The Book Deal

Natasha, Tina and Madeleine on festival preparation, public speaking tips and embarrassing mothers

• Tina Strachan, Madeleine Cleary & Natasha Rai • Season 1 • Episode 59

Share episode

The Book Deal podcast, hosts Tina Strachan, Madeleine Cleary, and Natasha Rai dive deep into the intricacies of securing book deals, managing writing schedules, and preparing for festivals. The conversation includes insights from experienced authors on pitching to festivals, the balance of self-care, and practical advice to handle writing burnout. They also share humorous and touching personal stories about family support and navigating audience interactions. Special announcements include a live event in Sydney featuring bestselling author Hayley Scrivenor and an exciting book giveaway. Tune in for valuable writing tips, festival prep advice, and much more.

Book tickets for Christmas with The Book Deal live episode November 25 2025 at Writing NSW here.


00:00 Welcome to the Book Deal Podcast
00:56 Special Christmas Episode Announcement
02:25 Technical Difficulties and Catching Up
02:41 The Importance of Self-Care for Writers
07:37 Upcoming Writing Festival and Tips
09:31 Navigating Festival Invitations and Pitches
19:05 Preparing for Festivals and Public Speaking
25:08 Handling Unexpected Questions
26:51 Coping with Stage Fright
28:51 Funny Mum Stories
35:08 Daily Routines and Time Management
45:26 Final Tips and Wrap-Up

Join our Patreon community for less than the cost of a coffee per month and support the pod! Your contribution will go to directly paying our sound producer, Brogan, and to help us bring you the conversations with industry professionals you love.

Follow The Book Deal podcast on Instagram The Book Deal podcast (@the_book_deal_podcast) • Instagram photos and videos

You can find out more about Tina, Madeleine and Natasha and follow their journeys here:

Tina Strachan (@td_strachan) • Instagram photos and videos
Tina Strachan children's book author
Madeleine Cleary (@madeleineclearywrites) • Instagram photos and videos
Madeleine Cleary | Author
Natasha Rai (@raiwriting) • Instagram photos and videos
Natasha Rai | Author | Mentor

If you want to stay in the know, sign up to Madeleine, Tina and Natasha's newsletters for the latest news first.
Madeleine: Subscribe here...

Madeleine Cleary:

This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books.

Natasha Rai:

We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal.

Tina Strachan:

So no matter what's. Stage of writing your at. We've got you covered. I'm Tina Strachan.

Madeleine Cleary:

I'm Madeleine Cleary.

Natasha Rai:

And I'm Natasha Rai.

Tina Strachan:

And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors

Madeleine Cleary:

one deal at a time. The book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners, the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.

Speaker:

So everyone with that exciting intro, Tina, Madeline and I, Natasha are gonna be together in person to record a very special Christmas episode of the book deal. Um, we are going to be together in Sydney on the 25th of November at 6:00 PM. We're so excited 'cause um, Hayley Scrivenor bestselling Australian author is gonna be with us on stage. Um, and she's gonna be our resident agony aunt for the episode. Um, and we have a way for you to submit anonymous questions. So if you go to our show notes or our Instagram file, you'll be able to submit anything you wanna ask on stage. No question is too outlandish, so go for it. And not only that, if that's not as exciting enough, we have a huge signed debut book Bonanza to give away to somebody in the audience. There will be 20 books by debut authors all signed, and they could all be yours if you come along on the. So to get tickets, um, visit our Instagram page. Check out the link in the show notes, um, or through the writing New South Wales website. Hope to see you there.

Natasha Rai:

Hello?

Madeleine Cleary:

Hi.

Natasha Rai:

Hello.

Madeleine Cleary:

Hi there, Tash.

Natasha Rai:

Hello. We're just laughing because we had to start that again. Um, my

Madeleine Cleary:

microphone wasn't plugged in,

Natasha Rai:

so

Madeleine Cleary:

my apologies, but we only did two minutes,

Natasha Rai:

so. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. I'll

Madeleine Cleary:

start.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah, so what we were talking about is, um, how we started was about being tired and being, having a lot on our plates. And right now that's changed a little bit for you. Its. Yeah,

Madeleine Cleary:

yeah, yeah. It's, it's interesting 'cause um, I went through a pretty low period, I think September, October. Like I was pretty exhausted. I think it was coinciding with trying to finish book two manuscript. Um, really busy in my personal life. And then also lots of events and, um, I had my last. Like event in Ballarat a few weeks ago and then we took the weekend off in Ballarat. Um, I've been getting back into my reading, we've had two weekends in a row now of just pottering. I submitted my manuscript, um, and I was saying earlier that I'm the type of person that normally would just jump immediately into my next project writing project, but this time I've deliberately just stopped and just picked up reading again and. And like, you know, this afternoon I had a nap and it was really lovely and Tina's looking at me like, oh,

Tina Strachan:

I feel like if you can have a nap. Like yes, that's the epitome of like a relaxing day. Of course. Or like just that you've had a relax. Yeah. If you can fit that in.

Madeleine Cleary:

And I think because the weather's been so like, well we actually, last weekend we had a really nice weekend and I could just pot around in the garden this weekend. It's been raining constantly in Melbourne and cold. Like yesterday I just sat by the fire with book and it was the dur dreamiest day ever. Like I was so relaxed and, and I feel better, like I feel a hundred percent for it. So yeah, I don't know. I don't know if there's a top tip in that.

Natasha Rai:

Well, I mean, I'm curious about what supported you to try that something new. Know you said the old, you would've jumped into a project. So what was different this time?

Madeleine Cleary:

I took your advice, Tash. Um, so someone said that was not a

Natasha Rai:

leading question, by the way.

