The Book Deal
Motivation and inspiration for emerging writers, helping them pave their own pathway to publishing success.
The Book Deal
Emily Paull on "retiring" from writing and her 17-year journey to publishing The Distance Between Dreams
Emily Paull is a Western Australian librarian, author and book reviewer. Having formerly worked in bookselling, Emily is an avid reader and a big supporter of the WA writing community who regularly moderates author interviews around Perth. She is the author of the historical novel, The Distance Between Dreams (Fremantle Press, 2025) and the short story collection, Well-Behaved Women (Margaret River Press, 2019). The Distance Between Dreams was shortlisted for the 2023 Fogarty Literary Award under the working title 'The Dreamers.' Emily was also highly commended for the 2021 Fogarty Literary Award for her manuscript, 'The Good Daughter.
Emily shares the highs and lows of her 17-year journey to publication, including the inspiration behind her works, the significance of setting, and the importance of place in historical fiction. They discuss Emily’s experiences with the publishing industry, her role as a book reviewer and librarian, and the value of libraries for authors. Emily also offers practical advice for writers at every stage of their journey and emphasises the importance of community and persistence in the literary world.
You can subscribe to Emily's Substack here.
This week's Debut in the Spotlight is Darcy Green with their debut novel, After the Siren (Penguin, September 2025),
00:55 Introducing Emily Paull
01:37 Emily's Journey in the Book Industry
04:58 The Reality of Being a Writer
08:40 The Long Road to Publication
19:07 Short Stories
27:59 The Fogarty Literary Award
30:35 The Distance Between Dreams
33:07 Darcy Green's Debut Novel
34:24 The Fogarty Award Journey
40:23 Historical Research and Fremantle's Significance
45:47 Writing About the Thai-Burma Railway
49:25 Tips for Authors Working with Libraries
58:44 Becoming a Book Reviewer
01:02:16 Final Thoughts and Top Tips for Writers
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This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books.
Natasha Rai:We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal. So no matter what stage of writing you're at, we've got you covered. I'm Tina Strachan. I'm Madeleine Cleary. And I'm Natasha Rai. And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors one deal at a
Madeleine Cleary:time. The book Deal Podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on. And pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging. Emily Paull is a Western Australian librarian, author and book reviewer in 2019. Her debut collection of short fiction well-behaved women was published by Margaret River Press. Her novel, the Distance Between Dreams was shortlisted for the 2023. Fogarty Literary Award was published by Fremantle Press in April, 2025. Emily is incredibly generous as she shares all the highs and lows of her 17 year journey to publication. She has so many top tips to share in this episode. And if you do want more, subscribe to Emily Substack. Check out her reviews at the au review. I hope you enjoy this episode. Emily Paul, welcome to the Book Deal Podcast. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here. You are very much have your hand in lots of different parts of the book industry. You are a critic, a librarian, former bookseller, and now a published author. Um, has books always been part of your life, Emily?
Emily Paull:Uh, I think pretty safe to say yes there. I, I co very much one of those t-shirts that's in the style of the Barbie movie where, you know, Ken said My job is just beach. And I've seen around people have t-shirts that say my job is just books because it really is the best way to describe all the different bookish hats that I wear in my day-to-day life. Um, yeah, I've been. Reading my entire life, you know, can't go to sleep without reading a book for half an hour before bed. Um, people on the podcast can't see this, but I've got like a literal wall of books she does behind me right now. And some of them are double stacked and there are some on the floor and there's a trolley over here with all the, the TBR ones and my TBR number is ridiculously high. That's to be read for anybody that's not chronically online the way I am.
Madeleine Cleary:Actually,
Emily Paull:I think I saw you
Madeleine Cleary:put a photo on your substack, was it? Of your TBR pile. You've got a mission to, to
Emily Paull:click. Uh, that was part of my TBR pile. Yes, that's the oldest books on my TBRI decided I would try and read anything that was added to my TBR pre 2021. Um, so that's the very far bookcase over by the window there. Mm. From the third shelf down. So it's, it's nearly 80 books. Like, and that's a fraction of my TPR, so I'm not gonna tell you what the TPR number is because it's shameful. Um, not that we shame anybody for their reading habits of like, there's no book shaming here, but it is a ridiculously high number and you know that you get that little cringe of over consumption when you, you tell people what the number is. So I won't be telling you what it is right now.
Madeleine Cleary:Do you, do you find now, I mean, being a critic, you've, and a librarian and someone who interviews a lot of writers yourself, you probably receive lots of free copies of books constantly and it just adds to your pile. Yeah. Do you do find there's like a pressure or a schedule now, now that you're a published writer to read?
Emily Paull:Uh, I mean, it's very hard to stick to a reading schedule because as I'm sure you know, you know, you have this intention of, you know, these are the books I'm gonna get to this month, and then something really shiny comes out and you have to get to it right away. Um, strictly speaking, with the books that I get sent for review, if it's something I've requested, I'm supposed to get to it within. A reasonable timeframe. And I think when I first signed up, um, I was told sort of three weeks was reasonable. Uh, I'm looking at my review pile right now. The oldest one on there is from May, 2025. So to all the authors whose books I haven't reviewed yet, I am really sorry that I'm so behind. But we're a small volunteer team and I'm trying to write my own book and uh, my eyes are bigger than my stomach in a book sense, I guess. But very rarely do we get publicists following up and saying, where is the review? So I'm a bit lucky that
Madeleine Cleary:way. Well, we appreciate your work, Emily, and I can't even imagine Yes. Your reading pile and that pressure on you. So thank you for the work you do, and we will talk about the au review as well. I'm interested to know how you, um, you know, go fall into something like this as well. Um, but let's start from the beginning. When did you wanna become a writer?
Emily Paull:Oh gosh, I can't remember a time when I didn't want to become a writer. I think once I learned what the concept was, because I knew I loved books and I knew that I loved stories. And then I guess as soon as I was aware that people were the ones creating them and that that was a job you could do, that was probably the thing I had my heart set on. Um, maybe I was a tiny little realist or something though, because I've always been very aware that you can't just make a living being a writer. So throughout my childhood I've said I want to be a Japanese teacher and a writer. I want to be a doctor and a writer. I want to be, oh, what else was on the list? Um. At one point I wanted to be a TaeKwonDo instructor. Uh,'cause I was doing TaeKwonDo, um, a chiropractor at one point, like doctor and chiropractor. They're the least in line with my current personality. I'm very much not a maths and science person. Um, a teacher and a writer. That was always something to pay the bills and then the writing at night. Um, so that kind of tracks well with the rest of my career. I've always done. Work part-time and writing part-time. You are so from the end of school,
Madeleine Cleary:you sound so mature the way that you said that, like when you're a kid, you realize, okay, you've gotta be a writer plus something else. And because I think as a, as a, you know, child or even people who are outside the industry have this vision of writers that they spend most of their time hurried, you know, sort of scurred away in their office, writing it, pays the bills, they become the next JK Rowling or Stephen King, and suddenly they're very famous. But it's not quite the reality, is it?
