The Book Deal
Motivation and inspiration for emerging writers, helping them pave their own pathway to publishing success.
The Book Deal
Believing in yourself and the benefits of constant learning with Valerie Khoo, CEO of the Australian Writers Centre
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Tina Strachan:Welcome to the Book Deal podcast. I'm Tina Strachan, and in this week's Ep I'm interviewing Valerie Khoo, CEO of the Australian Writer Center, host of the So You Want to Be a writer, podcast author, artist, and absolute champion for aspiring authors. When you listen to the interview with Valerie, it's very easy to see. She's passionate about lifting up authors and celebrating their successes. And this passion is what drove her to create the incredible hub that is the Australian Writers Center. With everything that it has to offer from courses to workshops, to the podcast and the community groups, it really is a trusted source of information and inspiration for all authors. So after so many years of interviewing authors and shared knowledge through the Writer's Center, Valerie is a wealth of positivity and advice to help you on your publishing journey. I hope you enjoy. Welcome Valerie Khoo to the Book Deal podcast. I'm very excited to be here. Tina, it's truly an honor to have you here today. You're such a familiar face and name in the writing and publishing industry and I feel like pretty much all Australian authors and international know who you are. Um, and you're an absolute wealth of, uh, knowledge and information, especially when it comes to motivating and aspiring rider. And that's exactly our MO here on the pod. So we are very excited to have you on.
Valerie Khoo:Well, I love the world of writing and I love writers and authors, so anything I can do to help or, or, or share any information, I'm more than happy to.
Tina Strachan:Yeah, absolutely. Well, so I know Valerie, uh, through your own publishing journey, um, and from the 20 plus years as the CEO of the Australian Writer Center. Um, and you're also the host of the, so You Wanna Be a Writer podcast and you've done hundreds of interviews. There's over 600 episodes on the, on the podcast now. Um, you've probably seen and heard it all when it comes to publication journeys. And so I really wanna delve deep into your advice and tips for our listeners. Um, but first I wanted to quote something that I found on your own website. Um, okay. I just thought as a way of an introduction, it, I just think it really sums you up really well. It says. I've mentored thousands of writers and creatives built programs that turn ideas into published books and helped people reshape their lives through the power of storytelling. I just think that's really beautiful and I just think that's you in a nutshell.
Valerie Khoo:Oh, thank you. I'm really passionate about helping people realize, um, that what they want to happen in their lives can happen, whether that's in the world of writing or not, but obviously that's my area of technical expertise. So I love it when people's. Think of something that they think is impossible, but then eventually they realize that it is possible and then it becomes reality. So that's what motivates me.
Tina Strachan:Yeah, I love that sort of, um, we, we do talk a lot about manifesting, uh, what you like, what you want, uh, in life. And that sounds a lot, uh, very similar to what you're saying there. So. So, yeah, I mean, 20 years as the CEO of the Australian Writer Center, I'm sure it's changed a lot in that time, or at least it has grown immensely anyway. Um, now offers, you know, over 80 courses, uh, it's supported over a hundred thousand students, which is, yeah, we're up to
Valerie Khoo:120,000. Oh my gosh. Yes. That is an
Tina Strachan:incredible stat. I'm one of them. I've, I, I, I'm a grad of the A WC. Uh, lots of authors are, um. Can you tell me how it all started with you at the Writer's center? Did you know what you're getting yourself into? What was your plan, your goals at the time, and how does that align with now and what you intended?
