The Book Deal
Motivation and inspiration for emerging writers, helping them pave their own pathway to publishing success.
The Book Deal
Middle Grade Debut Special with Shara Curlett, Sandy Bigna and Lucie Stevens
Getting That Elusive Book Deal: Insights from Debut Authors
In this episode of the Book Deal podcast, host Tina Strachan interviews three debut middle grade authors: Lucie Stevens, Shara Curlett, and Sandy Bigna. The authors discuss their unique publication journeys, the importance of community and continuous learning, and share valuable tips for aspiring writers. They also delve into the genres of middle grade literature, discussing themes, character ages, and writing conventions. The episode highlights the importance of resilience, the role of social media, and maintaining the joy of writing. Special mention is made of the supportive writing communities and platforms such as the CBCA and the now-disbanded Duck Pond.
00:00 Introduction to the Book Deal Podcast
00:56 Special Episode: Middle Grade Debut Authors
01:11 Meet the Authors: Lucie Stevens, Shara Curlett, and Sandy Bigna
03:37 Lucie Stevens' Debut Novel: A Spooky Adventure
05:21 Sandy Bigna's Verse Novel: Bones and Magic
08:13 Shara Curlett's Magical Adventure: Welcome to Miracle
10:08 Understanding Middle Grade Fiction
14:47 Sandy Bigna's Publication Journey
24:20 Lucie Stevens' Path to Publication
33:20 The Thrill of a Two-Book Deal
34:15 Shara's Unique Journey to Publication
38:06 Finding Community and Support
44:54 Debut Spotlight with Natalie Kyriacou
46:46 The Importance of Continuous Learning
47:32 Tips for Aspiring and Debut Authors
59:47 The Role of Social Media in a Writer's Journey
01:03:00 Final Thoughts and Farewell
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This is the Book Deal podcast
Madeleine Cleary:where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books.
Natasha Rai:We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal.
Tina Strachan:So no matter what's. Stage of writing your at. We've got you covered. I'm Tina Strachan.
Madeleine Cleary:I'm Madeline Cleary.
Natasha Rai:And I'm Natasha Rai.
Tina Strachan:And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors
Madeleine Cleary:one deal at a time. The book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners, the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
Tina Strachan:Welcome everybody to this very special episode of the book Deal podcast, where we have not one but three guests on the show today. Um, so it could go completely pear shaped, but we'll see how we go because, um, I'm sure we have lots to share and it's, but it's gonna be lots of fun. So, uh, because this week's app is a middle grade debut author special, so I'm really excited to introduce Lucie Stevens
Lucie Stevens:Hi. So excited to be here.
Tina Strachan:So excited to have you. Um, and Shara Curlett
Shara Curlett:Hi. Thank you so much for having me away from New Zealand.
Tina Strachan:anytime. Uh, and Sandy Bigna,
Sandy Bigna:Hi. Lovely to be here.
Tina Strachan:And you're right, we are from all over Australia at the moment. Shara, you are normally in New Zealand, but yet you are, um, in our wonderful, uh, land at the moment. So can you tell us where, where are you at the moment, SHA Are you still in Brisbane?
Shara Curlett:Yes. Yeah, I've just been, um, at the conference for CYA or see ya, and I'm still at the hotel and then I fly out to Sydney this afternoon. So.
Tina Strachan:Yeah. And, and you have to leave very shortly. So, and then you've been in Sydney for a bit and then popping home, um, which is very exciting. And Sandy, where are you?
Sandy Bigna:So I'm in Canberra, which is freezing.
Tina Strachan:Yeah, right.
Sandy Bigna:So jealous of everyone who lives up north. It's very cold.
Tina Strachan:it is pretty sunny and lovely up here in Queensland on the Gold Coast. Um, and Lucie, where are you?
Lucie Stevens:I'm in Sydney and it's a beautiful sunny wind Today here, actually the perfect kind of temperature for me. I love cold, but sunny, that's my favorite. So I'm very happy with the weather at the moment.
Tina Strachan:Awesome. Okay. So, um, this is gonna be a really exciting episode for all our listeners, especially those that are writing middle grade, um, or writing any kind of kid lit and maybe wanting to venture into middle ga, middle grade, um, and wanting to know, you know, how to get published or, and how to write because you're all actually writing quite different genres, don't you, and different styles. So that's really interesting and something I'd love to, um, chat to you about. But first off, ladies, congratulations on your debut books Releasing Into the World this year. It's very exciting. Um, we always love to ask authors and put'em on the spot, um, for their one-liners or their pictures for their books because it's something that we all have to learn how to do as a sparring, authors and debut authors. You know, how to give that cracking one liner or, or your pitch elevator pitch. Um, so I am going to put you on the spot and start with you first. Lucie. Uh, you are, you are quite familiar with the publishing industry as an, as well as a editor and a freelance writer in the past, aren't you? But this is your first published
Lucie Stevens:I am,
Tina Strachan:Yeah.
Lucie Stevens:this is my first published novel, so actually I'm a bit cheeky. I steal my one-liner from James Foley, who is one of my wonderful endorsers, and I really think he said it best. He said that my novel is Mary Poppins, by way of Tim Burton, which I think actually articulates it beautifully. So thank you, James Foley. Um, but yeah, I could tell you a little bit more about the story if you'd like, but that's my one
Tina Strachan:Yeah, it's great. One liner, please tell us more.
Lucie Stevens:so RAP Nanny Tobins is a spooky middle grade adventure fantasy story set in London in 1851. And it's about a girl called Albert Albertine, who's much beloved governess Nanny Tobins dies unexpectedly in a horse riding accident, but she's very, very dedicated to her job. So she returns to the nursery each night at midnight to continue her duties. But unfortunately having a ghost for a ES causes all kinds of chaos in the household, and none of the grownups believe Al Albertine when she says Nanny Tobins has returned. So she realizes fairly quickly that if she doesn't find a way to lay the ghost of her Es to rest, some terrible consequences are coming her way.
Tina Strachan:It's such a amazing book, Lucie, and such a, um, unique plot, isn't it? Unique idea and I love it. I love what you said about, um, stealing the blurb or the one liner from someone else.'cause Yes, I'm the same since I've, my book's been out and other people have reviewed it, I'm like, wow, you actually made that sound so much better. Much better. So
Lucie Stevens:Yeah, it makes it easier.
Tina Strachan:Yeah, maybe I'll start stealing this as well. But, um, congratulations. Um, and Sandy, you are involved, you've been involved in the Kid Lit World for a while now too, haven't you? As a blogger of Australian Kid Lit and a big supporter of, uh, Australian Kid Lit, can you, yeah. can you, introduce us to your debut novel?
