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SPOILER BOOK CLUB: Kate Mildenhall on The Hiding Place
SPOILER BOOK CLUB: 'The Hiding Place' with Kate Mildenhall
Madeleine leads a spoiler-filled discussion with Kate on her latest novel, The Hiding Place (November 2025, Simon & Schuster). Kate shares insights into the book's development, character choices, and the ethical dilemmas the characters face. Kate discusses her research process, murder plots, star picket fences and death cap mushrooms.
Kate Mildenhall is an author, writing teacher and podcaster. Her debut novel Skylarking was longlisted for Debut Fiction in the 2017 Indie Book Awards and the 2017 Voss Literary Prize. Her second novel, The Mother Fault, was longlisted for the 2021 ABIA General Fiction Book of the Year and shortlisted for the 2021 Aurealis Science Fiction Novel of the Year. The Hummingbird Effect was shortlisted for the 2024 ABIA Literary Fiction Book of the Year and longlisted for the 2024 Stella Prize and the 2024 Indie Book Awards for Fiction. In 2024, Kate released her first picture book, To Stir with Love, illustrated by Jess Racklyeft, shortlisted for the 2025 Indie Book Awards and the 2025 ABIA Children’s Book of the Year and Notable in the CBCA Book Awards for Early Readers. Kate co-hosted The First Time Podcast where she interviewed over 200 Australian and international writers.
00:00 Introduction to the Book Deal Podcast
00:56 Welcome to the Spoiler Book Club
01:50 Characters and Plot Twists
05:35 Writing Challenges and Inspirations
12:35 The Evolution of Key Scenes
22:10 Mapping Out the Novel
23:05 Realizing the Right Structure
23:24 Advice from Fellow Writers
24:15 Pacing and Reader Expectations
24:28 The Climactic Scenes
25:17 Conflicted Feelings About the Ending
26:06 The Final Scene and Its Inspiration
26:40 The Role of Surveillance
27:22 Stella's Motivations
28:10 The Play Within a Play
30:06 Multiple Endings
31:17 Questions from the Audience
35:46 Character Development and Dialogue
37:13 Balancing Realism and Fiction
37:29 Influence of Fellow Writers
39:12 Mushroom Lady and Reader Response
42:33 Research and Realism
43:49 Camping Plans and Final Thoughts
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x:how to get that elusive book deal. So no matter what's. Stage of writing your at. We've got you covered. I'm Tina Strachan. I'm Madeleine Cleary. And I'm Natasha Rai. And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors
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Speaker:Welcome to the Book Deal Podcasts, first spoiler book club where we dive between the covers of your favorite novels. In this episode, I chat with bestselling and highly acclaimed author, Kate Mildenhall, and a few other readers and writers about Kate's latest novel, the Hiding Place, and as the name of this book Club suggests, switch off now unless you're happy with all the spoilers. Also, a language warning for this episode in case you've got little ones in the car. Enjoy.
Madeleine Cleary:Kate Mildenhall, welcome back to the Book Deal podcast.
Kate Mildenhall:Thank you so
Kate Mildenhall (2):much, Madeline.
Madeleine Cleary (2):Now a warning for our listeners. If you've missed all our spoiler tags and warnings, this is your last chance to get out. Now, if you have not read Kate's novel, the Hiding Place, or you don't want to be spoiled, then this is your time to leave. Um, so don't blame us you've been warned.
Kate Mildenhall:Yeah. You have been warned.
Madeleine Cleary (2):Um, so we've got a lot to cover tonight, Kate. Um, namely Death by Star Picket Fence, uh, death cap, mushroom gravy, mine shafts. Highly questionable decision making, and Phil's Bloody Lamb
Kate Mildenhall:Ah, that is such a great way to introduce it and a way that no one has before because they're all spoilers. I love
Madeleine Cleary (2):Boilers. This is Spoiler Book Club. All right. So I wanna start first about, uh, using your friends' book in spo.
Speaker 5:Mm-hmm.
Madeleine Cleary (2):Um, so you've said quite publicly before that the Willow Creek Camping crew is not your, your own camping crew friends. Um, so I'm just double checking that you and your friends definitely have not covered up any dead bodies.
Kate Mildenhall:We have not, or if we have, I am not privy to this infor information. So we have not, we have, I have to say on various occasions we have. Hypothetically discussed as a group, mostly as the, my, like my girlfriends, if we're away on a girl's weekend, that if for some reason we killed a body, we killed someone in or came across a body, how would we deal with it? Uh, so we have had that kind of discussion about who would bring what qualities to the table
Madeleine Cleary (2):What would you bring to the table?
Kate Mildenhall:generally, just, um, you know, having everyone's back. Uh, I'm not a scientist. There's one in our group who is the scientist who we decided could deal with the forensics and there was one person who self-declared that, uh, they would go to the cops as well. So, you know, there there was, we are a varied bunch.
