The Book Deal
Motivation and inspiration for emerging writers, helping them pave their own pathway to publishing success.
The Book Deal
Nadia Mahjouri on finding writing support and submitting work to as many opportunities as possible
Natasha Rai interviews Nadia Mahjouri, a Moroccan Australian writer, about her debut novel 'Half Truth'. Nadia shares the journey of crafting her novel from mixing memoir and fiction, drawing from her personal experiences to the trials and triumphs of securing a book deal. She discusses her creative process, the challenges of fictionalizing real events, and the importance of emotional truth in storytelling. Nadia also provides valuable advice on how to navigate the writing and publishing process, emphasizing the significance of persistence, seeking feedback, and the willingness to put one's work out there despite the setbacks.
00:00 Welcome to the Book Deal Podcast
00:56 Introducing Nadia Mahjouri
02:00 Nadia's Debut Novel: Half Truth
04:19 The Journey of Writing Half Truth
06:50 From Memoir to Fiction
13:56 The Path to Publication
14:03 Claiming the Writer Identity
25:21 Building a Writing Community
28:01 Post-Assessment Actions
28:32 Navigating Feedback and Courses
30:56 The Road Trip and Penguin Submission
32:12 Facing Rejections and Ghosting
33:36 Literary Speed Dating and Agent Search
37:19 Publishable Program and Mentorship
39:37 Final Offers and Negotiations
45:46 Reflections and Advice for Writers
49:25 Closing Thoughts and Intentions
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Madeleine Cleary:where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books.
Natasha Rai:We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals to bring you the best
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Natasha Rai:Nadia Mahjouri is a Moroccan Australian writer, counselor, and group facilitator. Her professional background is in health policy, governance and academia, where her research focused on ethics and feminist philosophy. She's the host of the award-winning podcast, the Whole Truth, motherhood and the Writing Life. In this podcast, Nadia interviews authors about how they manage to keep writing while living in the messy middle of family life, work, and creativity. Half Truth is her debut novel. Nadia and her husband live in Hobart, Nepal, Luna, with varying combinations of their family, which includes three young adults, two school-aged children, and a black Labrador puppy called Russell Sprout. Good morning, Nadia Mahjouri. Welcome to the book to podcast. Thank you so much. It's great to have you. It's like long overdue. I think we talked about this months ago. Yeah. So, no, thank you. Yeah. So, half Truth, your debut novel came out in February of this year. Can we start, and you must be a pro at this now with your elevator pitch. It's
Nadia Mahjouri:funny, I Avery, I still actually don't feel like I am good at this, which is just, you know, not okay. Really. But, um, I'll give it a go. Okay. I hear some people who, whose, whose pictures really are, um. So Schmick and I, every time kind of have to go, well, what's the book about again? So it is the story. Half Truth, um, is the story of two women who are, you know, from very different worlds, very different lives, but unbeknownst to each other, are both missing and searching for the same man. So who we first meet is Zara. And Zara is a new mom. She's living in a remote, um, part of Tasmania, and she's realizing that. Even though she's grown up in Tasmania with her white mom, she's realizing that she's actually wanting now to learn a bit more about the culture of her father and who her father was who, because he's from Morocco and she's never met him. So having this baby is kind of the catalyst for her to start to do that investigation into kind of where her father is and what it is like to, you know, be a Moroccan. So she heads off to Morocco and. Um, where she discovers her father's family, but discovers that her father himself hasn't been seen, um, for over 25 years. So he's a missing person there. And at the same time as we meet Zara, we meet Hadija who is, um, Zara's grandmother, and Hadija is an elderly Moroccan woman who. Is looking back over her life and wondering if she will see her firstborn son again before she passes away. So the journey is kind of the, the story is the journey of them both trying to work out what, what happened to this man.
Natasha Rai:Thank you. That was a great pitch, by the way.
Nadia Mahjouri:I don't know, it's, I'm still making it up as I go. I should have a, I should have it just, you know.