Madeleine Cleary:

I genuinely didn't

Natasha Rai:

know.

Madeleine Cleary:

I think everyone should just listen to whatever Natasha Rice says. Mm-hmm. That's like my philosophy in life. That's our top tip. That's my top tip. Well, someone said to me last weekend I was out, um, for dinner with some friends and um, we were talking about self-care and my friend, she said, because my friend, she's really good at Selfcare. And I said that, and she said, the way she's perceives self-care is she remote romanticizes her life. So, so she's, so, even if it's as simple as like getting into a fresh pair of pajamas after a long hot shower and, um, you know, getting into a comfy bed and with a book like that sounds, it's romanticizing your, you know, the way you live. And so I took that to heart. And then I remember Tash, you always say like, after you. Had a really busy festival. I think it was, um, it wasn't Blue Mountains, it was cow to Canberra. You said you just wanted to spend the day in bed reading your book and just recovering from that. And I was like, oh, that's a, that's, that's good. That's self-awareness when you need that time. And so I've taken that on and thought, okay, sitting by the fire, today is a good day to just read and relax. So I've, I've, I've taken on your, I think, example Tash.

Natasha Rai:

I like that. I

Tina Strachan:

love that. And I love the pottering. Madeline, I have to agree with you. I don't potter much and not enough, but when I do get the chance to potter for whatever reason, if I've found like a, I dunno, spare hour or something, I dunno. There's something about it. Even if you're cleaning the house,

Madeleine Cleary:

yes.

Tina Strachan:

It just, there's just something about it. It's the act of the pottering, of the cleaning, of the getting the stuff done or starting something. I think that just is. Well, for me anyway, it helps to clear my mind and it almost feels a little bit indulgent in a way to have time to potter like, like your friend was saying, like being in bed and romanticizing it. It's about kind of being a little bit indulgent, Hey, rewarding yourself.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah, I

Tina Strachan:

love that.

Natasha Rai:

Um, and, but you are in a very different place today, aren't you, Tina? Having said

Tina Strachan:

all that, there's, there's no tering or there's at the moment, it depends on what your idea of romance is. If it's being like completely hectic and running at a million miles an hour, that's where I'm, but that's a little, yeah. You know, that's life. Hey, there's lots of stuff going on. It's such a busy time of year.

Natasha Rai:

Mm-hmm.

Tina Strachan:

Just, you know, social things and things being booked into the calendar and sporting events, and I've got kids, you know, so there's like a billion kids things going on and, um, of course work, you know, with everyone's work. It, it all just kind of culminates at the end of the year. And, um, when it comes to writing, like I, I've have some, some. Imposed and some self-imposed, um, deadlines at the moment. Um, but I, yeah, I do get into a little bit of a hyper focus state. Yeah.

Natasha Rai:

And you've also got a writing festival coming up, don't you?

Tina Strachan:

I have a writing festival coming up, yes. In a couple of weeks. It's called, um, the Future Writers Festival. Um, it's run by, um, the Byron Bay Writers Festival crew. Um, it's the first one that they've done and it's for school kids in the area. So it's all school aged children and, um, yeah, that's gonna be really fun to go and talk to them about. Um, so my presentation's going to be very much, you know, if you. You can't be what you can't see. And you know, they're young kids and they, the importance is showing them how you can become a writer and you can become successful at whatever you really enjoy doing. Um, so I'm very much going to talk about. And show them. I've got all these like letters and all my stories that I used to write when I was younger. And, um, just show them all them and show them, you know, it's the feedback that I got from my teachers and stuff like that. And, um, yeah, and now look at me. Now I'm a publish author, but you know, as, as an 8-year-old I was writing at home and you know, you can, if you dream it and believe it, then you can be it. Is the moral of the story.

Natasha Rai:

I love that. That is so cool.

Tina Strachan:

Yeah. Yeah. So that'll be cool. So, um, yeah, so that's going to be my first. Uh, festival as like a speaking author, which is very exciting. Yeah, very exciting. So I am keen to, um, pick your brains on some tips and advice because you both have been doing lots of festivals. Tash, literally you were at one last weekend.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah, you've been busy,

Tina Strachan:

busy,

Natasha Rai:

isn't it? I've been very fortunate 'cause it's not usual, um, for a debut author to be invited to so many festivals. So I have definitely been very fortunate to have had so many. Yeah, I'm very, very happy, very happy.

Madeleine Cleary:

Can I ask then Tash? Because I mean, I've heard, um, and it is very common for particularly day brew riders not to be invited because, you know, like, I guess we're kind of untested and untried. Mm-hmm. Do you, did you pitch yourself to these festivals? Like how did you get these invites?

Natasha Rai:

Um, some of it was, I pitched some of it, um, my publisher pitched and some of it was wonderful, wonderful industry citizens, um, which was Kate Melbourne Hall's, um, term for it. Um, who basically connected me up with like a festival director or a festival programmer. Um, but, you know, and I, and initially I was really scared, like, you know, this idea of you shouldn't pitch yourself if your publisher's pitching you 'cause. You know, that's all. Don't worry about that. If you wanna pitch yourself to a festival, just do it and who cares? The worst that's gonna happen is they're gonna see your name twice.

Tina Strachan:

Mm-hmm.

