The Book Deal
Motivation and inspiration for emerging writers, helping them pave their own pathway to publishing success.
The Book Deal
Kate Mildenhall on publishing and resilience, publicity tips and what it means to be a good industry citizen
Kate Mildenhall on publishing and resilience, tips for interviewing other writers and what it means to be a good industry citizen
Madeleine interviews acclaimed and bestselling author Kate Mildenhall. Kate gives an honest account of her journey to publication, detailing the rejections and the success along the way.
Kate's latest novel, THE HIDING PLACE (November 2025, S&S), described as 'White Lotus meets The Slap, is a razor-sharp literary thriller about what happens when good people make bad decisions. Kate discusses themes like land ownership, the environment, and the evolving dynamics of long-term friendships. Kate offers valuable tips for writers navigating publicity, handling interviews, and maintaining the momentum in their writing careers. This engaging and generous chat is a must-listen for aspiring authors and literary enthusiasts.
00:00 Welcome to the Book Deal Podcast
00:56 Introducing Kate Mildenhall
04:04 Kate's Journey to Becoming an Author
13:37 The Rollercoaster of Publishing
19:26 Navigating Rejection and Finding Success
29:27 Tips for Authors on Publicity and Interviews
34:45 Setting Boundaries in Publicity
37:18 Discussing 'The Hiding Place'
40:02 From Hummingbird to The Hiding Place
41:06 Camping Memories and Inspirations
49:40 The Challenges of Writing Multi-POV
57:29 Themes of Land Ownership and Environmentalism
01:03:50 Future Writing Plans and Dreams
01:07:31 Final Tips for Writers
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This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books.
Natasha Rai:We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal. So no matter what stage of writing you're at, we've got you covered. I'm Tina Strachan. I'm Madeleine Cleary. And I'm Natasha Rai. And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors one deal at a
Madeleine Cleary:time. The book Deal Podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on. And pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging. It's Madeleine here. I'm not sure that author, writing teacher and Festival Fairy, Kate Milden Hall needs much of an introduction. You may have come across Kate hosting book launches or floating around writing festivals, or perhaps you may have listened to one or more of her 200 plus interviews on the first time podcast or during her big book tours for a highly acclaimed and award listed novels, Skylarking, the Mother Fault, the Hummingbird Effect, and her Delightful Picture Book To Stir With Love. Kate is probably one of the most generous writing industry citizens I have ever met. Not only is her advice on point, but she champions and pitches our staple authors far and wide. I spoke with Kate a couple of months before the launch of her fourth novel, the Hiding Place Out Now with Simon and Schuster, which I may have gushed over at length. This episode went way over time, but I didn't have the heart to cut it. So settle in with a couple and your post-it notes and enjoy. Kate Mildenhall. Welcome to the Book Deal Podcast. Well, thank you so much for having me, Madeleine. It's delightful to be here. Someone actually once said to me that you are the queen of this industry. What are you thinking about
Kate Mildenhall:that?
I do
Kate Mildenhall:not think
I'm
Kate Mildenhall:the queen of this industry at all. I think, um, you know, I get about a lot. I certainly get about a lot. I, I will happily take on Festival Fairy because I do quite like being a festival fairy and I get around to a lot of festivals. But I also think there's a bit of, um, you know, exte mother hen eldest daughter, eldest grandchild in there that I like, you know, I like everyone to come along to all the parties and everyone to feel included. So there's something about that, but Queen, definitely not. Um, I just, I take very seriously that idea of, of being a good industry citizen. And I think Madeleine, you know, when I started like you, I. I didn't come up through lit journals or, or anything like that. I, I came into writing later in my life when my kids were little through RMIT and I didn't know anyone, um, I didn't know any writers and, um, I am forever grateful to the people who did a bit of that kind of taking me under their wing or, um, telling me what it looked like behind the scenes or giving advice, you know, all of those things. So I just, I like to give that.
Madeleine Cleary:Well, I think you've definitely inspired a lot of people, I think, to, to give back to the industry.'cause this is what it's all about, being part of the industry and you are a very special part of our industry. So you are also a published author of five books. You're a writing teacher, a coach podcaster. Well, you were a podcaster. Still are. Yeah. Yeah. And you are, you like, you just self to self described yourself. You are a fair, a festival fairy. Um, you also facilitate lots of book events for many authors as well. Um, so back when you were publishing Skylarking for the first time in 2016, is this something you planned for?
Kate Mildenhall:No, absolutely not. I, I went back to uni when the kids were small because, and I always say this because there was this weird gap that I'd never, um, kind of considered before, which sounds ridiculous, but that, that kind of maternity leave was the first time that I'd been, um. Out of full-time work for a really long time. And, um, I guess I'd been a teacher before that, that was the first time that I had time maybe to let this urge to write, bubble up inside myself. Um, but the deeply pragmatic person inside my head who probably was still informed by that careers teacher who told me that, you know, um, people aren't right, people don't become writers, didn't think that I was going back to study writing to be a writer. I had told myself that I was going back to study writing to, you know, write educational, um, texts or to edit, um, to do some website editing for educational things, which is what I've been doing at State Library. Um, and so even the fact that I wrote Skylight anything longer than a short story, which I'd never done in my life, was a surprise to me. Really? Yes. That's a surprise to me. Yeah. I, I had only ever written, you know, 3000 word stories, like that's what short stories are, and that's what I'd written. And when it got bigger than that, it still kind of flumes me. And it's why we all talk about that idea that the first novel is in many ways the easiest.'cause you've got no idea what you're doing or how hard it's going to be. And, um, there's part of it that just comes from the energy and the heat. And I think that in a way that's what we're always trying to get back to, uh, is that feeling of, of writing your first novel. Um, but yeah, so the, so the process itself was a surprise. And as I've talked about a lot, you know, it happened through the course and the idea of having to turn up each week with a new piece of writing to workshop. So that's how I got the words down at the start. Uh, and then it was when I had 30 or 40,000 words, I was like, holy moly, this is a novel. And, um. And, you know, the publication of Skylarking was a lucky break that I'm still extraordinarily grateful for. And I know that parts of it, parts of it were luck that I made myself. So I'm, I'm not just gonna say that it was lucky, but it, um, was an unusual path to publication and I'm so grateful for it. Madeleine,
Madeleine Cleary:do you wanna talk about some of those unusual parts then?
Kate Mildenhall:So, um, the, the way that, uh, Skylarking was published in short is that I had submitted a short story to a competition at that stage. It was through the Emerging Writers Festival and a university, maybe through Monash. Um, and I didn't place, but I, I was shortlisted and, or I dunno, commended or something. Um, but one of the. Judges was Aviva Tofield, who at that stage was editor at Black Inc. Fiction editor at Black Inc. And she contacted me via email and said, have you got a manuscript? And I said, my goodness, no. Like I only write short stories,
Madeleine Cleary:but what a question to be asked as well. Like, that's yeah's like a dream, isn't it?