Madeleine Cleary (2):I, I actually know that because at your book launch, uh, at read, oh, you are looking horrified. Um, I was sitting right next to your camping crew. They were against the wall, all of them.
Speaker 5:They were literally,
Madeleine Cleary (2):they were literally against the wall. Every time you said something about the book characters plot arcs, um, they would all give each other shifty ice. So I'm just.
Kate Mildenhall:What has been discussed is, and I think that this is really interesting because there's that idea of, um, and, and this is for all writers of what we don't recognize, um, what might be our blind spots. And, and so what I do know has, has happened is that there are various offshoot conversations between my friends where they are saying, oh, that's me. Do you remember when I did that? Or that's you, or that's someone else. And then a, um, a little sister of, of the gang of the kind of extended gang who sometimes does camp with us, um, sent her sister a message saying, is everyone really angry with Kate? So there is clearly enough in there, um, that, that people feel, um, it's familiar territory. But I think the other thing that's been delightful during the tour. What's made me feel a little bit more comfortable is how many random people who are in no way related to me are identifying strongly with the, with the group dynamics, um, which is what I was going for. So, you know, hopefully that's the way, but it, it was one of the most stressful parts of, of writing the book, of making sure that, um. That idea that I've talked about, I think I talked about it when we recorded previously, Madeline, that the idea was that I wanted to take the piss outta myself first and not out of friendship itself. So that the idea of kind of us, of us all being in on the joke and not feeling like someone or someone's particular character trait was the butt of a joke. So it, it felt like a difficult line to tread. Maybe I'll go back to historical fiction like you.
Madeleine Cleary (2):You are always welcome, Kate. I mean, you always dabble in across genres, so I'm sure you'll be back. Um, who was the, so talking about that kind of difficulty and the challenges, who, which character did you find the most difficult and challenging to write?
Kate Mildenhall:I guess the characters, Phil and Lou, um, and Nest to a degree. Were the easiest to write because they had kind of so much to do, if that makes sense.
Madeleine Cleary (2):Yes.
Kate Mildenhall:Um, um, I found getting into Josie's kind of science brain, which is something that I really wanted to do. So Josie's the one, you know, who's, who's planting the Acacia. Um, that was a bit trickier for me, uh, because I wanted to reflect. Her scientific thinking. It's something that I did with mim in the Mother Fault. I wanted to kind of reflect the, the experience and the profession. Profession. so, so she was hard for that reason and, and Stella was a joy to write.
Speaker 9:Mm.
Kate Mildenhall:Stella, the teenager. Um, but I was also very conscious of getting that right. So there's one scene in there, the scene where she's talking about what's happened with the, um, hockey girls and getting called into the welfare person's office at school. Uh, that one I checked really carefully with my eldest daughter and she went over it with me And checked that it was, that I had, um, that I'd got that right. The other thing too. in terms of feedback that I got, which is was really interesting and really important, Teagan Bennett Daylight, uh, amazing writer and um, and mentor and manuscript assessor. She did a really early read, which is before the one that Mark FL Russell did for me, which was amazing. Uh, and her feedback was about Wendy and sell in the general store. And it didn't have to change much, but she said, just be really careful that you don't caricature these characters because these characters are the ones that you have to get absolutely right. Because, she quite rightly picked up what my intent was, which was, to make fun of the city slickers, but not to make fun of the people who lived in that place.
Madeleine Cleary (2):You did. I think you did that really well. Um, let's talk about Phil though, because I think Phil's just his cha, his chapters are just a joy to read. Like they're, they're so fun and so funny. Did you enjoy writing from
Kate Mildenhall:I so enjoyed him and actually, um, I've just been going, I was saying to you, I've just been going back through my journal today. So I keep a, a journal of each book that I write since my second book, and they end up like, I'm looking at this one. This is 106,000 words, the one for the hiding place. And it's got all of my notes and my questions to myself and my research and, um, when things go wrong, et cetera. And I found the section where I was at my kids' basketball training and sitting upstairs. Where I start writing Phil,'cause he's a basketball coach and I knew that I had this guy there, you know, that there was a couple and, um, but I literally have started like, you know. It's this kind of guy. Um, he's a chewer. He's got a really square head. Um, he is almost military in his movement. He was attractive at one time, but he doesn't realize this, that that spark's gone. He's an old footy player who still has tickets on himself. Like, these are all the notes that I've got in my journal. And that's, and, and, and, you know, so after that, that's where Phil came from. Um, and really early on too, I knew. I knew that food, food, when you're camping for any campers here, other than my mom and dad,'cause I know they are, you know, and on holidays, I guess group holidays and at this time of year, food is such a central joy and concern of families and big groups, you know, and, and I think for us, when we are camping, it always feels like you are kind of always preparing for the next meal or cleaning up after it or thinking about the next one. Um, so I knew that that was gonna feature. As a key dynamic or tension, you know, on each of these three days. Uh, and I knew that I wanted a lamb. And I knew that Phil was the guy to do it that exact kind of. Um, and I watched like Phil watches, uh, the YouTubes to see, um, other guys doing their lamb spit. I watched a lot of YouTube and um, TikTok, lamb spit men, um, getting ready with their little brushes and all their little things. And uh, so I really knew I wanted that and, and I really knew that I. I, I wanted that to become a key moment where, where they, you know, where he has to kill the, where he stuffs up killing the lamb.
