The Book Deal
Motivation and inspiration for emerging writers, helping them pave their own pathway to publishing success.
The Book Deal
Bookselling behind the scenes: author tips and advice with bookseller and writer Charlotte Guest
Hosts Tina Strachan and Madeliene Cleary interview Charlotte Guest, a writer and bookseller based in Geelong, Victoria. The conversation covers Charlotte's journey from an outdoor-loving child to managing an indie bookstore and obtaining a PhD in Creative Writing. Charlotte offers an inside look into the world of book selling, including the processes of ordering, the importance of face-to-face interaction with authors, and the small details that contribute to a bookshop’s success. The discussion also touches on the significance of events and the challenges of small bookstores in hosting them. Additionally, Charlotte discusses her experience being shortlisted for the Bookseller of the Year Award and shares her thoughts on the future of the book industry. The episode includes a segment with author Kasey Whitelaw sharing her debut picture book, 'Flute: A Dolphin's Wild Journey Home.'
00:00 Welcome to the Book Deal Podcast
00:43 Introducing Charlotte Guest
01:37 Casual Catch-Up with Tina and Madeline
03:01 Charlotte's Journey in Writing and Bookselling
25:25 The Power of Indie Bookshops
31:36 Making Book Orders Easy for Bookstores
32:14 Timing Your Bookstore Engagement
33:26 The Etiquette of Signing Books in Stores
34:53 Promoting Your Book in Bookstores
36:40 Kasey Whitelaw introduces debut book 'Flute: A Dolphin's Wild Journey Home'
38:30 Author Events in Bookstores
42:07 The Role of Bookstores in the Community
44:28 Favorite Moments as a Bookseller
50:25 The Future of Bookstores
54:56 Book Recommendations and Final Thoughts
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This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories, the authors behind your favorite books.
Tina Strachan:No matter what sage of writing you are at, we've got you covered. I'm Tina Strachan. And I'm Madeline Cleary,
Madeleine Cleary:and join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors
Tina Strachan:one deal at a time. The book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners, the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
Madeleine Cleary:It's Madeline here. Tina and I normally have our catch up episode this week, but instead, we invited fellow writer, Charlotte guest to join us to answer all our questions about book selling. Charlotte is a writer and bookseller on Wadawurrung Country in Geelong, Victoria. Her writing has been published in National and International Literary Journal. And in 2023, she received her PhD in creative writing from Deakin University, and she was awarded a UNA fellowship in 2025 for her currently unpublished manuscript. The Kookaburra Charlotte manages an indie bookshop, the Book Bird in Geelong, the. And was shortlisted for the 2024 Bookseller of the Year Award for this work. I met Charlotte at the Sorento Writers Festival and over some spontaneous drinks. It didn't take me long to form the opinion that Charlotte is a fast rising star in our industry, so enjoy this conversation. Hi Tina. How are you?
Tina Strachan:I'm really good. Thanks, Madeleine. How are you? Another Friday night. Uh, recording and another wine list Friday night as well. I know. I have tea. Yep,
Madeleine Cleary:I have water. That's okay. We need to, we need to get some, our Friday wines back. I think.
Tina Strachan:I know it could make it a bit more funnier. Um, I, but it's still an exciting night. It is, it's exciting night.
Madeleine Cleary:We have a special guest, don't we? We do. Mm-hmm. Um, who is also, um, a guest? And people will realize that soon. We have Charlotte Guest on the show. Welcome, Charlotte. Hi, Charlotte.
Charlotte Guest:Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Madeleine Cleary:Oh, we're so happy that you are here with us on our Friday night. Do you have a wine?
Charlotte Guest:I don't. At least we all match in our wine.
Madeleine Cleary:We, we bonded over wine, didn't we, Charlotte?
Charlotte Guest:When we, we did. It's very strange to be speaking and we, neither of us have a wine if we like. I know you.
Madeleine Cleary:Actually, yeah. Every other occasion, I think, well, at Willie Lit Sorento, it's what you do at writer's festivals,
Charlotte Guest:even even texting. We've said, do you have wine? I've got a wine Not every combo needs to be fueled by wine, so that's fine.
Madeleine Cleary:That's right, that's right. I'm just like. Putting my hand on my head, I'm just like, oh my gosh. Yes. We, we must sound like winos, but I know,
Charlotte Guest:but tonight we're bucking the trend. That's right.
Madeleine Cleary:That's right. Exactly. So we, we thought we'd invite you on Charlotte, and we really appreciate you coming because um, we. We often, as writers have a lot of questions, I think for booksellers and we wanna work hand in hand with you, and I think it's an important part of our industry, but we thought it's a really good opportunity to talk to someone like you'cause you were shortlisted for Bookseller of the Year, which sounds amazing, and I wanna talk to you all about that and what that means. Thank you. Um, which is, yeah, just an incredible thing. But you are also a, an amazing reader, a huge a writer as well in your own right. Um, and you are. An excellent facilitator and interviewer of authors too. So you've, you've,
Charlotte Guest:I appreciate that.
Madeleine Cleary:Yeah. You have such a diverse background. So I'm really interested, and I actually did see that it was announced that you're gonna be interviewing Jane Harper on her tour in October, which is amazing.
Charlotte Guest:So excited for the Wheeler Center regional programming in Geelong, which will be amazing. Yeah. I've been really thrilled to be asked.
Madeleine Cleary:How does it feel to be, um, an interviewer of such incredible, um, high profile writers? You are a. Definitely I think an an interviewer in demand.
Charlotte Guest:Oh, thank you. I, I don't know about that, but I mean, it's, I mean, it's just such a joy to be able to ask questions directly from the horse's mouth. I mean, you know, how many people get the opportunity to read a book and, um, quiz the author on everything and anything that occurred to you during the reading experience. I mean, it's just, it's a real privilege.
Madeleine Cleary:Mm-hmm. Have you always been a reader and a writer? Charlotte? Um.
