The Book Deal
Motivation and inspiration for emerging writers, helping them pave their own pathway to publishing success.
The Book Deal
The Takeover: Holly Brunnbauer on securing a book deal, and savvy tips on how to befriend social media while connecting with people
In this episode of the Book Deal podcast hosted by Natasha Rai, emerging fiction author Holly Brunnbauer discusses her path to publication, detailing her journey from blogging and copywriting to becoming a published author. Holly provides insights into her debut rom-com 'What Did I Miss?', her character development process, and the challenges she faced in getting a book deal with Harper Collins. She also shares her social media strategies and gives valuable advice for aspiring authors on obtaining professional feedback and engaging with the writing community. Listeners will gain a deeper understanding of the publication process and practical tips to enhance their own writing careers.
00:00 Introduction to the Book Deal Podcast
00:39 Meet Holly Brunnbauer: Award-Winning Fiction Author
01:22 Holly's Debut Novel: What Did I Miss?
01:39 Interview with Holly: Writing Journey and Inspirations
02:20 Exploring the Themes and Characters of What Did I Miss?
06:03 Character Development and Writing Process
13:46 The Role of Sex Scenes in Storytelling
16:04 Addressing Serious Themes in Romcoms
21:15 Holly's Publication Journey
30:42 Sam Guthrie's The Peak: An International Thriller
32:07 The Importance of Author-Publisher Relationships
34:11 The Anxiety of Waiting for News
35:09 A Glut of Good News
36:51 Navigating Competitions and Grants
37:52 The Adaptable Pitching Experience
39:06 The Journey to a Book Deal
42:44 The Long Wait for Publication
43:18 The Editing Process
44:58 Social Media and Branding for Authors
59:33 Advice for Aspiring Writers
01:02:21 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
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This is the Book Deal podcast, monthly takeover by your host, Natasha Rai. I'll be bringing you even more debut and season authors as they talk about their path to publication.
Madeleine Cleary:The book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
Natasha Rai:Holly Brunnbauer is a multi-award winning, emerging fiction author who has earned numerous accolades in writing competitions across Australia, New Zealand, and the US. She writes stories filled with heart, humor and hijinks. Her signature style includes a strong commercial voice, quirky cast, and putting the comm in romcom. Holly first caught the writing bug via blogging and later transitioned into copywriting. She's now a sought after virtual assistant for published and aspiring authors based in rural Victoria. She spends her time with her husband, two rambunctious boys, and a cheeky pug planning and building their off-grid country home. The outdoors is her happy place. Holly's debut novel, What Did I Miss? Is published by Harper Collins. This fresh and feisty romantic comedy explores what happens when you meet someone special before truly knowing yourself. Hi, Holly Brunnbauer. Welcome to the Book Deal Podcast.
Holly Brunnbauer:Thank you so much for having me, Natasha.
Natasha Rai:It's great to have you. How are you today?
Holly Brunnbauer:I am feeling really good, actually. I'm feeling nervous, excited.
Natasha Rai:Mm. And so just for our listeners so that they are aware in terms of timing, we're having this conversation literally a month to the day that your debut novel What Did I Miss? will be out.
Holly Brunnbauer:Yes, that's correct. It's coming out on the 2nd of July.
Natasha Rai:That's right. So I really wanna talk to you in a moment about how you're doing with that, but before we get to that, I think it will be really great, um, if you could give us your elevator pitch.
Holly Brunnbauer:Fantastic. Okay. So What Did I Miss? is a fresh and feisty rom-com about Mikayla, who is newly divorced and almost 30 and ready to tick off her list all the things she missed out on in her twenties, starting with a one night stand. So she bangs a random guy from the bar. And as fate would have it, not so random, he reappears in her life and suddenly she's fighting feelings she didn't sign up for. And even if she wanted to date him, which she doesn't, she can't because her auntie is bribing her to stay single until her birthday in order to inherit something that she doesn't necessarily want, but her ex-husband desperately does. And there is nothing Mikayla would love more than to get back at him for the shitty thing he did that ended their marriage. So the question is, can Mikayla stay single until her 30th birthday and tick off all the experiences she thought she missed out on? Or will she start a new decade with more regrets?
Natasha Rai:Oh, love it. What a great pitch. Now I have to admit, um, you sent me, um. The, uh, novel, the manuscript, the novel. And I'd hoped, I'd hoped to read some of it before we had our chat today, but it was so good that I read the entire thing.
Holly Brunnbauer:Oh, wow. Thank you.
Natasha Rai:Um, I found myself like literally like waiting in between like work to go back to it to read. Now, having said all that, I'll just caveat it, that my knowledge of romcoms comes primarily from eighties and nineties Nora Ephron movies. I'm not, um, a natural reader of romcoms. Not because I don't like them, just because, yeah, I don't know. I think I'm, I tend to watch them. So I was really interested in a couple of things that really struck me in your novel, which is about the trope that I've been used to or the kind of usual storyline revolves around in a, in heterosexual romances about the woman wanting to be with this man and the man really withholding. And I noticed that that was neatly flipped in, in, What Did I Miss? Yeah, I'm just curious about that.
Holly Brunnbauer:Yeah. Uh. I would love to say, you know, it was really intentional, but it, I guess in a way it is because, you know, it's very sexy also for a, for, for it to be flipped for the man to fall first.
Natasha Rai:Oh yeah. I'm into that.
Holly Brunnbauer:Um, but the other thing I guess was about Mikayla in general, a lot of romcoms, uh, you would normally make the protagonist someone who's really likable and someone you'd wanna be best friends with. And Mikayla's not that,
Natasha Rai:yeah, she's prickly, so,
Holly Brunnbauer:oh, she's prickly, she's blunt, she's sarcastic. She will cut you off in a second. And it, like, as a writer, it's just really fun to create characters that go against the grain. Um, especially in a romance as well. You know, I wanted to create a character that was strong, but also needed to learn how to be vulnerable and, and also to learn that that wasn't a weakness for her. So there were a few, you know, they say like, you should always flip the cliches on their head. There's also, for an an example, there's an ex-mother-in-law usually, you know, the ex-wife and ex-mother-in-law would hate each other. Mm-hmm. And they don't hate each other. That's right. They have a very endearing relationship. And same with perhaps, you know, the ex-husband and his new girlfriend and Mikayla, normally they would be pinned against each other. And I didn't wanna do that either. I was like, we can coexist as women without hating on each other. So it was really important to me that there wasn't, you know, that I wasn't leaning into those cliches and was creating something that felt a bit fresher in the romcom space.
Natasha Rai:And, you know, you've totally nailed it. And I'm really curious, was that your starting point? Like, did your characters come to you first or did you have an idea for this story that you wanted to tell?
