The Book Deal
Motivation and inspiration for emerging writers, helping them pave their own pathway to publishing success.
The Book Deal
Debut author Carla Salmon on writing fiery stories for the young adult market
Host Tina Strachan chats to debut author Carla Salmon about the journey of her young adult mystery thriller, 'We Saw What You Started'. Carla discusses her path from the initial idea to signing with publisher Pan MacMillan. She highlights crucial aspects like the structural evolution of her manuscript, the importance of fleshing out characters, and the challenges of reaching young readers in the current market. Carla also shares practical advice on marketing and building professional platforms for aspiring authors. The episode includes a segment by Tanya Scott about her debut novel, 'Stillwater'.
00:00 Introduction to the Book Deal Podcast
00:43 Meet Carla Salmon: Debut Author
03:10 The Journey to Publication
06:15 Crafting a Young Adult Mystery
08:50 The Editing Process and Agent Search
16:38 Signing with a Publisher
20:52 Writing for Teens and Tweens
24:43 Debut Spotlight: Tanya Scott's Debut Novel 'Stillwater'
25:52 Challenges in Middle Grade and Young Adult Reading
30:22 Navigating the Young Adult Market
36:21 Marketing Strategies for Authors
46:11 Balancing Writing and Marketing
48:49 Final Thoughts and Upcoming Projects
Follow The Book Deal podcast on Instagram The Book Deal podcast (@the_book_deal_podcast) • Instagram photos and videos
You can find out more about Tina and Madeleine and follow their journeys here:
Tina Strachan (@td_strachan) • Instagram photos and videos
Tina Strachan children's book author
Madeleine Cleary (@madeleineclearywrites) • Instagram photos and videos
Madeleine Cleary | Author
If you want to stay in the know, sign up to Madeleine and Tina's quarterly newsletters for the latest news first.
Madeleine: Subscribe here
Tina: Subscribe here
This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories, the authors behind your favorite books. No matter what sage of writing you are at, we've got you covered. I'm Tina Strachan. And I'm Madeleine Cleary. And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors one deal at a time.
Madeleine Cleary:The book Deal Podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
Tina Strachan:Good morning, Carla Salmon and welcome to the Book Deal podcast. Thank you so much for having me, Tina. I'm so excited. Oh, it is our pleasure. And congratulations on your debut, young adult novel. We saw what you started. Thank you. It's, um, crazy to think it's actually out in the world now. Yeah. It's such a long buildup, isn't there? Um, but I'm gonna get into that. I wanna ask you all about how long that was. Um, but I have lots of things to ask you actually. So I was just telling you about the timeframe that we try and put on our interviews, and often we just. We go over'cause there's so many things and debut authors have so much to, to give and to share, um, to our, for our listeners. Um, but you know, you're an author and you're a teacher and you have a career in marketing. I do. Uh, which we can tell from your incredible promotional circuit that you're currently on, um, and you're a mom. And, uh, you have just published in a category that's quite, that is very dear to my heart, actually. Young adult and oh, but it's also, yeah. Incredibly hard to be published in. Mm-hmm. Uh, so I have lots of questions about all those things, so let's see how we go try to fit that in. Love it. So first off, color, um, can you give us your one-liner and tell of four, we saw what you started and give us a little pitch.
Carla Salmon:So we saw what you started is a mystery thriller for 11 to 15 year olds set in a surf lifesaving club.
Tina Strachan:That is, that sounds incredible. And I live, you know, I live on the Gold Coast, so I, so for me it had like all the things that Yeah. Felt really familiar. Um, so yeah, that's really exciting. Um, and a great one liner. I think that's, um, yeah. What would draw in lots of the kids, um, one liners are so
Carla Salmon:hard. I feel like I always need to put so much more into it, because then I know I go on the spiel for the, you know, what it's actually about with the characters. But yeah, you do need to try and think of something that. Sums it up and, and is at the heart of the story, but is also going to be a little bit different and a little bit, um, you know, something that's gonna grab attention.
Tina Strachan:Mm-hmm. Yes. Well, I think you've done a very good job and you've done that, but it is, it's, it's, it is a skill to create a good one-liner. Um, so. You know, we love debuts here on the pod of which you are, and we love a good old debut success story and publication journey. So can you take us on that journey? Can you start from like when you actually started writing I sure can to, yeah. To when you actually signed that elusive book deal.
