The Book Deal
Motivation and inspiration for emerging writers, helping them pave their own pathway to publishing success.
The Book Deal
Paramedic and writer Sally Gould shares her experiences of writing and editing memoir; how to use feedback and giving yourself time to make your work the best version of itself
In this episode, host Natasha Rai sits down with paramedic and debut author Sally Gould to discuss her memoir, "Frog." Sally shares her journey from keeping clinical journals as a student to transforming her experiences into a compelling narrative. The conversation explores the challenges of writing memoir, the process of seeking feedback, navigating the publishing world, and the emotional impact of sharing personal stories. Sally offers candid insights into the realities of paramedic life, the importance of time in the creative process, and advice for aspiring writers.
00:00 – Introduction
Natasha introduces the Book Deal Podcast and previews the episode’s focus on debut and seasoned authors.
00:27 – Acknowledgement of Country
Madeleine Cleary delivers the land and waters acknowledgment.
00:40 – Meet Sally Gould
Natasha introduces Sally, her background as a paramedic, and the inspiration behind "Frog."
01:29 – Sally’s Elevator Pitch
Sally describes her memoir and its focus on personal and professional growth.
02:37 – The Origins of "Frog"
Sally discusses her early journals, the transition from private reflection to public story, and the initial audience she imagined.
05:46 – Turning Journals into a Book
Sally explains her self-directed learning process, editing, and the challenges of writing as a novice.
09:07 – Feedback and Growth
Sally shares her experiences with feedback from family, manuscript assessments, and professional editors, and how she learned to process and use criticism constructively.
13:17 – The Publishing Journey
Sally details her approach to competitions, mentorship, and ultimately securing an agent and publishing deal.
18:45 – Editing, Publication, and Self-Care
Sally reflects on the final editing rounds, the emotional impact of publication, and strategies for handling negative feedback.
24:03 – Life After Publication
Sally talks about her current writing practice, balancing work and family, and the challenges of starting new projects.
27:42 – Community Response and Advice for Writers
Sally discusses feedback from colleagues and readers, the importance of visibility, and offers tips for aspiring memoirists and those seeking traditional publication.
31:38 – Closing Thoughts & Intention Setting
Natasha wraps up with refle
Join our Patreon community for less than the cost of a coffee per month and support the pod! Your contribution will go to directly paying our sound producer, Brogan, and to help us bring you the conversations with industry professionals you love.
Follow The Book Deal podcast on Instagram The Book Deal podcast (@the_book_deal_podcast) • Instagram photos and videos
You can find out more about Tina, Madeleine and Natasha and follow their journeys here:
Tina Strachan (@td_strachan) • Instagram photos and videos
Tina Strachan children's book author
Madeleine Cleary (@madeleineclearywrites) • Instagram photos and videos
Madeleine Cleary | Author
Natasha Rai (@raiwriting) • Instagram photos and videos
Natasha Rai | Author | Mentor
If you want to stay in the know, sign up to Madeleine, Tina and Natasha's newsletters for the latest news first.
Madeleine: Subscribe here...
This is the Book Deal Podcast, monthly takeover by your host, Natasha Rai. I'll be bringing you even more debut and season authors as they talk about their path to publication.
Madeleine Cleary:The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
Natasha Rai:sally Gould has been a paramedic for 14 years and counting and still finds joy in her self-proclaimed dream job. The professional and personal growth she experienced on the frontline and the journals she kept during her early years in the field were the inspiration for her memoir Frog. Her draft manuscript won the narrative nonfiction category in the 2023 A SA ca Award mentorship program. When she's not in uniform, Sally can be found tutoring, paramedic students, or immersed in her writing. She spends the rest of her days off nurturing herself through running bush, walking, baking, attending the theater, and spending time with family and friends. Sally lives in Sydney with her husband and their two children. Hello, Sally Gould. Welcome to the Book Deal podcast. Good morning, Natasha. How are you? Yeah, I'm well, thanks. How are you? Oh, I'm fine, thank you. Um, thanks for joining me today. Uh, just wanted to talk to you about your memoir, frog. Yes. And maybe some publication journey stuff and, you know, just a bunch of other things that I think are very interesting. Mm-hmm. Sounds good. So how do you feel about, uh, giving me your elevator pitch for Frog? It's
Sally Gould:not my favorite thing to do. Um, I should have been prepared for this one, but I'm not. Um, frog is my story from when I started as a university ride-along paramedic student up until when I become an intensive care paramedic. So I think it's told through the lens of all the patients that I see, well, a bunch of the patients that I see over that time period, but it's much more about my growth as a clinician and as a person throughout that time period.
Natasha Rai:That was
Sally Gould:pretty good. Yes. Nailed it. We're off to a good start.
Natasha Rai:Um, look, I've read it and I absolutely loved it as you know,'cause I was messaging you the whole time I was reading it. Um, I just think it's amazing because it helped me really get an insight into what a typical shift might look like or even a non-typical shift and just the pressures that you are under when you're working in that very high stress situation. So. I loved reading it to just get that insight. Parts of it were really hard to read, I'll be honest, um, because of the case studies that you include. But again, it's all that unique kind of perspective into your world, I guess, your working world.
Sally Gould:Yeah, I think that was one of the goals when writing the book is I've really enjoyed opening the doors, so to speak, on the ambulance and showing people my version of what it's really like. Yeah. Not the glossy TV version, but you know, really put the reader inside my head.
Natasha Rai:And you did. So thank you for that. Now, I've heard you speak about your book, and I know that you, it came out of a diary that you kept for many years. Is diary the right word?
Sally Gould:Yeah, when? When I started as a university student, we had to keep a clinical log of all the patients that we saw just to tick off that component of the place. But I felt like that was so objective and it wasn't covering near enough of the experience, and I wanted to capture everything. Maybe that's the writer in me. I wanted to capture the way the paramedics walked and the how they carried their gear and what they spoke about between jobs and the way they joked and their dark humor. And so I kept my own journal or diary, um, of my time in that initial placement. Um, just trying to capture all the weird and wonderful things I was seeing.
