The Book Deal
Motivation and inspiration for emerging writers, helping them pave their own pathway to publishing success.
The Book Deal
Natasha, Tina and Madeleine are titillated by their ONE YEAR of The Book Deal
Celebrating One Year of The Book Deal Podcast: Memorable Moments and Insights
In this special one-year anniversary episode of The Book Deal Podcast, hosts Tina Strachan, Madeleine Cleary, and Natasha Rai reflect on their favorite moments and insightful interviews from the past year. They share their most memorable quotes from guest authors, delve into the nuances of measuring success as a debut author, and discuss the benefits of having an agent. The episode is filled with laughter and gratitude, as the hosts celebrate their journey and the wonderful community they’ve built.
This week's Debut in the Spotlight is Billie Rooney with her debut picture book, Creature Corridors (CSIRO, February 2025) and illustrated by Anke Noack.
00:00 Welcome to the Book Deal Podcast
00:42 Celebrating One Year of Podcasting
01:41 Reminiscing Over the Past Year
07:37 Natasha's Favourite Moments
17:05 Tina's Favourite Moments
25:18 The Importance of Longevity in Publishing
25:52 Introducing 'Creature Corridors' by Billie Rooney
27:11 Navigating the Publishing Industry
28:19 Building Relationships with Booksellers
32:01 Quotes and Trivia Fun
38:42 The Role of Agents in a Writing Career
48:27 Celebrating One Year of the Podcast
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This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories, the authors behind your favorite books.
Tina Strachan:No matter what sage of writing you are at, we've got you covered. I'm Tina
Madeleine Cleary:Strachan. And I'm Madeleine Cleary. And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors one deal at a time. The book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners, the land and waters, which it's recorded on. And pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
Tina Strachan:Welcome everybody to this very special episode of the Book Deal podcast. It is our one year anniversary. Woohoo. There's all three of us here. Uh, myself, Tina Strachan, and Madeleine Cleary. And Natasha, Rai? Yay. And we're all here to have a very special episode to celebrate one year off the pod.
Madeleine Cleary:We're having a party on a Monday night and I've got my cup of tea. Yeah,
Tina Strachan:you've
Natasha Rai:got tea.
Madeleine Cleary:Hopefully someone has wine.
Natasha Rai:At least one of us. Have you
Madeleine Cleary:got Tash?
Natasha Rai:I've got water. Sorry.
Oh man.
Natasha Rai:I know. Look,
I tried. I even have a non-alcoholic margarita. Maybe put salt
Tina Strachan:on the rim and everything just to make it feel a little bit more special. We were gonna do, do like
Madeleine Cleary:a little, we were gonna do like a little champagne, weren't we? We were. Do that next.
Tina Strachan:Alright. Yeah, yeah. To do. We'll say it before in person when we do an in person one. Um, oh, so this is so special. I can't believe it's been a year already. So we're super excited and we thought. What we might do to celebrate is to have a little reminisce over the year that has been, um, we've had lots of amazing guests on the pod and lots of amazing discussions, and we wanted to pull out, each of us has chosen some of our favorite, um, I guess quotes or interviews and guests that's we've, that we've had. Um, but first I just wanna say thank you. To Madeleine and Natasha for being incredible co-hosts on the book deal podcast. Um, couldn't do it, couldn't have done it without you. Um, it's been so super fun and I've, I feel very privileged to have been able to spend the last year getting to know you girls and just chatting away. And it's still a bit, um, it still blows me away that people actually listen and I often just love just chatting to you ladies. Anyway, so it's just kind of cool that we record it and people get to listen to it as well.
Madeleine Cleary:I agree meeting this has been so, so much fun. And um, I'll never forget, and I think Natasha was on the call as well, when you announced to our debut crew we're all on a zoom that you were going to start a podcast. And I remember feeling so incredibly jealous. I was like, ah, I do a podcast as well. Uh, so I think I messaged you that night and said, I think it was about three seconds later. Would you accept a tag along? And Natasha, you have
Natasha Rai:a funny and interesting story about that too, don't you? Yeah. It's so funny because, and I just wanna say before I tell you, I'm so grateful that I'm a, because I'm a recent addition to the team, so thank you. Having not that recent now. Not that recent now. Yeah, you're right. But it was so funny'cause when Madeleine Manu asked me if I would consider kind of hosting maybe one episode a month, I was like, yes. Because literally that night when Tina, you said you were gonna host a podcast, I was like, oh my God, I should get in touch with her. And then I did it'cause I was as per usual. Scared and shy, and then you two announced it and I'm like, dammit, I could have done it. I shoulda have done it. But anyway, here, I'm now here You're, and you took
Madeleine Cleary:that a secret as well, like we're obviously good friends. You never told me that until I said, would you like to come? I know. Well, because it felt
Natasha Rai:a bit shish to be like, I wanted to do that.
So.
Madeleine Cleary:Well, it all ended in the right thing. I think the three of us. It's been so, so much fun. I think that's been the joy and the highlight for me in the last couple of years in getting to know the industry is this podcast. And, and I think about it as well. In the last year, we've all, we've, between the three of us, we've published four books in that time as well. Mm-hmm. So we've also started a podcast during probably some of the busiest times of our lives too.
That's right.
Madeleine Cleary:Um, and I. Cringe now to think and look back on some of our early episodes. Um, and wonder, well, I haven't listened back, but I, I'm just imagining if I think I'm gonna cringe now, what would it be like in sort of three to four years when we listen back on all our anxieties and concerns and thoughts?