Kate Mildenhall:It was a dream. And, and so, you know, it must have been a year later or eight months later, um, I saw her at an event and I went to this event, it was at the Wheeler Center and I went because the teachers at RMIT told us to get involved, uh, in the writing industry. And, you know, at that stage join Twitter and, um, get along to events and see what was happening. And uh, Aviva was there and at the end in that bit where everyone's milling around, I went up to her and said, oh, you know, hello, my name's Kate. You know, you sent me an email once and I actually do have a manuscript. I'm working on something at the moment. And I think I was trying, I think I was, um. Applying for Una or something like that. And uh, and I dunno, I asked her about that and she said, oh, you should send it to me. And I did. And, you know, not very long after that, she signed it. So it wasn't finished.
Madeleine Cleary:Hang on, hang on. Had you hadn't even finished it, had you polished it? It No.
Kate Mildenhall:You sent I sent it. I was like, I was vomiting. I still remember, I've probably got notes somewhere about like how scared I was and, but I didn't know any of the rules. Like I really didn't. Yes. Because everyone
tells you you gotta have, it's, you get one. Yeah. And, and, and,
Kate Mildenhall:yeah, so I didn't really know. I, I sent something and I remember I was on a weekend away with girlfriends and, um, Aviva must have called and, and it was really big and someone had just announced their pregnancy and, you know, like. I wasn't picking up my phone, I didn't realize about the momentousness of, uh, you know, an editor calling. And, um, and then she must have messaged again the next day. And I said to my best friend, you know, like, do you think I should call her back? And, um, and you know, she, she wanted to, she wanted, she was interested, she wanted to buy it. And um, and then when the, when she'd finally taken it through acquisitions, I remember I was at,'cause she, she was only new to Black Ink, so it was the first fiction, um, they'd signed. And I was at swimming with my two little kids and my dad, because you have to have another person come along to help, you know, with the toddler while you're in, with the baby in the pool. So we're all chlorine and, you know, getting the, I don't know, hot chocolates or something afterwards. And she called and she said, um, we'd like to, we'd like to make you an offer. And I'd still don't think, even to this day, I still don't think anything. Matches that moment, uh, in terms of my writing career and the kind of the highlights
Madeleine Cleary:because you, you at that time, you don't really know much more, is it, you kind of feel like you've hit this pinnacle moment and that everything afterwards is gonna be rosy.
Kate Mildenhall:Well, exactly. And you know, I was talking about this with, um, at Toni Jordan's launch the other night actually, Madeleine, because not long after that, or maybe around that time, she'd published a piece in, what was the, um, writer's Victoria publication at that time called the Victorian Writer. And it was all about how. Writers think that if they just get that publishing deal, then everything, they'll never want for anything again. They'll, they'll, they'll say, I'm happy now. Uh, and she was saying, of course, you know, that's ridiculous because then you want the next thing. You want the sales and then you want the movie deal. Then the good reviews.
Madeleine Cleary:Why can't we just enjoy what we have? Why we always want more
Kate Mildenhall:and we, we just, we just cannot. But I think, you know, what it's taught me to over time and getting to talk to so many writers is that there are some moments now, which I, I really do try and take a moment and say, ah, this is good. Like the getting of a new idea.'cause I only get one at a time. So the getting of a new idea, um. That feeling of finishing a draft, um, even if it's only the first draft or or whatever. Um, those kind of moments, I really do try and sit in and say, Hey, remember this is the reason you're doing it. Like this is the good bit and you think it's gonna be launch night or the day you see your book on the shelf. And those, those are great, but they're often so caught up in a whole lot of, um, other emotions and complexity and expectation and nerves and all the other stuff that often it's those quiet bits where it's just you and your writing where you think this is a good decision I have made to do this thing.
Madeleine Cleary:Yes. And I feel as well that I've always been trying to search for that feeling of play as well. Yeah. Getting back to the writing,'cause there's such a playfulness about it, rather than make it about a business or something that you have to produce or it's an output.
Kate Mildenhall:That's exactly it. I love that you mentioned play, because I think too, um, I was quite, for a time wrapped up in the, the romantic ideal of it, it being an an anxious leading, horrendous painful kind of endeavor to to write tortured artist. The tortured artist. Absolutely. And, um, and a couple of things changed that in general, me, you know, trying to deal with kind of ongoing anxiety in my life, which was like, why would I do this if it was, if I was making it, um, so, so hard on myself. Um, but also that idea of that idea of play that, um, particularly Elizabeth Gilbert talks about, I remember being kind of profoundly moved by hearing her speak about. That playfulness and the joy and, and finding that and being, and a kind of a gratitude, I guess, without being too twee about it for the fact that, that we get to do this thing and make stuff up on the page. Uh, and that there has to be play and joy in that. Otherwise, there's really no point in doing it.
Madeleine Cleary:I'm getting tingles. I think it's lovely. That's just, yeah, and it's a nice reminder, I think, for me at the moment. I'm sure for many listeners too, to find that. Um, so it sounds like your first book, you had a pretty dream run. I did. Uh, yes. And I had a great experience. And you probably expect, well, this will be then what will happen for all the rest of the books that will come out. Right. And this is your career. You're going up
Kate Mildenhall:progress. I'm going up. I'm just gonna keep writing books right here. That's what I thought.
Madeleine Cleary:Yes. So tell us what happened
Kate Mildenhall:then. That didn't happen, Madeleine, that didn't happen. In short, what happened is that, um, that they bought my, my next book, um, on, um, uh, you know, a kind of a pitch. And can you talk about
Madeleine Cleary:that actually?'cause I think that's, that's a actually an uncommon thing, isn't it? To, to practice on a pitch or a partial, I think is what they call
Kate Mildenhall:Yes. It wa it wasn't even a partial, it was absolutely just an idea that Sky lacking did relatively well for, um, debut. It was historical fiction. So the, the first problem was, I guess they didn't, they wanted me to write historical fiction again. Um, and I didn't want to, partly because, um. You know, I hadn't intended to write historical fiction. That just happened to be the first story that I wrote. And, um, I really wanted to kind of play with some other ideas. But also, as I said, I only get one idea at the, at a time. And my next idea was this one about a mother on the run with her kids. And it wasn't historical. It was either contemporary or as it came to be Spec Vic. Um, and so, but they liked the idea, they bought it. I got, I mean, it was a small advance, but I, I got an advance and I wrote it and I submitted it and, uh, they didn't want it anymore. And, um, I've talked about this in, in other places, so forgive me if, if you've heard this before, but, uh, this, when I was writing the Mother Fault was when I, I started journaling, um, at the same time. And, and so I had my journal open when I got the email and, um. And so I've, I've got the record and I often use it when I'm teaching of me saying, oh my God, they don't want it. Um, I'm gonna burn this thing. I'm so humiliated. I can still feel how humiliated I felt and ashamed of what I'd written, I think as well. Um, because, you know, we all have that extreme vulnerability about what we've written. And in this case, you know, this was something that they'd wanted. And yet then I'd turned it over the thing that I'd actually written the SE and all the second book fields, and they didn't want it. So, um, yeah, I was gonna burn it. I, I've written, I wrote in my journal, you know, I'm never gonna write again. I'm never gonna look at this again. Like, it was, it was awful. But of course, um, the beauty is that, uh. Those feelings are very intense for a minute. And then we moved past them and I was super lucky, Madeleine, that um, at that point I'd got a little creative Victoria Grant to write the Mother Fault. And, um, I'd used it to get a mentorship with Charlotte Wood. Um, she was doing them at the time. She had a gap. It was just, again, kind of serendipitous. Um, and so I was working with her at that time. So I emailed her and I said, this has happened. And she said, which I will always be so grateful for, she said, delete the email. Don't look at it again.
