The Book Deal
Motivation and inspiration for emerging writers, helping them pave their own pathway to publishing success.
The Book Deal
Editing: spreadsheets, reading backwards, rulers and when readers point out errors
Hosts Tina Strachan, Madeleine Cleary, and Natasha Rai catch up on their busy lives, upcoming events, and delve into a detailed discussion about their editing processes and tips. They provide personal experiences, practical advice like using a ruler to read line by line, and even reading a manuscript backward to catch errors. Special shout-outs include celebrating Dyslexia Awareness Month and recognizing their supportive patrons, with a particular mention of Christine Newell. Additionally, Rebecca Grant shares insights into her new picture book, Potion Commotion.
00:00 Welcome to the Book Deal Podcast
00:29 Meet the Hosts
01:33 Upcoming Live Episode Plans
02:55 Listener Stats and Shoutouts
05:42 Author Burnout and Health
09:03 Event Preparations and Challenges
17:12 The Importance of Printing Out Your Manuscript
20:11 Rebecca Grant Introduces 'Potion Commotion'
21:28 Using Spreadsheets for Plotting and Structuring
24:38 Editing Failures and Lessons Learned
29:59 Top Tips for Editing Your Manuscript
35:04 Dyslexia Awareness and Special Formats
35:44 Thank You to Our Supporters
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You can find out more about Tina, Madeleine and Natasha and follow their journeys here:
Tina Strachan (@td_strachan) • Instagram photos and videos
Tina Strachan children's book author
Madeleine Cleary (@madeleineclearywrites) • Instagram photos and videos
Madeleine Cleary | Author
Natasha Rai (@raiwriting) • Instagram photos and videos
Natasha Rai | Author | Mentor
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This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books. We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal. So no matter what's. Stage of writing your at. We've got you covered. I'm Tina Strachan. I'm Madeline Cleary. And I'm Natasha Rai. And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors one deal at a time. The book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners, the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
Tina Strachan:Hello everybody. My name is Tina Strachan and I'm so excited to be here with my most wonderful co-hosts, Madeline Cleary and Natasha Rai. Hello? Hi. Hi. Oh gosh, ladies, it's been a whole nother month since we've caught up and we've all been super duper busy, and I miss you girls.
Natasha Rai:Aw, I miss you too. We haven't all caught up, the three of us in person yet.
Tina Strachan:No,
Natasha Rai:that's good. Hang on. What
Tina Strachan:have we not? Oh my gosh, no. Oh, that's shocking. That's horrifying. Oh, this is gonna have to be a, um, yes. That's gonna be a monumental occasion where we do do that. And we might have some news about that maybe in our next step.
Natasha Rai:Oh, I hope so. Oh, I
Tina Strachan:hope so. Maybe we can put it out.
Madeleine Cleary:Should we put it out to the podcast? Gods? If you have venue in anywhere, really we go anywhere. We'll go anywhere that does podcast live episodes in December where we really wanna do a podcast live episode for Christmas. So if you know a venue that wants to host us for a small fee, please let us know.
Tina Strachan:Please, please let us know. And then you can all come along and ask us all the questions that you have about writing and publishing. And we'll maybe, hopefully have some, some advice to give. Yeah, or we'll just have lots of fun anyway.
Natasha Rai:We'll get lots of writers in and we can sell lots of books for Christmas. That should also be a thing. We do a Christmas market,
Tina Strachan:Christmas shopping, that's it. Oh, well, hopefully. Yes. So definitely let us know. Reach out. But um, apart from that, yeah, we're just gonna have a, a bit of a chat, a bit of a catch up. I really wanna know where you girls are. Are at, um, checking back in since we chatted last month. Um, and then I also wanted to ask some questions about editing because I think we're all deep in editing at the moment in various different stages. Mm-hmm. Um, as well as writing new words'cause we like to do a few different things. Um, so yeah, so I have some questions about that. Um, but first, you know, what I wanted to do, um, ladies, I don't know if you've looked at this, but you know, we use a buzzsprout, right? For our. For hosting our podcast episodes. And they have this really cool thing that I actually just love looking at, which I can't find now. And, and Tina is
Madeleine Cleary:our stats person. She's always telling us the stats and Yeah. Cash and I just have no idea.
Tina Strachan:Yeah,
Natasha Rai:I know. We just go, yay. Every time. Mm-hmm.