Valerie Khoo:My goal at the time was kind of what I just said. I'm really, really motivated by helping people achieve their dreams and helping people. Learn and helping people change their lives. It just so happened that my technical skill was writing because I can't coach someone to Olympic glory because I'm not very athletic. I can't necessarily, you know, teach someone statistics or econometrics or whatever, but I can help people in the world of publishing and writing and creativity and, and that sort of space. So it started with just two courses. And there were six students in the first class I remember. And I just loved seeing that light bulb moment. And I loved then seeing their name in print, you know, um, some, they would come back to me and tell me that they got an article published or they got a book deal, or, or at least they got a, a, a publisher interested in their, in their manuscript. And that's what's really exciting for me. And over time, obviously. It grew because I knew that there was deeper knowledge that was required in specific areas, and I made sure that we provided courses in that space. And the other thing was that I did not start off as a writer. I started off as an accountant many, many years ago, like a lifetime ago. And when I wanted to move into the world of writing. I found it very difficult to get information that I could trust from one place. I got lots of information from a billion different places, some of which was good, and some of which was not as good. And I wanted to create that hub, that one stop place where people could trust the quality to know that, um, the, the, the teaching was consistent throughout because I had been to so many places where there'd be one fantastic course, and the next course was really not at all. I wanted to maintain a level of consistency and, and quality. Um, and I think that also came because I came from a, the world of the corporate world and I wanted to, I wanted to apply some of those same principles of excellence that I had, um, become so used to in providing these courses. And yeah, over time, I guess word of mouth spreads and it, it just. Continued to grow and I continue to love seeing the successes of people to, to, to, I, I continue to love seeing when people, as I said, achieve what they once thought were was impossible. And, and now it's their, their world, it's their reality. And sometimes they become, you know, like. 10 books later, I still get excited at
Tina Strachan:their success. Yeah, I think that's, um, that's really interesting and I think what you were saying about trust is really important too. I, I, I very much, that's a perfect word. I think to, um, describe the Australian Writer Center. You can trust the quality of it and you can trust, um, like you were saying, you know, you don't just get. Varying levels of the courses they are, you know, that when you sign up to an a WC course, you, you, you're getting quality. I think that's really important too. Um, and like you're saying, the hub as well. It's all there isn't it? Like you can, it's like you can, if, if any of the listeners have not checked out the website yet, definitely go and do it. Scroll through the courses you'll want to do most of them, lots of them. Just pace yourself. Uh, and it is very exciting though. Like yeah, you sort of just have to choose what works for you, I guess, at the time. Um, but I think that's really lovely. I can tell that it fills your cup to see and to celebrate the success of these authors. It's beautiful. Yeah, it really does. It just makes me so happy. Well, you can, you can tell, and I think that's why it's successful as well, because you're driving it from a place of just, um, just honesty and um, and happiness too, isn't it? Mm-hmm. Um, so it's six, six people in the first course. Mm-hmm. How many are you getting through in a year now? Like, that's a very good question. It's a stat I need to look up. I don't, I dunno. Yeah, because they fill up. They definitely book out. Yeah. A lot of the courses book out, so you, you do have to be quick when you get onto it. And, um, so it's not just, it's just the website and the courses, but also, uh, the podcast as well. Yeah. That's been around for a long time now. So many episodes, so many amazing authors being interviewed and so much information shared. It's a free resource as well. Mm-hmm. Um, tell me how that came about.
Valerie Khoo:Oh, that's a very good question. It came about a while ago, I think over, you know how over Christmas you have that week where literally you've got nothing to do?
Tina Strachan:Yeah. So
Valerie Khoo:you dunno what day it is, you dunno what's happening. So I thought to myself, oh. I should start a podcast because I'm not busy enough. And initially I co-hosted the podcast with the lovely Alison Tate, uh, who's the author Al Tate. And I remember just creating, I can't even remember on how I create on Photoshop or something. Uh, just a mockup of podcast. Cover art and with her and me on it. And I just sent it to her and she said, okay. So we started on this journey together, and then now she's gone off to do other fantastic things with, with, um, your kids next read. Uh, and I've absolutely enjoyed continuing on with the podcast, uh, by myself. But now I have roving reporters. So Nat and Dean are roving reporters and they do a fantastic job, um, interviewing authors, but, and also contributing to the podcast.
Tina Strachan:Yeah. Uh, and that, so how long ago was it when it started the podcast? Oh goodness. That's a good question. I should have these stats.
Valerie Khoo:I should probably down should have these stats.
Tina Strachan:I did, I did actually try
Valerie Khoo:to have a look because the thing is before that, before that there was, um, that was, so this is the second iteration of the podcast. Mm-hmm. Before that we had what was. Imaginatively called the Australian Writer Center Podcast. Mm-hmm. So there's actually more than 600. There's probably over a thousand, um, episodes that are online. But that, that was a, a different beast because that was in the very early days of podcasting.
Tina Strachan:Yeah. Ah, yes. That'cause that's what I was going to say. That wasn't the early days. That was quite a novel concept then to, um, yeah. And probably, definitely wouldn't have been as much information around as there is now. Like you can just easily Google it and everyone does it just. You know, from home with the most basic of setups, which is very handy. Mm-hmm. But, uh, yeah, back then that would've, that would've been quite novel. Um, that's really started. So you, so from all your hundreds of guests that you have interviewed on the podcast, what is the one interview that has stood out to you the most?