It's
Kate Mildenhall:not useful right now. And, um, and now give yourself some time. Just give yourself a bit of time. Uh, and by the time I had kind of wept and done all the other things and got over my shame and come, come back to the work without a publisher, without an agent, I realized that, um. I was deeply invested in this book and that I was gonna finish it. And, um, you know, it, it, and that I wanted to redraft it. I knew I wanted to redraft it. Um, and it, it didn't change hugely much before it was picked up by someone else, but I was invested in it and I was gonna try and see if someone else would publish it, but, you know, this wasn't gonna be the end of me. Um, and so and so that's what I did. And by that stage, um, we were doing the podcast. Uh, we, we'd met a few writers and through the PWE, the RMIT alumni as well, I knew some writers. I was able to get an introduction, um, to an agent, to Pippa Masson at Curtis Brown. Uh, and she signed me. Mm-hmm. And then within six months, um, she'd sold the book on a two book deal, uh, to Simon Chester. So, you know, it was, and, and I guess one of the other things that I feel really fortunate for in my career is that. Is that kind of what it meant is that the Mother fault also became kind of like a debut. Uh, it was a different genre. I was with a new publisher. Um, they put a lot behind it. Uh, and so I'm, I feel very fortunate about that. It meant that in a way my biggest kind of, um, expectation and second book fields came. When I was writing and, and went on to deliver the Hummingbird effect.
Madeleine Cleary:Mm-hmm. There's so much there, Kate, and I think it's easy in hindsight, isn't it, to look back on those moments of rejection, um, and reflect on that because obviously the mother fault then went on to become a bestseller. Yeah. Um, and you've spoken about this, it's sold internationally as well. Um, so a huge success, a critical success as well. But at the time when you're in that, that when you're in that state, um, it's really hard to pick yourself up. And I think Charlotte Wood's advice about taking some time and space is a good one. Was there anything else though that helped you when you had that moment of rejection?
Kate Mildenhall:I think the other thing that helped is by that stage, um, I had other mates who were writers, and I, I think that there's part, and you will understand this as well, that um, it's such a strange industry to outsiders in that it, um. It works in odd ways. Um, the kind of business side works in odd ways, but also, I guess other artists feel like this too, that, um, that vulnerability, uh, and the fact that it feels so personal, um, when your work is rejected. Um, and I know we always try and talk about, you know, your book is not you, et cetera, but,
but
Kate Mildenhall:we put so much of ourselves onto the page. Um, so I think having other people around me who understood that, of course my friends and family were very supportive, but, but having other writers who can say, oh, yeah, you know, this time that I was rejected, or understand exactly how low you might be feeling through that is really good. And I think too, having gone through the part of the course, I mean, I was still doing the, the course at that stage too, getting a bit of a sense of what feedback can look like and. And I think around that stage two, I can't remember if someone said this to us on the podcast, but this idea that you only need one. Yes. Uh, and, and I remember maybe having given that advice to other people, but then suddenly being in a position where I was like, oh my gosh, now this is me. And I have to go out and, and find the person who will love this book and who will support it and who will wanna get behind it. Um, so, you know, so I think I, I kind of, I can't even describe how useful it had been to be able to talk to other writers, hear about their rejections and how they worked through it. Um, and also the stuff that we don't necessarily say out loud or on podcasts, the kind of talking green rooms or, um, in WhatsApp chats where, where people are talking about how many times their successful books got rejected. Um. That was all galvanizing because I knew that, I believed in my book and I thought that it would have readers. Um, and I knew enough about the industry to, to know that at that stage that my best bet was to try and get an agent to do that. So I think as, as always, like we say, the information is, is so powerful. And, and that's why sharing information with other writers, uh, is something I believe in so much.
Madeleine Cleary:Mm-hmm. Having that belief in your work, it's a, it's a really tough one, isn't it, particularly when you are an early emerging writer. When you talked about vulnerability earlier, does that ever change? You've published obviously five books now. Does that, does that change?
Kate Mildenhall:I don't think so, Madeleine, I'm so sorry to say it. Oh, damn. I always talk about it, um, as feeling un skin and, and I think, you know, with each book. Regardless. Even, even with, um, the picture book, um, there's a feeling of kind of yeah, unzipping yourself and showing your insides to everyone, um, and, and worrying how that will be received. Um, and I think there's also a thing that I find, and it's why maybe often writers will talk about how that last, um, proofread, you know, when you're doing the final one and you have to hand it over and you, there's this kind of tug where you're like, I don't wanna give it over yet. Because I guess when you finally do that sign off, you are saying, this is the best thing that I could do. Um, and often, often, for me anyway, it is, it, it's never quite the kind of perfect dream that I had of it. You never quite. Reach the ambition. And you know, I've talked so much about that extraordinary George Saunders, um, uh, quote that he talks about, about the, the kind of golden orb that you have when you first come up with an idea and that the process of writing is dropping that golden orb and it, it's smashing into a thousand pieces. And then your job as the writer is to put it back together and you never quite get it perfect. There's still cracks, isn't there? There's still cracks and you can see where you've put the seams together. But so I think that that other part is the vulnerability of saying, of having to have a level of, of pride in your work. You putting it out there, you're saying, this is what I've made, this is the best thing that I've made. Um, but that's really hard. That's really hard to do, I think as well. And, and so I think that those two aspects, the fact that, um, regardless of. Of what kind of fiction, nonfiction, what whatever you're writing that there, it, it's so hugely personal, um, to put that writing out, but also to have to stand by it and say, this is the best thing that I could make right now is, is very vulnerable.
Madeleine Cleary:No, I agree. I've, I've never spoken about this before publicly, but, um, when the Butterfly women came out, um, the, on the day it came out, arts Hub did a review and gave a three star of the book. Is there anything worse than a three star? No, I know because it's, it's, it's like a middling review. You'd rather go, they hate it all. Yeah. Give
Kate Mildenhall:it a one and hate it. And so then all your mates are gonna jump on and go. Yeah, exactly. I'm so sorry that happened. Oh no. It was, why did you read
Madeleine Cleary:it? Well, I know I didn't, I couldn't until I had a glass of wine in hand and then my husband read it to me. Yes, that was the day of publication. And at the time I thought, well, I just wanna pull it from, I wanna pull the book from publications. Obviously people are just gonna be like, oh, it's an okay book. Like it's just, okay.