Madeleine Cleary (2):I think it's interesting'cause I felt like I related to a lot of the characters and that actually scared me a little bit. But I could also see Phil in so many blokes that I know as well.
Kate Mildenhall:Yeah. And I think, you know, I think one of the things is that, that. Tension. And I've had so many guys who've read it and said, oh, am I a little bit, am I a little bit like Phil? Um, I hope I'm not, but maybe I am. But also people who who come to have, as I did some empathy for him he's very, um, I guess he's in a way. Honest with himself about what he's trying to do. He's the shit steerer, you know, and, and people will have that friend who, who likes to poke the bear and wants to be the one who makes arguments or who wants to say, oh, you know, to be honest, but to speak frankly and that, those kinds of things. Um, it's definitely not me'cause I'm, I'm more of a peacekeeper or I like to think I am. Um, so I, I guess in a sense I admire that quality. Of him. Um, but he was also very easy to, to make fun of.
Madeleine Cleary (2):Oh, for sure. And he is, he is a bit of a, you know, poke the bear, stir up things, but he's also a people pleaser in the end too.
Kate Mildenhall:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I also did really when I, I, I, I remember now, I haven't found this point in the journal yet, but I remember when I decided that he was gonna be the one who was off the booze that I was like, yes. Yes, that's exactly who Phil is.'cause he is also gonna be, um, you know, very smug about it. A bit of a martyr about it. And then again, these are these things that sometimes and the writers in the who are here might know this. There's things that you put in. I call them portals because when you come back you realize that they were like a gift you gave yourself early on, and you didn't know what they were there for or what they were meant to be. And so the fact that I'd made him the, the, the one who wasn't drinking when everyone else is drinking so much, and then realizing that that allowed. For a point where he does start drinking again over the weekend was such a joy because I was like, oh, yes, I, I gifted myself this part of the plot or this little kind of moment.
Madeleine Cleary (2):Clever. That's, I think that's an a really good tip. Um, all right. I wanna talk about death by star picket fence. I had to like write that term down. I didn't know what it was, so I Googled it.
Kate Mildenhall (2):What did you find?
Madeleine Cleary (2):Oh, I saw it. Yeah. I had the, the poking up and I was just imagining Jacob, you know, sort of pro feet scurrying in the dirt and everything. Um, okay. Jacob, how, how, what was the process of working out your not murder victim, but
Kate Mildenhall:Oh yeah. Well, that, that was a massive process first. So, so many people died at various times, uh, in one draft. Um, multiple people
Speaker 9:who
Kate Mildenhall:Um, um, like the Hunter,
Madeleine Cleary (2):Oh, Aiden,
Kate Mildenhall:Aiden died, but he wasn't Aiden at that stage, but he died as well. Um, and at one stage here, here's all the spoilers. At one stage it was Avril who killed him at the end to protect her daughters. Um, uh, at one point. At one point, it's hard to say this because then what if all of you say, oh no, that would've been better. Um, at one point, the kids, for a really long time, the kids lured Jacob into a mine shaft. And then they, um, and then they left him in there.
Madeleine Cleary (2):who was the Mastermind? Stella
Kate Mildenhall:the mastermind, but all the kids, a little bit Lord of the flies. Um, they had, yeah, they were angrier at him. Um, he'd been more cruel to them directly. Um, but what I realized, and the reason that I moved away from that, it was this thing of circling the idea that I knew that the kids were central and that the, the kids, um. Kind of as a block led by Stella. Were, were really central to the plot. Um, and there was a point when I realized I can't make the kids do it. And it was sometimes, I don't know if others writers do this, but sometimes I would do these exercises where I'd like pitch ahead, even though I knew that I would not put this in the book. So I'd pitch ahead like 10 years or 20 years and trying to write. The kids knowing that they had lured someone into a hole and and killed them when they were kids was too much for me. So I decided the kids couldn't do it. And then, and then a little bit inspired by the dear, the high country murder that was happening. Um, I decided that they would burn the body. But again, this is where you, where your research really works well because, um, I realized that they couldn't get the fire hot enough and dad, maybe, I think you helped with this CFA man and mom. Um, I realized that they couldn't get the fire hot enough over that period of time to get rid of the body. Um, at one point. Mark May even have read this version. At one point they moved the body multiple times to different places over the weekend. Um, and I really liked that one as well, but it became even more of a fast and I kind of, I couldn't fit everything in. At one point death was by Crossbow. Um, but really hard to accidentally kill someone with a crossbo.