Valerie Khoo:I really enjoyed talking to Christos Tsiolkas. I thought he was awesome. I think he's an incredible author. I think he contributes so much to the literary fabric in, in Australia, and um, and he's just a really lovely person as well, you know, so, um, that, that's definitely one of them. I really enjoyed talking to. Um. Ed Ays who wrote his memoir. Oh, it was about his memoir, whole notes. Um, and, uh, I, I just loved that book and I just loved the, the, the subtlety and the nuance with which he wrote the book, but also just. You know, he's, he's my conversation with him. I
Tina Strachan:guess I'm a fan, you know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well that's the, one of the fun parts of having your own podcast too, is it's a really, well, I know for myself it's like, it's a really good way of getting people to talk to you. That would probably maybe just be like, uh, who's this person? Um, yeah. So it's, you know, you get to. Really enjoyable, isn't it? You can just ask them all these questions that you, that you desperately wanna know and fan out a little bit too. Be a bit of a fan girl sometimes if you wanna. Um, so what is some of the best advice that your guests have shared in an in interview that's really stuck with you? It
Valerie Khoo:is actually very straightforward advice. But it's sometimes hard for people to, um, execute that advice for some reason. And that is simply, simply to believe that it's possible and obviously to work towards it. You still need to not just believe you need to actually write the book, but I cannot tell you the number of people that I come across just in life or festivals or, or those sorts of things, who. Believe that it's a closed shop who believe that they will never get a book deal. And I'm like, well, okay. If you want, if you believe that. That's what's gonna happen. Yeah. So fundamentally, and that's why I, I also showcase a lot of our graduates because it shows that it is possible. And the same with your podcast. You know, you, you talk about the book deal and, and, and you show that it's possible and to show people's journeys to publication, not just of successful, already successful authors because they've got, you know, the wisdom and insight that. That they can talk about writing, but also slightly newer ones because you can see that they weren't writers before they were physiotherapists or they were whatever, right? And they believed it's possible and it happened. So it's actually really simple. It's not actually a writing technique or a journey to publication technique at the core of it, you need to know that it's possible, and I cannot tell you the number of stories I hear out there from organizations from. You know, people who are in the writing industry who just bang on about how hard it is and, and, and how it's almost impossible to get through the slush pile. Well, if you are going to listen to that, you, that's gonna affect you and you are going to believe it's hard and it's gonna be hard. Whereas if you actually. And I, and I'm not saying this in any kind of woowoo manifestation kind of way. I, it's just fact. You just need to believe it's possible.'cause quite simply it is possible.
Tina Strachan:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I, I agree. Yeah. You can call it manifestation, or you could call it taking the steps to get where you wanna be and to achieve your goal. Yeah, they're, they're very similar. Aren't they manifesting something? I mean, there's a lot of, I would, wouldn't even delve into that. There
Valerie Khoo:are people, there are people who take the steps to be where they wanna be in order to achieve their goal, and, and yet don't believe it's possible. Mm. They say, I'm, see, I'm doing these steps and I'm not getting anywhere. You see, so that's great. You should do that. Yeah. But you need to fundamentally believe it's possible. And if you find that hard, you need to surround yourself with people who believe it's possible and not surround yourself with the, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the pessimists.
Tina Strachan:Yep. No, that's probably true for a lot of things in life, isn't it? Yes. Uh, with positivity. Uh, yes, I agree. That's such a powerful message. Believe it's possible. Um. I, yeah. You know, and I, I get it. Like e everyone's heard those stories, those negative stories. Um, you know, there's certainly authors who have come from, I don't know, backgrounds or they, where they have done a, I dunno, a lot of study or they've always just been. Hugely gifted at, at writing and the pathway sort of seems a little bit more open to them, or people with profiles that are getting book deals. You know, there's lots of discussion about, you know, people that already have a status or celebrity status that, that, um, are getting signed a lot easier than others, which definitely can make it harder for people, but you know, especially. Like listening to your podcast, listen to the So You Wanna Be a Writer podcast and the rest of the episodes on the book deal. We are just interviewing, just we've interviewed so many people who just wrote for the fun of it and loved it and it was their joy. And you know, they all have day jobs and they all, you know, many of them have families and just very regular lives and just. Put themselves out there, um, you know, believed in what they were, what they were doing, and what they were writing. And it came to them all. And all different pathways. So many different pathways, isn't it? There's never, absolutely not. There is not one pathway is there?