Holly Brunnbauer:I had, I think maybe perhaps the premise came to me first in that one of my friends had married and divorced her high school sweetheart and she was in her thirties and entering the adult dating world for the very first time. And I found that to be just such a fascinating situation. Mm-hmm. You know, the last time she dated, she'd been 16 now. Yes, she was older, had more life experience, but she also didn't have that sort of foundational experience of where we all have to, you know, perhaps kiss a few frogs, uh, and things like that. And I just sort of sat there and thought, wow, what a unique situation. I wonder what I would do if I was in that position. And I guess. Being me and perhaps watching too much Bridgerton. At the time I was like, I'd probably wanna go out and have a one night stand, you know, just to see what it's like. And so the first chapter poured out of me. I just sat there and it just vomited onto the page basically. And I was like, Ooh. But Mikayla's voice came really strong. She's nothing like my friend. I have to just caveat that. Um, my friend is lovely and very warm and friendly, but Mikayla just had this bityness and I just was so drawn to her, um, being so unhinged sometimes. Mm. I felt like she kind of just wrote herself and I was going along for the ride, but then I just. The idea of, so there is a list in this story. So she actually comes up with this list and no regrets list. And you know, I thought after she had that experience, I was like, well, what other things would she want to try? And I messaged my friends, like, I just dropped off into the group chat, you know, if you found yourself suddenly single, what new encounters would you wanna try? And they just came back with the funniest answers and a lot of them were just filthy. And I was like, oh, let me grab a pen. And I just wrote them all down and thought, how can I make this into a story? Uh, and you know, so I have to really thank my, my horny friends for that. I appreciated that. But not all of them end up being, you know, yeah. Sexually related activities. Mm-hmm. They do. It does broaden out. But it was just a really fun place to start. And it was interesting to me because the group chat was going off. I could see it was something. That was a conversation starter. And I thought, yeah, there's something here. I'm gonna lean into this. Yeah. So that's how it really got started.
Natasha Rai:Yeah, I love that. And you know, what you say about Mikayla, she is a very strong character in that she feels so fully formed. And I have to say, as a reader, I didn't dislike her at all. I could actually
Holly Brunnbauer:Oh, thank you.
Natasha Rai:See the vulnerability. And she's got a lot of insight, doesn't she?'cause she does. Um, without giving away too much, she does say a few times in, in, in the story that she's realized she comes from a family where they don't really talk about feelings or they talk about, you know, big things. Yeah. And, and that really came through and what I really delighted in was that I could see these vulnerabilities in her and I was really glad that this man that she's attracted to seemed to do the same. Yes. Which I loved. Yeah. What was that like to write, like, his name's Beau, am I pronouncing that correctly?
Holly Brunnbauer:Yes. Beau that's correct. Mr. So Mikayla. Yes, exactly. Mr. Shepherd.
Natasha Rai:Actually, I do wanna talk to you about the sex in a moment.
Holly Brunnbauer:Okay. Let's just get to the good stuff.
Natasha Rai:Oh, oh God. Yeah. Um, so Beau Shepherd, he, how was he to write for you? Because Mikayla and, and he also feels very fully formed to me, but obviously quite different to how Mikayla is portrayed on the page.
Holly Brunnbauer:Yeah, so they are quite opposite. And sometimes, you know, you have someone you would pair them with, someone who does challenge that person. And that's Beau's sort of role that he's playing. Whether he was a love interest or not, he's constantly challenging her to look at her behavior and to see, to really see, you know, can she continue these habits? Are they actually serving her in the way that she thinks they are? Uh, with him, I wanted to put in a green flag, man. Yes. I wanted someone who, so is that Yeah. And hot. Yeah. And of course hot, like they just gonna be hot, obviously. Yeah. But I just wanted someone who had really firm boundaries and someone who could have a healthy conversation. And address conflict head on, because I find, you know, they, they often in books like this, they, you know, they, they don't communicate and stuff like that.
Natasha Rai:And those misunderstandings are really, uh, I find sometimes just a bit silly. Like if someone just said one thing, it would just all be fine. Yeah. Yeah.
Holly Brunnbauer:And, and Mikayla is very quick to always think the worst of people. So she does that quite often with him because she is just, you know, viewing everything through sort of, she says like a broken glass, basically. Yeah. But he's very quick to pull her, you know, to, he is just, yeah. To pull her up on everything and call it out as well, call out her behavior. And I don't know what it was, but I just found that so hot. Like it was like, okay, this is a good guy. And you know, like. Sometimes I think that romance novels are, are blueprints for men of how we wanna be treated. Like these are the men that we, you know, our book boyfriends we call them, um, but they're really just like, guys, it's not that hard. Like, just read the novels. Yeah. This is what we want. We want someone who will, you know, have a conversation with us about our behavior and our feelings and, and say, well, what's going on there? Let's actually have a chat about this. Let's unpack this. Yeah. So I really love that. But I do a lot of character development before I start my story. I always do start like I'll, you know, if the premise comes to me, all the title comes to me, whatever it is, I spend a month getting to know my characters before I start my story. Yeah. Yeah. So that's why they feel So when you say, yeah. So I'm curious about that. So when you say you spend a month getting to know your characters.
Natasha Rai:What kinds of exercises or, or what are you doing to get into their kind of heads?
Holly Brunnbauer:Yeah. Well, the first thing for me, I'm just a real visual person. Mm-hmm. So I kind of create,
Natasha Rai:I can tell, yeah.
Holly Brunnbauer:A mood board of their life, basically. Like I need to know, like I will find a picture of the, the character that matches the character in my head. I will also create their wardrobe and, but every piece that I pick, there has to be a reason. So, for example, with Mikayla, for her bathers, she wears a practical one piece and it's black. And that's because she's an athlete and when she's going into the pool, she's not there parading and trying to show off her hot little bod. She's there to get work done and she wants to beat Agnes in that race. So when I pick an item, like everything tells a story, but it tells me something about the character. So that's just a little exercise that I like to do. I also think about all the things that they like and all the things they dislike in their life as well. Um. And then I also think about three things in their past that have happened to them that contribute to them being the character that the reader meets at the start. So even if that doesn't make it into the book, I need to know what three things happen to them. Yeah. So that I can write them in a way that feels like, yeah, this person has lived a life. They were someone before you actually opened this book and started at Chapter one.
Natasha Rai:Wow. Okay. All the writers out there, character development tips, write them down. Um, so I'm really curious about the, uh, the sex scenes. Okay. Because I get asked a lot about the sex in my book, so I was, I always now like to read with an eye on that. If, if there is a romance element, which obviously yours is a romance book, how was that for you? How, how do you approach writing sex?
Holly Brunnbauer:Yeah, so I, I don't find it embarrassing or cringe or any different to writing an action scene, for example, if anything, I probably find the crying scenes and the vulnerable scenes to be really hard. The sex scenes for me, I always have to ask myself, uh, why is this in here? What is it actually showing about the character? And there are multiple, I call them intimate scenes because to me it's not just like I'm not there to titillate the reader. If it does, you are welcome i's tate it. Okay, fantastic. Um, but you know, if you are not, that's okay. So, you know, for example, with the very first time we actually see them on the page intimate compared to the last time, the first time is very rough and quick and dirty and she's really trying to numb herself. So that's what it's trying to portray. So I'm using, you know, verbs and trying to use the setting and the mood to create, you know, that sort of feeling compared to the last time when we see her, when she's gone through so much and changed so much as a character, it's very slow and sensual and freeing. And that is really to highlight one, how her connection with Beau changes. It goes from a very physical to a very emotional relationship, but also how she is feeling about herself. So I was really intentional in those scenes to show those things evolving over time and you just gotta keep practicing at it when it comes to that sort of thing. I think there has to be a really strong connection there in order for sex scenes to, to feel really good when you're reading them. Mm-hmm. And you do have to, I guess, have a crush on at least one of the people in, in the story in order to be like, Ooh, yeah, I enjoyed this.