Madeleine Cleary (2):I
Kate Mildenhall:Because you have to kind of pull it right back. Uh, so then decided on pick, fence and tractor. So the star picture, um, was most joyously acted out for me, um, by my husband and, the guy he landscapes for where I, and I didn't even ask for this, but one day they sent me, um, a picture from site where they were testing out how far the star pick would go in, um, how far the T-shirt would go up. Um. I, I remember talking to people at length about, um, how much blood there would be, um, the kinds of, the kind of max of how the tractor would have to move, um, for these things to happen. Because the thing that was most difficult for me, aside from killing someone, which was a little bit difficult and working out who to kill, was trying to make sure that the reader would come along with me, that they would buy it. They would be like, yes, I see how everyone is angry right now. I see how this, um, moment has come into being. I see how Ness is kind of clamoring on the tractor. I see what happens. I see it and I buy it. Uh, so I needed them to buy that part, and then I needed them to buy what happens next and the terrible decisions that everyone, everyone makes, um, but also the joy. Of knowing that this book was about property and boundaries and, uh, fence lines specifically, and that it was the fence itself that would kill Jacob was another one of those moments where I was like, of course the fence is what kills him.
Madeleine Cleary (2):Of course that makes total sense. Um, and yes, I could very visually picture this. I think we, I said to you, um, I. First read this book when I was on the beach and I got to that scene and uh, my husband was next to me and I was making these like gruesome, kind of like, ooh noises. So you did it. You did it well, Kate, um, death cap mushrooms though. That was another possible, death. I actually thought Josie was gonna let it go when she was doing that. I don't know if others, I was just going, no, no, no, no, no, no. Josie, what are you thinking? Whatcha doing?
Kate Mildenhall:I'm so glad. I'm so glad. It's the, it's the most joy when you get messages and sometimes you get messages from people, like while they are reading and getting those ones where they're like, oh my God, what is she doing? What is she doing? They were some of the best.
Madeleine Cleary (2):tell us about the mushrooms. And I know that everyone's probably really interested in mushrooms, in particularly living in Melbourne at the moment too.
Kate Mildenhall:Yeah. So the mushrooms came in originally because, I think the way it happened is that I wanted a, a, an oak tree. Um, and then I realized that death caps often grew under them in this place at this time. I was like, okay, there's gonna be death caps, there's gonna be all of these threats. I just wanted to keep, the river is a threat. The mind charts are a threat. The mushrooms are a threat. The people obviously are The, biggest threats. Again, it was one of those things I knew that, um, Josie's loyalty to Lou, um, I wanted that to keep amping up during the book to an extent where she would also do anything. You know, we, we've got this kind of dynamic where they will all do anything for each other to a certain degree. Um, and then of course. Again, it was one of those things. She had the mushrooms, she had them, uh, she hadn't put them in the fire. Um, and for a while I thought that just the threat of it alone would be enough. And then when I realized that I was kind of, I guess, amping up the, um, the funny and the satire and a bit of the theatrics, I already had the, um. The idea of the, the show to finish it. I always knew that that's the way it was gonna finish. I wasn't quite sure how, but I knew that that was how it was gonna finish. Um, yeah, it, it was like, oh, this is this. She's gonna go, she's gonna try and do it. She's gonna try and get rid of, um, she's gonna try and get rid of Aiden and, and Dave and Libby as well, because, you know, maybe that they have to go too. Um, I didn't ever think that it would happen. I didn't, I, I never intended for them to die as well. Um, so yeah, I always knew she was gonna pull back from the edge, but it was fun to make her go there.
Madeleine Cleary (2):Oh yeah, yeah. Nerve wracking for all of us. Um. It's interesting because slowly the, so what happened to Jacob is revealed. So all the campers are starting to all find out slowly, slowly, slowly, incrementally, and not one of them really ever waves about trying to help cover it up. All of them just go,
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary (2):okay, no worries. Let's, how are we gonna do this? How are we gonna do it? Is this an old friends thing, do you think?
Kate Mildenhall:I think also the, the fact that it happened slowly. Um, so I think had, had there been 15 people in a round table right at the start, somebody that you know. Would've convinced everyone else, no, we can't do this. But that idea of, of the incremental stuff ups and the small decisions that people make, and then you're like, okay, well I guess if everyone's already made the decision, then I'll just go along with that. Um, that's really what I wanted to play on because as each new person finds out, it's. I'm like, wow, we've lost that opportunity. Now someone's gonna be implicated. You know, everything after the first moment means that, um, you know, either ness or Lu are gonna be implicated. Uh, so that, that was, that was kind of fun to play with, but I did have to have a spreadsheet, particularly when I gave it to the editor. Of who knew at what time, which secret, you know, I think it's called the secret spreadsheet, and it's like, well, who knows about the affair? Who knows about the, um, who knows about the body? You know, all of these things to try and make sure that I had that right because it was important to me that one of the adults and, and, you know, kind of had to be Marni, that she never knows until, until the end. That that was important as well.