Carla Salmon:Yes. So it's about two and a half years ago now from, I guess, conception to the actual. Book being on the shelves. So it has been, um, a really amazing period of huge growth and learning, and it's been very exciting. A lot of hard work, but it's the type of work that, um, gives me adrenaline and really fills my cup. So it is, it has gone very quickly. But two and a half years ago, my son was 11 at the time, and he started wanting books that felt older. He wanted Eder reads with, you know, more particularly the humor. He felt he wanted something a little bit more mature and he also wanted stories that really reflected, I guess, his friendship groups and the more complex relationships. Within his own world and his own life. Um, and some of those challenges, and I was quite open for him to read up because obviously they're the ingredients that usually are part of a really wonderful young adult fiction read that is usually targeted at slightly older readers. But even those books that I was willing to, I guess, let him dabble in, even though I was a little bit nervous about some of the themes and the language in those texts, he just didn't connect with them because I guess his own experiences just didn't ring true for him at that younger age, that late tween, early teenage years. So he started, um, I guess pushing back against reading, which completely broke my heart because we worked so hard, um, to try and get our kids. To be in good reading habits, you know, from picture books through beautiful junior fiction and then middle grade. And then I do notice even at school, kids are starting to, I guess, get a little bit lost in knowing what to choose next. And so it was a trend I was noticing at school as well as a teacher. And I, you know, never thought in a million years that I would actually try and write something for that group of kids until I was, I guess, reflecting on where I was with my career as a teacher. I was acting head of year at the time and really, really busy. But when you're in a management role at school, I guess your classroom time is reduced a little, which is your creative time is being in the classroom. So I was looking for something else that was just for me, just pure joy and. That creative, um, time to yeah, look at something a little bit different. And my cousin suggested, you know, that I do something that's a side hustle that I guess compliments teaching, but is going to, I guess, meet that need that I had personally. And so yeah, over a couple of margaritas one afternoon, um, on a rainy day in Harpy Bay during the holidays. That's one of the best ideas happen. The best. It's the best. She's actually printed a photo for me of the, of that day and, and sent it through as my, as a gift when I was published, so it was so beautiful. Anyway, um, but yeah, so then she's just suggested, you know, what about writing? And again, the actual novel didn't really come into play until I was driving home from that holiday a few days later. And I thought, well, you know, if I was going to write a book, what would it be? Where would it be? And you know, thinking of my son and also my daughter at the time who was 13 and really loving mysteries. Um, if I was to write that kind of book, where would I set it? And for some reason, the Red Sand Surf Lifesaving Club just kind of popped into my head and I thought, well, I can't really think of too many books or any books actually in young adult fiction that is positioned as a mystery in a surf lifesaving club. Maybe that's something that's different and it obviously is open for boys and girls. It's a sport that offers. You know, a wide range of participants, all ages, all stages. Maybe I can work with this. And then from there, I, I guess, started trying to write a story and I had no idea what I was doing. And I remember, you know, taking my, I think it was about 20 or 30,000 words, which I thought was a book at that point, um, into school and giving it to one of my beautiful, trusted teaching colleagues. And said, you know, would you mind to have a read of this draft? You know, I don't know really what I'm doing, but do you think it would be okay? And she's like, oh, you mean your manuscript? I'm like, what's the manuscript? I don't know. Isn't that what you do later? But anyway, so, or even the language of the industry, I had no idea about, but she read it for me and she was very kind because I certainly can't reread that draft now because it's dreadful. It's truly dreadful. Um, and the story has changed so much. Being the wonderful kind teacher she is with constructive feedback, she said, yeah, look, I think there's something there. I love the idea. You should actually do some courses and, and find out more about it. And that was when I first started finding this amazing community, um, that we have in Brisbane, but also all throughout Australia. These, you know, this writing community where authors are. Available. Um, and you can talk to them and you can find out and go to their launches and attend workshop visits, um, and people offer to, to read your work once you have formed really wonderful relationships. So yeah, from there then I just got completely addicted, um, to learning as much as I could. Going and, and chatting to people. And I guess it was probably about 12 months before I had an actual manuscript that was suitable for a young adult pitch. Um, and then it was another author who actually offered to read it for me and she said. I love it, but that inciting incident that's, oh, sorry. The inciting incident is, is too slow. I think you should bring the really big, um, event at the end that's in the climax to the very beginning of the book. And I thought that's a wonderful idea. But I only had three days before the closing date for, for the agent I really wanted to submit to Annabel Barker, um, actually closed. So I basically said goodbye to my family, bunker down. Rewrote the whole book, kind of, I guess, with unpicking and retreading the threads and managed to get it into Annabel and. Sure, sure enough, um, a month later I heard back from her saying that she would like to request the full manuscript and then of course it went from there. So, oh my gosh, color.
Tina Strachan:There's so many incredible things about that, but I'm mortified about the three days of pulling it apart. I have to say holy smoke. It was intense. That's hard. Yeah. And it's not even just moving the inside.'cause a lot of people start the book in the wrong spot. Exactly. Um, like a couple of chapters too early and so it's. It's bringing forward, you know, you can get rid of a couple of chapters at the beginning. Um, I've actually even just done that recently myself, but they're still important. You have to write them. Yeah. So don't be discouraged if that's what you've done, because that's almost you getting it out on the page. Right. And, um. And, and actually working out your characters and your setting. So it's important, but you just gotta, you gotta kill those darlings and just start off in that action. But I've never had to bring something right from the end to the very beginning. And that is, and of course when you do that, there's those threads, like you said, unpacking and picking and, and just the thought of, um, yeah. Trying to follow those threads through is, um.
Carla Salmon:Yeah, heart very hard. It's crazy. So I hope I don't have to do it again, but it was so worth it. I mean, obviously I would do it 10,000 times over to have that opportunity, you know, to, for the agent to read it and, and be interested in it. And of course then there was so much work that was then done with the publishers after that. Um, but I think it's that whole idea of if you get an opportunity, you've just gotta grab it. Um, and I guess that's. Always been my mindset when I first started, you've got nothing to lose. Mm-hmm. It's, you know, it's, it's your time and everything's an opportunity to learn more. Just go for it.