Natasha Rai:I enjoyed them a lot.
Holly Brunnbauer:Oh, thank you.
Natasha Rai:And then swinging kind of to something. That was quite different to the sex. So I, I'm not going to give any spoilers, but there are some quite, uh, what's the right word? Serious themes, I suppose, that you do write about in terms of something that's happened to Mikayla or in her past, recent past. And that is obviously quite a different mood and tone to, you know, the, the budding romance or the, the attraction she has for Beau. And what really struck me as a reader was that there is a beautiful way that you've done it in that you kind of know something is coming, but it doesn't, I don't know, it doesn't take away from this person and it doesn't overwhelm the reader. It doesn't, it didn't overwhelm me. But at the same time it was such a beautiful, nuanced way of, for her to kind of face this thing.
Holly Brunnbauer:Hmm.
Natasha Rai:How is that for you to write?
Holly Brunnbauer:It was difficult. Mm-hmm. Um, I had to really dig deep, but I felt it was important that if I was going to address a topic like that, and I'm sorry for everyone who, you know, you haven't read the book,
Natasha Rai:that's okay.
Holly Brunnbauer:We're gonna, you know, skirt around the spoiler.
Natasha Rai:This, this will make sense once they read it and come back.
Holly Brunnbauer:Yeah, yeah. Um, I felt that if I was going to address that topic, because it's not often brought up in romcoms.
Natasha Rai:No, it is not.
Holly Brunnbauer:No it's not. So I was like, it's not gonna be something that I'm just going to brush over and pretend it's not important. I was going to really go there and I know I've had people, uh, feedback from people that were like. I was like, you know, I was expecting your book to be funny, which it is, but I was not expecting it to be deep. And I was like, I love that feedback. Like I'm actually happy with that feedback that people felt that it was addressed appropriately. And yeah, like I said, it w it was something, it is uncomfortable for me because I, I'm sure with you, you know, you, your characters feel real to you and it's like, I'm making this horrible thing happen to this
Natasha Rai:Yes, exactly.
Holly Brunnbauer:This person that I care about. Yeah. And I just, you know, I felt like it, it, I needed to dig deep with it, but I, I felt like it was also important for Mikayla's character arc in that, you know, you needed to see, she wasn't as tough as you thought she was. Mm-hmm. You know, there was more to her and I felt like it just gave her another layer, um, that the reader could, you know, perhaps relate to
Natasha Rai:For sure. And it's about, you know, as you said, when you do your work around the characters backstories and developing them. We also need to understand that her reaction is appropriate considering what she's experienced. It is completely her fears, her, you know, her experiences have directly contributed to how she's in the world right now.
Holly Brunnbauer:Yeah, absolutely. And I also, you know, giving a perspective on what is, you know, the angry woman, uh, which is something,
Natasha Rai:sorry, I'm rolling my eyes. Eyes.
Holly Brunnbauer:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's one of those things where I, there were times where I was, you know, worried that it wouldn't get published or perhaps because she was so angry or that I would perhaps have an editor that would tell me to pull back on that. And I didn't. And I was so happy that my publisher and my editor, they never once said anything about that. Like they really, you know, just accepted like, yeah, we are really going there with her. Um, and there's going to be, there will be like, I know there will be people who won't like that about her, but I was like, feminine rage is just something I really wanted address. Maybe it's my rage and I've projected it onto the page, but not at all. I mean, even if it is like it's, it's valuable and we need to talk about it.
Natasha Rai:You know, just on that point, I was at Words in the Waves yesterday, which is a festival in the Central Coast, new South Wales. And literally I was on a panel with Jesse Tu, and Nikki Gemmell, and they talked about rage and they talked about female rage specifically. Yes. And. You know, portraying it in all its forms through different stories. And you know, my character, Arch, in my book is very angry and I've had people say, I nearly didn't finish it, or I nearly couldn't get into it'cause of her anger. And I'm like, so what? I just, I find that really interesting. Yeah. As a response.
Holly Brunnbauer:Are we not allowed to be angry? I, we not allowed to be pissed off, but the difference too is what we do with that anger. I mean, we are not going around punching walls or, you know, murdering people when we are angry. So I think it's a great topic to explore. And me too, you know, I was happy to in
Natasha Rai:No, and I'm really glad you did because as you said, you don't often see that in that, um, genre. And I, for one, as a reader just really, really enjoyed that. Um, because also to me it felt so real and it also felt obvious that. Not that you need a reason to be, well, you sort of need a reason to be angry, but that kind of internalized rage, which is what we're talking about here, right? Like yes. When the rage is turned inward. Um, especially women, we do that a lot.
Holly Brunnbauer:Yes.
Natasha Rai:Yes. Yeah. Anyway, but let's not get into that. That's for another podcast. But if we zoom out now a bit from your writing practice, which I do wanna ask about in a bit, what was your publication journey like? So yeah, tell me about that.
Holly Brunnbauer:Okay, so mine really starts with getting an agent first. So I signed up for the agent and editor assessments at the CYA conference, and that is, so, it's not a pitching opportunity, it's where you submit your first chapter, your synopsis, and your bio. To an agent or an editor that you've booked in with, they see that before they meet you, and then you've got 15 minutes with them where they give you feedback on that. And I booked in with my dream agent and I'd been writing her name in my journal for a year and I thought, oh wow, this will be a great opportunity to meet her. So that she could also put face to the name, so when I do submit to her later, perhaps she'll remember me. Mm-hmm. There'll be some familiarity there, but I also,
Natasha Rai:and can I just ask a quick question, holly? Yeah. At that point, how much of your manuscript had you written?
Holly Brunnbauer:So I'd written the first draft.
Natasha Rai:Oh, okay. Got it.
Holly Brunnbauer:But this only happens once a year in July, so I didn't wanna miss the opportunity. Yeah. And I, I also just wanted to ask her too, like, did she feel it had like commercial appeal? Were people ask like, were publishers interested in this thing? And also, did she think the first chapter was hooky enough? Like would it, would it compel her to keep reading? I wanted her professional opinion.
Natasha Rai:Mm-hmm. And those are really, really good questions.