Tina Strachan:I love, I love the stats. We know this. I love a spreadsheet. Um, I have a new one to tell you girls about later as well. Oh my gosh. So you get excited. Um, okay. So. But in our app, it's really cool'cause it tells us the new locations of like the, the, the last five new locations of people that are listening to the podcast. Oh. I just find it so interesting and so cool. It also tells you what they're listening to. So, um, shout out to. Our listeners in, and I'm, I'm certain I'm gonna say this wrong, you girls also, we also get points for whoever's actually been to this city.
Madeleine Cleary:Okay. Oh, I love the game. Oh, here we go. Yeah,
Tina Strachan:because we're all quite well traveled, right? I, I get zero points for this first one. You have to guess where this one is actually, uh, Marson in earth trick. I have
Natasha Rai:no idea.
Tina Strachan:No. Is that
Natasha Rai:in Germany?
Tina Strachan:No, I know. I see where you're going with that though. Uh, it's in the Netherlands.
Madeleine Cleary:Oh, course. Yeah. So shout out to
Tina Strachan:our Netherlands listeners.
Natasha Rai:Hello? Sorry. I said Germany and not Netherlands.
Tina Strachan:It looks beautiful. I actually Googled it, um, and they were listening to your most recent episode, uh, Natasha, with Angie Faye Martin. Aw. Aw. For listening. Yeah, we had lots, lots of them today. Also listening to that episode was listeners in Worthing, west Sussex. Whoa. Anyone, anyone been there? I think I have been there. Mm. Not points for Natasha. You'll be done. Natasha, you're winning. I know. And, uh, surely in Lancaster. Oh. Anyone been there? I've,
Natasha Rai:I've, I've, I've been to Lancashire too, so, I mean, well, I lived in the UK for quite a while, so.
Tina Strachan:Okay. Right. Winner. Winner. All right. Well, has anyone been to Clearfield in Utah?
Natasha Rai:No, I've
Tina Strachan:been to Utah. Me. Well, there you go. So you do get a point for that. And they were listening to Holly Brom's, um, episode that we did. Excellent. Um, a couple months ago. Um, yeah, so shout out to all our listeners overseas. It's so cool to see those new cities pop up and, yeah. It's just great that it's, that it's getting out there, getting around the world. It's really cool. So that's my stats update. I'm not doing
Natasha Rai:an international trip one time book deal podcast on the road.
Tina Strachan:Oh yes, that'd be good. Wouldn't that? Uh, the dream we can keep dreaming, dreaming. But, uh, okay, so I wanted to check in with you ladies, see where you're at. Uh, it's been another busy month, and, um, Madeline, last time we spoke to you, you were, or still had another busy month. You've been pretty nonstop. Um, and the, the juggle of health and workload was sort of taking a toll. Um, we chatted a lot last time about, um. Uh, you know, burnout or the burnout. So how are, how are you going, are you feeling a bit better? How has it been?
Madeleine Cleary:Oh, it, the burn the burnout episode was very timely for me. Mm-hmm. I think while, while we're discussing it, I was probably very, very close to burnout, if not at burnout. When I said that to my friend, I think a few nights ago, um, at book club, I said, oh, yeah, I was close to Ben. She's like. Mads, you were at burnout. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, um, yeah, so I, I have been quite sick. I've just been, you know, getting repeat things, prolonged sicknesses, and I think that's a sign for your body to say you have to rest. So, um, yeah, it hasn't been great. And. Uh, I think as well with the writing, I had this vision in my mind that the manuscript would be done and edited by the end of September. And of course now it's October, it is not done. Um, it's getting there. It's getting there, but it's not done.'cause I just, you know, even when I'm sick, like I still keep pushing and working and I'm sure a lot of writers understand that the lure too. In patience and listening to your body, um, and all things, all the advice that Tash provided in our last, like, catch up on author burnout. So I really had to pay attention and listen to it. So it has been difficult, but, um, I feel like I'm on the other side. I've, you know, took a, a bit of time off work and writing and just yeah, had some. Just. Watching crappy movies, which I never get to do, and reading books and sitting on the couch for a bit and I felt better, but, mm. Um, I mean, that's just a temporary measure. I have to sort of make changes now in my lifestyle, I think, to, to avoid it. But yeah, I've got a few more events coming up in October, and then after that though, it. Really nice and quiet. So I think I'll be able to Yeah, find some space. Um, so yeah, if you are in Sydney, I think it'll, it'll be on the night, I think the day that this comes out. So if you're in Sydney, 16th of October, I'll be there. And then I'm in Ballarat on the Thursday, the 23rd of October for an event. If you're in Ballarat with Holly Bauer, actually, who she's gonna be. My in convo partner and then Dandenong Literary Festival as well, which is just up the road, which will be really fun. So I've got lots of like, fun things to look forward to. So, yeah. And then in terms of the writing, um, I have 17 pages left to edit of Oh, draft. Oh, so close. So close. I'm excited. So yes, that's, that's pretty much where I'm What about you Tash, though? How has your last month been? Uh, uh,