Natasha Rai:Mm-hmm. At what point did you start to look at your, kind of, your entries and reflect on it and feel that maybe you would like to have them published?
Sally Gould:Uh, it took a long time. Mm-hmm. It was certainly never the intention with the original journal. Um, and nor was it with over the following years, I wasn't intending to turn it into a book. It was purely for my own reflection, I guess, to capture that time, to capture my growth, to be able to reflect on it, um, to learn from it. But yeah, it took years until I started to sort of see a story emerging from what I'd been through to think, ah, maybe someone else might be interested in this. But it certainly wasn't the intention from the start.
Natasha Rai:And that, that time when you started to think about someone else might be interested, were you kind of thinking about like other paramedics or people generally?
Sally Gould:I was certainly, it was limited. I thought my colleagues would probably really like this'cause I thought they could relate to it. They'd see themselves in it. And that's kind of where my imagination stopped at that point, just thinking, oh, my colleagues would probably enjoy this. And then I allowed myself to dream a bit and I thought, oh, maybe like other emergency services and frontline workers. And I thought, oh, well maybe their friends and family might enjoy, um, the insight. And it wasn't until I sort of got in contact with people within the industry that they said, oh no, no, there's a much bigger audience for this that I really allowed myself to realize that.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. Oh wow. So then what was your kind of next steps from that, those kind of conversations? How did you begin to go into that publishing journey?
Sally Gould:I think from the start I just wanted to turn the book into a fully fleshed out book, and that was just a dream I had for myself and just a goal I set for myself. It certainly wasn't, um, a publication dream from the start. It was just, I've got all these. Anecdotes, these stories, these memories that I've captured. I wanna write about it, I wanna flesh it out. I wanna turn it into some sort of, um, whole story with narrative arc and character development. And I am the character and I just enjoyed setting myself that challenge. And so it wasn't, I'm gonna get this published. It was mm-hmm. I'd just like to see. A hobby space where fleshing all of this out and learning the craft of writing a bit as I go, um, where that gets me, that was the very start, was just this strange dream that all my friends thought I was a bit crazy for thinking I was just gonna write a book. They're like, why, why would you write a book? I was like, well, why not learn something new?
Natasha Rai:So how did you figure out how to do all of that? Like, you know, the character arcs the narrative arc.
Sally Gould:Uh, I did a lot of just self-directed learning. So like deep dives, online courses, reading, I mean the internet's as long as you can filter correctly as a whole host of good information. And I just really, um, focused on one element at a time.'cause I found it so overwhelming trying to learn something new. I was very expert as a paramedic and incredibly novice as a writer and I still feel that way. Um, but. I just did one thing at a time, so perhaps my focus might be on, um, dialogue. And so, you know, for a number of weeks I do this deep dive on how to write dialogue and how to capture people's voices and how much is too much and where it needs to go and what the purpose of it is. And then I'd do a full edit of the manuscript just based on that lesson I'd learned, and then I'd go on to the next one.
Natasha Rai:Oh wow. I mean, that sounds both thorough and sort of painful.
Sally Gould:Oh yes. Oh yes. I don't think I did it the easy way. I think I just. In and then was like, oh, I probably need to actually learn some technique to this. And then was sort of trying to back lay all of the learning I was doing onto the manuscript that I had. So it wasn't easy. And it wasn't smooth and it took maybe longer than it should have. But I enjoyed the process, I enjoyed the challenge. Um, and I also enjoyed being able to see the manuscript get better. Mm-hmm. Uh, every time I made these changes and. I guess that was the start of it, starting to be transformed into something that was accessible for a reader, not just something that I was doing for myself.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. And all the kind of research that you did and the learning, are there any courses or um, websites that you remember that were particularly helpful that you wanted to share? Now you don't have to. That's a putting you on the spot question.
Sally Gould:No, that's all right. I found this lady, um, Wendy, who did a course on me, memoir writing, uh, for geniuses. I found a few of her resources quite useful. Um, I also lent on the Australian Society of Authors. Um, I signed up to all of that and did a deep dive of all their stuff, which was super helpful. And the Australian Writers Center as well had some courses, so just like local, um, accessible, some free, some paid. Um. But yeah, quite accessible from my lounge at home where I was doing my hobby writing. Nice. And so
Natasha Rai:do you remember like kind of what length of time you took to do this kind of, kind of element by element? Um, manuscript, structural rewrite edit?
Sally Gould:Um, I'd say probably the most part of a year. So I spent a year, the problem was I hadn't learned that you're supposed to sort of, well they say get it all out and then do an edit. I was doing a whole lot of editing as I went because the perfectionist in me is like, you can't leave something messy. So I hated moving on to something until I'd tidied. Um, if I did it all again, I'd probably do a bit more of a dump and then fine tune from there.
Natasha Rai:Mm-hmm.
Sally Gould:So I was doing a bit of an edit as I wrote, and so that's why it probably took me over a year to write the initial manuscript and then another year to do all of this fine tuning before I felt. I was ready to let anyone else sort of see it. Yeah.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. And that also is a very much kind of emerging writer, debut writer process as well. Like especially'cause so many of us write in the dark or in secret. Yes. Or we treat it like a hobby and we don't think it's can be anything serious. So we do, we are very like take great pains to make sure it's perfect, whatever that is for us. Right? Mm-hmm. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. So at the end of the two years, um, what did you have in terms of your manuscript?