Holly Brunnbauer:Yeah. And so when we met, I kind of thought, look, so you can't record the session. You have to write down all their feedback. And I sort of like, pen and hand ready? Tell me what's wrong with it. I'll fix it. You know, very eager. And then she sort of like said a few little things, but then she just sort of told me how much she really enjoyed it. Oh. And she was asking me lots of questions and I was a bit like, what's going on? Why isn't she telling me all the things that are wrong? And I was like shaking. Like, I'd, I'd been, I was so nervous. I was so sick. And then she said, I don't usually, um, represent romance authors. And my heart just dropped.'cause I was like, what? Like I knew she represented people who wrote adult fiction and children's fiction and stuff like that. But I'd never really looked at the genre. And I was like, oh my God. Like what have I done? I've invested all this time into her being my agent. And then she goes, but this is really smart and I'd love to see the rest. And I was like. Okay. And then we got spit out of the meeting.'cause it's a virtual, you go to this virtual waiting room. So I didn't have time to tell her that it was a first draft because she hadn't asked. Ah, yes. So then I sat there all weekend going back and forth and I was saying to my husband, what do I do? What do I do? And he goes, just send it to her. And then I was like, no, I'm not gonna do that. I'm a Virgo. Like I need it to be perfect. I don't wanna blow my shot and I also don't wanna waste her time. So I emailed her to say, Hey, like I really appreciate that you've requested the full, I'm so excited. Can I please send this to you when I've worked on it a bit more? I want to present my best work. And she was like, absolutely, that's totally fine. I was like, okay. Right. Fantastic. So I got working on it. In the meantime, I got shortlisted for publishable with the Queensland Writers Center. Yeah. Which was so exciting and I'd finished it, but. In their terms and conditions, you are not allowed to send your manuscript to agents or publishers while you do the program. Um, so it's embargoed and I was like, oh damn. So I emailed her and said, Hey, great news. I got shortlisted for this award, which I was rapt about because again, I was like, it's a romcom. It's against all these other genres. I didn't think it would get picked, like when I got long listed, I, I, like, I had the wind knocked out of me'cause they call you and, oh, best call I've ever had in my life. But I was like, like I honestly was panting on the phone and I I had to email them afterwards to apologize'cause I was just like so excited. But yeah, so I told her and she's like, that's so great. And I was like, but I can't send it to you until I finished this program. Which I really wanted to do the program. I didn't wanna withdraw from it'cause you got a mentor and um, some other really great perks with it. And so I did the program and then as soon as it was finished, I emailed it to her and it was December. And I thought, this is the worst time of year to send an agent a manuscript. Like literally the end of the year. Yes. And I thought, oh God, I'm never gonna hear from her. And then she emailed back and said, I'll get it back to you in January. And I was like, nah, it's, if you're gonna read it by then, like whatever. And so in January I was sitting there, you know, checking my emails, checking my emails. She was kind enough to email me to say like, mid Jan. And I like, my heart stopped, she said, just letting you know, I've had some of my current clients send their manuscripts in like their second and third one, so I need to read those first before yours, just letting you know. And I was like, that's really nice. Like, I don't know many agents that would do that. So I was like, you know, green flag automatically, like this is a professional and she understands the anxiety of the person waiting on the other side. And then I sort of started to panic. And I thought, oh my God. Like maybe she started to read it and then put it down and you know, then she started with the other ones, like maybe she's just lying. And then not that she would, but you know, you, you do, you, you
Natasha Rai:Of course you just doubt yourself and second guess yourself. Yeah, of course.
Holly Brunnbauer:Absolutely. So I thought I'll put together a spreadsheet of all the agents I'm going to contact, you know, throughout the year I was gonna do a slow rollout, that's what they call it, so that if you get feedback, you have time to change your manuscript before you send it out to someone else. Okay. And so I started putting together that spreadsheet and I thought I'll just send it to the next one on the list. And I sent it and I got an email a few hours later saying, send me the full. And I was like, oh my God. So I was like, okay, that's really exciting. But then a week later in January, even though I wasn't expecting it, the email came through from the first agent I. And I thought, oh my God, this is it. This is my first rejection I'm going to. So I didn't even look at it. I just put my phone down. I went and made a cup of tea. I grabbed,
Natasha Rai:Oh God, I can't believe I didn't look at it. I would've like, my God. Okay.
Holly Brunnbauer:I sat down at my desk with my tissues ready to have my first, you know, breakdown. And then I opened it and it was like, you know, I'm not officially back at work, but I've read it. I finished it. I loved it. Um, I'd love to represent you, you know, all this stuff. Oh, that's your dream agent. My dream agent. And I was like, bawling my eyes out. And I,
Natasha Rai:You did need the tissues.
Holly Brunnbauer:I did need the tissues. I was like, they nothing there. And it was just amazing. And I was like, I, I can't believe this is happening. I had to read the email so many times. What a moment. Home. I was like, can you read this? Does this say what I think it says? He's like, yes, it does. And I was like, um, so that was amazing. That was so good. And then. When you have an agent, then you've gotta put, they've gotta put together a pitch package. And so she said to me, she actually does give editorial feedback if, if required, but she said, this is ready to go, we're gonna send it out. And I was like, okay. And then I signed with her and literally a few days later it was out, you know, she was sending it to the big five and I was like, I'm not ready for this. And she's like, just hang in there, it's fine. Um, because you're not CC'd into those emails. That's fine. Yes. Fantastic. Yes. Um, thank goodness. But she said, you know, we'll, uh, you know, in about four to six weeks I'll start to nudge if we dont hear anything and we'll see how it goes. And you just, you think like, waiting for the agent is bad, waiting for the publishers is 10 times worse. Because I didn't tell anyone I had a publisher. I was like, I'm not announcing this. I mean, that I had a agent, agent. Agent, yeah. Because I was like, well, what if. The publishers say no. Like there's not many publishers in Australia. It's very likely. That's right, yes. Yeah. So I was keeping this all to myself besides my husband. Oh. Um, and spiraling the whole time I felt sick. And then one day I got an email from her and it was like from Harper Collins and which was my dream publisher, and I was like. Oh my gosh. And it said, you know, I love this. And she said about, she goes, I love that Mikayla has a proper arc that's outside of the romance. It really sets itself, you know, apart from other ones. And I was like, okay, that's great. And she said, oh, you know, is Holly available for a meeting? I'd like to take it to acquisitions. And I was like, is Holly available? Ah, let me play my schedule. Hyper Collins available. And then, you know, my agent's like, it's fine. Like, um, we'll have the meeting. They're really, she said, you know, they're gonna tr probably talk about the direction they want the book in to go in, but they're really kind of sussing you out as well, so just act normal. I was like, uh, I don't think I can. But it is the most amazing meeting you've ever had in your life. Having a publisher sit there and talk to you about your book for like 45 minutes and just tell you everything that they love about it and also have this vision of where it could go even further. So she had ideas about things and. They were all things that I was like, yes, I'm creatively excited'cause I went to that meeting going okay. What if she wants to change this? What if she wants to change that? Da da da dah. And I was like, the only thing, which is the spoiler thing that we talk about, I was like, if they wanna change that, if they wanted to pull that out, no, I, I think I'd actually like have enough integrity to not pull that particular thing out of the book.
Natasha Rai:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Holly Brunnbauer:Um, and thank goodness you didn't say that. Yeah.