Natasha Rai:yeah, it's been so busy. Um, and so I've, I mentioned it in my substack today that the time boxing has really helped me because, um, now I'm not as stressed when I don't get to something.'cause I haven't put it in my diary. So if it's in there, I'm working on it. Um, so lots of prep. So last month we had the Emerging Writers Festival, and then this month, um. People in Newcastle. I'm gonna be books of the BOLO at Club Lan. That sounds amazing. On the 14th. Yeah, it's, so, it's in conversation with Catherine McLean, who's the director of the Hunter Writers Center. And then I'm going to be at Blue Mountains Writers Festival in Canberra Writer's Festival. So Canberra Writers Festival is first, um, and then the 22nd to the 26th of October. And then the uh, blue Mountains Writers Festival, which is. 31st of October to the 2nd of November or thereabouts. You gonna be busy has Yeah. Yeah. I've got like four books to read over the next two weeks, so. Okay. I'll get there. I know, I'll, um, actually we were talking about this in our debut crew. Do you have to read, if you're on a panel with other writers at a festival, do you have to read everyone's books? I like to. Um, this time I, that's my, definitely my aim, but this time there are some priorities for me because I'm moderating a panel and, um, I'm doing a, like a two hander where it's just me and another person, or Steve Minot actually at, at Blue Mountain. So obviously we're gonna be in conversation with each other about our books. So. And to, yeah. Obviously I need to, I've already read his book, but I'm gonna reread it to, you know, have an intelligent conversation because I've been to events where writers have made jokes about not preparing, like especially the person, yeah. I won't name names, but yeah. Oh, so the interviewer. The interviewers make made jokes about, oh, I'm so underprepared, and I'm like, uh, this is not good. Yeah, that's it. Doesn't much confidence does it?
Tina Strachan:It's a really thing. Doesn't say, isn't it too, that's being easy, but
Natasha Rai:also it doesn't show the respect to the people who've like, given out their time and, and maybe paid money for a ticket to come hear someone speak. It's like, well,'cause that's who you're doing it for really, you know? Yeah. It's fun to interview another person, but if you've got an audience that they, they are the ones who wanna hear something about it. Mm
Tina Strachan:mm Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're an amazing interviewer, Natasha. We know that, so I'm sure those events, I'm sure those events are gonna be incredible. I love the idea of books at the bolo. I'm gonna start that here, I think on the Gold Coast. Yeah.
Natasha Rai:Do
Tina Strachan:it. Do it.
Natasha Rai:It sounds so cool. Yeah, because you just go for your dinner, like just book a table and you go with your book club or your family and you just have a great night and hear someone talk about a book. What's a bowler? A what? You don't know what a bolo is. Is that not a, I don't know. Is it a Victorian thing? I don't know. I've never heard like, you know, like Like bowl? A bowling bowl, like a bowling
Tina Strachan:green. Oh, I don't, and it's like the restauranty, it's like the restauranty bit. Yeah,
Natasha Rai:like the bistro bit. It's
Tina Strachan:so, yeah. Didn't
Natasha Rai:have that in Melbourne. Maybe they don't have outside.
Tina Strachan:It's too rainy, it's too many gracious warnings. Um, few got bowling greens, surely.
Madeleine Cleary:Yeah. I dunno. Out of the bolo scene. Yes. That's it. Well, we have,
Tina Strachan:do you have barefoot bowls? Yeah,
Natasha Rai:yeah,
Tina Strachan:yeah. Okay. Right. Barefoot bowl. I've never heard of what we're gonna make you do next time you come up this way.
Natasha Rai:Oh gosh. There were a few in Canberra that we did and they had bars attached to it. I don't
Tina Strachan:remember. Yes, that's what it is. It's so, it's like the green and then it's like the little indoor bit where you, where you grab a pub meal. Yeah,
Natasha Rai:maybe I'm just, yeah, maybe I'm just tired and don't remember, but I'm, I don't think so. So maybe it's not a Victorian thing. I don't know.