Emily Paull:No. I do know a few people who are lucky enough to be able to write full-time, but even amongst that group of friends, you know, they're not rolling in cash. They're not paying for everyone's dinner every time we go out. They, they've very consciously structured their life and their expenses in such a way that means they have the freedom and in a way. I'm really envious of that because the thing I'm really struggling with at the moment is that block of time where you can get several days in a row to devote to your work because, you know, I get to Sunday evening sometimes I don't write on Monday, even though it's my day off because I've gotta keep my house running and exercise and do appointments and things like that. And then, you know, it's a whole week before I get back to my desk and I have to reacquaint myself with the work. So yeah, it's really, it's really tough out there for Australian writers and yeah, maybe I have been aware of that from quite a young age. Um, yeah, it's What does your writing routine look like? Oh gosh. Uh, it's not really existent at the moment. I just have a. Block at the moment. That is Sunday afternoons, one till three. I have a, like a virtual write in session, or we call it a shut up and write session. Love that. Um, with a couple of friends where we do timed blocks, and that's supposed to be protected time, but every now and then something will come up, uh, like, you know, family emergency or an appointment or we had our, um, debut crew catch up a couple of Sundays ago for people from wa from the 2025 group to scare the living bejesus out of the 2026 group. Um, so that happened to, to be at the same No, no, of course not. I mean, we might've, you know, given them a little bit of a reality check and given them some practical tips in the, in the process, but it was also a celebration, I hope. I don't know, maybe we'll have to find out from some of them. If they went, gee, she's really cynical and it scared me.
Madeleine Cleary:Well, every, you've been an absolute champion in support of the writing community generally, Emily, so I'm imagining you were to give them some excellent advice. Um, let's talk about distance between Dreams, your debut novel mm-hmm. Without out with Fremantle Press, um, I'm going to ask you the question that every author absolutely loves. Can you give us your elevator pitch, Emily? Oh,
Emily Paull:gosh. Uh, I'm so outta practice of this now. Uh, let me just read my own blurb. Um, so it's a World War II love story with a twist. Um, it's a working class boy called Winston Keller, who meets a upper middle class girl called Sarah Willis at a party and they fall in love, but discover that there's a family secret that is going to potentially be an obstacle to the two of them being together. And then World War II begins, and that presents an even bigger obstacle. So it's about whether or not they can find their way back to one another and whether or not they can move on if they can't.
Madeleine Cleary:It's such a beautiful story. We were just talking earlier that despite the fact that it's set during the war, it's such a uplifting, heartwarming story. It has romance at its center, but it is fairly expansive. I could feel it, and I don't read that many stories set in Western Australia as well. So I think that's also really important, and at its heart is about, you know, two people and, um, the things that tear them apart and hopefully come back together again. So congratulations on your debut. Um, I heard, or I read that it was inspired by a cd. Is that right? Yes.
Emily Paull:Yeah. It's Tell tell me about that. Oh gosh. Um, so I mean, you say it's my debut and it's my debut novel. I'm kind of a rebel. Yes, that's right. Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary:Yes. You, I I went and saw that you'd written, um, a collection of short stories well-behaved women. I was, yes. Just, I was like, well, you are not technically a debut. No,
Emily Paull:I, uh, begged my way into the, the debut crew, uh,'cause it's my debut novel. My, my short story collection came out at the end of 2019, so December, 2019 was my publication date. And so that was launched pretty much straight into COVID. And it was a book that kind of snuck up on me as well, because I'd had a few short stories published through Margaret River Press in their anthologies that they used to do every year and. They applied for some grant funding to do a few mentorships, and, um, one of them they gave to me. So I got to work with Laurie Steed, who is an absolutely amazing West Australian writer and writing teacher and advocate for writing. Uh, so that was a fantastic experience. But, um, I hadn't ever really intended to write a book of short stories. And I remember the publisher from Margaret River Press, she'd emailed me to tell me they'd been successful in getting the funding and that my application had been successful. And I must have skimmed the email because a day later I got another email saying, hi Emily, did you read this email? Because I hadn't responded and been really excited. Oh, um, because my focus was so long has been on getting the distance between Dreams published. It's a book that I started writing in. April, 2008. That's a long time. I was in year 12. Yeah. So, you know, I'm just giving away my age on the internet. There I was, I was 17. Uh, and it was sort of a culmination of a whole bunch of different things that I was interested in and that I was studying in all sort of swirling around in my head. And then I had this album that I had traipsed all over Japan looking for a copy of, because we couldn't import it into Australia for some reason. I had found this band called Search Rescue through MySpace, um, you know, with MySpace pages used to go to your friend's pages and they'd have a playlist going and you could like follow. The playlists through to discover new bands? Yes, yes. Vaguely yes. It's like a very niche memory that sort of becomes unlocked every time I think about it. But I'd found this band called Search Rescue. They had this album called The Compound, and I really wanted a copy and we were going to Japan. So, you know, we traipsed around all these CD shops trying to find a copy of it. Finally managed to started listening to it when I got home. And the tracks in order seemed to be suggesting a story. Um, and one of the tracks is called Great Big War. So I think that was part of why I started thinking of it as being a historical story, but I was also really enjoying reading Kate Morton at that time. Mm-hmm. So I discovered the Shifting Fog and the Forgotten Garden. Um, and I think most of her other books maybe hadn't even come out by that point, but I'd sort of decided this was the kind of book that I wanted to write. Um, so I, yeah, I planned out this. Outline of a book based on the track listing. And
Madeleine Cleary:it was, that's amazing that I've never heard that before. You've, it's, it's the structure using a seat. How amazing is that? Yeah.
Emily Paull:Well, it didn't stay as the structure though, that's the thing.'cause when I planned it out, it was like a murder mystery. And really all the meeting and getting together stuff had happened prior to chapter one. And then Sarah had gone missing. And um, and Winston was basically trying to work out what had happened to her with the war in the background. So I, I wrote out the, the plan and then promptly threw it out the window the second I started writing. So, um, I can't plan to save my life, which is a real headache when you're a historical fiction writer, as I'm sure you know, Madeline, because yeah, you have to kind of fit things around what actually happened, or someone's gonna send you an email and tell you you got it wrong.