Sandy Bigna:yeah. So, um, as you said, I've been reviewing, um, kids' books on Instagram for a while and, um, yeah, my debut novel is a verse novel and it's about a girl called Bones. She's 11 years old, also slightly spooky. Um, bones is a bit lonely and she likes to collect animal bones and other discarded treasures, and she sketches them. And then one day she accidentally brings to life the skeleton of a small bird. Um, but as it turns out, bird doesn't actually want to be resurrected, and he asks bones to reverse the accidental curse that she's put on him. So Bones needs to figure out the secrets of the magic and then also see if she can sum it up, the courage to say goodbye. So yeah, I think like Lucie's book, it is, it's a little bit quirky, a little bit, um, spooky and there's sort of themes of, uh, friendship and hope, um, as well.
Tina Strachan:Yeah. I love that. Yeah, you're right. It's another unique storyline that I love and the verse, it's first verse novel.
Sandy Bigna:Yeah. So it's written inverse.
Tina Strachan:Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about verse novel, or for people who don't understand what Verse novel is, or maybe wanting to write in that?
Sandy Bigna:Yeah, so, um, verse novels, they follow a standard narrative arc, so they've got the same sort of plot and characters, um, but it's just written in verse instead of, instead of your standard narrative prose. So, um, you know, I think a lot of people think it's like poetry and it rhymes and that they're sort of standalone verses and they are standalone verses. But, um, they do follow that sort of standard narrative arc as well. And, and I suppose it's, they're a bit more succinct. Um, you've really gotta get to the heart of the story and to choose your words very carefully. So there's lots of white space, um, around the words and really good for reluctant readers.
Tina Strachan:Yeah. And how many words normally is a middle grade verse? Is there rules around that?
Sandy Bigna:Um, there are,'cause when I first wrote it, it was way too long. It was about. 33,000 words. And then I was encouraged to cut about 15,000 words. So, um, got it down to about 22,000 words. So ideally between 20 and 22,000 words, which is an advantage, right? Because they're shorter to write, hardly recommend it.
Tina Strachan:But there's lots of illustrations in yours too, isn't
Sandy Bigna:They're are some beautiful illustrations by Yeah, gorgeous, uh, line drawings, which takes up a bit of, uh, space as well in the book. So it looks quite a thick book, but it's actually very quick to read.
Tina Strachan:Yeah. Yeah. No, it's incredible. So, um, Shara, Can you please give us, uh, your one-liner and your pitch and tell us a little bit about your debut book?
Shara Curlett:All right. Thank you so much for having me, Tina. It's so great being on the podcast. I've listened to it for a very long time, ever since you started, and you and Madeline are doing a wonderful job. Um, so welcome to Miracle is about an 11-year-old girl who is cursed by chaos and can never go to a magical island nearby. Uh, that basically gives visitors magic for 24 hours. So when she's invited to go, she suspects that there is more to it. So I. It's, it's basically a supercharged, magical adventure. It's fast paced. Um, and the inspiration came from what if Charlie and the chocolate factory was a magical island instead?
Tina Strachan:I love that. That's so good. Great Comp ti uh, like a great comp title. Title as well, which is really important. And I just love that Curse by Chaos thing. It's great. Such a good hook. Such a good hook, and an an incredible book as well. So here on the book deal podcast, we love hearing, well, mostly I love hearing about, um, publication journeys. I just, this is one of the reasons why we started the podcast'cause we just, I just can't get enough of here Publica publication journeys, um,'cause they're so different. Everybody has a completely different story. They're very unique and it's important for people who are listening to the pod.'cause we have lots of listeners who are aspiring authors and I just really wanna know how to get there and how do I, how do I get my books published and you know, what are the steps? And you know, I guess there's a few things that are common for everybody. And I mean, getting, actually putting your work out there is probably the number one step that we all take. But. Everybody just, it's just a different path and we just have to forge our own pathway forward. So, um, but before I get into that, can someone, um, just explain for people who are listening, what middle grade is, uh, some sort of, you know, some rules around that because some people don't understand what middle grade is. Who wants to jump in?
Lucie Stevens:I feel like Sandy would probably be the best person to represent the Kid Lit community here, if you're okay with that,
Sandy Bigna:Yeah, yeah, no, that's fine. Um, I think the issue with middle grade is I think there's lower middle grade and upper middle grade. So the general rule is, um, sort of between, I'd say eight to 12 years old, categorize as middle grade. But I think within that space there's also your lower middle grade, sort of maybe for eight to nine year olds or eight to 10 year olds. And then you've got your upper middle grade, which can actually extend up to 13, uh, years old as well. So, but I think generally speaking, I'm sitting on the shelves, it would be, uh, eight, eight to 12 I think. Does everyone think that sounds accurate?
Tina Strachan:Yeah, it's usually what they market it as, isn't it? And I mean, but also regardless of what they market it as, it's what the reader feels comfortable reading or what the parent who's buying the book feels as suitable for their child, right? So they could be young and reading up just'cause they're very clever at it. But also older kids can be reading middle grade because that's the level that they're at and that's what they're comfortable with. And it doesn't matter as long as they're reading, isn't it? Um, yeah. And what about the length, um, Shara, do you have some comments on like what the length of those book, of what a middle grade book usually is? And it sometimes depends on genre, doesn't it?
Shara Curlett:It does. And I think it's in flux at the moment, I think because readers, uh, it's hard to grab their attention and if it's not fast paced, it's easy to lose them. Um, so I think as a standard, 40 to 50,000 words, 60,000 words at the max, um, I write fantasy, which has a little bit more leeway, um, in saying that I, I can see publishers moving towards the 20,000 middle grade space because all, all we want to do is get kids reading and if, if long books are not capturing all of them, perhaps shorter books will, I think there's, there's room to be creative. I, I personally think, but yeah, 50, I'd say 50,000 is the standard, but I think watch the space.
Tina Strachan:Yeah. And what about, um, the content, Lucie? Have you found that there's any rules sort of around like character ages and what can and can't be written into a middle grade?
Lucie Stevens:Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think most of the middle grade books are about friendship, family, courage, resilience, these kinds of themes, which personally, I think are universal themes that are applicable to everybody at every age. And I think that's why a lot of older readers and adults also can enjoy middle grade fiction because these, these are resonant themes through our whole journey of life. Right. So, um, and age-wise. So I did a master's in writing for children and young adults over in Manchester, um, a few years ago. And they told us that the rule of thumb was that your protagonist should be ideally two years older than your intended reader. Um, and that's actually a rule that I have defied in my novel for strategic reasons, but that's, that's what we were taught. Um, but I think, you know, there's always exceptions to the rule. I think what's what's important is if it's, it's done deliberately, not just sort of random. Like I think if you wanna defy a convention, you have to have a reason behind it. But yeah, I think generally, um, it's good if kids are reading about a character that's a little bit older than them. So it's a little bit sort of aspirational in a way.
