The Book Deal
Motivation and inspiration for emerging writers, helping them pave their own pathway to publishing success.
The Book Deal
SUMMER SERIES Kylie Orr on competitions, writing craft, social media and letting go
Join Tina and Madeleine as they candidly discuss their paths in the writing world, from shooting author videos and exploring middle grade fiction to announcing upcoming book deals and generating new ideas. They reveal their personal writing practices, including plotting versus pantsing. Madeleine interviews Kylie Orr and they discuss the influence of social media on an author’s life and the challenges debut authors face in the publishing industry, such as managing expectations and gaining visibility. While reflecting on writer's block and finding inspiration in daily life, Kylie also celebrates the joy of seeing her books on shelves and the supportive nature of the writing community. The episode wraps up with motivational advice for aspiring authors.
00:00 Sunny Weather and Catching Up
01:05 Behind the Scenes of an Author Video Shoot
04:33 Exploring Middle Grade Books
09:10 The Journey of Writing and Publishing
21:59 From Feature Articles to Novels
35:17 Finding the Right Editor
35:54 Rewriting the Book
36:18 Entering the Richell Prize
36:57 Securing a Book Deal
38:01 The Eleventh Floor Pitch
39:30 Writing the Second Book
41:58 Insights on Agents
47:37 The Third Book
50:48 Social Media and Writing
58:35 Organizing Book Events
01:05:53 Wins and Woes
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Natasha Rai:We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals to bring you the best tips and advice on
Madeleine Cleary:how to get that elusive book deal. So no matter what's. Stage of writing your at. We've got you covered. I'm Tina Strachan I'm Madeleine Cleary. And I'm Natasha Rai And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors one deal at a time. The book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners, the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
Tina Strachan:Hello, wonderful podcast friends. I'm Tina Strachan and welcome to the summer season of the Book Deal podcast for the 25 26 years. We have had a huge year made possible by your incredible support, but it's time for Madeleine, Natasha, and I to have a little break. We have lots of writing to do, lot. Gardening, lots of family time and a fair bit of rest due to help us reset and prepare for another huge year in 2026. So over the next five weeks, we will be bringing you some of our most played eps of all time. Maybe they're ones you've not had a chance to listen to yet, or maybe you're listening for a second time and hearing new details you missed the first time. Either way, we hope you enjoy the EPS and have a magical summer break or winter break for all of our Northern Hemisphere listeners. See you soon with new episodes of the Book Deal Podcast.
Madeleine Cleary:Hey, Tina. Hi Madeleine. How are you? Oh, great. Well, just talking about how good the weather is. The weather is amazing. Yes. In both Melbourne and Gold Coast. Like that's, that's. That's great. We're both looking at sunny skies. It is great. Especially after a week of rain that we had up here, it's must be very, very tough living in Queensland. Yeah. It's hard. I wanted to ask you, cause I saw this week on your Instagram, uh, some amazing photos of you. You did a shoot and you looked gorgeous. And you also had some little friends join you as part of your shoot as well. Can you tell us about that? I did. Okay. I did. Yeah, well, um, that was super fun and something that I've been looking forward to for a couple of weeks. So that's part, that was for a, um, like an author video, it's just called, um, that, uh, the, my publisher, uh, requested. So I, cause I'm about six months out now from release date of my first book in my series. So I feel like that's when everything sort of starts happening and you kind of. Um, the publicists contact you, et cetera. So, um, one of the things they've asked for is an author video and they use that to send to, um, booksellers, um, mostly to, uh, when they're going around trying to sell you. sell your book into, into the, into the stores. And um, yeah, so that was really fun because I've got lots of animals in my book, uh, because it's based in a zoo. Um, I just thought it'd be very appropriate to have some animals in my author video. Absolutely. I think it's so special. No one else is going to be able to pull that out. I don't think there are videos. It's very memorable. Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully. Yeah. Well, I actually wasn't too sure. I did ask them first because I thought, Oh, well maybe it would be too distracting, you know, take away from, you know, You? Me. Yeah, talking about. So it's just like introduce yourself, introduce your book. What's the, um, you know, what was the motivation to write the book, um, and why, who, who would enjoy reading it and why you wanted to write it, et cetera. Um, so I wasn't sure if that was going to detract from it. Um, but it was a very good excuse to play with some animals again and get my little fuzzy fix. But I also had, um, quite a few animals. There was a snake and a, and a black cockatoo, and I even had a pet. And, um, so beautiful ringtail possum. So I just kept saying my spiel over and over and over while I had the animals. Cause you know, when you work with animals, anything can happen. Uh, so I just kept saying it over and over and just like, we'll just keep going. We'll let the animals do their thing. And hopefully we have. something at the end so that we can use. So yes, little pom pom, um, the ringtail possum was the one that we went with because she was beautiful and there's a beautiful ringtail possum in my book and there's like a, because it's middle grade and it has lots of illustrations, there's a beautiful illustration of a ringtail in there as well that looked just like her. Um, so yeah, that was with um, Wild Call um, wildlife. They were very amazing and helped me out for the day. So that was, that was so fun. So hopefully I get to work with them a little bit more, but so that's all the video. Do you have, will you be doing one too, probably? You just, um, I'm not, I'm not too sure at the moment, but I just wanted to say one thing though on that, Tina, if you can see Stand and pitch your book with a snake right next to your face. I feel like you can pitch it anywhere, like that is next level. Oh, it was a beautiful snake too. Yeah, so, but it was cool because now I've got like a, um, yeah, a whole heap of video and some photos and stuff with them all, so it was beautiful, yeah. Yeah, that's exciting. So I've had a few, um, things come through from listeners, actually, some feedback. Um, and so one of the questions, and these are actually people who are not not necessarily writers, but they're readers and they're really keen to, you know, what is middle grade, Tina? Oh, okay. Middle grade. So is a, I guess, a category for children. Um, That is usually classified between like, you could call it 8 so that often, so because kids, they like to read up, so they, as in, the character, the main characters, they like them to be a few years older than them, they don't like to read down or even their same, they like to read up a couple of years, so, so, It's like eight plus is this category. And so, you know, my books, the characters are 11 and they can probably go up to 12, but once they become teenagers, it's often moving into young adult. Then, um, yeah, so, you know, there's a bit of a, yeah, if they're 13, it's kind of really bordering. And sometimes they, you can see them in middle grade, but then they're sort of pushing that boundary to, to young adults. New things emerging when you're turning 12 and 13 that might not necessarily be dealt with in middle grade, but of course they might as well. Yeah. And when you're 13, you're in high school. So that is, you know, high school kids, it's a whole different thing. And eight year olds, you know, reading about high school life is probably not ideal. So that's when it just sort of shifts that category. Um, but you know, there's always exceptions to the rule, but that is what middle grade is. Interesting. And I've also had other people say to me, Tina's amazing. She's got three books coming out next year. How many words are in each book? Yes. So middle grade, normally like the sweet spots about, um, about 40, 000. Words? Um. That's still, that's a lot. Yeah, so it's two hundred and forty Pages. Yes. And. Including illustrations as well in that too. Including illustrations. You've got the cover there. Can you show us the cover? Yes, I can. I mean, sorry for everyone who's listening on, like, without video, but, um. We'll try and describe it. And when are you going to reveal it on, you have to put it up on social media soon. Yes, I will. Very soon. I'm just gonna, cause I, you know, I have gone through it because you know when you It doesn't matter how many times you read some your work, you'll always find something you want to change. And I've been trying not to do that because you know, this is, so I have got my arc. That was the other very exciting thing. That's happened recently. The arc everyone is the uncorrected proof. Oh my goodness. All right. So shall I describe it? Yeah, you can describe it. Okay. So, um, there's this beautiful sort of sign archway saying wild zoo, and then underneath it says Nika and the missing key. And there's a gorgeous girl and she's got brown hair and brown eyes and she's holding, is that like a little Joey in there? Yep. It's a joey kangaroo. It's a little joey kangaroo in her knapsack. Because she lives in a zoo. Oh my gosh. That is so beautiful. And it's this gorgeous, glossy, beautiful. The illustrations are stunning. Amazing. She's done such a good job. It's a little wraparound cover as well. So yes, it's very exciting. It's amazing just to hold it like in my hands. And it's, uh. It's a real thing. It's a real thing. All that work and effort over years and years. Yes. Very, very exciting. Very, very cool. So yeah, so that's the ARC, which we spoke about in the last, um, in our last episode. So advanced reading copy that also gets sent out to booksellers and reviewers. And also it does give you that opportunity to see it in print, um, and if yeah, there is any inaccuracies that, that you need to correct. So yes. So exciting. So yeah, so it is quite thick. So 240 pages. Um, and so you've, you've got to do three of those this next year. Yes. Um, yes. So, you know, three of them, three together is quite, quite a lot of words, really. Isn't it? It