The Book Deal
Motivation and inspiration for emerging writers, helping them pave their own pathway to publishing success.
The Book Deal
Angie Faye Martin on writing layered stories, Indigenous representation and how to prepare for publicity and book promos
In this episode of the Book Deal podcast, host Natasha Rai dives into the debut novel 'Melaleuca' by Angie Faye Martin. Angie, an Australian writer of Kooma, Kamilaroi, and European heritage, shares the journey of her career transition from policy roles to writing. She offers an elevator pitch of 'Melaleuca,' a gripping crime novel involving Aboriginal detective Renee Taylor, and explores the themes of violence against Aboriginal women, sovereignty, and intergenerational trauma. Angie outlines her writing process, including her use of dual timelines, the influence of personal experiences, and the importance of layered storytelling. She also gives insights into her publishing journey, mentorship, and the role of patience and enjoyment in writing. The episode concludes with advice for emerging writers, emphasizing the importance of research, patience, and maintaining a balanced life.
00:00 Welcome to The Book Deal Podcast
00:56 Introducing Angie Faye Martin
01:48 Discussing Melaleuca: The Elevator Pitch
05:10 The Inspiration Behind Melaleuca
14:08 Angie's Writing Journey
17:34 The Publishing Process and Mentorship
25:13 Kasey Whitelaw's New Book Announcement
26:50 Cover Design and Serendipity
27:48 Signing the Contract
29:21 Promotions and Public Speaking
33:52 Writing Routine and Balancing Life
35:14 Planning and Writing the Sequel
42:03 Tips for Emerging Writers
47:23 Final Thoughts and Reflections
Join our Patreon community for less than the cost of a coffee per month and support the pod! Your contribution will go to directly paying our sound producer, Brogan, and to help us bring you the conversations with industry professionals you love.
Follow The Book Deal podcast on Instagram The Book Deal podcast (@the_book_deal_podcast) • Instagram photos and videos
You can find out more about Tina, Madeleine and Natasha and follow their journeys here:
Tina Strachan (@td_strachan) • Instagram photos and videos
Tina Strachan children's book author
Madeleine Cleary (@madeleineclearywrites) • Instagram photos and videos
Madeleine Cleary | Author
Natasha Rai (@raiwriting) • Instagram photos and videos
Natasha Rai | Author | Mentor
If you want to stay in the know, sign up to Madeleine, Tina and Natasha's newsletters for the latest news first.
Madeleine: Subscribe here...
This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books. We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal. So no matter what stage of writing you're at, we've got you covered. I'm Tina Strachan. I'm Madeleine Cleary. And I'm Natasha Rai. And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors one deal at a time. The Book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners, the land and waters, which it's recorded on. And pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
Natasha Rai:Angie Faye Martin is a writer and editor of Kooma, Kamilaroi and European Heritage with a Bachelor of Public Health from the Queensland University of Technology and a master's of Anthropology from the Australian National University. Angie has spent many years working in policy roles in state and federal government before launching Versed Writings in 2019. Her work has been published in Meanjin, Garland, The Saltbush Review and The Rocks Remain. She is a member of the First Nations Australia Writers Network and accredited with the Institute of Professional Editors. Good morning, Angie. Faye Martin. Welcome to the book Dear podcast.
Angie Faye Martin:Thank you so much for having me, Natasha. I'm delighted to be here.
Natasha Rai:It's great to have you. So, um, we're here to talk a little bit about your debut novel Melaleuca, as well as your publishing journey. Um, so is it okay if we start with you giving us a bit of an elevator pitch from Melaleuca?
Angie Faye Martin:Yeah, sure thing. Melaleuca is about, uh, detective Renee Taylor, who is working down in Brisbane. She's got an amazing career. Uh, she's worked hard to get where she is. Um, she's quite determined, quite fierce. She's aboriginal and she's struggled against certain things, um, in her life to get where she is. And then she gets a call from her mom, and her mom is. Uh, suffering from debilitating arthritis in her hands. And they're struggling. She's struggling to get by. Um, and they, her mom lives in the country town where, um, Renee grew up. It was just the two of them. And, uh, her mom can't find a carer, and so she asked Renee to come home and. And help take care of things around the home. Renee being the dutiful daughter that she is reluctantly agrees and arranges a secondment with work. So she's um, kind of demoted, I suppose, from a detective back to being a comfortable, and she goes back to Garga, the little country town where she grew up. Um, it opens on day two and Renee's. Kind of bored, a bit frustrated. She's helped her mom all weekend around the house and she gets to the office early and then she gets a call from a resident. A resident has been down walking by the creek and has found the body of a woman. And Renee, um, fires into action, goes down. Um, and Renee, uh, nobody knows who this young aboriginal woman is. Renee's assigned to the investigation and, um. Ask around town who, who knows her. Um, no one has reported her missing. And so it becomes quite a perplexing case. Renee is assigned to it. And then as she digs deeper into what may have happened to this, um, young woman, she discovers a link to the past. And so Melaleuca is based on dual timelines set in. The year 2000 and then 1965 where, um, two women went missing. And yeah, obviously the cases are linked. So that's Melaleuca in a nutshell.