Natasha Rai:No, was I, I mean, I've read the book and I love, I love it and I think it's so beautiful. Oh, thank you. I could really feel myself getting quite emotional when you are talking, especially about, you know, will she ever see her firstborn son? I was like, oh gosh. Yeah. It really, yeah. Tugs on. On that, but I'm so curious to ask you, because I know that part of it is based on your personal experience. Mm-hmm. Um, how did you make the choice to explore it through fiction as opposed to say memoir? Uh, that is a really good question
Nadia Mahjouri:because I didn't, um, I didn't make that choice, um, until really quiet. Far down the down the track. I originally started writing this novel as half memoir, half fiction, and it could never be a complete memoir because I was really interested to know my grandmother's story. And my grandmother is, is, you know, the character Haddi is based on my grandmother's story. I knew a few kind of big. Um, you know, I knew that she, I knew the village she grew up in outside of Marrakesh. I'd been there. I knew the, um, that she had been married 11, and I knew that she'd had my father at 13. But besides that, and I knew she'd had had a traditional facial tattoo. Yeah. And so I knew a little bits about her life, but I was fascinated to get to know her. But she'd actually passed away before. I first went to Morocco, so it was always gonna be, it couldn't be a whole memoir'cause I was, that was actually the catalyst for me. I wanted to kind of investigate what would life have been like for her? What would her, um, you know, what would her kind of daily life have been like in the village? What would her beliefs have been? What kind of spiritual, you know, ideas were happening for her. Um. And also I was told by my family, Morocco, when I did get there, that she'd died of a broken heart because her first born son never came back. So, you know, I just like, I just desperately wanted to kind of engage with her. But at the same time, I had this feeling that my story of going to find my family Morocco was something that I wanted my kids to have. So I actually just started writing it as a really personal kind of family project. I just have this kind of record to give to my kids, you know, one day if they were to kind of go, hang on, how does this work that we live here and yet we've got this family in Morocco? Like, what, how did that all, you know, how did that all come to be? So, um, so yeah, I started writing it as a, as half memoir and then fictionalizing the bits I didn't know, um, as it started to kind of get a bit of. You know, positive feedback that maybe there was something publishable as you know, in it. Um, I started submitting it and I really wasn't sure at that point whether it there was more value in it being a true story and it being memoir. Do you know what I mean? I just didn't know. I couldn't tell whether it was better for me to, in terms of getting it published to write it as fiction, um, as completely fiction or not. Um, and it wasn't until I, so I got the book deal in the end with. Half memoir, half fiction. But it was clear from the beginning that, um, she wanted me, that my publisher wanted me to rewrite the, the memoir as fiction. And it was the fictional, the fictionalization was really about simplifying the narrative to make it a little bit easier to understand for the readers. So things, you know, in real life, things happened over seven years. The events play out over seven years, um, in the novel. They play out over one year. You know, in reality, the events, you know, my grandmother, for example, she had eight children, so I had eight, you know, aunts and uncles who all gave me little bits of information, you know? Um. In the novel, she only has three because it was just literally a matter of kind of, um, because it was already dual point of view, you know, dual timelines, it was already quite a complicated structure. So it was just a matter of simplifying the narrative that to make it easier to follow. So I think the word she said to me, my publisher, which I loved and really kind of took to heart, were, um, keep the emotional truth, but we don't need to be so attached to the facts. Oh, you know, like it was something like, we don't need the, we don't need the factual truth, but, you know, the emotional truth is what's important. And that's definitely, you know, it is, it is emotionally true to my journey also. It's, you know, actually literally quite true to my journey. It's just things are rearranged a little bit and, you know, they're kind of, um, connectors that are, people are given multiple, you know, multiple roles where they, in reality, they didn't have, they were, they were a conglomeration of people.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. Yeah, so, so making that change, um, were there aspects that you felt you lost and were there aspects that you felt you gained?
Nadia Mahjouri:Oh, such a good question. Um, and no one's asked me that before. Um, I love that, um, because there were things I lost and I felt a bit sad about some of those things, actually. Um, because not only was it over seven years, the, the events of the story play out. So I first went to Morocco. And I discovered I, you know, after quite some, you know, work to find my family, when I did finally found find them, um, I spent about six weeks there, um, with aunts and uncles and so on, but I didn't really have any language skills. And so I came home, went off to uni, learned to speak French, and then went back for six months. So, you know, the next six months journey was quite, um, uh, epic. And in the middle there I had separated from my. Son's father. So I went back as a single woman and actually had this beautiful relationship with a Moroccan man who taught me a lot about, um, and that was all in the memoir, this kind of romance element. Mm. And I just felt so sad to get rid of this character, the, the character man, because he had been, he himself was a, was an amazi or, or burber. Um. Uh, activist, he was fighting very hard for the rights of the indigenous people in Morocco, the, the, um, to keep the language alive for the rights of indigenous, um, Moroccan Amazi people to speak their language and to have it recognized and taught in schools and so on. So he was quite passionate about that and I learned a lot from him and. Yeah. And then in the story, I needed his character because he actually teaches Zara to, you know, a lot about her culture and about this part of her culture. Everyone else seems quite afraid to speak about politics, and that's for a very good reason because, you know, they have, they have lived for many years under a kind of authoritarian or, you know, quite, um, uh, what's the word? Um. But you know, it, it, it's been, it's a monarchy, but it's, it's quite a cruel regime. So they're, they're very, and they're, there are strong, um, responses to dissidents, you know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So people are very afraid. Were at that point, not so much now, but were at that point very, which was the late nineties, so it's said in the late nineties for anyone that hasn't read it. Um, so he was a really important character, but also. You know, there was this glorious kind of park back to my mother, which who had gone to Morocco, was a white woman and an Australian woman, and fallen in love with a Moroccan man. And he was me, you know, 25 years later going back to Morocco as a single mom and falling in love with a Moroccan man. And I just kind of really loved that echo, you know? Yeah. But obviously when you, when you bring this seven years down to one year, you know, and down, you know, two long or three long trips to Morocco, down to one trip to Morocco, I would ha ha, she would've had to have been. You know, having a cheating on her partner. Yeah. Had the baby without the partner and like, it just story was, I, I, I didn't wanna kind of. I didn't wanna make it that complicated. So the whole, so the character's still there, but he loses the kind of, you know, there's one little kiss, you know, and it's funny to me because the friends, my friends are like, but that guy that, you know, that g that guy, he's made up, isn't he? You know? And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. That guy is so real. In fact, he is way more than the little kiss that they had by the beach
Natasha Rai:or by the river. But I suppose as well, Nadia, the way you've just described that, if you ha, if you tried to cram that in, you'd be losing that beautiful emotional truth that you were. Looking for. Right, right. Because it Yeah, that's right. It goes down to something that's, doesn't even have half the depth of what you would've experienced.
