references are made to encouraging posts by author Kylie Orr and the importance of community and perseverance. The hosts conclude with book recommendations and a note on the importance of enjoying the writing process.

00:00 Welcome to the Book Deal Podcast
00:43 Catching Up on a Saturday Night
02:11 Book Release Excitement
06:58 Writing Challenges and Progress
18:11 Exploring Different Writing Perspectives
20:41 Reader Preferences and Writing Styles
21:41 End of Financial Year Reflections
22:50 Understanding Author Royalties
23:52 Facing Disappointments in Publishing
27:24 The Importance of Community and Persistence
31:22 Balancing Writing with Realistic Expectations
42:54 Current Reads and Recommendations

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Tina Strachan children's book author
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Madeleine Cleary | Author

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Tina Strachan:

This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories, the authors behind your favorite books. No matter what stage of writing you are at, we've got you covered. I'm Tina Strachan. And I'm Madeleine Cleary. And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors one deal at a time.

Madeleine Cleary:

The book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.

Tina:

Good evening, Madeleine. How are you going? I love that we're catching up on a Saturday night again, but we've swapped. Mm-hmm. You have the glass of red in hand this time, and I have a cup of tea. Not kocha, but a cup of tea. See, I'm not that boring, but I am still in my pajamas though, which is pretty good.

Madeleine:

I mean, you look fantastic. I was just saying when you came on, so you are actually, do you wanna describe your current situation? Sure, yes. I'm sitting in the passenger car, passenger car, passenger seat. I've only had one glass of wine, I promise, in the passenger seat of our car because we're camping in away, we're away in our caravan at the moment, school holidays. And um, yeah, so I've got a great setup with the phone, um, perch on top of the dashboard and a camping light. It's a bit cool outside. So I've got my son's audio on my. My legs and my boots on. I'm overlooking the beautiful lake, actually. So it's really nice. It actually kind of looks like horror. Horror, like story vibes outside of, oh God.

Tina:

You're always thinking storylines, aren't you? You know? It kind of does, doesn't it?

Madeleine:

Yeah. I'm pretty scared for you. Okay. It's very dark. I'll just look. Hang on. I'll just lock the door. Please do. But um, I was just saying like, Tina's like, oh yeah, I'm in my pajamas. Da da. She has the most perfect glow about her right now. Like the camping light is doing really nice things. So I think

Tina:

I should just do

Madeleine:

this

Tina:

for all our, um, I reckon podcast maybe.

Madeleine:

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. You look at, and also I'm, I'm assuming as well, you've got a very nice glow because you're basking in book two release. Glow as well.

Tina:

I know. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Uh, Neeka in the storm. So book two of the Wild Zoo series came out just this week, just a few days ago, which is, um, yeah, really exciting. Very exciting. And I wanna,

Madeleine:

I wanna actually share with the listeners, um, our, uh, WhatsApp chat, um, the morning that RA and the missing storm. Missing storm. I just combined your book one and. Neeka and the storm came out, I think it was, I was pretty early actually. I was awake early for me. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It was like six 30. Mm-hmm. And I was like, oh, Tina will be awake. And I messaged you like Happy Pub Day. Like just something random. And you replied, I forgot. Okay.

Tina:

I know that sounds terrible, but in my defense it was. Um, I had already been up for like two and a half, two hours. Madeleine, of course you have been. I'd got, I, I'd processed the emotions. No, but at that point when you had messaged me, I was on the treadmill. I was just getting some steps in before our drive away and, um. Sorry, you're looking and

Madeleine:

peering outside the window. Oh my god. I know. I, no, the lights

Tina:

on the car were flashing and I, I was wondering if I was gonna set the alarm off. Um, oh crap. I just,

Madeleine:

my heart actually just stopped for you. Then I'm like, are you about to be murdered?

Tina:

I am literally in between two caravans and there's like, it's the car next door. It's fine. I'm not gonna be murdered. If we do, it's live on air, so we'll have a recording of it. We could find who did it, and then you can write a book about it.

Madeleine:

Oh my God. This a great plot actually to a novel live on podcast. Yes. Oh my gosh. No one's steal that. I'm gonna copyright that.

Tina:

Okay. No. Okay. Okay. You forgot. So, my defense, I was up, I was, I, you know, had processed the thing and we had such a busy day. Mm. And of course I knew it. Of course I knew it was that day. And, you know, I'd spoken about a thousand times and the night before. Um, but I think because we were getting up and were getting out of the house,'cause, you know, it was very different this time. You know, I, book one, I had I think two weeks off or a week off of work before it came out. So I had all this time to sort of. In the glow of book release, whereas this time I worked, worked up until the day before, um, kids were on school holidays. So it's, it was hectic and yeah, just a lot of life, was um, sort of creeping in and yeah, I was on the treadmill ready to go. And it was just funny'cause when you had, uh, when you did text me, I think it was just. I really felt like, oh, this is so different to book one, where I, I certainly had the day, um, all to myself and to sort of just really spend on it, but you know what I think it is. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because the, obviously the excitement is still absolutely there and just. Um, it is not lost on me, like the achievement of having another book, of course out. It's, I think with your first book, you go from zero, literally to a hundred overnight. Yeah. So you go from zero, you're not a, you're not a published author. And then the next day you're a published author and messages are coming in and Instagram's coming in and people are posting and reposting and sharing. It's the first time any, you see like your book. From someone else on Instagram, say so. So maybe one of the, um, books grammars, uh, have done a review or one of your friends has seen it in the shop and they've posted it. And I think it's that first time that you ever see anything and it's all just, it literally goes from zero to a hundred.