Natasha Rai:Thank you. So having read it, um, I absolutely loved it and I found myself. Flying through it, um, because it was so gripping and, um, I don't read a lot of crime on fiction and this just grabbed me and what really struck me was there are so many different elements and I'm gonna be very careful'cause I don't wanna give anything away'cause there are a few twists and turns in it. Um, but I was just curious about how they all kind of came together for you in the writing. I guess the first thing I want to ask about is, this is a story about Aboriginal women and, and I know in your author's note you've talked about, you know, violence against aboriginal women and violence in indigenous communities sometimes and how it's portrayed. What was your starting point? Was that, was that your starting point or did you, did that come into the mix as you started writing?
Angie Faye Martin:Yeah, great question. So maybe I'll go back a little bit. So. Starting point. Very good question. I actually started writing Melaleuca about 10 years ago. A lot was happening for me. Um, and I mean, quite a few readers say there is a lot going on in it, and that's probably where I was at in life 10 years ago. I was in my early thirties. I was living in Melbourne, um, and. I was working for the public service and I had followed, you know, my parents' directions and got a sensible job, and I was enjoying it to a certain degree. I'd studied public health and then I did my master's in anthropology and development studies. I really wanted to serve the community and I, um, I love the intellectual side of things as well, writing briefs and analyzing policy, but I found that it wasn't enough for me. I felt like there was just something bursting inside me. And I remember going for long walks with my husband and probably driving him crazy. Just, um, a bit of a chatter box and thinking through all these things. Um, I was also reading crime at the time. I was reading a few crime thrillers. And struggling to process a lot of my thoughts. And I thought as I was walking around Carnegie Dunn in Melbourne, I was picking off Melaleuca bark, paper bark and starting to think about personalities and complexity and the layers of things. And I think I just said to my husband, maybe I could put all of this in a, in a crime story. That would be so awesome. Um, like maybe that could be my canvas just to explore. Um, the complexities around some of those themes that you talked about being. Um, political determination and sovereignty and, um, violence against Aboriginal women. And there's a bit of addiction in here as well, like helping family members through addiction and mental health struggles. I mean, in my early thirties, I felt like I had a lot weighing on me and when the idea of, you know, the paper bark in Melaleuca came to me, I thought, yeah, I'm gonna do that. And I went home and, um, started jotting down ideas and feeling. Just an amazing sense of relief come over me. I actually was a smoker back then, and I remember feeling like for the first time in ages, I don't feel like I need to have a cigarette. Like this is just giving me so, such a wonderful sense of relief. And then I got obsessed with the plot. And the plot is a little bit inspired by, I've talked about this previously. This is probably the, like if I had to pinpoint. An inspiration. It is, um, the abandonment of that my father felt when he reached out to his biological, um, grandfather. And I didn't realize that that was something that had stayed with me. Um, I found out when, when I was about eight years old, I watched my dad be rejected by his. Biological grandfather when he reached out to him, um, in a moment of, you know, bit of loneliness, I think he reached out to his biological grandfather who was a wealthy white man down in, in Brisbane. And to see him get rejected made an impression on me at the age of eight. And I wondered why did that, you know, man, not wanna know our family. Why did he not wanna help dad out? And I guess as I went through life, you know, this idea of. Uh, men abandoning their children or just having children that they don't want to, to, um, acknowledge, um, stayed with me. So that kind of was the, the central kind of element to the plot. And then I went from there just grabbing all the themes that I was wrestling with in life identity, especially, uh, which shows up a lot in Renee's struggles just as a character.
Natasha Rai:Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And that struck me. Um, and you know, my other job in addition to being a writer is a counsellor. So I work a lot with people experiencing grief, and that was something that came through in Melaleuca as well. Mm-hmm. The kind of the imprints that we get through our families. Um, and it just struck me just now when you were talking about your dad, um, that imprint of, you know, being pushed aside or unacknowledged. And that's something that I, it feels to me personally as that we hold as a country this unacknowledged violence that was perpetrated on indigenous and aboriginal peoples. Like there is that kind of echo in this, in these women's lives.
Angie Faye Martin:Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, we often. We're starting to refer to it more as intergenerational trauma. Um, but I think some people in the aboriginal community don't relate so much to those words. I think it is a profound sense of grief and also just a bit of a. Uh, overwhelming confusion. It's like, why are these feelings coming up for me? But it's interesting that you mentioned grief as well, because, um, I don't think I've talked about this before, but I did start writing Melaleuca around the time that my grandmother passed away and that, um, it was quite sudden she lived a very rich and fulfilling life, but she did pass away suddenly from a heart attack and, um. The character of Josh is actually based a little bit on that and Josh loses his mom. This isn't a spoiler. That happens quite early. Um, in, in the story and I was also wrestling with, um, you'll see in Josh's character, he. Feels like he's not processing the grief of his, his mother. And at the time I felt like I couldn't fully process the grief of losing my grandmother because I was wrestling with all of these other things going on. And I felt even a little bit of guilt about that in the early drafts. Josh was a much bigger character. Um, but slowly as I delved more into Renee, Renee became more central. But I had many more chapters on Josh in the first few drafts.