Charlotte Guest:Surprisingly, no, I, when I was a child, I, I didn't actually read as much as people might think. I was really an outdoors and athletic and sporty kid. Um, I spent most of my time outdoors. We lived on a sort of bush property growing up, and, um, I spent most of. The day climbing trees. I used to climb a tree and keep a logbook of my neighbor's movements when I was a child, so they was like, that was gold. Yeah. I built this platform, which was not structurally sound, and, um, it was so that I could look to the driveway of the neighbor's house. And then I had a little log book that was wrapped in plastic so it didn't, you know, curl in the rain. And I would say like 10 0 5. Left for the shops, 10 15 returned from shops. It's really, I mean, I was clearly an only child, like no one else to occupy.
Madeleine Cleary:Oh, did your neighbors know this?
Charlotte Guest:I have no idea. I mean, I couldn't have been that discreet. I was like, I was just
Madeleine Cleary:like, there's Charlotte again in the tree.
Charlotte Guest:Better do something interesting, not kill.
Madeleine Cleary:Did you feel, did you feel like you were a detective?
Charlotte Guest:Maybe, I don't know. I mean, I never came upon anything, any spectacular crimes in my time as a detective. But, um, the thing that was sort of a literary touchstone as a, as a child was because I, we had this sort of big backyard. My dad got really into the fire away tree more than I did. He was really into it and he. Made this topsy-turvy land at the top of the trees. Wow. So he had, yeah, it was beautiful. He had passageways and platforms, not the one I built, which was dangerous, but the ones that he built and all these little figures in the trees like sauce man and, you know, moon face. And that was beautiful. So he sort of brought that book to life for me and I never forgot it. So I remembered it when I came back to reading a little bit older, um, that he. Brought that to life in that way, which I think isn't, I don't know. It's, it's, it's over the top, which is typically my dad. But, um, it was meaningful. It was a really meaningful experience where the book was no longer confined to the page. Mm-hmm.
Madeleine Cleary:It's beautiful.
Charlotte Guest:Mm-hmm. It was.
Madeleine Cleary:Um, I'm curious then what, what drew you back to reading? I mean, obviously your dance created this wonderful, magical, far away tree lived experience is what, what brought you back?
Charlotte Guest:I remember as maybe about 14, I was reading again. Sort of casually, but when I was 14 I read a Clockwork Orange by Anthony Burgess. What a book
Madeleine Cleary:to read to get you back.
Charlotte Guest:I don't know how, I mean, for a kid that wasn't a reader, I really don't know why I picked it up.'cause it was, it was really challenging and it is challenging for, for every reader I think because half of it's written in like gibberish. Um, and. That idea of what you can do with language and how you can expand the mind because you know the books, sorry, the, the words used throughout are derived from some Russian words. Some gobby go, some, you know, complete neologisms. And the addition that I had didn't have a glossary.'cause a lot of the modern additions come with a glossary. And the effect of it not having a glossary is that you are. You worked it out for yourself and you had this palpable sense of grammar and, and, um, meaning making and, and contextual learning of words. Because, you know, if you have a sentence like, we were making up our sucs what to do with the evening, then you can, this, you know, you can figure out that sucs must be, we were figuring out our, you know, making up our minds what to do with the evening. But you, you had to, you had to infill that yourself and figure it out. From the paragraphs and the sentences, and it was just such a incredible experience. And then I thought, wow, there must be more like this. And then off we went.
Madeleine Cleary:What about writing? Because you are also a writer. You've written for multiple journals. You, um, have a PhD in creative writing. Um, you, you, you know, you've written a novel as well. Um, unpublished. Unpublished. Well, soon, soon
Charlotte Guest:to be published, perhaps. Okay. One, one Hope. We'll, we'll see. Um, writing I came do, you know, I really don't. I I kept, I kept that logbook. Of my neighbor's movements, and that morphed into. A di a vicious diary of like, um, you know, a 7-year-old being like, mom took me to Toys R Us and we couldn't get both the jumping beans and the this or, and the, what were those little fish things that you could have that, that turned into like monkeys, sea Monkeys. Yes. I was desperate for Sea Monkey. There was a lot of entries on seam monkeys and, um, whether I'd obtained them or not, which was always, I hadn't. And, um, and those, those, you know, those dinosaur things that were like, they absorbed water mm-hmm. And you put them in a, in a, yeah, this is like nineties and early two thousands nostalgia. And you put them in a tank and they would crack open and then they would become a dinosaur. So I kept a diary a lot and it was just a, a lot of complaining about. The toys I didn't have. Um, and then that was kind of this, I don't know, it just, I really apart your creative writing. I'm not really sure, but I know that I was always. Complaining in the written word. Yeah. I mean, that's not, that's not entirely true. There were other things in there, but, um, I remember going through, you know, you hear about writers who have always journaled and then they, you know, revisit those journals decades later and it's like this really beautiful walk down memory lane and, or like, or just, you know, discovering how that seed of writing was. Planted, et cetera. And I thought I'll do that because I've still got them. And I opened them and they were dreadful. Like they were just, they were boring and I don't know, they were slightly dark. Weirdly nasty, but like, not about anyone, but just about like, I don't know, they were just honest. Yeah. Sea monkeys.
Madeleine Cleary:Well, that, that was clearly, um, something that was very important to you at the time. But do you think, I wonder if, did you journal Madeleine as a child? Um, I, I was. Pretty sporadic journal. I I can imagine that Madeleine's journal, if you looked back on it, would be beautiful and had this wonderful trip down, made down, um, memory lane. I'm certain of it, it's more like, oh, I complained about my brother. Or, yeah. At school. Do you think it's because, um, uh, we're clearly writers and we're writers at heart that, but as. As a six and a seven and a eight and a nine and a 10-year-old. That's, we don't know what that means. And we dunno what that writing is. We just know that we wanna write, so we write about whatever, how boring and terrible. And I, I, I feel like I probably use dot points to, to write things'cause that's just how I do. So not much, um, creativity there. But yeah, maybe that's our first step, right?