Madeleine:

It's almost like the, the, A switch has been turned on in a dark room. Yes. And it's bright a hundred percent. And you are very visible. All the time. Yes.

Tina:

Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. And it's a lot, and it's really busy. And then you're getting used to just all those things and, and how to navigate that. And so, and because it's only been like six months since Yes. You know, Neeka and the missing key came out and now book two is out. It felt like, you know, pro, it definitely wanes from that a hundred percent to like, you know, maybe 50 at times to like back up it's mood light. It's a dim, dim mood light. It's, it's dimmed and then it kind of flickers and then it gets, and then it just starts getting. Um, brighter and brighter I think because you're already booking in events for other things. Not even just for a book launch, but you know, because you now have published also a book out and another one coming out. Then you know, people asking to do. So you, you're very much still in the, the wheels are still turning on it, I think. Mm-hmm. So by the time this happened, it was like, I was already sitting at like 80% and so when book two came out, it was back up at a hundred percent. Yeah. But, but it just wasn't that big leap.

Madeleine:

Yep. That makes sense. Which is nice. Because that's probably pretty And first tube because unsustainable. Do you think as well, because you are writing a series and it's book two, that it, it's that con continuation as well? Yes, yes. Less like startling because it's not like you're writing in a different genre or something completely brand new that you have to really, you know,'cause you've got now people who are interested at readership know Tina and Neeka and associate the two of you together.

Tina:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, they're coming, you know? Mm-hmm. If you, when you have another book that you haven't yet maybe signed or have a date for, um, it's, there's still lots of unknowns. I think so. Or a lot of time in between a year or two years. Yeah. I think it had, yeah, you'd still have that big leap

Madeleine:

because it's actually, I just, I just realized it's actually only like five months.

Tina:

Yeah.

Madeleine:

Between missing key and storm. Yeah, that's actually, that's actually not that long. Um, have you seen Neeka in the storm yet? In a bookshop?

Tina:

I have not.

Madeleine:

I have not. I, I figured you wouldn't have because you've literally been away camping since.

Tina:

Yeah. And we're somewhere that doesn't have a lot of. We're not very close to bookstores, so, and also I've got the kids with me and they're so sick of being dragged to bookstores. They're like, we've done that, mom. We've seen your book. Yeah. Done. We don't need to see it again. You're done. Yeah.

Madeleine:

One and done. That's it. Yeah,

Tina:

yeah, yeah. That's it. Whatever. Get over it. Mom. Stop talking about books all the time.

Madeleine:

Have, have they read it yet? No. Nope. So it is your first, so wait, when do you get, when do you get back home?

Tina:

Um, oh. In a couple days. Okay. So yeah, I will Is your

Madeleine:

first mission to go and see it and find it?

Tina:

Yeah, I think I, I think I'll, I'll go out and go for a little wander and, and see if I can see it. Yeah, that'll be nice. That'll be

Madeleine:

very exciting. And your I event is on the weekend, is it next week? And,

Tina:

um, no. I have two, uh, two library author talks for kids, um, gold Coast libraries. And then I have a, uh, workshop quick. Brown fox. That's, so by the time that's this airs, it'll probably be, um, they'll probably be over. Mm-hmm. But then I also do have, um, a book launch at Quick Brown Fox, which is also the same, um, time and date as their third birthday celebration. So, um, anybody in the Brisbane area, make sure you get on, get in touch with Quick Brown Fox, uh, about their third birthday because that's coming up soon.

Madeleine:

Oh, that sounds lovely. Yeah, they're a beautiful books. Wine or wine or he kind of party. Oh.

Tina:

Oh. Um, I don't, I know there's gonna be Cake. Cake Party. I know that. Yeah. Cake party. That sounds amazing. Yeah. But what about you, Madeleine? Are you also glowing as always? What's happening?

Madeleine:

Oh, well, I mean, yeah, it feels like lots of. Lots of things have been happening, but also not a lot. But the really exciting thing, last week I went to Emma Pagan's launch of her day novel when Sleeping Women Wake, um, which was at Amplify Bookstore in Melbourne, which is an amazing bookshop, which is dedicated to promoting diverse voices. So it's this beautiful bookstore and Emma has become a friend. Um, she. Helped me launch the Butterfly women in Canberra. And so, so she's from Canberra, so it was awesome to be able to be there. And so she was in conversation with our friend of a podcast

Tina:

mm-hmm.

Madeleine:

Parker. Mm-hmm. Uh, and they were both brilliant, so I could have, um, sat and listened to them chat all night. So it was so fun, and I've read. Emma's book and it is wonderful. So I do highly recommend it if you're a fan of historical fiction or just a fan of just interesting stories, it's set in Hong Kong, in in World War ii. It's, um, set in Hong Kong during the Japanese occupation. So it's a brilliant book. So I'm really excited to see. Um, I was really excited to see that one come out into the world, so that was really fun. Um, and then the other thing I suppose is a progress update for. Um, drafting of book two. Yeah.

Tina:

So you're gonna get, are you gonna, uh, check in and give us the stats? Yes. Where are you at?