Natasha Rai:

Big deal. That's not gonna be enough reason for them to go. Absolutely not. That's what I've learned this year from that, and also another. I mean, I'm just gonna chuck in some tips here about festivals. Yes, please. Anyone is interested. Um, it's also if you, if you can, if you have the confidence or you feel like you wanna try and you think you might be good at it, um, moderating, like pitching yourself to moderate or to host a panel. And if you're too nervous to just pitch yourself as a moderator, just generally. You can even pitch yourself and somebody else, I think, ma, you did that a few for a few of your events. You pitched you and said, because I know you did a couple with Marian Taft, didn't you? Oh yes. I

Madeleine Cleary:

did a library event

Natasha Rai:

with Marion. Yes. But you can do that for festivals too. You can say that, you know, here's a theme or here's something I can do with another, this other author, and do it that way. If you feel too nervous to be like a solo, I can moderate anyone, so to speak. Yeah.

Madeleine Cleary:

I haven't pitched myself for any festivals yet, so this is good. I didn't know you could do it.

Natasha Rai:

Oh, yeah. I mean, obviously like, not obviously, but the really big ones like Sydney, Melbourne, you can't,

Madeleine Cleary:

yeah.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah. And, and if you look at the smaller, like the mid ones, it'll be very clear on their, um, websites, whether they accept pictures from authors. If they do, just pitch yourself.

Tina Strachan:

Hmm. So are you saying Tasha, when you do pitch yourself, so firstly you're saying 'cause your publisher with your publicist, um, normally they, um. Put you forward for a festival, especially these bigger ones, they have particular times when they have meetings with them to discuss.

Natasha Rai:

But on that, Tina, there's a very specific way publishers pitch to festivals.

Tina Strachan:

Mm-hmm.

Natasha Rai:

So what they tend to do is they tend to have their headlining writers upfront, and they will have full bios and full everything, and they'll be really showcased. And then they have. The others, so they'll have like a few pages of just like a headshot and a bit of bio and the book.

Tina Strachan:

Mm-hmm.

Natasha Rai:

If you are one of the authors that gets onto that list, you may get the other

Tina Strachan:

list.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah. Well, I mean, you may get picked up if a festival director is really diligent as going through all of them or knows your book in advance, but chances are, if you're not part of the main pitch, you're probably not going to get picked up.

Tina Strachan:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, they have a lot of authors, right? Yes, exactly. So there's, there's a lot. They can't, they just can't book everyone.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah.

Tina Strachan:

But, um. So you were saying, 'cause sometimes you don't know what, what your publisher's going to do, and obviously you can always ask, but um, you can just go ahead and pick yourself, like you were saying, if there's a chance and not worrying if there's that double up.

Natasha Rai:

No. And do you make it as easy for them as possible? So you obviously. Tell them things like what you can talk about. Um, if you are somebody who wants to teach workshops, that's always a really good thing to add into because mm-hmm. A lot of festivals have workshops attached to them.

Tina Strachan:

Mm-hmm.

Natasha Rai:

Mm-hmm. As a, as a bonus, so.

Tina Strachan:

Mm-hmm.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah. And then you can, yeah, so you pitch, you pitch what you can talk about what you're comfortable talking about, you pitch, you've got a workshop idea, and then if you're willing to moderate or chair, you can also put that in your pitch.

Tina Strachan:

Okay. Yep. So you specifically say, I also love moderating Yes. And things like that. Yes. Yes. And also hot tip for children's authors and probably adults as well, depending on your, it's your, about your audience, um Right. Including what you proposed themes and so workshops or talk, how that can align with curriculum and Oh, that's good one for the schools. Yeah. Because the schools are trying to, to actively align. You know, they don't wanna waste time on things. Not that it'd be wasted, but they wanna see how it fits in with what they're doing now. And you can do that. You can look, look up the curriculum easily online. Um, and it probably helps for all school talk pictures and even pitching to libraries. Just look at what your audience, age group, or if you have a workshop or. Particular presentation that you wanna do. If you've got a particular age that that's aimed at, have a look how that aligns with the curriculum. You can just Google, Google it and um, yeah, you can usually find enough information there to align it, which helps the teachers as well.

Natasha Rai:

That's a great idea. And quite a few festivals have a specific schools program as part of the festival, so that has good opportunity for, um, yeah.

Madeleine Cleary:

Think there. Do you think there's a lot of, um, jealousy around authors when they get festivals and when they and others feel like, oh yeah. Because I feel like that's a palpable emotion, isn't it, around festivals?

Natasha Rai:

Yeah. So I've had authors. Who shall remain unnamed? Um, who, you know, who, who tell me things like, oh, well, you know, I never get invited to anything.

Tina Strachan:

Mm. And there's also, well what's that attitude?

Natasha Rai:

Well, there's also a perception about what you write, which I don't know, like it's, I don't know if it's fair or not, because, you know, like if you write commercial or, I don't know. I don't know really what is, I'm not invited because the festivals I've been to, 'cause I love gonna festivals as a reader, so going as a writer has just been a wonderful thing, but. I've always loved going to festivals, and I personally haven't ever noticed a bias. I mean, there is a bias towards literary fiction. Yes, probably. Having said that, there's lots of festivals that I've seen around crime and histor. It's historical fiction. Yeah, it's,

Tina Strachan:

and they normally have a theme every year. Yes. And so they're trying to fit the theme and when you look at the program and what the handful of authors that they have up and they invite, it's really not a lot of spaces. It's like everything else, isn't

Madeleine Cleary:

it? Yeah. I also think it's also though, great that they can promote. Literary fiction. 'cause I think we all know that literary fiction tends to sell less in comparison to commercials. So it's great that we can get, you know, literary fiction writers out. Talking with readers, talking about their themes.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah. And the other thing that happens is festival directors go to each other's festivals. So if you get invited to one and you do a good job, like people, like, they tell each other that kind of stuff.

Madeleine Cleary:

So. So this happened to me actually because I was at,

Natasha Rai:

that's right, yes.