Natasha Rai:No, I think that those are all actually. Beautiful reminders of where we were or are in our journey. Because you know, like I was thinking about this the other day. I was having a chat to a friend and I was talking about, you know, worrying about my second manuscript, et cetera, and they were like, did you just hear what you just said? And I'm like, I know, two years ago I was so worried about getting published full stop. And here I am going, oh, you know, what's gonna happen with my second one and when should I submit? And it's just. It's so interesting and exciting how things move on and how our, maybe not worries, but focus changes. So I think those early episodes, if you listen back to them, they're just gonna be beautiful reminders of where you were, right?
Tina Strachan:Mm-hmm. And that's why it's so, so nice to be. Have the whole debut crew and we've still got six months left right. Or five months left of the year where we get to celebrate the releases of all the incredible debut crews books that are coming out. Yeah, for sure. Um, yeah, so that's been another real. Real benefit to be able to support the debut crew this year as well. And we hope to keep doing it, don't we? We just, with every debut crew that comes past, so hopefully debut crew 2026, we can, we can roll on with the debut spotlights, but
Madeleine Cleary:Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
Tina Strachan:Get in contact.
Madeleine Cleary:Yes, that's right. Sure. That's never too early. I'm sure there'll be lots of ERs. We, um, actually our Melbourne 2025 day boot crew is catching up with the 2026 day boot crew in Melbourne next. Oh. Wow. Natasha's looking at me. Like, what? I'm so jealous.
Tina Strachan:That's fomo. Big time.
Madeleine Cleary:Yeah, me too. Yeah, we're ex It's exciting. So, um, Leanna Shaw, I met Leanna at an event I did with Anne Freeman and Leanna's the debrief for next year. And we we're just chatting and we sort of thought, oh, it might be a nice idea now to actually talk now before things start getting really, really hectic. Um, and, you know, if we, if there's any advice that we can impart, then of course. Take that. Um, but I think the crew, from the sounds of it, everyone I've spoken to for next year, they're, they're really brilliant and I'm so excited for next year. But we still have five months left of this year. Yes. So we've got lots of new, lots more exciting titles to look forward to. Mm-hmm. It'll
Tina Strachan:never get old, that feeling will of, of the debut.
Madeleine Cleary:No, that's right. And then Tina, I think after your third book comes out this year, you can probably say you are no longer a debut author. Yeah.
Tina Strachan:Probably three books in. That's sad, isn't it? Alrighty. Well, we, um, I'm excited to go and revisit these interviews and quotes some of our favorite quotes, um, from the year that was, and who wants to go first?
Hmm?
Madeleine Cleary:What should be your first team? Natasha. Oh, Natasha. Oh, Natasha. Oh gosh. Well you've got two Natasha, so maybe you should Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
Natasha Rai:Okay, I'll go first. So, um, I've picked these two interviews or these two guests for different reasons. So the first person I was thinking about is, um, Zaheda Gaheni She is the author of Pomegranate and Fig and her date that came out, uh, in 2023. So the reason I really love that interview, uh, was because she so generously gave so many beautiful. Tips around writing practice and the one that blew my mind, even though everyone else seems to already do it, is um, her idea of setting intention for each time you sit down. So even if you decide that you're going to use your writing time to research, it doesn't feel like. You've wasted time or that you haven't written anything, because that was the intention and there was just some, it sounds so simple, but there was just something so good about that, that it actually just changed my writing practice. Mm-hmm. Um, because I now sit down and have an intention and if the intention is to yeah, research or to read, read some, to do some reading in relation to what I'm working on, it still feels like progress. So that's what I really liked. It's get Chuck,
Madeleine Cleary:don't you, when you are not. Progressing word count where you think, yes, yes. Well, I'm not progressing anything and I'm failing and I'm getting behind and stuck. But really it's even, even if you're not on your laptop, even if it's just deciding to take half an hour to go for a walk and just think about the book. Exactly.
Natasha Rai:It do writing. Yeah. And word count is not the only measure. Mm-hmm. And, and from there, you know this idea that if you write your a writer, there's no. There's no test or something you have to pass to qualify as a writer.
Zaheda Ghani:Well, should I play the quote?
Natasha Rai:Yes, please.
Zaheda Ghani:There isn't really a criteria for whether you are a writer or not, that kind of, um, wanting to pass a gate or earning it as a right is not a thing. If we are writing, because that's where we like to have our creative outlet, then we are a writer. It doesn't matter beyond that.
Natasha Rai:I like that.
Zaheda Ghani:Yeah, perfect.
Natasha Rai:Exactly, because you know, even, um, meeting people who are writing or you know what we all did, writing in secret maybe, or writing and loving it, but not being able to talk about it, it just makes me sad. So that just, it's a beautiful message. If you're right, you're a writer.
Madeleine Cleary:Yeah. I think you had to get overcome the shyness then too. Mm-hmm. When you are before the gate, the so-called gate. Yes, exactly.