Madeleine Cleary (2):So in terms of, um, you, you said you had this idea of what the end would be, um, and you also have like multiple perspectives as well, and so you've got this secret. Spreadsheet. How else did you map all the multiples perspectives? Did you plot out this novel?'cause often thrillers are plotted.
Kate Mildenhall (2):Yes.
Kate Mildenhall:I don't, I've actually got something I can show
Madeleine Cleary (2):Oh, oh. We're gonna get show and tell. This is exciting.
Kate Mildenhall:I didn't have, so this is the way that I, like people might've seen these before. This is the way that I do like just the contents chapter outline. But this, I think was the first one where I color coded the characters.'cause I didn't really plan it. I didn't plan it to go in order necessarily. so I'm holding up, um, a, a kind of an outline document with chapter headings. It's three pieces of, um, a four papers stuck together and it's color coordinated with, uh, six different colors and they're all the different character names. And this was a really good one I remember because it was when I realized that I had them about right. I've kind of got 14, 12, 13 sections. Speech. So I was like, oh, instinctively I've given them a kind of the right amount of space on the page. I had to move a few things around. Um, I did a lot of, uh, like at various times, and Mark was incredibly helpful. Um, and you probably remember this differently even than I did do. Mark. Mark was incredibly helpful. Um, and Haley Scribner was incredibly helpful and Anna Downs, um, three writers who I sought advice from at different points in the shape. Of what, um, a crime thriller needed to reveal at what time. So what Mark was really, really good at, um, was explaining that for a long time, the death kind of happened more in the middle of the book. And he quite rightly said, you know, a reader is gonna anticipate it either being upfront or at the end. They're kind of the two places that you could do it. And of course, as he quite rightly said, you can do whatever you want. These are the kinds of shapes that a reader will expect. And I remember Anna doing a similar thing with me at one point where I couldn't identify what was wrong with the pace of it. I had all the characters, I had the, the space, I had all these things going on, but there was something that wasn't kind of working about it. So working out where those kind of climactic scenes were and how each day was gonna finish and where the stakes were at each point was really important.
Madeleine Cleary (2):Because a lot of times as well, some of the thrillers are like the who done its as well. But this is very much, you know, upfront who's done it and it's just that slow reveal, which is really cool.
Kate Mildenhall:Yeah. And how is it going to resolve? And I think, um, at one point my editor said it goes too fast. You know, like there's, there's the, the pace is too fast. Um, and so trying to get it. To work up towards the ending so that, you know, with only maybe 10, 15 pages to go, I don't know, you can tell me readers if this is how you felt. Um, you're still not sure what's gonna happen. And the other thing that I wanted you to feel is conflicted about what you wanted to happen. Did you want them to get away with it? I can see you laughing, Jack. Like do you want them to be able to. Pack up and roll on out of there and everything to be okay, or did you want them to get found out? And that, I, I think that's a really interesting question. That's the kind of question I like being asked as a, as a reader, I guess.
Madeleine Cleary (2):Mm. And maybe.'cause we know that Jacob is not a good person. We kind of assume that at the end. It does help the things you go, oh, I kind of wish they got away with it at the end. I dunno. I don't know. Maybe we are gonna open up questions very soon, so if you have some comments about this, we'd be very, very keen to hear your views and your thoughts. Let's talk about the end.'cause you said that you always had that scene of the play at the end, and then obviously the. End Stella uploads the video. She's edited with all the hijinks from that weekend. Um, and like you said, I think when Stella uploaded that video, I was both cheering her on, but also going, why would you do that? Like, just, oh. So I think it's a, it's a mixture of both. So why do you think she did it?