is. It's significant. It's massive. Well, I, I think it's amazing. Like you work so hard and everyone Telling me that like, oh, Tina's sounds great. And she just must be working so hard. I'm like, yes, she is. Yes, but so are you Madeleine, as are all authors, especially, you know, in the lead up to debut books coming out. Absolutely. Which we both are. Absolutely. That's kind of my, um, that's basically what I've, my updates for the last couple of weeks. What about you, Madeleine? We need an update from you. Um, yeah, so very exciting. Um, so my publicist contacted me last week and said, um, we're going to announce the, the deal in books and publishing, which is, I think the industry rag, um, that all sort of everyone reads and, uh, whether you're a bookseller or an agent or a publisher, um, it's, yeah, something that we all like to look at. Um, even though I signed the deal over a year ago, I think they prefer to. So I'm going to announce it close to the publication date. So mine will be in another eight months, um, just to sort of keep the hype and, and generate a bit more interest. Otherwise people are going to forget if they, if we released it a year ago. So that was really exciting. I didn't know when it was going to be released. So did you open your emails and see it in there or did someone send it to you? Well, I think one of, uh, so Nadia from the Daybrew crew, she was the first one that found it. She found it two minutes after the email was sent. She was, she was, I didn't actually see that comment. So I was just like looking through my emails at lunchtime and then I just checked it and saw my face. I was like, Oh, Oh, this is exciting. So yeah, I don't know. It's just like, it's, it's, it feels quite exciting. So I had so many people reach out and it was really lovely. So yeah, that was, that was fun. It's nice. Um, but yeah, other than that, um, I've, I've been just relaxing the last week cause I handed in my edits. I'm not sure if I told you that, did I? Is that a yes. Yeah. So I handed that in about a week ago, a week and a half ago and felt very, very relieved doing that. Um, after doing that big sort of read through, um, and so recovery time, I think, don't you? Because your brain's just been working over time and you absolutely like it. So yeah, having a full recovery. Afterwards to, yeah, just kind of get back, get back on track with everything else that you've put off during that time and also give your brain a little bit of a break. Yeah, the garden, pulling out lots of weeds. That's what I've been doing and it's been really lovely. But, um, I, I don't know, Tina, and you're probably very similar. I think, um, I find like I'm turning my brain off, but I'm also thinking of new ideas and that's getting me really excited. So I've come up with a new idea for a new book that I really want to start. It's a really fun project, but I just can't, I'm just trying to keep that on the back burner, because I'm worried if I embark upon that, I'm just gonna get a little bit distracted. So do you, when you get those ideas in your mind though, are you writing them down or are you just keeping them in? Oh, absolutely. So you're writing it all down. So it's there for when you're ready. So it popped into my brain, uh, on a train in Romania, going through Transylvania. Perfect. And I just decided I'll just spend the two hour train journey, just sitting and looking out at the beautiful Transylvanian mountains instead of like listening to music or listening to a podcast and just to let my brain set. So I had about two and a half hour train ride. And I reckon on hour two. My brain just became super creative. It took a while, um, and then, yeah, it just switched. And so then I just had the whole concept of how the novel would begin. And yeah, so I'm excited. Were you sitting there with a pen and paper? Can I ask? Just because I feel like when I sit there with a pen and paper, it's almost like it's this connection from my brain to my hand, to the paper. And if I, and that's when it starts. coming, like flowing a little bit. Oh, that's interesting. Is that how you get your, oh, no, I just stare. And then I quickly jot down a few weird words in my phone. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Well, whatever, if you don't have pen and paper, definitely you need to just get anywhere in your phone. I'm the same. I have a Thousand notes that make probably no sense, but one day I'll go back to them. It would be good one, one day you should publish those random notes and everyone I'll be like, look at the brilliance of the God, maybe, but I think that's really important what you said. And, um, you know, unfortunately we can't all be on a two and a half, you know, hour train ride through Romania. But, um, do you find that even just going for a walk around the block? Or a couple of blocks. Or, um, going for a drive? I actually Um, like going for a drive and do voicemail messages into my phone, um, you know, cause safety first while driving and, um, yeah, or just finding that bit of space and sitting where you're not distracted by other things to get those ideas flowing. Agreed. Agreed. And if I'm ever stuck in a scene where I don't have a solution. Even, I don't even have to go for a walk around the block. I just need to get up and make myself a cup of tea or something