Tina Strachan:Yeah. What is that about? I don't know what that's about, but that was definitely me too. So, and I, I do wish that I didn't do that.'cause I feel like just all those years that I missed out on making connections, like I don't think I would've got published any sooner.'cause I still would've had to do the. Years of writing and everything, but I would've made connections, um, sooner, just missed out on that community a little bit sooner. And, you know, maybe I actually would've got published a bit sooner because I would've spent more time. And because I would've recognized that, Hey, you can actually do this. Why are you doing it in secret? Actually, take the time now. Put effort in now maybe. So anyone who's listening, who is writing in secret, get out there and get into the community. It's just. Yeah, a step, a step forward. Hey. Mm-hmm. So, Taj, but you had a second one, didn't you? You had two quotes'cause you found it
Natasha Rai:hard to choose. Yeah, I did find it hard to choose. Um, so my second interview guest is Shankari Chandran, the Miles Franklin winner. Um, and so the, her book that won the Miles Franklin Award's, chai Time at Cinnamon Gardens, so the reason I loved her words, um, in that interview is that. To have somebody of that, like, to have that kind of success.'cause she's had five books out, I think here it's five. And to have won such a major literary prize.'cause in the interview she talks about how at one point she had given up, she'd given up on the idea of publication, but what she never gave up on was writing. Um, and I love this idea that she says that she writes her everything, her feelings into it. She, she writes everything she's experiencing because. It resonated with me.'cause I feel I do that in my characters. Like I write things that I'm experiencing in the world and I think a lot of writers do that. You know, I heard Harley Scribner say when she was asked about is she is one of the characters her, and she's like, you know, aren't we all in all of our characters? So
that
Natasha Rai:just spoke to me more about, you know, what we as writers put into our work regardless of publication. So I just really loved the way she talks about what she puts into her writing.
Madeleine Cleary:It also astounded me that, um. She felt like back, sort of, it was like 10 years ago, she had to change a character that the, um, intern Oh yes. A white character and that, and then, and then after, you know, all those years of having those rejections and um, just c try time came out of that. Well, I don't. Okay. I don't think this is gonna get published. I don't, I'm just gonna write what I wanna write for my family.
Mm.
Madeleine Cleary:And then that becomes, you know, this highly acclaimed piece of work. That's one miles Frank. Exactly.
Natasha Rai:And in so many ways, she's, you know, she's the trailblazer of her people like me.'cause now I've written a book with a person of color as the main character and all, everyone mainly in it. And no one. Thought anything weird about it or no one said, oh, this is weird that there's, you know, a brown person in it. So she's a trailblazer.
Madeleine Cleary:Mm. It's, um, well, hopefully in future Ultimo can, well, they've got the rights now. They can go and retract and, and have it the way it should have always been. Exactly. Such an interesting episode. I love that. And, and it was a fantastic interview, Natasha.
Natasha Rai:Thank you. Yeah, I read it. I was having her on.
Madeleine Cleary:Everyone just take notes, like just, I think the whole episode. Just take notes. But this is a great, great quote here. Okay. So if you're interested, go back to episode 36 with Shankari. This is just a little taster.
Shankari Chandran:But writing for me is incredibly therapeutic, and it's really part of that process of maintaining hope. I write a lot of my anger, frustration, my fears, my existential anxieties, my concerns about injustices. I work through a lot of that in my writing.
Madeleine Cleary:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Love that. It's very therapeutic.
Mm.
Madeleine Cleary:Would you, do you find it therapeutic, Tina writing?
Tina Strachan:Um, yeah, I mean, I don't think I write about, um, what Karri writes about with, you know, she's obviously coming and that's very good, sort of deep and, um, meaningful sort of, you know, fodder for her, for her writing. So I feel for her that's like she just said it's therapy, right. Um, it's probably more, not, not so much therapy in the same sense, but. It's a kind of more therapy as in almost for me, like a mindfulness or a, you know, just like exercises. I think it's just as important, right? Like it's exercising my mind and my brain and I mean, it's something in there that needs to come out and it's thoroughly enjoyable. So I literally have joy from it, so, or get joy from it. So, um, for me it's important. For my health. Right. Writing to keep myself sane, I think. Yeah. What
Natasha Rai:about you guys?
Tina Strachan:It's cheaper
Natasha Rai:than therapy, isn't it? Yeah,
Tina Strachan:sure is. But
Natasha Rai:with the right therapist, it's totally worth the
Tina Strachan:cost. This is true. This is true. Writing won't fix everything. Unfortunately, if only.
Natasha Rai:I think, sorry,
Madeleine Cleary:I had to, had to insert that. Oh no. And for those who don't know, Natasha is counselor therapist. So are we allowed to say that on air?
Tina Strachan:Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary:It's not a
Tina Strachan:secret. Not a secret. Not a secret. That's why when you listen to her episodes, you just feel so, you know, relaxed and, and, and we should say like, you've just had your own session even. That's great.
Madeleine Cleary:Well, that's the great thing, like we've got this and for the listeners we should, we're very sorry that you're not part of this, but we have our own WhatsApp. Um, chat where we send each other voice memos throughout the day, pretty much every day. And it is kind of like your own personal therapy session, like, because you just voice all your, and I'm just gonna quote Shankar here. Anger, frustration, fears, existential anxieties, concerns about injustices. Um, and yeah. Really helpful and I have to say, yeah, Natasha, when you respond, it is very calming. You, you have a very beautiful voice, I think. Yes.
Natasha Rai:It's very relaxing. Thank you. Thank you.
Tina Strachan:See, I know, I get excited when I see a little voicemail, like, you know, I see, oh, there's a message and I open it up. But if it's a voicemail, um, I get, yeah. I'm very excited.
Madeleine Cleary:We know, Tina, you've, um, you.
I've left a few in my time,
Madeleine Cleary:and Tina always, um, does her voice memos when she's in the car driving. So we always hear the Exactly,
Tina Strachan:yes. I love that actually, because I'm, I'm constantly driving. Does I feel like I'm constantly driving. Uh, well they were great Natasha. I agree. They were some of the best quotes of the year. I think. So. Tina,
Madeleine Cleary:what about you? What's your. Your favorite moment in this, um, year's podcast.