Mm-hmm. And
Madeleine Cleary:of course, in hindsight, and you know, you, you get all these people that love it, people that absolutely love your work and you, and people bolster you, they tell you about it, but you don't have that when you get those, you know, initial early reviews. And, um, last night I thought,'cause I haven't read it since then, I'm like, I'm gonna read it. And I reread it and I was like, it wasn't that bad. It's not,
Kate Mildenhall:it's never that bad. It's never that bad. And that's the thing too, that I think, um, I can't remember who recommended to do this. I wish I could, um, you know, put a name to every piece of ama amazing advice I've got, um, over time. But someone said to make a folder of, um. You know, beautiful compliments about your work or great reviews so that you can go back into it and bolster yourself in the future in those times where you are trying to remind yourself that you are worthy and exactly that you wrote Well, um, because in the period of publication as well, it is such a rollercoaster. You, you're like all nerve endings everywhere and you're getting this extraordinary feedback sometimes, and then you're getting haters or reviews that aren't as great as you wanted or someone else's books got massive sales. Like there's always something that can make you feel really shit about how your own work is going. Um, and so I think being able to just kind of quietly retreat to a place that is like, it's okay. Exactly. Remember these other things. Um, remember someone thought this was good enough to publish and that's, that's. Pretty bloody good in this country. Uh, so, you know, let's just go back to there.
Madeleine Cleary:That's right. Putting your armor together and it's exactly piecing together of the armor that you need sometimes. Yeah.
Kate Mildenhall:On, on the, the flip side of all of that is that someone, and it might be Catherine, um, might be someone else, talks about jumping on good reads and getting a, a clear sense of the kind of middling reviews straight up. Mm. So that, you know, what people are gonna speak to. I couldn't do that. What the complaints are. Are they gonna say, you know, I know in Hummingbird it was a lot of like, whoa, you know, like, this jumps around a lot. Like there's a lot of stuff in here, or people talking about the COVID sections. I was like, okay, cool. I can handle that. Like, they're all right. I'm, I'm willing to take that on the chin. Um, because often the, often the criticism that gets us in the gut the most is things that we've been worried about. And so. You know, so to see that it's not that, that it's something else or you know, like, I don't know, the sex was too wild. Like, great, go for it. Please complain. All you want about that, uh, there's a bunch of other readers who will be really happy with that, you know, so that can be useful too.
Madeleine Cleary:And that's why the three stars are kind of the worst sometimes.'cause they can get underneath the skin of the book sometimes. Those little things Absolutely. That you, yeah. Yeah. I don't check my good rates actually, to be honest. My,
Kate Mildenhall:yeah. Smart, smart. Do you, uh, I have done in the past, uh, I, I, now, the thing that I've stopped doing is that I used to have a Google alert on like my name plus the name of the book. Um, and one night before I went to sleep, um, and it was pretty late and, you know, like a review came up in the age in SMH, uh, and I read it again. It's not a terrible review. There was one line in it that cut me to the core and after that I was like, that's it. I'm gonna get them delivered either via, you know, someone at my publisher or like you. I'm gonna get my husband to read them to me with a glass of wine. So I've taken off the Google. That's a good tip
Madeleine Cleary:for everybody. Yeah. With reviews, glass of wine and hand must, that's a must glass of
Kate Mildenhall:wine and hand. And do not put a Google review on yourself in your book. Do not
Madeleine Cleary:put a Google Review. A
Kate Mildenhall:A Google. Google Alert. Sorry. Alert.
Madeleine Cleary:Okay. Do not, that sounds, that's a good, um, you've interviewed so many writers. I wanna talk about that.'cause I feel like you've got a lot of tips'cause a lot of authors are a little bit nervous and anxious before being interviewed during their publicity period.
Yes. Um,
Madeleine Cleary:do you have any, like, any just quick tips for writers who are being interviewed? Like what are some of your standout interviews and is there anything that's a pattern with them?
Kate Mildenhall:One of the things that I think can be really useful, um, either if you're being interviewed or if you're in a position to interview someone else, is to find that person, uh, online on a podcast or on a video. Um, if they're a debut writer, they might just have done a couple of videos for their, um, publisher or on their social media to get a sense of how they speak. Mm-hmm. Um, whether they answer questions slowly, whether they go fast, um, whether they, there's some people who talk like they're giving perfect quotes, and then they'll just stop. So you know that that's your cue to then go on and ask a question. So it just allows you to feel a little bit more prepared. And certainly if you're being interviewed, um, and it's a certain type of podcast, um, or even a radio segment can sometimes, you know, there'll be a certain way that they interview. Yes, very quick, quick, isn't it radio? Yeah. And it's so really, super quick, quick. So you wanna make sure that, um, you kind of have an understanding of what the brief is, of what you're gonna talk about. And the key, the, the other key thing is to recognize that in most of these situations when you're being interviewed, the thing that you want to do is to get people interested in buying your book. So, for instance, um, very simple, but say the name of your book, you know. Possibly once or twice. Um, you want to have a couple of versions of your one sentence pitch, your one minute pitch. Um, you'll often get asked about the seed of a story or where a story came from. So to have a, a short anecdote about that. Um, you'll often get asked about what was hard or what you, or what you know was easy or what you loved about writing a book. So just to have a sense of how you might respond to some of those questions because, uh, and even to get someone to practice those kinds of questions with you can be really useful when you are going into interviews. Um. As an interviewer, I always try and, uh, let people know. I, I don't like to give questions ahead of time, but I will give them ahead of time if, if someone requests them and I'll, I'll make that clear. Um, but I do like to ask people if there's anything that they wanna tell me that means that I can make the situation more comfortable for them. Um, you know, people like, uh, Tim Winton, um, didn't want video on when I was interviewing him, just his preference. Oh, so
Madeleine Cleary:you sat, so you sat video off, did you
Kate Mildenhall:Sat video off? Oh yeah. Um, which is disconcerting for me'cause that's my preference. Mm. Because I like to read facial cues, but he didn't want that, so That's fine. Fair enough. Um, you know, some people will want a moment to sit with the question that they've been asked, and I know for me that it took me a. A couple of seasons to be able to sit with that quiet and not just fill it and try and ask the question in another way. Some people just need a little bit longer to, to process the question, and they wanna be really thoughtful about how they answer. Um, yeah, so there, there are things that work for me and I will often ask, um, before a festival panel or before an interview, you know, please let me know if there's anything that you particularly don't wanna discuss or that you particularly do wanna discuss and what that can do. You know, often people will say, no, no, it's fine, ask anything. But I think anything you can do to make, um, the person you're interviewing feel more comfortable, um, coming in because it's scary, right? Mm-hmm. It's scary, particularly if you've never done it before. Um, you can feel like you're gonna stuff up or, or say something stupid or, or not understand the question. Um, and I think as a guest. The other thing you can do is, you know, you can always ask again. You can always say, sorry, I didn't catch that. I've been on so many stages where people have said to me, sorry, can you ask that again? Or, um, I trailed off, did I answer your question? That's so perfectly okay to say those things too, rather than kind of, um, just rambling through an answer just to, to fill up space.
Madeleine Cleary:Oh, these are great tips. I'm gonna go back and re-listen to that and then take all these notes because this is perfect for both the interviewer and the interviewee. Good. It made me reflect, I think the most nervous I was for an interview for the publicity period with the Butterfly Women was actually an interview by my publicist as a mock interview. She, she mock interviewed me and it was a great practice session. It was really good and she tested me on a few things and then she gave me feedback. I think it was the giving of feedback that was most an anxiety inducing, but very wealth worthwhile. Yeah, I think so.