Kate Mildenhall:Right. So it's a mixture of both. And I think there are a couple of things. The, the idea of cameras and surveillance, like in one part that's been something I've been interested in. My other works as well. But when I went to visit this property, um, at Cooper's Creek, the original property that it's, it's based on, and we were coming like down the mountain exactly as it's described in the book. There were all these cameras in the trees and I was like. That is so weird. But also, oh yeah, well maybe people are doing dodgy things out here, you know, or, or whatever they've got'em for. So I always had this idea of cameras and surveillance and then the deer hunter and I knew about trail cameras and all of those things. So that, that kind of, um, that wasn't an idea at the start. It was just bubbling along underneath. I think stellar acts in a way that I can certainly recognize. In 15-year-old, 16-year-old me, which is deeply principled, thinks she's absolutely right and justified and has no concept of thinking past the moment and what is the potential fallout of what she's about to do. So with that kind of, you know, huge rush of, of fury or indignance or self-righteousness that. One can get, I, I imagine at any age, but particularly in those teen years that she just goes with it. I will make you all pay and I will show you what incredible hypocrites you are. Um, I, the actual, when I say I always had the ending, I knew that, that were gonna put on a concert. Because that was a big part of my growing up and a big part of, you know, the camping thing of the kids doing their show and all the adults sitting around and not wanting to watch anymore, but they have to. Um, but it was when I was at Varuna at the end of 2024, um, and I had this most magnificent crew there, including, um, Chris Ne and, um, their husband, Anthony Mullins, who's a screenwriter, um, and also Laura Elvey. Um, and it was there that we were talking about, um, Hamlet and Shakespeare and the idea of a play within a play. All of these kinds of ideas and of, um, how a play within a play might reveal the murderer, et cetera. And I said, oh, I couldn't possibly do it like that though. I couldn't do the play within a play. And lo I can remember Laura saying, why not? So I had. Originally it was just the uploading of the kind of, um, look at what we made to celebrate that we were away this weekend. But then I turned it into this idea of the, the play.
Madeleine Cleary (2):And I love it.'cause at the start everyone's laughing and thinking how, how, what great parents we are like, look at these children, look what they're performing. It's so great. And then as it just, it's, it's a masterful what Stella did. It is, regardless of whether she should have done it or not,
Kate Mildenhall:yeah. And. And the joy in writing that too. And that took a lot of editing to get right. Um, originally I wrote the whole thing as it was kind of coming outta my brain. I wrote it all from Stella's perspective. But once I understood what the novel was gonna look like, I knew that it had to rotate through the perspectives, but also what a gift that was. Because each character understands what's happening at a different point in time as well. It's a cascade exactly like the cascade of disaster has happened to them. But then there's kind of like this, I don't know what you would call it, like almost, I, I think of it as three endings. So there's the end of the play, um, and then there's the, the killing of the deer, and then there's the general store. So it was like these three endings, and that's a risky move to pull off. And my publisher didn't necessarily want that, but I knew that I. Again with this idea that I never wanted to satirize friendship itself, and I wanted to see, and I hope that this is what comes across that in the end, in that little tableau session section where they all kind of, when they realize that, um, Aiden's gonna kill the deer, they all leap in front of each other. That was really important. And I fought really hard for that because that was the bit where I was like. They've done these terrible things. Um, but in the end, this is how they will go down together kind of idea. Um, so yeah, so it was like having these little kind of resolutions within the thing.'cause that I also wanted Wendy Incel to be going like, well, we could have told you that something like this would happen when these blow ins come into town. You know, so like, just to have those three little bits.
Madeleine Cleary (2):It's perfect. It was a perfect ending, um, to a wonderful book. Um, we are going to now open up to you if you've got any questions you would like to ask Kate and while you are warming up your brains, um, and feel free to ha come off mute or pop it in the chat if you'd prefer. I'm gonna ask Kate one of our pre-submitted questions. Um, so we've got a few actually. Um. So we might have actually answered this, but when you set out to write the book, did you know how it would end? So I think you've answered that bit. And how many people can, did you do a count? How many people died before you landed on a final draft? Kate?
Kate Mildenhall:Um, yeah, lots in, lots in different situations. The other thing, so yeah, so Aiden died at one. Point, um, because he was also shot. There was also these IES in it for a long time and a shipping container. Um, which, yeah, so, so that was my original thing. There was this whisper when I went to visit the property, the original property, Cooper's Creek, there was this whisper of. Bike is being involved and you know, you never wanna research too deeply with biking just in cases. Um, but, uh, I did a little bit of talking around the place and, and realized that yeah, sometimes these big rural properties. That's where Bies put their stuff in shipping containers, um, and maybe they grow their weed or various other things that they have. And so for a long time, um, it was bies who were on the fence line or, you know, there was a shipping container that hadn't been moved when the property sold. Uh, and the key scene, and one of the first scenes that I wrote was that Josie, um. Goes to plant the Acacia and she finds the shipping container and she's trying to look inside and she drops her phone inside and can't get it out. And you know, so there's sometimes scenes where you write them and you're like, that's ace. I feel stressed. My characters are stressed. This is a high stake situation, even though it's kind of not, but it really is like I am deeply stressed about this phone being in the shipping container. And then as you move things along it, it doesn't work anymore. And it's a really, it can be really hard to get rid. This is the classic, kill your darlings. You know? It can be really hard to get rid of scenes. Feel like they were integral to the draft. Um, but yeah, the bies, the bies didn't made it make it, so some of them died at one point. At one point, like I, I've just seen in my journal, I had, does one of the kids die? And very quickly I said, no, that's not what happens. Um, I couldn't
Madeleine Cleary (2):Actually, when I was doing my second read through, you do. Set it up that something will happen to a kid as well. And I think the reader is constantly anxious when Eden goes
Kate Mildenhall:Yeah. And that when Eden goes missing, and, and that's, that's kind of a catalyst for lots of things too. Um, because that's where Stella really loses her shit too, because, you know, she's like, I shouldn't be the one who's has to look after the kids. Um, so. That was important, but I wanted that constant kind of threat to be there all the time. Um, yeah. So lots and lots of people died and, and I think maybe I, I've said this before, people might have heard me say that it was Hay Scribner who's who, when I said, how do you decide who to kill though? Hay? Like, that's so stressful. And she said, you kill whoever, excuse my language, whoever the fuck you want. And I was like, okay, that's fine. Then I don't have to ethically. Come to this point where I know that this is the right person to kill. You know? You can just kill whoever you want in fiction.