Tina Strachan:Now I do have to say I found it really hard and you girls maybe choose just one, and it was very hard. So, but I, I decided to go with one. Um, I have a couple of honorable mentions that'll go, it'll touch on just, um, after we chat about this one. Oh,
Madeleine Cleary:give us, give us your honorable mentions. No, I'm gonna do them afterwards. I think
Tina Strachan:they flow really well into, into yours, Madeleine, but, um. So this one is from episode 12 of the Book Deal Podcast, where I interviewed Catherine Collette, and lots of people will know. Catherine Collette, um, podcast host for the first time podcast, and the next step. Podcast and, um, multi published author as well. Now she does coaching, um, like, uh, author coaching and offers a whole heap of a whole heap of sort of helpful, um, workshops and programs for authors. So, um, and I love her posts that she does on Instagram. Sometimes they're just so perfectly timed and you, you read her words and you go, that's exactly what I was feeling today. And it's, she's just really raw and honest about, um. Publishing and authoring and writing, and sometimes it's practical, sometimes it's, you know, how to think, um, getting your mind in the right spot, things like that. Um, so this one we, I thought was actually probably quite relevant to. Recently discussions that we've had recently, it's sort of almost back to our last discussion, Madeleine, where we were chatting about author disappointment and sometimes that relates to sales
of your
Tina Strachan:book when you get your sales through, because you look at that as a measure of whether you've been successful or not, right?
Madeleine Cleary:Mm. Should I play the quote? Yes, please.
Katherine Collette:To write better books and, and, you know, focus on the things that you can control. Sales is not a thing that you have any control over.
Mm-hmm.
Katherine Collette:Um. But the measure of success that sales is, sales is a single measure of success and it's one that you have no control over. I think it's a really crude measure of success and there needs to be much, um, a much more nuanced, I suppose, way of thinking about, um, how a book fairs in the world. I think the emphasis on sales I see most in the debut author moment. It feels very parcel fail for debut authors. I, I, I think that really fades and I think as you get an author further down the line, of course everyone wants every single book they write to be a bestseller and universally AOR and all of those things. But down the line people don't talk about sales so much. Whereas the debut experience, people think if this does not sell well, my career is over.
Tina Strachan:Mm. Good one just summed it up perfectly, didn't it? Mm. It's very much, you know, a vibe that we're feeling at the moment. I mean, we, it's, you know, Catherine's talking about, um, debut authors and we were chatting about, I guess just how to navigate that debut time. And I asked her for advice on, you know. For us as debuts and all everybody else in the debut crew, what's to be expected? And this is such a big thing, right? Once the glow of the debut experience is over, you know, you've seen your book on the shelf and you've had your launch and then, you know, I guess reality, uh, sets in when it comes to getting sales figures and, um, yeah, can, can sometimes be a little bit, um, unexpected for authors. I think, uh, very much. Yeah, I totally agree with Catherine. And, you know, don't, a lot of people do think, you know, if it doesn't sell well then my career's over or, or take it to heart. But it isn't just sales that determines, um, if you're going to be successful or not, or even if that book is going to be successful or not, and especially not in your debut year.
Madeleine Cleary:I have so many thoughts about this, and I think, um, yeah, of course sales is just one measure. I mean, everybody wants to be a bestseller, of course. Um, and your publisher wants you to sell as well as you can. Um, I think though, if you've developed a really strong and good relationship with your publisher, sales becomes less of a thing because the publisher sees all the investment they've put into you, and it has been a huge time investment on their part. An effort and energy to get your first book out if it doesn't do so well. But if you've got that solid backing from your publisher, you know, they see you as a career author. And I think that's the difference, isn't it? Because we've seen examples in the past of where authors have struck out on their second or their third book. Um, but I do think there is a little, a little bit of, um, um, perhaps. Energy around the debuts, like you only debut once. And so publishers see, you see this as a great opportunity to see what happens. And sometimes you get, and we've been talking about this, sometimes you get the backing, the financial backing, including in marketing and publicity, um, that publisher might give. And some books just don't have that. Much of that. And that's a decision that's made by the publisher. Again, it's completely out of your control. Um, and so that can have a massive influence in sales too, and that's completely outside of your control.
Natasha Rai:Mm-hmm. Yeah. But you know on that as well, and I know we've been talking about this, the three of us, I. There's also a difference I think, between a bigger publisher, like say the Big Five to a mid or to a small publisher, and maybe, I don't know this is true, it's just an impression. Maybe a smaller publisher with fewer titles every year is more likely to take a risk as in or take a chance on you. And help you build that career because they aren't looking, as you said on that one book, doing a certain set, you know, cer certain way in the market. So there's that. And the other thing as well, just from my own experience, even if you don't get the full. You know, fireworks and everything thrown at your book. The nothing's stopping you from going out there and pitching yourself to places. And I think as long as you are having those conversations with your publicist and they know what you want to do, like, it's not like if, if they don't put everything they have behind your book, it's gonna sink. Like you have no right. You definitely have agency over that part. You can definitely go out there and, and do what you can and what you feel comfortable with.
Madeleine Cleary:Because I think what that big, I suppose it's not, it's less, um, publicity and more marketing, at least this is what I've observed over the last sort of seven months watching all of our debuts launch. Um, what marketing does, you know, things like getting you better reading campaigns and good reading campaigns and putting you on net galley. And so, because that's all a cost to the publisher, um, having, you know, like gift with purchase. Things like that. Like these are all costly things, um, that gives you that immediate push out. Um, and obviously having stock in stores, but in the end, if you haven't written a good book, you'll get that immediate sales. But the word of mouth is not going to happen. And in the end it is word of mouth that sells books.