Sally Gould:I had a full manuscript, uh, full length complete manuscript that had only been looked over by me. So it was very much full length and fully fleshed out. And as far as I could get it personally, yeah. Um, I'd like trolled over it. Multiple edits, multiple read throughs. Tried to do some more learning, tweaking, and I just was at the point I, I had it, it was full, but I couldn't see it anymore. If that makes sense. Yeah, it does
Natasha Rai:make total sense. And, you know, um, I talked to other writers about this idea of the character arc, and I know you just said earlier that you were the character, so to speak. So with your arc, without giving too much away, there is a strong mental health component and a sense of, um, I don't know what the right word is, like a sense of. Coming into yourself and your identity as a paramedic. Like, I'm not saying that happened. I'm trying not to give anything away. I'm saying that there was the definite search for that. Were you consciously aware of that type of, um, arc for this for, for yourself as you were looking at your case histories? Or did that emerge kind of in the process?
Sally Gould:Interesting question'cause I started writing the book a lot earlier than the recent go I had at it. So maybe 10 years ago now. I started writing and this, the stuff that happened in the book hadn't really happened yet. Um, and so it would've been a very different book. I ended up losing 20,000 words, um,'cause I didn't save it. Oh my gosh. And the computer just died and took that. Um, so I had a bit of a break and I think in that time. Like a little bit more life happened. Mm-hmm. And that's where, yeah, I, I toyed with the ending,'cause I wrote the book chronologically.'cause that's how I had the diaries and journals that I was turning into this story. And I almost, I toyed with the idea of, of just not including that as an element for a while. Mm-hmm. Just thinking. Is it too much or was it too close to the end? And all these sorts of things. And then I had a look down sort of hero's journey and all that type stuff and thought, oh, this is just made for this. So yeah, it, it kind of fell into place itself. It wasn't forced, um, it wasn't, the timeline wasn't played with, it was just what, the way I cropped the end of the book, um, made it sit in the structure that it currently is at. Yeah.
Natasha Rai:Okay. So very much time and. Life have shaped it in a lot of ways, just like you would if you're running fiction, if you left it alone for a few years and you come back to it with fresh eyes. So I, I'm trying to make a tip out of something that you've said, which is if you give something time, you can really see the potential of growth in it or changes, right? Yeah. Yeah.
Sally Gould:And I think if, if I noticed a lot of times I was trying to push something or trying to make something fit. And it didn't. And I think the more space I gave it, it sorted itself out, you know, in a weird way.
Natasha Rai:Mm-hmm.
Sally Gould:Yeah.
Natasha Rai:So once you couldn't see it anymore, as you say, um, who did you show it to?
Sally Gould:The very first person was actually my sister. And they say, uh, don't show it to people, you know,'cause they'll just say, oh, this is amazing. Um, but I've got a very unique sister in that she's incredibly frank and honest, and I love her dearly for that. Um, she's widely read. She's not a paramedic, but she's my sister. And I just said to her like, I know you'll tell me if this is absolute garbage. Um, that's what I want. And she knows there is no sugarcoating in my family. There's no niceties, there's no softening hard messages. It's just the truth. Um, so I felt very comfortable showing her, knowing that she was gonna tell me the truth, uh, which she did. Um, and one of her first bits of feedback was, um, you sound like a psychopath.
Natasha Rai:Oh my God. Okay.
Sally Gould:And in, in that, I'd taken these. Journals and I'd let people into my head and I'd done nothing to ease the reader, the non paramedic reader, into this horrific world that I'd just led them into. Yeah. So none of the, none of the closure on the patient cases, none of the easing them into an outcome because I'm like, well, no, they died. She's like, yeah, but the reader thought they had a chance. You need to let them down gently here. I was like, oh, okay. Sorry. Didn't even think of that. Um, so very useful feedback. Very honest feedback. But also kind of gave me a bit of confidence to think, oh, okay. She didn't think it was trash and I know she'd tell me if she was like, this is not worth pursuing. Yeah. So she was the very first person.
Natasha Rai:Okay, great. So you took the arm psychopath, um, feedback and I worked with it. So you did, so you, you changed elements at that point?
Sally Gould:Yeah. It was still an early draft and she was still very much doing, um. Like wide brush stroke feedback. It wasn't anything fine tuning. I just said to her the general I was after like pacing and what stories are working and what aren't and that type of thing. Um, and yeah, she gave me that feedback.
Natasha Rai:Mm-hmm. And
Sally Gould:yeah, it gave me the confidence.'cause the next person I actually got a manuscript assessment done. Um, I'm pretty sure it was through the Australian Society of Authors and that's a paid, um mm-hmm. Service. And they looked it. Maybe it was the first chapter. I just remember it being a really short piece and just being like, is that enough? Is that enough for them to to know? And that was the first time I'd got professional feedback and I found that very difficult. Yeah.
Natasha Rai:Oh, okay. What was difficult about it?
Sally Gould:Um, it was difficult because I. Because it's my life. Like it's memoir. It's not something I've made up. It's not something I've dreamt of. It's, it's my life. And when someone criticizes that, and the way you've written about it or the way even feels like an attack on the way you responded to something in life or the way you felt about something, which is not, it's totally not, but it felt a little bit like an attack. And maybe I wasn't ready for that. And I, I went through this distinct process of like that denial of like, no. They're wrong. They don't know what they're talking about. That's not the right feedback. They've misunderstood where I was coming from, you know, getting very defensive about it, and then I'd sort of sit with it for a bit and then I'd come to this realization of like as I processed it, ah, okay, it makes a bit more sense. Maybe they know what they're talking about. Then I'd turn into like overwhelm of like, oh, I don't even know how to start changing all the things they've suggested and then overcoming that end. Coming out with a better manuscript
Natasha Rai:D did. Looking back and also now that you, you are kind of more accustomed, I guess, to feedback from professionals. Did, did sitting with it, giving it some time kind of help you see that maybe some of it might've been useful or, or that you could use it in some way that felt good or right for your manuscript?