Really
Kate Mildenhall:worthwhile. I think the other thing, Madeleine and I used to teach, um, a kind of a, a a workshop about this, getting your head around the, the publicity period. And one of the things to recognize is, um, that what particularly media outlets will do, um, particularly for debut writers, is they want you to. They want you to spill your guts. Mm. You know, they want this kind of the most authentic, the most truthy. I mean, if you cry, brilliant. Let's get that. Um, and so one of the things that I really encourage writers to do, um, before the publicity period is to kind of make really clear boundaries about the narrative behind your book. Um, because you don't owe the media or the public, you know, your whole life. Like there's you as the writer and then there's you as private person. Um, and so a couple of the mistakes I made really early on is, um, you know, one of them was writing a piece for Sunday Life about, about my best friend myself and my best friend because Sky Laking was kind of about friendship and I'd, I'd written a really beautiful piece and then Sunday Life came back and said, oh, can you make it all about jealousy? Um, which I did, and I remember how sick I felt when it came out. Because I'd met the brief, you know, I'd done the thing that they asked and I'd given them a great piece of writing. Um, but I was like, oh, I've, I've given too much. Mm-hmm. Like, that wasn't, that wasn't mine to give. And also I feel kind of sick about how much I've opened up there. So, and I say this, even if you're writing memoir, um, you are allowed to put the constraints around what you are gonna talk about. And they can be constraints that you speak publicly about, or they can just be the ones that you know, you know, this is the boundary around the story that I'm gonna tell. And I think having your head around that before you get asked and you just in the cycle, and so you say yes, yes, yes to everything, and you, you know, give away stuff that makes you feel like you've said too much. Um. Yeah. That, that would be one thing that I encourage too.
Madeleine Cleary:That's a really good tip. We actually, uh, in, I interviewed Kylie j Metcalf, who wrote Breath and she talks about this exact thing and she ended up having to put a lot of boundaries around her social media. Um, and just posting purely about the book and not about herself.'cause she felt she was giving so much of herself. And I think Memoirists, they do, they do, but it absolutely, it doesn't matter if you're a memoir writer or a fiction writer, even in kids Lit, you still have to give a lot Yeah. Of yourself now. We should follow one of your tips, which is to mention your book in a podcast interview. Shall we talk about the hiding place? Now? We can, let's just say the title a lot. Let's just say the title, the Hiding Place,
Kate Mildenhall:and, and let's just say to everyone too, what I've already said to you before we started recording was, this is my very first interview about this book. So, um, as much as I've said all those things about like having your online pitch and everything down, I do not. So, you know, gonna ask everyone, watch and learn. Watch and learn as I. Stumbled my way through attempting to talk about my,
Madeleine Cleary:my new book. Well look, I'm glad that we caught you first off so it's not sort of on repeat.'cause all this you tend to get on repeat. So this will be nice and fresh. It's a good practice episode. Thank you. I think for it. Thank you. And I feel safe with
Kate Mildenhall:you.
Madeleine Cleary:You good? I'm glad you feel very safe. Um, I absolutely love this book. I read it last week while I was in Noosa. It is going, it is, it's gonna take Australia by Storm's. A brilliant novel. Oh,
thank you.
Madeleine Cleary:Um, and my husband.'cause I was reading it next to my husband, like on the beach and by the pool and I kept like, you know when I think you know the sign of a good novel when you are like very audible in your response.
Yes.
Madeleine Cleary:Yeah.
I love it that you were making noises. That's great.
Madeleine Cleary:I was like, oh God. Oh no. Oh no. You're tearing my hair out. Like, really? Oh my gosh. Are they really gonna do that? Anyway, it was brilliant.
Great. That makes me incredibly happy. Thank you.
Madeleine Cleary:Do you have your one to two line pitch for us, Kate?
Kate Mildenhall:I don't, but I, I will attempt it. Uh, so the Hiding Place is, uh, a novel about a group of family and friends who buy a property together. Uh, and it is set over the three days, uh, that they visit the property for the first time, and on the very first night, someone ends up dead.
Mm-hmm.
Kate Mildenhall:So that's, that's what happens. That's a terrible pitch for it. It is. Um, it's somewhere between crime and satire. There's a little bit of. Domestic kind of realism in there. Mm. It's completely different to anything else I've written before. It's a thriller. I think it's a thriller Thrill's. A thriller thrill. It's page
Madeleine Cleary:turning. It's beautifully written. Thank
Kate Mildenhall:you.
Madeleine Cleary:There. I mean, it, it's literary, but it's, it's, it's got some really big hooks I think that keeps you absolutely gripped and in your seat. You just want to keep, get it through. I think I read it in 24 hours. Yes. And I'm not actually generally a fast reader, but I couldn't put this one down, so I'm so
Kate Mildenhall:glad. I'm so glad. And that is, I mean, at the start of the process, and I was just looking back on my journal and it hasn't really changed much. The initial kind of, um, premise of the novel hasn't changed. Heaps of other stuff changed in it, uh, including that I, I got the number of, uh, characters down from something like 35 altogether, including the kids to a much more reasonable, uh, number of, you know, just over 10. But, um. But that premise was there from the start, as was the idea that it was going to take place over three days. Yes. And that was a, a pushback, like a literal kind of boundary that I put on myself after Hummingbird, which is said over, you know, 250 years and was this huge kind of sprawling epic. Uh, and I was like, you know what I'm gonna do for this one? I'm gonna make it three days.
Madeleine Cleary:I, I love that. Yeah. Yeah. You have complete opposite because Hummingbird was so, so expansive. It was very, very expansive. And the hiding place is, it's, it's intimate. It's looking at the data. Yes. Yeah. It's
looking
Kate Mildenhall:at the data. It's
Madeleine Cleary:really, really cool. Um, I wanna talk about characters and the point, multiple points of view and all that, but firstly, um, I read this article that you wrote, I think for the monthly mm-hmm. About camping.
Kate Mildenhall:Yes.
Madeleine Cleary:Can you tell us a little bit about camping and what role it's played in your life?
Kate Mildenhall:Yeah. Okay. So, um, I mean, I think my mom and dad took me camping, you know, when I was three months old for the first time. There's pictures of me in the Mudder at the Murray River. Um, and camping has always been a massive part of my life. My parents were both teachers. Um, we would camp nearly every holiday, including winter some years. Um, and relatively basic campers. We'd go relatively remote. Um, I think mom and dad still kind of turn up their noses at places that have showers and running water. So, um, you know, we spend a lot of time, um. And go Kuna country in kind of East Gippsland and Far East Gippsland, off and on the coast. And by the time I was a teenager, um, we were camping also with kind of some other families and our friends that had always been part of what we did. Um, but then by the time we could all drive, there was probably a group of, of 20 of us who would camp together. Um, and as is the way with people, any of your listeners who are from Elham will know this, that people from Elham often end up, uh. Procreating and marrying sometimes people from Eltham, uh, procreating with and marrying people from Eltham. And so, um, now that group has expanded out to something like 50 with all of our kids, and we camp together and it's multi-generational. Um, you know, many of us have families there as well. Uh, it's an all-in brawl, so we have lots of different sites, but we eat together, we play cricket together. Um, and it's, it's a really huge part of, of our lives. Um, and in fact, one of the, one of the seeds, or the original seed for this book is the fact that, um, we as a group were burnt out from the place that we have always camped or camped for 30 years at Thorough River, um, in the big flex, um, in the big fires. 2020.