Natasha Rai:Yeah, and definitely, yeah. And also there's the, this echo of grief. Um, and I'm gonna choose my words carefully so I don't give anything away, but in the past, in the 1965 timeline, what really, uh, what really spoke to me and touched me was the deep sense of love in, in those families. Even, even when we're describing one of the girls, is a bit wild. It, it just spoke to me of youthful exuberance and, and, and wanting to have fun. Wanting to experience this life that's feels small and, and the way we judge that, especially putting on this lens of indigenous kind of population or, I don't know, there's something around you have to be a certain way, but there was just so much love in these families and so much acceptance that just really spoke to me.
Angie Faye Martin:That was really important for me. Um, when I was drafting Melaleuca often we're hit with just overwhelming poverty porn and you know, uh, when you read some accounts of Aboriginal history, it is violent, it is awful, and there is a place for that. But when I grew up, there was always an effort amongst my Aboriginal family to. Have fun joke around. Some of our humor can be pretty dark, but I guess that's just the way we deal with things coming together and yawning and, um, growing up you are aware that people see Aboriginal people as being full of despair and at times we definitely are.'cause of what we've experienced. But we do also have a, you know, fun times, a lot of good times and, um. When, so the 1960s timeline, which is really where you see the community coming together, that's based on my dad's experience of growing up on the Yuba, which is a fringe camp in was a fringe camp back then. Um, and. When I hear stories based on dad's childhood experience growing up on the fringe camp, they are full of poverty and hunger, but heaps of games, childhood games playing by the creek and Yabby. And I wanted to shine a light just on the humanity that existed in those communities, how much they loved each other and cared for each other fiercely. You know, and that's how we've remained, uh, resilient. Um, people. That's how we're still here today. We just fiercely care for each other.
Natasha Rai:Hmm. And that came through so strongly for me, but, you know, I'm, it's such an interest, like all these beautiful layers that you've, that you've written into your novel and I'm, and, and crime is the vehicle that you've used to kind of highlight all of that, was it more than kind of, you said you earlier that you were reading a lot of crime at the time. How, how did that vehicle come about?
Angie Faye Martin:Like is it because you're, honestly, I didn't crime reader or, uh, look, I was reading a lot of crime at the time, but I don't think I read everything right. It was just, that was what I was reading. I was reading Gillian Flynn and I liked the suspenseful kind of page turning genre, and I wanted to write a story that I enjoyed reading, but I don't think I set out too deliberately to write crime. I feel like. It became a crime novel, um, because of, you know, I had a detective, I had a crime, and it became a vehicle for me to explore these issues. And over time I did play into that genre.'cause I realized it worked better. Um, it was what readers expected, and I used those conventional kind of cliffs. What, no, what do you call it, cliff hangers and hooks that I was reading about in my craft books. Mm-hmm. But I do feel like Melaleuca is not strictly in the crime genre. I think it could be general fiction or historical fiction. You know, it's, and, and all books are, you know, like all books kind of, um, overlap into other genres that that's true.
Natasha Rai:And at the same time, you've managed something quite extraordinary with yours in that there are all these flesh tight characters and I really like the pacing of the story in the two thousands. Like it's only set over a few days once the investigation gets going. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I, it felt both fast and also, um, really this lovely unfolding of the links or potential connection between the past. And I was just, I was full of admiration of how you navigated that and how you wrote that so beautifully.
Angie Faye Martin:I think I have to thank my mentor a little bit. Um, I often found those slow bits actually really easy and enjoyable to write. So a lot of the slow bits I think are to do with Renee and her mom, just domestic scenes where they're just talking, you know, nonsense in the house and or Renee collecting eggs out the back. My mentor said, no, this is really good. Like, I'm enjoying these things. I'm like, I feel like I'm just playing around. Like I don't feel like this is serious writing. Um, but she encouraged me to keep pursuing it. And so I did. And then over time when I read it back to myself, I realized that there was a nice flow happening between the, the intensity of the investigation, um, and also some of the heavier themes where. Quite confronting things happen and then you just, uh, return to this domestic, not tranquility, but like playfulness. And I thought for the reader it was a nice ebb and flow. Um, definitely. And it was also just fun. I just liked writing. You know, Renee and how she gets along with her colleagues at the station. And I think it's also how country folk just banter a little bit. You know, you just, that's how you get by and like you just talk a bit of nonsense, talk a bit of crap, and, you know, pass the time. And I wanted to bring that out and yeah, in the story as well.
Natasha Rai:So you've mentioned a mentor, so let's, um, go into your publishing journey. So 10 years ago you had this idea. And you started writing something, was that your first foray into creative writing?