Madeleine:

I couldn't remember where I was at last Fortnite, so I went and Google, like, I didn't Google it, but I searched in our archive, um, because we can search the, the terms and I was at 25,000 wa at Fortnite go. So. Awesome. I'm pleased to tell you Tina, that as of today I'm up 37,000, so Oh wow. Awesome. Awesome spot to be in. But it's getting harder.

Tina:

Is it? Is it because, okay. Do you feel like you've come to the end of that natural act one now, and now you're getting into that middle, um, act two kind of thing? And that is the struggle, isn't it? That's the, the bit that you sort of wanna run through in a way to get to your Act three, isn't it? Because that gets super exciting again, so it's that middle, it's that. We never quite worked it as it soggy or saggy, middle, soggy

Madeleine:

or soggy, middle. Both. Same. It's it. Do you know, and I've been dying to tell you this, and I thought I'd save it for the podcast because I feel like you're gonna be so pleased. Oh,

Tina:

please tell me.

Madeleine:

So today, um, I was writing, I think because I'm, it's a bit more, this book is probably a little bit more crime. Focused, maybe there's a strong crime narrative. Um, and as I'm writing, so I'm up to, yeah, that sort of saggy middle, soggy middle, and to to date, I had just been sort of revealing slowly like who the murderer is. As I go through, and then I discovered this huge gaping plot hole, um, about 10,000 words above. Um, and so I was like, oh, no, I've gotta go fix that. So I went and fixed that, deleted words, my work account went down. And then as I'm writing it, I just realized, I'm like, oh, I'm writing a crime book and I have no red herrings. Like I'm just revealing the murderer slowly. Mm, because I'm a pants and I don't plot anything. Mm. And I'm trying to understand what, who the murderer is. Mm-hmm. And, and I'm just slowly unveiling it to me and Yeah. Yeah. There's no one, there's no one else. So I had a whole cast of characters, so I'm like, oh, I'll do some red herrings. But I was like, oh, I'll invent new characters. I'm like, no, no, no. I have these existing characters I can. Transform this, right? So I'm, I'm sitting there outside of my deck and my brain is exploding because I'm like, holy crap. I, it's everything. The plot, the story, the characters are all just in my head. Nothing is written down. And I said, I was like, okay, what would Tina do? And Tina would do, would do a. She would plot it out and she would do a mind map or something. So I got a big sheet of paper. This is literally today. I sat on the floor of my house and I wrote out every character's name, and then I drew links between each of them to work out. And because when you're writing these like, like from a crime perspective, you have to also think about. People know different parts of the story and parts of the information, and so yeah, I've got this huge map now that I drew and I was able to create all these connections between people and that's all my red herrings.

Tina:

That's so good.

Madeleine:

And I sorted it out.

Tina:

Yeah. Did you feel like it just flowed for you once you started writing it and even maybe opened up? New ideas. New ideas, or brought forward new ideas that you sort of hadn't really, I mean, obviously it brought forward your, your red herrings.

Madeleine:

So that's huge. It created everything for me. Like the whole, basically the next it it, it's not like I've plotted it out, it's just that I've helped understand, um, who yeah knows who and how, and. Who's hiding this piece and who's got a secret and who's hiding something, and yeah.

Tina:

And, and that's really important. Yes. Obviously that story

Madeleine:

and Yeah. Yeah.

Tina:

Do so did you know who the killer was before? Always.

Madeleine:

I suspected I have, I had a person in mind. Yeah. And so I was like, Ooh, I think it's gonna be this person. But, um, but I didn't know how. The The main character would suspect other people.

Tina:

Yeah. Like

Madeleine:

why they would have any interest in this. I just was like, oh, I think it should be this person. But I didn't know why, but now I know why, and that's really helpful. So I'm gonna start writing again tomorrow with all this in mind.

Tina:

Yeah.

Madeleine:

I probably will have to go back and layer things. Yeah. But I'm gonna just keep moving forward and I'll do that later.

Tina:

Yeah, and it

Madeleine:

could

Tina:

change. It could still change, you know, because you won't know until you write it, but at least it's kind of clear now and you're not sort of wasting time by potentially keeping on writing and and going, oh, I didn't create that link, or I missed that link. Or I could have really included that there. Yes, you've got that now. And you know what my other theory is on that is you were using pen and paper. I just have this, I certain that like if you get stuck and honestly it doesn't even matter how messy it is and maybe you can't even read it again, but sometimes I just, I've written pages and pages and pages in notebooks trying to get it to work, like the storyline to work. Like if you do have a plot hole or you, it's a timeline thing. Yes. I just, I dunno what it's about. It, it's. Pretty sure I can find some science to back it up. That it just simulates that creativity or that problem solving or something of pen to paper. So listeners out there, if you're stuck, get pen and paper out and don't worry about how messy it's, just write it down because it's it. Is a connection straight into your creative soul. I'm sure of it. I agree.

Madeleine:

The pen and paper thing helped and it getting off my laptop'cause I couldn't space it the way I wanted, like make it very express. Mm-hmm. But pen and paper allows you to be really? Yeah. And you

Tina:

can like circle,

Madeleine:

you can underline Yes. You can like

Tina:

do like go over it a thousand times and just like cross it out. Yes. But

Madeleine:

when

Tina:

it's in like a Word document or something, it just gets super messy.