Mm-hmm.
Kate Mildenhall:And, um, and you know, like quite dramatically, you know, had 15 minutes to evacuate and a lot of us had to leave our gear in there, our trailer and the kids, that,
Madeleine Cleary:that would've been frightening bikes things. Yeah. I, we
Kate Mildenhall:all got out and we were very safe and we were very lucky in that way, and other people had it much worse. But, um, yeah, you know, the next week we had the, the kind of, the army sent us photos of the kids, melted bikes and our melted trailer. And so, um, and, and that campsite is only, it, it looks like it might reopen this year, but, you know, for a long time it was closed. So we had to find somewhere else to camp. And one of the things that's things that has happened in Australia, all around Australia is that, um, camping numbers are just going up and there's a whole lot of different reasons for that. But, um, it can be really hard to find a camping place over, over summer. So that was quite tricky for us. So when, um, we talked as a group at different times about, you know, a. Buying a bush property together. So we didn't have to go in the ballot every year to find somewhere. And you know, that had always been the dream. And then one day down at my local real estate agent, I saw a sign saying, buy a whole town. And it was this beautiful property, uh, on the Thompson River near Rosson and, um, in kind of in the mountains, uh, just outta Melbourne. And I put it straight into the camping WhatsApp chat and said, why don't we just buy town?
Wait, did you?
Kate Mildenhall:No, we did not. Uh, and that is part of, I was like, wait,
Madeleine Cleary:is this like a memoir?
Kate Mildenhall:No, it's not a memoir. And part of the premise for the book came about because it started a lot of interesting questions about, um. The nature and complications and pressures of owning property together. And for a bunch of different reasons, you know, very wise ones, we didn't buy this particular property. I went and visited it, you know, went around it with my kids. We went full driving over it, uh, with, with the current caretaker. Um, but the seed that it planted in me was, this is a great premise though for a novel because those early conversations I had with my very dearest friends who I've been friends with for, you know, decades, I was like, huh, I can see how this could go pear shaped, uh, not pear shaped in the way that it goes. Might I say no in the novel Madeleine. But, um, but that idea of, of friends and family, of money, of, um, ownership, uh, of what we believe about the ethics of property ownership as well. Um, they were all questions that I started thinking about.
Madeleine Cleary:Oh, there's so much I wanna talk about. Um, so when I was reading it, it made me really reflect, I suppose, on my friendship group, which is probably what you're wanting and intending to do. Please. Because we, and I think travel changes so much as you go on with your friends. Like in my twenties we did a lot of travel with a big group from Canberra when we were living in Canberra. Yeah. Um, a lot more drinking, partying. Yeah. Big house by the beach. Like that was the sort of really good fun times. Yeah. But now we're all in our thirties. It's a lot more complicated. We all live interstate. A lot of us now have kids and things do get bigger. So when you were talking about like the size of it, the coordination, the logistics. So for me, I really sympathize with Lou as the group organizer'cause I am the lou of my group. Uhhuh. I love
Kate Mildenhall:this. I feel like people should be able to get little badges. Like I am Lou, I suppose no one will wear one that says I am Phil. But you know, maybe that they can, maybe they can.
Madeleine Cleary:Are you, are you
Kate Mildenhall:the Luke of your 50 odd. Uh, no, it really gets shared around and no, I'm, I'm not a classic. Um, I'm not a classic Lou. Um, there, there's everyone has very distinct roles. Mm-hmm. Um, and we're also pretty good at sharing them, at sharing them out. And, and I've gotta say too, that, um, it was abundantly clear to me early on that if I was gonna write a book about a great big group of friends who have known each other for a long time and go camping together, that I was going to have to, um, radically work on characterization that was not based on any of my friends. Um, yes. So
Madeleine Cleary:I gonna ask, is it,
is it into, what, what's been the reaction of your friends? Yeah. Well, I mean, not all of them have read it yet.
Kate Mildenhall:Mad, uh, I did do a sense check through, uh. By a few key people, uh, including two of my best friends. And, and they assured me that everything was okay. Though they both did say it, it went pretty close to the bone. And I think that that's because, um, as you are talking about with your own friendship group, um, there are lots of common dynamics that happen in friendship groups. Um, and they are about, you know, certainly at the age that me and my friends are at, are at now too, there's complexities around, um, around parenting. There's complexities, uh, for people who have grown up with each other for a really long time, who have made different choices about work and about property and about the way they live their lives, which means that money can be really different, um, for people and can have really profound effects for people by the time that they're in their mid forties. Um. You know, there's, there's so much that happens, um, particularly with that idea, I think of, of old friends. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I think that some of the characters say, say something about this in the book that, um, you know, there's something about old friends where you're also still kind of expected to be your 18-year-old self Yes. Or your 16-year-old self, or your 25-year-old self. Um, and to have both those strengths, but also, um, those weaknesses if we wanna call them that. Um, and so there's not a lot of remaking yourself that you might get to do mm-hmm. With old friends that potentially one gets to do with newer friends. Uh, and, and I think that is. Really kind of interesting an an interesting place to play with, with characters and how they might react to different situations as well.
Madeleine Cleary:And that's that intimacy I think that your book really brings you really showing those connections and you do it with such a large cast of characters. How, how did you, how did you keep up? How did you manage to work through who's who? Well, I
Kate Mildenhall:gotta say, you know, like I cut a lot out because it, it became abundantly clear that I could not have the cast of characters that I imagined, which is really hard for me because in my mind when a group camping trip does involve somewhere around a 30 to 50 people. Um, but of course, like with many things on the page that's very difficult, uh, to deliver on. So, um. So in terms of the, in terms of then working out who got to stay, uh, it was really important to me that there was, um, this idea of multi-generations. Uh, so there is one child with a, with a point of view. Stella? Yeah. Stella. Um, and there's an older character, um, Avril, who's the, the matriarch or the mother of, of two of the characters. Um, and she doesn't have a point of view, but she is, uh, it was really important for her to, to be in there as well. Um, I wanted to have a, a sense of, I always had a really clear sense of Bill, who is, um, you know, one of the dads,
he's smug, he's smug, he's
Kate Mildenhall:smug, he's smug. Uh, he, you know, he is a basketball dad.
Madeleine Cleary:What I love about Phil is like there's so much chaos going around him and all he cares about is these his bloody lamp.
Kate Mildenhall:He just wants to get the lamp spit on. He's thought about it a lot. He's got a new spit, he's bought the new contraption. He's really thought about it a lot. He's watched a lot of YouTube videos and he's going deliver on this bloody spit. Um, he was so much fun to write.
Madeleine Cleary:Oh, I, I imagine.
Kate Mildenhall:Yeah. Um, but you know, like with, with all things, um, multi POV is hard to do. Stop. Multi POV is also really hard to do when you've got a lot of action that you've gotta get through. Um, and, and one of the things that I had to really work on, in, in drafting and in editing was trying to get the language right. They're all, um, kind of close third person POVs. And I was trying to get, uh, the language distinct enough between those characters. They're close, they've known each other for a long time. They do things like, uh, have the same phrasing around. Um, you know, they'll call each other love or babe. Uh, and, and at times. I had to really work out, okay, well, I've gotta have one character who says love, and one character who says doll or something else, just to give it that differentiation, even though in real life often what we do is kind of mimic our closest friends as well. Um, yeah, so getting the, getting the POV was important. Um, I wanted to have sisters as, as part of that.