Tina Strachan:Mm. Maybe that's where we need to have our Christmas live show at the bolo it all, it's all going together. You've
Madeleine Cleary:gotta say in that accent, at the bowl, at the bolo, at the, yeah, of course. I'm also asking this on behalf of our international listeners. Yes, of course.
Tina Strachan:You're right. You're right. Apologies. I don't know if they have them in Netherlands, barefoot, let us know. They def,
Natasha Rai:they definitely, well, the Australians have taken it to the UK so they, they'll recognize it. Of course, of course. Maybe it's horrible Aussie thing. But anyway, so in Lincoln Shear and, uh, well, west Sussex, they'll be all over the bolos. Maybe, maybe, maybe not.
Tina Strachan:But you know, with events. So you was saying like, it is a lot of prep, isn't it? Like Yeah. You know, people, you know, turn up to these things and maybe don't realize that there's a lot of prep that goes into it. So it's lots of fun, isn't it? It's a really amazing time when you get there and you feel, um, so privileged to be there and to be chatting with someone. But it's a lot of, it's a lot of background work, isn't it? Yeah. For the, you know, hour or so that you're up there for.
Natasha Rai:Yeah, exactly. But I mean, I, I do enjoy it. It's just, um, when I said yes to these things, I hadn't fully realized that they were gonna be so close together. Mm-hmm. And of course, you know, I'm still working and haven't taken any time off work, so I can't afford to, so, and also I'm trying to write. I'm not trying to write, I'm writing. Um, so yeah, all of that is in the mix too. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I think, um, you kind of underestimate the physical, the physicality of it, uh, because you, you're traveling to festival. Yeah. So it's not just the one hour that you're there for, um, you're in a different place, so you're sleeping in a different bed. You don't exactly. You get a lot, you are really, um, on a lot like a heightened Yeah. Buzzing. Yeah. It's a sensory overload, isn't it? Absolutely. You are on, on, on, and, and it's not just for that one hour, it's the, all the social stuff afterwards. And um, and yeah, I find it difficult to like sleep after events. Like really difficult. Mm-hmm. And not just festivals, but any events that I do, I'm just so wired afterwards. So yeah. There is a physical toll, I think, to your body that you can't underestimate. Yeah, that's right. But they're fun. What about you, Tina? Yeah, I'm fun. Yeah. How
Tina Strachan:are
Natasha Rai:you?
Tina Strachan:Yeah. Yeah. I've had a. Interesting month too. Um, I'm writing. Oh, I'm editing actually. So that's why I did wanna pick your, your lady's brains about your, um, your editing tips and techniques. But so it's, but it's otherwise been a relatively quieter month. I mean, we've had school holidays here, so we've been. Spent some time in Byron Bay and down the beach and everything. Um, uh, I went to, uh, Bethany Love Ridge's book launch for Harper Wells Renegade Timeline Officer, which was amazing and incredible and was also her 40th birthday. So happy birthday Bethany. Um, yes, that was really fun. That was really nice. And yeah, just got to catch up with lots of, um, lots of the Queensland, um, author crew, which was. Great. Um, but yeah, apart from all that, just I've been editing something that I realize now. I started writing two years ago. Um, oh yeah. But I mean, I also wrote three books in, in between that, so it's, it's taken me a while, but, um, it's, so I'm getting to that point now. I don't exactly know how many pages I have left Madeline, but I think it's not, it's probably like, um, only like eight. Scenes left to edit. Um, and then my plan was, um, my plan was then I was just going to print it hard copy. Mm-hmm. Give it a read through and then, you know, make any edits on the hard copy, fix that on the, on the, on, you know, the Word document and then, and that that was gonna be it. And then I was gonna put a pin in it and then. You know, do what I need to do with it and take the next step with it. Um, because I have realized now that you've got a, otherwise I'll keep tinkering. I could tinker forever. Right? And but's, one thing I have learned is to stop tinkering.
