The Book Deal

The Takeover: Michelle See-Tho on winning a major literary prize, what happens behind the scenes after the win, and invaluable editing tips

• The Book Deal • Season 1 • Episode 46

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In this episode of the Book Deal Podcast, host Natasha Rai interviews Michelle See-Tho, the 2023 Penguin Literary Prize winner. Michelle discusses her debut novel, 'Jade and Emerald,' the thematic elements of class, race, loneliness, and family in her story, and her journey from ideation to publication. She reflects on her experience in the Kill Your Darlings Mentors Program, which helped shape her manuscript, and the subsequent process of winning the prestigious Penguin Literary Prize. The conversation covers the intricate details of structural and line edits, cover design deliberations, and the ensuing publicity and launch events. Michelle also shares valuable advice for aspiring writers, emphasizing perseverance and the importance of constantly improving one's craft.

00:00 Introduction to the Book Deal Podcast

00:34 Meet Michelle See-Tho: Freelance Writer and Award-Winning Author

01:18 Discussing 'Jade and Emerald': Themes and Inspirations

02:43 The Writing Process: From Idea to Manuscript

08:48 Mentorship and Development: The Kill Your Darlings Program

14:42 Submitting to Competitions: The Road to Winning the Penguin Literary Prize

18:46 The Moment of Victory: Winning the Penguin Literary Prize

21:39 Special Segment: Introducing Emma Babington and Her Novel 'The Neighbors'

22:19 Liv's Quest and the Murder Mystery

23:03 The Announcement and Penguin Office Visit

24:08 Structural Edits and Initial Changes

27:30 Line Edits and Cover Design

31:09 Publication and Publicity

36:24 Reflections and Advice for Writers



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Natasha Rai:

This is the Book Deal Podcast, monthly takeover by your host, Natasha Rai. I'll be bringing you even more debut and season authors as they talk about their path to publication.

Madeleine Cleary:

The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.

Natasha Rai:

Michelle See-Tho is a freelance writer and copywriter. She has had articles and stories published in Kill Your Darlings, Overland, and the Big Issue Fiction Edition. Jade and Emerald, her first novel won the 2023 Penguin Literary Prize. Hi, Michelle See-Tho, welcome to the Book Deal podcast.

Michelle See-Tho:

It's great to be here. Natasha,

Natasha Rai:

how are you today?

Michelle See-Tho:

Not too bad. Uh, a little cold down here in Melbourne, otherwise. Okay.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah, I bet. And just for listeners, we are recording this quite late on a Tuesday night, so thank you for making the time.

Michelle See-Tho:

It's not a problem at all. I'm really excited to be here.

Natasha Rai:

Excellent. So I wanted to talk to you about your novel, your debut novel, Jade and Emerald, and also the process and your publication journey. But I just wanna start by saying that I absolutely loved your novel. And I read it in a couple of days. So how do you feel about giving me your elevator pitch for Jade and Emerald?

Michelle See-Tho:

I would love to do that. So Jade and Emerald is the story of a lonely, tall year old girl who forms an unlikely friendship with a older, rich hedonistic socialite. Their friendship strains her relationship with her mother, which is already fraught because her mum's really strict. It covers themes of class and race, loneliness, and family as well, and it's set in Australia in the 1990s.

Natasha Rai:

Excellent. You've had a bit of practice at that.

Michelle See-Tho:

Yeah. Well, I mean, we can talk about that as well, but that was one of the requirements for the Penguin Literary prize.

Natasha Rai:

Ah, yes. Yeah. Yes. So this novel did win the 2023 Penguin Literary Prize. Congratulations again.

Michelle See-Tho:

Thank you. Thank you.

Natasha Rai:

And I do wanna come to that, but I'm actually dying to ask you some questions about the novel itself. Yes. So, if it's okay to start there. So the three characters I was really drawn into the. Two different very relationships. I was really interested in the relationship she has with her mum and then the relationship we ha she has with, did you say Gigi or Giggy?

Michelle See-Tho:

Gigi.

Natasha Rai:

Gigi. It is Gigi. Yeah. So I'm curious as to what your starting point was. How did you start this manuscript, this novel?

Michelle See-Tho:

I mean like I guess the idea for it kind of came to me after a long time of me trying to develop an idea for a novel. Like I knew that I wanted to write a novel, but I didn't really know what it was gonna be about or anything like that. And I was kind of playing around with a lot of different ideas and none of them grabbed me as a plot worthy of a novel length book.

Natasha Rai:

The ideas that you were playing with, did you have characters in mind at that time or were you mainly playing with story?

Michelle See-Tho:

A bit of both. I did notice that there were a lot of themes that kept recurring. So one of the big ones was loneliness. Another one was class. I often kind of had young protagonists. There wasn't really anything kind of concrete until in COVID and in like the lockdown in 2021. And I, I do specifically remember this mument where I was sort of drying my hair and I was thinking about this idea of, uh, unlikely friendship between a child and. An adult, it's sort of like built out from there.