Tina Strachan:Yeah. Yeah. And also I think sometimes there's, um, a note, not really any romance in middle grade is there, like you tend to stay away from that. Um, and yeah, like you said, there's still that sort of message at the core, but you don't wanna be obvious about it. A all like, I think in junior fiction you can be a little bit more, um, straightforward with your, with the, your message at the end, you know that, you know, the characters learned their lesson and things like that. But in middle grade, like you, they, you just can't be obvious with that. I think, hey, you've gotta sort of weave it in there a little bit better, but still sort still have it, if that makes sense.
Lucie Stevens:Yeah, definitely
Tina Strachan:Yes. Kids don't like being taught, especially not through their books. Right. Um, okay, cool. All right, so publication journeys. Uh, Sandy, I'm gonna start with you. Can you please tell us, even back from when you first started writing, how did you start writing and, and what started, um, you on that journey, and then how did you actually get to signing on the dotted line of that elusive book deal?
Sandy Bigna:Yeah, well, it goes way back for me because I was that kid that sort of grew up reading and writing from a really early age, and I was really lucky to be surrounded by books and reading. Um, my siblings wrote and we read our stories aloud to each other. Um, so when I was about six, I think I thought I'd become a published author, probably by the ripe old age of 18. Sadly, that did not happen. Um, the, the pathway to publication was a lot bumpier and a lot longer than that. Um, along the way I, um, had lots of. Sort of writing highs and lows. Um, I went on to study some creative writing at University of Canberra, and then I went on to work as a children's librarian for a while and that actually reignited my love of, uh, children's books. Um, and I sort of thought, ah, yeah, I actually wouldn't mind, you know, I was writing at university. I think I was writing more sort of literary fiction and, and stories for adults. Uh, mostly short stories. And then I, um, you know, reading the books to the children in the libraries, it sort of reignited my passion for children's books. Um, so I did submit, um, to publishers, lots of rejections. Um, and, and then I think, you know, I had three children sort of two years apart and that I think that really diverted some of my creative energy for a while, like. We can probably relate to that. Um, that it just, you know, let's face it, kind of exhausting. Um, so I was still, you know, I was still, uh, attending workshops where I could, um, some online, some in person and daydreaming of ideas. Um, then, uh, as the, as the kids got a little bit older, that creative energy came back to me. And, um, like I said before, I think it was, it was about 2020 when I discovered the Bookstagram community on Instagram. And I was like, oh, here's this space where people are reviewing books, chatting about books. And I thought I could do that. You know, I'd, I'd love to review children's books. Um, so I set up my own platform and started connecting with other creatives and, um, I was meeting children's authors and illustrators, publishers were sending me books to review. And I was, you know, making these connections and really loving what I was doing. Um, I, I was still writing, but not submitting as much. But then in 2022, I think it was, I thought, okay, now I've gotta get serious. If I wanna get something published myself, I've actually gotta carve out the time and, um, think of myself as a writer, not just, um, you know, loved reviewing, um, other people's books, but I really wanted to be, be an author myself. So that's when I sat down to start focus on writing, um, little Bones, which had been swirling around in my head in various formats over the years. But, um, when I started writing it, it just wasn't working. It was, um, the narrator was different to Bones. It was a, um, it was a girl originally who could see animal ghosts, so similar but not quite, not quite working. Um, it wasn't a verse novel, it was just, um, standard prose and it just, you know, it didn't have that magic vibe. Um, but then at some point it just, this strong visual image came to me of this girl. She was dressed all in dark clothes and she was digging down, um, near water with a stick. And immediately I knew that this girl was lonely, that she'd lost something, and that she was digging for animal bones, which. Seems very random, but I think I've always had this kind of quirky obsession with, I don't know, like Halloween spooky stories. was inevitable. There was gonna be some sort of talking skeleton in my first book. Um, so once I had nailed her voice and then, um, the format, because her story would only be told as a verse novel. It wasn't really a conscious decision to write it as a verse novel. Um, it just, that's just the way it came out. That's when I was like, okay, this feels right, this, I had that, um, excitement get when you, you feel like you've nailed it. Um, so I'd connected with, uh, Julianne Grasso on Instagram who hosts the middle grade Mavens podcast, and she was doing pitch assessments and so I sent. My pitch in the first few pages of the manuscript, she was really enthusiastic and she encouraged me to keep pushing through and finish it ahead of the Kid Vic Conference. Um, which was happening in, um, I think it was April, 2023. So she said, just push through, get a finish manuscript. So I largely wrote the manuscript, the rest of the manuscript over the summer of 20 22, 20 23, completely ignored my kids, locked myself in a room you can entertain yourselves. Um, and that, and then had the manuscript written and booked an in-person assessment with, uh, Danielle Binks, who was literally my dream agent. And she got back to me before the conference and said, oh, you know, I really like this manuscript. Can you send me the full thing? I was trying not to get my hopes up as you do, you know, and you've had lots of rejections. I was like, yeah, that's, you know, just, just be cool. Like, she's probably just wants to, you know, read it and gimme some feedback. Um, so I went down to the conference, had a chat with Danielle and we were just talking. She was lovely. And then, um, halfway through she said, yeah, you know what? I really love this manuscript and I wanna offer you representation. And I was just like,
Tina Strachan:That's the dream story,
Sandy Bigna:It was, yeah, I was just, it was so unexpected. Uh, you know,'cause you try and keep your hopes very
Tina Strachan:Yeah. You do. You try and keep them. Yeah. Just to self preservation. Right. You don't wanna keep getting hurt. Yeah.
Sandy Bigna:Yeah. Um, so yeah, it sort of, it sort of went from there. And then of course, you know, the. The manuscript had to go out on submission and sort of waiting to see what publishers, if any, would get back. So again, it's keeping those hopes manageable. And then UQP, um, indicated they were interested in setting up a Zoom meeting and, um, Kathy Lance, um, had a chat with me and Danielle, and then not long after that, she got back to, um, Danielle and said she'd like to offer a contract and a two book deal with UQP. So that's basically, sorry, quite a long story, but how it, um, yeah, how it came about and then signing that contract and it was, you know, a dream come true after the many, many, many years of rejections and putting things on hold and having kids and, you know, feeling like it may never happen.