Sam Guthrie:Hi, this is Sam Guthrie. I'm the author of The Peak, which is being released on the 2nd of July by Harper Collins, and it's such a privilege to be on the podcast to tell you a bit about my novel. The Peak is an international thriller. It's set in Hong Kong, Shanghai, Beijing, and Canberra. And at its heart, it's about a love triangle that takes place. During the 1997 handover of Hong Kong, from the UK to the People's Republic of China, two young men, Sebastian and Charlie, traveled to Hong Kong where they fall in love with a young Chinese woman, Chloe. Their love will test Sebastian and Charlie's friendship and loyalty, and ultimately results in a betrayal that haunts all three of them for the rest of their lives. But the book begins some 30 years after that. Sebastian is now a senator. Charlie's his chief of staff. Sebastian receives a mysterious three word message from Chloe's father, and then commits an unspeakable act in Parliament House. In trying to make sense sense of his friend's actions, Charlie now must return through his memories of what happened during their time together in Hong Kong, discovering the horrendous truth of how a love affair can lead to the end of the world. This is a book that I was inspired to write based on my 25 years of working in global affairs, including as a diplomat in Hong Kong at the Hong Kong Consulate. Uh, it's for people who love political thrillers like John LeCarre and Robert Harris, and I'm so glad to have had the opportunity to tell you about it. I really hope you get a chance to read it and enjoy it. Thanks.
Natasha Rai:It is so important, and I think as debut writers, we sometimes forget that it is a two-way relationship and that you are allowed to have your ideas of what is so important to you and your story and your characters, right? Because I think for a lot of debut writers, when you get this offer of publication, you're just like, yep, no matter what. But actually it does. It does actually do you credit and your story credit to go, hang on, what are my non-negotiables?
Holly Brunnbauer:Yes. I think that is important because there is a power imbalance there. Yes. And you do feel this desperation of wanting to get published and you're like, I'll just do whatever. But at the end of the day, you have to stand by that book. Yes. You are going to have to face your readers. And really, they're the people that you have to impress, not the publishers. So you know, are you willing to walk away and stand by your story? And so I had to really ask myself that question. Mm-hmm. Luckily I didn't have to Yes, exactly. Put in position to do that. Exactly, yes. So we had that great meeting and my agent was there, which is really great to have because I was just all excited about talking about the book, and she was asking the practical questions, when is this going to acquisitions, blah blah, blah. You know, just things that I would've been too scared to ask or too caught up in the moment to ask. Mm mm You need someone in your corner to ask those questions. Then we go away and then a week later, so they have their acquisitions every Tuesday and my. Agent emails me with a heading that's like, don't panic, or something like that in capitals. And I was like, what? Don't send me an email like that. And I automatically panicked. And she just says they didn't have time to get the pitch to the group because she was out of the office for a few days. Um, it'll go to the next meeting. And I was like, oh my God, I can't wait. Like my stomach was knots. I couldn't do anything else. Finally, we get to Tuesday, I hear nothing. And I was like, well, that's a bad sign because surely they skip outta that meeting and call you immediately. No, and then we get to the Wednesday and I still, I thought nothing overnight. What's happening? I'm too scared to contact my agent. And then I get a text from her and it says, are you available to chat? Like, I'll give you a call. And I was like, she never calls. She never calls. It's bad news. It's obviously bad news. Why else? She wants to break the news to me. And I was like, I'd prefer an email to be honest, so I can just cry in peace. And then I say, now I think I literally just wrote now. And she took three minutes to call me. And in those three minutes I completely unraveled. I was walking around doing loops in my lounge room. I was crying, I was shaking. I was like, oh my God. Like they don't want it. They think it's shit. I'm shit. It's never gonna be published. This is my last chance. Or like, you know, just completely spiraling, phone rings. I'm like, pull yourself together, woman. Do not cry in front of your agent. And so I'm sort of like answering. I'm like, hello? And she goes, hi Holly. And I think, oh, that's so mean. Why is she so perky when she's about to crush my soul? And then she goes, congratulations. And I was like, I just heard nothing after that. Like we were on the phone for 40 minutes and I completely blanked. I was like, oh my God, that's so amazing. And so I get off the phone with her. 20 minutes later I get another call saying I'd been shortlisted for another award.
Natasha Rai:Oh my God, Holly.
Holly Brunnbauer:The Hawkeye manuscript, um, developmental prize, which was amazing. Um, and then the next day I get another call saying I'd been shortlisted for Adaptable, which is where, go to Brisbane and pitch your manuscript. Which was at that time an unpublished manuscript, uh, to screen professionals. And this all happened within 24 hours and all phone calls, which was just a glut of good news. It was, but you know, the weird thing was Natasha, so one, I couldn't tell anyone, couldn't tell anyone about Shortlists, couldn't tell'em about the book Deal. Two, you know, you would think like you would go out to dinner or you'd buy some, you know, real expensive champagne or something like that. I had a three hour nap the next day. I just sat there at my desk. I, my, my eyes were so heavy I couldn't do any work, and I thought I just lay down for a second and three hours later I woke up. I was drained and exhausted and just like all the adrenaline had run out of my body for sure. Sure, yeah. Like I needed to reboot or something. It was such a weird feeling because I wasn't expecting that. I was expecting that, oh wow, let's celebrate, let's go out to dinner and stuff. And I was like, I'm just tired. I'm so not what I thought I would feel in that moment.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. So, so what did you have to do with those two competitions?
Holly Brunnbauer:So one of them I had to withdraw from because you, you couldn't have a book deal if like, I could be shortlisted, which was great, but you couldn't have a, a book deal in place. Okay. Yeah. So I withdrew from that one and the other one adaptable, I could still be in it because you could be a published or unpublished manuscript, they accept. Oh, right, okay. Which was so good. And I also then applied for a regional arts grant and they funded my trip to Brisbane.
Natasha Rai:Amazing.
Holly Brunnbauer:And so if anyone lives regionally, or even if you don't, your council might have things like that for professional development. And I thought, I mean, even if I had to sell pictures of my feet to get there, I was going to get there, Natasha. So I just, yeah. But then I saw that they had this grant and it's like a 50 page long document. I thought, surely people give up after page 20, but I'm gonna finish this. And then I got the grant. So I was like, I'm going to Brizy.
Natasha Rai:And how was that experience, the adaptable, um, pitching?
Holly Brunnbauer:It was amazing. It was a really great experience. Like nothing's come of it. My, you know, there's no adaptation. I'll just give full, you know, disclosure of that. But I didn't care. Like it was the first time I got to hang out with published authors and I was going to be one. Yes.'cause and there were people that I admired and stuff and I, you know, I hadn't told anyone at that stage that I was going to be published, but I was like, guess what guys? I've got a book deal. And so that felt really great. And they sort of, you know, it was almost like they embraced me and they brought me in and they just told me all the things that I was about to face. And I really loved that. Like, I thought that was really nice. It was almost like an initiation type thing. Uh, just welcoming me sort of to the side of publishing. And now I was gonna see the next phase. Um. The pitching was great. Like you do your first one and then by the time you get to your fifth, like you're just rattling it off and the nerves are gone. So Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Natasha Rai:So just what an amazing few days of complete recognition and acknowledgement and just that kind of evidence that your work was just such high quality. I mean, you've got a book deal, which is the ultimate goal, right?