Natasha Rai:

Mm-hmm. And so out of that, what's your process? Are you a plotter or do you like to start writing scenes? How, how does that work for you?

Michelle See-Tho:

Yeah, you know, it's quite interesting because with the ideas that I'd had before Jade and Emerald that weren't really going anywhere, I felt like they were a bit more pants esque and I'd sort of just like ride outta scene and then I wouldn't really know what to do with it after that. But with Jade and Emerald, what came to me first was that kind of friendship and then I'd sort of built the plot around that without really writing too much, if that makes sense. Like sort of just going like the story beats. And I think for whatever reason, that was really helpful in me kind of like making it into like an actual novel because I sort of knew what was gonna happen.

Natasha Rai:

Hmm. And without giving away any spoilers Hmm. How did you conceive of this adult person who might form a friendship with a, a child, essentially?

Michelle See-Tho:

Yeah. I think like I was just really interested in someone who was. Glamorous and fabulous, but also someone who was unlike anything that my protagonist had ever met before, and almost like the opposite to her mother and who's, you know, sort of her main parent figure in her life. I really liked, yeah, that kind of contrast between the two of them. And I also kind of was interested in the idea of like someone who could look after my narrator, but that wasn't apparent and that wasn't related to it.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah, and again, I'm, I'm choosing my words very carefully, but what I loved about it was the aspects of Lei Ling's personality that Gigi really speaks to that kind of fun childlike quality.'cause she is very childlike in the things she loves. And she allows Lei Ling almost to be that 12-year-old because when she's with her mum. And I really got that too. Like I really understood that responsibility and the financial burdens and the stresses that she has to help her mum kind of, not bear them, but share them, I guess. And there was this beautiful escape out of that for her with this, in this friendship.

Michelle See-Tho:

Yeah, I, I'm really glad that that kind of comes across, was kind of one of the things I wanted, I guess like with Gigi's lifestyle, you know, her having so much money gives her the freedom to be quiet, childlike, like even as an adult, she still lives with her family, which is very common in Asian cultures as well. But I think it is also a little bit of a sign of like, she hasn't really matured that much. Her job was given to her by her father. She just never really have to work for anything. And so she is kind of able to be like quite childlike in that regard.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah, and I mean that, I've definitely felt that when I was reading it. So once you started writing, kind of plotting out the beats, as you say, how did her mum's character evolve for you?

Michelle See-Tho:

Her mother was actually kind of a contrast to Gigi in that I wanted her to have a reason to want to go with this strange adult woman. Yes. Because I think like it would be a bit unusual, I guess, for her to just run off with this woman that she doesn't know. So I built the mother as like a, a force that sort of pushes her away. She is got like this quite fraught relationship with her mother. Mother's really strict. She doesn't kind of let her do things that. Her friends might consider normal or peers rather. And so like it, that kind of acts as a reason for her to get away from.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah, and you know, I was really torn between feeling a lot of sympathy and empathy for both mother and daughter while also feeling like there were times where I'm like, this is. So punitive and feeling so bad for both of them.'cause that element that you talk about, loneliness just really came through that even together. They're both just cocooned in their own loneliness. Yeah, it was so beautifully done.

Michelle See-Tho:

Oh, thank you. And yeah, it's really nice to hear that. It kind of comes across that way.'cause I did kind of want. There to be that element of that and for people to also be able to empathize with the mother, like I didn't want her to be like this antagonist throughout the whole novel, even though a lot of the time she is, but there's a. There's a reason. Mm, yeah.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah. Which we'll not go into right now,

Michelle See-Tho:

I guess. Like, yeah, she, she's a bit more of a nuanced character than just like a outright, strict, mean person. Exactly.

Natasha Rai:

Exactly. So this was the beginning of 2021. So you, we are all just kind outta lockdowns. And you had this idea for this friendship as you said, and you're sort of plotting it rather the story beat. So how long did it take you to have a draft of some kind?

Michelle See-Tho:

In essence, it took about a year, but what happened was I sort of started writing it, you know, following the structure that I'd made for myself. And then I entered it into the Kill Your Darlings Mentors program.

Natasha Rai:

And so can you just, um, explain that, um, for listeners who may not know what that is.

Michelle See-Tho:

The Kill Your Darlings Mentors Program is a program that's run through the literary journal, Kill Your Darlings. Essentially it runs over six months. Uh, you get paired with a mentor who is a successful published author, and over the course of that time, you have a goal of. Producing a manuscript, you write about 10,000 words a month and then submit that to your mentor and then you meet with them and discuss it and you know, you kind of get feedback on what you've written.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah. Sounds great. And it's still going, right? Yeah. What did you have to submit to the program?