Madeleine:

It does. I felt like I did. I did a few messy versions before I did the final and then I hand wrote out the final

Tina:

Yeah.

Madeleine:

As I was, it was just solving everything. So I think,'cause I found this huge pothole this morning, I think that really spurred me to think really carefully about this story. Yeah. And I'm really glad I did that. And it's not, and I can keep my pants vibes because it just is creating. And understanding and awareness at a holistic level. But how it gets to the end, I still don't know.

Tina:

Yeah, and that's good. That's okay. And I think that's it. It's just a tool to use, like flooding and all those sort of, you know, you're just trying to work out the characters and the connections and stuff, and it's all just a tool to get you to the end. And it's smart because. What else are you? You're not just gonna write thousands and thousands of words that aren't gonna get you where you wanna go. That's yes, and back in

Madeleine:

the day, that's what I would've done. Just written thousands and deleted. Then I think this might make me then, for this book, a er.

Tina:

Yeah. Do you think I like that? Yeah, I guess so.

Madeleine:

Congratulations,

Tina:

RO.

Madeleine:

Thank you. I've brought

Tina:

you over to the dark side.

Madeleine:

I'm growing up as a writer. It's very exciting. But I do think that it's important as a, when you're writing crime, to just have this in a it. It's important otherwise, I mean, you can still pan set, but then I think you have to go back.

Tina:

At some point you still have to plot it to even just find your timeline.'cause remember we don't wanna drive in the car for 26 hours without a break. Exactly. You know, we, we need to keep going. We need to check it. Hey, but you know what, something that you might be really proud of me for mm-hmm. Is I have always ridden in first person or Yes. My first person writer. I mean, and when you write kid that they like the kids enjoy first person, it's put themselves into

Madeleine:

the

Tina:

book. Yeah. They can get really close to the character I have just. I've been plotting out, not plotting out, thinking about maybe I call it plotting. I don't know. I've been writing, you know, my brain dump that I do, or I just like, yeah, vomit, drop, like this and that. Yes. Vomiting. Vomiting. Um, I have. I can't, how do I make this work? Like how do I get, tell the story that I wanna tell, but also include, you know, the other characters from their side.

Madeleine:

Mm. I'm like third person,

Tina:

third person limited. Oh. But like different pos uh, for different chapters.

Madeleine:

Oh yeah. So you're doing multi perspective person. Yes. I'm not sure. Yeah. Omni third?

Tina:

No. No. Okay.

Madeleine:

So yeah, I think that's, I'm a fan of omniscient. Third, I get lost.

Tina:

Yeah. No, no, definitely, definitely not for kids, I don't think. I dunno, there's probably some examples. I dunno, I'll have to investigate a little bit more. Only this morning I was like, oh, I think that's my answer. Right? Feels right. Yeah. I, I think so. I haven't even started writing it yet in that, but anyway. I know that you write, um, third person limited too, don't you?

Madeleine:

Yeah, but I think you just depends on the book. And I think though, because you're switching, you'll fine. Like I have switched before and tried, um, first person. Yeah. And it takes a long time for your brain. To switch.

Tina:

Yes, I think it will. You'll find

Madeleine:

yourself writing, you'll, you'll switch in amongst writing. You'll be like, you'll start writing in first person. Yes. And then you stop and change and that's normal. Yeah. But it depends on like sometimes it'll help. Yeah, it, I think every book's different and you've just gotta work out what books. Right. I think historical fiction, the person kind of works. I like to have that sort of hovering narrator. Yeah. Yeah. But I think it also works in first. Um, it just depends on the story I'm writing again in Yeah. Third person present.

Tina:

Mm-hmm. Um,

Madeleine:

tense. And, um, do you know, I actually, there was a review recently of the butterfly women and um, one of the reviewers said, um, normally third person, oh no, sorry. Normally present tense is a no-no for her. And I read. Flack. Like she won't read

Tina:

present

Madeleine:

tense. Um, but she's like, oh, but it worked for this story. Um, so I was like, well, I'm glad it worked. But that's interesting as well, that readers have a particular style that they.

Tina:

Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah, I've been going through my son's books and being, and trying to quiz him and he's like, what do you mean mom makes it so personal? So, um, and he just can tell me which ones he likes and I have a little look at it and I go, oh, okay. That is, A lot of them are third, but yeah, he, he'll just read anything. But yeah, it is interesting that some people yeah. Have their preference. I think I'm a first person reader as well. I think I like that. You like yeah.

Madeleine:

First

Tina:

person. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It feels closer.

Madeleine:

Yeah. I mean, and then the second person, and that's just.

Tina:

Yeah. There's lots of things. Anyway, look, I might, yeah, I just, this morning that this has come to me, I'll give it a little trial and a year ago, but I thought I'd to know that. I love it. You're

Madeleine:

pushing the boundaries of, of yourself as a writer. That's important.

Tina:

Yes. I'm, I'm excited. I'm looking forward to it, actually. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Anyway, there's been lots going on. Um, yes. Any, aside from just what we've been up to, hasn't.

Madeleine:

Yes, it has been a big couple of weeks I think. I think coming to end of financial year. Mm-hmm.