Madeleine Cleary:I wouldn't even, like, I don't think I would even print it out at this stage. I wouldn't do that until I'm happy with. The overall like until my editors maybe looked at it and had and had some structural comments and feedback.'cause I feel like I tinker a lot when I print it out and hard copy. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And I think the tinkering is not good. I've just realized how well I tin. It's so much with the butterfly women before I submitted to publishers, which I think is fine. Yeah. Because, you know, but now I'm in a stage where I'm just like, oh, is that where I wanna put my time and effort? Because this might all be deleted. Maybe I'm got PTSD from our, my, my structural edits. Oh, I know
Tina Strachan:what you mean. To be honest though, I, I know what you mean. I'm not, I, I. Hmm. I am printing it out though to try and pick up some bigger stuff, not necessarily the spelling mistakes and things, uh, which I will catch as well. I think I just need it off the screen. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's just blurring into one. Now I need it off the screen. I need it printed out. I need to sit down with my piece of paper and my, and my pen and my highlighter and um, just. Just look at it that way. And because there's a, there's a few things with this one that I've had to change over the course of time, like, um, which I don't often do, but I did have to think about this one a little bit more. And so I think there's some maybe consistency things that I need to check for. And I need to just read it in a flow like, like it is a book. I just need to read. I mean, it's a book, do you know what I mean? But read it in a, almost like in a hard copy instead of the screen, because it's just, you process it differently. Do you think, Tash, you're not sure I get that because that's exactly
Natasha Rai:what I do, so yeah. I do, I write a draft. I don't actually go back and read over it while I'm writing it. I just write, when I finish it, I print it out and I read it, like you said, for the flow. And I literally make notes as I go and I will, and I refuse to edit anything. I just make the notes like, this bit needs this, this bit, but I just keep reading.
Tina Strachan:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Natasha Rai:Until I get to the end. So I find that really useful because then because it's printed out. Um, and I'm just making the notes of what I need to beef up or take out because it's not on the screen. I can't do that work yet until I've read the whole thing and got the idea of the shape of it. So I find that really helpful for me'cause of the way I. To my process, like my writing. Yeah. Gosh, I admire you for that. That's, that's an amazing willpower because you'd be so tempted to just jump on your laptop and start tinkering when you come across something, you're like, oh no, I need to fix that. But no, you can't.'cause you're looking at big picture kind of flow stuff. Mm. That's interesting.
Tina Strachan:I have, and I mean, and everybody, everybody works differently. Everybody's brain works differently. Exactly. Every, everybody's flow is differently. But, um, yeah, I like that. And I have heard before, uh, I think it was an actual editor, um. Speak. Yeah. Speaking about what they do, and I think she said, you know, I read it once and I just read the whole thing and I'm, I'm not looking for spelling mistakes, I'm not looking for grammatical errors. I'm not looking for any other, I'm just looking to be like, is this story here in my head? Is it flowing in my head and has it, is there any major issues with this overall story? Cool. Great. That I make those notes and then I come back. Actually, it might have even been my editor that made, made notes about it and then I come back and she's like, then I look for like all the. Smaller stuff, but if the overall story's great, that's cool. We don't need to do like those big structural things. But then I come back and I go through and I look for that smaller stuff. So it's almost like multiple different ways of looking at the same document. I get that. That's, I do that.
Rebecca Grant:Hello, I'm Rebecca Grant, and I'm excited to share with you my very first picture book, Potion Commotion. It's illustrated by the talented Nina Nil and published by Affirm Press. It tells the story of Nel the Witch, who with the help of her dragon, creates a magical potion, but things go wrong when she makes a mistake with the spell. And her mixed up potion causes a chaotic commotion. A bubble rises from the pot and starts to trap a whole cast of characters inside of it. And as the bubble grows, it traps more and more creatures, a mermaid, a ghost, even a giant squeezes in until finally, it captures Nel and the dragon. When Nel waves a wand and pops the bubble, the true extent of the commotion is revealed. But you'll need to read the book to find out what that is. Potion Commotion is written in cumulative rhyme. Building up throughout the story, creating a whirlwind of magical mayhem. We've included a recipe at the end of the book for those little readers who would like to create their own special potion. Potion. Commotion is out now, and I hope you love it as much as I do.
Madeleine Cleary:Well, Tina, you'll be proud because, um, so I wrote my draft zero and then as I've been editing it, I've been summarizing each chapter in a spreadsheet. Ah, yes. And noting a spreadsheet. I'm spreadsheet. So proud of you. You Excel spreadsheet. I know you would be, I've got a timeline in there. For each, each chapter what, what, what, what timeline is. And I also have the different,'cause it's a murder mystery. I have all the different plot lines in a, in their own separate columns. So every time it hits one of the plot lines, the red, red, you know, herrings or whatever. Or write yes. About what that is. Perfect. My gosh. And so then I can see, oh my gosh, structurally, I know this is cool. I can then see structurally. Where I've left it too long, like I haven't mentioned mm-hmm. A particular thread
Tina Strachan:mm-hmm. For a
Natasha Rai:while. And so then I know I have to go and insert something, you know, and I can see the flow of the, the reveal of the information.