Michelle See-Tho:

You had to submit a 10 page sample as well as like a full synopsis of your novel with spoilers and everything. And you also had to sort of give like some information, like your name and your experience, like the type, yeah. Yeah. And you also had to nominate who of the mentors that you wanted to be paired with. And so I chose Melanie Chang.

Natasha Rai:

Okay. And so when you submit your 10 pages in your synopsis, do you have to have a full manuscript written or is that the point that over six months you do it with your mentor, like reading your, yeah. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. So the, the mentor. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you nominated Melanie Ching.

Michelle See-Tho:

Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. She is amazing and she's mentoring again, so, you know, highly recommend to nominate her for anyone who's thinking about doing the program.'cause it is a really amazing experience, you know, if you've got the time and the money as well.'cause it is a little bit expensive. It's a really great thing to do because there aren't that many programs out there for unfinished manuscripts. I felt like there's a lot of prizes, um, and things like that. For when you've finished a manuscript, but it's like getting to that point is so difficult in itself, especially when you've never done it before.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah, exactly. Because the program you're talking about, the KYD mentorship program and probably the Richell prize are the only two that you don't need a full manuscript. Yeah.

Michelle See-Tho:

Well, maybe the Wheeler Center next chapter as well. I'm not, oh, maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's not that many. Yeah, it's true.

Natasha Rai:

So you submitted into that and then what happened next?

Michelle See-Tho:

Then I got accepted into the program. Oh, yay. Um, which was really exciting. And as well, because like I say, I had had like a few ideas and things like that. I submitted this one and then when I got accepted, I thought of that as being like a kind of sign, like I was like, this novel could be something

Natasha Rai:

for sure. When you win something like that, it just gives you such a boost, doesn't it?

Michelle See-Tho:

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I did the mentorship with Mel and like I said, it was a really great experience. She was. Really kind of caring and attentive to my work. And she would give feedback on sort of the high level things like the plot and characters. But then she'd also give feedback on like the sort of line by line, like my prose dialogue, the, the kind of more specific things that make up a, a novel.

Natasha Rai:

So what do you feel, looking back now, it's been, you know, three, four years, four years even. What did you gain from that in terms of lessons you've learned? Writing generally.

Michelle See-Tho:

One of the main things that I learned was more about kind of line edits was about similes. So I kind of used to just like kind of throw in a simile that I thought like sounded nice or I just thought was like a pretty visual, something like that. But Mel's kind of approach was to think about. What your similarly can say about your character. So Lei Ling, as an example in the novel, the first time that Lei Ling sees Gigi's Chanel bag, she says that the Chanel logo looks like an Algebra X. Yeah. And like for me, that's kind of like revealing that, you know, Lei Ling's experience is largely academic. You know, she spends a lot of time at school and then at Kumon. Exactly. So like the way that she sees the world is through that lens.

Natasha Rai:

Actually, yeah, that's true. Now that you say that, I can't remember off the top of my head, but it's actually really bringing to the front of my mind, like a lot of her observations on objects and other like, you know, even that, um, the other mean girl at school whose name has totally escaped my mind.

Michelle See-Tho:

Angela.

Natasha Rai:

Angela, that's it. Even when she notices things like her, like all the objects she can place at the similes are things from her own world. Yeah, so, sorry. That was, that was really vague. I'm sure when people read it, they'll understand what I'm talking about.

Michelle See-Tho:

Yeah, no, I mean,'cause even I myself, like looking back, I was, I was just then trying to think about which ones I'd use. But you know, or just in general, like, you know, to say something is like. Is pink like roses versus it's pink. Like flesh is like, those are quite different kind of ways of describing something.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah. Because even the smells, like, I think she compares the smells to like things she s smelled in her own apartment and on her mum and, and even the shampoo, sorry, I won't bo everyone like going through every single simile, but that's a really, actually, that's a really good tip. I really like that. So by the end of your mentorship, did you have a draft or a full manuscript written?

Michelle See-Tho:

I did. I wasn't that happy with it. Okay. I was kind of like, oh, you know, I'm like, I wanna spend like another like year kind of going through it. But Mel said, she was like, you're ready. Just go submit to places.'cause like you never know kind of what's gonna happen. And she kind of felt as well like. I think maybe by the end of the mentorship she'd gotten to know me quite well and she was like, you can't just like tinker away at it forever. Which is honestly the kind of thing that I would do.

Natasha Rai:

And it's so easy to do.'cause you can always find something to fix. Right?

Michelle See-Tho:

You absolutely can. Yeah. And she said herself that these prizes aren't looking for. Uh, ready to publish piece. They're just looking for your potential. And so I got to submitting, I think I submitted to like six or seven unpublished prizes. Mm-hmm. And got rejected by all of them. So then when I submitted to the Penguin Literary Prize, I literally thought to myself, oh, this is just another prize that's gonna reject me.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah. Also, just like you did for the KYD mentorships, can you just explain what the prize is and what the, what you win?