Charlotte Guest:I, I do remember, um. I used to make this family magazine, um, called the Family Focus as a, as a child. How old are you? Very precocious Charlotte? No, I was just, I was just like, there were no siblings. I like, cannot stress how only this was, this experience was, um. So, and, and you know, we lived way, way outta town, so like friends, it, I mean, it, it felt way outta town to me. It really probably wasn't, but it felt ages, you know, there was a, there's no bus stop or there's no this or that. Um, so I wrote and published as if. Printed off, um, this magazine called The Family Focus and there would be like family member of the week, but there was only two to choose from. It was only mom or dad. So, um, and then like creating a, a crossword where all the clues related to whatever we'd done that week or things to do with the pets or whatever. I don't know. So I mean, that was. Was something, I think it was probably about 10 when I started doing that. That's great. Um, yeah, it was, it, it occupied the, the weekend.
Madeleine Cleary:Yeah. So how does one go from, um, writing a family focused magazine to getting a PhD in creative writing at Deakin University and then becoming a store manager at Book Bird Geelong? Tell us about that journey.
Charlotte Guest:Well, um, it all feels very like one natural. Progression. Um, I, before I did the PhD, I used to work at a university press in Perth, uh, Western Australia. Um, and that I started doing straight after finishing honors in literature. I mean, I dunno, it was always just sort of a follow, follow your interest, follow your, your passions type pathway. Um. And working at the press was such a great experience in terms of how the books actually get made from submission acquisition, um, you know, assessments as to what, who's the intended reader, what's the intended market, the funding, you know, different funding streams and how, um, you know, what, what roles are done in house, what roles are done out of house, uh, particularly in a smaller press. Um. That was just such an incredible snapshot of the entire production line or lifespan of a book. Um, because my role at that press was a lot of the marketing and the publicity. So the, the end part of that process when you have a physical product to market, uh, and things like author care, which is, you know, stepping say a first time author through that whole process.'cause it can be so, um. And difficult to, to grasp when it's your first time. And it's such a, it can feel a very closed industry. Mm-hmm. Um, which in many ways it is. And then I moved to Victoria to do the PhD. Uh. Because it presented an opportunity to have really dedicated time and space to write a full length work of fiction. And it was, except that it coincided with COVID, like, like almost exactly. Um, which made a already isolating experience. Even more so because you do hear PhD candidates, um, say a lot of the time about how, you know, when it's self-driven research and you don't necessarily have coursework or that contact period, contact time with other classmates, that it is different to say, doing your undergraduate or, um, your masters for example, where you do have that core component of coursework and that contact time. Um, so that it was, it. Was not quite what I envisaged it was because that time, that time wasn't what anyone envisaged or expected. Of course. Um, so that was three, four years and that whole time I was there, I was still working at the bookstore. And then, um, just. I've just sort of stuck around. So being the, um, the veteran of the bookstore, I'm now managing the bookstore. Um, and it's just, I don't know, I just love it. It's a really small but mighty little space in Geelong. It's the only independent in Geelong. Um, which is a bit of a strange badge of honor to have because Geelong really should have the population to support more than one independent bookstore, and I'm sure it, it does. It just so happens that at the moment we are the only one. I'm sure that won't always be the case along the surf coast is. A network of amazing independent bookstores. So the Surf coast and the ballin, uh, is sort of our community of independence. Um, and yeah, I mean, it's just such a rich and varied. Job, I, you know, anything from buying, which in itself is fascinating because there's so much that gets published from the major, you know, the multinationals down to the independent presses. Um, things that are indent titles or import titles and locally published works. And when you only have however many square foot. Shelf space. There's a whole, there's a whole raft of things that you have to think about before you decide what you can stock. And it's that whittling down process that I find really fascinating. Well, let's
Madeleine Cleary:talk about that. Yeah, sorry, I'll, we are very fascinated about that and I think there's a lot of discussion at the moment. And Tina and I had a quick chat before this as well. A lot of chat from particularly debut authors about, um. You know what, what happens when your book no longer is in that new release window and then it moves to the shelf? And what decisions do books sellers make when, um, you know, looking at their window and, and it all starts, I think, with the buying. So really interested to hear, yeah. What are you looking for? What are you looking at? How do you make those, how do you whittle that down? There's such a huge breadth of books being published.
Charlotte Guest:It's so. Tough. I've like, I really feel for, um, uh, I'm not sure how to put it. It's, it's, it's so cutthroat and in a way that doesn't always feel good because it's this awkward marriage of art. Commerce in this space, which is not, you know, necessarily unique to book selling, but you know, how much time and love and effort has gone into this piece and the cycle of releases and the cycle of returns and, um, managing your stock levels and all the sort of monetary stuff that goes into that means that it, it is quite, um, cut. Cutthroat. I keep coming back to the phrase cutthroat, but um, yeah, because you are looking, I mean, particularly in our store, which is very, very small, it's all about real estate, shelf real estate. And, um, you know, what's getting the, uh. Marketing and publicity budgets versus what is really powerful by word of mouth. And those two are not necessarily the same things. Um, you'll have your staff, uh, taste and their interest areas, which you will stock more of because you know that the hand selling aspect of book selling is huge. You know, you could have. A book that's out there with all the marketing budget in the world. But if you have another book from a small independent press that one book seller has adored, you'll probably end up selling more units of that. Mm-hmm. Um, but it really. You know, there's a, a returns window that not everybody knows about. Um, where once you tick over that window and you haven't sent it back for credit or you haven't swapped the trade or the larger format down to the B format, um, you are stuck with that, that stock and it does take space.
Madeleine Cleary:Could we talk about sale or return?'cause that is not something that's commonly known.