Tina Strachan:Yes.
Madeleine Cleary:Um, I learn this from Ruby. Yes. Um, my publisher mm-hmm. Because she does this. Mm. And she did this for the butterfly woman for me. Mm. Mm-hmm. Like, she sent it to me and I was like, this is brilliant. Like, I, I am gonna do this. So, so good. I can't do it for my draft zeroes because that's full creative flow. Yes, and it's really helped me, like there have been so many plot points and plot holes and threads that have gone nowhere, and I've figured that out because I'm doing it. Ah,
Tina Strachan:so yeah. Yeah, yeah. And you know what, from that, you will, you might find the next time there's less potholes and there's less, you know, things that you've missed.'cause you're, they're learning it and you're innately feeling it as you're, as you're going through. Oh, that's incredible. That's so good. And you know, I even use that because like you were saying, yes. Not for your Dr. Zero draft.'cause that's just getting the story out. Um, I've even used it for things like, um. If there's a thread of a story potentially or a character that I'm trying to, that maybe isn't beefed up up enough, I've even like when I've gone through, noted where I've put that particular character or noted where I've. Um, taken that particular plot line, even if it's a small one. And because, you know, sometimes in your head you, you think it's in there quite clearly and quite strongly, but then on the paper it's not, for whatever reason, you just haven't spent the time to put it down or you've taken it out through other edits or something. Mm-hmm. And just not realize that now it just doesn't feel like a strong plot line anymore. But if, but even just like ticking off, just even just basic, yes, I included it here, or no, I didn't. And also vice versa. Sometimes I think, have I repeated that? A couple of times like, have I have, I said this same thing too many times and just kind of worked it out, doing it that way. So yeah, it's, it's helpful. That's really good.
Madeleine Cleary:Spreadsheets, oh my gosh. Spreadsheets. So, and writing things out. Handwriting I find hard are easy, like when I've got plot. Hold. Yes, yes. I figure out, I just start handwriting the answer and then it just comes to, it just comes, it flows.
Tina Strachan:Yes.
Natasha Rai:I dunno. Hundred percent.
Tina Strachan:Magic. Magic. It's a connection between the pen and the paper and your brain. It's
Natasha Rai:crazy, it's
Tina Strachan:wild. Um, it's a creative flow.
Natasha Rai:I do have an editing fail story though.
Tina Strachan:Um mm-hmm. Share. I I did. Please. I was just about to ask you.'cause editing's hard, you know, and you, you know, you do it yourself. Look, we're talking about the multiple times that we are doing it, and then if you're published or you're paying editor, you get. Editor to do it. And they run, they do the whole read. And then you get, you have a type set that reads it. You have a line editor that reads it, your publisher reads it, maybe another editor reads it, you read it again 13 times. You read it in type set, you read it in a hard copy, and then it goes to print. And then sometimes though, you know, do you get, you miss something, you miss something. And,
Madeleine Cleary:you know, um, yeah, I found that out today. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad I, I actually, um, I said to the, sorry I had a, um. A message today from a reader and she, she said to me, um, loved the book however, and I was like, oh, good start. Good start. Um, I found three minor errors in, in the text. She's got an eagle eye. And so, uh, she sent me a photo of all of the errors and she circled them. Oh. Um, and there were things like, there was one where there was an extra is, you know, oh, um, there was one where I should have said. Unannounced, but it was written announced, so the article was missed. Um, and then there was another one where it should have been his sister, but I'd written her sister, so, oh yes. And see, I've
Tina Strachan:read your book. I didn't pick up on any of that. Well, I'm
Natasha Rai:glad
Tina Strachan:she should be an editor. She should be a copy
Madeleine Cleary:editor. I know. It was amazing. So anyway, it was very timely because, um, in exciting news, the butterfly women is going to be format, which. For those who know. That's awesome. Yeah, it's really cool. And it's, feels like it's coming around very quickly, but it's gonna be so B format for those who don't know, it's the smaller size of the book. So there's the trade, which is the larger one, and then it's going to a smaller format. And they do that, I think,'cause it's more cost effective. So yeah, it's, it's cheaper. It's like 22.99 instead of 34.99. Um, and it'll be released 31st of December at the end of the year, which is gonna be cool. But, um, I was able to forward those, um, errors to my, to the editor who's managing the B format and he's like, yep, you've got time. Don't, no worry. So he went and changed the type set today, so, so that's good. It was good. Oh, really? Just like that. Oh, cool. That's so good. Yeah. Yeah. So able to pick it up. Um, and I mean, like I said to the lady, I was like, oh, thank you. Like I'm really appreciative of it. Yeah. Yeah. But I also said that this is also proof that it's not AI generators. Yeah. Yeah.