Tina Strachan:Yeah, no, that's such an important and incredible story, important story though, because, um, your rejections can really get you down. And that's why I just love sharing these stories because it's so important for people to hear these, um, really great outcomes. And had you have, let those rejections get you down and stop you from writing or doubt yourself to a point that you just don't wanna submit anymore, you'd never be here now with this book, which ev, which has had such amazing reviews and, and feedback and it's, it's just been incredible. Congratulations, Sandy. So tell us, um, two book deals though, is the second book related to little bones or.
Sandy Bigna:No, so the second book, uh, will be completely different still. Um, yeah, it's still trying to get the magic that I felt with Little Bones. I think it's that second book. Pressure that people talk about. And your head space is still obviously with that first book. Yeah. I wanna hear Lucie's story about this.'Cause I know she's doing a book too. Um, or has done, but um, yeah, it's, it's, it's completely different to Book one where there's no pressure, you're just doing it for yourself
Tina Strachan:Just writing words and throwing them away and just taking your time and Absolutely.
Sandy Bigna:Well, you would know about this too, Tina, with a booked, you know, your
Tina Strachan:And three. I know. Yeah. Yeah.
Sandy Bigna:goodness.
Tina Strachan:It's different when there's a deadline. We could do a whole episode on second book syndrome, I'm gonna call it. It is, yeah. And it's across, it's across the board and it's, yeah. Lots of people are chatting about it, but that's incredible. Um, incredible story. Um, so can, so yeah. Lucie, let's move on to you. Tell us about your story from, you know, when you first started writing and, and how that happened and, um, to signing on that dotted line.
Lucie Stevens:Well, I, a, a lot of what Sandy said resonates with me too, actually. So, um, my publication journey has also been very, very long. I've wanted to be an author, uh, specifically a novelist since I was really a very young child. I think even before I really understood what an author was, I knew I wanted to, to make books and write books. Um, so I, I had sort of tried really hard, um, in my younger years. Um, same as Sandy thought. Oh yeah. By the time I'm, I thought, yes, definitely by the time I'm in my early twenties I will have published a novel, but, uh, that's not how it came about. So, um, sort of the, the publication journey for RIP, nanny Tobins started with, uh, a big disappointment. Um, I had been working on another novel, uh, as part of my dissertation for my master's program, and I had secured representation and I'd also had a few successes that I think Sandy can also relate to. So, Varuna Fellowship, I received an a SA mentorship, um, to support the development, which you know, was so exciting and. Very much a, a high and sort of a vote of confidence. So, uh, but this novel was not the first novel that I'd been through that process with. So there was one even before that that I'd also received a UNA fellowship for, and an a SA mentorship for, and it hadn't secured publications so. When I was working on this other one as part of my dissertation, I thought finally, finally, this is going to happen. This is going to be the one that sort of, um, you know, heals all the heartbreak from the previous big disappointment and heartbreak. So anyway, um, my agent started shopping That one around, that one was, um, so this was happening in, um, in 2022. And after a couple of submissions, which were rejections, we got some feedback about it. And my agent said to me, I think we need to pull this from submissions for the moment, and you need to have a rethink about it. And I was sort of all, you know, ready to jump in. And I said to her, I know how to fix it. I know how, how I can change things and it'll be great. And she said, no, no, no, no, no. You need to take a break from this novel. You need to step away from it. And I thought she was gonna say to me, you know, why don't you take up crocheting or something like this? And she said, I want you to go away and write me something fun. So, um, at this point I was, I was devastated to have to go through this whole sort of process of rejection and heartbreak again. And, um, I also had a very, very heavy. Uh, client workload. So I work as a freelance editor, so I was working, you know, an average of six, six and a half days a week. And I thought if I don't enroll in some kind of program or structure to support my writing, I'm just not gonna do it at the moment because I was so heartbroken and feeling very sort of de-energized and not very motivated about it. Um, but I had mentioned this idea of this ghost governess to my agent Dean, and she said, I love it. Write that, write that story. So I hadn't really done a lot of thinking about the story. Um, but I enrolled in a four month program run by Sarah Sentis, who, if you've ever worked with her, you will be familiar with her unique brand of magic. Um, so this great four month program called the Word River and I decided that by the end of six months I wanted to have a first draft of this ghost governance novel. I didn't do any planning, which is highly unusual for me. I'm not a total planner. I'm a bit of a, like halfway between a planner and a pants. Um, but I didn't do any research, which is kind of funny'cause it is a historical novel. But I thought, I'm just gonna sit down, smash out a, a first draft in six months and see if I can do it. And just really lean into the joy of creating, not worry about this going anywhere, just really write something for myself and have fun with it. So I did that. I managed somehow, I still don't know to this day how I managed to pull it off with the workload I had at the time, but. I did end up with a first draft in that period, and I sent it to Dean, my agent thinking, um, she's probably, I had some concerns about it. Um, the tone, the voice of the novel is very, very quaint, and that's for a particular reason. And without this sort of quaint voice, the whole novel really wouldn't work because it's the, it's the point of view of the protagonist, um, that really makes the whole story work. So I thought it's, this voice is not gonna land with a contemporary audience. So I had very low expectations and I didn't wanna do any more work on it until Deanne had looked at it. Um, but she came back to me very quickly and she said that she absolutely loved it and to keep going. So she gave me some notes and I spent another sort of probably about six to eight months working on it, sent it back to her and she said, okay, let's give this one a go. So she started sending it out. Uh, a first rejection came through. The publisher absolutely loved it, but she couldn't get it through acquisitions, so I was straight away. I was like, oh, no one's gonna want this novel. You know, people might love it, but they don't think there's a market for it. And I was very kind of like, woe is me. Then we got a second rejection and I was like, yeah, this is, you know, hard evidence that this, this novel is not going anywhere. And I'm sort of back to square one again. Um, and then one day Dean called me, which was really unusual. Normally we only ever communicate via email, and she said, Lisa Berryman from Harper Collins wants to speak to you. And I was like, why, why, why? Um, and she said, oh, she just wants to have a chat and get a feel for you as a person. So we lined up a call and um, had a lovely conversation with Lisa. Lisa is also another very wonderful, magical person. And, um, she said to me, okay, um, I really. This manuscript, I'm gonna share it with my editorial team and then we're gonna, um, sort of take it from there. So her team loved it and she then came back and said, we're now gonna take it to acquisitions. But of course, after so much history of rejection, uh, like Sandy, I just didn't wanna believe that maybe this would happen this time. Um, and so I really just. I kept my expectations very low. But, um, and there was sort of a, a, a bit of a gap between hearing that and the actual meeting. And in that time, DeAnn had come back and said to me, they're now discussing a two book deal, just to let you know, make sure you have another idea up your sleeve kind of thing. Um, and at that time I did have another idea up my sleeve, but it was a different idea to the one that I ended up pitching to Lisa. Um, so there is a sequel coming out for RIP, nanny Tobins. It'll be coming out mid 2026. And I literally had the idea for it. The day before my meeting with Lisa to pitch my idea, I was cleaning the shower. I had this amazing flash of inspiration and I was like, oh. That's what I should be pitching. Um, and uh, and she loved it. So there was then a sort of a period of time, so this was towards the end of 2023 now. Um, and of course we were falling into the holiday period at the end of the year. And, uh, things went quiet for a little while. And of course I started to panic thinking, okay, things have changed. It was at the time to, um, when, uh, target was bought by Kmart and this had caused a little bit of instability in the market. And I thought, oh no, you know, this is gonna have ramifications. Um, but actually what was happening was DeAnn was just doing a brilliant job as an agent. And, um, you know. Negotiating some courses in my contract to my benefit. So, um, that's really what was happening behind the scenes while I was meanwhile panicking. Um, and then, yeah, so I think in January, 2024, I signed my two book deal with Huffer Collins, which just blew my mind. Um, although it was quite funny'cause it was done electronically, so it was almost a little bit anti-climatic. It was just like clicking a box. It wasn't this sort of romantic notion of printing out a copy or receiving a hard copy in the mail and getting a beautiful pen and signing on the dotted line. Um, but of course it was still an amazing moment. Um, but a very long lead time into publication then. Um, and that was strategic so that I would have time to write the sequel, uh, before, you know, get a lot of the sequel kind of written before the first one came out. So yeah, that's, that's sort of the journey.