Holly Brunnbauer:Yeah, I know. But it is weird when you do get a book deal, you think you will feel validated. And what I felt though a lot of the time was scared. I constantly, like even once I had my book deal and I wasn't allowed to tell anyone, um, I thought I'll announce that I have an agent because at least you know I do have a book deal, so that's fine. And I put together my newsletter, I put together my social media announcement, and then I panicked and I emailed my agent and said, can they pull back the book deal? Like, could that happen? And she's like, well, you know, it can always, they can always pull back. Like there's things in there for different reasons, but Holly, like, it's fine. It's not gonna, you know, she, she always talks me off a ledge. I think she, she's used to me now and still. I was like, I'm not hitting send on that newsletter. I. And I did not tell anyone until I announced the book deal.'cause I was in this constant worry that it was going to be taken away. Yeah. Yeah. So now it felt like this thing that I wanted so bad, but it also felt like this thing that could just disappear at any moment. And I was constantly on eggshells, worried that I would put a step wrong. And that's what I'm talking again about that power imbalance that you do constantly feel scared, especially at the start. Now I'm fine to email my publisher, we have a great old chat, but at the start it would take me an hour to like even just write back a sentence to her because I would overthink everything like, well how am I wording this and how is it coming across? And what if she doesn't like me and what if she says, oh no, we found a better romcom. You know? I was just constantly having those thoughts.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. God, it's such a nerve wracking time. Mm-hmm. So then in terms of timing for you, Holly, what are we talking like from when you wrote that first draft to pitching to your agent to getting that contract signed?
Holly Brunnbauer:Yeah, so I, um. So I took a month to plan my story. I did three months to do my first draft.
Natasha Rai:God, that's fast.
Holly Brunnbauer:I'm a fast first, like first draft writer. Um, then I took a month off. But also as I was writing that first draft, I have beta readers reading it hot, hot off the press. Oh,
Natasha Rai:okay. Yeah. So
Holly Brunnbauer:I get like real time feedback as well, which really helps, especially if I ask a question like, what do you think will happen next? And then they'll say something and I'll go, I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna change it. Actually, I'm gonna do something they don't expect. So I love that feedback. And then, so I take a month off. Then I did my second draft, and that took me three months. And then I took that to three other different beta readers.'cause now I need fresh eyes. Mm-hmm. And then again, took a month off, and then I did the third draft in a month. Okay. And then, and then at that point, for me, I was like, I, I'm ready to send it to the agent, but then I, you know, got the award, so then I couldn't. At that stage. That's right. So that's right. So then I just wrote something else. I just wrote a new, like a new story. Okay. I was waiting.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. So, so about 18 months between writing that first a kind of idea that development and then having to wait and then going into Harper Collins.
Holly Brunnbauer:Yeah. So the, the waiting time I guess. Oh God, it's sort of hard.
Natasha Rai:I know it's, it's a while ago. I'm just trying to get a sense of it just so people can understand that.
Holly Brunnbauer:Yeah. Well the idea probably came to me, the first idea came to me in 2022. And then I didn't start it though, start planning it until the end of that year. Mm-hmm. And then, so I wrote it in 2023. That was the year I was working on it. Yes. Uhhuh. And then I got my agent at the start of 2024. Yep. And then, you know, got the Harper Collins deal not long after. Yeah. Um, and then. Yeah. And then it's not coming out until July, 2025. So it's July and it, yeah, so long. So I think it was March that I got the, uh, the book deal. Yeah. And March, 2024, and now it's coming out July, 2025.
Natasha Rai:It's so long.
Holly Brunnbauer:And I remember when they said that, I was like, oh my God, I will have written like two books by then. What are you doing to me? Um, yeah, I just, I could not believe the length of time, and it's such a long time. I think it's almost sickening the length of time because you're in this constant state of stress, prolonged stress.
Natasha Rai:Mm-hmm. Um, and in terms of structural edits and all of that process, how was that generally? Was it okay? Was it stressful?
Holly Brunnbauer:Yeah. I, I think the anticipation of them was more stressful than when I got it. When I got it, I was like, this is my jam. This is my element. I cannot control anything else except for the writing, and this is what I'm here for. Like, I, yes, you know, this is my, you know, my, my zone of genius. I loved it. And I actually loved working with an editor. I learned so much. Like, I think they forget sometimes that we, uh, like, well, maybe you are not, but I, I, I'm an amateur writer, like, I don't have other experience, you know, there's no professional experience there besides writing courses, so I. They'll say something and it's, it's almost like there's this assumption that you know what they're talking about. I'm like, I don't know what you mean. Yeah,
Natasha Rai:yeah. I was the same. I was like, I dunno what that means. I had to Google, sometimes she would be like, you write like this, these types of sentences. I'm like, cool. Then I had to go Google it.
Holly Brunnbauer:Yeah, yeah. You don't know what, what all the, the lingo is. And so I really loved it. Like, I felt like I was learning, and I loved the copy edit. That was probably my favorite. And even my agent, I kept saying to her, I don't know what a copy edit is. Like, what is it? Can you explain it? And she goes, she sort of explained it to me and she goes, don't worry, Holly, you actually really love it. And I was like, when I got it, I knew what she meant because I love rules and I, I'm very finicky and I love detail. So when I saw, like, most people would see like, oh, there's 8,000 changes you need to address. I was like, okay, cool. I had it done in like three days. Nice. It was fine. Like I just, yeah. I loved it.
Natasha Rai:Awesome. Um, I'm so pleased for you. That sounds like, I know you said you were stressed, but it just, it sounds like. Such a dream, especially to have all those other short listings come through at the same time. But one of the other things you mentioned was your, uh, newsletter and, um, getting social media ready. Now you are a social media, like I think you're a social media queen because not only because you're not, you are amazing at it, but I am spectacularly bad at it. Um, and that's actually part of your day job as well. Like you are a virtual assistant, um, and you work with other writers. In fact, you're gonna be working with me next month to help me with my website. Um, is that always been something you've been interested in or how did you get into that line of work?
Holly Brunnbauer:Yeah, so when it comes to, I guess like technology and things like that, I, like, I used to be a teacher and then I moved into what used to be called e-learning, which is online course creation. But there was no courses back there to teach you how to do that. I, it was just a skill that I had picked up because I was interested in technology and I love to. Pick at things and learn things. And I love to learn things myself and tinker. Um, and when I was doing that, I actually became a blogger, but a professional blogger in that I monetized my, you know, my skill and, but I had to teach myself everything. I had to teach myself how to put together a website. I had to teach myself how to build a community, how to send a newsletter, how to do social media. And when I was doing all that, I would have all these requests come in from people saying, I really like your voice. Can you write something for me? And I didn't know what they were talking about. I was like, what do you mean? Just write how you speak? Like what, what's his voice business? Yeah. Um, but through blogging was how I acquired all of those skills. So when I did switch over to, Hey guys, now I think I'm going to write a book, uh,'cause you know, if you wanna come along with me, this is what's happening. I could just transfer those skills over. So everything I've learned has just been me playing around with things. And then. I realized like a lot of other people don't know how to do these things. Like I, I often think like, oh yeah, you know how to use Canva, you know how to use this.