Madeleine Cleary:Well, we're both in the same club there, Emily. Um, being pants says, but hey, it's fun, right? It's so fun. So fun. Okay, so, so you, you've planned out mm-hmm. This novel based on the CDs tracks Did, when did you start writing? I actually think
Emily Paull:I started writing on Anzac Day 2008. I think you remember the date? Yeah, because I just remember, well, maybe it's one of those things where it's not actually accurate, but I just kind of remember being like, I'm gonna write a war story and you know, I've had this day at school where they just keep talking about the significance of Anzac Day and I'm doing TE history, the tertiary entrance, exam level history, what do they call it now? Atar? I don't know. Yeah. Um,
and
Emily Paull:you know, they, they keep impressing on me, the Anzac legend and all of this. And I'm sitting there going, you know, here's, this is really significant. I'm starting my war story on Anzac Day. Um, so yeah, I mean, it, it probably took a while to finish because I would've had to do exams a couple of times that year, but. From there, I rewrote the book. Gosh, how many times would it be? Like 13, 14 times. And I would send it out and it would come back and I would get disheartened and go, I give up and then I would get another burst of inspiration and redo it and send it out again. And um, okay. So yeah. So
Madeleine Cleary:how long was this over? Like over what period of time were you rewriting and send and I'm assuming by sending it out, you mean to publishers? To
Emily Paull:publishers or competitions or agents? Yeah. Um, so, so 2008 to 2023 was the period under which it was uncontracted. 15 years. Yeah. So it was, yeah, 15 years. Gosh, to get contracted, 17 years to be on the shelf,
Madeleine Cleary:that is half my life. That's a tale of persistence, Emily. Yes. Okay. So during that time, how did you ever think I'm gonna put down this project and work on something new? Oh, definitely. Yeah.
Emily Paull:I mean, I. During COVID, we didn't have lockdowns in wa in the same way that the, um, some of the other states did. Uh, you had some awful times there. We had our borders were closed and we had restrictions around movement and things like that. So the place where I was working did close to the public and because we were public library, we were getting a lot of pressure to use some of our leave because there's only so much you can do when you're not open to the public. But we were doing things like making online story time videos and doing home delivery to people and you know, trying to do as much as we could. But I got to the point where I thought. I do have a lot of leave. I'm gonna use a whole bunch of it. I took six weeks off and I wrote a different book.
Madeleine Cleary:Mm-hmm.
Emily Paull:Um, so that's the one I'm revising now. And hopefully that's not going to take 15 years to get off the ground. So 2021 to question mark. The clock is ticking on that one, I guess.
Madeleine Cleary:All right. Countdown's on. Yeah. So during that 15 year period though, so obviously you went through like lots of rejections. Mm-hmm. Lots of feedback. How do you maintain your perseverance during this time?
Emily Paull:Uh, I mean, you cry a lot and complain a lot and tell the people around you that you suck and, you know, say some pretty nasty things about yourself because it's all part of the process. Um, yeah, I mean, I'm still trying to get a handle on the like mental health side of writing because it can be really, really tough. You know, like when you're writing it, you fluctuate between, I'm an absolute genius and, you know, I'm. Incapable of doing this. And it's so frustrating to not be able to translate the vision that you have in your mind onto the page in any meaningful way. But then also there's the added layer of you're sending it out to industry professionals and asking them to judge you. Yeah. In which the time they're gonna find you wanting. And that's, it's such a paradox of confidence and vulnerability. Uh, so I'm still trying to figure my way through the mental health side of things and the perseverance all comes with that. I think, um, I think it's Rachel Johns that says, if you can do anything else, do, like, you have to be absolutely compelled to want to write because it is so hard on the mental health. So yeah, if I could have quit, I would've, I did announce my retirement sort of early 2020, I guess when I wasn't really writing while I was promoting my short story collection. But I couldn't stay retired for long. I had like a burst of inspiration that became the 2021 draft. So yeah, I just couldn't stay retired. And I guess there's something in me that compels me. To keep trying, even if it makes me feel awful sometimes.
Madeleine Cleary:Mm. That's very powerful. And that compulsion, and I think even after being published, and I mean, you had this collection of short stories published in 2019, which is a, a feat in itself. It's almost harder to publish collection of short stories in Australia than it is a long form novel. Um, well,
Emily Paull:cause people don't really buy and read them, which is a real tragedy. But I once overheard a bookseller telling a customer that they don't really stock many short story collections because she doesn't see the point in them. So,
Madeleine Cleary:and I love short stories. I think they're wonderful. Tell, tell us about then your journey to publication for your short story collection.
Emily Paull:Mm. Um, it was. Yeah, so I, I'd had a few individual stories published. I'd been told by another writer who was the, the parent of a friend of my sister's who she'd taken me by First Writer's festival. She would sometimes give me advice. Um, and her advice had been try and get your name out there, try and get a few publication credits to your name, try and get a bit of experience. So I'd been sending stories to competitions and to literary magazines. And we had Margaret River Press very briefly, but very powerfully in Western Australia. They did some amazing work and they used to do this annual anthology of short stories. So I was in, I wanna say two of those, but it could have been three. I think it's two. And I had a few stories published in Westerly Magazine and a few other places as well, some places online. And so, because I was starting to build up a bit of a body of work and I had a relationship with Carolyn Wood, who was the publisher at Margaret Press, and she's now working with the Center for Stories. She and her husband John run the Center for Stories in Perth, which does amazing work about uplifting, marginalized voices through storytelling. And they have this beautiful house that you can go and do workshops in and residencies, and it's really worth checking out if you are into writing and in wa. Um, so yeah, Caroline Wood approached me and said, you are somebody who's been published in a few of our anthologies. We are looking at getting some funding to do some mentorships where some writers would be mentored by an established short story writer and sort of. Mentored through the process of doing your first collection. Mm-hmm. Um, which meant that I had to put together some samples and fill in some questions as part of their grant application. They were successful and I think that was at the end of 2018 that they found out that they'd been successful. Yeah. Validation though for you after Yeah. This piece
Madeleine Cleary:of rejections with the distance between dreams to get that, that that would've been very bolstering, I would
Emily Paull:imagine. I think so, yeah. To have somebody whose work I admire so much, um, approach me and say, you know, we would like you to be part of this. And then also to be paired up with Laurie Steed, who became my mentor, who is gentle, but also can be tough on you when need be. So there were a few stories that I really liked that ended up. In a folder on the computer somewhere for potentially collection number two, if I ever get around to writing a second collection. Mm-hmm. Um, I remember him sending me an email. Uh, I'd sent him a new story to say like, oh, you know, is there room? Can we include this? And a reply came back within the hour, I think with the subject line. Great Effing story. I mean, he, he said the actual s swear word, but, uh, I don't wanna get your podcast, uh, explicitly rated. So that was his reaction. Yeah, it has. Okay, good. Well, if I accidentally swell later, then I won't feel so bad. Yeah, no, it was, it was a really fantastic experience. And, um, the process of revising for publication with someone that I could bounce ideas off. Pretty much constantly was fantastic. And I know that I was really lucky to have that because when you work with a bigger publisher, you don't necessarily get quite so much focused attention for quite such a long period of time.