Madeleine Cleary (2):was, at least Jacob was a bad person, so it probably made him easier killing him.
Kate Mildenhall:Exactly.
Speaker 5:It, it was, it was,
Madeleine Cleary (2):do we have any questions?
Kate Mildenhall (2):Oh, there's Mark putting his hand up. Hi Mark.
Madeleine Cleary (2):hi, mark.
Speaker 2:You know how much I love this, book. The, the thing I was really fascinated by,'cause you've got, um, multiple perspectives, quite a few characters to juggle. They've all got very different ideas. They're all kind of, um, complete, when they, they also tend to go on these kind of like internal monologues where they're talking about their viewpoint and they're very funny and stuff like that. Were you starting with, okay, I've got all these, I'm gonna have the, these archetypes, and suddenly here's the event and then kind of let them build their character through that, or with these rants kind of almost part of your character development, when you were writing it in the beginning. If, if that makes sense.
Kate Mildenhall:Yeah, it's a really good question. Um, a lot of the rants, the internal stuff came out fully formed, um, but at different points was assigned to different characters. So, yeah, the archetype of the characters didn't come first. The other thing that was really interesting about this is that I wrote a lot of the conversations or the fights, especially the ones that happened around the campfire and there were lots more of them. I wrote those pretty early on, um, without attributes sometimes so without dialogue tags. So I would be writing them and know the gist of the argument. And the gist of the different viewpoints, but not necessarily who was saying them. Uh, and so then that was part of the editing and a really hard part to get voices, right? Because one, I remember one of the bits of feedback at one point was, um, sometimes in those bigger ensemble scenes, we lose whose point of view we're in because there's so much dialogue and you're not getting the point of view of the character. So that, I had to work really carefully on that. Yeah, so, so actually one of the things I would do is go, okay, well, I want them to talk about, um, you know, Marnie's political campaign. What are all the possible opinions people are gonna have on this? And then I would kind of stretch out from there. So yeah, at different points. And because originally there was like 17 adults, um, which was too many. To have, even though that's how many I camp with, and I know that to be true of life. Uh, like in many things, when you're writing a novel, um, it can't, it like with dialogue, it can't actually realistically represent life. You, you're doing it in the novel form. Um, I should say too, when like, I, I haven't said this enough and Mark, I didn't know necessarily Mark was gonna be here, mark. Who was an extraordinary writer who wrote The Wolf, who Cried Boy, uh, was um, which is one of my books of the year, um, was also such. A very particular joy, um, and, and insight giver in the drafting process for this and differently to what I may have done before is now I choose really carefully who I'm gonna get to do reads for me, and it's for really specific purposes. So the fact that Mark and Haley both agreed to do it, I was looking for people who understood the genre. Um, particularly Mark's screenwriting background as well. So those were, so, I, I just wanna Yeah, just acknowledge that Mark, how influential you were, uh, in, in helping this book get to its final place.
Madeleine Cleary (2):Oh, and I'm just gonna echo that as well. I was completely stuck in my book two or book three planning, and I had a beer with Mark and then suddenly, like it was all clear again, and Mark just asks very simple questions. So maybe Mark, you need to set up some kind of service or something for writers who are,
Kate Mildenhall:Yes. A beer with Mark. That's what it is. And I think it's the asking of questions.
Speaker 2:But it also relies on the fact that I, I loved your stuff. You know, like, it, it has to be stuff that I enjoyed because they're both, um, beautiful books.
Madeleine Cleary (2):I can also echo that. The Wolf of Cried Poise. My, one of my, I think it is my top book for this year. I reckon, oh, I should say, I shouldn't say that. While we're talking about the Hiding Place,
Kate Mildenhall (2):that's okay. No, we share around.