Sally Gould:Yes. Yes. I, I found my natural instinct was to just dismiss it and ignore it, because that felt safest. It was protecting me from hurt and from hard work. And I'd sit with it and I'd normally wrestle with it for, you know, a week, maybe two weeks, and it'd just be on my mind ticking over, you know, expanding it into different areas of the book, seeing what would change if they were actually right. And every time, every time I got feedback, I'd get to the end of it and realize they were right. They knew what they were talking about and the manuscript was better for it. But it was, I've now learned to build in that time because I know I'm gonna have that same response every time. Not as, as, oh for sure. Dramatic and not as, um, difficult a wrestle.'cause I'm more open to it. But now I know. Give yourself the first few days to be angry at whoever gave you the feedback, to be confused, to be in denial. Give yourself however long you need to wrestle with it and whether it's useful, and then trust that you'll actually come out the other end and, and it, you don't have to take on everything. But more often than not, there's some absolute gems in feedback. Yeah.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. And I, it feels like you've kind of given lots of clues in your answer to that. But I was wondering about that, like how you take feedback on when you're writing memoir, because as you said, these are things that have happened in your life and part of your experience. Um, so, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounded like how you do it is you really can pull apart the elements in terms of they're, they're giving you, they're critiquing the style and the way you've positioned the story, not the story itself, right?
Sally Gould:Yes. Yeah. And, and to distance it, it's not, they're not criticizing. My life, the way I responded to things, the way I feel about things, how I process things. They're criticizing the way that it, the effectiveness of that translating to the reader's understanding of it. And there's a massive difference to that.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. And that helps you come back to it with the kind of a different set of eyes that it's, as you said, it's not critical of you as opposed.
Sally Gould:And then to say, well, if it's not coming across the correct way to the reader, thanks for flagging it because this is what I mean, and this is super important. It also strengthens your belief in what you want to stay untouched in the manuscript. I think that's also another thing. There's, I learned as I went that I can take some feedback and some of it I can say no and have a reason for saying no to and'cause I want it to stay true to however I wrote it or whatever happened or whatever it may be. But. I became a bit more decisive about what feedback was useful to me and what wasn't.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. Which is a tough lesson because, you know, especially, um, new or debut writers, you don't, you don't really know like what you can push back on or what you can, whether you have the strength or the courage to go No, because, are you gonna like, make someone angry or, yeah, it's a hard, it's a hard one.
Sally Gould:It is. I had a delightful editor, Meredith Rose, who I worked with through, um, Simon and Schuster. And she is an absolute gun. Um, I've never met anyone that works so efficiently and quickly and accurately. Um, very, very clever woman and also doesn't sugarcoat things. So that worked well for me because she'd just come at me with it. But she made it very clear. She said, you, you can say no. Do any of these suggestions. They are my suggestions. Um, they're coming from me, and you are the author and you know the true story and you don't have to justify it, which. It was so empowering because I'm so glad she said that.'cause otherwise I would've thought, oh, working with my editor, my editor says what happens? And I agree, and they make it a better book. And that's the end of story. But through working with her, I learned, oh no, she's, she's okay. She's not gonna get offended if I say no, it's staying this way. And I, she said, you don't even need to justify just that's the way you want it. You are the author. And unless it's something like grammatically incorrect, she's not, she's gonna be okay with it. Yeah.
Natasha Rai:Which is so amazing because, you know, not all editors are that clear
Sally Gould:in terms
Natasha Rai:of what they expect and what they can do for, for, for a writer. So that's really good.
Sally Gould:Mm. So I feel like I really worked with the editor. I thought that was gonna be more like a one-sided thing, but it was very much a could this work? Could that work? Are you happy with this? Like a back and forth, which was really good.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. Collaborative, right?
Sally Gould:Yeah. Yeah.
Natasha Rai:So at which point Sally did you feel that you were ready to start submitting? Or, or was there, I don't know. Was there even a thought before that, as in, should I submit or do I wanna do this?
Sally Gould:So since I'd put in all the hard work to learn all the things and write this whole manuscript, and my husband had looked at me pouring hours of my life into it, I think we all kind of expected that I was gonna do something with it at this point. And when I. Started to realize, okay, it's not absolute garbage. Um, I'm still feeling passionate about it. I still feel like it's something I want out in the world. I started looking at all the paths thinking, okay, am I gonna self-publish this? Am I gonna look for traditional publishing? Like, how does that even work again, like all sorts of deep dives on the internet to try and figure out like how to publish book in Australia. Mm-hmm. You know, like I was at that level of having yes. No friends that were writers. No one I knew had published a book. I knew no one in the industry, not even related, like all my contacts are medicine based, which is not helpful when you're publishing a book. Um, but then I thought, uh, because I like to set myself a challenge, I was like, well, let's reach for the stars. Let's go for a traditional publishing deal. Um, and then I can always come up with a plan B if I don't get any traction there. And then there was the whole. Do I get an agent? Do I go to publishing houses again, just I felt so blind trying to navigate that industry and that world, not knowing I didn't wanna take a wrong step, that would mean I couldn't progress. You know, as they say, if you approach too many agents and get knocked back, then the publishing houses don't wanna look at you. So there's all these sort of little things you hear along the way and you read online. You think, well, I don't wanna shoot myself in the foot and not be able to. To sort of getting traction with it.
Natasha Rai:And just on that point at that, the, in those times or the, those moments, it really does feel like end of the road stuff. Like, if you do this, you'll ruin your chances forever.
Sally Gould:Yes,
Natasha Rai:yes. And it's not always true.
Sally Gould:No, but
Natasha Rai:I know the feeling. Yeah.
Sally Gould:It, it felt very like, well, don't stuff this up because one, one place I read said, you know, if three agents have said no, no one else is gonna ever wanna look at you. Oh. Which is so
Natasha Rai:not true.