Madeleine Cleary:Mm-hmm. I do think the process and of writing short stories, it really is helpful for novel writing. It really makes you focus on your craft and your use of language. Um, and I mean, I dabbled in a few short stories while I was,'cause I'm kind of like you. I'm, I'm very, I feel very compelled to write even when I'm in between jobs, jobs being the writing projects. And I, I think short stories can sometimes help fill that gap. Um, they're really, really difficult though, aren't they?
Emily Paull:They are. I mean, you've got a very short space, um, you know, when you're doing a collection, you don't have quite so many restrictions as far as the length of the story goes, but. Strictly speaking, most Australian journals and, um, competitions and things have like a 2000 to 3000 word limit, which means that the Australian short story is much shorter than the American counterpart. A lot of American short stories can have an upper word limit of like 10,000 words, which almost sounds like a novelette to me. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So you have to be really economic with your word choices. You have to start the story as late as possible and somehow give all the context that's needed. And I think those skills, like you say, they really do set you up well for writing a novel, particularly when you're writing a novel in a genre like history or fantasy or sci-fi or something that requires a lot of world building and context.
Madeleine Cleary:Yeah. Agreed. So let's just go back. So we've got so well-behaved women has come out mm-hmm. December, 2019. It's COVID. You've taken some time off work. Mm-hmm. You've written project number two, so it's 2021 now. Mm-hmm. Um, what, what were you still tinkering away at the distance between Dreams? Uh, in this time?
Emily Paull:Not really immediately prior to writing project number two, um, which was called the turning tide at that time, um, I had decided I was retired and had been sort of still keeping in contact with my writing friends, but basically just, you know, cutting myself some slack and sort of saying, well, it doesn't matter if I don't write, if I don't write in my journal, I just wanna read books. I'm retired. I don't write anymore. I love that. I love that you've said that you're retired. Oh yeah. And honestly, I recommend it. If you really are feeling the pressure and you're feeling like you don't love writing anymore, just retire because you're putting the pressure on yourself. There's nobody waiting for your books if you're not contracted, you know, like.
Madeleine Cleary:What's to stop you retiring. And I think it's almost like, it sounds like you are almost reaching rightly burnout with that constant sort of stream, like doing that for 15 years. It's a long time to have that.
Emily Paull:Yeah, it's
Madeleine Cleary:nice. And
Emily Paull:I distance, I do, yeah, distance. I do put a, a lot of pressure on myself as well. I am a bit of a perfectionist, a little bit of an all or nothing thinker. So you're probably right that maybe I was reaching a little bit of writerly burnout and um, I think you've probably spoken with people about this on the, the podcast before, but there is kind of this idea that your book's gonna come out, short story collection, debut book, whatever, that's gonna sell lots and lots and lots of copies and that's gonna be it, that's gonna be the beginning of your career. And so I kind of had to come to terms with this idea that no, your book's gonna come out. It's gonna be kind of a small drop in the ocean and it's not necessarily gonna be the start of a career. The everything resets. You go back to having to find a home for the next project. You know, you still have to go through the submissions process. You still have to. Make those relationships and you know, now that you've got a book out, some opportunities are no longer open to you because there are many prizes that are only open to people who have never published a book before. Mm. Um, and so in many ways, having one book out makes publishing any more books, maybe more difficult. So I was coming to terms with that and almost sort of grieving this idea of what I thought would happen the first time I got a book published. And that has almost happened again this second time because you have to learn, it's a business and you have to learn discipline, and you have to learn how to, um, do some of your own advocating for your book and, and learn how to work with marketing and pr and how to work with journalists and festivals. And there's, it's a very steep learning curve and it is a business. And I had to stop thinking about it as a hobby and start thinking about it as work. So. It's almost mirrored the experience the first time around doing that. With my first book, with a slightly bigger publisher with the distance between dreams,
Madeleine Cleary:you almost don't want, like you, I completely agree with you, you have to turn on that work brain, that business brain, the, that author business brain. But at the same time, you also want to sort of save time and space and energy for that creative spot. The, the thing that compels you to write, I mean, all of this, the business, all of what we're doing is trying to buy ourselves that creative space as well. At the same time. It's a really tricky thing to do, I think, and I can understand that when well-Behaved women came out, you wanted to take that time to, to be part of that business and put your business mind on and, and, you know, perhaps take that break. I think that's a really important point. So. What happened then? Obviously, I mean, spoilers, the distance between Dreams was published. Tell us about the publication journey. The successful one?
Emily Paull:Yes. Um, okay, so I had had a little bit of, uh, encouragement because the, the turning tide, the, well, I renamed it by that point to the Good daughter. But project number two had been highly commended in this amazing award that we have here in wa, the Fogerty Literary Award, which is, um, the Fogerty Foundation working with Fremantle Press to discover books by West Australian writers between the ages of 18 and 35. It's been going since 2019, I think was the first round. And there's a bit of cash prize involved, isn't there? There is a$20,000 cash prize. Yeah. Um, spoiler alert, I didn't win. Um, but I made it onto the highly commended list and that was really encouraging because. Even though it was kind of like, you know, missed it by that much sort of situation, I knew that it was a competitive field and to make it onto the list at all was kind of a way of saying, keep going. There's something here. So which year was this in? That was in 2021 with the, the turning tide, with the project number two that I'd written in the six weeks. Yeah, I think you wrote a book in six weeks as well that would Oh, yeah. Astounding. If you have nothing, nothing else demanding on your time. Like, I don't have kids, um, I wasn't going to work. Uh, I don't really exercise. I don't cook and I don't really clean my house, so, uh, you know, this is just a picture of me living in squ and eating chips all the time. Um, no, but because I didn't really have too many other demands on my time and I just smashed out that book in six weeks and then obviously revised it before sending it to the award. Um, but yeah, like it can be done if you can get that focused time and you already sort of have the idea. Cooking away in your mind, and then you just get that like, you know, you're at the gate, like, just let me out, ready to go. Ready to run the race sort of type feeling. Um, you are inspiring me, Emily. Oh, good. Yeah, just take six weeks off work, everybody. If you've gotta leave, do it. Yes. Um, yeah, so that award had kind of been like a beacon of like, keep going. So not long after that I had shelved the book that would become the Distance between Dreams and had sort of decided this is gonna be my bottom draw book. It was my, um, I recently heard Holly Auer call it Her Apprentice novel. Mm-hmm. As in like, you, while, while you're learning the, the ropes. Um, and so that was, I was deciding that that was gonna be my apprentice novel. I, it was obviously something was never gonna work about it. I would always love it, but it was probably never gonna come out of the bottom drawer. And I had this flash of inspiration. The book was starting in the wrong place. It needed to start at the party.