Tina Strachan:Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, um, did, did they, so there's a reason for this question. Did you find after you submitted and Anabel got back to you, did you find some thread that hadn't actually been like, picked up?
Carla Salmon:Oh, definitely. And look, yeah, the whole book then, you know, as we, as I learned how to write a novel still throughout that process, um, was, was continuous right up until publication. So Annabel then came back to me with her suggestions, um, and we workshopped a little bit further before we went actually out to market. And then once. It was then signed with the publisher and we started that, um, that structural editing process. There were significant threads that changed again throughout those edits. Um, the story was at the heart and soul of the story. It was always consistent. Mm-hmm. Um, because I wanted that. Edgy teen voice. Mm-hmm. Um, something that was, I guess, quintessentially Australian and had those, those dual points of view. So those characters were always quite solid. But definitely we enhanced the characterization of. Both, um, milli and Otto throughout that editing process. But in terms of the extra characters and the mystery itself, the person who was first responsible for, you know, for the crimes in the initial edits is no longer even in the book. Mm-hmm. So we, um, we rewrote, I guess, the start and the finish multiple times throughout the process.
Tina Strachan:Yeah. And I love that and it's really important. It's really important and I wanted to just chat about. Because I think a lot of people put all this emphasis on being absolutely 100% perfect with their manuscript. And of course you have to make it as polished as you could be. You would have thought at the end of those three days that everything was smooth. You, because you're in such a, you such tunnel vision and you've just looked at it so much, you're not picking up things anymore. You a hundred percent need new eyes. Um, and. Things do still get picked, picked up and worked on with the agent and the publisher. And maybe it's, you know, timeline issues or, uh, making sure the, that the threads, uh, all match up again because it's been moved. Or there's characters, like you said, that completely come out. I don't even know how, how you start with that or come, come in. Like I've heard people write characters in and, um, I think that's important to, you know, kind of for people who. Are just still tinkering. Stop tinkering.
Carla Salmon:Absolutely.
Tina Strachan:Because like you said, it's the heart and the soul, isn't it? That they're looking for, they have read your work, they know that you can write, um, but it's the heart and the soul of the story that they're looking for and the message and. Everything else creates that package. Um, there's multiple, I guess, points that they're looking for and values that they're looking for. Uh, they a hundred percent understand that you can fix a character, you can fix a plot, you can flick, fix a timeline, but everything else needs to be there. Um, yes, I agree. Important.
Carla Salmon:I totally agree. And I think also, I guess what I focus on as well is the characters being, um, as fleshed out as possible and as real as possible. Because I feel like it's a bit like, you know that saying, you know, you don't remember what people, what someone did, but you remember the way they, that they made you feel. Yes. It's a bit like that with books, I think, because we don't necessarily remember exactly the plot beats or the moments in a story, but we fall in love with the characters so. Whilst of course, you know, you, you might adapt them and, and develop and deepen their character arcs their characteristics and who they are. If you can flesh that out as much as possible, then I totally agree. Then it's kind of like playing with Barbie dolls, you know, like you're back, you're back as a kid and you're just changing the story of as to what these characters are doing. Mm-hmm. Um. I think that is also what, what, what publishers and agents are looking for is, you know, have we got really, have we got characters here that will really connect with people? And you know, that's the feedback that I'm receiving through my, through my drafting process. And now when the book's out on shelves is how much people can. To those characters, and if they don't, then that's a real problem.
Tina Strachan:Mm-hmm. I a hundred percent agree with you, and I remember thinking this just recently. I finished a book, it was a great book. I really enjoyed it. I literally put it down and the next day I was thinking about it, which is a sign of a good book, right? Yeah. Could it tell you what a single name of any of the characters were? Just like, you just gloss over that. But I remember how it made me feel and I remember how it made me think about it, and that's important. But yeah, I couldn't. Couldn't tell you now half the characters that I've read because, and we spend so much time agonizing over names and things, don't we? No one cares. Absolutely.
Carla Salmon:No cares. No, that's exactly right. I mean, I'm sure they do all that's more details.
Tina Strachan:That's right. Uh, that's amazing. So, such an incredible story. Um, and signing with Annabelle Barker, who's amazing. Oh, she's, that's, yeah. She's like a, a dream agent. Mm. And can you tell us what happened after that?