Tina Strachan:It's incredible journey. Um, yeah, it's, it's a bit, um, when things go quiet, it's your, your or your brain just goes to the, oh yeah, they've just decided they don't want it anymore. I'm just gonna get an email every, any minute now saying, actually rethought that we are taking it off the table. Uh, you know, I look, it's probably happened before, but it's, um, yeah, it's just where your brain goes, isn't it? But it's usually always for a good thing. Um, I'm also with Lisa Berryman from Harper Collins, so, um, yes, I, I know how exciting that is. If you get a call from Lisa, it's usually
Lucie Stevens:Yes, it's a thrill.
Tina Strachan:Um, but Lucie, uh, congratulations on the two book deal. I can't wait to hear more from RIP. Uh, then Tobins, and I agree with you, that quaint voice though that you mentioned before, I think that's absolutely what sets it apart and it makes it refreshing big in a way. Um, I feel like there hasn't been much like that lately, and I, I think that's what's been really nice about it as well, um, from my point of view. Anyway, that, um, yeah, something, something different and, you know, I loved it. It was a, it's a lovely journey.
Lucie Stevens:Thanks Tina.
Tina Strachan:so Shara, can you tell us a little bit about, uh, your unique journey to publication? Can you start back from when you first started writing as well?
Shara Curlett:Oh, I'd love to. I, I think my, my one is a typical story. Um, a lot of people, they'll have their first child and then they'll get immersed into the picture book world, or they've wanted to do it their entire life. Um, I had no idea I wanted to do it in my entire life. Uh, basically I just wrote all the time. But, um, it wasn't until I had a, a year where I describe it as the opposite of four weddings and a funeral, and I had an immense amount of grief and I had no idea how to process it. Um, I ran a business at the time, so I got, I was just stuck into that. I, and I just randomly started writing a novel, and in the past, I'd, I'd write a novel to help kind of process things, but I'd never finish it. I'd write like a few chapters, um, except for when I was young, where I'd write 200 page refill pads. Um. But this, this time was quite different. Um, I wrote, I ended up writing two 90,000 word novels. One was a ya and one was an adult sci-fi. Um, and then I just put them away, like I just put them on the desk and continued on with my business. Um, and it was, it was so cathartic for me. It was just, by the time I finished them, I'd kind of processed all my emotions through my words and it, in the end, it was just a deep breath. And I was like, that's, I really needed that. Um, but it kept, it kept going around in my mind. Um, and then the following year, I, I fell pregnant and I just said to my husband. I can't continue this business. It's too full on. I, I think I want to become a writer. And he bless him. He's so, he's so amazingly supportive. He was just like, okay. That was pretty much just that word Okay. With the, with a slight pitch in it.
Tina Strachan:And a little twitch in his eye, like,
Shara Curlett:Yeah, yeah. Um, and so I went through the process of selling my business, um, and then by the time I had my first child, I was rewriting the YA novel into a middle grade because I had felt that the ya wasn't quite the right space for it. Uh, and then I injured myself and I was bedridden for about six weeks with a broken toe and a, um, my, a lower lumbar dys bulge that was quite severe. Um, and. My daughter was only seven weeks old, so we had family support. Yeah, it was just horrendous. So we had family support coming in and I think the moment I started to feel like it was overwhelming me, I basically just wrote, so I was just writing on my phone. Um, fast forward a few years and I'd a few courses through the Australian Writers Center. Um, and I had my son, and then he was born with, uh, what's called Laryngomalacia, which is a floppy larynx basically. So every time I tried to lay him down to go to sleep, he would, he would just get really, really upset. And then when he was sick, he would start to turn blue. So I basically spent the entire first year with him in upright in my arm so he could breathe properly. And I just adapted like. I just, I just wrote through it and I kept myself awake all night because it was, you know, you've got your, your baby and you're scared of that whole bed sharing side of things. And so I just made it safe and I wrote, and that kept me awake. Um, and from there I did a few more courses. And I think the most pivotal part was forming a community. Um, my, I was in the duck pond and I just, I was in the midst of motherhood. Um, and this was just before I had my son. And basically I just put it out there. Are there any moms who would like to do critiques, who don't want any pressure? Because it's hard enough as it is. And I said, basically, if you want to have a critique, you just put your hand up and if you can help, you'll say yes. And it, it was so low key. And there was about 10 or 11 of us, I think. Um. To begin with. And it was just the most beautiful coming together of like-minded people in the same situation. Um, feeling quite lonely prior to that moment because we didn't really have our people. And from there it just, it just grew and now it's just a beautiful small group of people and we share each other on, and it's, it's just amazing. Um, and so I am very terrible at submitting. I would write a novel. I'd submit it once or get it assessed. Um, CYA was a huge part of that. Beck. I did all the things. I invested in an editor. I did. Um, I use beta readers, professional beta readers. Um, and then I, I, um, I would submit it. I'd get a rejection and they're like, and revenge, right? Another novel. So. I think it was, I think it was Stephen King who said something along the lines of, but also many people before him. It takes, um, the first 1 million words you basically throw away. And I love to just say that I tweak that slightly by saying it for me personally, it took a million words to really understand and find my own voice. And now I get it. It's like a light bulb. Once I understood vo voice completely, I was just like, I've got it now. And, um, I was starting to go down the illustration path and get distracted by that. And then I realized, no, I need to focus on my writing. That's my, that's my heart. That's, that's my, um, my sanity when all the world around me is just going crazy. Kids are screaming mum every five seconds. Um, so I use writing as a form of therapy. And so I, I realized at that moment, no, I need to focus on the words. I'm getting distracted and middle grade is my voice. Um. And then I wrote Welcome to Miracle. Um, and I submitted it to an agent and she kind of, she was kind of half on it, but not quite. Um, and then I had an assessment at CYA with LaRay Fosse from Scholastic Australia. And we, you know, when you speak to someone who just seems to get your writing, um, like I was, I was talking with her and she was really positive about it, and I just felt that uplifting moment where, oh, maybe this is it. Maybe this is the one. I knew there was something special about the book when I wrote it. The voice was just on a different level. Um, and then she said she asked for the full, um, and then four months passed and I just wrote it off. So I was like, no, okay. It just didn't work. That's okay. Um, and I just, but within that time, I just started writing a new novel. So. Um, at the conclusion of that four months, I get an email from La LaRay and it's basically saying, uh, I loved it. We'd love to make you an offer. And honestly, like, I think I've said before, I totally dropped my knees ugly, cried on the floor. My little boy came up to me, he was like, mommy, are you okay? And I'm like, they're happy tears. Um, and not that I write for publication, but it was, it was one of those moments where I was just like, this, this just validates all my hard work. Like, yeah. Yeah. It was, it was such a great moment. And working with Scholastic was just incredible. They're just such an amazing team. Um, yeah. And that's, that's my journey.