Madeleine Cleary (2):No, they're both amazing books. We haven't talked about mushroom lady, actually, Kate, I think one of the questions that we got was about. Given the release of the the mushroom tapes around the same time as this book, what's been the reader response to that? And that's a really interesting question.
Kate Mildenhall:Yeah. So I was, I was, um, super nervous once I knew I had the death caps and when all that went and point, I think I even said to my publisher, is this in bad taste? Should I take out the, the death caps? Like, this is quite a thing. And I think even it wasn't, you know, it was already a big thing, but until the court case, it wasn't really apparent kind of. How big it was. Um, and uh, I decided that I was gonna leave them in. Um, but I did decline to write about it. You know, sometimes Madeline, mark, you'll know this too, Jack, you'll get to know this, um, that your publisher will ask you to write adjacent media articles about things for, you know, the Guardian or the monthly or whatever. Um, and I did say I will not write about. Erin Patterson borough in relation to this. And the other thing that I, at one point I had toyed with putting in the book was, was the idea of sovereign citizens. Um, and that was another one where my publisher said, oh, do you wanna write on, you know, what's happened with Jessey Freeman? And I said, no, absolutely, absolutely not. I don't, because I think that this, you know, one of the important things to me was to. Raise these, raise these issues which I care about. You know, climate, emergency, property ownership, land rights, you know, um, feral animals, all these things that are important to me. Um, but to hold it lightly this time and to not be, um, I don't feel like in my previous books I've ever been didactic, but a little bit less earnest is how I've been talking about it. That to not kind of feel like I was, um. Shifting in any way towards preachy. Uh, and so thinking that I would have to kind of, um, go from that, satirical tone to seriously looking at something like the sovereign citizen movement and, and everything related to that was too much for me. So, yeah, it's, I, I guess it's a fine line. And there are other people, you know, and if you think about things like patruda advocate or the shovel who do it. So brilliantly, and they can take that kind of stuff and they can twist it and turn it. Um, but they have far more skills than I do in that area.
Madeleine Cleary (2):No, I think that's, yeah, that makes sense. And I mean, in the end, this book, it's a really fun ripper read as well. Like it, it touches on lots of different issues that we haven't covered in this chat tonight.
Kate Mildenhall (2):I
Kate Mildenhall:love what we have covered though. That's, it's also, it's like taking a deep breath when you can actually talk about all the bits in a book, because so often, you know, you kind of. Stressed. I know, mark, you'll have had this experience too, because there's reveals in your books that you're like waiting to see if you're accidentally gonna say something, or if the interviewer is accidentally gonna say something, or you're kind of talking around in these weird circles to be able to say like, yes. So anyway, so I looked at exactly how I was gonna fall on the star picket and where the blood was gonna come out from. Like that's, that's a joy, even though it makes me look a little bit crazy.
Madeleine Cleary (2):I would've loved to have seen your Google searches as well during the.
Kate Mildenhall:Well, the other, the other, the only thing that I really declined,'cause you know, Madeline, that I quite like, um, you know, getting my hands dirty, Kind of figuratively when I'm doing my research. So I got on the yacht for the mother fault, or I went and visited the abattoir for the, for the, hummingbird Effect. The only thing that I decided was a step too far for me was to do the Acacia DMT Hallucinogenics this time. So that acacia, the hallucinogenic that comes from the acacia bark, specifically the raspberry wattle, if anyone needs to know this, that came to me from the woman who lives down the end of my street. Who is a gen, molecular genetic, something to do with biology. Um, and I said to her, I want someone in my book to grow a crop and I don't want to weed. What should they grow? And she said, have you heard about this stuff with Acacia? And I was like, okay, I'll go down that rabbit hole. And um, at various times I did kind of have meetings set up with different people. And I was like, you know what? I don't need in the middle of writing this book to just have a massive kind of hallucinogenic trip and go off my head and not be able to get back to what's really important here.
Madeleine Cleary (2):It, it might've been a very different book,
Kate Mildenhall:It could've been
Kate Mildenhall (2):a very Exactly, exactly.
Madeleine Cleary (2):Are you going camping this summer, Kate?
Kate Mildenhall (2):Yes,
Kate Mildenhall:in only two weeks. And I, I, you know, no one has put in the chat that, um, I'm not invited. I was gonna get various t-shirts, ma, you know, people within the gang have made jokes about whether we should get, you know, I'm not Phil t-shirts made or anything like that, but we're going to, um. We're going to not do that. I think it will be really amusing'cause we camp at, at quite a big camping ground. I, I think it will be very amusing if anyone else is reading the book there, that, that will be funny.
Madeleine Cleary (2):That would be amazing. I feel like there's gonna be so many jokes throughout your entire. Trip
Kate Mildenhall:Yeah. Yeah. I, yeah, I, and I mean, I've, I have brought it on myself.
Madeleine Cleary (2):Thank you so much, Kate. Thanks so much for joining us
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