Nadia Mahjouri:Exactly. And the emotion, the, I would've lost the emotional truth of what actually happened, but also I would've shifted it into a different emotional territory that it wasn't there. It would've become like a, you know, a kind of cheating storyline or a, you know, like some other, some other storyline. Yeah. So, so it definitely, um. Yeah, it, it, it lost some things, but it, you know, it also, I can see the story as a, as a novel is much stronger. You know, I can, I can see that, and I could see immediately the, the, the wisdom in what, you know, my publisher was suggesting. And actually I'd hit a point where I just, when I got the, the, you know, contract for publication, I was so relieved to have access to someone else's mind. Mm. To kind of'cause, you know, to look at this project and be able to say, this is what it needs. Because I was really at a point where I didn't know how to make it better. I was like, I can sit here and work on this manuscript and I'm making it different. You know, like I wrote, it was all in first person and now it's all in third person. You know, I've made this different. Is it better? I have no idea. Do you know what I mean? Like, I just didn't know the difference between different and better. Yeah. So to have someone else come in and say, no, this needs fictionalizing. And Yes. Leave that like that and, but change this bit, you know, and they don't tell you how to change it, but they tell you, you know what, you know, this needs to become fiction or these characters need to be clearer, or, you know,
Natasha Rai:yeah. They give you that guidance. Um, and I do wanna come back to your, that was great. Yeah. And I do wanna come back to your publication journey, but if we just go back a bit. Mm-hmm. When did you start writing and when did you call yourself a writer?
Nadia Mahjouri:That is such a, yeah. Such an interesting question. And I, I do remember kind of. Making a conscious decision to claim that, um, identity, I suppose because, I mean, I was a kid that I grew up, my mother was a librarian and I'm an only child, so, you know, books were my best friends and my, you know, siblings and my pastime. I lived, you know, I was very lucky to live in a house full of books with a mother that loved children's literature, so I was so, yeah, so, so kind of reading. Primarily before writing, you know, was, was my, you know, it was a love of mine forever and just part of my life, but when it came to writing, I wrote creatively in, you know, school writing in high school. I enjoyed it, but I never really thought it was something that was a viable option for a thing to do. So I moved, you know, I, I always wrote. Essays and, you know, applications for various things with kind of glee. Like, you know, like I, I enjoyed essays instead of like, you know, so I have always, everything I've ever done and ever felt kind of, um, that I had some, you know, talent in was always writing related, but I just hadn't given myself permission to play creatively with writing and it wasn't. But I had this idea brewing about my grandmother's story for, since it happened, since I, since the late, late nineties. And I just kind of, I kept chewing it over and I knew that it was one of those things that one day. I wanna write that story. It wasn't writing in general, it was that story. You know, it was my grandmother's story. And then at the same time, people would say to me all the time, I would tell them about going to Morocco and trying to find my father and what had happened. And they would say, oh my God, that's gotta be a book. So I didn't have that much interest in writing my own story. I really wanted to write my grandmother's story, but then people would always say, oh, that you've gotta tell that story. And I was like, oh, well I really should for my kids. And then. Well, it took me probably 20 years to work out how those two things could Mm, you know, could work together. And it wasn't till I kind of realized that, of course, these two women are linked. By, you know, the absence of this man that I realized, and that wasn't till 20 20, 20 20, 20 19. It was, it wasn't 2020 hadn't started yet. So we weren't in the COVID years yet, but it was the end of 2019 and my husband and I had, um, gone away camping. And he was turning 50 and we were having that conversation. That's like, what would you, you know, what would you regret not doing? You know, if you get to the end of your life and you haven't, is there something that you would regret if you never did it, that you've done yet, that you haven't done yet? You know, and we were writing this list of like 50 things to do, you know, when you're 50, you know, like, you know Yep. That he had stupid things like him. Running a marathon, which, you know, like I, I never put running a marathon on my list. Like, I'm not stupid, but you know, like, uh, we decided, you know, I was like, I wanna see giraffes in the wild in, in Africa, you know, so we'd booked a safari for 2020'cause we were ticking things off our list, which obviously didn't happen. Still. I've never seen a giraffe in the wild. That's too long. Yeah. But one of the things on my list obviously was I will really regret not having written. This particular story, you know, I, I need to do that before I die, kind of thing. To not like end up with deathbed regrets.
Natasha Rai:So, and it's so I was just gonna say on that point, it's so interesting, isn't it? How many emerging aspiring writers, we need to have some specific thing that we do to give ourselves the permission. Like you, you had, okay, I wanna write about my grandmother, and then, oh, okay, let's make this list. Now I have permission to actually do it.
Nadia Mahjouri:Yeah. Yeah. Even more than that, like the literal permission came because my daughter was going to, I'd been home. With the kids. I, I have, we've kind of got a, a blended family and I had a young child in 99, and then I didn't have more kids until, you know, nine, you know, the 20 thirteens. And so my, my, um, youngest two kids, the youngest of those was heading off to kinder in 2020. So we'd been living without my income, you know, or without me just doing little bits and pieces of, of. Various freelance stuff here and there. So we'd been living without my income for a while and I, my daughter was only gonna be at school three days a week, and they were only gonna short school days. And so the conversation was really, how about I don't go back to work this year? How about, you know, if we can survive? How about I give myself this year to write this notebook, you know? And then, um. You know, because then I, I can kind of, you know, like, so it literally was kind of a permission giving, you know, to to myself to say, okay, this year I'm not gonna, I'm gonna have three days without kids in the house, you know? And then of course, 2020 happened, so the three days with the, with the kids, you know, outta the house just didn't happen at all. But, you know, it, it got done anyway,
Natasha Rai:so, yeah. So tell me, then you wrote, what was it, like a first draft or a draft of the whole, of, of half Truth.