Michelle See-Tho:

So the Penguin literary prize is a book deal. You get a$20,000 advance as well as the opportunity to publish with Penguin Random House. And so yeah, it's everything that kind of goes along with that. Like yeah, the A major price. Yeah, yeah. The editing process, the publicity as well.

Natasha Rai:

And so under the prize, do they give you a time limit? So like when you enter it, do they, does the terms and conditions say how soon afterwards they might publish your book? Because

Michelle See-Tho:

I do think it depends on the book itself. Yeah. So when I won, my publisher said that she felt that it was quite close to being ready and she felt that the edits would only take a year. That was a shock to me because yeah, like I said, I, I was gonna say, you said you weren't happy. Yeah. And we did end up meeting that one year deadline with like, a few things changed, which, okay. So now, we'll later. Yeah. Yeah.

Natasha Rai:

So, so you submitted this in 2022, right? Because if it won the 2023

Michelle See-Tho:

Yes, that's right. Yeah, yeah,

Natasha Rai:

Yeah. I, and like, yeah, I know. I'm, I'm trying to work this out with you, so. Like most competitions, is it the full manuscript and a synopsis and a bio? Right?

Michelle See-Tho:

So it's, yeah, the full manuscript bio, like a full sort of one page synopsis and then also like a two to three sentence sort of plot description, hence the elevator pitch that I said. Oh yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So you submit and you're like, well, probably nothing will happen. Mm-hmm. And um, so.

Natasha Rai:

What happened? So is there a shortlist or how did some Yeah. Okay.

Michelle See-Tho:

Yeah, so they notified me that I was on the shortlist in March, I think, of

Natasha Rai:

how, how did you find out?

Michelle See-Tho:

Email. Meredith emailed all of us and, and yeah, said, uh, congratulations, you're on the short list, which was. So like, it, it was so wild because I guess like, you know, you get emails all the time from like Myer or like Bonds and stuff, and I'm so used to kind of being all like, like, oh yeah, that's, that's nothing. And, and you know, it was just like another email, but it was like, they like the, I know. Yeah.

Natasha Rai:

Do you remember how you felt when you read that, that you were made the short list?

Michelle See-Tho:

I mean, like, I, it was like. So surreal, I think.'cause like I just, I just didn't expect anything at all to come out of this prize. And, and I do remember I was standing in my kitchen and just like, looking at my phone and I sort of like doubled over overall because I, I was so shocked. Yeah. Um, yeah. But a bit, I mean, obviously yeah, a great, a great feeling as well. Is it, it did also come with a sort of sense that I was like. Has there been a mistake?

Natasha Rai:

Oh yes. The usual imposter syndrome. Yeah. So do you remember, or do you know how many titles were shortlisted alongside you?

Michelle See-Tho:

Yes, there were six people and all of their novels did sound really good as well. Yeah, I'd be keen to know whether or not their novels kind of published or anything. Kinda happened with them afterwards,

Natasha Rai:

so. So you said that that the shortlist was March? Mm-hmm. 2023. And then how long did you have to wait for them to announce the winner?

Michelle See-Tho:

I think it was like two months, but I went on holiday in between like, like not intentionally to not hear about the Oh yeah. Winter or whatever. Yeah, sure. Yeah. It was like, happened to be that I already had a holiday booked and so I went away and I wasn't really thinking about it. And then when I came back, you know, it was like another month or so, yeah, they notified me that I had won in May, I think of 2023.

Natasha Rai:

And, and how, what was that notification?

Michelle See-Tho:

Yeah, that that was an interesting story. Yeah, because I'm a freelancer in advertising is my sort of day job. Yeah. And I was at an ad agency that required me to be in the office. I was in a meeting and I got an email from Meredith that said, Michelle, I have some news for you. Can you call me?

Natasha Rai:

Oh, oh my God.

Michelle See-Tho:

It was really vague,

Natasha Rai:

but what, what did you think? Like, what did you think it meant? Do you remember?

Michelle See-Tho:

I remember thinking like, I have no idea what this means. Like it could be anything. And,'cause I was in a meeting when it happened, I was like. Is when is this meeting gonna end? Sort of fidgety for like, you know, the rest of the 45 minutes or whatever. And so when it did end, finally I went outside and I was like standing in this alleyway and there was lots of construction around. And so, you know, I called her and I was like, oh God, am I gonna be able to hear this? I did hear it and she said, oh, you know, I wanted to tell you that you've won.

Natasha Rai:

Oh, what a moment.

Michelle See-Tho:

It was really crazy. Like I, yeah, I like, I get asthma and I kind of felt like I couldn't breathe for a second and I was like, it's just, I don't know what I was expecting. It was very like, this really could be anything. It could be like, oh, you know, we made a mistake. You're not on the short list anymore. Oh. Like all the way to like, yeah, you've won. And I just didn't know like. Yeah, what it could have been and yeah, so it was, yeah, it was really incredible.