Natasha Rai:Exactly. Mm-hmm.
Tina Strachan:I feel like that was. Uh, because I've had this conversation, we've been having this conversation for a little while, and I've definitely had conversations around this with other authors, like, how, but how did that debut just do so well say like some, some, you know, internationally bestselling, and it just, I just think, how is, how is that done? And, and. You know, we go around, we seem to just go around in circles and keep coming up with theories as to why. But what I think what we always come back to is, well, the book has to be solid and has to be a good book and with longevity, and that's like even if it is, you know, a bestseller straight outta the gates, it's that longevity that you're actually after. You know, what good is it, you know, having all these sales straight out the gates because Publish publicity's pushed it, but it's only short-lived and it doesn't get reprinted and you know, I don't know, it just sort of fades away. You want something that's gonna be around for a while and people are gonna talk about for a while and, um, want more from you. You know, I think most people wanna write more than one book, don't they? Once they get published. For sure. So, sure. Yeah. It's that coming back to having a strong book and longevity.
Madeleine Cleary:Mm-hmm. Yeah, great.
Billie Rooney:Hi, I'm Billie Rooney and my picture book Creature Corridors was published this year by C-S-I-R-O publishing with warm and vibrant illustrations by Anke Noack. This book is for all children, especially those who love animals and who wanna find out more about how we can protect Australia's amazing wildlife in a world where human development is taking over the spaces where wild creatures live. How can we make sure these animals still have spaces to move about safely, and what can we do to help? This is a book about wildlife corridors, those safe pathways that animals need when they go out searching for food or shelter. These can look like a simple row of trees or a bridge over a highway. What they have in common is that they connect habitats rather than divide them from the kangaroo to the platypus, from small birds to the giant, Cassie. And from Christmas Island crabs to the lizards who live in our own backyards. This book provides a hopeful message about how we can all play a part in looking after our environment. Creature Corridors is inspired by my love for nature and the outdoors. It is a wish for a world where animals and humans can thrive together on this beautiful and precious planet. Thank you to Tina and Madeleine for a chance to share this book with you on the book Deal podcast.
Madeleine Cleary:I think every type of book is different. Like, um, obviously the kid Lit space, Tina is very different from adult. Mm-hmm. In terms of what the publisher's gonna do, literary fiction's gonna be. Different to your commercial rural crime, you know, Outback noir book. Yeah. Um, and so every book is treated differently and that's, I suppose, what publishers have to weigh up when they're looking at budgets and all sorts of things, because. I mean, we all know this. There is, so, there are so many books that are published each year. There's a huge breadth. Um, and sometimes a book that doesn't have that much marketing behind it will do really spectacularly well. And that's fantastic for everybody. Um, and sometimes the ones that do get all the marketing behind it. Don't do well, so it is can kind of, a bit of a gamble as well. Sometimes. It's not necessarily one equals therefore success. So
Tina Strachan:exactly.
Natasha Rai:Mm mm
Madeleine Cleary:Yeah.
Tina Strachan:Just write a good strong book that you love and like go along for the ride, I think. And I dunno, I think that's the best way to tackle it.
Madeleine Cleary:That's right. And I think the, the, um, having bookseller support too, I think is really crucial for getting to that bestseller level that starts with, you know, getting your book in stores and out the front, which is really hard. So that's where the sales come sales team comes into it. But, um, you know. I, I'm, my heart is filled with joy. When I have booksellers say to me, oh, I've been, um, hand selling this just to, to, um, customers and there is nothing better than, um, hand selling for an author. You know, because, um, once your book. Hits after two months release, it goes to the shelf. It's not upfront anymore, so your book's gonna sit on the shelf, probably spy out, not face out. So have a books seller reach for your book and put that into the hands of a customer. That's the most important thing. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. How you craft those relationships with books sellers. Well, that's also in your control, I think. Mm.
Tina Strachan:And join a debut crew.'cause they are very good at going into bookshops and turning your book face cover out whenever they're in there, regardless of how long it's been out for. So it's just like your
Madeleine Cleary:little street team hand selling. I literally hand, hand handheld. I've hand sold both your books, actually. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. There you go. Not even books seller. Oh, it's a, it's a tough one. That's a tough conversation to have, but I think it's important particularly for, I suppose, Deb writers for next year to consider as well. Um, and it's probably something I didn't really think about coming into this year that you will start to see some people having different treatment across the book. And I think being aware of that early on is good because it reduces the amount of, huh, why is this person getting this? And, and the difference, I suppose, in it. Yeah, and maybe it's that we're talking about it and revealing the secrets of the publishing industry, but I think it's pretty obvious though.
Natasha Rai:But also I think it comes back to managing expectations. You know, if, if you see somebody else getting a lot of marketing budget and you get excited'cause you think that's how, what the norm is. Mm-hmm. That goes straight back to that idea of disappointment. So. The only, the best way to do it is to talk to your publisher and find out what the plan is for your book, and then find the gaps that you can fill.
Madeleine Cleary:Mm-hmm. Yes. And often the amount of money that is spent on those books, it might also come down to the advance that they've put aside for that book. And, you know, if, if it's a high advance, then they wanna, the publisher wants to try and make sure that they're getting their money. Back as much as they can as well. Mm-hmm. So there is a very practical business side that is less about the quality of the book and you as an author, and perhaps more from a business perspective too. Exactly.