Tina:

Mm-hmm. Yes. Um, yeah, I think there's a lot of, it feels like a lot of, um, kind of disappointment in the air, um, that vibe. Um, I just, I feel like I'm hearing it from all directions at the moment, from all different writer friends and groups and, um, places and, you know, authors are, are very open and, and which is great, you know, on. Social media posts and things as well, which is, um, you know, a nice insight into people's, you know, I guess on Author lives. But, um, yeah, a lot of disappointment, uh, from various different sources, I think. Mm-hmm. Um, like you said, end of financial years, so people who have been published in time for, you know, them to receive. Statements and things mm-hmm. Are, um, sometimes a little bit disappointed by, by what they're getting from their sales, I suppose. Mm-hmm. Um, and how things have been selling.

Madeleine:

I mean, uh, for those, um, listeners that don't know. Um, so authors receive royalties every six months, I think, isn't it Tina?

Tina:

I think

Madeleine:

so. The half. Point of the year and at the end of the year and it captured, I think there's a three month delay as well. Um, so it would've been sales from like September to March, I think this year. And then you get paid in June. And of course, you know, you only earn royalties if you've earned out to your advance. I think we've gone through this in the money, um, episode about the difference between advanced and royalties. And I think, I think perhaps. The, the visual when you see either a$0 royalty statement or a minus, because the minus happens when bookstores return books.'cause they are, they do have sale or return rights and they can return books. And that means that, you know, sometimes they can be a minus on your statement. And I suppose that is, um, as an author quite. You know, disappointing. It's always gonna be disappointing, isn't it? I think everybody dreams of earning out, but I think, I remember seeing a stat from the Australian Society of Authors that majority of authors actually don't earn out.

Tina:

Mm. Yes, I've heard that a lot as well, but, so can you explain the minus? So that's not, people don't owe that it's ju No, it's what, it's just sales figures, I guess. So, um, yeah, this is my understanding, minus the, yeah,

Madeleine:

I'm probably not the best person to, but my understanding is that you don't owe the publisher anything, but you have to earn that money back. Uh, in future statements to, to start earning again. And it's only'cause they've given you perhaps your previous statement. Um, so yeah, I mean, it's something that I've really learned recently is that you actually, um, earn royalties based on the number of sales into bookstores, not necessarily books bought by customers. Oh, and so if those, yeah, which I didn't know. No. And so if those bookstores then subsequently return.

Tina:

Oh, of course. Mm-hmm.

Madeleine:

That then is taken off your statement.

Tina:

That's the minus, yeah. Okay.

Madeleine:

And publishers do withhold a certain proportion of your royalties, at least initially to cover for that, but mm-hmm. Sometimes that can be, um, a bit more. So, um, it is, um, you know, I, I suppose authors we put. We all know we put so much time and effort into mm-hmm. Writing these books and I mean, I haven't had a statement yet. I'll get my first statement at the end of the year, so I can't really make any comments. But, um, like you, Tina Yeah. I've heard on the grapevine that it has been, I. You know, are difficult. I suppose you, and you think about the, the, the situation as well with, um, the cost of living and mm-hmm. The cost of books. And often when cost of living is high, books are gonna be the first things that people will sacrifice.

Tina:

They're a luxury item. Be in classes now. Yeah. Um, but I think, yeah. So, and then aside from that, like there's a lot of, or quite a few publishers that, um, have been struggling as well. There are some that are clo that have closed. There are some that are really limiting, um, how much they're producing in a year. And I think that just makes the, the pool of possibility even smaller for authors who are trying to be published, um, and not just. Brand new or that aspiring authors like people who have already been published before and are trying to get another deal and it's, it's just as hard, um,

Madeleine:

okay, so this sounds very depressing to everyone now. So this is the time where we That's depressing.

Tina:

Yeah.

Madeleine:

Don't quit your day job perhaps is, I mean, that's important. It's, and that's, that's a term

Tina:

being like. Advice though, isn't it? You can't, you can't. I think everybody is aware that you can't quit your day job. I mean, one day, hopefully you can. Um, and I think that's important to always, you know, hold onto to that thought and mm-hmm. And not get to, but there's also, um, being realistic I suppose that comes into it. But yeah, I'm not trying to be depressing. We just thought that it was, um, worth a little mention on the pub this week because we do feel that vibe and, um. It's also like, you know, there's a lot of competitions that are being drawn at the moment and there's lots of fellowships that are being awarded. It's a busy time for that. So there's lots of conferences where, you know, with, with competitions that you know, people just sort of finding out recently if they've made it through or not. I think it's just that timing of that just seems to be a lot. And so it just feels like there's a bit of a down vibe at the moment and rightly so, when you've been trying really hard and, um, yeah, I think we just wanted to acknowledge that and take a moment to chat about that because, um, yeah, it is difficult and it always has been difficult, hasn't it? And,

Madeleine:

and I guess though that people aren't alone. Like if you are feeling that mm-hmm. Disappointment or you are experiencing those rejections from those fellowships and competitions that, you know, everyone feels this, and I think you are totally validated, and it's okay to feel that.

Tina:

Mm-hmm.

Madeleine:

And you don't always have to say, oh, well, I have to be grateful for every opportunity I've had.