Sally Gould:So I've got three shots and I've never done this before. And that you're out and then that's it. Yeah. So it felt very, um, big at the time and looking back now and knowing a bit more about the industry and as you would know, it's not as black and white as that at all. No. Um, but I'd made the decision to, um, and just some competitions before I leapt into submitting.'cause the submitting part just felt a little bit scary. Yeah. Since I'd hardly had any. Industry experts look over the manuscript. So this was kind of a non-confrontational way for me to sort of exactly edge in and just get some feelers. And I, I really targeted the competitions that offered feedback, like, if you didn't win, you got a bit of feedback as to why. And I was just like, great, like almost free feedback. I get eyes on the manuscript and they'll tell me something, um, that I can do better. So I entered three competitions at the same time, and two of them I didn't. Do you remember what
Natasha Rai:they were?
Sally Gould:Are one was the A-S-A-C-A-E mentorship prize, and I don't actually remember the other two. They're Australian based competition, maybe Orka. Mm-hmm. And I can't remember the third one. So. So from memory, there weren't
Natasha Rai:memoir specific, right? There were a kind of adult manuscripts,
Sally Gould:correct. Yeah,
Natasha Rai:yeah,
Sally Gould:yeah. And that's the other thing, just trying to, um. I'm very meticulous at reading all the instructions, but there's so many, and they really want you to follow those guidelines about what you submit and whether you're eligible and you've done all the components. And I think that's a really important, important part that you can easily make sure you're doing the right steps when you're submitting, because there are some really tight guidelines on some of them. Um, so yeah, I submitted to the three. Um. Around a similar time. Uh, I'd also checked that you could be submitted to each of them while being submitted to others.'cause that's another trick for young players. Yes. Some of them say you can't be submitted to anyone else while you're in this competition. Um, and other things. So I got some feedback, which again, I went through my same process of being like, oh, they dunno what they're talking about. They've only read the first five pages or, you know, whatever. But I ended up actually winning the um. Narrative nonfiction component of the A-S-A-C-A mentorship award prize.
Natasha Rai:Amazing.
Sally Gould:Um, which was exactly what I needed. I didn't know it at the time, but it meant a 12 month mentorship, um, with like a person in the industry. So I worked with a publisher, um, and there was no guarantee for any deals at the end. Mm-hmm. And my particular publisher was from. Um, a publishing house that wouldn't publish my book anyway. Um, but she was sort of, uh, memoir specific. Mm-hmm. And we worked, we didn't even need the whole 12 months. Um, she said my manuscript was, um, super tidy when she first got it, which I was like, yes, all the hard workers paid off and all those ridiculous amounts of edits and rereads and whatnot. So she was really impressed with how tidy it was. She did some really important work with me around, um, the passing of time and anchoring things in time, which is just another lesson I needed to learn. Um, and again, just that accessibility for the reader. We tightened a few things, clarified a few, um, bits of terminology and things just to make it super accessible for everyone. And then we finished up maybe after about eight months and she's just like. I really believe this should be published, that's gonna be published, um, now go kind of, kind of thing. So she also incredible.
Natasha Rai:Um, that must have just really lifted. You like to hear that from a professional to say, this is publishable and it should be published.
Sally Gould:Yeah, I, I, yeah, I probably cried or could have cried or, you know, all those things because it was the first time I'd heard, and maybe the first time I'd believed that, okay, there's something in this. And someone with industry knowledge believes in me as well. So, yeah, so she was sort of like, I can introduce you, like to some agents, if that would kind of help, which was, I think beyond her scope, she was very lovely and helpful. Um, but that kind of led to a few nos, um, from some agents, which I, at this point, it feels like you're burning each chance, every time you're gonna go. Um, but I ended up just having this sort of, uh. I don't know, a gut feel about an agency, um, which is now a four literary. Mm-hmm. And I submitted just in their like general submissions. So no introductions, no head starts, just online portal was open at the time. I read all of the criteria, made sure I submitted exactly it, and then just sat in that waiting of who knows. And, and a lot of them are like, oh, if you don't hear from us in six months, it's a no. You literally like, well I could, I'm gonna wait five exactly six months. And then it's just, and then give up the hope. Yeah. It's just a know if I hear nothing. It's such a difficult process. And when you look at, if you do that each time,'cause you're not submitting to multiple people at once, you think that could be two years, three years, gone. Just submitting, waiting, hearing nothing, letting it lapse, going to the next one. And so I kind of reached that point, just getting a little bit deflated, but I had a bit of hope. I don't know why, but I kind of manifested it. I was talking to a close friend of mine and I said, I've submitted, I've got a good feeling about this one. Um, and then I heard from Tom Gilliat, my now agent, and he just emailed on, I think it was a. Thursday saying, can I have the full manuscript? He said, sorry for the delay. And it had been two weeks. I was like, that's no delay. Like I was in for the long haul here, Tom. So he said, sorry for the delay. Sorry I haven't gotten back to you. Um, I'd love to read the full manuscript. And I thought, okay, this is a good sign. Like it could still be a no from here. But I sent it away that day. Um, and he read it over the weekend and I'd sort of manifested to this friend of mine when I was chatting. I said, ah. Tom, this guy Tom, he's gonna love it. He's gonna read it in a weekend. He's gonna call me on Monday, he's gonna want agent me. It's all gonna be great. Just joking, but thinking, you know what, what a, how amazing if that would happen. Yes. Yeah. So he read it over the weekend. He emailed me on the Monday. We had a call on the Wednesday and we moved forward into seeing agents inside him. So good. Yeah. So good. Yeah. I remember when he called me, I, um, he sort of said, oh, I've just read the book. Um, I love it. And I was like, but, and he says like, oh, no, no, there's no, there's no but. And I was like, but he's like, no, no. This is a good news call. I was like, oh. I couldn't believe it. I just, yeah. To, to again hear like, this is a good book. It's worth reading. Um, and Tom's got so many years of experience in the publishing industry. I knew that if he was taking me on, he was fairly confident that he was gonna find me. A publishing deal.