Valerie Khoo:Yeah, for sure, for sure. You know, you just, you need to, you need to understand that it's possible. I, I, I, I was talking to somebody at a conference and it wa this wasn't for a book, but it was for an article, and I'm an, an expert at, um, feature articles and I'm, you know, really, uh, I mentor a lot of people. To pitch feature articles that then get published. So I really know what I'm talking about. So, um, this woman was talking about a particular article that she wanted to pitch to, like a high profile magazine, and she was telling me about it and it was actually a really good idea. And I said, and she had the, the goods, you know what I mean? I knew she'd be able to do it. And I said, all you need to do is pitch that, but just change this. I knew that that thing that she needed to change was. Essential and it would get her over the line. And it was extraordinary because she's sitting right in front of me and she said, oh, so it's not possible. Then I said, no, no. Did you hear what I said? I said, this is a really great idea and you will totally get it over the line if you just change this bits this bit. And she's like, oh yeah. It was like. She was deaf for something. She wasn't deaf. She just, she just assumed, she just wanted to believe that it was not possible. And I was actually telling her, this is how you get there. And she just kept saying, oh, right, yeah, it's a closed child. It's not possible. I'm like, I, I didn't know what to
Tina Strachan:say. Yeah, that's interesting. And maybe it's be that ingrained message always of the, like you said, being a close shop. Yes. Or, or negative feedback means no or not, I mean, it shouldn't be negative, but, um, you know, being asked constructive and being asked to change things and, you know, I've met lots of people whose pathways to publication have involved sending it out to whoever agents or publishers, and being asked to change. Or, or have had to change because they've worked through it. Particular parts of the story. Huge parts of the story. Mm-hmm. Um. But, but have, but that's all part of it. You know, you people can still want your work. Um, and it may look different when you, when it actually gets published as to when you hand it in, but that's what working with people like yourself as a mentor and the publishers and their, their editors, it's all just like a massive masterclass, just learning off these people. Um, you know, they, they may have suggestions and. Often afterwards, probably most of the time you realize that because they, these are the experts giving you that advice. Uh, if you've taken on board and, uh, you make those changes or whatever you need to do, it's often better for it.
Valerie Khoo:Yeah, absolutely. And, and the thing with this lady is that it was a tiny, tiny thing. There was no structural change. There was no, it was just the tiny inclusion, but she just wanted to hear that it was not possible.
Tina Strachan:Yeah, because it was too hard to, it was almost too big to believe that it could be. Yes. Yeah. That's got, that's, that's sort of sad, isn't it? That we've just Yes. You know, so negatively, uh, ingrained in our, in our minds like that. Can I ask you a question about articles though, Valerie? Sure. You were saying, and your and expert articles. Uh. Is that a good way for people to, uh, because they're very different to writing books, obviously. Mm-hmm. But is that a good way for people to practice their writing skills, uh, practice trying to, uh, you know, in the publishing industry, trying to submit for the publishing industry? Is that something that people can do maybe while they're trying, if they've got a novel that they're trying to have? Published. Traditionally,
Valerie Khoo:they are two extremely different skills. Mm-hmm. And I know a lot of, um, authors who write articles, uh, as a way of earning income while they're writing their manuscript, but one isn't gonna lead to the other necessarily. Um, having said that, that actually did happen to me. The publisher read my articles and then they. Approached me, however that was for nonfiction. So that's different. But if you're writing fiction, that's entirely different to writing a nonfiction feature article. Mm-hmm. So it really only works for people who actually want to earn their income that way while they're writing the fiction, um, mouse manuscript. Um, but they, that they are very, very different skills.
Tina Strachan:Mm-hmm. But this is a thing with the, the a WC is that they do offer courses for fiction writing, but also there's copywriting. Yeah, for sure. Um, as well, there's all these other, um. Courses that aren't just for fiction writing or, or writing novels or picture books and things like that. Yeah. Um, okay. So back to the A WC and the courses that they offer, uh, they really do, like I said, cover off on everything from and all in different forms too. Like they could be short and self-paced courses to year long mentoring or in-person workshops. What have you found is the most popular course that is on offer, and why do you think that is?