Angie Faye Martin:It was for a long time. Like I used to muck around when I was a kid and stuff. Um, and then I kept reading, um, always reading a lot, but I was just doing academic writing. And then, so this burst of an idea came through, uh, it was called the Paper Bark Trees at first, 10 years ago. And then. I kept going with it just on the side. I was quite obsessed with it, but I didn't have much time'cause I was working full time. And so I just read craft books, play around with a few paragraphs, share it with a few close friends. Um, my husband and they, they told me later they were relieved that they could tell me it was okay and it wasn't complete crap. Um, because they would've told me if it was crap too. They're, they're good friends. I trust them. And so they get, like, they said, yeah, go on, keep going with this, you know. And I did. And then I, um, looked at a few competitions.'cause I thought, I can't really do this just by myself. It would be cool if I could win one of these competitions where you get a mentor for a little bit. Mm-hmm. Um, so I looked into those. I did, um, I did get rejected from a few, but they, they were great, um, competitions in that they still gave me a recommendation for how I could improve it.
Natasha Rai:Okay, so it's a short letter, and I know it's a while ago now, but do you remember what they were and if you had to submit the full manuscript or did you, was it excerpts?
Angie Faye Martin:Um, so I think it was just excerpts. I think I submitted two. Two, yeah. But I don't wanna say which ones that were, they were Australian.
Natasha Rai:Okay. Okay. But were they specifically kind of crime related or just general adult?
Angie Faye Martin:Just general adult fiction. Okay. But I remember I got like a two page summary report with a little bit of a prompt where I could take it. And so it was still helpful. It was excellent. It was like a disappointing, I was heartbroken at the time, but then I was like, no, I'll keep going with it. And then, um, I got my long service, leave three months and. Was excited'cause I could devote a lot more time to it. And then I found the Harper Collins First Nations commercial fiction fellowship, which required a 70,000 word draft. So I set my goals on that was like, I'm gonna, you know, get this story into shape, get it to 70,000 words. That was back in 2019 and I was successful in that competition. And as part of the award, I was assigned a mentor for 12 months. And just as I was assigned that, um, I went over to Adelaide and met my mentor Amy Matthews over there at Adelaide Writer's Week. And then, um, the COVID lockdown started so lucky I got in that quick trip over there, I could meet her in person and then came home and was able to work. Under her kind of tutelage for 12 months. It was, I was also closely connected to the publisher at Harper Collins, Joe Mackay, who I've continued to work with now. Um, and so that process was incredible. Mm-hmm.
Natasha Rai:And can I just ask something about that? So with your mentorship, were you working on different elements like structure, um, characterization, like those kind of broad strokes to get it into a tighter form?
Angie Faye Martin:Everything. Yeah. So she would do like a full um, read through. And then provide me with like a bit of a manuscript assessment of how I could improve it overall. She also did point out what I was doing well, which I found, you know, encouraging. So she was always like, yeah, your dialogue is great. Oh, thanks. Never even really studied that. That was just something that came naturally. Point of view I struggled with, and so I had to do a few extra courses on point of view. Um, I was head hopping, so getting in too many characters heads and so that was the weakness for me. Um. Pacing was something that I was okay at, but I really needed to improve given the crime genre. So I read lots of suspense craft books and um, hooks and cliffhangers and, you know, entered the scene late and leave early, that kind of thing. Um. But Amy really met me where I was at in my journey, because I already had pretty decent vocab and everything. I've, you know, had a master's in academic writing, but there was some real basics, like point of view that I just didn't get at all. Mm-hmm. Um, so it was yeah, tailored to what I needed. So Amy, um, read a few drafts, gave me feedback on how I could improve it, and then after that year, I was, um, brought over to Joe Joe mackay at Harper Collins and given more in depth kind of manuscript, um, manuscript assessments From there. Finally got the contract in, sorry, go on.
Natasha Rai:I was just gonna say this would've been what, 2021, right?
Angie Faye Martin:2021. Yep. Kept, kept working at it. Um. I got the contract and that was 2023 I think. What are we up to now? 2025. Yeah, 2023. And then it was pretty much, it was all done for a long time, to be honest. Like, and then it's a matter of, um, choosing the right publishing window. So the publishers put a lot of thought into when to release the book. Um.
Natasha Rai:Yes, I understand that because I had the same, I signed my contract in 2023 and mine came out 2025, so I know, yeah, yeah. That sense of time. But when you won the uh, prize. Was the publication like an option or was it a guaranteed thing, like you do a year's mentorship and then...
Angie Faye Martin:No. Okay. It wasn't, and I was naive, like probably now in hindsight, I probably look, would look around for an award. That guaranteed publication. No, I basically just hustled. I kept hustling. I didn't even really understand the publishing world. I just thought, oh yeah, they seem like, uh, really. Um, professional people, like experts in their field. I wanted to work with the best. So I looked up both their profiles and I was like, yeah, these people know what they're doing. I didn't really look into the ins and outs of whether the award involved a contract. Um, I don't regret it, but it did become a little bit of a hustle towards the end. It was like, you know, when do I get a contract? When can I put the book out? That became a little bit hard at the end.