Emily Stewart:Hello. My name's Emily Stewart, sometimes known as Sensible, Emily and my book Sensible Money, published by A BC Books and Harper Collins came out on the 2nd of July. Sensible money is a guide to help you get better at managing your money. It's really about making the most. Of the money that you have and hopefully go from surviving to thriving when it comes to your finances. And the reason I wrote it is I'm a finance journalist with the A, B, C, and I have been for many years, and I've reported on and spoken to a lot of people who have suffered during this cost of living crisis. People are really struggling and there was a real need for a book that provided the skills and the information for people, as well as the experience with finance reporting. I've also got the education to back it up, so I've got commerce and arts degrees. I've also done a Master's of Business Administration at Melbourne Business School. And I'm one of the truly independent money experts. There's no brand deals or advertising. It's all just about getting the best information. So I've really put everything I know about a whole lot of money topics, how to get the best deals on things, ideas for saving, how to save up for a house, and sort of that process of purchasing a house, how to sort out your super, get out of debt, all those key issues that were not taught in school. And many money books tell you exactly what to do, write down to the product that you should buy. But I really wanted mine to be different. I wanted to empower people so that they had the skills to make their own financial decisions. So it's all about giving people skills that will last them their lifetime, and it could be life changing for people. I got my book deal. Almost as my second child was being born. So I wrote it with a newborn and a and a toddler, so I understand what it's like trying to balance the family budget. So happy reading and stay sensible everyone.
Natasha Rai:And so from that moment where he took you one as his client, how long did it take to get your publishing contract?
Sally Gould:Not very long at all. So, um, there's a little bit of time you lose, I think, with, uh, looking over contracts and things and getting that signed and sorted. And that's a very uncomfortable space for me. Um, it's not. My area of comfort or expertise. So I felt quite stressed getting all that just sorted. Um, but my husband, his work industry is very into contracts, so he's like, oh, this is such an everyday thing. But for me in the work I do, I'm like, seems like such a big deal and all these legal terminology and signing this stuff, it seems very big, but it was all quite smooth in the end. It just takes time. Um, but within a couple of weeks after that, Tom had. I think I met with six publishing houses and I, he had five offers on the table.
Natasha Rai:Oh, so amazing. It's like the dream, isn't it?
Sally Gould:It is. And Thomas was sort of just like, oh yeah, this is what I expected. I was like, this is not what I expected at all. This is unbelievable. I cannot believe it. Yeah.
Natasha Rai:Um, and then once you went ahead and signed with Simon Schuster, right? Yep. Yeah. So there was an another editing round. Yep. So, so I'm really interested, Sally, because, um, and once again, I don't wanna give anything away to people who haven't read your memoir yet, but I know that there are parts of it that are challenging as a reader, so it might have been challenging for you to kind of revisit or work on them again. How did you look after yourself during those, that kind of rounds of editing where you kind of knew that you're not. Working on this to make it better like you are, but also there is, there will be now an endpoint where it will be published. Was that different for you?
Sally Gould:Yes. I think, uh, my mind tried to protect me in not even considering the possibility that people were going to read it. I know that sounds ridiculous, but Nope,
Natasha Rai:not at all. Actually,
Sally Gould:I very much, um, was writing just a product that I was proud of that I wanted to be in the book. And that's as far as I sort of allowed myself to think. I didn't wanna go down the rabbit hole of what's this person gonna think or what's that person gonna think or what, what is anyone gonna say about it or what's everyone's opinion gonna be about it? Because I just knew that was just, that's actually out of my control and all I could control was doing my best to create a product, a finished product that I was happy with that was, um, authentic and genuine. And that, yeah, I'd be proud to say yes. I wrote that and that's as far as I think I allowed it. And it wasn't until I submitted the final manuscript after the final sort of proofread that I had this moment and I thought, people are gonna read this. Uh, yeah. But I think it, it helped me very much just to. Think of something I wanted to be proud of putting out there and not so much about how that was gonna be responded to. Yeah.
Natasha Rai:Which I really like because it just reframes it into, again, the, the quality of the work and the standards that you've set yourself. Yes. As opposed to that personal type of feedback or critique.
Sally Gould:Yes. I think also the. The thing I was most afraid of is that I wasn't a good enough writer to pull it off. I trusted my skills as a paramedic and I trusted that I'd represented my journey, um, in its truest sense, and I was content with that. The bit that I felt worried about was whether I was righty enough to pull it off perhaps.
Natasha Rai:Is that still a worry now?
Sally Gould:Uh, yeah. I still feel. Uh, very novice in this space. Yeah, I still enjoy it and I think that it shouldn't be a barrier if you don't think you're good enough. Um, because I've got a published book, right? Like that's fact. I can't argue with that. I'm a published author. Um, but I think it's hard when in my paramedic work I'm so high up in my chosen area and I hold myself to such a high standard. To me that's more measurable than my writing, which is a bit more subjective perhaps.
Natasha Rai:Mm-hmm. And you know, on that point as well, in terms of feedback, um, frog's been out for. In July was that we said three. Three and a bit months. Yeah, just over
Sally Gould:three months.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. And I know that at the beginning when it first came out, you had a lot of publicity, um, events that you did to promote the book. And um, I'm also aware that you've received some, sometimes bizarre, sometimes negative feedback. Mm. How do you look after yourself? Like, what do you do? Do you respond to them? Do you ignore them? Do you block them?