Madeleine Cleary:

Yeah. Literary festival. After the talk, someone came up to me and said, oh, I'm here from like another festival. Um, I wanna invite you to, um, ours in next year. Like, can I, you know, would you be interested? And I was like, oh, so that's interesting. Like that, that, that people, she's like, yeah, my job is to go around to all the festivals, attend them and scope out like people,

Speaker:

how

Tina Strachan:

do you get that job? That's cool.

Madeleine Cleary:

I think it's a volunteer job.

Tina Strachan:

Ah. I'd, I'd still do it for free.

Madeleine Cleary:

I know. How fun is that? Yeah, it's super, super cool and I think like I've done now, like I've done one really big one and several smaller ones, and I really love the smaller

Natasha Rai:

Me too

Madeleine Cleary:

festivals. They're cool and you're all together and, um, yeah, you get to know people. I think it's very personable, not, I'm not saying that the bigger festivals are not that. Like they're really amazing too. But yeah, about, it's just different.

Natasha Rai:

And I think as well, the smaller festivals, you just get more of the community showing up because it's all in one place or it's over like a short period of time. Like Sydney goes for like a whole week. Mm. I think Melbourne goes for a few days and. Brisbane. Um, so yeah, I really love that because then you actually get to talk to the readers and the people who come. Yes. I, I had the most amazing conversations last weekend because I went to a lot of other writers panels. 'cause that's my favorite thing to do. Like, I wanted to ditch my own to go to one because there was all these good ones all at one go. Um, and I just. It was having the most beautiful conversations with people in the audience around, you know, the themes and what they were thinking about and yeah, I just, I just love that, just such a lovely air of, I don't know, community and chatting and yeah,

Madeleine Cleary:

it's the community. I think that part, and we, this is the first time we've had a first. Who up in my area in the Dandenong Ranges. And there was one panel which, yeah, 'cause I was attending the other panels as well. And um, the moderator asked, oh, who's like local? And the room like fifth five, probably like three more than three quarters put up their hand. Said they're local to the, and so these are people who don't necessarily always have riders around them because. You know, we live kind of far out and you don't, you know, don't want to travel into the city and stuff. So this can be their first exposure to writers. And a lot of them are readers. They're not necessarily writers, but how wonderful for the community to come together. To listen to, you know, interesting themes and panels and discussions like it. I could see the ideas, you could feel the ideas buzzing around. Mm. Which is cool.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah. Yeah. So then Tina, like, what do you have to do to prepare and like how are you managing all 'cause

Tina Strachan:

for the festival coming out?

Natasha Rai:

Yeah. 'cause I know you're always busy and we've talked a little bit about time and how you do

Madeleine Cleary:

Yeah. And whether we prep for festivals. That's a

Natasha Rai:

good question.

Tina Strachan:

I think once you've done a few presentations though on the same similar themes, it it does get easier, right? Doesn't it? Um, I think there's a lot of work leading up to your first, when you're testing out a new workshop or a new, um, presentation or like a talk. Um, and then when you do it a couple of times you can, you know, what works and what doesn't work. Um, I think it probably constantly changes and for each one you sort of. Um, tweak it a bit for your audience. So I have done like a similar, um, it's kind of an extension. So what I'm gonna do is an extension of, um, a bit of. Presentation that I've done for school kids before, but just really focusing more on that, um, you know, writing as a, as a child and where you can get your ideas and your thoughts and, and, um, things from stories, um, when you are young. And, um, yeah, so there's still a bit of, there's still a little bit of prep there, um, especially in the lead up to it. And I mean, on the day. There's, there's lots of practical things. Practical ways of prepping, right? Um, just making sure you've got all your stuff. I've got my tub with all my different leads and cords and printouts. Someone, I can't remember who it was. I think it might've been Megan Daily from your kids' next read, she says to even print out hard copies of your slides. 'cause there are times sometimes when just for some reason there's no power at all and you have no, no. Um. Your screen or anything like that if you're relying on screen for your, for your presentation. So you're just gonna roll with it and just expect all the worst things. And I've just got, yeah, I've got my little box with everything in it. But then I think mentally prepping is a big thing as well. I mean, we were sort of, we've been talking about it the last few weeks as well. 'cause it's very hard at first of all, and that, um, you know, when there's a lot of socializing and, um, you know, you wanna be on your game for when you do have your talks and things. So it's a few things, like hard, not just. Talking, talking yourself out. So you've lost that. Your social battery's just completely done. Um, you know, staying out too late, maybe having a few too many drinks the night before. You wanna be you, you wanna be, you know, nice and key headed on the day. Hey. Um, yeah. And I just like to sort of, I like to run things through in my mind and almost completely. Like do the talk a hundred percent in my mind, and so that when I get there, I feel like I've already done it. That actually reminds me of a conversation. I always bring this one up with Jane Tara. She was the one who was saying something very similar, wasn't she? But she was talking about it as in like, um. She had, she had really bad stage fright or like, she wasn't very good on stage. She just was used to get super nervous about it. And so she used to literally just play it all out in her mind, like sit down. I think she'd sort of meditate around it even and play the whole thing out in her mind so that when she got there, she felt like she'd already done it and it was kind of done. Um, yeah, could. If there's another, another tip if, if you're nervous.

Madeleine Cleary:

Yeah. I was talking with um, Holly au actually another, um, podcast interviewee. Um, 'cause Holly interviewed me in Ballarat, um, a few weeks ago and we were talking about being anxious before events, um, and. Because Holly, I think she said on the podcast how she literally vomited, um, before her first ever podcast. You, because she was so nervous and, and Holly is a, is a former teacher. Yeah. I'm sure Holly won't mind me, you know, talking about her and instilling her story, but she's, you know, very confident person. But it doesn't matter what experience you have, it, it's still very much anxiety inducing, I think front fronting this and I think. That's something we kind of underestimate a bit for writers. Um, and I said to her now I'm like, oh, how do you feel now? Like, getting in front of an audience. And she's like, I don't get nervous at all. Not one bit. She's like, the nerves have completely gone. Oh

Tina Strachan:

wow. I said,

Madeleine Cleary:

what's the difference? And she said, just practice. That's all it is. It's just getting up there and practicing. So anything you can do, I suppose, in advance before the real thing comes.