Natasha Rai:So you sounds like you had a lot of confidence in Melaleuca at by that point to kind of. Uh, well, yeah, you said hustle, but you know, to be had that confidence to keep going because I know what I was like back then. I was terrified of everyone. I don't know why, but, um, and a lot of emerging writers, you know, they, they get really nervous about pushing, pushing themselves forward or asking for things.
Angie Faye Martin:I guess it was probably my pathway into it because I had, you know, won this 2019 fellowship and then it was like, okay, so what now? Like I've put in seven years or so at that point of time into this manuscript.
Natasha Rai:Um, yeah. Yeah. Does that fellowship still exist?
Angie Faye Martin:No, I think they only ran it once. Yeah.
Natasha Rai:Oh, wow. Okay. Well, you were right time, right place. Yeah, yeah.
Kasey Whitelaw:Hello, listeners. I'm Kasey Whitelaw. I'm the author of Flute and my new picture book, the Great Shark Egg Case Hunt. I'm a debut author and a marine biologist. I'm so thrilled to tell you about my new book, the Great Shark Egged Case Hunt, which is inspired by a real life citizen science project. It's illustrated by Sylvia Morris and published by CSIRO Publishing. Did you know some sharks and their close relatives lay eggs inside the case? A baby shark grows until it's ready to wriggle its way out. Leaving the empty egg case behind empty egg cases can wash up on beaches all year round. So join our young citizen scientists as they search for shark egg cases. Your journey around the world, stopping off in places like England. Australia, South Africa and Icy Alaska. But remember, look closely some shark eggs are easily camouflaged. The great Shark egg case hunt brings science into children's everyday experiences, turning a fun day at the beach into a citizen science adventure. It's a story, a field guide, and a fun extension activity all in one. So come along, you can be an egg case hunter too. The great shark. A case hunt is available now.
Natasha Rai:So how much, um, was the word, how much, uh, input did you have into the cover?'cause the cover is stunning.
Kasey Whitelaw:Um, so none. Well, they asked me for a few ideas. I sent through a few photos, um, and I thought. It would be like a outback landscape, like silos or something. But when I saw it, I was absolutely blown away. Uh, I loved it. I'm sure I could have, you know, asked for changes if they had given it to me, and I don't like it. But I told them from the beginning, I trust that you're the experts in, um, cover design and yeah. So when I saw the beautiful, um, blues and gr blues and greens was what I secretly wanted, but I didn't pass on that um. Requirement or anything.'cause I thought it would be beautiful if it came back in Blues and greens and then it did. And I thought, oh, this is serendipitous, it's meant to be. Um, but yeah, Darren Holt, who did all of Trent Dalton's books, designed this one for me and it's actually the, um, crows and Nest, uh, waterfalls, which is just outside of Toowoomba, and that's what Crystal Ponds is based on in Melaleuca.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. Gorgeous. Yeah. Yeah. So you signed the contract. Um, how was that? That must have been, I dunno, a culmination of everything you've been working on.
Angie Faye Martin:Right. It was a blur. I remember being in Spain actually, and. Because my husband's Spanish and you know, life is crazy. Ooh. I was thinking my mom came over for a visit and I got this contract and I remember thinking, whoa, this just got serious. This is awesome. This is great. This is what I wanted. But then also thinking there are so many words in this document that I do not understand. Um, so I got a lawyer to look at it. Mm-hmm. Um, paid for my own lawyer. I looked up. An expert in, um, what do they call it in the arts, like film and television, entertainment, law. And yeah, he looked over it to, for me, I did heap of research into all of the different royalties and everything, um, and signed it off and sent it away. And I think, yeah, it was, it was a nice experience, but I still felt like I, there was quite a bit of work ahead of me. I felt like it was just the beginning and it was true. Something in me was like, this is just. You know, the beginning of a very long journey, because next comes the, uh, the promotions and the, uh, publicity. So finding the contract was, that was actually quite nerve wracking, but finding the contract, I know people actually celebrate with champagne and everything. For me, it was like, this is serious. I felt like this is a new journey beginning. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Which is exciting. Exciting but scary. Yeah.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. Yeah. I get that. And also, um, you mentioned about promotions. So your book, so you signed in 2023 and Melaleuca came out in June. Yeah. Beginning of June. So how has it been? How was it in the lead up? What was your experience like?