Carla Salmon:I can. Yeah. So, um, so we, I signed with Annabel and then yeah, we workshopped the manuscript for a little bit. Um, and then, you know, you, you get that message from her that says, okay, we're gonna send it out. And, you know, it's the, I think that was probably the most exciting thing that has happened so far, because it's that initial, oh my goodness. This is actually going to be read by these incredible people in the publishing world. Um, and it, it's happening. And so I was incredibly nervous and that that actual process then takes a few months. Um, and so she sent it out to a number of publishers. I think three of them, um, came back and said, look, it's just not quite right for us. But three did come back and said, yes, please. We would, we would like to talk further. Um, and they were incredible. Names and just dream publishers. And they were all spectacular. And I then had meetings, zoom calls with each of the publishers, um, and they talked to me about what they thought the book could be and what I could be for them as well and where I would fit. Um, and, you know, that was surreal. That was completely ridiculous. I remember hanging up from that call, just going, you know, each one going, sorry, is this actually, is this actually real? Um, it's the dream. It was amazing. And you know, I guess that is the benefit of, of having someone, um, who as an agent, able to negotiate and, and put those opportunities in place. Um. Yeah, and you know, each, it wouldn't have mattered which one, um, I went with in the end, like it, in terms of they all had wonderful opportunities. I ended up signing with Pam McMillan because the publisher I met with there just really, I guess, connected with me personally, and I just felt like. They were gonna look after me as an author as well as with all of my books, um, or hopefully more of my books. Um, and the idea initially for the story was always that I wanted to have it, um, specific for I guess that young, those young teens, early tweens, sorry, late tweens age group, and. In that group though, I want it to be as edgy as possible and to really push it within those boundaries so that yes, parents can give it to teenagers to read and allow them to read it. Completely independently and feel comfortable that the themes and the language is age appropriate. And also for teacher librarians, I think we have to remember that with teacher librarians working in schools and we're, you know, we're accountable to parents. Um, it is tricky sometimes recommending books that are. You know, obvi for older, older children to read. Um, so I really wanted to offer that because I, I, that was what I was wanting for my own son at the time and, and the students at my school. Um, but I also know that these kids wanted something that felt older. And so that meant that I needed help to try and make this probably quite, the story was a little bit gentler at the beginning, um, and. Pam McMillan just said, I think we can take this further. We can make it grittier. We can make it punchier and edgier and let's, you know, push it right to the very edge that we can within this age group that you want to write for. And I just thought, yes. That's, that's what I want. That's exactly what I want. Um, and delightfully that has been the process all the way along. It is, it's been one of true collaboration. Um, all of my ideas, uh, taken really seriously, right from, you know, the writing stage through to the cover design, through to, um, you know, the notes that go in the back of the book to the kids that we got for, you know, endorsements. So at every point of the way. Um, I felt like it's just been such an amazing teamwork, um, situation, which I'm, I'm really grateful for.
Tina Strachan:Mm-hmm. Um, can I ask practically when, and for authors that are listening who want to write some ya or, um. Some older middle grade and there's that sort of crossover isn't there in the middle. Mm. And making it grittier and punchier. What does that look like? Like how can you make something grittier and punchier?
Carla Salmon:Mm. I think it comes down to the language that you are using when you are speaking in the character voice. Um, so I chose to write in first person present tense, um, because I also love books. That are written in that, um, in that style. So I guess a Holly Jackson voice minus some of the, the older, more mature language and, um, some of the themes and, and actions that happen in those types of texts. So I guess I was trying to. Think about how I can use language that is shorter sentences, sharper sentences for boys particularly. I think that's, and I really was really trying to listen to the teens in my life, um, and to That's right,
Tina Strachan:bro. A
Carla Salmon:fair second sentence. That's exactly right. Well, I got in in trouble for that.
Tina Strachan:Yeah. Well, yeah, that's another thing to touch on, not being too slanging and not, and, and words that can date.
Carla Salmon:That's right. And actually the teens don't want that. So it was my own son who said, oh my gosh, that is so cringe. You like, that's what you sound like. I know I did. I'm like, I'm just mirroring exactly what you talk, how you say it. Um, and, but I did need to be conscious of that. So whilst they wanted to be a reflection of how they speak, they. It actually can't be a true reflection. So it's this really weird kind of fine line that you play in. Um, and I think that's the word that I wanna focus on. If we are writing for teens and tweens, you have to play, you have to play with the words, and you have to think, um, how can I make this sound? Fun and a little bit edgier and cooler with the way that I'm mixing it up. So I play with hyphens, like a hyphenate, bunches of words together for the girls.'cause you know, if we've, we've got young teen girls, they use four or five adjectives in a row. Um, or they string their, their words together. They're not necessarily speaking in a really cohesive, fluent pattern, so you can't write a whole sentence like that. But throwing in a few of those every now and again, I really, I like to play with that. Um, for the, and like I said, for the boys, shorter, sharper, edgier, keeping it really practical. And also removing some of the technical language. So, you know, with when my son's editing my book now, um, you know, one of his, his quotes from the book two that he's reading at the moment was, okay, enough with the environmental facts, it's sounding too educational.
Tina Strachan:Mm-hmm. Yes. And so
Carla Salmon:they see through it and they don't, because they don't give each other. You know, I guess factual advice about a setting. Do they, they just aren't yet? No.
Tina Strachan:Do boys even talk to each other?
Carla Salmon:Sometimes I wonder. I don't know. They just, and that's the thing, they're so quiet sometimes. Sometimes it can be. Um, and so trying to thread that in instead to descriptive sentences through the character's eyes. But again, even limiting that, so focusing as well on pace and keeping that pace really nice and, um, tight, I think is, is a real key point for writing for, um, young teens and tweens because they, they will simply put it down. They, they used to, like, they're in a world where they, if they don't like what they're watching, they swipe to the next thing, or they flick the channel. They don't even have to watch for, you know, the next Dawson's Creek episode to drop in a week. Do they like, they just. Ads gonna switch it on to another series, there's no ads. Um, and so I think as writers, we need to be conscious of that and aim to do everything we can to give them the opportunity to keep turning the page.