Tina Strachan:Oh wow. So I think, thank you Eagle Eye reader for I know on that and you know, there would be mistakes. I'm certain of it in every single book that's published. Of course there Isly, I've seen major ones like in
Madeleine Cleary:some books, but I mean like, it's just it, you can't help it. You've and I, for those who don't know what the process is, like the type, you get this type set. Which is the final proof in A PDF. So it's not in a Word document, it's in A PDF. You're making changes by adding notes, like little comments. You, you can't make changes to the text, and so someone then needs to put those comments into the type set. So it's not like you can track changes or anything. It is really
Tina Strachan:difficult. It's really, especially if you're doing like, um, full, I, I use a lot of commas and, and sometimes I like take'em out and if you're literally going in just to, that you have to zoom into that one little full stop or comma and then like highlight it, but you're crossing it out at the same time. But when you're crossing out a full stop that like full stops, it's so tiny, they don't go and see the cross out. It's, and my computer always has a bit of a. Meltdown when I'm doing it because it gets really slow. Because there's literally thousands of notes. Yes. In in the, in the song. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. So it's tricky. But I've heard, um, there's some people that still do it on hard copy, don't they? There's been some people in the day crew that have had hard copy
Natasha Rai:Yeah.
Tina Strachan:And they, yeah, yeah, yeah. Do,
Natasha Rai:yeah. There has,
Tina Strachan:hasn't it, Natasha? Yeah. And write it out and send it back, I believe. Or scan it and send it back. Wow. Yeah.
Natasha Rai:I do love it anyway. So have you guys found any areas in your books or is it just me so far?
Tina Strachan:I don't think I've read the full books. Well, I had, I don't know, have you read your books? One's told you no one since you've actually had a print one? No, no one's told me. I have not read my book. No. No, no. Um, no one's told me, but you know. Feel free to share it so I can fix it please. Um, but I'm certain of it, but I've certainly written, um, things for work. I write a lot of technical documents for work and we have a very. Well distributed technical document that I was in charge of doing the full edit. I pretty much wrote most of it, but did the, you know, meant to, you know, final sign offs and all those things, and it was three years later we had a new staff member and they read it for the first time and they're like. You know that this is wrong, and it's just like, oh my God, really like the amount of people that have read this. And we just, just, this completely new person with new fresh eyes was just like that pointed out, this massive error that none of us ever, ever saw. So yeah, it happens all the time. Mm-hmm. Fresh eyes, that's the, the key I think. Yeah. Okay. So ladies, um, if you have one top tip then for, for editing woes, um, what would it be? What have you got for us Natasha?
Natasha Rai:Okay. My top tip is, um, when you are doing your final, final, final proofread, print the whole thing out and use a ruler to literally go line by line reading every single word out loud. And if you find that you are reading really fast, you've gotta go back to the start of the sentence and slow it down so that you're reading every single word. Mm-hmm. I found at that late stage two or three errors and you know, as we've just said, so many people had read it like there was a character name that was wrong and so many people had missed it, including me.'cause I've read it so many times. And, and when read it out loud, you can get a sense of. Not only the mistakes, but things like repeat words, which are so easy to skip over, like is, is you know, how you said there was an extra Is Madeline. So, um, yeah, that's my top tip. So save that till the very end or the very last time you can possibly make a change. And that includes if you are like, if, if it's not for a publisher and you're submitting to a competition. Or is submitting to a publisher. My top tip is do that just before you submit so that if there is something you can fix it.