Angie Faye Martin:I mean, I was pretty nervous leading up to the release of Melaleuca. Not so much about the quality of the book.'cause I feel like I put enough work into it and I read enough to know, like I don't wanna. Sound like a big nole, but I kind of felt like it was a good book. It was more the public speaking and the publicity, and I don't really like that, you know, natural. I, I'm starting to enjoy it now that I've done enough, but I was so scared and so Ed by everything, I tried to make it as enjoyable as possible by doing the things that I like. So I bought new lipstick and new, new heels and new clothes and just tried to make it fun because I was like, this is gonna be a big part of my life now. So. Um, I try to embrace it as much as possible, but yeah, I actually work with a performance coach and we, she helps me with, you know, that external facing things. So little techniques to, you know, I don't know if you notice, but whenever I do an event, I wear my headband.'Cause that's kind of like my external per persona. And then when I come back into creative writing, I feel like I shift gears and I, I've talked to quite a few writers who are similar to that. You kind of have to put a lot of energy and even though it's fun getting out and talking about your book, for us writers, most writers, I think we enjoy our little caves and coming back and exploring and having that time to go into our own little worlds. Um, and that's. What I'm, where I'm at now is trying to balance the two, so figure out the right portion of my weekly schedule that I can dedicate to the external stuff, the publicity and the promotion, and how much time I need to unwind, and then how much time I can actually write. I'm not one of those writers who can, um, well, for now I might change, but just right on the go, like in the, when they're dropping the kids off at school or I need. Like my office and focus, I don't even write very well on a cafe or anything. So I'm a bit of, I'm a bit boring like that. No, I, I'm.
Natasha Rai:I'm, yeah. I don't, I can probably write in public places, but I can't do those quick things that people can do and say, I need some yeah. Blocks of time. Yeah. Yeah. So, so it sounds like your performance coach gave you some good tips around transitions, right? So you have this public facing thing, and then you can come out of that and go into your creative.
Angie Faye Martin:Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's been amazing. Big shout out to Helen. I'm not gonna give you her last name because then you'll inundate her and she's mine.
Natasha Rai:So, I mean, you don't have to also give away anything she did for you for free, but I'm just curious if there was one or two things that you found the most helpful in terms of how you can help yourself when you're doing your promotions or events.
Angie Faye Martin:Um, it's probably a little bit. Underrated or obvious, but breathing techniques is one of them. Like just slow breathing, breathing beforehand. Um, also I do just basic CBT stuff. So I've got these little sheets where I will write down all of my negative thinking and then in one, in one column, and then all of my positive thoughts in the other. So a few days before I do something that I'm scared about, I will just write. You know, like what, why am I scared? You know, because I'm going to, I don't know, say something stupid, for example. Like just anything that comes into my mind like, or I don't know. I'm gonna be late. I'm gonna completely stuff it up. I'm gonna forget to turn on my microphone, which I actually did in Sydney, and it's not that bad. So you write down all of the things that are contributing to the anxiety and this is classic CBT, right? And then in the positive column, like you do the counter belief to, to that thought. So I forget to turn on my microphone. And then the positive thing is, okay, big deal recorded again later, which is what's gonna happen with, um, one of the things I was on. Oh, that's a really good, that's a really good technique. I like that. And I, yeah, it's very simple and it's, yeah. Yeah. And it's whatever works for you as well. Yeah, exactly.
Natasha Rai:Exactly. So what does your writing practice look like now? Three months since the book's been out? Do you have time or are you still really absorbed in Melaleuca?
Angie Faye Martin:I'm slowly getting back into it. So I try to write in the morning. I feel like I'm at my best in the morning after I've just had my coffee. Um, I have my own freelance editing business as well, so I do that in the afternoon. In the morning I feel a bit more creative. My mind's a bit more explorative, so I get up, I write, if I get stuck, I just do a little walk around the block or you know, just a 10 minute walk, even just literal walk around the block and. I'm probably averaging two or three hours a day writing. Um, that's great. And, and then in the afternoon, maybe three or four hours on my, on my business, I would like to in increase that a little bit over time, but. Yeah, Melaleuca the, um, events for that are still almost on a weekly basis and that obviously requires a bit of preparation as well.
Natasha Rai:Mm-hmm, exactly. Um, and so are you, when you write, are you kind of sitting down for whatever it is and writing whatever is coming to mind? Or do, are you working on something specific or do you have a goal for yourself?
Angie Faye Martin:I'm a real planner. I'm painfully boring planner. So I've finished the draft of my next novel and I'm going through that now.
Natasha Rai:Congratulations. That's huge.
Angie Faye Martin:Thank you. Yeah, it's uh, a sequel. So I've stayed in the character of Renee Taylor, an entirely new crime. Um. Yeah, so I've obviously, I planned all that out. I'm at the stage now of, well, I've got a, a rough draft. I still need to go back. And it's also a dual timeline and I feel like the present day timeline has got a lot more substance to it than the 1920s timeline. So I'm trying to breathe life into that. Um, when I say breathe life into what it's like, I've got the skeleton right of the story. Mm. Sometimes plotting is kind of, I feel like the plotting for this one was actually the easy part. Now I need to go in and really fill out the scenes and you wanna be in a hurry. You wanna like do it quickly, but you can tell when someone's doing it quickly. So you just have to sit. And I imagine the scene, I imagine the smells and the, you know, you really take yourself back there. When I was writing Melaleuca, actually what I would do is. I would imagine the scene the night before, before I would go to sleep and uh, that would save me a lot of time because I would then, when I'd sit down at my desk the next day, I had already been in the scene the night before. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And just like the colours and what are people wearing and what are they saying? And because that part of the writing is what, it's not necessarily hard, it just takes time and discipline. So letting your mind be in that scene and imagining everything that's going on, what just happened five seconds before, what's going to happen later in the day, you know? Oh, for sure. You can't rush those things.