Charlotte Guest:Yeah, it's funny because, um. New Zealand, for example, unless it's changed in recent years, doesn't have this system. And I'm really glad I'm not a buyer in New Zealand's market. If this is still the case, it may well have changed, but it certainly didn't used to be whatever they would order that is, is a, is a firm sale order or an order that you can't return. I'm really glad that we have it here because it means that you can experiment with things. It means you can trial things that might be a little bit more unusual because the, the way that sale and return or return works is that you order in an item and you have to keep it for at least three months to give it a chance to sell, um, a chance to be discovered, reviewed, et cetera. After that three months. You then have up to 12 months to send it back to the distributor and you will get a full credit for that item that goes against your account that you can then reallocate to order something else. So we are constantly doing returns because it means that we can, we can change, and I know a lot of bookstores do returns in batches. They'll do them every three months or whatever. But you know, I found it easiest to do it as a, um. Sort of constantly evolving thing because space is at such a premium. Um, but it just means that your inventory can constantly evolve and almost breathe. It gives it this organic feel, and when you are ordering, it means you don't have to. Really stress over the fact that if I get five copies and I only sell two, you know, I, I've got this much, I'm holding up my fingers here. I've got this much real estate that I've allocated to this book on the shelf that I'm not sure if I can move it or not. So yeah, it encourages more risk taking, I think, in the ordering side of things, which is good for authors, but it does mean that. Three months down the track, you might start to see some books come back, but that's very, that's very normal.
Madeleine Cleary:Yeah. Can I ask Charlotte, so what is a. Normal amount of books for you to order in the first instance. And I'm sure it depe, I'm sure it changes depending on genre and, you know, an author. But for a, for a standard debut, say, so it doesn't have, um, a history. How many books generally are you, would you be looking at?
Charlotte Guest:Bear in mind that we are a very small store, so, um, it might sound really minuscule, but we are such a tiny shop, um, for a debut. That, that, you know, um, you are trialing the book. You love the sound of it. You, I would probably usually start with three units. Mm-hmm. And the. The reason for that is because, um, if something has been selected through the big group buy, which is from a lot of places, this place called Book People, which is the newly rebranded Australian Bookseller Association, so the national body, they will often do, um. Scale discounts for items that are new that the publishers want to promote or get you to pay attention to. And the minimum for that do for you to get an extra trade discount is usually three and three. Gives you enough to make it look really good on the shelf, plentiful, the way that we've designed the layout anyway, but it doesn't overcommit you.
Madeleine Cleary:Mm-hmm. I think that's a good point. Thank you. Because, um, I think a lot of people don't realize that it can be so low four, like not low, but you know, three's a good number like you said. But, um, yeah, I think a lot of authors don't realize that that's, that can be quite common for a lot of indie booksellers anyway, that, that three's the standard number and sometimes less.
Charlotte Guest:Sometimes less. Um, because the beauty of it is that, you know, for the publishers that have distribution through the national. Distributors, their, their delivery time is, you know, maybe only three business days. So you can get your initial order of three, you, it can be a bit longer, let's say, let's say seven days on average. But you can get your initial order of three. And if you start to see this is something that people are paying attention to, you can immediately do your next top up of six within a week.
Speaker 4:Mm-hmm.
Charlotte Guest:Yeah. So it's flexible like that. It's not, um, set in stone.
Madeleine Cleary:I wanna talk about the power of indie bookshops as well, because there is a, I think a power, and you mentioned it before that, um, uh, you know, while a book could have so much buzz around it, lots of marketing budget, a lot of publicity, hype, there are those books that. Particularly indie bookshops can champion. Um, and these perhaps don't have that same buzz and hype and spend, and a lot of debut authors often do fall into that category because often publishers will just see what sticks. They'll give you a go and see what happens. And so there is a lot of power behind that hand selling. How do you think authors can work with indie bookshops to, I suppose, rise above the pack?
Charlotte Guest:If you're a local to an area and you have the opportunity to introduce yourself to your independent bookseller, um. Absolutely do that. To have a face to a book is so powerful and to know that they're local to your area.'cause a lot of independent bookstores want to champion their local authors. Um, often we get sent arcs, which are advanced reading copies of books so that booksellers have the opportunity to read something pre-release. And that is really important as well. Um, that's part of the marketing and publicity budget. Um, to actually print those arcs because, you know, that's not cheap. Um, a really good example of a book that has been beloved in our shop and is really like odd is. There's one that came out through Raimondo called, it Lasts Forever and then it's over. And it is a literary zombie novel and it is the strangest read, but it is so incredible. It won the Novel Prize, um, which was first won by Jessica Owl called Enough for Snow a few years ago. This was, I believe, last year's winter. Um. And it is a strange bird, but we have really taken it under our wing to extend the metaphor clumsily. Um, and it had practically no, I mean, it did get reviewed because it is excellent, but in terms of that marketing machine, like it just wasn't one that you were gonna see advertised everywhere or on social media everywhere. But we have sold so many copies because. It's a little gem. Mm-hmm. And it's something that we've championed, um, in terms of what authors can do. I think that communication and being approachable and being open and also, um, I guess being aware of. Things like, you know, an opening order of only three is, is, is not unusual. It's actually, it's quite normal. And yeah, just the, being aware of the context of, I suppose, of how many books there are contending for shelf space. It's, it's really tough, but, um, it's tough, but not impossible.
Madeleine Cleary:Yeah, what are some things that authors shouldn't do? Like there's a few, give us some do's and don'ts of, you know, um, approaching a bookstore as well, because, um, this is, you know, something that we talk about in a debu crew a little bit as well. Uh, how do we go in there and, and say hi? Because no one, um, wants to look like they're just coming in to say hi. So it helps. Sell their book, say, but they, but to try and make that genuine connection. And what, what some tips, and I'd add to that too, there's a few schools of thought that's going around, like theories as well. Like some Oh, are there? Yeah. That we, we get advice that, um, we should only do the official book tour, that that's been organized by our publishers. That bookstores know that we're coming, whereas others are saying no. If you are in the area, drop in, say hi.