Natasha Rai:Nope.
Holly Brunnbauer:No. Yeah. And like, because I'm in it every day and I'm doing those stuff, but I actually love all of that side of things, of being an author. Like if I could do that all day for myself, I would, um.
Natasha Rai:Oh, that just sends chills down my spine.
Holly Brunnbauer:Whereas I just, yeah. And like you said, I am a very visual person, so I love that. Yes.
Natasha Rai:Because I was gonna say that visual quality that you mentioned earlier really comes through'cause it's, they're so beautifully put together. There is such a distinctive brand as well. That is so, you like, you, like I recognize every time you post. I'm like, that's Holly, without even looking at. Who it is, like the account.'cause it's so distinctive.
Holly Brunnbauer:Yes. And I have my green, my love of green, which apparently is very millennial of me. They're coming after green now. Natasha, how dare they? Oh god. Uh, yeah. So I just acquired skills that way and then I thought, you know what? I'm going to put together a business. I actually, I heard another author on a podcast talk about that she needed a virtual system but she didn't know why she needed one. And I just went and had a like little stalky stalk of her online and I was like, wow, you need to update your website doesn't even have your latest book. You need to update your bio. You need to have, um, your events here. You need to do this, need to do that. I just wrote this whole list for her.'cause I just get like that sometimes. And I was like, here are all the things you need. And before I was about to send it, I was like, hold on. I know how to do all that stuff. What if I tell her that I can do that stuff for her? And so that's how it started.'cause she was like, okay, I'll just hire you to do it. Like,'cause I knew exactly what she needed. Um. And then from that I was like, okay, I'm a virtual assistant now. Does anyone else want work? And then it's just filtered through from word of mouth, which has been great. You know people, yeah. They can see that I know what I'm doing. Yes. And that I can help other people. And so, which is like the best form of marketing, isn't it? Recommendations and word of mouth. Because then people are like, she's solid. She knows what she's doing. Look at this amazing thing she did for me. Yeah. Yeah. So that's how it sort of all came about. And I sort of have realized what. I wanna do, like, I don't wanna do everything for everyone. I think at the start I was kind of doing everything and now I was like, no, I specialize in branding websites, newsletters, and I don't do people's social media, but I do a strategy session to teach them how to do it. Okay. Because I one, most authors cannot afford a social media VA ongoing. Only those who are perhaps full-time bestsellers.
Natasha Rai:Yes, for sure.
Holly Brunnbauer:Yeah. Or they have a really great, you know, day job that pays really well and they can supplement that, that's fine, but most people can't. And also, I just think it's a really handy skill to have. So I like to actually sit there and tailor a strategy to a person at the point that they're at. Like if they're very new to social media. I'm not gonna say, you have to do this reel and you have to dance like a monkey and you know you need to do these things. Um,'cause they're not gonna do it. Mm-hmm. So I'm like, very basic. I'm like, so just do this and just do the, you know what I mean? Okay. And if they are someone who's very on camera, I'm like, right, we can go, we can start from this point with you and now these are the things that I would recommend that you do.
Natasha Rai:Okay. So then without kind of asking you to give too much free advice, what would you say or what is your advice to writers? It, it sounds like what you're saying is, and I'm just gonna paraphrase, start from where you are. Like, start with what you feel comfortable with. Is that right?
Holly Brunnbauer:Yes, absolutely. But I find you do have to push yourself out of your comfort zone. So one thing that I Yeah, I know, and Natasha, I heard you talk, you say something on one of the episodes where you said, oh, I go to post and I think that's too boring and I don't Yes. And I, I wanna talk to you about that. You need to reframe it. What you are posting isn't boring. It's relatable. Mm. Anything that you think is boring is very normal to other people, and they probably wanna have a talk about it because if you are just posting the big, exciting things and I'm at this festival and I'm doing that, the, the other people can't relate. Like, yeah, they'll be like, that's cool. Natasha's doing really cool things, but they can't really have a conversation with you about that. And so I'll give you an example, two times in my life when I've had the most dms that I've ever had in my life was one when I announced my book deal. Fantastic. Amazing. Great. Thank you people. The other time was when I talked about how I made Mee Goreng noodles and how my cousin makes Mee Goreng noodles. I just jumped on my stories one day. I don't know why. I was just like, oh, I didn't realize people made them different way. My dms like blew up. It took me a week to get through it. People wanted to tell me how they make their big green noodles and which way they thought was the proper way. And people who never comment, you know how people lurk, which I lurk to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. People who never have a chat all of a sudden just jumped in and want to have a conversation. And you might be thinking, Holly, but how does that relate to book sales? And the way it relates is that you are connecting with people. You're not always selling with them. You don't wanna create, you don't need more followers. You need a stronger connection with the ones that you already have. So you need to talk to them about things they wanna talk about. And apparently noodles is something people wanna talk about.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. Okay.
Holly Brunnbauer:But the other thing to remember is that people buy from people that they like. And I'm not saying you have to be a likable person, but what I mean is you have to have a like-mindedness with people. So there has to be something there that they gravitate towards that isn't just your book. Because you are only, you know, your book's out for a very small period of time. You can't just go back into your writing cave and not be on social media and front up and be like, Hey guys, sorry I haven't been here for a while. Uh, but now I have a book out because then that's transactional. Yeah. You haven't put in the effort. You haven't, like, you are just there to sell to someone and they're going to sense that immediately. You have to have these ongoing relationships. And then when it, when it does come time, when your book's out, people are so excited for you, they wanna support you, whether they buy it or not. They might share it, they might recommend it to a friend, but you know, you ask someone that they feel is their friend and is like them. So that's one of my top tips.
Natasha Rai:Okay. I feel like you've just blown my mind in like hundred different ways. I've got, I've got more. See, because I never, like, I knew it theoretically that you, you can use social media to connect with people, but. I guess, because I don't necessarily always connect with people like that. I just had assumed that the type of people who might connect with me wouldn't. But that is obviously not true.
Holly Brunnbauer:Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna give an example of not talking about your book, uh, and how, you know, you can still talk about topics and themes. Kylie Orr who I think has been on this podcast before, uh, she's a great example of social media and her newsletter because she talks about things that, uh, so she has a newsletter called, If I'm Honest, and she talks about things that outrage her, and they always have a feminist spin and she's, you know, really, um, dismantling the patriarchy and stuff like that. And so she's talking about something, not about her book. You know when you read her book that they're going to have themes like that in there. Mm-hmm. So she's just talking about things that are on topic, you know, especially for women.'cause that's her target reader. Yes. Yeah. You know what I mean? And so I know, like, I honestly love her newsletter. I will make a cup of tea. I will sit down and I will read it. But I also know whenever I front up to her, I will stop my scroll because I know I'm gonna learn something or I'm gonna be provoked in some way. And I just, you know, I think that's a really clever way of making sure she's always there. You know, people know who she a, who she is. She gets asked a lot to, uh, host, you know, interview people for events and things like that. And the reason that is, is because when her book's not out, she doesn't go and hide. Mm. She's still on camera. You see her speak. You can tell she's a great speaker. She's very funny, she's very witty. So she's front of mind. And then when she goes and does those events, her book is there at those bookstores when she's interviewing people. So she's making sales. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And I'm not saying Kylie does this in a strategic way. I think she just, that is her. Yeah. But it actually works in her favor.