Tina Strachan:

Mm-hmm.

Madeleine Cleary:

Uh, if, if you do mock interviews with your other writing friends and record it as well. Mm-hmm. Like have the recording going, I think. Mm-hmm. Like, don't just do it in, in a coffee shop, but get on practice like you would doing a podcast. Log onto Zoom, I think. Yeah, do 5, 6, 7, as many to make you feel comfortable. Mm-hmm. And not necessarily rehearsed.

Tina Strachan:

Mm-hmm.

Madeleine Cleary:

But, but just comfortable. Mm-hmm.

Tina Strachan:

Yeah, we used to do, I, I work, um, in a job that's quite technical and I have to present a lot of technical information sometimes and in front of some very high profile people, um, that sometimes like to just really ask all the. Tricky questions when, when you're, when you're up presenting in front of them, um, which is also live streamed for anyone who wants to watch it, to watch you sweating up there. Um, and we used to always go through a little process beforehand of just think, just like I'd be there, I'd do my presentation to my colleagues, and they would just throw the worst questions possible at me that I could possibly get when I was up there so that you just. Like, and it could be anything. Mm. Um, which there's a few things. One, it kind of prepares you and for what you might need to know, um, and also the worst of the worst that could possibly come at you. And yeah, just, just also helps you to realize that, you know, if you don't have all the answers all the time and it doesn't matter and nothing's really that bad, no one's really gonna ask for anything that horrifying. And it's, yeah.

Madeleine Cleary:

Have you have either of you been asked a question that's really thrown you?

Natasha Rai:

Yes.

Madeleine Cleary:

Or like what's the Yeah. Can you talk about it?

Natasha Rai:

Yeah. Um, somebody asked me about my mother.

Madeleine Cleary:

Oh.

Natasha Rai:

It was an audience question. And it really, and it was, I think my second festival, it really threw me. Um, and at the time I kind of fumbled around a bit and. My lovely chair of that panel got me out of it. 'cause she kind of intervened quite quickly. Um, but now I feel much more equipped because I realize that sometimes people, I think this comes back to when, like, if, if you follow someone on Instagram or you, you know, like if you, like, I know I, I'm guilty of this too. Like if you see someone a lot on, on social media or you've seen their book around, you might feel like you know them. And especially at a smaller festival, like there's a sense of community, there's a sense of, 'cause you come off the stage and it's not like some big concert where you're ripped off. Like you literally walk out and talk to people and you're mingling with them. So, and of course, you know, we, we aren't celebrities, we're just normal people who wrote books. Um, so there is a sense of that. Oh, I feel like I know you. Um, and I think it comes from that rather than, and it could come from something nasty, but I think that was more around feeling that she knew something or felt like she was close. And so I've just decided to take it as that and go with that. Um, yeah, that, that was, that was tricky.

Tina Strachan:

Yeah.

Madeleine Cleary:

Yeah. And I guess, I guess, you know, sometimes those questions get thrown at you. I guess that's the, you know. The lesson to take, to take away, and that you will get through it and it will. Yeah,

Natasha Rai:

and I think what helps me is, um, the idea that most people have come because as you said earlier, that people just love reading their readers and they wanna know more about the book and maybe the process behind it. And what helps me is leaning into all of that. So when I get up on stage, I do get a, there's adrenaline, right? So my hands are a bit shaky, my voice is a bit shaky. I don't pretend that that's not happening that 'cause that helps me. I'm not saying everyone should do that. It helps me to go, yeah. I, yeah. This is a weird situation. I'm in front of a bunch of people talking about something that's really personal and special to me, so of course I'm gonna be nervous. That's cool.

Tina Strachan:

Hmm.

Natasha Rai:

Um, and so, and then when once I get up there, what helps me is finding the ground, the floor underneath my feet as my little. Anchor and my spine against the chair. And then I find ideally someone I know in the audience and I go to them if I just to look at or if not them, there'll always be one or two people who are nodding and smiling. Um, finding them and going, keep going back to them for the eye contact and the little kind of connection that always helps me.

Tina Strachan:

Maybe have a hot tip for a really big audience though. Yeah.

Natasha Rai:

Oh yeah, yeah. Get

Tina Strachan:

nervous.

Natasha Rai:

Go on.

Tina Strachan:

Because I used to present, I worked in some very big zoos where we had thousands of people coming and um, I'd be this one little person with this little mic in my little zoo uniform and, um, very young and it was petrifying. But, um, I found that, you know, 'cause you're supposed to obviously address them and look out to them, but I would actually look through. Look through them. So I look like I'm looking at them, but I'm looking at the chair or I'm looking at the tree behind them or I'm looking at something else. But I'm still like, it probably looks like I'm making eye contact, but because that's gonna wick me out 'cause there's so many eyes looking at me, I just look, I just actually look. Through them. So yeah, I don't know if that's,

Natasha Rai:

that's another great tip actually. 'cause sometimes I find if I can see outside like a tree or nature, that helps me too, as a little anchor.