Charlotte Guest:From my perspective, um, I, I think that probably the best approach. Is to have an email contact first so that the book seller can prepare for your visit. As in ha make sure that they have copies of your book for starters.'cause there's nothing that makes you feel worse if they just happened to have come in and maybe you sold the last copy. You didn't realize that they were coming in two days later and you haven't had a chance to reorder it. Um, so that, that. Pre-warning is really valued'cause it just gives you a chance to get organized and make sure that you can welcome them warmly and in the fashion that you'd like to. Um, something that was, uh, was a really interesting thing when you do email, uh. A bookstore is to just highlight who the publisher or the distributor is because say for example, you have a publisher that may be a smaller press, but they are an agent or agented by a major distributor. Um, sometimes if you don't highlight that. It looks like it, it, it does appear that it's independently published and that would therefore have to be a consignment arrangement. Mm-hmm. Um, whereas say for example, you have, I'm trying to think of an example. Um, so like,
Madeleine Cleary:for example, I think it's a Freeman Press is distributed by Harper College. Harper. Well,
Charlotte Guest:they their penguin. But yes, that, that's a good example. Like, um, Freemantle Press most booksellers would be familiar with, but there's, um. There's some smaller outfits. Say for example, a new press called, um, pink Shorts Press in Adelaide, who are doing some really interesting books at the moment. Um, they're a new publisher on the blog, but they are distributed by Simon and Schuster. So if you are an one of their authors and you're just alerting your local bookstore or bookstores, um, about your book, uh, if it, if you happen to mention that, it's through Simon and Schuster. And pink shorts press, that bookstore will know that they can get it through the main easy clicker button channel, which is just an, it's just appealing to a bookseller or a book buyer to know that it's an easy order. They can experiment on it, and it is able to be returned if it doesn't happen to sell, rather than a consignment arrangement that requires paperwork, individual ordering through. An independent supplier, which is not to say that bookstores don't do that, particularly independents do, but it's, you wanna make it as easy as possible for them to take the book.
Madeleine Cleary:Hmm. And how early should, um, writers engage with bookstores? Should they do this after the books come out, or should they,'cause I know your buying probably three to four months in advance. When's the, the perfect time to, to have those conversations?
Charlotte Guest:Oh, look, I mean, I'm sure other book buyers have, um, some real preferences. I, I really, I mean, when it comes to us, it's either myself or the owner, Anna, um, who, who is placing those orders. I really don't mind if you're going six months out, that's possibly a bit early because it's not really on the radar yet. Um, even if it's post-release, it's easy to get. Things in pretty quickly, like I said. But, um, I'd say as a, as a general rule, maybe a month before release just gives, um, particularly the smaller bookstores who may be sort of dealing with, you know, however many multiple tasks a day, it allows them to sort of flag it, sit it, attend to it, and they can still order and get it in time for release if they wish. Um, so maybe a month, I'd say.
Madeleine Cleary:Perfect. That's very good. Tangible of advice. And, and, uh, what about signing your book, Charlotte? There's been, um, some people, uh, like to just go into the bookshop and pick up the book and sign it regardless. Um, what's your, your. Shaking your head my without asking. So, um, yep. So that sounds like not the, not the way to go,
Charlotte Guest:not the way to go, only because it makes you panic for a second that someone's just vandalizing a book. Uh, I mean, obviously people don't tend to do that, but I think, uh, introducing yourself, I don't know, just in terms of the ex that exchange or that encounter, it's. Probably best not to just pick something off the shelf and start scribbling in it. Um, I know it can, it probably can be really daunting to, to go into a bookstore and, and introduce yourself in that way. Um, but I think that would be practicable then to just sort of go undercover and try and scribble and get out quickly because the other part of that. Uh, interaction is that usually the bookseller will wanna have an opportunity to take some photos and promote on their social media channels. Um, and it just makes it incredibly awkward if they're like intercepting you mid, mid scribble saying, just checking. You're the author. Um, yeah. So I, I probably would make it apparent, but that's what you're doing. Yes. And they, oh,
Madeleine Cleary:sorry. You go Tina. I was gonna say, they often have these really nice little stickers that they put on the front too that says signed by the author, which is
Charlotte Guest:exactly, yeah, and anything you can, anything that sets your book apart from its neighbors on the shelf, you know, whether that's a glossy sticker, which is what we have, if it's been signed, that stock will normally go face out, and you'd be amazed at the difference it makes if something is face out versus spine out. All those little things do make a difference.
Madeleine Cleary:Exactly. No, I think that that's some really, really good tips and I, I think, um, being able to, um, if you are just popping into store, say you don't plan it, you haven't had time to email. If you are walking into a store, if you go and find your books on the shelf, so it's not like you're going up saying, oh, I'm the author. Do you have my books? And then having that awkward interaction. If the bookstore doesn't, you could go if you find your books on the shelf and then take it up. That's a really good way to introduce yourself and say, I'm absolutely would like me to sign
Charlotte Guest:it. Absolutely. Yeah, of course. Um, you know, there's no real hard and fast rules, but yeah, if you happen to be in a bookstore and you see your book, come up to us and tell that that's such a beautiful moment. We love that.
Madeleine Cleary:There you go. You've heard it on the book deal podcast.'cause we have a few authors being very anxious and nervous about doing that. So put that aside. Go and introduce yourselves to the booksellers. And booksellers are very nice people as well. Everyone likes books, so Of course. Mm-hmm. Of course. They're great people.
Charlotte Guest:You have to say that I'm sitting right here. Although you used to be a bookseller as well, didn't you? Madeleine,
Madeleine Cleary:years ago. A decade ago. Yes. Yes.
Charlotte Guest:Were you a bookseller as well, Tina?
Madeleine Cleary:No. No. I am the only one here that has not been a bookseller.
Charlotte Guest:Maybe one day.
Madeleine Cleary:Maybe one day.