Mm-hmm.
Kate Mildenhall:Um, and, and a best friend as well. So it was just kind of, yeah. Experimentation and, and, you know, killing a lot of darlings.
Madeleine Cleary:Well, you said you cut a lot, so what, how much
did
Kate Mildenhall:you cut? Um, I cut, I originally had something like 12 adults. Um, I didn't have them all with a POV, um, but they did, uh, really muddy up the waters a bit. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And the way that I, I wrote this book much more quickly. Then I have previous books, and again, that was a decision that I made, uh, along with the constraint around, um, the time, uh, the three day kind of timeframe of the book. And to be frank, um, and I'm gonna be frank with you though, I'm not sure if I'll mention this in other interviews. It was a financial decision, uh, in that I knew that, um, you know, there was a, there was a period of time where I was a sole income earner for, for our family in the last couple of years. And I knew that, uh, the only way to make my advance work was to write the book quicker mm-hmm. Um, for it to keep us afloat. So, you know, that was a, a decision that I made to write quickly, but also, um, I really lent into it as part of the creative process. Uh, so I wrote fast, but I also deleted fast. And, um, I kind of had a sense of the plot. I knew where I wanted to end up. Um. The way that it got there. Um, who dies, uh, how they die, um, who may or may not be responsible. All of those things changed multiple times over the drafting. Yeah.'cause
Madeleine Cleary:often, like crime thrillers are heavily plotted and Yeah. Enhancing it is, is not generally
Kate Mildenhall:recommended. No. But let's remember, I am not a crime thriller writer, and this is what I love so much though about it. And I spent so long, um, you know, talking to other crime writers, bailing them up, really, let's be frank about it. Bailing them up in green rooms and at writer's festivals and saying like, okay, Chris Hammer, how do you do it? Okay, Hailey Scribner. Like, what is your key kind of thing that you do? What did they say? Can you give us, well, they all had completely different responses. That's annoying. They did. I mean, Haley's one of Haley's, um, great pieces of advice to me because I, I was kind of held back for a long time by the fact that, um, I. It was really ethically problematic for me to kill someone. And like I say that I sound like a golden child. I'm not at all like, I can, I can do horrible things in fiction, but I was, I think because I was writing these characters as people like me, you know, these kind of average middle class kind of people, um, who think that they're good people. I was like, well, how am I gonna get a dead body in here and have someone responsible for it? Because these are people who aren't necessarily going around thinking about killing people. And, and what Haley did, which was really good, was she was like, oh my God, just kill anyone. Like, don't stress about it. Crime writers don't stress about who they kill for God's sake, Kate. Um, so that was good. And, and, and you know, you, earlier you talked about playfulness, and one of the things that I had to do was to have this element of kind of theater and playfulness and, um, you know, satire and having things a little bit over the top. So that I could get through those kinds of, um, yeah. Bigger moments that poten potentially I hadn't kind of played with or written before in contemporary realism. Um, it's different when you're doing it, I think, in Spec Vic and things like that because you're already building a whole world. Yes. Whereas this world is, is meant to be this world right here, uh, in the hiding place. So,
Madeleine Cleary:um, as you're talking, I'm now picturing the scene that you, which I will not reveal of this dead body. Yeah. And it is exactly what you've described. It is that, and it was one of those moments where I was like, oh, audible, audible. Um, I wanna talk about the good people and I'm just gonna read something here.'cause I thought this was, um, so interesting. Um, so this is from flicks perspective. One of the six or seven, it might've been seven, no, six. Six, no, I think it's six. Yeah. So what Flick had come to realize she wanted, what was feasible and desirable for her was in fact a little slice of nature to call her own. This place isn't a holiday house like the rich folk have in their tightly held parcels of city adjacent coastline. This is something else. This is hashtag regeneration. This is hashtag sustainable. This is hashtag back to nature. What I love about this is that it, it, it really, it sets them aside, I think, from who they do not wanna be, which is these rich people who have investment properties. Um mm-hmm. Instead, they're all about being eco-friendly and respect to nature, and they're giving kids the ability to run around in nature, which also is really lovely as well. Do you wanna talk a little bit about some of that land ownership aspect that you were
Kate Mildenhall:Yeah. I love that you chose that bit. It's so interesting because I haven't heard people read from it before. Um, but I think what struck me immediately too is, um, isn't that what we all want to think, right? We're not like other people. Mm. We do it, we're doing it a little bit differently. Um, we're, we're going with our moral values and our ethics. Um, we're not like those people for a, for a time. Um, I was gonna call it those people. Um, and, and I think, you know, that's one of the things that I wanted to examine and, and the stuff about land ownership too. I mean, you know, on, on so many, on so many levels. Um, land ownership is. Deeply problematic, particularly in this country. Um, you know, we're a settler colonial, uh mm-hmm. Group of people. Um, so the idea of, of land ownership and who, uh, lo owns land is inherently problematic anyway. Uh, and then there's this idea that Australians seem to hold so dearly as well about the little, the little patch that is yours, whether it is a backyard or a holiday house. Um, I mean, just the fact that if you're listening to, you know, kind of legal talk back on the radio, that every second, uh, caller is talking about a fence dispute. Like we, we will quibble over 10 centimeters. You know, you No, you, that's where your fence No, that is. Um, so there's something that, uh, people find, um. It gives them such a sense of self about the land that they own, and yet that whole kind of idea could just go up and smoke. Um, so I really wanted to, I really wanted to write about land ownership. I really wanted to have the idea in there of also people having different kind of financial stakes in it. So does that mean that you, you are more an owner if you have more of a stake or if you do more work? You know, there's this idea of sweat equity that they talk about in the book too. Well, I'm doing a lot of work for the property. So what does that mean? Um, I just think it's such a, yeah. A rich kind of area to think about and to talk about. I, I listened for a long time too to, um, an extraordinary book called The Book of Trespass. Um, I think it's by Nick Hayes. He's, uh, an English writer, which talks about, um, the kind of the right to wander in the UK and about. Reaching fences and going over fences and, um, law of the, the law of the commons and things like that. So these are all ideas that I've thought about a lot. Um, but in the end, coming down to the fact of where a fence is on a property, um. Whether you're squatting on common land or on someone's land, these were the practical ways in which I could kind of bring that to life.
Madeleine Cleary:Mm, no, it's so interesting. And I think, um, you, you, you use very subtle irony as well, because on one hand they're really championing, um, you know, acknowledgement of country and first nations rights to land ownership. And then the same time there's this group of campus who are squatting on their, on their land, um, who have more connections to the land than, than any of them have, and they're trying to move them on. Um, and you do that as well with the environmental, um, side of things as well, which I think is really interesting. There's a lot of grotesque things that you have about the land, but there's also a lot of beauty and serenity. And then one of the characters is also, um, you know, I won't, no spoilers, but it definitely goes into things like climate change and how we, what, what footprint we leave behind. Do you wanna talk a little bit about the environment?