Natasha Rai:

I've not done the same. I haven't won any prizes. But that idea of they've made a mistake, they're gonna take this away. Yeah, that really, that really resonates with me. I'm like, oh yeah, that's a ho, horribly familiar feeling. Yeah.

Michelle See-Tho:

Yeah. And I've learned that that's very common too. A lot of you work so hard on it, and then you get the rejections and you hear so many stories of rejections that you kind of think like, oh, you know, it's gonna be like. Years until anything happens. So yeah, it was, it was crazy.

Natasha Rai:

But did you like, I don't know, did you even work the rest of the day? How did, could you concentrate? Oh

Michelle See-Tho:

gosh, yeah. Then I had to go back in and, and yeah. Yeah. Meet a deadline and, um, so yeah, I was under embargo, so they were like, oh, you know, you can't yeah. Tell people like, you know, apart from your partner and your friends yeah. Sort of thing. Yeah. So, yeah, I just kind of had to like. Pretend that everything was normal and just work for the rest of the day. Oh God. Yeah, so, so what was it in the afternoon? Sorry, go on. Oh, it was in the afternoon, so it wasn't too long of a day.

Emma Babbington:

Hi, listeners of the Book Deal podcast. My name's Emma Babington and I'm part of the 2025 debut crew, an author of the Neighbors, which came out in July through hq, part of Harper Collins. My novel is part psychological thriller, part family mystery, and the jumping off point for writing. It was wondering just how far a person would go to protect their loved one, even if they suspected that person were caught up in something terrible. It begins with a suspicious death of a man called Dr. Richard Wellington at his local park while he's out running, and his neighbor, Liv, soon discovers her teenage daughter, Gracie, was there at the time, and quickly gets the sense that something's not quite right, and she wonders if Gracie perhaps saw something or was involved in some way. For a number of reasons. Liv decides to do all, she can't shield her daughter from the police investigation and then sets off on her own quest to find out who the murderer could be. All the while having this creeping dread that Gracie might've done the unthinkable and killed their neighbor, and there are a lot of suspects because it turns out Richard was not a good guy. The neighbors are set in the Harborside Sydney suburb at the height of a scorching summer and asks if we can ever really know or trust the people next door. There are lots of twists and turns, and while it's a murder mystery, I hope readers enjoy what is above all else, a celebration of female friendship and strength. Thanks so much to Natasha, Madeline, and Tina for letting me come and talk about the neighbors, which is available now.

Natasha Rai:

So what was the timing between you finding out and then the announcement?

Michelle See-Tho:

Yeah, it wasn't too long. I think it was only like two weeks or less.

Natasha Rai:

Okay. Oh, that's good. You don't have to hold it for too long.

Michelle See-Tho:

Yeah. Yeah. And in between, like I, I got to go to the Penguin office and, uh, you know, meet with some publishers and editors and the marketing team and, and, uh, and they gave me my trophy and lots of books.

Natasha Rai:

Oh my God. There's a trophy.

Michelle See-Tho:

Yeah. It's actually, well, well, obviously not from the podcast, but, um, oh, it's a, it's a penguin. Of course. It's, yeah.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah. Gosh. And, and you got free books. Did you say?

Michelle See-Tho:

Uh, yeah, they gave me a bunch of Penguin titles, so the previous year's winners and just like a few other ones that were sort of popular at that time. And it was very nice. It, yeah, it felt, um, very special.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah. I mean, it's a huge achievement. It's, you know, well done. Um, so after the announcement mm-hmm. What happens or what happened next?

Michelle See-Tho:

Yeah, so I think it was maybe a month later we sort of started on structural edits. So should I sort of explain how structural, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I didn't know anything about the editing process, but I learned along the way that you sort of go through like structural edits, which are usually moving around like chapters and then checking things like passage of time.

Natasha Rai:

And can I ask you a question about that? Yeah. Had you and Meredith had a conversation before? The prize was announced at any point about what structural edits might be required if you won, or was that all done after you won it?

Michelle See-Tho:

So on the phone, when she told me that I'd won, we did kind of very roughly talk about a couple of little things. So it was things like Lei Ling's age. So initially when I wrote it, I wrote her as 10 years old. But, um, Meredith sort of said like she, you know, the way she talks and the things that she's doing sort of sound like a few years older. So that was kind of a big change. And then like, there were other questions like, oh, how, like, how talented is she at violin? Because I guess it wasn't clear in those earlier drafts. Whereas I, I hope it's a bit clearer in it's, yeah, she's not very good. Yes, she's not. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But she kind of thinks that she is. Yeah.