Madeleine Cleary:

I would recommend not having your mom in the audience, like, um, because I, the only times I've been thrown is when I look at my mom's face. And I've told mom, mom won't mind me sharing this, I'm sure. Um, she now, if she does come to my events, she sits the back and makes sure there's someone in between. Because I'm like, mom, every time I look at you, she has this expression on her face of like, quizzical confusion. Who is this woman up here? And I get thrown, totally thrown. Like one time, um, she came to one of my library events and, um, she mustn't have been listening or heard the question properly. Um, someone asked me, oh, were you a big reader when you were young? And I was like, oh, well I can ask my mom, mom, was I a big reader? And she just like stopped and paused and was like, oh, like she was like. Wondering whether I was or not, and I'm like, I've lost all credibility in this.

Natasha Rai:

Does she, does she know that she's doing the quizzical confusion though

Madeleine Cleary:

now? 'cause I told her, I was like, mark the face. She's like, I'm not pulling a face. She's like, no, I'm, I'm really interested in what you're saying. I'm like, well, you're not smiling at me or nodding, smiling and nodding. Be good. So now she has to sit at the back. Poor Julie.

Tina Strachan:

You've made Julie go to the back.

Madeleine Cleary:

Yeah.

Tina Strachan:

Okay. Well that's a hot tip I need to take on for myself with my mom, because Can I tell you a story Yes. About my mom? Uh, love her, but like this, this one event, um, oh, it was a lit it. I did some library events right. For kids over the school holidays. I really found really good groups. Um, we did lots of, um, you know, animal stuff, wildlife stuff, read the book, all that sort of thing. Anyway, but I had about three, I think I had three in a day. And, um, I don't know why I also thought that it would be good and okay if I took my two children, plus my niece and niece and nephew with me. Like what? Like I just fell. Anyway, they were really good, but my mom. She, in this one particular one, she had just decided that she'd pop off down the cafe and just get herself some food. And so she came back and I had like a board behind me that I had like stuck some stuff on so I could, I was showing the kids, and the kids were coming up and doing things. But to start off and like things were a bit quiet, you know, just start off and we're just having a chat and she's behind the board, like with her brown paper bag with her like che or something in it, like crinkle, crinkle, crinkle. And like you can see her feet and I think she thought she was like completely hidden, but her feet are like poking out under the board and all you can hear is like there's crinkle, crinkle, C crinkle as she eats a kish, which was extremely. Distracting and I couldn't like, make eyes at her or anything. I could just see her feet under the thing. Um, yeah, that was fun. That was also the same one where my son almost like jumped over this cushion and into a chair and like they had a massive, almost knocked himself out. It was really fun. It was really fun. Anyway.

Madeleine Cleary:

That is the best store. I just love the feet and t's try t's trying to like contain herself. Like she's losing it.

Tina Strachan:

She just, I think she just thought she was in this little, you know, cafe bit behind me just was like, anyway,

Madeleine Cleary:

I just love that in her corner. Kidding.

Natasha Rai:

Kih

Tina Strachan:

Kish. Like, so she was essentially at the front of the room. Everyone

Madeleine Cleary:

could see your feet. Why did she just need it in the cafe? Why did she bring it back? Like,

Natasha Rai:

oh my God, that's the best mom story. My mom only came to one event and she was so nervous for me. I don't know. It must be a theme in my life of people being more nervous for me than I'm for myself. She comes rushing up to me at the end. That was really good. Where's the toilet? I'm like, oh, and then that was it. I didn't see her again. She just disappeared. She went home to go to the toilet.

Madeleine Cleary:

And I love though that she stayed for the whole thing. She was obviously busting to go, but she's like, I cannot, I cannot,

Natasha Rai:

I cannot leave. I have to stay. Oh my gosh.

Madeleine Cleary:

Number one's. The number twos.

Natasha Rai:

I think it was a number two. Oh my God. I can't believe I just, sorry, mom. She doesn't listen to the podcast. It's all fine.

Tina Strachan:

No wonder she needed to rush off. Poor love. Yeah.

Madeleine Cleary:

I think the lesson from the top tip is just don't bring your family to the events, like just. Leave them at home. Maybe. Maybe that is the top tip.

Tina Strachan:

Yeah. Consider who you know in the audience. Exactly.

Madeleine Cleary:

Uh, my mom has been amazing. She's, and I know like, you know it. I say all this, but she's, um, I reckon she's been to five or six events now and listened to the same stories, so,

Tina Strachan:

oh, why wouldn't she? She must be so proud sitting back and watching you.

Madeleine Cleary:

Well, I mean, she's also very proud of all of you guys as well, so, oh, she's got the shrine, the book. Oh, actually I wanna tell story. This is a really nice story. Um, today I was out with mom and, um, my mom's best friend, Karen, who's like a second mom to me, and Karen is. Big fan of the podcast. Like when I, 'cause I was at dinner with her tonight and I said, I've gotta go, I've gotta go, um, film record the podcast. She's like, when's it gonna come out? And I'm like, oh, Thursday. So she's like, I'm so excited. Um, so she came to, she lives in Brisbane and she came to Tina's, um, launch with all her grandchildren. And so one of her grandchildren, Tilly, um, she, um, finished the first book, Tina Nika and The Missing Key.

Natasha Rai:

Oh

Madeleine Cleary:

Bless. And she's like. She said to her grandma, she's like, this is my favorite book ever. She loves animals, her favorite animal's, the elephant, and she's just, she's, so, Karen's gonna go back to Brisbane and buy her the second book.

Tina Strachan:

Oh, bless

Madeleine Cleary:

her so much.

Tina Strachan:

So Karen, thank you.

Madeleine Cleary:

Yeah.

Tina Strachan:

And Tilly. Oh

Madeleine Cleary:

yes. Isn't that so sweet? So sweet, so sweet. You've got a big fan.