Kate Mildenhall:Yeah. Um, so, so I guess one of the things too is that sense of hypocrisy. Hypocrisy was another, um, potential title for the book and the fact that, um, you know, they're often so convenient, our ethical and our ethics and our, and our morals. Um, I guess, you know, um, in The Mother Fault, in Hummingbird Effect, uh, and in this one too. Um, I feel like there's a, you know, I, I guess I, I feel a kind of moral compulsion to write, um, about. The, the climate catastrophe in different ways. And in this one I wanted to kind of lean into, um, the idea of invasive species a little bit, um, but also that kind of, um, connection to or, uh, removal from the, the land. Also, you know, just in really little bits, there's, um, I got really obsessed with this idea of res nagging rivers and my mom and dad, you know, I grew up out on the Yarra River and mom and dad still lived there. And, um, they told me about this idea that in the Murray in particular, you know, you're putting back in a lot of the, the big old trees to snag it up because they're, um, great habitats for fish, et cetera. Mm-hmm. Um, but of course, you know, one of the characters in the book Flick also wants to, you know, like tidy the waterhole and make it safe and, you know, make it kind of more aesthetically pleasing. So she's pulling everything out while Joe's telling her to put it back in because it's good habitat and. You know, I, I, I think that's, that's what life is. You know, on the one hand, some of us are, you know, chucking solar on our roof, and then at the same time, you know, we've got our kids buying plastic shit on sheen. And, you know, you can't, there is no, I, I think what my position is is like there's no way that you can be fully, ethically good, right? Mm-hmm. And, and I think even coming to that realization, for me, it's taken a long time, but, um, but I think coming to that and holding that kind of, um, I guess that sense of hypocrisy and that, that sense of it, um, yeah, not, not also not feeling this kind of, um, that you ever have the moral high ground because so often you do not,
Madeleine Cleary:because good people can make bad decisions, can't they?
Kate Mildenhall:People make very bad decisions.
Madeleine Cleary:So you've written historical fiction spec, thick children's picture book, a cross genre blend. I would say a thriller crime. What's next? Kate? Romance. Obviously
Kate Mildenhall:Madeleine, um, romantic, either romantic? No, I don't think I, I don't think I have the skill to pull off from a romantic. Um, but it is interesting. I, I've got an idea for, for the new book, um, and there is an element of, of leaning into some romance tropes in it. And, um, you know, what's really important to me is I don't think like crime writers, historical fiction writers, romance writers, they are so good at nailing their, their genre. Um, and I think that for me, and so, so, you know, I hope no one feels like I'm, I'm stepping in territory or I'm like getting outta my lane. But one of the things for me that really works for my creative process is to go. Okay. Like, well, how does that kind of storytelling work? And if I mash that with this kind of storytelling, like how does that work? And I just, I, yeah, I, I find a lot of energy, um, from those kinds of experiments. Um, and they really fuel my, my writing. So, um, yeah, I, my poor publishers, they, they don't know where to shelve me. The booksellers, I'm sorry, booksellers. Um, hopefully this one is easier to shelve, uh, for you all.
Madeleine Cleary:No, keep, keep swimming outside all the lanes, Kate, just keep going all around. We'll, just, everyone else can just keep following it, but we'll move around you. We'll embrace you. I love it. Kate, thank you. Um, talking, I was talking with Natasha Lester actually about dreams and having big dreams because she actually charted me. She chastised me when I sort of said, I'm setting my expectations low. You know, it's better to prepare yourself and you know, Kate, be realistic. And she said, why not dream big? So what, what, what are your big dreams then, Kate, for the next
Kate Mildenhall:few years? Well, I think one of my big dreams is that I wanna write 10 novels, or maybe more than that if I, if I'm lucky enough to have that much time. And, um, I probably foolishly only realized that a few years ago, and I think it was one of those times when I was, I was looking through someone's book and I, and it was the first time that I'd encountered them, and I think it was, um, Louise Ick actually. And I was looking through and I was like, oh my gosh, you know, she's written seven novels already and, and I wonder how many more she's gonna write. And I realized like, this is what I wanna do. Right? I, there's so many, um, stories. I wanna write so many experiments that I wanna do, like, um, and to do that, uh, especially when you start thinking about what we know about publishing lead times and about how long it takes to write a book and then how long it takes to publicize it, you're suddenly like, okay, that's a finite amount of time. That, that I have left. Um, so I guess for me, you know, being able to build a career within the industry, um, and including getting to talk to other writers and, and doing that part and doing mentoring and teaching as well, that means that it is sustainable for me to keep writing, um, is like the biggest dream of all. Um, on top of that. Obviously, my first dream when I left school was to be a film director and to walk the red carpet at the Oscars. So we'll put that in as a secondary dream that, you know, that one day I, I want to be walking along a red carpet with someone who has turned one of my books into something amazing and I will feel pretty smug. Then
Madeleine Cleary:I could see the hiding place as being a great movie. Did you just set me up there to say that?
Kate Mildenhall:No. Well
Madeleine Cleary:just keep saying The hiding place. The hiding place. Yes, do Please do. Please do. Please. This would be an amazing movie. Um, so we always finish on one last question. We always ask our guests their final top tip for writers. So Kate Den Hall, can you give us your top tip?
Kate Mildenhall:Okay. I'm looking over at my, um, post-it notes that are on my window, which I keep above me to keep me going. And one of them says, forge ahead. With an exclamation mark. Mm-hmm. And, and I would say that that's just a variation on keep going. And I think what, what writers often forget is, um, that in the end, the work, the work is just getting the words down and doing the next thing to the words if it's in drafting, um, just to, to keep going. And, and that includes sometimes to keep writing through a failure, uh, to learn from that and to do the next one as well. And, and so I would say that at whatever stage people are at, in, in a particular project or in their writing career, um, keep going forward, ahead. You've got this.
Madeleine Cleary:Ooh, I love that. And I think I'm gonna add to that, put up a, some post-it notes in your office as
Kate Mildenhall:well. Put up post-it notes. And what I do is I generally, um, switch them over because I can see one of them says weather. And that's because I knew that I had to go back and do an edit, uh, where I had to really make sure, make sure that I had the weather correct in, in the hiding place. So, um, I do take them down, uh, eventually at the end of a, a project and then set up a new set. Um, but yeah, the Post-it notes, motivational post-it notes like you can't go wrong.
Madeleine Cleary:No, exactly. So good. Well, Kate, you, this has been an amazing episode. I'm, I think writers are just gonna absolutely love this. Um, the Hiding Place. The Hiding Place. The Hiding Place. The Hiding Place, hiding Place. It'll be out when this episode drops, so it'll be available in all good bookstores. And I very much highly recommend everyone grabs a copy. And it'll be Christmas time as well. So grab a few copies, do grab them for
Kate Mildenhall:everyone, um, especially the people who you might want to, you know, go into a communal living situation.
Oh,
Madeleine Cleary:or maybe not.
Kate Mildenhall:Madeleine, thank you so much for having me. That was a real treat and like I said at the start, um, you know, I get a bit nervous being on the other side, so, um, you looked after me so well and I really appreciate it.
Madeleine Cleary:Aw, well thank you Kate for joining us. We are so happy to have you on here. Thank you.
Kate Mildenhall:Thank you.
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