Natasha Rai:

I mean, it's a very, it's again, very childlike. Mm-hmm. Like that wishful thinking of, well, I am good. Yeah,

Michelle See-Tho:

yeah. Yeah. So those were the kind of main, and it's like structurally it's very linear, so we actually didn't really have to move too much around. Those were the things that she kind of told me on the phone, and then later on we kind of talked a little more detail about, yeah, yeah. More specific things.

Natasha Rai:

So you, before you started the structural story, you had to sign a contract with them? Yes, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. And did you have an agent, or did you have any support in terms of helping you, you know, not that you can't understand a contract, but just, yeah, making sure that you're signing up to things that you could deliver, et cetera.

Michelle See-Tho:

I did not have an agent. No.

Natasha Rai:

Cool. So you signed this contract about a month after the announcement. She gets in touch and you start doing a structural edit. Yeah. So did she send you. That first contact you had with her. I'm just getting very specific'cause um, it's just really interesting to see what happens behind the scenes. Mm-hmm. After, you know, um, a winner's announced. So did Meredith kind of say, okay, I'm gonna send you over my edits? Or was the first contact you had with her was, Hey, here are your edits and you have this much time to get them back to me.

Michelle See-Tho:

No, no, no. It was more the first one. Yeah. That she kind of like pro me a little bit in advance that, uh, this will happen and, and these are the kind of the timings.

Natasha Rai:

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and as part of the timings conversation mm-hmm. Did you find out at that point the kind of projected publication date for Jade and Emerald?

Michelle See-Tho:

Yeah, and like, I think because she felt that it was so, like structurally sound. She thought that we didn't have to go through too many rounds of edits. Mm. And she said, yeah, it will be like a little over a year.'cause at that time, I think it was, yeah, it was June, yeah. When they announced it. And then the publication date was July of 2024.

Natasha Rai:

Oh yeah. Okay. Hmm. Okay. So do you remember how long it took to get through structural edits?

Michelle See-Tho:

Well, you know, I, it's funny'cause um, in preparing for this podcast, I kind of went back and sort of like traced through my emails just to get a sense of how long things took. So it's, it's a little fresher in my mind than it normally is. So, structural edits were about two months.

Natasha Rai:

That's really fast.

Michelle See-Tho:

Yeah. Well, I expected it to be longer, but, um, yeah, it was, um, it was just sort of one round of it. And most of the. Like I said, yeah, the edits were about like her age and then the sort of passage of time, so making sure that like, you know, I count of things like school holidays and then the season's changing so you know that, you know, it gets colder when it's winter. That sort of thing.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah. Yeah. And so once you submitted your edits mm-hmm. Was there then a bit of time when the editors went over it? Yeah. Yeah. How, what was that like? Yeah.

Michelle See-Tho:

Yeah. So I think like they did kind of like warn me that it would be sort of like the work would be with me for a while and then I'd send it back to them, and then I wouldn't hear anything for a while because they'd be kind of working on it. Mm-hmm. And then it would come back to me and that would be the sort of like essentially the, the process. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so I think it was like another month or so that it was like kind of quiet and I didn't really, sorry, I'm just calculating it. Yeah, that's okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so, okay. So I did the two months of structural edits and then sent it back to them, and then they had it for two months before it came back to me. Yeah. Okay. Uh, with line edits. Yeah.

Natasha Rai:

So by October, November you were doing line edits?

Michelle See-Tho:

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But the line edits did go on for, that was probably like the longest sort of stint of edits that I did. So that lasted until January. So what happened was, obviously we had the Christmas break then, and then I got COVID. Oh. So I kind of had to extend my deadline a little bit. But they had left like some leeway in their schedule. So ultimately the launch date didn't change. So that was nice. So line edits were very close prose reading, checking things like dialogue as well. And then I had the opportunity to kind of add in more lovely poetic prose pieces, which I really enjoyed.

Natasha Rai:

Nice. Yeah.

Michelle See-Tho:

And then around that time we also kind of talked about covers. Um, and I had like a sort of first pass of covers.

Natasha Rai:

So when you say first pass, how much kind of involvement or what did you. How did they do that with you?

Michelle See-Tho:

I'm told that a lot of authors aren't super involved in their covers, but going into it, at that time, I didn't know how little involvement there would be. So I kind of received a few options for covers, and if I can be honest, I, I wasn't really that happy with them, I guess, like I had just had like a thought in mind about like covers that I liked. I didn't necessarily feel that the ones I'd gotten were reflective of like what I wanted it to be. And so I feel very lucky because the, the team at Penguin really did kind of want to go back and forth with me on it. And so yeah, they did kind of let me have a bit of input and I could send over some references and things like that of covers that I did like and that I kind of wanted. Like this sort of thing. Yeah. Um, and so, and so we landed on the cover that we have, which I really love. Yeah. It's both of em. Um, yeah. Yeah. But, um, yeah, there was like a little bit of back and forth. Yeah.