Nadia Mahjouri:Uh, yeah, I did eventually, you know, obviously you've gotta, you know, I started, I got stuck at several points and had to reach out for, um, I think about 20,000 words. I was like, oh, I don't know what I'm doing, you know, and I just found someone advertising in my local area that was a writing mentor. So she kind of, and she didn't do much except kind of say. It wasn't like we had an ongoing relationship or anything, but she just said, no, there's something here. And I think that you can do it. Like, you know, I don't know, the dual point of views are working or something like that. Yeah. I just needed like, you know, someone else just say that
Natasha Rai:you are okay and this is gonna work. Yeah, yeah. And
Nadia Mahjouri:that you, you know, it's, yeah. And you know, remember her, her exact words were, you know, she said, and if this gets published. No, when this gets published. And I just remember, like, I love that that's the first time anyone had ever said, when this get published, you know? And I was like, oh, I wasn't even thinking about publication, but she was the first person to kind of use that phrase with me. And I just like, yeah, like I said, it stuck in my mind, you know, she, if no, when, when, um, and so then I started just en entering little bits and pieces into. You know, I into little competitions, and so all of those were little kind of, you know. Mm-hmm. So
Natasha Rai:competitions where you didn't need a full manuscript.
Nadia Mahjouri:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like little chapters as stories, I suppose, or, you know, um, yeah, nothing, nothing. I, I, you know, nothing that had a kind of, um, what do you call it? Like a. A, a requirement or an expectation that we would have the whole, you know, that was even more, you know, just like, maybe this is, you know, I, I put a piece into the SBS emerging writers. Um, they had a competition. I remember that. Yes. Yeah. There, there was another thing that's also gone now called the, um, Deborah Cas. Oh, that's right. And I was short
Natasha Rai:that that finished. Yeah.
Nadia Mahjouri:Yeah. And that was for kind of diverse writers. And so that was great too, you know, just to be shortlisted or long listed, whatever I was, you know, it just felt like a kind of, it's a real boost. It. Um, yeah. And it was a validation of the project, you know, it was a validation of my capacity to even. Salude myself into thinking I could do this. You know, because I hadn't kind of come from, I, I hadn't written 20 novels before. Do you know what I mean? Like, I wasn't, I wasn't one of those people that had like 20 in the, in the bottom drawer. Yeah, exactly. You know, I, I don't have any in the bottom drawer. There's nothing in my bottom drawer. Like, well, there is probably like a whole lot of rubbish in my bottom drawer, but it's not like, it's not, it's not, not as, um, functional as a novel. So, yeah, I, um, and then I had applied to do a. Uh, what do you call? And I just did little courses and stuff, but I applied to do a mentorship, you know, with Kill Your Darlings. You know how they have that? Ah, yes, yes I do. And they, I must have had about 60,000 words at that point or something like that, and she came back to me and they said, look, we think you're too far into your project for, you know, for what we are aiming this project to be. Mm-hmm. Why don't you book in a manuscript assessment? She was like, but I'm not busy. I'm busy until like, I think at this point it was like November or maybe, I don't know, in, in 2020. And she said, why don't you book it in for April next year? So then I had a deadline. So I booked in for a manuscript assessment of the entire manuscript in April, and I booked it in six months in advance. And I was like, okay, well this is your deadline now. You know, you've gotta
Natasha Rai:get to, yeah. And, and with the assessor, did you that to choose or did they assign somebody to you?
Nadia Mahjouri:Oh, that's a really good, I don't remember. I've got, you don't remember? Okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I have no idea. But it was Rebecca Stafford who did that. Yeah. So I don't actually remember whether, how that ended up being her. Mm. Um, but, but yeah, that also just worked for me to have a deadline to get up an entire manuscript. You know,
Natasha Rai:ready? Yes.
Nadia Mahjouri:Yeah. Ready. And in a way that I thought was at least readable and
Natasha Rai:presentable to, to someone. Yeah. And considering you had 60,000 words, six months feels like a good enough time to Yeah. Get. A bit more done and finish it to a standard that you're comfortable with.