Valerie Khoo:I think it's creative writing stage one, and I think it's because that is a introductory course for people who either, um, just wanna dip their toe in the water to see whether they like writing and it's only five weeks and then they can, it's, it's not a big time investment for them. Uh, it's also really popular for people who, they remember how much they enjoyed writing at school and they just haven't done it since.'cause life takes over kids, you know, work all of that. And now they're at a stage where, hmm, I want to rediscover whether I still like it. And so that's a entry point for them as well. And so this. Introductory five week course covers a lot, but it's not a massive commitment for you. And you'll, you'll know by the end whether you wanna take the next step or not. Um, and you, you might just enjoy it for five weeks and have a great time, and that's the end of it. Or you might go, oh, there's something here. I wanna pursue it further. So that's definitely one of our most popular courses.
Tina Strachan:Mm. And is it, does that cover off on all types of creative writing? So it doesn't matter if you are someone who likes to write picture books or like romantic, it, it, does it cover off on everything for, yeah, it's,
Valerie Khoo:it's at, it's at an introductory level, so it's not gonna go into the real specifics of all sorts of different genres because you're still discovering. But having said that, you know, if you already know that you are into a particular kind of genre, like romantic or psychological thriller or whatever, it's still a brilliant entry point.
Tina Strachan:Yeah. Yeah. And then later
Valerie Khoo:on you can go into the more genre specific courses.
Tina Strachan:Yes. Yes. And that's what I did actually, I did the writing children's novels course, um, which I really enjoyed. I think that wasn't that long either. I think it might've been six weeks or, or so. Yeah. That's fun. That's five weeks. Five weeks. There you go. What I really liked about it as well was the. Group of all the other members that were doing the course or the students. Um, you share your work and you do, you can read other people's work, which, and I think that was, we provided feedback as well, which is such a good way of learning, too, providing feedback on other people's work as well. Um, and then you just get the, the views of so many other people.'cause everybody reads things differently, don't they? Everybody has a different bit of advice. And then also having your, your teacher as. And, uh, feedback as well, which I found really helpful. Um, and then the other one, which I tell everyone about as well is the, uh, it was called your author website. Do you still have that one? Oh, yes. It was so practical. Honestly, I, I did it, uh, probably a few years ago because I need, knew I needed to do a website and I had literally no idea where to start. And I mean, everyone learns differently. And for me, I just needed to, to hear and see someone kind of explain it, um, but also explain why. You need, you should have the things and what works for an author's website. Like, can you just do one page or you know, certainly don't do 20 pages, but here's the reason why I don't do 20 pages. But it really walked it all. Then it got down to nitty gritty as in like, you know, I can't even remember what the terms are now, but you know, your host, whoever your host and, um, who can go to, to help design it and all those sorts of things. It was super practical. I really enjoyed that one.
Valerie Khoo:Yeah. I think that that's really important is that people need to leave with very clear steps in any of our courses. It's not just theory that if you do the course properly, you will leave with very clear steps on what you need to be doing next. Mm-hmm. To achieve your goal. Yeah.
Tina Strachan:Yeah, yeah. No, I
Valerie Khoo:certainly found that. So that was a really
Tina Strachan:helpful one. So, Valerie, can I just ask, uh, overall, it's a big question. What have you learned overall this time of being the CEO of, of the Writer's center and, um, interviewing so many authors as part of the podcast? What's, what have you learned that's sort of been the biggest takeaway for you or, or about the industry? What, what's, what's the big sort of feedback on that? This is, oh.
Valerie Khoo:I have learned that the publishing industry and the world of writers in Australia, and obviously I learnt this ages ago, right. But I guess this is useful for people who are new to this world, um, and who are just wondering who were just on the, on, on taking their first steps is that the publishing industry in Australia? And the world of authors, uh, it's one of the nicest, nicest, nicest industries you could, they, they're full of just lovely, genuine people. I'm not just saying that I'm involved in lots of other areas. I'm involved in the world of art, you know, visual arts. I'm involved in the world of business. I'm a board director of companies, and there is nothing. Like the writing industry in terms of lovely, lovely people. Uh, it's so wonderful. It's so safe, it's so nurturing, it's so friendly. So I guess, and people who already are in it already know this, but if there are new people who are still wondering whether it's going to be competitive or, or, or, um, scary. It's just not. It's the nicest group of people you could possibly want.