Tanya Scott:Hi listeners. I'm Tanya Scott and my debut novel Stillwater is out on the 29th of July with Alan and Unwin Stillwater's a crime thriller. It's about Luke, a young man who's recently returned to his home city of Melbourne after several years running away from his troubled early life and his chaotic father. He's keeping a low profile, but he's broke. His car's dying and his university exams are hanging over his head. Luke's quiet. Life is thrown into turmoil when Gus Alberici, the criminal he worked for as a teenager, tracks him down and wants him back on the job. And Gus is not the kind of bloke who takes no for an answer. Luke is roped into a hunt for his estranged father who's vanished, along with a chunk of Gus's cash. In the meantime, Luke's navigating a new relationship with a flamboyant actor, and he's pulled into her family dysfunction while grappling with people and events from a past he'd much rather leave behind him and holding on tight to secrets that just might get him killed. Stillwater's a story about a reluctant criminal. It's about not allowing your past to define you and about learning to be the Stillwater when the sea around you is churning. I hope you enjoy it.
Tina Strachan:it's a real epidemic at the moment, isn't it? Um, reading amongst kids, but mostly boys is a real issue and they drop out of that, like even middle grade with just, they're just dropping out of, and I guess for listeners who aren't aware, middle grade, so the difference between. Middle grade, and then there's junior fiction as well, which is younger, but middle grade is, um, it can be eight or nine plus usually, um, up to about 12 characters, generally speaking. And there's always, you know, uh, exceptions to the rule, but generally speaking, uh, protagonists can't really, or shouldn't really be teenagers. So then 13 and up kind of becomes, um. Young adult, yes, but thirteens still quite young. Um, but, so then young adult is teenage protagonists, but that can be so wide and so varied as well, you know, 13 through to, you know, 19 even guess 19, 20. Yeah. Yeah. And the kids do like to read up and from all ages, from young ages, like generally their cha, the characters are a couple of years older. So there's that real in between period where, you know, you have 11 and 12 year olds wanting to read up and then you just, their only options are these, ya sometimes just maybe a little bit inappropriate or, or not. They're not ready for it. Like you were saying, it's, it's kind of a real gap. Yeah. Um, I've heard recently that the, the girls are reading up, but not just like way up, like out of ya. They're reading like Col, Colleen Hoover and things like that. They're just really, um, whether or not they're ready for it, I don't, I don't know. Or is it just they're so used, what they're seeing these days and hearing and watching is so beyond. What we are used to them, so, so they're so used to it and it's not as. Kind of shocking or for them and yeah, reading up and I, and I can only imagine what's I, I don't meet Colleen Hoover, but I can only imagine there's a lot of romance in
Carla Salmon:those ones, right? I think so, yeah. And I think, I think sometimes in middle grade, the moral of the story. Um, can be really clear. Mm-hmm. And if you've got a more mature kid, they, they don't, they, they really don't wanna be told what to do or, and they don't want to be feeling like a parent or a teacher is speaking to them through the character voices. Um, and, you know, there's wonderful, wonderful middle grade. I'm such a huge advocate for middle grade, um, who, which doesn't do that. And they do it really well. Of course. I mean, your own books Tina are, are fantastic. Um, but it is a fine line, right? Because. You want it to be somewhat wholesome and to have a lesson that is. Um, at the end of it that kids can take away, because that's the whole point of books, right? We wanna build empathy and offer something that makes'em a slightly better human in some sort of way, especially in those younger years. And for some of those kids who are reading middle grade, uh, younger as well, and they're wanting those beautiful, gentler, um, and, you know, fun reads. So it's tricky when you get a kid who's. Old enough to read or a very good reader to read up, but not, you know, they see through sometimes the morals and those types of things, but they're definitely not ready for that high level complex, um, mature themes in the older YA and, and in just normal fiction as well, of course.
Tina Strachan:Yeah, it's really tricky and I have heard an agent say before, you know, a, a kid can smell a parent or an adult from a mile away. So if you make any of your words set, like they don't want a mom coming through to them while they, while they're reading. Um, so that's really important too, just. Yeah, absolutely. In young adult, definitely. Um, making sure that that doesn't shine through, but like you said, yeah, middle grade there, I think, I mean, I'm not an expert on the genre, but I, yeah, I think most of the time it's expected that there's a little bit of a learning, a little bit of a message at the end, but absolutely. Still you can't make it. Feel like they're being How explicit? Yeah. Educated. Uh, definitely. Yeah. You have to hide it.
Carla Salmon:Well, they're wanting to read for, we we're wanting them to read for fun and for pleasure, right? Mm-hmm. So I guess in that time, they're not in a, an educational mindset that they're willing to take in, um, I guess the life lessons necessarily. Um, certainly explicitly. So yeah. We, we need to thread it through with invisible thread. Yes. Yes,
Tina Strachan:that's right. So, uh, like I said, ya is, um, very close to my heart. I love reading it and I love writing it as well. Um, but it is, uh, hard to, to get across the line. Multiple publishers and agents just say, it's just really tricky. Um, did you get any, sorry, could you. Just tell us a little bit about your journey with that and any thoughts on the market and have you had any, you know, conversations with, you know, publishers and agents, um, that can offer some advice to people who do love to write ya and r writing ya and trying to get their ya across the line. And, you know, I've, I know people who've been told, just age it down. Just make all the characters, age them down. Get rid of any romance.'cause also romance is not, is something that's. Not usually in middle grade. Um, and just age it down or age it up. Just make them adults and. So there's again, this gap. Um, any advice or thoughts on that?