Nadia Mahjouri:Yeah, totally. Yeah, totally. Totally. And I, I knew by, at that stage, I knew where I was heading. Although of course, it, you know, it got, it, it changed many times after there, but I knew where I was heading for the end of the first draft at least, you know? Yeah. So, so what came out of that assessment? Also the word publishable, which, you know, was in that assessment. You know, there was a whole lot of fantastic kind of advice about character and structure and, you know, the kind of how to, how to strengthen the manuscript, you know, pages and pages of, of, um, feedback that all of which was really, really useful. But by far it was the, it was the sense that she said it was strong and that it had legs. You know, that was, that was really the thing. That has stayed in my, you know, because at that point you just don't know. Mm-hmm. You know, I hadn't been in this world ever before. I felt like I was, and it was only then I started to say, writer. You asked me really a long time ago, when did you start to use the word writer? But it was only after that point. But I was like, oh. Maybe I'm a writer, do you know what I mean? Like, maybe that's a thing I can say, because I feel I've got a whole novel sitting here now. Like that means I'm an actual writer. You know, I'm not an author, but I'm a writer because look at what I wrote. And, you know, so yeah, I think that was about the point where my, I kind of, my confidence, um, in my capacity to write and in the fact that I was writing, you know, some little things got published and so on. No, no, actually that's not even true. But the, um. The SBS emerging writers turned into a, into a anthology, you know, so there were just little things that felt like, yeah,
Natasha Rai:yeah. You know, felt like. Okay. And at, at this point, Nadia, had you met any other writers? Did you know the writers did, did you have community? Um,
Nadia Mahjouri:not in the way I do now. You know, not, not like, um, since publication and just, you know, once I had the book deal, then I felt like a whole kind of beautiful community opened up to me. But I had a couple of friends that had one friend who had published, um, a couple of children's books, um, or, you know, not picture books, but children Children's, what do you call? Middle grade fiction. Um. She'd published a series, so that was good. She could kind of, you know, tell me not to panic or that things would be okay. She read a couple, she read the first 20,000 words, you know, I'd kind of started handing it out to various people. I had another friend who is doing, she's now doing a PhD in creative writing. She's a beautiful writer. And you know, I felt a little bit like, um. She, we in our friendship group, she was already the writer, like writer was kind of, you know, the, the job, the job of writer was, was taken, was her. Yeah. There was no, yeah. So who is this like, upstart thinking? She can just start to write, you know, like, you know, and, and also does it I have not helped, but I mean, she is a very, very talented, very, very beautiful writer. So, you know, I was like, oh, well, you know, she's clearly got writer covered, but, you know, so, so I knew people that were writing. Um, but no, not nothing like, oh, and I did a course, actually, that's what I did. That was my first little writers group. I did a course with Heather Rose during COVID, and it was an online course and it was in the early days of COVID. And everyone was in that magical little bubble where, I don't know, the whole world seemed to kind of, we, we'd all stepped into an alternate universe and everything was kind of magical and weird. Um. And she had this beautiful kind of spiritual approach. We almost, we did the artist's way kind of, you know, as a, as a kind of group every day for, for a couple of weeks at lunchtime, a couple of hours in the middle of the day. And it was just this beautiful thing. And so that group became, you know, became a writer. Yeah. Kind of online writing community. Um, and we are still, you know, in touch that, that group now. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, and then, so yeah, so as I started to do more writing, um. Courses and activities, most of those would turn into writing friends, you know? Yeah. Connections. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. But it, it was a, when I started it, not really, like, there were, like I said, a couple of other people that I knew tangentially, you know, had, had written, but we weren't, our friendship
Natasha Rai:wasn't based on that. But, so then coming back to after you had your assessment with Rebecca Stafford, what did you do then after that with your manuscript? What happened next? Excellent question.
Nadia Mahjouri:I, I, I, you know, I spent some time taking on board that feedback that was, there was quite a bit of feedback, so I, I needed to do quite a lot of editing. So, I mean, by that stage it was kind of, once I'd done what I might have called, like a second draft or, you know what I mean, like, I, I, yeah. Structured it all or whatever. I, I might have called it at that point. So I took on her feedback and. I actually did another course. Yeah. That was the second course that I did was with, with was with Fiona Macintosh, her, and at this point I was just kind of scatter, gunning, applying for everything I could see. So I did a Fiona Macintosh course, I applied for publishable, um, at Queensland Writer Center that year. They, I didn't, I wasn't long listed or shortlisted for, um. For publishable that year, but they gave you feedback, you could pay$50 and get feedback. Oh, amazing. Yeah, yeah. You know, on the, I think you sent in 10,000 words or something like that. Yeah. So I paid for that feedback and I had this great feedback session with him. Um, and then I did this, um, Fiona Macintosh course, and she also gave feedback. And this was all kind of on the first few chapters. Like they were giving feedback on the first 10,000 words, first three chapters, that kind of thing. And I remember having like. Night and day. You know, they were like, they were like, one was, I really like the older woman, but not the younger woman. And the other one was, I really like the young woman and not the old woman. And I was like, oh. I realized at that point like, you've, I'm gonna have to, um, make some calls here. You know? Yeah. Like your
Natasha Rai:own, what feels right for you and your work like this. Yeah.