Tina Strachan:Mm-hmm. I agree. And we, it, I think it comes up in almost every episode about community. Mm-hmm. You know, and if you, um, you know, if you are even before you're published, well before you're published, or even just thinking about tipping your toe in to join those community groups. Yeah. Because it's. It's pretty incredible. Like you said, everyone just builds each other up, don't they? Yes. There's, there's no one's bringing anyone down. Um, yeah, I've, I've definitely found that myself as well. Everyone is so lovely and you can learn so much and I think everybody's, um, drive and back to what you were saying before about surrounding yourself with. With those positive people that are saying those positive things, that helps to push you along. And, you know, um, I have a friend who's part of a writing group and for them, even if this is some more inspiration for people thinking about joining a group, is um. They had been together for a while as critique group, and then one person got published and then the next person got published and then the next person to the point where they all ended up being published at some point. Yeah. It just was like, it was a bit infectious, I think.
Valerie Khoo:Yes.
Tina Strachan:That's, yeah,
Valerie Khoo:I love, I love seeing that happen.
Tina Strachan:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. No, that's, yeah. Lots of fun as well. Uh. So Valerie, is that your top tip for, there's lots of top tips there. We always ask our, um, our guests for a top tip, but there was quite a few there. So what about believing believe in yourself or to join a community? What's your top tip for authors that are trying to get published? You don't dunno
Valerie Khoo:what you don't know. And so there are some authors who, or, or, or some people who are writing manuscripts who, um, truly believe that they can get. The information they need from YouTube and TikTok and you know, wherever. And you can, there is no doubt, but if you don't actually know if it's coming from somebody who. Knows what they're talking about or if it's coming from somebody who just did it and is sharing their experience. But it's not, and while that's certainly interesting, it's not necessarily the most efficient way to, to, to learn that writing device or to do that literary technique or whatever. And so I think that what's really important is a, you dunno what you dunno, and therefore you need to be open to. Constant learning, and I know some authors who are there on their sixth book or, but they're still doing courses because you, it's, it's never a waste to learn. And you'll, you might do a course. Or you might do whatever, learn something, and there'll just be that, that, that gem that can make the difference in, in your next character or in the way you write dialogue or in the, the, the, the order of scenes that you've written things. And so I think that it's really important to be, um, open to new learning opportunities because it can fast track not only your learning. Sometimes it can fast track your, um. Road to publication and other times it can absolutely fast track, uh, your connection. So meeting other people in the community, um, it might not create, it might not, you know, uh, create a party where you suddenly go and meet every person that you need to know to move forward. But you'll meet people who you then connect with and then you'll follow each other online, or you'll catch up at an event or a conference or something. And it absolutely fosters. Those kind of connections, which I think is so important. That's
Tina Strachan:incredible advice. That's so true. Uh, especially about the connections thing. I totally agree. And it may not be, um, something that happens straight away. It could be something that happens to you down the track where those connections sort of fall into line, uh, for you. But yeah, again, it's about community and, um, yeah, just constant learning. I love that idea. That's incredible. Well, thank you Valerie Co, for being our guest. This week on the Book Deal Podcast and sharing all your incredible advice with us, I encourage every listener who hasn't yet checked out the courses at the a WC or the podcast with all its free, wonderful advice and inspiring advice. Um, there really is something. There for everyone. And the courses are offered internationally too, are they? Yeah, we have,
Valerie Khoo:yeah, we have students from all over the world, you know? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I mean, the majority are in Australia, but we definitely have students from all over the world. Yep, yep,
Tina Strachan:yep. We have lots of international listeners as well, so even they can check out the website if they'd like. Thank you so much for sharing your time with us today, Valerie.
Valerie Khoo:You are most welcome. Thank you so much for having me on the show
Tina Strachan:Thank you for listening to the book Deal podcast. We're able to bring you these weekly writerly chats because of our amazing patrons. Join the TPD family by becoming a member of our Patreon community@patreon.com slash the book deal podcast. And if you love the pod, please give us a rating or review. And don't forget to follow us on Instagram and Facebook.