Natasha Rai:Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary:Important to know. Mm-hmm.
Tina Strachan:It is important to make those relationships, like you said, with Booksellers Madeleine, I was always one who was like, I don't know how to do that. Like, how do I, I don't just, you know, go into bookstores and I'll buy books. No one's really. Um, yeah, I mean, I live somewhere where we don't have lots of small independence either, so, um. I've always found it quite difficult going to the big ones and everyone's flat out and you just don't have a second to even chat to them. So I always found that interesting. And, um, I think we're going to try and get a bookseller on in a few weeks who might be able to help and give us some advice on, for debuts on how to best go in there, how to approach, don't go in on a Monday morning, I've heard no. Or lunchtime. Or a Saturday or a Sunday, but yeah,
Madeleine Cleary:but even if you do,'cause I have done that before and I'm just like, I'm sorry, it's Saturday. And they're like, no, no, no, we're so happy you're here. So booksellers are generally lovely people, but yes, we will Oh yeah, ask the official bookseller the appropriate protocols.
Tina Strachan:That was great. That was a great, uh, quote, great chat and great quote from Catherine. So I did, like I said, I had lots that I couldn't choose. Between though. But I did and I chose Catherine. I thought that was a good one. But I have two honorable mentions and I'm actually gonna read them out and I want you ladies to have a guess who the author is. Okay? I said this quote, okay.
Madeleine Cleary:Testing our knowledge. It's like trivia book your, okay.
Tina Strachan:I love trivia. I do trivia. All my book launches for anybody who is coming 20 any in the next. Quick brown fox on the 2nd of August. August, if you'd like to come. There will be wildlife themed trivia.
Okay. But for now, all right.
Tina Strachan:It was just this surreal fairytale night and I was on a high for the rest of the day, so I got home, took my laxative and logged on for work at 8:00 AM the next day.
Next day. Anyone wanna have a guess?
Natasha Rai:Um, was it Madeleine Cleary?
Well done Natasha. Yeah, I know. Look, it's hard to choose which one of the poo quotes I should have pulled out for Madeleine.'cause we do. You know, we talk about tummy troubles sometimes on the pod.
Madeleine Cleary:When you said that, what Madeleine does anyway, you know when I spoke about cringe, like looking back on episodes and cringing all the episodes where I talked about taking laxatives and oh my gosh, I love that. Now, which episode was that from?
Uh, episode 22. Everybody. Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary:Yeah. Okay. I have another one. That's when I had the author and AOL fairytale night.
Tina Strachan:Mm. Oh, didn't have to take like Steve. Yeah. Yeah. A great story. A great story. Um, now this is one from a very recent episode, actually, which just, I just laughed when I, when I heard it. And I'm, I, sorry. I'm gonna use this for, for today. Okay. Ladies, who is this author? It's a short one. Ready? I was titillated. Oh,
Madeleine Cleary:Natasha. Oh my God. Oh my God. I laughed. I laughed at that episode with Holly. Ow so much. You were just like, I really loved the sex, Holly. I just,
Natasha Rai:I think I was a bit overenthusiastic about how much I loved the sex.
Madeleine Cleary:Well, you were titillated. I think,'cause I think the quote was, was like, Holly was like, oh, you know, I, it wasn't, my intent wasn't to just tate, you know, readers. It was meant to be. And you're like, I was TATed. Well, that was TATed. So it worked. Holly, good work. I was, I actually was on my walk up the thous, like up the mountains and um, I was like, panting. And then that came in my ears and I just like burst out laughing. Um, Natasha's like crying with laughter, by the way, everybody, she can't.
Natasha Rai:Oh my God, I never knew that's why I was gonna come back to haunt me.
Well, you should know by now, as does, uh, some of our other guests that we've had on the pod that we do like to pull quotes out. Um,
Tina Strachan (2):um, which leads me to Madeleine's that shouldn't just be in the quote of this week actually, just titillated. I thought about actually doing a post.
I was titillated doing like little posts.
Madeleine Cleary:Well, Tina, I think next episode we're gonna have to pull out one of your quotes, I reckon, because you, you've gotten both us back, so. Yeah, exactly. They're my favorite. You told me to choose. It was hard. Oh, that's good. Okay, well I'm just gonna play this quote'cause, um. Well, you both know which one it's gonna be, and I, I think we kind of have to choose this one. Mm-hmm.
Tina Strachan (2):It just
Madeleine Cleary:set our socials a fire, a light. It just, um, completely changed our serious podcast into something a little bit wild. All right. I'm just gonna play it. Love.
Samuel Bernard:So horror could, could well be on its way back. Um, and actually this year's Brisbane Writers Festival, I was on a panel called, uh, what Publishers Want, and I was asked this question. Um, and I kind of started talking about how the pendulum, the pendulum swings away and, and then comes back and that kind of stuff. With publishing and post COVID, you know, we really swung away from. The dark themes and the really, you know, dark, dark novels in our society. And so horror was not going well. Um, you know, cozy crime came into its own, had a little, um, really good purple patch, um, lighthearted fiction humor, all doing really well. Um. But it, yeah, I don't know. I had this problem with the pendulum just going, like being really rudimentary, backward and forward. So I kind of compared it to granddad's balls where they just kinda swing around. Um, I don't think I'll be invited back to the pen writers first after that. True. Because like, you know, it, it is not just one side to a net to the other. It's all over the shop. Um, so grandad bowl stuff to, to flo around a little bit.
We'd always invite you back to the pod though, Samuel. It's okay.