Carla Salmon:Yeah. Yes, and I was, um, encouraged by the one publisher to potentially age it down as well. So I did receive that and I took it seriously because I understand. Um, it's partly, I think, to do with. The reach to schools, so we know, which is an absolute tragedy, that schools, um, and all librarians in schools are becoming fewer and fewer. So, you know, not, there's so many high schools now that don't actually have teacher librarians, um, which, you know, breaks my heart completely. But it's a reality and hopefully we can change that as a society. And we've got wonderful organizations fighting really hard to make sure that there are librarians still in every single school because you know, we know the stats on reading and we know how in absolutely crucial it is for every part of literacy, but also as a space for a community and just to offer. So many wonderful things. So we know all about that. But as well, the majority of teacher librarians are in primary schools. So if we are aiming to, um, from a marketing perspective, try and reach, um, our books into schools and to have that, um, I guess that market be accessible as widely as possible. I understand that publishers are saying, well, yeah, we've still got that, that in, um, at that primary school age. And also parents are still buying books a lot for children in that younger age category because the kids are still reading, I guess, at that, at that. At that age group, once kids tend to get their first phone, they're catching the bus home, they're involved in a whole bunch of co-curricular, um, you know, parents themselves are really, really busy with teenagers. I, myself, as a parent, definitely don't, um, I guess, hassle my kids as much to try and designate that reading time. And that's as an author and an English teacher. So, so it's, it's really challenging, I think. And so I, I understand why numbers tend to drop off a little bit in that, you know, older, older tween, young teen age group. Because books are competing with so many things. Uh, in saying that though, that's why I think it's absolutely crucial that any books that we do put in the hands of those young teens, it has to ring true for them and it has to hit home and it has to grab them so that they, we start getting that really positive experience again then, and then of course the demand increases. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, I think if you are aiming to write. If you've got a beautiful ya that you're really passionate about, thinking about, well what is, what is the market in beyond just your own? I guess publishing world, how can you make connections beyond who you know within the writing community? So for example, I've looked to influencers, teen influencers, and who can I reach and who can I team up with, um, who are creative types. And who have got, you know, fabulous followings as well who are working with parents. Um, and that's been a really big positive because all of a sudden you've got people who wouldn't normally follow authors, for example, on different various social media platforms. They're becoming aware and most kids don't know that you can go and see an author present at a launch or that they are, that, that, you know, our bookstores and our libraries are doing all of these fantastic events. They actually don't know about it. Especially if they don't have a librarian in their school promoting these things. Um, so yeah, I think thinking creatively about how you can come up with a plan to reach people. Um, I did talk about that when, um, you know, during the process, um, when, when the auction was happening and who I was actually going to, to go with about how to reach people beyond. I guess what the norm is, um, to try and maximize all the connections that we had between us. So I think, yeah, if we can think ourselves, who else is out there that can draw kids back into making reading cool and fun, let's connect and let's work with these people and the influencers who are in these kids' world.
Tina Strachan:Yeah, because they play such a big role for them, don't they? That's where they're getting these words from and, um, all the things that they're asking to do and have and buy is all. Coming from that whole different type of marketing that we were ever brought up with. Um, though I do think for girls it's a bit easier because it's a bit more accepted and they, you know, they love a good sort of book talk sort of situation and book influencers, especially if you write romantic or Yeah. Um, fantasy for young adults, that seems to still be going pretty strong. Absolutely. But yeah, it is about marketing and trying to find those different ways of. Getting your book into people's hands, like you said. Now, can you please share some advice for. Those of us who don't, who aren't, don't have marketing backgrounds, uh, because it's always something that's discussed a lot between the debut crew. Uh, you know, how, what do I do to, to help get my book out there? Because a lot of, um, debut or a lot of aspiring authors don't realize that, um. Your publishers do a lot to do a lot for you as an author and, you know, get your book on the shelves, which is the most important thing. But when it comes to publicity and promotion and marketing, it's um, different for everybody. And probably the one thing that is, um. You know, the same for everybody is that you do have to put in an effort yourself, and there are things that you can do. Um, can you help us with that color because you've been everywhere and doing lots of things. And, um, yeah, a, a really good example of how to yeah. Use your connections and your network and, um, and get your book out there. So what practical tips and advice do you have for us?