Tina Strachan:That's an incredible story. Shara, there's so many things that I wanna dip into a little bit there. But one thing that I was hoping that you could explain for listeners is the duck pond, because a lot of that's been very helpful for lots of people. Um, but for our kid that authors who are listening, can you explain, explain what the duck pond is and how people can maybe get on board with that as well.
Shara Curlett:Yes. Well, uh, Jen Stoa has, uh, I think a lot of people know Jen Stoa. Um, she has been in the. Industry for a long time, and she's been such a huge champion of other writers. She's, she has a few courses. She, um, and she formed a group called The Duck Pond, which is, it was just a community to begin with. Um, and then obviously like it's hard as a writer to, to get money. And then she made it a, she made it a group where you subscribe and I fully went along with that because I valued what she did. She brought on master classes and all that kind of thing. Um, sad, sadly, it's wrapped up now. Uh, she, this was her final year and I think, I think she's, yeah, I think she's left just such a huge legacy on the industry. And, and that's, that's not it for her. I think she's diving into illustration and I'm sure like she'll find a way to, to come back. But I, I think that group in particular is because I'm a New Zealander, I don't think I've even mentioned that. Um, I live in Auckland, New Zealand, and I didn't really find a place within. The New Zealand community, or perhaps I didn't search for it. Um, I just found myself in the Australian community, and honestly, it's just like a woman brace. Um, everyone, honestly, everyone in the Kid lit community over there is just so amazing, so kind, so generous and, um, yeah. And, and Jean Stewart embodied that, that was, she was the epitome of that. Yeah.
Tina Strachan:Yeah, well, you know, it, we did find, like we only just met in person on the weekend, didn't we? At the CYA
Shara Curlett:yes. Uh,
Tina Strachan:um, the amount of people that said, are you that thought I was you and you were me,
Shara Curlett:I.
Tina Strachan:and that we really are, are you sure you're not sisters? Oh, it's great. So, you know, you came over here and found your Aussie sister and I'm so glad I found my New Zealand sister.
Shara Curlett:I know, I know. And that, that was totally what it felt like. We've built these relationships online and meeting you on per in person. It was, it was just like, oh my gosh, my, my friend I haven't seen in so long. Yeah. It was so wonderful. And now I've gotta figure out a way to move to the Gold Coast.
Tina Strachan:Yes, please. Well, we are here and ready for you to join us and you can say you're an Aussie writer if you want, but no New Zealand or New Zealand writers are amazing as well.
Natalie Kyriacou:Hi everyone. I am Natalie Kyriacou, and I'm the author of a new nonfiction book called Nature's Last Dance Tales of Wonder in An Age of Extinction. It's out on August 26th, and it's published by a firm press through Simon and Schuster. If you've ever wondered how animal genitalia is uncovering bias in evolutionary theory, or why Australia lost a war to an emu, or how the cure to cancer is in nature and maybe going extinct, well then this book is for you. Nature's last stance is a fierce. Funny and deeply moving odyssey into the power, politics, and chaos of humanity's relationship with nature, where birds, romance, rocks, drug lords, unleash hippos, and worlds collide. This book explores the way nature, shapes, cultures, economies, politics, and societies, and defines the very fabric of human civilization, and it's told through a range of somewhat irreverent, quirky, joyful, sweet, and sometimes tragic stories. Often we think of nature and assume it's a niche topic, something that we're fond of, but perhaps wouldn't wanna read about. This book aims to change that. It charts the romantic lives of wildlife, the rise and fall of empires, the stories of women on the front lines of crisis, who are mobilizing the world through their compassion and the scandalous underbelly of the birdwatching community, which is filled with Shakespearean level drama. Writing Nature's Last Dance was the greatest joy of my life. This book is my whole heart and my whole brain, and I hope you love it. I think it's important. Well, of course I do. I I wrote it, but I hope you do too.
I.
Tina Strachan:So all those stories just go to show how everybody's journey is different. All three of your journeys were different. My journey was different to that. Um, but still lots of similarities. I think everyone spoke of rejections, you know, like just you, so you just have to keep on pushing through and, and I think also like just trusting in what you're writing as well. Um, and, and just, you know, going with that and pushing forward with that. And, there's one constant as well. Another one that I've found between everyone is just putting your work out there and getting it seen. And, and no matter how you do that, and that can lead to rejections in the first place and that's fine, but, you know, conferences keep it VCYA assessments, um, finding agents and putting it out there, um, it's, it's just the only way that you can get your work picked up. Right. So any other major tips from, from the pros here? I'll ask each of you, can anyone give, can you give a tip for our sparring authors who are trying to get their work out there and trying to get it signed? And then maybe something for our debut authors, because there's, you know, we've got a debut crew 2025, we've got another five months left of the year. So, uh, with people's books coming out and everyone's always in that leader. We, and we've all been there, you're so desperate to find out what's actually happening, what should I do, what are the do's and don'ts?'cause everyone just wants to make the most of it. And, you know, there's a 2026 crew now. Probably a 2027 crew started as well. Um, so because like we just spoke about that really long lead time, right? Um, so Shara, I'll start with you. What tips have you got for our listeners?