Tina:

Mm. And

Madeleine:

I have to, I'm, I'm privileged. And it's okay to feel pretty crappy, I think for a few days. I guess then it's up to you though, if. How you respond to that. Um mm-hmm. If it's going to help, you know, inspire you to keep going and do better and feel better. I mean, you know, that's, it's, it's really important. I actually really liked a post, I'm not sure, I don't think you saw this one, Tina, but Kylie or who again is a friend of the podcast and I actually, I'm pretty sure Kylie o's episode is out. Number one, it's, sorry. It's, it

Tina:

keeps, it just keeps coming up. People just keep finding it and playing it. So go back and listen to Kylie. Yours, one of our very first ones, wasn't it?

Madeleine:

Yeah. Super, super popular and I think it's because Kylie's always been very, um, honest and she actually has a newsletter, Substack that says. You know, if I'm being honest. So she's honest about, you know, sorry, is it called,

Tina:

if I'm being

Madeleine:

honest, I'm pretty sure Kylie can tell me if that's wrong. Um, I'm, I'm hoping she'll listen. Um, but yeah, she, she posted up last week about, um, she amazingly was long listed for the Furphy Literary Award, which is a really tough short story competition. It's one of the biggest major. Australian competitions. I think it might be global actually. Mm-hmm. So to be long list is, is incredible. Yeah. I think when you get those wins, like you have to sit with that, but then you always as a, as a human, go, well, I wanna be shortlisted. And then if you're shortlist, you go, well, I wanna win. Mm.

Tina:

Um,

Madeleine:

so, um, Kylie pressed up that, um, she did not get shortlisted and felt disappointment about not being shortlisted. Um, and mentioned that she's been. Um, in the top 20% of Varuna fellowships, Varuna being a really difficult residency to get. Um, and it's very highly competitive. Mm-hmm. So to be in the top 20% is also incredible. Um, you know, like that's a win. But on the flip side, there's that disappointment. And when you're rejected, and I know there's a lot of people who've, who are feeling that'cause Varuna, um, I think announced their residencies, um, just recently. But what I loved about Kylie's Post, and I think this really resonates, um, with probably lots of authors, is that, you know, she's, I'm just gonna quote her here'cause she's written it, it's perfect. Um, you know. Oftentimes she says, I hear no, which stings, but it doesn't stop me. Most things you enter, you won't win, but that doesn't make it a waste. Backing yourself matters being red matters. I just love that. No, that's beautiful words. You're being, you're being seen, you're backing yourself. Nothing is a waste.

Tina:

No, no, I agree. And this thing of, um, being a waste, and I just wanna point out again, that Kylie's multi published. Mm, that's right. And she's still getting rejections. And I think that's important. And I know it's hard when you're in the. Depth of feeling really, um, disappointed in the whole thing and, and potentially wanting to give up. But because, you know, I've, I've heard that a bit lately too about, from authors just thinking, why am I even still doing it? Yeah. And I think, and look, you know, the problem of being disappointed in this industry, I think is, is timeless. Um, but, and so is the advice I think in, in, and so I'm probably gonna sound like a broken record, but, um, absolutely. Just, I think probably remembering. Why you started it in the first place. Yeah, yeah. Um, what are you doing it for? Um, was it, are you doing it to get a multi-book deal, then that's absolutely not the right reasons, and that's not enough to keep you going. And maybe you should, you know, we all want multi-book deals though, but, um. It, it definitely wasn't for that. You, you picked up your pen or you started typing because you loved it or you had a story to tell and it's, I think it's just, you know, going back to those roots maybe. Yes. Um, taking that idea of being signed off the pedestal. Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. And just being like, that's not why I'm doing it. I'm doing, again, thinking about why I started, because I love it. And it may take a long time and it may take, you know, all my efforts or I may decide to even have a little break and reenergize myself on it. But just, um, yeah, not having that as your final goal. And I liken it to, um, I was talking to Danny V about this actually on the podcast just last week. I liken. Writing to, you know, being an artist. If there's people who paint and they could paint every day, or they can paint every weekend, or there's people who cross stitch, putting my finger up. Me, I don't cross stitch so I can enter some amaze and I don't really do much of it. I just wanna point the preface with that. But like, you know, I don't do that. I don't do my paint by numbers because I want to enter it into a. Artist competition and have an exhibition at a famous art gallery and earn money from it. I do it because I enjoy it. Um, you know, and so people paint because they enjoy it. People, you know, do lots of craft because they enjoy it. They make things because they enjoy it and they don't have that big goal. So we write because we enjoy it, and we're just gonna remember that and sort of maybe come back to that. You know, still have that hope and dream of having that big goal of being published one day or getting another deal. But, um, that's right. Writing to do it just for the, the love of it, I think.

Madeleine:

And I think if, um, as authors, I mean all of us. You and I, both Tina, have experienced rejections. Mm-hmm. It's just part of the parcel, isn't it? And if we were to give up because of those rejections, we wouldn't be here right now having Yeah, that's right. Like it's, it's, but it's really hard in the moment. It's easy for us to say in hindsight, because we can look back mm-hmm. And say, well, it was all part of a, a path

Tina:

mm-hmm.

Madeleine:

To getting our book deals. Yeah. And that's what was happening. But when you're in the thick of it, in that sort of. Yeah. Full feelings and yeah. Questioning whether you are you're any good or if you're, I think you are exactly right. Going back to the root and going, why am I doing this? Because, let me ask you, Tina, oh, I'm interested. If you did not get your deal with Neeka

Tina:

and you

Madeleine:

were still trying and still seeking publication

Tina:

mm-hmm.