Madeleine Cleary:Oh
Emily Paull:yeah. Where did it start originally? Um, originally it started with the scene where he's up at the roundhouse Winston's up at the Roundhouse, which is this old prison complex in Fremantle at Arthur's head in, uh, in the west end of Fremantle. So it sort of overlooks, um, the water and you can sort of see the port and it's this like vantage point. So originally he was there drawing, realized that he's late and goes home for dinner. When he gets there, the Willis family are coming over for dinner and so many people who'd read the book had gone, but the Willis family and the Keller family hate each other. Yes. So why would they ever have dinner together? And I'm going, yeah. But it's a one-upmanship thing, you know? Um, Robert Willis just wants to show George Keller that he's so much better than him, so he's coming to his house so that he can criticize his furniture. And it just never made sense. And also, one beta reader pointed out that they were eating dinner and the meal went from being like roast chicken to being roast lamb, to being roast beef, to back to being roast chicken because I just hadn't really paid attention to continuity. So that was an embarrassingly late pickup. Um, but how, yeah. So I think it's really hard.
Madeleine Cleary:I think it's hard to know where to start a novel. I think that's one, it's really hard. Yeah. And once you find the right place, yeah. It all flows from there doesn't, yeah. So many potholes and, and issues just start to unravel.
Emily Paull:Yeah. So I thought, you know, where, where did two. 16, 17 year olds meet each other in party. 1930s, Perth a party. So how do I get him to a party with her rich friends? And the answer was, maybe he's working there. So at this point, I had added in his best mate, Lockie, who's probably my favorite character. Aside from the main characters in the whole book, he's a football player. He's a star full forward for South Mantle Football Club who just won the Waffle Grand final two weeks ago. So that was pretty cool. Um, not that I know anything about sport other than the names of the club, but you know, um, I got, I sent them some copies of my book and they got some players to pretend to read it after it came out. Uh, yeah. So Lockie gets Winston into this party. Well, he tries to, they try to get some work and uh, Winston gets turned away'cause they're late, so he's hanging around outside. When Sarah walks across the lawn with her high heeled shoes, sort of stinking into the grass and she needs someone's arm to lean on to get inside. So that's how they meet. Meet. Cute. Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary:Beautiful. No, I, I love that scene.
Darcy Green:Hello, I'm Darcy Green and my debut novel after The Siren was just released by a Penguin Random House after the Siren is a queer romantic comedy about two A FLM players with some history who unexpectedly become teammates and gradually work out that they don't dislike one another. After all, I'm a long time reader and writer of Queer Romance and I love stories that Center Queer Joy. I'm also a long time footy fan, and the idea for after The Siren came to me when I was reading a lot of sports romance and couldn't find the a FL romance I was craving. Never fear, though I'm reliably told that you don't have to like a FL to enjoy this book, though there are definitely some treats in there for footy fans for a really long time. Stories about queer romance tended to focus on trauma and difficulty. Those are very important stories, but I believe it's essential that we get all sorts of queer stories, including romantic comedies full of on field and off field tension, sunshine, joy, and footy shorts. I had so much fun writing after the siren. If you pick it up, I really hope it makes you smile. Thank you.
Madeleine Cleary:Okay, so. You found out the place to start,
Emily Paull:then
Madeleine Cleary:what?
Emily Paull:Then the Fogarty Award was open for entries again, and so that gave me a deadline to get everything finished. I said to my writer's group, um, shout out to the history writer salon, uh, that I was gonna send it. And they were very encouraging. And I think it was the night before entries closed, I was still trying to decide on a title to give the book because Freemantle Press had rejected this particular manuscript a few times before under different titles. So I thought if they see the title that it used to have, they will know it's the same book and maybe not even read it. So I've gotta disguise it. Um, and it was a ridiculously short amount of time after entries closed that I had a missed call from Fremantle Press, which when they eventually rang me back, was to say I had made it onto a short list of six writers. They wouldn't only have a short list of so many writers, but that they couldn't really. Separate anyone out to be long list rather than shortlist level. But they sort of tempered the expectations by saying We're not going to publish all six, just so you know. I'm sort of going, yep, okay. Don't get too excited. And then there was a, what was that moment like though? Oh gosh. Well, I was at work and they were sort of like, don't tell anybody. And I'm going, everyone's watching me talk on the phone. Um, how can you not? It was pretty surreal. You can't, you not the secret. Can you? I know. Well, can you imagine, I think it's the Vogel, where you would know for months that you'd won and you weren't allowed to tell anybody. Can you imagine doing that? No, it's impossible. No. All you wanna do is shout and be like, my book is getting published. Um, yeah. So the Fogarty literary award ceremony was in May of 2023. It was freezing cold. We were at Edith Cowen University in Mount Lawley, in the Spiegel tent, which was beautiful visually, but not very good at keeping out the elements. So we had to sit. To the side of stage for most of the, the evening. They were also doing readings from other books and things. And then we sat through the announcement of the winner where they brought each of us up to get our shortlist certificates. And then we went back to our little wooden chairs and pretended that our teeth weren't chattering and we weren't freezing. And then they announced the winner. And it wasn't me, it was Catherine Allen for her amazing book, the Skeleton House, um, which is just such a fantastic read. So, um, if you haven't read that, please read it and. So then the adrenaline all sort of let down and I realized how cold I was and I like rushed off the side of stage. Um, and Emma Young, another Fremantle press author who has been shortlisted for the award, gave me a hug and I'm going, oh, don't hug me or cry. And then Georgia Richter, who is the publisher at F Freemantle Press, came over to give me a hug as well and to tell me that they still wanted to publish the book. And I said, I tried to disguise it by giving it a new title'cause you've rejected it before. And she said, I know.'cause you don't get anything past Georgia. That's why she's such a good editor. So what changed for Fremantle Preston? I think. I had always been starting the book in the wrong place. Mm-hmm. And I assume that publishers are very busy people and if I had a slow saggy start to my story, they never got to the good bit.
Madeleine Cleary:Yeah, yeah,
Emily Paull:yeah. So you have to put the good bit
Madeleine Cleary:first. That is a really good tip. Everybody. That must have been the most amazing night ever.'cause not often do you get a publisher in person telling you that they're gonna publish your book.