Nadia Mahjouri:Yeah. Because I was starting to kind of just, I'm a real people pleaser. In a lot of ways. And I just wanted to, it was like they were my teachers and I wanted to like exactly. And make them happy and get like the nice mark. And I was like, exactly the be be the good student. Yes. Yeah. But I couldn't do both. Like, I couldn't make them both happy'cause they wanted different, like they wanted opposite things from me. So it was quite a, I mean, it was actually quite good that it was so stark.'cause I did have to recognize that it was impossible. Like I couldn't actually, and that I would have to chart my own course through this and that at some point, you know, this is my story and I have to be happy with it. So that was really good. Um, at the same time, Fiona was really wonderful and she really liked what I'd sent. Um, and she sent it off to, to Penguin, to her publisher who, um, passed it on to one of her colleagues. Um, I heard back from that colleague eventually, and she was interested. Wow, what a moment. It was such a moment. I remember we were on a four month road trip at that point through, it was 2021, and we'd given up on the, um. Drafts and just, and decided that, um, we needed a holiday and it was gonna have to be an Australian holiday, and that we needed to tick something off our, always wanted to do list, but it had to be something in Australia. And so the, the, the thing for me that I'd always wanted you in Australia was see the Kimberley. Ah, oh God. And so, yeah, I was like, I've never been to the Kimberleys. I really wanna see that part of, and the western Australian loo coast, I was like, this is my, these are my bucket list items for Australia. So we took four months and we flew to Darwin and bought a carvan and a camper van, and we went. Caravan in a car. And then we did a four month trip to Perth and we sold everything in Perth. We bought it all in Darwin, sold it again four months later in Perth for the same money.'cause it was at the time when caravans were kind of selling like, you know, oh yeah. A caravan. Like you couldn't leave Australia. So yeah, we bought a brand new caravan and sold it four months later, still as a brand new caravan, which was weird. Like amazing. Yeah. Anyway, the point being that I was on a road trip, so I do remember that. I remember the moment very much. But of course. Life isn't as simple as that. So I never heard back from her. I, I heard back from her saying, I really like it. Um, I'm going to, I'll, I'll get back in touch with you. I think it was like a, you know, anyway, I didn't hear anything for months. I was like, okay, okay, okay. Eventually I messaged, I emailed. Fiona.'cause it had been a really long time, maybe six months then, and I emailed Fiona back and just said, look, I don't know what to do. I haven't heard back. You know? She said, oh, okay. Yeah, she probably should have got back to you because she said like, you know, it had been like, I'll get back to you in a couple of weeks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it wasn't like a, it wasn't like a, you know, a submission thing. Like she, anyway, I, I find, so Fiona followed up for me, which was lovely. And what I heard back was. I am so sorry, but I've left. I'm leaving my job next week. I should, I should have got back to you, but I'm not allowed to take anything on because I'm leaving, you know? And so that was that. So then I was back in the trenches, you know? Um. You know, which was fine. Like, you know, that that it, that was my first approach to publishers. If it, you know, it would've been too good to be true for it to just kind of magically happen. But there was validation then, you know. Exactly, yes. Yeah. A publisher's seen it now and a publisher thought it was okay. So I just started kind of taking every opportunity I could see, and I, you know, when they, the Emerging Writers Festival happened that you could do a practice pitch? Um, I did the practice pitch and to hase, they requested a Manus, the manuscript. I did a pitch to, oh no, I did a favor course about just a short course about how to work with a publisher or an editor. Um, and there was a publisher there from Alan and Aman that was running that course. She heard, you know, about my work or, you know, looked, read the first chapter and one of the rest she requested it. So people, I just started putting my mm, bring it up there. Hat, hat in every ring I could find. Basically I reapplied for the next year's publishable. I, you know, if I could, there was a little festival, writer's festival out at Tasmanian, like, you know. I would go along and try and find the publisher and try and like, do you know what I mean? Like I just would take every opportunity that, you know, came around and, um, and it, and, and then someone had told me about literary speed dating. So I did speed dating. Um, I was trying agents at that point. That's the other thing I'd been doing at that point, trying agents and not really getting anywhere with agents. Like I had had quite a few kind of rejections from agents after. Mm-hmm. Usually after a request, but more likely it was a ghosting. I didn't, I, I had more ghosting than I had rejections. Lots of ghosting, like all of those people that I said. Had requested it, like the Faber person that requested it, the, oh, Alan and Aman, the ette publisher that requested it. And they had requested it from face-to-face conversations. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I didn't hear back from any of those like, yeah, it was so interesting. And I think what happens, someone said to me, nos are easy. Like hell, yeses are easy, but there's a whole lot in the middle where you are not quite sure. And I think the reality is now I realize I wasn't ready. To be putting it out there. I was putting it out there too early. It wasn't yet. Okay. Um, you know, like it wasn't yet shiny enough, you know, or, you know, there was still more work to be done on it. Mm. And I think that, yeah, I think that that's probably what was happening. They could see the potential in it, which is why it wasn't an absolute no, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but. It wasn't quite there yet, and they had to think quite a lot about how to make it there, you know, and they, you know, just weren't invested enough to kind of do that thinking work. Um, so, so I think that's what was going on there. So I didn't, so yeah, in the end, I, uh, I, so I did literary speed dating and I pitched to text and I pitched to Ultimo, and they both requested. Um, one text came back very, very quickly saying, um, I don't think I'm the right person for this. He's like, you know, and I completely understood that. Mm-hmm. Like, um, he, yeah, it just was, it wouldn't have been a good fit, I don't think, um, for the book, but just for the individual. Um, Ultimo said, didn't say anything for ages, and then when I kind of checked back in, said that. That wasn't, I'm not the right person, but it's, but there's someone else at my team that I've passed it on to at Ultimo anyway, didn't hear anything back in the same time I was shortlist long-listed and shortlisted for publishable the second year. Kind of unapplied for it. Yeah. Yeah. So that was great. I was set up with a, a mentor, um, Michael Ahmed through publishable, which was great because I hadn't really had anything to do with the Western Sydney. I, you know, I'd read his work. I loved his work, but I, I hadn't, um. My, you know, my work set in the Arab world, you know, like it's about being kind of, you know, north African, um, Australian Rock and Australian. And so there are a lot of crossovers between the work that a lot of people are doing. You know, he Lebanese Australian kind of work. But, um, so it was really, it was great to be able to connect in with those