Madeleine:

Would you keep writing?

Tina:

Yes. I would, because I've, and I've written though for a very long time. I've written my whole life, really. I had a big break, you know, when I was at uni I was in my twenties and stuff, but I have written my whole life in some way or another, and it never was. Because of, to be published ever. Mm-hmm. You know, as a teenager, as a 10-year-old, you know, it's, you don't write because you think you're gonna sell a book. You just, I literally would sit at a computer at home, um, while my friends were playing and I would write because I enjoyed it. Mm-hmm. And I had a, I had stories in my head and they just had to come out. Um, you know, so Yeah, absolutely I would, because I actually just thought of it as a hobby.

Madeleine:

Mm.

Tina:

I enjoyed doing it. What about you, Madeleine?

Madeleine:

Oh, I'd be still writing for sure. I never thought that I would get published. I just didn't have that concept as well. Um, but I suppose having said all of this though, and I mean, it, it, I still had some, I still had hope though, that one day something might happen. Yeah. And that would be, mm-hmm. Because I still think even. After getting rejections and, um, you wanna lower your expectations and you wanna protect yourself mm-hmm. From those feelings of disappointment. And, and you can start to say to yourself, well, I'm writing'cause I love it and I don't have any expectations of publication. I think you still have to have hope though.

Tina:

You do. No, you definitely do because I think being, feeling hopeless in this and then you, it absolutely won't work. I think you do have to sort of have that plan and have that goal, and I don't know if we wanna touch on some manifestation here. Yes. I maybe everyone that's, that's, I think everybody who's feeling the disappointment at the moment, maybe go and find the episode that we did with Jane Tara a couple of weeks ago. It might be a nice little recalibration or a new way of potentially looking at it because you do just have, you do have wants and you have dreams. And that's a hundred percent and absolutely, um, imperative, I think to, to know where you wanna go so you can take the steps to get there,

Madeleine:

well, I was gonna say though, Tina, on that, um, you've reminded me, I mean, while Jane, Ty says, you can hope and you can man like manifest and put it on your vision board. Mm-hmm. You still have to take action. Mm. Yeah. And that's key, isn't it? So it's things like what both of us have done over the last few years is get to know the industry, get build a community research, understand what a book deal is, what it means. Um, get your name out there. I guess what Kylie is saying, being read is just as important as. Like winning a prize or being shortlisted or being long listed, you're being read. So it is vulnerable putting your work out there. It's awful when you're rejected for these types of prizes, but you're putting your name out and it's just another step. So, and that goes to what Jane was saying about, yeah, you can manifest, you can hope, but you still need to take those practical steps as well. Mm-hmm.

Tina:

Yeah. And there can be a thousand reasons why it wasn't a yes. Mm-hmm. Or why you weren't successful. Yes. A thousand reasons. And sometimes, you know, 999 of them had nothing to do with actually the quality of your writing or who you are as an author. It's to do with market or it's to do with. The number of people that applied. It's to do with how well it fit the criteria. There's, there's so much. So it's, you know, we've said before, it's a numbers game as well. Yes. Yeah. And just to remember that. And you know, sometimes it'd be helpful to go and have a little Google of famous authors who were rejected multiple times before they exactly became bestsellers. That's also helpful. I did find out tonight that there is, I think it's a Facebook community that is Yes. Like the 100 Rejections Club or something like that. So anyone who's had 100 rejections or more can can join this elite. Facebook club. So go and have a look for it. Um, if you haven't had 100 reject rejections, make that your goal. Make that your goal, and then you can become part of this really awesome group. Um, and you might

Madeleine:

get one, one yes as well. Yeah. And that, that makes all the difference.

Tina:

Or you're improving your writing every single time. You Exactly. You're submitting it, so, you know, and I think everybody who's listening to the pod, who's who are authors, they know all these things too. But sometimes it's a good little reminder. Um. You know, things will ebb and flow and you'll ebb and flow and your feelings will ebb and flow with it. But you know, if you enjoy it and you enjoy the community, like why would you stop doing that?

Madeleine:

Exactly. The community's the best part. And that's what I've heard from some of our debut crew authors as well, who've, who've just saying like, despite all the perhaps disappointment, um. The things that have happened to them this year that haven't gone great and haven't gone their way and they've felt a little bit disappointed.'cause you know, that's just natural. Having the community and finding the community has been a surprise and the best part about all of this.

Tina:

Mm-hmm.

Madeleine:

So if you are feeling that way. Reach out to your community. It can be the writing community or just your friends as well and family. Mm-hmm. Um, and you know, we should start like, I don't know, our own community book deal community, Tina. We've, we're thinking about, um, setting up a Patreon in future and bringing people along who want a bit of extra book deal. Yeah. Yeah. Things as well. And starting a bit of a club to talk with writers about. Their goals and what they wanna do and if it's something that we can assist with. So we should think about that.

Tina:

Yeah, we should do. We'll, we'll put that back on the agenda.

Madeleine:

Zoom with Tina and Madeleine, talk about your book deal.

Tina:

Yes. Tell us your stories, just success stories as well. So yeah, I think that's. So that's some, that's, that's my top tips anyway. Go away and Google some famous resource that, that got rejected many times. Um, but also, yes, just remembering this, this is the process, isn't it? And remembering why you love it. Mm-hmm. And maybe focus on those things, the community and just the joy of writing. Mm-hmm. Whatever happens, happens.