Natasha Rai:

So at what point, so we're into 2024 now, so at what point did. You kind of get told, all right, we're done now proofread. It's about to go to print. Do you remember?

Michelle See-Tho:

So I think that happened around April May. So in between like the line edits and that, like we had a sort of first pages, which is like, they essentially like print it. Like, and it's kind of like in PDF form, but it looks like what it would look like in a book. Oh yeah. And so you get like another chance to kind of read it and it, and like you notice things that you don't notice when it's in a Word document. Things like. Sort of stick out to you differently when they're in that form. I don't know why.

Natasha Rai:

I think it's because they type set it, don't they? And you can see gaps and weird words and Yeah, I dunno. It just looks different somehow.

Michelle See-Tho:

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And then they printed the arcs, advanced review copies. Yes. Yeah. And so got to hold. That was very cool. Although I was a bit nervous when they did that.'cause I like, like I was saying before, I'm very like, you know, I probably would never have let it go. So when they said, oh, you know, we're printing this. I was like, printing, no, no, no, I'm not ready. And then they were like, oh, you know, it's so that you can get like the quotes on the cover. Oh yeah. The cover quotes. Yeah. Yeah. And then, yeah, obviously to get reviews as well. And so. Yeah, we did another round of edits and then the proofread and Yeah, and then it went to print in, yeah, April, may.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah. So under like the prize terms, did you know, or did they kind of explain what your commitments were around publicity or?

Michelle See-Tho:

Yeah, I think it was like, it said something like, oh, you know, uh, a total of two weeks of publicity, but it's not like two weeks kind of blocked out at one time. It's sort of like spread over, you know, a few months.

Natasha Rai:

And so what types of things did you do at that time when, when your book was out?

Michelle See-Tho:

Well, the launch is probably the most, like the sort of centerpiece Yes. Of it all. Yeah. And like that's an event that we held our readings in Melbourne and Melanie Chang hosted the launch. Beautiful. Yes. Yeah. And so we kind of had like a q and a and you know, I got dressed up and invited all my friends.

Natasha Rai:

How was that for you? Like, did you have a good time? Were you nervous? Were you excited? All of it?

Michelle See-Tho:

Yeah. Yeah. Um, it went by very quickly. Yeah. I was kind of nervous about it.'cause as I'm sure a lot of other writers are, like, I'm an introvert and, you know, I had been sitting by myself essentially and like writing this for, you know, so long that suddenly it was in the world and I had to talk about it. And that felt really weird. Like, you know, um, kind of like having a lot of people look at me and ask questions about it Yeah. Is like quite different to what I'm used to. Um,

Natasha Rai:

and it's, and it's on the page, but it's no longer just a file on your laptop or

Michelle See-Tho:

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Attachments on emails between you and your publisher. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it has been like, great in its own way, seeing it out in the world and like, you know, hearing people like yourself kind of, you know, read it and have such nice things to say about it. It's really. Yeah, it's really rewarding.

Natasha Rai:

Oh, that's really beautiful. So did they organize like a tour for you or was the launch kind of the main event and then you did things around Melbourne?

Michelle See-Tho:

I did a couple of different, like events and interviews and things. So yeah, like I said, the launch was the main one, but I did also have podcasts and radio interviews and some print as well. And then I went to Geelong for like a, a sort of little bookshop crawl. I went to a few different bookshops and like did signings and met with people and stuff. And then I went to Sydney and I did a few events at like libraries and bookshops there as well.

Natasha Rai:

And, and that was all organized by Penguin and like their publicists, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle See-Tho:

So they were quite good at kind of reaching out to different places and organizing things. Pretty much everything was organized through Penguin.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah. And um, you know, so I don't know like, but. Penguin has the same, but you know, some prizes, the winner sometimes has to do like some media content or write something about what it means to win the prize, et cetera. Did you have any kind of obligation like that?

Michelle See-Tho:

No. Kind of huge commitment. I did write like a few statements for like the press release and for the website. And for things like when they opened the prize for the next year, talking about like how great it was to win it and like why people should enter it, that sort of thing.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah. And, and in your prize deal, does Penguin have an option like to look at your next book

Michelle See-Tho:

or, yeah, it's first option, but it's not like, it's not like a two book deal. Yeah,

Natasha Rai:

yeah, yeah. Um, so for listeners who are not sure what that means, an option is where the publisher basically gets to see a manuscript first and can decide if they want to take it or pass, right?

Michelle See-Tho:

Yes.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah. Yeah. And so during all of that process of editing and then leading up to publication, were you working on something else? Were you kind of just focused on Jade and Emerald? What was that time like for you?

Michelle See-Tho:

I was pretty much just focused on Jade and Emerald, I suppose. Like I shouldn't be surprised, but I was surprised by how much mental energy it took. Like not just the edits themselves, but the publicity was really quite like mentally taxing in its own way. And so like I didn't really have much other space to focus on other things.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah, for sure.'cause of work as well and life generally. Life, yeah. So, so what's life been like for you a year on. What's your writing practice look like? What does Yeah. Book stuff look like?