Emily Paull:Um, yeah. I mean, I'm pretty lucky here having Fremantle Press because I have known people from that publisher for a long time in various contexts. Um, I've reviewed books for them previously. Their team is often out at events, so I had met a lot of these people before as well. Um, so. Yeah, I mean, to, to get a hug from Georgia and have her tell me in person that she wanted to publish the book was really, really cool. I didn't end up working with Georgia as my editor. I worked with Rachel Hanson, who she was incredible and very thorough, and also gives amazing pep talks when I'm having an anxiety spiral. So, um, yeah, that whole team is just incredible people. So let,
Madeleine Cleary:let's talk a little bit about the setting of the novel, um, in Fremantle. Um, I think your novel, it, it does so well. It really anchors you in time and place, and, and that's what good historical fiction does. It, it transports you, um, but you don't overdo it. You don't take too many liberties by you, you, you never do it in a way that it compromises the flow of the story. Like the story is very much at its heart. But, um, I loved being transported to Fremantle that time. Can you talk a little bit about the research that went into that and how important the setting is?
Emily Paull:Yeah, I mean, I, I do worry at times that my writing is too, uh, Western Australian, that it's too like, I don't know, parochial because when I did my honors year at the end of my first uni degree, I looked at, um, nostalgia in West Australian fiction and whether or not Western Australian fiction was its own genre and what the hallmarks were, and sort of identified that West Australian fiction kind of has this very self-referential streak to it, where it's just kind of trying to almost like justify its own existence and write back against the, the literary, um, conglomerate of Sydney and Melbourne. So. I am lucky in a way that working with a local West Australian publisher, that they've been to these places, they love them as much as I do, and they were willing to let me leave in as much of that speci specificity to Western Australia, um, as they did. Have you been to Fremantle yourself, Madeleine? I, I didn't
Madeleine Cleary:wanna admit Emily. I've never been past LA going west. Mm-hmm.
Emily Paull:You'll have to come like, you know, I would love to tech festival if you're listening, butterfly, women, like get on that. Um, yeah. So the place is almost like a character in the book is one of the things that we decided on. And so, um, you may or may not be aware, Fremantle was the busiest Allied Naval port in the Southern hemisphere in World War ii, and it was the second busiest Allied Naval port in the world with the first one being Pearl Harbor.
Mm. So.
Emily Paull:December, 1941, Pearl Harbor is bombed, and subsequently the Americans joined the war, and by March, 1942, Fremantle is full of British, Dutch and American submariners. There is a submarine base in Fremantle Harbor, which is supposed to be kept secret, but I think it's virtually impossible that nobody knew about it because suddenly there were all these armed forces personnel walking around in naval uniforms that brought a sense of security and fun and novelty to the town. But it also would've brought a degree of anxiety as well, because suddenly, you know, most of the American Navy. Is based outta Fremantle, and that makes Fremantle a big target.
Mm.
Emily Paull:So it became this sort of hub of activity as it had been in other wars as well. Um, a lot of tro ships left from Fremantle. Um, it's a, a town that is very less of a residential area and more of a business and manufacturing and shipyard type area. Even today, you know, there are people who live. In Fremantle, but people tend to live more in the outer suburbs. And the closer you get to Fremantle port, the more it's businesses now. We get lots of container ships and cruises going in and out of there. So I assume there would've been cruises in and out of there earlier in the 20th century as well, but maybe not while the wall was going on. Mm-hmm. Um, so it's a very busy sort of hub of activity and it's a mix of different class backgrounds and also of different cultural backgrounds. So post World War ii, um, there were a lot of Greek and Italian migrant. Communities that sort of settled in that area. So now we have very famous fish and chip shops like cis and CA brothers and yeah. So it's, it's a very interesting place. It's a place I spent a lot of time in my teenage years, so I did something that we Oh, I'm so jealous, Emily. That's, I think parts of Melbourne would be like that too though. I mean, before we started recording, we were talking about the state library of Victoria and that's got that beautiful reading room.
Madeleine Cleary:There are some parts with the desk in the middle, although, um, I hadn't set the much of my book in, um, sort of those grand buildings. It was more just in the slums and Yeah. And those got demolished to make way for fancy houses. That's right. That's right. So it's wonderful having that visual, isn't it? And yeah, and looking straights and even of course, you just have to transplant images of what it would've been, because obviously taking away all the modern Yeah,
Emily Paull:I mean, I think, you know, there's the, the element of like, the more things change, the more they stay the same too because mm-hmm. I think some. Ways of thinking would have you imagining that a hundred years ago the past was so different and you can't even, but actually I, people are just people and there would be some things that would be different, but there would be some things that are essentially just the same, like about, you know, the things that teenagers wanna do and their parents aren't looking and about, you know, blokes getting jealous over girls and fighting. Like there's some things that are just universal. And I love this idea that historical fiction is a bridge between now and then. So there may be some things that. Occasionally feeling a little bit too modern or in particular I'm thinking about things to do with views about gender and class and race. And a lot of heroines in historical fiction are very ahead of their time in terms of their, their worldview and their belief in what women can do and be. And I think that's because historical fiction is a bridge, it's a way of doing that time travel. Mm-hmm. So having the setting be as accurate as possible and trying to get that five senses sort of view of the world in is really important. So in, um, I think it was 2014 or something like that, my mom and I went down to Fremantle with the explicit purpose of doing site specific research and bringing out the setting. And she walked around taking photos of old buildings and, you know, I would sort of say like, that house looks like Winston's house. So she'd take a photo of it for me and um, and then she had me lie on the grass up at the round house and. Described to her what I could hear and what I could smell and what I could feel, and I had to have my eyes closed the whole time. So listening to, there's a big flag post behind the round house where there's an old cannon, um, on display, and you could hear the metal part of the, the hoist for the flag hitting the mast of the flag in time with the wind, and you could hear seabirds and ship horns and yeah, it was really, really invaluable. So when you talk about research. Even though most people's minds are going to sitting in a room full of archives going through service records and photos, um, I think that site specific stuff is really important too. And if you can go to the places you're writing about or to what they are now and maybe strip away some of those layers of modernity, definitely do
Mm,
Emily Paull:great
Madeleine Cleary:tips. Um, the way you were talking about it, you, you, it's almost like you are talking about it like a character itself, which I think is wonderful and you are very, you're really so lit up when you talk about it, Emily, so clearly it's something, you know, that's really touched you and been part of your life for so long. Um, there's also a section of the novel set along the Thai railway, um, and um, we won't give any spoilers away, but it's, um, very much focused on the prisoner of war camps there. Mm-hmm. Um, how, what about that, because that, that was, um, uh, quite extraordinary part of the novel and you, you approached it so sensitively as well.