Carla Salmon:Yes, I think, um, my background is public relations and marketing. So before I was a teacher, that was my life for 10 years. And so for me, it kind of just made sense immediately that if I'm going to write a book and I'm gonna dedicate all of these hours. Into creating a product.'cause that's essentially what it is then. Well, of course it's a business, right? And you have to be really conscious of that and own it as a business from the beginning. Um, imposter syndrome is rife and I don't think any of us ever escape that. And I don't know if we ever, it doesn't matter how successful you are. I speak to other authors all the time and they still feel like imposters because it is a personal reflection of. Your own work. It's such a, it is such a personal thing, but it's also a product. Um, and you as an author are a product potentially, especially if you're writing for children because you are offering your services to go and visit schools and, um, potentially be as, be a speaker and. Offer those visits. So I was very conscious right from the beginning about setting up my platforms before I even thought about going to an agent, um, to make sure that I had those bases established, that I would come across as the professional business owner that. I want it to be. Um, and I think we, yeah, we need to be really confident of that as creatives, and you can do it yourself. So I have actually, um, built my own website on Squarespace. Now, I'm not a tech person at all. Um, but there's, you will know someone in your life who can help you through developing the basics of a website, thinking about every single. Image on that website and the font and all of those elements, they all have to contribute to the feeling that you want your readers to feel when you are reading the book. Um, so for me, my book, I hope at the end of it when people have read it, is that it's been a, an escapist read. It's, it's a fun place. It's set in this Instagram worthy, um, location. It's. Coastal and beachy, and those are the vibes. And so those are the vibes that I try to put into my Instagram and into LinkedIn and also onto my website. And if you're going to be, I guess, writing in a positive way, thinking about your language when you're communicating on those platforms as well. Um, and so I think it's, yeah, thinking really holistically about. Who you want to be as an author, and of course it can and change, but at the beginning when you. Proposing that you're gonna team up with a publisher and an agent who, who is also, um, a business, then what can you contribute in the way that makes life as easy as possible for them? So yeah, building those bridges, um, right from the beginning also. Following and connecting with people through social media. It is absolutely crucial that it's a mutually beneficial relationship. So it can't be fake. It has to be authentic, and it should be because otherwise it'd be really unpleasant. Mm. Um, but you know, if you are connecting and supporting people, that's actually what makes it really fun as well. And some of my greatest connections are a result of a year's worth of me just being genuinely. Interested and excited and celebrating other people's successes. Um, and again, like that's, that's all so much fun that that's the easy part of the job. But it, it's also, I've found now kind of accidentally, I guess by this point is that, that that comes back around, um. If you can be active in looking at people you're following, manage your Instagram and, and your social media really, really carefully. Um, but yeah, being aware that everything that you post is part of your business brand. So what do you want kids to know you as? What do you want teachers to know you as? Um, what do you want parents and booksellers. So it's beyond just, I guess, the book as a product. Um, I'm not sure if that's actually what you're meant to say as a creative because it's, it's meant to be all about the book right from the beginning. Right. And it is, but, but if you want it to, to be, that's really good advice. Yeah.
Tina Strachan:Yeah, it's really good advice and I love how you say to treat it like a business and it's, I think it's so true that you don't, you know, we created this product, which is our book, and anybody who, and, and I've, we always say multiple times on the pod that you know when it is, when you do start a business, it's many years until you actually make some money back out of it as well. Absolutely. Yeah. So, you know, so there's lots of things that's, you know. Um, comparing, sort of creating a product, say that sits on a shelf in a, in Woolies, so a food product, um, you wouldn't do that. You wouldn't create this product. Then just not send it out anywhere or get advice on it or get feedback on it. And when you're approaching a publisher or an agent, they're, you're actually looking to them as like your investors, I guess, totally. In your product that you're putting on the shelf. And so when you said about presenting, like someone who. Running a business, a, a, a reputable business, and you're taking it very seriously, then you need to present like that with your website and your social media and all those things. It re like, it really is, look at it like you're starting a business and you're a business owner. I love, I love that. Yeah,
Carla Salmon:I mean, we certainly know some authors who have just had so much success and haven't worried about the social media and, and I guess that el those other elements. Um, and that can certainly happen. So it's not a one size fits all, that's for sure. And it, it, I think it also, you have to be interested in it. Um, and so I really, I really enjoy. The connections that I have online. Um, and I love putting together the website and those elements, so that's fun. Um, if you really, really don't enjoy that, then you don't have to focus as much energy on it. But I still think it's good to have a nice polished platform as a starting base. Mm-hmm. And then see where I guess your time is best spent.
Tina Strachan:Yeah. I think it just shows that you are serious about it, doesn't it, by having all these other touch points that you can refer back to. But yeah. Again, it all comes back to having a solid book and a solid story, um, in the first place, which, you know, overrides any of those sorts of things and authors would prefer that than you having a sparkly website, but Oh, for sure. Yeah, and it's certainly helpful. Sorry. Yeah, it's certainly helpful when, um, I. It's, you know, especially for categories like ya, where it's very hard to, you know, to, to be published and to be picked up. And sometimes, you know, when there's a, um, you know, publishers are getting so many manuscripts submitted to them every week, every little bit can't hurt.