guys.'cause I just think what they do is amazing. Um. And then I was shortlisted for publishable. And then they said to me, okay, we are gonna arrange a pitch, um, to, do you want a pitch to an agent or to a publisher? And I, I looked at the agents on the list and the agents on the list. One of them was Gabby Nayer, and Gabby was. Heather Rose, who I'd done a course with, who also happens to be my cousin, because it's Tasmania second cousin. Mm-hmm. Um, she, her, that was her agent. And so I thought, I'm gonna contact Heather and just see if she thinks it's worth me pitching to Gabby, because I was like, I'll see if she, you know, um. If she's taking on new people. Yeah. If there's, you know, like if it's, even, like, if she's not even interested in the kind of stuff I do, I won't even bother to, you know, I won't say I wanna pitch to her, you know? So, so I said, oh, Heather, can we have a coffee? Heather was in the middle of promoting her memoir, and she, she's like, oh, yes, but not yet. Blah, blah, blah. Anyway, so I didn't hear back from Heather Publishable, Queensland Writer Center. Went ahead and booked a pitch anyway with Penguin. I was like, okay, look, that's done. You know, that's done. I'll pitch to Penguin. You know, anyway, so I pitched to Penguin, to Meredith Kerno. Um, it, it must have been like November, December. Uh, and I, and then I fi then I heard back from Heather saying, I'm so sorry. I'm done now. Can we have a coffee? And I was like. Oh, you know, I just wanted to know, blah, blah, blah. Just explained what the situation was and she's like, oh, I'll just put you in touch with Gabby. You know, like, so, so that was, so that way I kind of, you know, anyway, so I sent myself off to Gabby. That was great. So, you know, now Penguin was considering it and Gabby now was considering it, and I still hadn't heard back from Ultimo. Oh, yes. Okay. Yeah, so, so the, these balls are all in the air at once and it's kind of Christmas time, you know, and I got a call back from, from Meredith Kerno at Penguin, and she was like, look, you know, there are, you know, I really like it. I really like, you know, but there's, there are these things that need to be worked on, blah, blah, blah. Um, why don't you go away and do some work on it? Um. And then bring it back to me. I was like, okay, I'll go away and I'll do, I'll do those things, um, and I'll bring it back to you by this stage. So kind of January went by, it must have been February. I still hadn't heard back from Ultimo, so I sent that email to Ultimo going, you know, what's going on? She said, oh, you know, that was when she told me, I'm sorry, I've sent it to someone else. You know? Yeah. Check up with her. Anyway, I checked up with her, sent her an email. She sends me back an email pretty much immediately saying. Oh yes. Can you, can we have a Zoom? And I was like, yeah, sure. Wow. So I had a Zoom call with her and she's like, I wanna take it to acquisitions. My little brain explodes because I'm chasing up a ghosting, like, you know, so I'm really not expecting a Yeah, exactly. Yes. I'm like, what? Like, you know, because I was just waiting for the, it was more for me just to check it off my list because a SA, when you do literary speed daddy and they actually have a three month, um, rule that you have to, you can't. Take longer than three months to get back to someone, which is brilliant because it often does take, you know. Yeah. But a SA kind of promises that, that if you do literary speed dating, you get a request. The publisher has agreed that to, they'll give you to you Yeah. Give a response within three months. So, you know, so it had been well over three months, so I was, you know, so I felt, I felt,'cause often it's hard to know if you should follow up in those situations. Sometimes you just let it go. But I thought I was a little bit emboldened by knowing that rule. You know? Exactly that, that as SA said, if you, if they don't get back to you, you know, and you chase it up, you know, then we'll follow it up for you. Do you know what I mean? Like, because that's the kind of arrangement that they make and the publishers commit to that when they come into the program. Mm-hmm. So I, um. Yeah. So anyway, turns out, yes, she wanted to take it to acquisitions. I knew that Penguin hadn't said no, they hadn't said yess, right? But they hadn't said no. They were like, you know, fix this up and come back. So I rang Gabby, who was still considering my thing, who I also hadn't heard back from. But I sent her a message saying, look. You know, ultimately wanna take it to acquisitions. I haven't had no from Penguin yet. You know, what shall I do? What shall I do? Um, and she went, leave it. You know, like, yes, all right, I'll take you on. She's like, read your thing, I like it, you know, I'll take you on. Um, and kind of leave it to me. And I was like, I've got an offer from a publisher. Just let me sign the damn deal. Like, just lemme sign it. Like I was just, it was torture, not being able to sign the first deal that came across my desk. You know? She's like, so, so Ultimo did make an offer. They did make an offer, yeah. They did make an offer? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So yes, she made an offer. Um. And I was just, you know, ready. Uh, she was lovely. You know, Meredith was lovely. Like they'd all been lovely. Like, you know, I, I, and they both actually had similar visions. They were like, you know, they both kind of knew, you know, it was obvious to them what needed to be done. It wasn't obvious to me, obvious to the professionals. Turns out I had no idea. But, um. Anyway, so, no, actually, and then, you know, penguin came back with an offer too, and then there was negotiations, which just, you know, kind of blew my, blew my mind and obviously ended up with Penguin and have been very, very happy. Although, I'm sure I would've also been happy, you know, with automotive. Yeah. You know, it wasn't, it wasn't, again, you know, I just, I, I would've been happy with because they were both lovely, lovely editors and both great companies. So, but yeah, turned out. So at this point, Nadia, we, we, you are into 2023, right? Yes. At this point I'm into 2023. Yes. Yeah. So that, so I, in terms of the publishable, I didn't, it was 2021. I didn't make it through to the, that's final. Yeah. And then 2022, I did get to the, to the short list. And then the, that pitch happened at the end of 2022. So it was middle of 20, well, not middle, like March. Yeah, 20 April, 2023. Yeah. What all happened and then the book didn't come out till 2025. Yes. So I mean this, the speed is just
Natasha Rai:mind blowing. Listen, I know. And I think, like, I always think it's valuable to really, um. Pay a lot of attention to that because yes, of course there are writers who are like, oh yeah, I was picked up and I signed this deal and it's coming out, you know, next year. But I don't know. I think your experience, my experience, a lot of the debut crew from this year's experience is that like it takes time and you have to persevere. Absolutely.
Nadia Mahjouri:If that's what
Natasha Rai:you want, right? Mm.