Shara Curlett:Um, yeah, I was thinking about this. I was asked this at and, uh, ran out of time, so I had to give a couple of like throwaway do this and that. But um, and this may be controversial, but there's a big thing on luck in the industry. Uh, it's just, it, it was, it was lucky. I real deal with that because, uh, every single one of us works so hard and we do the work, we put ourselves in front of the right people. Um, and I've been going for like nine years now, uh, and I've only just got my first deal and then I just got my second deal. Um, so I really wanna remove the word luck from the industry. I think it's, it's definitely a matter of timing sometimes and getting in front of the right people. Um, but I think it's important to. To embrace the whole, the whole picture, which is you do the work, you put yourself in front of the right person and you will get rejections. And it's how you handle those rejections. Do you wallow or do you just keep pushing forward? Um, that, that's what I think personally. And, and the other thing is just to find your tribe. I think when I found my people, it just transformed every, everything. Suddenly you've got people to bounce your work off. You've got people to share the ups and downs with you really truly celebrate each other's successes. Um. And I think that's a, it helps for, from a mental perspective, and it also helps from an encouragement perspective as well. Um, we've got a few friends shifting from picture book to long, long form, um, and they're a bit intimidated by the words, and I just, I just keep saying, just focus on the character, focus on the heart. It's just remember why you write. Yeah. Um, and for debuts, I, I think, um, we've got such a great group this year. Everyone is so amazing and all the books are so incredibly incredible and incredibly different. It's, it's just such a joy to see them all coming out and celebrating each other's successes. Um, I just, I just think remember why you write, like, just remember why you write throughout the entire process always. Yeah. That would be mine.
Tina Strachan:Yeah, they're really good tips and I agree with you about the, the luck thing. Um, yeah, I think that term gets confused with Right, right author, right publisher, right time, you know, it's, yeah. Don't you agree? Like it's, and, and maybe that's lucky that you just, it, you happen to, you know, like I say with my, uh, um, conversations with Lisa, when I first met her talking about a YA novel, um, it wasn't maybe luck, but it. You know, we could have hung up the phone at a particular point in time, but we didn't. I kept, you know, chatting and I kept pushing her to keep chatting.'cause we're on the, I've got, I've got Lisa Berryman on the phone. Keep going. Don't let her go. Um, you know, but, you know, could, and maybe that's just a decision that you make. Um, maybe it's luck, I don't know. But it's, um, I don't think I would've probably signed with her in the end had I not gone on and had that conversation. That turned into a lot more. Um, yeah,
Shara Curlett:also, you've gotta be the right person that she gels with, right? It it, yeah. It's a connection thing. And if you connect, you talk longer. Yeah.
Tina Strachan:Connection. We talk, we spoke about that a lot. There was a lot about that at CYAA conference that was on the weekend and we had a really big success panel and um, I think there was like 13 successes from this year. Um, so, and everybody in a different way spoke of connection. Even if they didn't say the words connection, there was some kind of connection happening in their, um, journey to success through CYA. So that's really important. Okay. Lucie, what are your top tips for aspiring authors and debut Authors?
Lucie Stevens:So I think for aspiring authors, one of the most important things is to commit to an attitude of continuous learning. I think so. Um, so I do a lot of manuscript assessments as part of my professional work, and I do have quite a lot of repeat clients. And what I often see is that. There hasn't been a lot of kind of learning happening between one manuscript and the next manuscript. And I think that sometimes this can actually really hold people back. So people who've got a lot of potential but maybe haven't sort of realized that they've still got quite a lot to learn. And I know from my own experience to, um, when I look back at that very first novel that did end up getting rejected, I can now see why, you know, like despite the fact that I had won development awards and I had secured an agent, I can really see why that novel didn't get published. Um, and in some respects I'm kind of glad that it didn't Now, you know, I mean, of course I would've had the benefit of working with an editor, um, to improve it. And there were some things that I just wasn't capable of, of fixing. It was, uh, I was trying to write something that I didn't have the skills to write essentially. But I think it's, yeah, really important to remember that you don't just kind of become a writer. And even the act of writing, while it's extremely important, it needs to come in tandem with a lot of learning as well. And that means becoming really familiar with the conventions of the genre that you are trying to write. Um, paying attention to the books that are being published and learning from them by reading them closely, um, joining your local groups that are available in your area or online to learn from the people around you as well. So I just think it's, yeah, really important to remember that it's not just something that magically happens, that you actually have to work really hard to learn the skill and to master it as well, to master the craft. So, yeah, I, I know I wasted a lot of time in my younger years. Um, not really understanding genre conventions properly. And I, I look back and I can see how I was so captivated by just the joy of writing, which obviously is really, really important as well, but going on tangents that really didn't serve the narrative and, um, sort of getting very captivated by the process instead of thinking a little bit more strategically about it. So I couldn't have saved myself a lot of time if, if someone had given me the advice that I'm sort of putting out there now, I suppose, um, in theory, who knows? But, um, and I think, like Shara said, um, for people with their first novels coming out in the near future, um, one of the best things I did actually was join the local, my local local CBCA community. They are such a wonderful group. I am so humbled by their generosity and support. I've made some great friends who have been amazing mentors to me as well. So it's been so wonderful, um, to be part of that community. And I think, yeah, it's, it's great too because it's not just writers who are also, or, um, illustrators. You are connecting with booksellers and librarians and teacher librarians, so it's really a wealth of knowledge and experience. So I highly recommend people get involved in their, in their local CBCA community.
Tina Strachan:Yeah, no, very important. The community, it's, it comes up every time, doesn't it? Finding a tribe like Shara said as well. Um, absolutely. Um, I really love what you say about conventions with writing though, because everybody who listens to the podcast knows that I, you know, I sort of say that I plot, but again, like I, I write, I'm probably like You, Lucie. I'm a little bit of both and I'm probably a lot of planning, but I, like I do that, sorry, afterwards as like a check. Like I love that editing process and I love just checking to make sure that everything sort of hits the mark before I go any further with it. And a lot of people, yeah, they, they're not even aware that there's particular conventions, um, in some of these genres. And, and that is something that you can find out and it's, and it all makes sense when you read it. You're like, and you think about the stories that you've read in that genre when you look at those conventions, um. It just makes sense. And you think about a book that you've read recently and you go, oh yeah, I, I see that point and I see that where that happened, and I see where that happened, and I see where that happened. And then you start to realize it's in all those well-written books that you've read. Um, and it's not, I think, yeah, people get a bit scared of losing that magic of writing and just freely having it. Right. And some people can just do it automatically, you know, come that comes out and they're very privileged to be able to just innately know where things go and when and why. But it's, it's such an important tool to go back to, even if it's just a check. Right.