Emily Paull:Yeah, well, I mean, I felt. Very much that I had to do it justice. Um, I sort of stumbled into writing about that because when Winston does enlist, I looked at where he might have ended up. And when I learned about the fall of Singapore and what happened, uh, after February, 1942 to men who had been stationed in that area, that led me to things like the Santa Can Death marches and the um, Thai Biral way and, uh, all sorts of horrible things that happened in that region. And so I originally had written a very sort of brief glossing over of what happened to Winston during the war. I was, you know, quite young when I started the book, and I didn't have any understanding of how I could research that period without getting on a plane and going to Thailand or going to Burma. I had been to Singapore and um, you know, been to Changi Airport, but I'd never been to any of the historical sites and I still haven't been to many of those places. You know, it just isn't. Always possible for writers to go to the places that they want to write about. But I knew that I had to write about it properly and I had to find a way to do it justice. Particularly when in, I think it was 2013, the Narrow Road to the Deep North came out and I went, oh damn, somebody else has written about the Ty Railway. And then he went and won the Bloody Booker prize for it. So, um, you know, my biggest worry when this book came out in April was that people were gonna think I'd copied, even though I'd already been writing about the Ty Railway. So,'cause the TV show, it came out, um, two weeks after my book did. So it was all front of mind for a lot of people, including me. And so. I just had to do as much research as I could by reading firsthand accounts, by reading the War Diaries of Weary Dunlop and the, um, the diaries of somebody called Jack Chalker, who was a British, um, pilot who had been in many of the same camps as Weary Dunlop and had drawn a lot of the scenes. So his artwork and the ways that he hid his artwork. Sort of feed into some parts of Winston's experience and yeah. So I read a lot of self-published accounts of being in those camps, and I read a lot of, um,
Madeleine Cleary:secondary documents. You did such a good job. And I was actually wondering, as I was reading the book, um, obviously Winston goes off to war. Yeah. And I was wondering how you would, because it, the novels told from both Winston and Sarah's perspectives. Yeah. And I was, and, and it, it, and it doesn't switch. It's sort of, you know, they're in chunks and I was wondering how you were going to do that and reflect the experiences. And I think you are absolutely right. You couldn't gloss over something like that. It is transformative. No, it's, um, you know, a really important part of the, his experience and his story. And you did it in such a. Beautiful way. I was just, I couldn't put it down that whole section. I had to read it from start to finish. It was it, and it's, it was almost like a short story in inside a story, um, inside a novel. And I could see your short story skills coming through, I think in that as well. So yeah, you did it a, you did a really good job. Oh, thank you. Um, I would like to talk about. Your experience as a librarian just briefly'cause I know that we're running out of time. Oh, sorry. I talk too much. No, this has been so, so interesting. Um, libraries are just wonderful places. My mom used to be a librarian. Um, I love, I used to go to the libraries every week as a little girl for years and years and years, and I still use libraries. Um, they're also great for authors, um, to work hand in hand with LI libraries as well. It's an opportunity for us to not just promote our books, but um, you know, be part of, I suppose, the writing community and earn a little bit of extra additional income as well. Do you have any top tips for authors and how to work with libraries? Approach libraries, pitch events.
Emily Paull:Yeah, I mean it can really vary depending on how each library does their events, if they're in a position to do their events. Um, I mean, libraries rely on funding. Um, I don't know what it's like in other states, but in Western Australia, public libraries get funding from their local council and also some funding from the state library, and that's sort of, their collection is built using. The two different pots of money. And then maybe they also get funding from their council budget to put towards doing events. Some libraries that money would be split across adults and children's events, and I know that when that's the case, a few places really have to prioritize that. Children's events because there is so much demand from the community for things that support young people and, um, you know, get that lifelong learning thing started. But if you are lucky enough to have a library in your area that puts on events, what I would say is make sure that you have your media release sheet ready to go, which has got your blurb of your book, the cover of your book, your blurb, all of the information like the ISBN and the price point and who to contact about events so that you can, if you're going in, in person, leave a piece of paper that's not just like a scrap with your email address written on it. Um, or you can email it to them. Uh, I would say don't do a bulk email where you put every single library's email address in the two line, and you know, to whom it may concern. And here's the same email, like maybe it'd be a little bit. Strategic about it and identify a few libraries that are ones that do events like the kind of thing that you are proposing, and do them first and, you know, do a few batches, um, rather than that scatter gun approach. And I would also say like, start with libraries where you're a member, where you're an active user. Like start with libraries where you have met some of the staff and you have a bit of a relationship. Um, you know, I have been known when I've had an author approach me when I've been on the front desk. And, and I will say that I don't really have any sway over who gets booked at our libraries. I can suggest people, but there are people higher up in the ranks than me who make these decisions. But I, I will occasionally, if somebody comes in. To talk about their book and say, you know, we want the book to be in the library and we would like to do an event, and here is the information. I will look up and see if they're a member. Mm. Because when I then pass that information on to my bosses, if they are a member, if they're someone who lives in our local community, libraries often have in their collection development guidelines or in their policies, something about supporting members of their community who are writing. You know, we at the library, I work, have a local authors collection. So if you are living in one of the suburbs that is part of our council area and you have written a book, they will put it into the local authors collection, even if it's not strictly relevant to. Any of the other collection development principles, it's about preserving the cultural heritage of our area, and it almost sits with local history in that way. So be familiar with your library. You know, go to other library events, talk to the staff, be friendly. Borrow books from there. Be part of your library community and start with your local library where you're a member of the community because if they can support you, they will try. They're darnedest to, to do something for you.
Madeleine Cleary:Yeah. And librarians are great people, so just chat. It's always good to just go in and have a chat and talk books. Yeah.
Emily Paull:Librarians love talking about books like, please come and talk about books with me. I, I specialize in something called Reader's Advisory, which is basically telling people what to read. So I'm happy to pig in mud.
Madeleine Cleary:That's a fantastic job. I was just reflecting when you were talking about approaching your local library. Um, I, um, booked an event with via local library because, um, I mean, I regularly visit there myself, but my mom was down there and she was just chatting to the librarians and then she pitched my book to the, the, um, lady at the counter who happened to be the events person for the library. That was lucky. I know. And so I got a phone call, a frantic conversation. I was traveling for work and it was my mom, and she said, quick, quick, Madeline, send them an email. They're, they're finalizing their schedule, but you have to email them tonight.
Emily Paull:Yeah, actually that's an important point too. Like the schedule is a big thing. Um, you know, I think six weeks is roughly a good amount of time for the event to be being publicized, to get a decent sized audience. So, uh, you know, if your library service has a, a schedule of how often they put out their event. So if they do a brochure that covers like a two month period, you know, um, October, November, December, I think would be being worked on now. So they've already locked everything in. They're doing the designing now. So I wouldn't go in and expect them to be able to find you a spot in November when it's the first week of October. You need to be prepared to pitch them something. That's going to be in the future at some point. So if your book is coming out in yours was end of April, wasn't it? So you probably would've been looking at speaking to them. End of January, early February, so that you could have all those discussions and then they could have made the decisions by the time they start reserving the spots in that next program. Uh, I think we get approached a lot of people with short timelines and then they get disappointed.