Tina Strachan:

Oh, love it. That's so cute. Oh, love the super

Natasha Rai:

fans.

Madeleine Cleary:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we'll say hi, Karen. Hi Karen. She'll be great.

Natasha Rai:

So just looking at the time. Mm-hmm. In terms of, you know, 'cause we've talked a little bit about burnout, we've talked about little time management, et cetera. What have you, have you got any tips for that? Because we've talked a lot recently, especially in our chats about time and managing you.

Madeleine Cleary:

What I'd be interested in, like what's the day in the life? What does the day in your average life look like? Like what do you do? How do you balance everything? I don't know. I'm just thinking that the other day. I'm like, I wanna know what your day looks like.

Natasha Rai:

What does

Madeleine Cleary:

your

Natasha Rai:

day look like?

Madeleine Cleary:

Okay, so quickly. So, yes. As soon as I wake up, I exercise.

Natasha Rai:

Mm-hmm.

Madeleine Cleary:

Then I log on to work, work like probably like eight till four 30, like when I like finishing early and then I do admin. Book admin stuff, like check my emails, do any podcast stuff from four 30 till, probably like six cook and prep dinner. That's usually done by seven. And then I have writing time till about 9, 9 30, and then I read and then go to bed, like that's my average day. And I know that's gonna look different to everyone else's day. Like that's how I fit it in. 'cause I'm not sure. But do people always say to you, how do you fit it all in? But I'm like, well, I have a, a job that's not stressful. And I think that's the only thing that's,

Tina Strachan:

and it's flexible too. Hey, like work

Madeleine Cleary:

from home. They

Tina Strachan:

have to be there like, you know, gym instructors and builders and stuff like you, you can't, you have to be there. And just the travel to work and the being present in an office and stuff is. Such a, a huge chunk of your day that you can't,

Madeleine Cleary:

huge chunk. Yes. I don't have like the commute, well, I commute one time, one day a week and I'll do my admin on the train and I'll do my riding. I'll skip probably the exercise in the morning and then do riding on the train in the morning, admin at night on the way home. So that's how I kind of fit it all in.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah.

Madeleine Cleary:

Um, what about, what about you Tash? Does your, um,

Natasha Rai:

so I have. Two types of average days. So, um, for me, usually get up and I two exercise first thing in the morning. 'cause if I don't do it, then I won't do it at all. Um, then I go for a walk and get a coffee. And if it's a writing day, I come back and I write, but I have to time box it up until now 'cause of all the festival prep. Um, and then. I do some other admin and then come back to writing in the afternoon if it's a counseling day exercise and then go to work. 'cause I have to, 'cause on a client day, I don't have any time to write. And by the time I come home, there's no way I'm gonna do it. Mm-hmm. Um, that's, that's it. It sounds really dull, doesn't it? But that's.

Madeleine Cleary:

No, and I think you have to know like, 'cause my job is not emotionally draining, so I find it really easy to write after work, but I still need that distance. So that's why the admin I do immediately after work 'cause it kind of feels like, like it's not a creative thing.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah. Well, I like, yeah, I find like on a Tuesday, especially, like my admin gets very, like, it's, it's very going back and forth. Like I'll have book admin, then I'll have counseling admin and book admin. Podcast. Yeah. Podcasts, like, yeah. It's Tuesday's. Very much a blended day of both.

Madeleine Cleary:

And there's a lot of admin, there's a lot of book admin. There is stuff that I completely underestimated, I think, publication, so, yeah.

Tina Strachan:

Yeah, yeah.

Natasha Rai:

What about you, Tina?

Tina Strachan:

Um, yeah, I kind of have a couple of different days. Like you Tash. Um, I, yeah. So as we all know, I get up early and I write for about an hour or so, first thing in the morning. That's when my brain is more time fresh. Let's

Madeleine Cleary:

remind everyone.

Tina Strachan:

It's four 30 in the morning. Oof. Um, so I normally write till about, it's meant to be five 30, but I always push it to like quarter to six and I like the very last second. Um, and so then I stop and I exercise as well. And then by that time the kids are getting up. 'cause I'm com pretty, I'm pretty guaranteed to get that time, um, with no kids. So I, I figure I can exercise when the kids are awake, but I can't run while they're awake. So, um, I, yeah, have to prioritize. Um, do that, and then if it's a workday, so I work three days a week in the office about two days a week. So then it's just, it's just work. And then after work it's kids and family and stuff, and I, and then that's it for the day. So I can't, that's, that's all the writing time that I get in the morning.

Madeleine Cleary:

Um, do you get that one hour of that beautiful sort of uninterrupted time?

Tina Strachan:

Mm-hmm.

Madeleine Cleary:

When do you fit in your admin?

Tina Strachan:

Yeah, that's a good question. Um, in the car on the way to work.

Madeleine Cleary:

Yeah. You do

Tina Strachan:

a little bit, a little bit of that. Um, no, I, I would never, um, yeah. Honest, I don't know, um, you know, uh, checking my emails at dinner on my phone or, um, but I do have, I. And so if there's anything pressing that will, like the admin, whatever I'm asked to do, that's admin will take over from the writing in the morning. Um, but as long as it's writing aligned, I'm, I am okay with doing it. So if my publishers ask something for me from me, then a hundred percent I have to do that. Um, but then I have, so sort of two days, um. Of no work. Where I do it's writing, it's a hundred percent writing. Like I don't do anything else, which is very hard. It's very hard when you come home and you like have this house that needs to be cleaned and there's stuff that needs to be done. But like, you know, I just say to my husband, I haven't, I, I. I'm not taking this day off and not working and earning money so I can stay home and clean the house. Yes. Like it's important, like writing, it's, I have to get the writing done. Otherwise, otherwise as well go to work. Like either way the house doesn't get clean, but um, yeah, so that's just super important. And um, and then the weekends like it's pretty much just yeah, try and creep in. I might get up at five, got up at five this morning. Oh. Or

Natasha Rai:

half hour sleep in.