Speaker 5:Hello, lovely listeners. My name is Kasey Whitelaw and I'm thrilled to tell you all about my debut picture book. Flute, A Dolphin's Wild Journey home. It's illustrated by the super talented Jenny Goodman and published by the wonderful team at Wombat Books. Flute, a playful dolphin is separated from her dolphin party alone and in danger. She begins a wild journey back to the safety of her family and friends. But will she make it home? Flute is an inspiring story about friendship, support, and determination. It also raises vital awareness about the threats dolphins face from boating and noise pollution worldwide. This story was actually inspired by my seven years working at Monkey Meyer in the stunning Shark Bay world heritage area in Western Australia. This is where I had the privilege of working alongside the real flute, her family, and all her wonderful friends. I was able to watch their busy lives full of mischief and mayhem, and this is actually where I discovered their deep need for friendship, community, and support. Inspired by these true events and real friendships. Flute takes readers on a fun and wild ride. You'll journey along with her as she makes her way through a seagrass maze, slips and slides off a sandbar, dodges stinging sea jellies, and fends off a tiger shark. Plus the storyline is full of fascinating facts about dolphins. The back matter tells you more about the real Flute and provides practical ways to help dolphins. Thank you to Tina and the Book Deal podcast for this opportunity to share flute with you today. Flute is available now.
Madeleine Cleary:I wanna talk about events, author events. Um, how, so there are some bookstores that do a lot of events, others don't. Can you talk perhaps a little bit about, um, how important are bookshops to the community, firstly, and also how you think authors should go about perhaps approaching a, a bookstore, about doing a running event.
Charlotte Guest:I love events. They are, we are yet to find the magic. Formula because they perhaps are more difficult than they would seem. Not, not difficult in a prohibitive way, but for a small bookstore like ours, um, we have a really small team. And so doing events in the shop, um, there's all sorts of hidden costs involved that may not, um, sort of immediately pop to mind. One of the ones that no one ever thinks of that. Is really significant is the fact that in order to do events in the store, we have to move all of the displays, which are heavy blocks full of books, and that means we had then have to close the shop early, which means you then potentially, you know, you've closed the shop at. Three instead of five. You've got two hours where you would normally have been open, where you are actually just paying a staff wage to do setup. Um, and so it's all sort of finicky things like that. We have done, um, plenty of events offsite and we'll continue to do that. Um, we've got things coming up in a couple of months, but for our shop at least, it's mostly one or two people who are doing them. So it's really just a. Personal capacity thing, I think as well. Like, you know, what do you feel you have the energy to do this month? Um,'cause if they are, they can be one or two man band type, um, efforts. So there's that. We, I love what. Events bring to a town, though, particularly a regional town. We're uncomfortably classed as regional even though we're sort of a city, but sort of not. Um, but I know that our readers and community love them, which is why we're constantly trying to find different ways of doing them, whether that's a offsite event space. And then the issue there is do you have a venue, higher cost, et cetera, et cetera. Mm. Um, or do you do them in the store where your capacity to be comfortable is about 30, therefore your potential sales are limited, therefore, et cetera, et cetera. Um, so yes, we love them, but they may are not as straightforward as perhaps it seems for. Tiny shop like ours. I know that other stores just have it down to a really well oiled machine, and we will hopefully get there. Mm-hmm.
Madeleine Cleary:Yeah, some stores do multiple in a day and an evening and just amazing roll one after the other. Yeah. I'm so jealous. But they're big. They're big. They're big, big stores with lots of space and staff. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And they can stay open. Like I think about readings, you know, they can stay open Yes to, to customers while also running events
Charlotte Guest:that is ama. Isn't that just the most ideal scenario where you can have your doors open at the same time as having a dedicated event? I mean, that's just the dream. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Madeleine Cleary:Absolutely. Um, I wanna also, um, talk about the, the shortlist, the Bookseller award. Um, let me get that right again. Bookseller of the Year Award. You are shortlisted for last year. What makes a good bookseller, Charlotte? And tell us about that Shortlisting.
Charlotte Guest:Well, I wanna talk about who won, who was my amazing colleague down at the Queenscliff Bookstore. Matt Davis. He is the co-owner of the Queenscliff Bookstore with Jane Tuttle, who is also an author and they are incredible. So if I was gonna lose to anyone, I was really happy to lose to match because I mean, the. The kind of work that, that Matt and Jane have done for the Queenscliff community. For example, they did a competition or, or an initiative with a local school as a writing competition and then bound and published that into a book for the kids who are contributed to be sold in the bookstore. Wow. Um. Community focused, things like that. They do an enormous amount of events and initiatives. They do, you know, fundraising. Um, it's something that is really the spirit of what independent bookstores and booksellers should be. I think so, um. That's, I guess, kind of the idea of the award. I mean, every year you have just these incredible people who don't go into this line of work for the money, let's be honest. Mm-hmm. You know, they go because they, they love words, writing, literature, community, um, and. The connection. I don't know all of those incredible things, but also are aware of the enormous work that goes on behind the scenes. Um, so yeah, that, I don't know what makes a good bookseller. I mean, every, yeah. Uh, I think maybe just a sense of openness or curiosity, maybe Curiosity is what's. Possible within the confines of a small business, um, that deals with stories and voices and championing the voices that should be championed and all that sort of stuff.
Madeleine Cleary:Mm-hmm. I love that. What have been some of your favorite moments as a bookseller? Mm-hmm.
Charlotte Guest:Um, well, at Christmas we have this one family who come in every year and they have a spreadsheet and. The spreadsheet is sort of the central place like that. We have to say, oh, don't get that because Susan's already bought you that. And, but, or not, not Susan's already bought you, that, that would be a spoiler. But as in, um, we manage, you know, one particular family's all their Christmas buying and it's so gorgeous and wholesome. Um, things like. Meeting people at very specific intersections of their lives and the reasons that maybe a non-reader would turn to a book, um, at a specific point or for a need. Um, often that can be at a time of grief and you. Get these insights into people and what they're going through that you sometimes wonder, like maybe close friends or certain family members do, but there is a real intimacy sometimes to being somebody's bookseller, um, because they will disclose to you what they're seeking in a story or what they're seeking from a book or how, or what ways in they would like to be surprised by something. That tells you a lot about what people are grappling with. Um, that's always been very special to me. Uh,'cause it's a sense of trust, I guess, that they entrust you with that information and that privacy I suppose, as well. Um, yeah, and just, um, celebrating different, I don't know, stories and yeah, it's quite. I'm, I know often being a bookseller can be overly romanticized. Um, but when you are cherry picking the highlights that they, they are the romantic moments because that's why you're there.