Sally Gould:Yeah. So. In terms of people directly, directly contacting me, everything has been generally positive feedback, so people would take the time to direct message me. And get in contact are normally just absolutely heartwarming, lovely stories, people connecting, people building better relationships with their relatives as a result, people having insight into their paramedic relatives lives. Um, just such wonderful things. Um, the, the space where it gets super toxic, um, and people. I feel like they have a right to comment on you are, especially things where parts of my writing has been taken out of context, or it's just a small excerpt, or it's an excerpt within an article that's been written by someone else, or it's a, you know, attention grabbing headline that I didn't write. Um. And people have read the first paragraph or made up an opinion and just wanna go to town on having their say about something that they've got their knickers in or not about. Um, and that happens online in, you know, Facebook comments, um, Instagram comments on things that are not, that I haven't directly posted or had control over. And I think when the book first came out. I was struggling to look at that stuff because, just because I didn't like watching myself on tv and so I was able to sort of avoid that. Just I don't need to see it. I was there, I said, what? I said I can't change it, and then I'll just let it exist now out in the ether. But I thought at a point, oh, I'm feeling pretty strong. I've got some good feedback. And I decided to look at some comments about, um, an article that was posted in one of the papers and. I was, uh, shocked, uh, by yeah, what people think they have a right to comment on. And so I, I found that really difficult, uh, really upsetting. But I think originally my main, uh, method of dealing with it was I just set a rule. I'm not gonna look 100% not gonna look, so I don't look at. Any reviews? Any comments, any comments posted on any articles, um, excerpts, anything online? Um, blanket rule? I don't Look. And the other thing is if I accidentally come across one of these, I created a little note on my phone of things just to remind myself of that I can go into and just reflect on because, um, it's easy to feel the hate in people's words and to let that sort of flow into what you believe about yourself. But the things I wanted to remind myself were. They're written by people that don't know me, that people don't do what I do, that haven't been through what I've been through. Um, and they're, you know, they're not my friends and their thoughts and opinions on me do not change my value or worth as a human, and nor does it change the respect that my friends and family have for me. So just really separating out that that's happening out there and that energy doesn't actually have to affect anything. For me has been really important. Yeah.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. And you know, like I really, when you initially shared some, you didn't share the actual feedback, but you said you'd received some kind of negative feedback. I was so shocked as well, because I was thinking how like, I don't know, it's just, I. When people write memoir, and especially when you're writing not just about your vulnerability, but helping and supporting people in their most vulnerable, intense moments, it's like, how can you hate that? I just don't understand. So I really, yeah, go on. I,
Sally Gould:I also thought that the feedback that was gonna upset me the most would be like writing feedback, because that's what I felt most vulnerable about. Um, I haven't received any of that. Like if someone came at me and said like, oh, the pacing of this chapter was. Terrible, and this was poorly described or whatever. Great. Like I'd love to look into that because if, when I write my next book, uh, it can be better because of that feedback. But none of it is, um, constructive criticism or about writing. It's just like a person. Yeah. Me as a person is apparently offended. Some people who don't even know me.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. And you know, just that. I mean, I, I'm, in my head I was calling an evidence log of like all the things that mean that this feedback isn't worth your attention or your time. Um, also all the other feedback that you've received from people you dunno, who are like, I love this and I understand that this is, you know, my family members' experience and that I hope goes somewhere as well to kind of alleviating the, the hurt from the, the toxic stuff.
Sally Gould:Yeah, it, it's, um, thankfully, yeah, far outweighs, um, the toxic stuff. But just reminding myself that it's never gonna be worth giving those people the time of day or any, not even a second of my time to look at the comments. Yeah. It's just not worth it.
Natasha Rai:Good advice. And I'm, I'm really sorry that that was part of your experience.'cause it's so, it's so hard a, getting a book published b being visible like that, so yeah, it's, it sucks.
Sally Gould:Yeah, it, it does. But mm-hmm. I think it says a lot more about them than it does about
Natasha Rai:me. Oh, for sure. For sure. Yeah. But yeah. So what does your writing practice look like now?
Sally Gould:So now that I originally set out just to write this one book, uh, so I've found that once I lost the focus of having this book deadline and the target of having it on a shelf was gone. The structure of writing kind of flew out the window. Um, I've also got two young kids and so I felt like it was time for a season where I put a bit more energy back into them and being a bit more present and not behind the laptop typing at all hours. Um, that said, I'm still, I've got so many ideas ticking over, um, in my mind and for a month, um, I did just do like a daily thing and it was just a sit down for 10 minutes'cause. I know if I can convince myself to sit down for 10 minutes, it will often turn into more than 10 minutes. Um, and that worked quite well just to get some ideas down. But I find it so hard to start writing something that I don't know where it's gonna end up. And that's just part of my personality is that until I've got a fully formed idea, I find it hard to chip away at anything because it feels like there's potential. It'll be lost time. And I know that's super destructive to me as a writer because it doesn't. Just let me foster the creative side and the art and letting you know, whatever happens happen. Um, but at the moment, I think I'm just torn on a couple of ideas that I wanna write about. Um, it would be nonfiction again. Mm-hmm. Um,
Natasha Rai:so, so just on that point about writing, when you don't really know where it's going mm-hmm. Do you try and plot then, or at least have you know how you,'cause you mentioned with Frog you discovered or you worked specifically very consciously on arcs. Mm. So with your ideas now, like is that a possibility or are the ideas still too new to figure that out yet?
Sally Gould:I think there's too new, so I'm in that phase of trying to play around with ideas and occasionally I'll just flesh out a scene because I feel like particularly drawn to it. Um, but I'm just not sure where it's going at the moment. So I don't know. I'm kind of, I can't say that's
Natasha Rai:making you uncomfortable.
Sally Gould:It, I'm uncomfortable, but I'm trying to remain curious about it.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. So this, this is a very different experience then because, you know, frog obviously came out of, um, journal entries and reflections on your clinical practice. So this, this sounds like a very different approach even from the beginning.'cause you're phys not physically, but you. Actively sitting down to write something. Yeah. Sounds quite different.