Madeleine Cleary:So for those who don't know, that is, um, dunno the episode, uh, Samuel Bernard. Um, we have two parts and this is actually part two. Um, our episode with literary agent zeitgeist agency and also my agent after that as well. So, um, I did warn Sam, I messaged him today and said, um, we're resurrecting granddad's balls. Just tell him back. He's coming back. I said, do you give me permission? He's like, of course. So it's such
Natasha Rai:a good quote.
Madeleine Cleary:Mm-hmm. It's a great quote and. Tina and I actually watched the visual. I think, well actually I think I remember the visual, but I did see the video of us and because Pat, my husband, said to me when I played this earlier today, he's like, why weren't you and Tina like laughing? I'm like, no, no, no. We were laughing, but we had our hands covering our face, trying not to just burst out laughing. As soon as he said granddad's bulls.
Oh, I've had that quoted back to me so many times from people. It really has been a highlight.
Madeleine Cleary:It's a highlight. But I guess, you know, in all seriousness it does make sense because I think if you are, we were talking about trying to write to trends and it is hard to predict a trend and write to a trend, particularly'cause you know, we all know publishing takes a few years once you get signed the contract. You could be all in the cozy crime and writing cozy crime because you think that's gonna be a bestseller, but then it's diverted to horror, you know, a few years later and you've missed that trend. So you've gotta write what you and what, so what I think the message is, you've, you've gotta write the things that you love. Like that's what you should be and what you're passionate about. Um, so there was, there was, um, some good solid, um, advice behind that as well, which I loved. But, um. I did wanna actually talk too about, um, um, getting an agent.'cause I don't think I ever revealed that on the podcast as well.
Tina Strachan:No, I don't think you did. So yeah, that would be really good if you could chat everybody through'cause that's what a lot of people are, you know, wanting advice on.
Madeleine Cleary:Yes, yes. And actually at the, when we interviewed Sam, so this was last year, I think Samuel, um, Samuel wasn't my agent back then. And, um. We had been chatting for a while, and so I'd asked him onto the podcast and, you know, he, we'd sort of talked about what I've been writing and he had read a little bit about it. Um, and yeah, after the podcast, um, I was asking him for some advice about approaching agents, like looking for an agent. And I, I actually didn't think he was interested in, in sort of, you know. Signing me, but I just sort of said, oh, I'm doing some pitching sessions with a couple of agents. Um, what do you think? Like, do you have any advice? And, um, he actually came back to me like, I think it was like a few hours later and he's like, oh, um, I'll sign you. And I was like, oh my gosh. I'm like, really? I, I was like, are you serious?'cause I think you sort of just messaged me and I said, yeah, yeah. I'm really keen, I really, really love your writing and your book. And, um,'cause I sort of hadn't decided whether I was gonna get an agent or not. And then, you know, I was like, no, no, I really wanna do it. And he's like, yeah, absolutely. I'll sign you up. Um, but at the time we couldn't announce it because, well, and also he had said, um, you know, after we did the podcast, he's like, you, you know, I really thought that, you know, you've got a lot behind you and you've got, you know, you're building a good profile in the community and the writing industry. So he'd sort of watched me do that over that year. Um, and that was quite interesting because it's not just about the writing, it's also about. Like what you are doing around that too. Um, and so yeah, I really actually have the podcast, I think to, to thank for, for getting an agent. I recognize,
Tina Strachan:I'm sure it's your writing, Madeleine, but yes, the po that's probably, I suppose probably, but yeah, that, that's it. Connection is such a big thing. Hey, we've had these discussions before about connection and I think that's how I definitely helped me sign as well with my publisher was making connections with her. Um. But you don't like, just in case anybody has listened to episodes before, you don't need an agent in Australia and you don't need a podcast. So, you know, you hear people talk about having a platform and you know, definitely having a podcast gives you a platform. Um, but prior to that, you know, it's hard like to have. To gain a platform. Really. And I guess unless you can organically do it, I don't know. I, I know, I mean, I spent years wondering how you could ever do that, but you still don't, you don't need a platform to either. It does all come back to the writing, but did you wanna talk a little bit about how. What it's done for you though, having an agent and how it's helped you?
Madeleine Cleary:Yeah, for sure. So, um, yeah, absolutely you do not need an agent. Um, I spent a few months thinking about whether I should or not, um, because I've already got such an awesome relationship. With my publisher and, um, I didn't need that. But what I decided was that I'm looking for a long-term career in writing and I really wanted clear strategic advice. Um, and also that editorial support and zeitgeist agency actually do, they're one of the few agencies that offer, um, editorial as well. Um, just because I've never done any writing courses or. Gone to uni to do writing. I, you know, it's a very organic thing and I think anything you can to improve your writing and get some good advice about. Next steps I'd written as well, a contemporary fiction novel. Um, and, and so it was quite different to my historical fiction and so I wasn't sure what to do with that as well. Um, whether that should be my next, so that's where an agent can come in and sort of. Give you advice about your, your career, um, and what to do. And so it's funny though, because the timing last year when Sam signed me with Zeitgeist, um, we couldn't announce it for months because I, as soon as he signed me, he said, oh, I said, by the way, I've applied for the Australian Fiction Prize. Um, I've submitted my manuscript. I hadn't heard anything at that stage. And he, I, but I knew he was a judge. And, um, he didn't know I'd applied. He hadn't reviewed or seen any of the manuscripts, and they don't, they don't receive that. They only get the shortlisted ones. And so Harper Collins do the shortlisting for that. So I just wanted to let him know. I'm like, Hey, you know, and so he let them know. Immediately. And when he got the shortlist, um, sent to him, so this was after he'd signed me, my name was on the shortlist. And so he was like, oh, this is gonna, people are gonna think I've, um, you know, if we announce it, like there's gonna be conflict of interest. And he was, you know, very professional and removed himself from all of that. You know, the judging of my work and everything. So, yeah. By the time we could announce it, five months had gone by and I'm like, well, I just didn't want to felt like it. It's, it's gone. Felt like it was
Tina Strachan:over. Yeah. And that's, that's not unusual, is it? And for, for various reasons. You're told to sort of just hold Yeah. For a bit. And you know, people are sitting there with this awesome information and you know that they just wanna get out. Yes.