Madeleine Cleary:Yes. And of course, you know, there are the less romantic moments. Yeah, yeah. The dusting. Yes,
Charlotte Guest:the dusting. I wrote the endless dusting.
Madeleine Cleary:It's amazing how much dust can gather just over a few days, isn't it, on those shelves.
Charlotte Guest:And the funniest thing is, you know, just, um, not speaking of the dust, but you know, when people go into bookstores and they go, oh, I love, I love the smell of a bookstore. And people say that to us like a lot. I've literally never smelled that smell. I dunno what it is. You're so used to it. I'm used to it. Well. No, but even like, like I've never, I've never smelt it. I was just like, people come and they go, Ooh, like that paper and that ink and you know, book smell. And I always agree as if I know what they're talking about. I have no idea what that smell is.
Madeleine Cleary:Do you know, in the bookstore that I used to work to, when I work at the, the shop next door was a schnitzel shop. Oh. When I associate book selling, I associate with the smell of schnitzel fried chicken. Oh. Yeah, I about that smell. No, I must admit, I, yeah, and every time people would walk in, they'd go, Ooh, way
Charlotte Guest:expected. Yeah. Well, the, the shop next to us is a shoe shop, so maybe it's like a combination of paper and like boot polish. Yeah. It's a
Madeleine Cleary:leather. Oh, well, it's a very important job. Charlotte, I think, and booksellers are we?
Charlotte Guest:We like to think so. People's lives,
Madeleine Cleary:it truly changed people's lives, I think. Yes. But for the authors and the people who are purchasing the books. Yeah. And without, you know, without the bookstores, you know, we as authors, we wouldn't be able, and us as a publishing industry really couldn't. Publish the breadth and diversity that we have. Because if we're always looking online for our books, if there's something so different, like you said about seeing a face out book and shelf, or even as, as kids coming into a store, being able to peruse, um, all the different picture story books. Like you don't get that, that same thing online that you get in a physical bookstore.
Charlotte Guest:You don't, and I think cultivating that. Point of difference is really essential to our survival. I think. Um, just the experiential nature of walking into a physical space. Um, so shifting emphasis from, um, the product alone and the price point.'cause you just can't compete on price. You can't compete with the online retailers, and you can't compete with the d Compete with the ddss, the discount department stores, which is a. Ongoing challenge to communicate why those outlets are a problem. Um, but that's a whole other conversation. But being able to create a physical, an offline experience, um, within a space is what will keep us open. You know, whether it's the decorations, the smell, apparently, um, the. The lighting. I don't know, just the whole setup of the space. We have kids who form rituals around the store as a destination. Like, you know, every Saturday morning there'll be these two little pink bikes out the front because they've chucked their bikes on the balcony before coming in to sit in the kids section for half an hour. And it, it, you know, it creating those. That living, that sense of something that's being lived in or a living thing, I don't know. It's, it's the thing you have to use because the other, the other aspects of it, you can't beat the prices that you are facing. So yeah, it's a tricky balance. Hmm.
Madeleine Cleary:Yeah. You're creating a space, I think. Well, I think that's a good then, um, segue to talk about the future. How do you see the future? You attend lots of different conferences on the book industry. You are, you very much have your finger on the pulse of it. What, what do you think is the future? And, and I know there's a lot of talk about trends and, and writing to trends and considering trends in your writing, so I'm interested in your thoughts. Or we close.
Charlotte Guest:I always find trends really fascinating. I must say. I am not chronically online and I always feel like I'm late to the trend party. The way that I get trends is, or when I pick up trends, is through the ordering. And by the time you're ordering something, the trend has probably already been around for I, um, so I do feel like a little bit of a dinosaur sometimes'cause I'm not on book talk or anything like that. Um, but I get that information otherwise, um. Trends in, I, I'm not sure if trying to write to a trend is the best advice because trends can change so quickly and they, you just see them change so quickly, and by the time you've written a book, which is a long, you know, gestation, that trend may have passed. So I think simply writing what. What keeps your attention and what is the question? I think sometimes writing to a question can be more engaging because it seems that it would sustain you for longer than trying to write to a market and a market that can be, you know, so changeable. Um, but I mean, don't take my advice as a writer'cause you know, I'm more of a bookseller. Um, but the future I think. People have always rung the death now of bookstores and that it's been ringing for decades. And some, it was
Madeleine Cleary:ringing when I joined book selling 15 years ago as well. This is new. Yeah,
Charlotte Guest:it's not, it's not new. The idea that, you know, bookstore and when you look at the stats, you know, there are fewer bricks and mortar bookstores in some ways, you know, uh, in other ways. There are more dedicated specialist bookstores like the romance bookstore that you mentioned, Tina, and that. That is a really emerging thing. There are a number of dedicated romance bookstores, um, that are doing really well in our, in our opening. Um, I think grit is necessary and just an unwavering belief in the bookstore because yeah, when I, I mean even before being in publishing, I was back in book selling. I used to work in a DIMMs, um, and everyone was really panicked about eBooks and. You know, digital books of what the, what the online space was gonna do for bookstores. And that's not to diminish how hard it can be because you're constantly trying to, um, adapt and change in order to stay relevant and stay open. Um, but in other ways you flourish because there are, there are elements to your bookstore that. Is, um, nowhere else. It's, I think focusing on the bookstore as a, as a destination and as a place that is only our place. There's only one book Bird in Geelong and there's only one physical place you can go that is that place, even though you can get the books elsewhere. That's what's kept us. A live 10. I mean, we are 10 years old this year. Mm. So we are reaching that milestone and I've been there for seven, uh, of those 10. So, and that's, I mean, that's a testament to the really hard work of our owner as well. Anna, who had, who opened the bookstore in 2015, um, and opening a bookstore in 2015. I mean, what are you doing? Kind of thing. But it worked because, you know, there's a lot. Smarts and hard work to make. Keeping it going. I don't know. I dunno what the future is, but I hope it's bright.