Nadia Mahjouri:Yeah. And I needed all of that time. Mm. We were still making edits right up until kind of, I mean, it came out in February. I was still making edits in November. Like at the proof stage.
Natasha Rai:Yeah. Yeah. It, yeah. You gotta, yeah. It takes the time. It takes, right? Yeah. Yeah. And it's hard to say it'll be this or this or this. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And maybe other people write Nita a work What a, what a journey. And I'm so, yeah. I'm so happy that. It has been published'cause it's a gorgeous book. It's an gorgeous Oh, thank you. Yeah. And I really, it was even, you know, even earlier when you said emotional truth, that's really landed for me because it definitely has that so much emotional truth. So amazing. Um, so before we wrap up Nadia, are there any tips that you would give an emerging or aspiring writer?
Nadia Mahjouri:Yeah, I. My, my advice really is put yourself out there. You know, I think that's what I learned from my, you know, throw your hat into every ring. Keep an eye open for opportunities and, you know, what's the worst that can happen? You know, like you don't hear back. Exactly. You know, there's, yeah. So I would really, you know, I just think if you've got something that you think is. You know, got some legs then, then put it out there, you know, and also you have to be willing to, you know, to take the feedback that you get, you know, because if I had of kept trying to shop around the first draft that I'd put out there, well that wouldn't have gone anywhere. Do you know what I mean? But every time, if you're taking on the advice, then you are, you know, you're moving closer and closer to having a product that people are gonna wanna, or, you know, a, a publishable. Um, manuscript. So yeah, take on the advice. Be, um, but be brave, you know?
Natasha Rai:Yeah. And also your experience with the publishable program shows that you don't just have one shot you can resubmit and look what happened. You were shortlisted. Yeah.
Nadia Mahjouri:Yeah. That's absolutely right. Yeah, that's right. And I mean. I'm so grateful that I took that 50 like that, you know, the$50$49 or something for feedback. You know, whenever they're offering feedback, take it, you know? Yeah. Another way too. It's just so useful. Yeah. So useful if people are, even if you don't take it on board, and like I said, I had kind of differing feedback. It was really interesting in itself, just to know that it's hitting different people differently, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Natasha Rai:And yeah. Yeah. Oh, well thank you so much for, uh, coming on the podcast and sharing your journey with me. It's been amazing to hear because I didn't actually know all of that. I know we've talked to loads about lead up to publication, but I actually didn't know there was, there was so much and, and it's such a typical journey as in the highs and lows, like when you think you've got somewhere and then bam, it's not Oh, yeah. And it can
Nadia Mahjouri:be, I mean, that's probably the other thing I'd say is. You know, you do have to look after your emotional kind of mental health because it is a rollercoaster and you know, you, there are moments where you can feel quite disheartened by the whole thing. And there are moments when you know, you're very hopeful and then that doesn't turn into something. So I guess keeping some perspective around it is, you know, is really important. Um, you know. One No is not, no forever. You know, like it's not exactly, you know, there, there are, there are always more opportunities and there's, you know, there's always next year's competition for me right now. I'm like, well there's always, you know, I'm gonna write another book and another book and another book, and I hope that every book that I write is, you know, gonna be. Kind of better than the last. I don't know, my current second novel draft is looking pretty ugly, so like, it doesn't feel like that at the moment, but I'm like, I'll
Natasha Rai:get there. Exactly. And you, and you know you, you can do it because you've done it already. So definitely. Yes, that's the plan. Well, thank you so much and for listeners that their half truth is out and makes a great Christmas present. Oh, thank you. Thanks, bye. Take care. Bye-bye. Having reflected on my conversation with Nadia, the intention that I'm setting for the next few weeks is about permission, and I really like the word Nadia used around being emboldened, so I'm thinking about giving myself permission to write. Or not to write, to call myself various things like a writer, a counselor, maybe a podcaster, a teacher, things that I haven't, especially around teaching and podcasting, things that I haven't really given myself full permission to call myself or to attach that title to myself. Thinking about what you give yourself permission to do. And if you write, and we've said this before many, many times, and it's worth repeating if you write your rev writer. So just check for yourself what gets in the way of giving yourself permission to name that or even to create time. What a carve out time to write for yourself, whether you want to pursue publication or whether it's something that you are doing for yourself. And lastly, the intention around getting or being emboldened. So I really liked what Nadia said was to chase every opportunity, put your hat in the ring for everything. And I actually had this conversation with Madeline, my co-host, just last night around writers writing. Yes. But also the skillset of making connections of putting yourself out there because it is scary, because it's not so simple as. I'll just have a go and see what happens because you're putting something very personal on the line, which I totally understand. And as Nadia said in the episode, the worst that's going to happen is somebody says no, or they ghost you. And after a while. I dunno, it doesn't hurt or sting as much. Maybe the first few times it might. So see if you can, even with that fear or sting, keep going. Keep putting your hat in the ring, especially if you are pursuing a publication deal or if you want feedback. I think the feedback component is so important and as Nadia said. Every time she got feedback and she incorporated it into her manuscript, it made it better and shinier. So that's my intention for the next few weeks, giving yourself permission and being emboldened enough to try something, putting yourself out there. Good luck.
Tina Strachan:Thank you for listening to the book Deal podcast. We're able to bring you these weekly writerly chats because of our amazing patrons. Join the TBD family by becoming a member of our Patreon community at patreon com, the book Deal podcast. And if you love the pod, please give us a rating or review. And don't forget to follow us on Instagram and Facebook.