Tina Strachan:

Sleep in and, um, yeah, again, try and get in an hour and then, um. Yeah. Exercise and family stuff for the whole day. Yeah. So it's, um, yeah, it's a little bit different on the days, but you know, as long as I can get that riding in, in the morning, I feel like I've done, I've done, I get really grumpy if I don't get it in. I feel really ripped off for whatever reason. Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? But

Madeleine Cleary:

no, it's, it's, it's good I think, yeah, that you've got that structure and routine, but it's also, it's a lot as well, Tina, like, you know, the sleep and everything. Like we're recording this at the moment, 9:00 PM our time on a Sunday. 'cause literally this is the only time the three of. Could find, you know, and I guess that shows the time management, isn't it, like trying to align our calendars because all of us have our own different priorities and I, I, I really like the way that you said that you're like, you know, there are things in the house that need to be done or should be done, but you are putting writing first. And I think it helps when you've got like a contract. Or a, you know, being a published author to be able to say that. But even if you're a, before you're publisher. If you're emerging writer, you also, it's hard, you know, I know it's hard, but you, you should try and protect that time.

Natasha Rai:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's about valuing it for yourself.

Madeleine Cleary:

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Tina Strachan:

yeah,

Natasha Rai:

yeah. Without anyone else placing a value on it, like you Yeah, you can do. Yeah,

Madeleine Cleary:

like sometimes I look at the bed, I'm like, I need to make the bed. But some, but I'm like, but if I do that, then I'm gonna start putting away clothes and then I'm gonna start washing. Uh, it

Tina Strachan:

never ends.

Madeleine Cleary:

I always say, you know what, I'm just gonna leave it. I'm just gonna leave it and I'm gonna get my riding done and then I'll feel better.

Tina Strachan:

Yeah. Um, and when I feel really bad about it, like at the moment I'm looking at my really dusty skirting boards and I'm like, they really need to clean. And I just think to myself, like, so if it's on a particular day and I think, well, I could be. Cleaning the skirting boards, which in 10, 15 years time, no one's gonna know if on this particular day of my life I had cleaned skirting boards or not. But I, but if I write for an hour instead, that actually in 10, 15 years time could make, could be, make all the difference, like could actually change my life or, you know, that to me is more valuable. I'll always have those words, but no one's gonna clean care about my clean skirting boards. Insightful and deep wisdom

Madeleine Cleary:

and it's almost like just, um, forgiving yourself for like, 'cause there's gonna be guilt in whatever you decide, but I think, well at least there was in. For me, maybe a year ago, but I feel like I've much better now at putting boundaries around the writing time. And I think I can sort of say to my friends, you know, if I haven't, I got one friend, one very dear friend I have not seen in five months. She had a, um, a little boy at the same time when the Butterfly women was published and I saw a photo. She posted up a six month. Photo and I was like, I have not seen her. That means in five months. 'cause I saw her a month after. But I messaged her, I was like, I feel so bad, like. You know, we live on the other side of the city, like it's a little bit difficult, but I said, I'm so sorry. She's like, no, you've also given birth to something this year, and I think friends forgive, you know? Yeah. And you have to remind yourself of that.

Tina Strachan:

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Natasha Rai:

Exactly. Yeah. You know, also, just on that note, Tina, about just skirting boards. Buy a robot clean out. 'cause that's what AI should be for, to clean while you write. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Not for them to write while you clean, right?

Tina Strachan:

Mm-hmm. Oh, I have aro, I have a robot vacuum and mop, which is amazing. Um, it doesn't do the skirting boards. That's what everybody needs to do. They need to do the make, get one that does skirting boards and goes upstairs, and then my life would just be

Madeleine Cleary:

complete. Would you pay one of the boys, like just give them pocket money to just getting bored? Like

Speaker:

just

Tina Strachan:

get the slave? I just don't think they would. I just don't think they would, then they don't care.

Madeleine Cleary:

What's the going rate these days for kids chores?

Tina Strachan:

Oh, if you can get them to do them. I give them a, I give them a dollar for however old they are, so it goes up a dollar every year. But I haven't paid like I've I off every week, but they don't wanna do it. I don't care.

Natasha Rai:

I'll come around, I can make quite a lot of money if ever thought, oh, okay. Maybe we should, uh, on that notion.

Madeleine Cleary:

We're getting tired now.

Natasha Rai:

Yes. Um, thank you both. Any last tips before we wrap up?

Tina Strachan:

Pitch festivals.

Natasha Rai:

Pitch festivals? Yes.

Tina Strachan:

Go to go to festivals and pitch festivals.

Madeleine Cleary:

Take a break. Yep. Sit in bed if you can. It's hard when you've got kids. I know, but if anything you can do just to switch off, even if it's just for half an hour.

Natasha Rai:

Yep. And practice. Even if it's for presentations, whatever it's for. Yeah. Practice.

Tina Strachan:

Mm-hmm. Good tips. Even if it feels silly tips, just get up and do it. Do it in the mirror. Do it in the car. Yeah.

Madeleine Cleary:

Love that. Yeah.

Natasha Rai:

Good. Thank you. See, bye.

Tina Strachan:

Thank you for listening to the book Deal podcast. We're able to bring you these weekly writerly chats because of our amazing patrons. Join the TPD family by becoming a member of our Patreon community@patreon.com slash the book deal podcast. And if you love the pod, please give us a rating or review. And don't forget to follow us on Instagram and Facebook.