Madeleine Cleary:Mm-hmm. Oh, I feel optimistic with you as a book seller, Charlotte. Oh, thanks. It sounds wonderful. And you know, for those, um, listeners who are in Victoria or visiting Victoria, visiting Regional Victoria, even though Geelong is a city, I don't wanna upset any of our Geelong listeners. Do, do definitely go down and, and visit Charlotte at the book, at the book Bird. Um, it's, um, it sounds like a very special place. Now to finish, we always ask our guests one final question, Charlotte, and I probably didn't prep you for this as well. Um, could you give us, you've given us so much already, but could you give us one last top tip for, for emerging writers?
Charlotte Guest:I thought you were gonna ask me what am I reading? And I was all prepared to give you my book recommendation. You can also
Madeleine Cleary:give us your book recommendations. I would love to know your book recommendation.
Charlotte Guest:I might, I might pivot to that because I dunno if I have any writers. I have tips for booksellers, but I dunno about writers. I mean, writers. I feel
Madeleine Cleary:like you've got a lot of tips, Charlotte. I'm sure we've talked writing before and I feel like you definitely do.
Charlotte Guest:We have, I don't know if I can, um, claim to have any really great tips, but I'll tell you what I'm reading do, which is, um, a couple of things that I would recommend. Um, I am Nana Ook by SMA Walton was. Incredible. Um, a new book. It's her second novel by Bun Wang, writer and actor. People might be more familiar with her as an actor, um, but you should absolutely read her novel. It is a really generous, um. And harrowing portrayal of her ancestor, Nana Ook on, um, BIR and Country who was, uh, kidnapped by, uh, sealers during that violent period in Australian colonial history. The element of the novel that I really loved sort of relates back to, um. What I loved about a clockwork orange, which is that throughout the prose, uh, SMA weaves, um, bud Wang language through it. So a, a non-speaker can pick up words and learn language within the context of fiction, which is a very different way to learn language than say, in a classroom. Um, it's a, it's like you, you start. Absorbing it by osmosis and it's so beautiful. Um, so I would highly recommend. That novel. It's, um, it's, it's been out for maybe a month. I saw TAs at
Madeleine Cleary:Walton, at the Sorento Writers Festival, actually on a panel with Anita, um, Hy. And it was just in a fantastic and, uh, extraordinary story. And it's on my two be ride pile. Um, so I'm going to, you must,
Charlotte Guest:you must read it. Yeah. And I think. It's by a new imprint that is published by Anita Heis. Um, so that's really one to watch. The other, uh, book that I would recommend is by her Hand, by Marian Taf, um, that I just adored. Uh, another example of historical fiction, but 10th Century Mercy this time. Uh, which is England. Before it was England, looking at old English poetry. Again, really interested in language and the way we form and un formm ourselves through words and, and writing really one for writers, uh, and the history of writing and scriptoriums. Uh, just so much I could say about it, but I know that we are running out of time, so I'll just let people find it for
Madeleine Cleary:themselves. And we actually do, we've interviewed Marian on our podcast. Oh, fabulous. Which is, yes, I've read. Um, I've read by her hand twice now because we did an event together and it is an extraordinary novel in Incre. I can't believe it's her debut. I know, I know. Isn't that crazy? When, when we first, uh, so we, we've known Mari and Tina and I now for what, a couple of years now, wouldn't it, Tina? And. I remember when we were all talking about our practices and, and, um, and the way Marian was describing her depth of research in terms of the, um, old English and how she interrogated the, the in history and, um, and even her writing practice. She said that she didn't write chapters, she just, she just wrote, um, and got the story and the flow. And so we always knew it was gonna be an extraordinary novel, didn't we, Tina? Yes. But that story has always horrified me of going of just writing it in one continuous flow and then having to put chapters in it at the end. But didn't, Tina's a very good plotter and planner.
Charlotte Guest:Oh my goodness. I didn't realize that's how she wrote it. That's incredible.
Madeleine Cleary:Yes. Yes. And so she had to manually try and work out the beats where she would put chapters in, in insert chapters. So
Charlotte Guest:that sounds like, oh, that's in, yeah. Sorry, Tina. No, I was just
Madeleine Cleary:gonna say in instinctual writing though, she knows where everything needs to go and it's just about tidying it up at the end, so, mm-hmm. Whatever you've gotta do to get the words out and on the paper.
Charlotte Guest:Well, it's obviously working. Mm-hmm. So I hope she writes all her novels that way.
Madeleine Cleary:Yeah. Yes, we agree. Well, Marian is a, is a podcast friend, so hopefully, I'm sure she'll be listening into this. Um, and, uh, we can, we can tag her. Thanks for that recommendation. Welcome. Alright Tina, is there anything else? No, I was just gonna say, I'm sorry. I, I feel like I was a bit quiet because I at times forgot that I was here and was, I thought I was,
Charlotte Guest:I'm sorry. I feel like I spoke in a great big rush for most of that.
Madeleine Cleary:No, you were perfect. What I do is I actually, when um, I'm on camera, I actually move my screen so I can't even see myself because I find that really distracting. So I've just been watching YouTube and I felt like I was just listening to a podcast every episode. It was very interesting. And then I'd be like, oh, I should ask more about that. I can, because I'm here. So anyway, it was very, you guys were great. Thank you. All right. Well thank you Charlotte guest so much for joining us on the book Deal podcast. We know that writers, readers, booksellers will just find this podcast very fascinating and I feel like we have to come back in a few years and see what the future of the industry's gonna look like, and I'm hoping it'll be a very positive one for I hope so too. Thank you. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you so much, Charlotte.
Tina Strachan:Thank you for listening to the Book Deal podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the pod so you can receive updates as soon as our new apps drop and to keep up to date with what the pod is doing. You can also find us on Instagram.