Madeleine Cleary:So, but yes, and Sam, like zeitgeist are amazing and Sam's been fantastic for, I don't know. That it was absolutely the right decision. Decision.
Tina Strachan (2):Mm-hmm.
Madeleine Cleary:And I, I think, you know, that's helped me decide the direction as well. And I'm really keen on historic writing and historical fiction and staying with a firm and, and sort of, you know, becoming a, um, as much as I can, a long-term career as, as much as I, you know, will continue to be, um, in that sort of space. So, um, and it's just, I guess it is also nice to have someone in your corner who you know is in your corner. Um, that's been the other benefit. Having said all that, you do not need an agent. You can also get a coach, Catherine Collette's coaches. Mm. I've actually just started a little coaching thing as well. Um, uh, yeah, I'm, I haven't advertised it. I'm just taking, like, I've got a few clients now, um, who are just doing very select stuff, but, um, you know, because I think coaching, it is helpful to have someone in your corner. So, and I think there will be a few debut rider who, um, might be looking at doing some coaching as well for next year's crew. Mm-hmm.
Tina Strachan:Yeah, I think that's really important.'cause you do feel a little bit on your own, don't you? Yes. I don't have an agent, Tash. And Tash doesn't have an agent either? No, I don't have an agent. No. No. And you, um. Do sometimes it's nice, it's nice to, you know, be able to just chat straight to your publishers, which you can do anyway when you still have an agent. But you know, there are, they deal with other things with your publisher, but, um, it's, yeah, sometimes, like you just said with your career. You know, the sort of that bigger picture stuff, not just your next deal. Mm-hmm. Like your bigger picture stuff. It's nice to have someone who knows the industry, knows what's happening and can guide on that. Um, yeah, so I see definite benefits in that as well.
Madeleine Cleary:Yeah. Yeah. And it's a good, it's a decision that everyone should think about because of course, you know, there is a cost element too. Like your agent doesn't work for free, they take 15%. Um, which is also really useful to know when you're thinking about it. But, um, I think if you are an emerging writer and looking to submit, it is worthwhile testing waters with a few agents to see their level of interest, because it's better, I think to approach agents first. And if you're getting all nos, then perhaps it gives you a bit of. You know, a suggestion, that's when you get a
Tina Strachan:coach to help you with your practical writing.
Madeleine Cleary:That's
Tina Strachan:right. Happy to coach anyone on how to story grid their work. Actually, I can story, I'll sign up to that. Tina, into, into an Excel spreadsheet. Oh, Madeleine, guys. Madeleine's coming around to the spreadsheet.
Oh, Madeleine, you can't, there's an episode in this. Please just let me do it. Uh, um, and do it for free.
Tina Strachan:Um, yes. So that's where a coach does come in as well. You know, and I just wanted to say, uh, before we wrap it up as well, that, um, ways of getting in front of agents can be just as hard as it can be, just as hard to get in front of an agent as can to a publisher, but take advantage of, um, pitch sessions and, um, you know, conferences and events that offer assessments. A great way of getting your work in front of, um, agents and publishers, and you may have to pay, but, um, some really good things can come out of that. It's getting in front of them and they're reading it, and that's, that's, that's the first step everyone.
Madeleine Cleary:Exactly. And that feedback is so valuable. And, um, yeah. As particularly like the CYA or you'll have to wait another year for CYAI think after this comes up. We'll, yeah, next week, uh, this weekend is the actual conference, so Right. Perfect. But the a SA do their quarterly pitch session sessions as well, so, um, do, do sign up to that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Oh well, grand's balls, pendulum spins, pen's, balls. Yep.
Tina Strachan:Awesome. Very titillating. Madeleine,
Tina Strachan (2):is it Grand's balls? Titillating.
Natasha Rai:I'm not getting involved in this bit,
Madeleine Cleary:Natasha, by this conversation.
Natasha Rai:Actually, no, not with granddad's balls. No, not
now. Not anymore. Oh. Anyway, it was so lovely to chat to you ladies altogether
Tina Strachan:and um, congratulations on one year of the book Deal podcast.
Natasha Rai:Yes. Congratulations. You two set up an amazing podcast that're very proud.
Madeleine Cleary:It's all Tina. Tina is, that's not. Has been at the, the helm of this ship, um, guiding us through the, the crazy waters. So thank you, Tina. All your podcast research information, voice memos, ideas, suggestions, it's amazing.
Tina Strachan:Team effort, ladies, um, and look forward to another wonderful year of podcasting and interviewing. It's so fun, isn't it Fun. So fun.
Madeleine Cleary:And if you want story grid coaching, go to Tina. Uh yep. DM me Are up. Mm-hmm. Bye bye.
Tina Strachan (3):Thank you for listening to the Book Deal podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the pod so you can receive updates as soon as our new EPS drop and to keep up to date with what the pod is doing. You can also find us on Instagram.