Sally Gould:Yeah. With Frog, I had the fleshed out full journals from the ride along, and even for years after that, sometimes it would just be like a couple of words on a little notepad about a job. But I remember the job exactly. So reproducing that was not hard. Whereas this is just, I don't know, so much more open. It's so much more, yeah. To explore and decide what I wanna put on the page. Yeah.
Natasha Rai:And I know this is just, uh, very newish ideas, but in, in the ideas, is there a temptation or a desire to revisit paramedicine?
Sally Gould:I've had a few people contact me and say, oh, I wanted to read more of Frog. Can you do a sequel? And that type of thing. Um, it's certainly not gonna be a sequel. I don't feel like I've got enough to say that's that similar, that would flow on from Frog. I think Frog is the standalone kind of piece in that sense. Um, I also think that's part of the thing I'm trying to figure out is that the paramedicine is so much of my identity and plays such a role in my life that, you know, half of my days are days on at at work and half of the days at home where the other life kind of happens. So how do you write about that stuff in life without the work, which makes up such a huge part of my time throughout the week. Mm. Um, yeah, that's another balance I guess I'm trying to find. Maybe it's harder because I'm now thinking about what a reader would like to read with Frog. I didn't have that thought. I just had, I'm writing this for me because I want to, and now the IT. Not, it's ruined it, but you get what I mean when you get Yeah. You have additional
Natasha Rai:things you have to consider now.
Sally Gould:Yeah. That makes it more complicated and puts more weight on it and just means you're thinking about more things as you go instead of just enjoying writing.
Natasha Rai:Yeah, for sure. And I'm just a co we've just got time for a couple more questions. So, um, how have your colleagues and peers received frog?
Sally Gould:Yeah, really, really well. Um, I've had nothing but good feedback, thankfully from them. Um, a lot of them, some will private message and just say, thank you so much for including the EL elements that you did.'cause they can resonate with it, but they hadn't had the courage to, to speak up about it or to label it or to get help for it. And I think that's super rewarding. Um, people, yeah. Colleagues that have spoken to me see themselves in the book and that's, that was the purpose. Not that it was my story, that it was just a paramedic story that. Every paramedic has done jobs similar and can see themselves in, in that space. So yeah,
Natasha Rai:visibility, right?
Sally Gould:Yeah. And I think that's super important for them because the work we are doing is so unique and not many people understand it. So they're feeling seen and validated that there's something out there that they can give to friends and family and say, Hey, this is what I do. This is the way I am, the way I am. This is why I'm tired and grumpy. This is why my humor is so warped. Um, and the other one I've received feedback from is. The paramedics relatives. So they've passed it on to their mom or their sister or their cousin or whoever. And I've received, they've passed on all of their messages saying, oh, mom said that this should be mandatory reading for all relatives of paramedics and those types of things. So that's been
Natasha Rai:amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I really love, I love that. And so Sally, um, in addition to everything that you've so generously shared, do you have any tips or maybe. Things for people to think about if they are a pub, trying to pursue a traditional publishing deal or publishing or writing a memoir and or any of those.
Sally Gould:I think you don't have
Natasha Rai:to answer all those three things. Just, yeah, anything that comes to mind. Yeah,
Sally Gould:I think the competitions is probably a big tip. Um, it was just such a good starting point for me that felt non-threatening, uh, but a way that I could access feedback and start getting a little bit of traction and it felt like. A good place to start. So I'd say if you're in that phase and you are not for whatever reason, not quite ready to submit, want a bit more, um, advice or feedback, do those online manuscript assessments, do the competitions and just start getting that little bit of feedback and yeah. And. Be okay with the feedback.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. I mean, you know, if you give yourself time with any type of feedback, you allow it to sink in. Mm-hmm. And especially, I think it, that really hals back to what you were saying before. If you don't know anyone in the industry and you don't have right of friends or community yet, that's a really nice way of getting, um, some feedback, right?
Sally Gould:Yeah. And I think in this day and age where you can Google so much, it can be overwhelming with the information, but if you rely on. Those local resources that you know are reputable. It's such a good place to start because places like the A SA website have so much information and courses and day events and writing spaces and there's actually so much out there that I didn't realize. And that was a another good non-threatening way to start just having a look at online resources and seeing if you could apply anything that you learned to the manuscript you've got and just one step at a time. Yeah.
Natasha Rai:Love it. Thank you so much, Sally, for joining me today. It was a real pleasure to talk to you.
Sally Gould:Thank you so much for having me.
Natasha Rai:Having listened to my chat with Sally Gould, there's one theme that really struck me and that is the intention that I'm setting for listeners who are working on a project or who are thinking about getting into a project over the next month. So. Time. So Sally talked a lot about the time that she takes after she gets feedback, the time that she took to work on her manuscript. And time seems to be a theme that has come up for me personally over the last few weeks as well. So here is the intention. You can use time in any of the following ways if you are working on something. So taking a break from your manuscript. Giving it some time to prove, if you will, and then coming back to it to have a look at it. So if you have just finished something, maybe you could leave it aside and come back to it at the end of the month. If you are not working on something, maybe you could return to something old. So something that you've worked on previously. And you haven't looked at for a while. Have a look now. Maybe use the next month or the next few weeks to come at that with fresh eyes and see what comes up for you. What do you notice? What are some things that you can polish or improve or make better or what leaps out at you? And that is of course, the benefit of time. And if you are working on something and you're right in the middle of it and you don't have the capacity right now, to put it aside, how about looking at how you treat time in your manuscript? So Sally talks a little bit about one of the, um, aspects of her manuscript that was really helped by her mentorship was about anchoring her story in time. So have a look at your manuscript and see how you've anchored your story or plot in time. And um, in our next catch up, Madeline, Tina and I will be chatting about this intention and how it kind of influenced our work. Thanks.
Tina Strachan:Thank you for listening to the book Deal podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the pod so you can receive updates as soon as our new apps drop and to keep up to date with what the pod is doing. You can also find us on Instagram.