Michelle See-Tho:

I mean, I've kind of been more doing kind of smaller pieces, so like opinion pieces or like short stories and things like that. I had a piece published on, um, the Griffith Review online not too long ago. And I also regularly write video game reviews, so Nintendo Life. So that's sort of been like my writing kind of space at the mument. And as well, like in my kind of advertising life, I've had like a few kind of extracurricular. Advertising things I've been doing. So yeah, I haven't really kind of started on like a second book.

Natasha Rai:

Mm-hmm. So do you feel any pressure?

Michelle See-Tho:

Only kind of when I get the comparison bug, you know, like sometimes I'll look at like Instagram and see like other authors kind of putting out things and like I'm always excited to read books by authors I love. And so like I do feel like, oh, you know, if people really liked Jade and Emerald, like I'd really love to give them. Something else, you know? Yeah. Um, but at the same time it's like, like I kind of had the opportunity to spend a lot of time on it and put a lot of craft into that number. Like, I'd like to do that with my second as well. You know, you kind of don't necessarily wanna be like pumping them out

Natasha Rai:

for sure. Yeah. So do you feel like you have the, the right head space, right. You know, at the moment or. I don't know, inspiration to get started on something novel length or are you kind of the shorter pieces that you're doing that they're really feeding you for where you are?

Michelle See-Tho:

Yeah, I think I'm pretty good at the moment. Yeah. Like I, I definitely want to write a second book and like I said, I had like kind of other sort of very rough ideas, so it would be probably something that I've already thought of that I just need to work out exactly what that story is.

Natasha Rai:

Sure. So how would you say the prize has kind of impacted you?

Michelle See-Tho:

It was amazing. Uh, I guess like when I started writing Jade and Emerald, or even before it, like I wanted to have a novel out in the world and. The prize. Let me do that. So yeah, I mean, like, it was, yeah, amazing. And, and you know, like, because I had literally kind of gone into it thinking that I wasn't gonna get published at all. It was really amazing that it happened and so quickly and with, you know, such a prestigious publisher. Like it's still, it's still pretty like crazy that it happened even though. You know, I know that it happened. I've got like proof that happened. It still sort of feels a bit surreal.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah, yeah, I get that. So in terms of any tips or advice that you would give to emerging writers now, what would you say?

Michelle See-Tho:

I think never give up is a really important piece of advice. It's a cliche for a reason. I also think that it kind of works in like a few different ways. So obviously, you know, there's the getting published side of it as in like submit to lots of places and don't stop doing that kind of thing. But it's true that there are like so many avenues to publications. So it's like. You know, I don't know if like anybody could ever exhaust every single avenue that there is before they get published, but I sort of think there's like a, like a second level to it where like you never kind of give up on your writing. So if you like, always kind of keep trying to better yourself as a writer or like, you know, read widely. And like even if you're not necessarily working on like a novel like myself, like you know, if you are kind of writing other bits and pieces or even just like journal entries, like I feel like that's like still a form of like not giving up.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah, for sure. And you know, and just a point that you made earlier about after you finished your mentorship and felt the manuscript still wasn't ready for writers who have that same worry that. Is my manuscript ready and I know there's no easy answer'cause it really depends on the writer and the manuscript. What's your advice in terms of how someone could tackle that problem or that issue of is this actually ready to submit somewhere? Like what could they do to check it for themselves if it is or not?

Michelle See-Tho:

I guess if you feel that like that's something that you are proud of and that's something that you're like, you're willing to kind of like put your name to. And say to a publisher, you know, like, yeah, this is mine. Like I wrote this, and you know, and to sort of feel proud of it in that way. I think that's a pretty good test.

Natasha Rai:

That's a great test actually. Yeah. Yeah. I suppose if you're feeling self-conscious or embarrassed by it, then that could speak to that. Maybe it needs a bit more work or something like more time. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great answer. So I just wanted to say thank you so much for coming on my monthly episode and talking to me about Shannon Emerald and your prize winning experience. Congratulations once again. It's such a beautiful book and definitely well deserved winning that prize.

Michelle See-Tho:

Oh, thank you so much. Yeah. Yeah. It's been great chatting to you. Uh, yeah. Yeah. It's a great podcast and I think that like it's always helpful for writers to kind of hear from people who have done it because like that's how we all started out. Exactly. We've all started out submitting somewhere and then some magic happens and you're at the right place at the right time, and.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah, and it just goes from there. So thank you so much for sharing your experience.

Michelle See-Tho:

Oh, thank you for having me.

Tina Strachan:

Thank you for listening to the Book Deal podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the pod so you can receive updates as soon as our new EPS drop and to keep up to date with what the pod is doing. You can also find us on Instagram.