Tina Strachan:Mm-hmm. I like that. Yeah. Getting down to the nitty gritty. What about you, Madeline? Um. So, yeah, I
Madeleine Cleary:agree with Natasha and actually I did do that. So I think my top tip would be um,'cause I thought that, I remember going through the proofing process and I actually, the man, my manuscript went back to structurals in the middle of the final proof. So I'd done the final proof and then it came back to me because they'd noticed something structural in it. And so I had to make changes in the type set. So then I had to go through another proofing process. So I was pretty exhausted I think by the end of it. Um, and sort of tearing my hair out. And I remember at the time thinking the worst possible thing that can ever happen is for someone to pick up an error and,'cause I know it's on me. But the funny thing is, is when it actually happened, when someone did pick up these minor errors, I actually was like, oh, I'm okay with it. So I would say that. Don't. If you're a, a debut writer for next year and you're freaking out listening to this, it's not such a big of a deal. Yeah. It's so not a big deal. No. So don't stress too much about it. I mean, do everything you can possibly do to pick up every single thing you can. And that's, I, and I know that I, I did that. But when it does happen, it's actually not that bad.
Tina Strachan:So that's my tip.
Natasha Rai:Yeah.
Tina Strachan:What about, there's a point, there is a point where you just can't see it. Yeah, exactly.
Natasha Rai:You cannot,
Tina Strachan:yeah. And you're reading the story, but it's just all, it's like it's already in your head, so you Exactly. Reading the words like
Natasha Rai:500 times. You're like, please let this end. I know you are like, this is the worst book ever.
Tina Strachan:I love you my child,
Natasha Rai:but please, I never
Tina Strachan:wanna see you again. Oh, so what about me? Um, I. Uh, yes, I agree with all your editing. Wonderful advice. Um, but one that I just remembered was something that was shared with us at a conference recently by an editor, and she, what she does is she reads it back to front. Oh God. She starts from, and this would, this is so clearly this is not for, um, for, uh, flow or structural'cause that would be weird. No, just for, if you're really concerned about.
Natasha Rai:Um,
Tina Strachan:can I just ask,
Natasha Rai:when you say back to front, do you mean like chapter wise? Like you read the last chapter or literally sentence level back to front. Uh,
Tina Strachan:page level. Back to front. So start on the last page.
Natasha Rai:Oh, okay.
Tina Strachan:Read. So, so her theory is, is that you are not just. Just re looking over the words and your brain is filling in the gaps.'cause you know what's coming next and you kind of do,'cause you, you've got one page and so you kind of get it, but then you go back to the next page and it, the storyline's all modeled up. So the words should sort, sort of, kind of, oh, jump out at you. Like, it's like they can completely different. You can't. I like that. Yeah. There you go. So you can do your ruler trick back to front. Love it. I mean, you could de sentence upside down as well. T just get everything.
Madeleine Cleary:Catherine, you know, Catherine Collette, actually her advice was, don't use a ruler because you can see the words below. She suggested that's why you use a wooden ruler. Oh, wouldn't, well, she, she just, just suggest a piece of paper so it just completely blocks out the entire page. So your own Oh yeah. You could do that. Yeah. That that was her at top tip. Not sure if that's useful or not. I think I broke my ruler, so I did have to go to a page, like a paper,
Tina Strachan:anything really. Just yeah. To cover. Just
Natasha Rai:anything. Yeah. Yeah. Oh,
Tina Strachan:that's editing. Editing. That's amazing. Uh, thank you ladies for your tips. I just wanted to have one last little shout out. Um, that this month is actually dyslexia awareness month. So, you know, especially with all this talk about editing and using rulers and things to read is sometimes that's. A tip. There's special rulers for people with dyslexia, but a lot of people don't know this, but some books are actually printed in formats that make it easier for people with dyslexia to read. So, um, both my books that are out, both the Wild Zoo books are printed in this format and you can get it at the libraries as well. So if, um, you know, anyone who's, um, has dyslexia or struggling to read a little bit, um, this can be helpful. So there's quite a few titles and you can check out your local libraries, uh, for them.
Natasha Rai:Wonderful.
Tina Strachan:Amazing.
Madeleine Cleary:And we should also do a one last shout out as well to our Patreon supporters, our patrons. Thank you so much for supporting us. Um, it means the world. And, um, yeah, just a little special shout out to Christine Newell who has been on our podcast, and thank you, Christine has supporting the podcast. So thank you, Christine. Thank you. See you next month ladies. Bye. Bye.
Tina Strachan:Thank you for listening to the book Deal podcast. We're able to bring you these weekly writerly chats because of our amazing patrons. Join the TBD family by becoming a member of our Patreon community@patreon.com slash the book deal podcast. And if you love the pod, please give us a rating or review. And don't forget to follow us on Instagram and Facebook.