Lucie Stevens:Yeah, exactly. And I think for me, to be honest, when I wrote, um, the first draft of ROP, nanny Tobins, I have to say that, um, and this was a highly unusual experience for me, that in the first instance, at least from a structural point of view, there was still a lot of work and development that had to happen. But, um, all of those sort of conventions, all of the mandatory scenes just happened to be there in the right place at the right time. And I almost couldn't believe it. It was like, and I, I kept thinking it's Sarah STIs. She somehow infused me with this amazing magic that she possesses, but actually. I, I think what it was is it was all of those years of learning, sitting so hardwired in my subconscious that when I sat down to write, it felt very intuitive about when I needed to turn a scene and when I needed to build to a climax. Um, and when I needed a moment of sort of like deep emotional resonance happening. So I really feel like, um, the, the learning of the conventions is the, is the structure and then all of the magic and intuitive stuff happens around that. And it's, it's almost like it's, it's there to support you. All that learning is there to support you and it actually frees you in the moment when you're sitting down to write because you're not having to think so much about it. It's sitting there already present. So that's why I'm just such a big, as you can tell, advocate for like learning, just keep learning and then eventually it kind of all organically comes together, hopefully
Tina Strachan:Yeah, and reading too, right? If you read a lot, that's it. Just, is it that format and that flow, it just sort of sits there as well because you know, you just innately learn it and so you know how it flows.'cause you know what you've read and you just can write from what you've learned. Um,
Lucie Stevens:like the rhythm of it sits there with you and you get a feel for how it needs to move.
Tina Strachan:Mm-hmm. Yep. No, absolutely. Such good advice. And Sandy, what have you got for us?
Sandy Bigna:Yeah, look, I'd struggle, um. Agree with Lucie's advice about learning and your words about reading, and especially reading in your chosen genre. So, um, for me, I made sure I read a lot of verse novels, um, just to get that idea of rhythm and, and the flow and the, and the lyrical language. I also read, uh, poetry and then I also think it's important to read outside of, uh, your chosen genre as well, just to, um, you know, that can give you fresh ideas and, uh, ways of writing that you can incorporate into your own writing. And I think it's, um, it's just really important, like Lucie said. To hone your craft. And you can do that by attending workshops, uh, attending conferences. You can do writing courses online. There's so many wonderful choices. You don't even have to leave your house if you don't want to. You could do it in your own time. Um, so I think it's important to embrace all those learning opportunities. Uh, like we've also said, find your tribe, find your people. This might be slightly controversial, but I would say, okay, I love social media. It's not for everyone. Um, it can be a real time waster and there's a lot of advice about sort of not being on social media or kind of limiting your time on it. But for me, uh, when I joined, uh, that Bookstagram community, that's where I made my connections. Um, which of course you can do in person as well through, through your CBCA groups, but. Sometimes some people find it actually quite intimidating to turn up to these groups in person. You know, especially when you don't know anyone and you feel like a bit of an imposter. You know? It's that whole imposter syndrome. Like, I'm not really an author, but you know, I think for some social media is a way to connect with people without having to, um, meet face to face initially if, if you don't feel comfortable to do that. So you can, um, yeah, foster your own sort of communities that way as well and get to know people, get to, that's how I've met so many people who I feel like are my friends. Um, we may not have met in real life, but you feel like you have and you have this whole supportive community around you. I would say try not to spend all your time on social media. You have to actually. Do the writing as well, of course. Um, so it's, it's just about whatever's, whatever works for you and your personality. Um, so yeah, so basically read a lot, lots of workshops, find your people.
Tina Strachan:Yep. Yep. Very important. Again, finding tribe and community. Right. And whether that's online or in person, it's all very important. Um, and the social media thing, uh, at CYA on the weekend, uh, during the publishers and agents panel, uh, you know, that was brought up. I think it's brought up every year about whether someone needs to be on social media. And I think it was kind of categorically. Well, look, it can, it's definitely gonna help you and not through the way that some people think, like, who aren't on social media or are really scared of it. Like, it's another way to contact you, a really easy way to contact you and to put your work out there as well. And you know, the advice given was if you are scared of it or you just don't like posting about yourself, then just kind of, you know. What do you like doing? Do you like cats and do you like reading cool post about post your book that you're reading at the moment and post funny things that your cat does or just the picture of your cat or a book and the cat together. You know, just, you know, is it food? Do you love food, post food? You know, just, just, just whatever. Kind of, just throw some stuff on there. And they did say it does sort of, it does show that you're willing to, you know, promote a little bit.'cause you know, we've spoken about it a lot on the podcast. You do have to do some promotion yourself, of your book, um, when it is published. So, uh, yeah, it just kind of shows that you are serious about it, I think was the words that we use. That you're professional, you're serious about it because it is like, kind of like getting a, um, starting a business, isn't it? You need a way for people to contact you and, and see what you've got an offer. Yeah.
Sandy Bigna:Absolutely.
Tina Strachan:Alright, ladies. Well, it has been incredible chatting to your, and I don't want to leave. I, I have so many other questions. I, I write when you'll speak and I put these little like stars, like ask more about that. But honestly, we could be here for three hours chatting about all the things that I've written down. Maybe we'll have to do a, a part two to it. But, um, yeah, so thank you so much for coming on the book deal podcast.
Sandy Bigna:Oh, thank you so much for
Lucie Stevens:having us. It's been great.
Sandy Bigna:It has lots of fun.
Tina Strachan:Good luck with your second books.
Sandy Bigna:Thank you. I need it.
Tina Strachan:You do not.
Lucie Stevens:Good luck with your third Tina.
Sandy Bigna:Yes, Tina.
Tina Strachan:Thanks.
Lucie Stevens:Amazing.
Tina Strachan:Thank you for listening to the book Deal podcast. We're able to bring you these weekly writerly chats because of our amazing patrons. Join the TPD family by becoming a member of our Patreon community at patreon com slash the book deal podcast. And if you love the pod, please give us a rating or review. And don't forget to follow us on
Speaker 6:Instagram and.