Madeleine:

That's right. And don't feel afraid to share, like Kylie, I think Kylies very courageous.

Tina:

Mm-hmm.

Madeleine:

Don't feel afraid to share that that might actually be quite cathartic and helpful. I think that's my top tip.

Tina:

Yeah. And helpful for others, not just yourself by sharing it. Yes.

Madeleine:

Yes. I agree. And because I think everyone's in this together, and Instagram often does, is a, it's, it's a. You know, shows a curated version of people's lives and mm-hmm. I mean, this is partly why I'm taking a bit of a break from Instagram at the moment as well, because, you know, there's a lot, a lot there and it's, it's quite distracting and, um, and significant, so. Mm-hmm. Um, I think that, um, you know, even though I'm taking a break, I'm obviously still doing book deal. That's how I saw Kylie's post. It's priorities. Gotta keep myself accountable. Otherwise my husband will be like, what were you doing on Instagram? So maybe, and maybe for some people it's taking a break from social media as well.

Tina:

Yes, yes. Because it's very hard, it's very hard to deal with those feelings of, um, not achieving what you want when other people are posting up all these incredible things that are happening to them. And yeah, like you said, it's, it's. You dunno what's behind that.

Madeleine:

That's right. So maybe that's my top tip then. Take a break from socials if you feel like you need it.

Tina:

Yep.

Madeleine:

Step away for a few weeks, even a few days. And just find, go back to what you were saying, Tina. Go. Go to the root causes. Like what's driving you to write, what do you love about writing? Mm-hmm. And get back to that original, authentic self as of yourself as a writer.

Tina:

And if you have any tips, anybody who's listening for, um, our authors that are listening as well, who are going through this time, please let us know how you have worked through it. Um, I know we also have lots of our episodes where we've asked authors what did they do after a rejection? And I think 99% of the time they say, yep. Sit with it for a bit. Mm-hmm.

Madeleine:

It happens. Feel sorry for yourself for a bit and then suck it

Tina:

up and move

Madeleine:

on. That's right, that's right. Yeah, so, exactly, exactly. On something a bit more positive, are you reading any good books at the moment, Tina?

Tina:

Uh, I've got a few on the go and I'm so conflicted. Um, and I don't like to have too many on the go, but I do at the moment. But the two that I brought away with me camping

Madeleine:

yes.

Tina:

Is um. We saw what you started by Carla Salmon, which is a ya and I do love a Good ya. Um, which is amazing, which only came out just the last week or so and I went to her incredible book launch on the Gold Coast, which was so fun. Um, and I'm also reading RIP Nanny Tobins by our other lovely, um, debut crew member Lucy Stevens.

Madeleine:

Oh, yes. So, and that's really fun.

Tina:

Yeah, that's a middle grade. Really fun. Um, and I'm like, I'm in just kind of halfway through both of them and trying to, I

Madeleine:

love, I love that. Oh, you're balancing both.

Tina:

Yes. I'm trying to decide, but I am going to interview Carla very soon for the book deal. So, um, finish her one first and then, and then keep going with. Nanny Tobin, so

Madeleine:

that's

Tina:

good. What about you?

Madeleine:

Well, we'll stick with the debut theme. Um, I'm reading Stillwater by Tanya Scott, um, which is coming out at the end of this month actually. So I got an early copy of it and oh my gosh, it is amazing. Mm-hmm. It's a, it's a thriller, um, set in Melbourne, um, although there is a bit of a country aspect to it, but it's so funny'cause Tanya. I don't, you've met Tanya? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Lovely. Sweet. Mm-hmm. She's great, kind. Mm-hmm. Beautiful human. Mm-hmm. She's like, um, a doctor and a medical trainer, and she's so, so wonderful. And this book, it's like, it's like there's like, um. It's this, this very conflicted, um, morally gray kind of character, main character. Luke is his name. Tanya? Yeah, I know. And like he, it's a bit of a badass book. Like I'm loving it, but I'm also like, where is this coming from? Tanya?

Tina:

Yeah. Oh, like mob bosses and guns and all sorts. I'm Tanya, we're gonna have to talk about this when we see you next. Very exciting. Yeah.

Madeleine:

I'm definitely, um, very keen to finish. I'm halfway through and I'm just flying through it, so I think this is gonna be a big hit, right? Still water. Okay.

Tina:

Give it. Can you lend it to me afterwards?

Madeleine:

Yep. I'll, I'll give it to you when you're here in Melbourne. Okay. Awesome.

Tina:

Yes. Which is soon. Which is soon. Actually. Very soon. Oh, okay.

Madeleine:

Well, enjoy. Don't get murdered, please. Um, let me know when you're Okay. Safely back home and enjoy seeing Neeka and the storm, not the missing storm. Um,

Tina:

it's very present.

Madeleine:

I'm gonna, actually, I'm going to GIMs tomorrow, so I'm gonna see if I can find it. I think I definitely find it, but I'm gonna take some photos and I'll send it to you. Aw,

Tina:

thank you.

Tina Strachan:

Thank you for listening to the Book Deal podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the pod so you can receive updates as soon as our new EPS drop and to keep up to date with what the pod is doing. You can also find us on Instagram.