Natasha Rai:You can't rush those things. No, you can't. And yeah. Yeah. I really like that. I really like that. Um, so what's different for you, um, in terms of coming into the second manuscript? Um, from writing Melaleuca?
Angie Faye Martin:It's been lovely in that it hasn't taken me as long.'cause I know some of the basics now. Um, I feel like it was, yeah, it was much quicker to write. I'm really looking forward to starting another one actually, like now that I feel like I. I've got some of the craft principles, I've honed them. I know kind of how it works. Um, I may do like, try pantsing, you know, like,'cause I'm such a plotter and planner. Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn mind just doing a few short stories. Just pantsing it. Mm-hmm. Not necessarily if the novel that seems daunting, like I probably waste 30 years of my life if I try to the novel. But I like the idea of just playing around with short stories. Next, I also imagine creative.
Natasha Rai:I also imagine that pantsing. Something that needs kind of, you have to plot out or think about your twists and turns and your red herrings and all of those things that go into a crime or a thriller or that kind of, you know, edge of your seat stuff that I don't, I feel like if I, because I'm a pantser a little bit, but if I tried write like that type of story or that type of plot, I would just get lost immediately. Because half the time I'm writing stuff, I'm not really sure where it's going. Like I have an end point, but I dunno how I'm gonna get there. I just let it go.
Angie Faye Martin:So, oh, I envy people like that. And I think, I also think the writing can be a little bit more beautiful, like, oh, I dunno, but maybe, maybe I'll get there. Maybe I'll get there eventually. But now I feel like it's a bit more of a practice for me, like to map it all. I kind of. Get a bit of satisfaction out of, it's like a puzzle that I'm putting together.
Natasha Rai:Well, exactly. And see, I envy that bit because when I hear, when I hear writers talk about this puzzle putting together, I'm like, I want a puzzle to put together that's just all like flowing your chaos.
Angie Faye Martin:Enjoy your beautiful chaos.
Natasha Rai:So what's your plan in terms of what you'd like to do with this manuscript? Do you have an agent now? Are you. Interested in, or how does that work for you?
Angie Faye Martin:I don't have an agent. I'm thinking about it. Um, so I've con I was contracted by HQ for the two books, so they've Okay. Got, um, maybe an agent for the third book, um, given that, you know, the ins and outs of all the public. Contractual stuff is not really my strong point. Um, I talked to a few people about pros and cons of having an agent and you know, obviously con is you gotta, you gotta share your profit, but the pros seem quite appealing as in they help you navigate, you know, this terrain of publicity and promotion and it might be worthwhile, you know, doing that. I think in the end, just so I can optimize my time a little bit more.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. And the advice that they have, the industry knowledge, like they get to see so many things that we don't have any insight into, like all the other deals and stuff. Yeah.
Angie Faye Martin:Yeah. I'm not interested in that, to be honest, to navigate it myself. Like I, I basically do my writing and then show up and, you know, talk when I have to. But the rest of, and I do Instagram obviously, but I feel pretty clumsy in all the rest of it. Mm-hmm. So I'm like, maybe I do need an agent in Yeah. In the long run.
Natasha Rai:So in terms of this book then, if you've got like a, a Harper Collins interested in your second, um, novel, does that mean you're on a deadline?
Angie Faye Martin:Yeah, I've got until the October.
Natasha Rai:Oh, wow. That's close.
Angie Faye Martin:Yeah. No. Um, but I've been working on it for a while, so. Yeah, about a year before Melaleuca even came out, I was working. Oh, okay. Yeah.
Natasha Rai:And does that also mean, and if you don't, if you can't say that's fine, but does that also mean there's a release date in mind for the second?
Angie Faye Martin:Oh no. Okay. So yeah, could be next year, but I doubt it. It's probably gonna be 2027, but I don't know. Yeah. I mean, I'm not too fussed to be honest. Uh, just once I hand it over. Like to make sure it's in as good equality as possible. I'm a bit overwhelmed or daunting sometimes. People tell me that they read Melaleuca in two days or in a single sitting. I'm like, oh, go back and read it again. I'm not doing it. And the next one can come and help for another year. You know, people start ask me when I do go around to the do these speaking events, like, oh, how's the second one going? We wanna know more about Renee. I'm like, oh Christ.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. And that also shows the love, right?
Angie Faye Martin:Yeah, I'm not gonna, there's, yeah, I don't wanna rush it though. I mean, good things take time. Exactly. I'm a slow writer. I'm pretty slow.
Natasha Rai:So, um, so in terms of like, we always like to, if possible, invite our guests to give a little tip or tips to, or top tip to our emerging writers who might be listening. Mm-hmm. Do you have one in terms of what you've, I don't know. Anything that you've gathered along the way?