Carla Salmon:That, that was my thought as well. Like if I, and I guess that's probably my philosophy with all of this throughout the journey, which sometimes becomes, um, I guess, detrimental to my sleep and, and all of those elements. But, um, doing everything I possibly can to open as many doors as possible, um, has always been the way I've played it. So, you know, and, and because I also enjoy it, so, you know, going to events. Talking to people, pushing yourself outside your comfort zone when you walk into a room full of complete strangers as, as a like, feeling massive imposter syndrome. Mm-hmm. Because you didn't know the difference between a draft and a manuscript, um, when you first initially make those contacts. But if you can do that. Um, it certainly does come back around in a really positive way, but you're absolutely right. It's got to come back, back to the product that you make, that you should be really proud of. And again, you know, we tell our own kids and students at school the time, be really proud of your work and, and celebrate it. Um, but you know, as adults we're so conscious of it, of course, thinking, oh my gosh, what if it's rubbish? And what if. What if it's not good enough? Um, that sometimes we're a little bit shy to actually put it out there and say, Hey, you know, this is a collaborative opportunity. You know, should we pair up? And what, what can we do to work together? Um, and I think we need to, to get better at trying to put ourselves out there. I've, I'm the worst. I'm still, you know, I still shutter every time someone says, oh, I've just read your book. And I go, oh gosh. That's right. That's the whole reading bit. That's, it's all, it's all well and good to create this. Fun. You know, this fun opportunity, but it's actually out in the world. Yeah, it's okay. Yep. You've gotta read it. Yeah. Um. We, we do have to just grab it and hold onto it and, and be proud of it and try and celebrate it as best as we possibly can. Yeah,
Tina Strachan:I agree. That's good. Good points. But you know, it is time consuming though as well, and especially when you're a parent with kids. Like some, sometimes things just have to give and sometimes it is that whole social media and um, you know, creating that sort of business side of it. So. Um, this is for anyone who's listening. This is, you know, your permission to, to just let it drop sometimes, because you do. It is a con. It's just another thing that you do think about. And, and I have the amount of videos or photos that I have on my phone where I've gone, oh, that would look, that would look good for a post. Or, um, you know, I've made videos that I really wanna post, but, you know, it takes time to edit and put in. And um, post, and I just sometimes, you know, as a parent, your time is so, and a working, you know, writer also have another job also, you know, have kids that are, have a thousand sporting commitments. Exactly. Um, youre, your day is really blocked out every second of the day. Sometimes you have to say to yourself, well, what's best use of my time right now? Is it editing this video? Is it actually working on my next manuscript? You know, is this video taking out time from. Actually doing, progressing my career as a writer and Exactly. So, yeah, sometimes you just have to let these things go because, you know, an Instagram post is fleeting. Um, but the most important thing is getting your words down in the
Carla Salmon:end. Oh, I, I agree. And I think also being aware of, once you've got your platforms established, it's all well and good. You've gotta keep that machine being fed to a certain extent, but. It's the same people. So how can you then look to connect with people beyond your current group and can you use your time strategically to develop those new connections? Um, so for example, Instagram's great, um, but LinkedIn is actually the place where so many wonderful teacher librarians are present. Mm-hmm. Um, and I found some fabulous connections there and I don't post a lot on LinkedIn. But I certainly, when I do, um, I've developed some, some wonderful connections there, and that's something that I would never have worried about. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, I totally agree with you. I think it's, it's really easy to get it to fall into that trap of thinking, oh, I've gotta, you know, gotta put it on. I've gotta put it up, you know, I haven't posted today. Mm-hmm. What are you doing again from that strategic business perspective, and can you schedule time? That you are doing that and trying not to just get that dopamine hit to see, you know, how many people have actually liked a really cute, funny video that you put up.
Tina Strachan:You do. It is, it's hard. And it is a dopamine hit, isn't it? Oh, well, Carla, that is such great advice, and I'm sure everybody who's listening will take away lots of great, you know, tips from this. But what is your number one overall top tip for debut writers or for aspiring authors?
Carla Salmon:My number one tip definitely is to try and have as many face-to-face meetings as you can with people in the industry. So talk to people, you know, go to their launches, um, go to these wonderful events that are offered all the time, and. And even if you find it exhausting from that emotional perspective, which it can be, that's the part that fills your cup. Um, because you know, it's those, those real human interactions and connections that is at the heart of storytelling. So, yeah, don't be shy. Everyone is so inviting and so generous, um, and you just never know who you're gonna meet when you go to these events.
Tina Strachan:Hmm. It's very true. Very true. Um, thank you Carla, for that incredible insight into your life and into writing, and especially the really important discussion of, you know, getting kids to read and what we can do to make books that they actually want to read. It's really important. So what's next for you? What are you working on?
Carla Salmon:Book two. Book two, madly editing. I will meet my deadline by the end of the month. Surely, surely I'll. Okay. Um, yeah, so book two, um, draft is due in a couple of weeks. Um, hence my children have their post-it notes out and are quite brutal in nice, um, their, their constructive critique. Mm-hmm. Um, it's fantastic actually. So, yeah, so just trying to get it to the best potential. You know, polished version. It can be, and then we'll see where it goes. Mm-hmm. See if the publisher actually likes it or not. I'm sure they will. It'll be incredible. Thank you, Carla. Thanks so much for your time today. Thanks so much. So, so much fun to chat to you.
Tina Strachan:Thank you for listening to the Book Deal podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the pod so you can receive updates as soon as our new apps drop and to keep up to date with what the pod is doing. You can also find us on Instagram.