Madeleine Cleary:It's a, it's a really good point, Emily. And actually, like, I'd lined up a couple of libraries, um, by just going to the events the previous year and talking to the librarians about the book coming out. Um, and I think knowing the audience as well and what they're interested in and so, um. And I actually did those for free and I said, I don't, I'm happy to waive the fee, um, because it's during my promo month. Um, and I said, I think that was more, um, amenable than if I had sort of, and because I think libraries, like you said, have limited budget, but I think you also as an author have to make the point that you, you are, you are coming in presenting for free, um, because it's during the promo period because Yeah. Otherwise they might come back and say, do you wanna do another talk for free again? Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Where you might have to, you're not on leave from work and you might have to take that time. So, um, yeah, it's an important point. Um, my local library actually does their, um, scheduling six months out. Six months,
Emily Paull:yeah. Wow. So they would do like a big
Madeleine Cleary:glossy brochure or something? They do. They do, yeah. And um, so I'm talking with them about now, about doing an event in May. So we've lost time in May next year. So it's time. And I
Emily Paull:think, you know, knowing your library service and knowing how they do their events, it's gonna be really obvious to the library staff that you don't know how they do their events if you are not. Aware of that sort of timeline. You know, if you're going in this week to say, let's do something in November. Yeah. They're going, well, you obviously don't know we have a six month lead time for our brochure. Exactly. So you just
Madeleine Cleary:have to ask the questions to go. Yeah. It's nice going in in person I think. And so, so when you
Emily Paull:approached people after the events that you attended as an audience member, were you bringing business cards with you or did you have like a, a fact sheet or what did you do?
Madeleine Cleary:Well, um, I mean it was convenient'cause my mom had actually worked at the branch.
Mm-hmm.
Madeleine Cleary:So when mom and I would, we always go and attend a particular branch's events and so we, I think we were on our third or fourth and mom knew the staff there so that she introduced me. So I had sort of an in, um, and then with the other one where I didn't have an in, um, I. I actually had attended a couple of events and then afterwards sent an email, um, following up and said, yeah, you know, this is who I am. Um, this is what I can add. I know it's similar to some of these events that I've attended. Um, would you be interested, and I think working with your publicist on this as well in the lead up period? Yeah, because I, my publicist did, did pitch to libraries, um, for events. Um, but she didn't actually have any success with that. So it was through like my connections and, and being part of the community that I actually got and booked those events rather than through my publicist. But at every technic time I was telling her, I'm actually gonna go to this library now. And she said, yep, no worries. Yeah, work with
Emily Paull:your publicist because you don't wanna be pitching and they're also pitching and Exactly. Working at cross purposes, but absolutely having your face attached and going and introducing yourself is gonna be so much more. Memorable than an email from a publicist that might not just be about your book. It might be like, here are the four books we have coming out in the next couple of months. Exactly. Yeah,
Madeleine Cleary:exactly. So, no, it's good. Um, I just, I know we're way over time, but I just wanna also talk about your work as a book reviewer as well. How did you get into that?
Emily Paull:Oh gosh. Uh, I had a blog from probably around 2008 as well. When I decided that I was gonna be a serious writer, I set up a blog and it was through like the Google platform for blogging, which is called Blogger. And I just started reviewing the books that I was reading, um, as a way of having content to put on there rather than just these like really earnest diary entries that most of the embarrassing ones have been deleted now. So like, just don't even look, they're not there. Um, but I started occasionally being sent books from publishers because I had done a few reviews and they weren't getting like. Viral levels of, of engagement or anything like that. But, uh, I started to feel like, yeah, okay, I'm kind of good at this. So my friend Simon, is the books editor for the AU review. And I, uh, he either approached me or I asked him how I could get involved. And I think I've been reviewing books for the au review for about eight years now. Um, last year I published about 20 book reviews. This year I'm gonna try and do the same number and I've also started doing TV reviews because in my downtime, after all the promo of doing book tours and things like that, not that I did much of a tour, but it was still exhausting. I was watching ridiculous amounts of tv. So I thought, well, how can I at least turn this into something because I haven't published a book review in a really long time and they're gonna get a little bit anxious that I'm not. Turning anything in. So I reviewed a few TV shows as well. Um, yeah, so it's a, a really fantastic Australian site that mostly focuses on like music and, um, concerts. And they do quite a lot of movie reviews, but we have a really active books department. Um, there's about, oh gosh, I think there's about five of us at the moment who are really actively reviewing books. Um, and because of my connection with the debut crew, I've tried to connect as many debut Australian authors with a reviewer as I can, schedules, permitting. Just so that we can help in any way we can with that discoverability issue.
Madeleine Cleary:Oh, Emily, you are quite a remarkable person, I must say. You, you have so many hands and so many pies, but I think it's, it all centers like what we were saying at the start about, about books. You know, you are such a champion of Australian writing, of debut writing and wa writing. You've um, you're a library, your book advisory, you are writing book reviews. Um, you know, you are an industry citizen. An excellent example of an industry. Love that Industry citizen. That's right. That's Kate Melbourne Hall's term for it. I love that. And you are an excellent example of it. So we're lucky to have you, Emily. Um, in the spirit of that, can you recommend a day novel?
Emily Paull:I mean, it would be remiss of me not to recommend the Butterfly women, um, but because I can see that you're embarrassed. I bought some backups, um, brought by her hand by Marian ta, which is. Violent and brutal. Uh, brutal. Yeah, that's, that's the best word for it. It's beautiful and brutal and, uh, just so deep and yeah, it was incredible. And also, uh, the Daughters of Batavia by Stephanie Cos another WA debut writer. Most people know about the shipwreck of the Batavia off Gerald's coast. And that's a really, really beautiful novelization of some of the things that might have happened on the ship.
Madeleine Cleary:I love it. And you've gone historical fiction to have to Yeah. On theme. Yeah. Okay, so we're gonna end, as we always do with your number one top tip for writers, Emily. Oh gosh.
Emily Paull:Um, pretend to retire, like actually mean it if you need to, but that's true. Yeah. Pretend to retire if you need a break.
Madeleine Cleary:That's a great way to end it, I think. Um, and it's, it's an interesting concept as well, pretending to retire as well. You like, you know, that you're always gonna come back, but giving yourself a break is really important. Yeah. And 17 years in the making, uh, the distance between dreams is now available and out everywhere. I highly recommend you, you pick up a copy. It's a beautiful book. Um, and Emily is a wonderful industry citizen, so thank you for joining us, Emily. Thank you so much for having me.
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