Angie Faye Martin:I mean patience, probably a lot of patience I think also maybe be a bit targeted. So there seems to be actually quite a lot of opportunities out there. But do your research, um, see who the people are behind various prizes and mentors. I do recommend that route as well. Uh, a lot of the big publishing houses now have these kind of programs or opportunities where you can go in, you win a prize, and, but research who, who are the people behind it, which mentor would you get? And, um, doesn't have to be matching genre. A similar style, like do you think you could work with them and open up about your vulnerabilities as well? Like, do you think you could share what your, you know, what your, what you think your weaknesses are in writing? Because that's how you're gonna improve? Um, yeah, so research, um, don't give up. Be patient. Uh, enjoy it. Don't lose the joy for it. Like, I'm lucky that my husband constantly reminds me of, you know. Enjoying the craft because sometimes I get frustrated and it's not good enough and, you know, it becomes a job and it literally is kind of my job now, but it's not gonna be good writing if you're not enjoying it. People can tell, like if you are slaving away at your computer all day and you're hating it, you writing's probably gonna be come out like that as well. So, and that's, that's not easy, but I think that's. Um, looking after your own wellbeing, like as in doing what you love and having a balanced life, you know? Mm-hmm. You looking after your health and walks and whatever and you know, catching up with friends. Like you can't write if you know well, if you're not in a good place yourself, I think.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. Beautiful. I love that. And I have a final question, even though you've already given me so many good tips. What have you learned about how to write such layered stories?
Angie Faye Martin:That it takes time and a meditative type of practice. It's not easy. I think I enjoyed the puzzle. I enjoyed, I became a bit obsessed with it. I remember walking around the block and just, it was like an obsession to try and make it all fit together. Um. All these plot strings and you pull out one loose thread and then the whole thing falls and you've gotta put it back together again. But part of me enjoyed it as well. Mm. So don't beat yourself up, even though there definitely were times when I beat myself up. Try not to. Um, but yeah, the layers and the layers of the characters, that just takes time, time and, and love of, of the work. The layers in terms of the dual timelines. That just takes a lot of concentration and time.
Natasha Rai:Mm-hmm. Yeah. And you know, being so immersed as you were, do you remember if you took breaks when it all got too much, or if you needed to just to take a bit of distance and look at it from a different perspective, that's so important.
Angie Faye Martin:Like absolutely. I would take small, like micro breaks during the day, as in just a walk around the block. And then I'd also have, um, goals where I would finish the draft or the chapter or whatever the timeline that I was working on by Friday. And then I would promise myself, I'm not gonna look at it for the next week. Like, I'm gonna make myself have a whole week off and just read or work on something else. Um, just to give your mind a bit of a break. I also needed my friends and family and my husband to tell me that as well about Angie, give it a break. You know, you get a bit of, because you can't, sometimes you just, there's an art to it, right? There's an art to, as much of it is a craft writing. There's also an art that you need sometimes the ideas to come to you. So I've actually been stuck in something on sandal with the sequel and in, when I was in Sydney, I remember just lying back on my bed at the hotel and just got. Kind of going into a bit of a meditation, I suppose. Just there was, there's one part that I haven't been able to, um, to pull together and it just came to me and I was like, that's the beauty of writing. Like, yeah, they just, this element kind of came to me.
Natasha Rai:Oh, I love that. Well. Um, sadly we're out time. I could easily talk a couple of hours know. Um, thank you so much for being my guest on the book deal, um, Angie, and um, yeah, I love Melaleuca and I hope that it finds all the readers it deserves'cause it's, it's a really special book and I loved it.
Angie Faye Martin:Thank you. Thank you for having me on your show. I have really enjoyed this chat.
Natasha Rai:My pleasure. Thank you. I had a wonderful chat with Angie and reflecting on our conversation. What got me thinking was around the stories we tell and how we tell them. So the intention that I'm setting for the following few weeks or the next month. This as follows. So if you have a look at your manuscript, regardless of what genre you're writing in, have a look at the risks that you take with your storytelling. Are there layers that you are adding to your characters or to your plot? Like are there multiple motifs or themes that you're trying to explore in your writing? And if you are not and you want to tell a story, that's pretty straightforward. Have a look at what you are risking. Publishers these days are very interested in looking at people playing with form and the type of risks we might take when we are writing in a genre that has a lot of publications in it, for example, crime. So that is an invitation and the intention for you to go and have a look and see where you can maybe take a few risks. And of course, one of the Beau most beautiful things that Angie and I talked about was the time to really immerse yourself and imagine so. If you can take some time to daydream your way into thinking about risk taking, storytelling and layering. That is my invitation to you and that is the intention. Thank you to Di Taylor and Lindsay Bartels, our newest Patreon subscribers. Welcome to the Book Deal podcast community and thank you so much for your support.
Tina Strachan:Thank you for listening to the Book Deal podcast. We're able to bring you these weekly writerly chats because of our amazing patrons. Join the TBD family by becoming a member of our Patreon community@patreon.com, the book deal podcast. And if you love the pod, please give us a rating or review. And don't forget to follow us on Instagram and Facebook.