Natasha Rai:And so, and so what about different social media platforms? Like is your, again, is your, does your advice come back to where are you at now and what is suitable to you?
Holly Brunnbauer:Yeah, I think you need to find somewhere that you are comfortable being at. Mm-hmm. So maybe that's not even a social media platform. Maybe that is substack. Mm-hmm. Or maybe you wanna start a podcast and interview people. It doesn't have to be social media platform. Okay. You do have to have a level of comfort because I think what I hear all the time from authors is, I hate social media. I don't wanna be there. Now just think about that. If someone rocked up to a party and they said, I don't wanna be at this party, and they stood in the corner and they folded their arms. Mm-hmm. Do you think anyone's gonna wanna sit with that person? No, of course. Or approach them? No. Yeah. So you are bringing that energy to social media if that's how you feel about it. And I honestly, even if your publisher says you should be on social media, I disagree. I think you should be somewhere you feel comfortable, because if you're bringing that vibe, it's not gonna work anyway.
Natasha Rai:Yes. Yeah. That's so true.
Holly Brunnbauer:And maybe that's not the medium where you express yourself. Maybe you do need long form, so like a substack or a newsletter, or maybe you do wanna have a chat and you want to create a YouTube channel or you know, or a podcast or something like that. Or maybe you instead go to your local library and say, Hey, do you have authors booked in? I'd love to interview them. I'll read their book and, and ask them the questions you can get out and, you know, be in the community in some way that feels comfortable to you.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. So when you, and you don't have to get specific, but when you're working with writers who maybe are, are deathly terrified or just uncomfortable
Holly Brunnbauer:Yeah.
Natasha Rai:With any real kind of publicity, how do you approach that?
Holly Brunnbauer:So I just say don't talk about yourself, talk about other people. Oh, I see. And also that's a great thing to do. Like talk about other books that are in your genre. Talk about other authors, support other people. Um, I don't think you need to talk about yourself until you feel comfortable to do that. But the other thing I think is, especially for women, I think it's really hard for us to do that. But what I say is lie your freak flag. And that means you tell people who you are and what you're about. So own that. Own that. Like you don't always have to be talking about your book.'cause like I said, you're trying to strengthen that connection. So if you like something else, if you like, I don't know, knitting, swing dancing, if you like making salami, I don't know if you like pugs like me, just tell people who you are because this is your platform. If people don't like it, they'll bugger off. That's true. Yeah. But what you'll do is you'll actually attract the people who do like it, and they'll stay, and you'll be having a good old chat with people who like what you like. Therefore, you are actually going to enjoy the experience. Like when I front up to social media, I never think I'm going to advertise to people or market them to sell my book. I'm like, I wanna talk to my friends. So I've, you know, I talk about things that of interest to me. Motherhood, pugs, building a house, other things. And all those people who like that, they're going to come to me. And yes, maybe some of my readers, they're probably not, you know, they might not be at an age if they're mothers or maybe they haven't, you know, chosen to be a mother or whatever. So they're not, they're gonna tune out for that part. That's fine. That's okay. Yeah. Yeah. But it's my life and it's my platform.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. That's true. So I'm gonna talk about it's Yeah, exactly. Because I know I'm much more comfortable posting about books I've read and loved. Yes. That's, I love doing that because I'm like, oh, let's, I'm so excited about this book. Um, yes.
Holly Brunnbauer:And people will feel that energy, Natasha.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. My god, these are such good tips. I'm, I'm really aware that we are nearly out of time, which is, that's okay. I'm really sad about, because I wanna ask you so much more. Um, but, so just, I mean, you've already given us lots and lots of tips, but I, I suppose I'm curious about if you have anything that you would've, would've helped you or that you wanna pass on to other writers who might be either a, writing on the verge of a publication deal or, you know, I don't know, still looking or submitting any of that. Is there anything that you would pass on from what you know now?
Holly Brunnbauer:Yeah. So I have two things. Is that okay?
Natasha Rai:Of course.
Holly Brunnbauer:Okay. Um, my, my, my first thing is even if you, you know, you're, you don't have a book deal or whatever, please don't feel like you can't immerse yourself in the writing community and that your presence isn't welcomed or valid. I promise you it is. Uh, you can start that damn newsletter or post on social media without ever knowing if you're going to be published. You can be part of the writing and reading community, and you're welcome to be there. Do not think that, yeah, that it's not a space for you and that you have to wait for permission. I started my newsletter three years ago. I didn't know if I'd ever get published, but I still freaking sent it every month, you know what I mean? And I just write about random. I wrote about my personal life, I wrote about my writing life, whatever the books I love. Just do that. Just tell people again who you are, and they'll come to expect it. The ones who don't like it, they can go away, and the ones that do, they'll stick around. And then when you have that book deal, they're gonna be so damn excited for you. So that's my first tip. My other one is to get feedback. Feedback is so valuable when you're writing, especially when you start because you have this beautiful confidence that everything you write is amazing. And I promise you it's probably not, uh, it probably is, maybe yours is. Mine definitely wasn't like what I was writing. Oh my God, a cringe so bad. But you need that feedback because you do have a confidence that you don't have later on, unfortunately, when you second guess yourself about everything. Um, but you'll just learn a lot. But get feedback from a professional, like a course do the Australian Writers Center so that you're getting feedback that's not in a. You know, some people can be very blunt and they're not really aware of your feelings. Whereas people who give feedback all the time, they're really used to like giving you, you know, telling you the things you're doing well as well. You actually need to hear that. You just be like this, these are your strengths. So then, you know, to lean into them, but also here's some things you might not be aware of and here's how you can fix them. You need feedback like that. So that would be my other thing. Don't send something off that's never seen the eyes of another professional. Um, even if it's like, do, do not send it. Like I'm not talking about your friend or your partner or something like that. Someone who's not gonna blow smoke up your Yeah, yeah. We know what, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Natasha Rai:No, no, that is excellent advice because yeah, because I think a lot of people, um, get such glowing feedback maybe from family and friends and think, okay, this is great, but that is excellent advice actually. You've given us so much. So I'm really grateful for your generosity.
Holly Brunnbauer:Oh, thank you Natasha.
Natasha Rai:I've had such a blast talking to you, Holly. Um, thank you again for coming on and for the listeners out there, What Did I Miss? is out on the 2nd of July. Uh, so it will be out by the time this episode airs. Um, so read it and then you can come back and listen to what we're talking about. Thanks, Holly.
Holly Brunnbauer:Thank you so much.
Natasha Rai:Bye.
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