while I'm waiting for the kettle. I just pace a little bit and then I'm like, Oh, found it. And often it's like, do you find in the shower as well? Cause you're doing something repetitive and you can't have your phone with you or anything else. And then suddenly your brain just finds all these solutions. The problem is you, you're in the shower. You can't like get out and start getting on your phone and writing things down. We need like a, like a recorder in the shower, I think, so you can start. Or a whiteboard. Or, my kids have these, um, crayons, bath crayons. They just roll all over the wall with it. So really, Um, maybe you need to get yourself some of them and just draw on the wall. It would look like the visionary of a madman or something, like all these like red scrolls riding in the bath, shower. Yes, there's a, there's an awesome children's author called Nat Amor who also talks about getting her ideas. I think it's quite common. I think it's, I reckon it's a common thing, but also I think writers are always good walkers because that's a nice way for your mind to switch off. Yeah. It sounds like that's where, what you do. Yeah. If it's not flowing or, you know, sometimes just staring at the wall, you know, often with the computer open because you're hoping that the ideas will somehow flow onto the, into the computer. But yeah, it is just about. Even when you don't think anything is there and you have no ideas and no suggestions. It is just about even going for that walk and something triggering you, a dog or a bird or, you know, a kid or something triggers you and it just, you just have to sit with it, doesn't it? And there's always, I think the, the, the brilliant thing about it and you have to keep telling yourself is I've always been able to find just solution.
Kylie Orr:So
Madeleine Cleary:even if you've come across a problem, you're like, I'm never going to get over this. That's not going to be helpful. You just have to go. No, it'll come. You just have to sit with it. It's so true. But in that moment, Hey, when you, you were like, this is, I can't fix this. This is terrible. And, but it does. And I think you do have to do it. a few times to realize, no, you can, you do always find your way out of it and you do always find a way to fix the, you know, the plot issue or whatever it was that was getting you stumped. But it's so true that you say that because that even happened with my third book, the last book that I handed into my publisher. I literally pulled it all apart the week before it was due on
Kylie Orr:my
Madeleine Cleary:Fijian holiday. Getting up at 3am. Great time to do it. Um, but yeah, You know, and I was just like, this is an absolute mess, I'm never going to get to the end of it. And I was trying to say to myself, no, but you, you know, you know, this has happened before and you know, you can get through to the end. Um, and when you get there, you'll be like, oh, that's right. I knew that all along. It's such a mind game, isn't it? It is. It is. Do you find now, after having written three plus books, that when you're, oh, I should actually ask you, are you a plotter or a painter? Um, I think I change all the time. Um, and I was a, I started as a pants up. Should we explain what that is to anyone? It doesn't. Yes. Yeah. So pants up. You see, you're right on the seat of your pants. You have no idea what's around the corner or you might only know what's just around the corner. Yeah. You, you plot it out. You're plotting. And I think there's differing levels of all of that. of those two things. Um, and then there's Plantsa, which is when you're in the middle. Oh, I've heard of this. But I think they're different. I think they're different. Um, like there's different levels and, and for people, but I used to pants and I just, I wrote a whole, a whole book pantsing it, but there is a point, you know, where you do go back and you, and you editing and that's all part of plotting. And, and I think if you don't plot first, you just have to edit. And you end up sort of doing, kind of doing it anyway. And then I, I mean, my brain is, um, loves, um, a good, you know, spreadsheet and it loves the math. It loves the math of writing. So I love story grid and, um, save the cat. And I don't know any of these. Oh, we're going to have to do an episode on tools, I think. I have actually created a mush of the two. Really? So it's because I, it is so satisfying. So there's a manuscript that I'm working on at the moment, which I'm really plotting. But I think it's all, some people would also call it, You have zero draft of pantsing, but like, I'm literally plotting in Scrivener every single chapter and then making, and then I keep checking back to make sure that I'm hitting like the mathematical equations of where things technically are supposed to happen in Storygrid and Save the Cat. And I have to say, when, when you plot something out and then you go and check it to these math, you know, kind of the maths behind what makes. a good story, or in a good plot, and it actually hits it because you've just done it innately anyway. That is, that is glorious for me. I love that. Oh my gosh. Let's do a whole other episode on the math of writing. Um, because yeah, some people hate that sort of thing, but I, I love it. I've okay. I've never heard of it. Save the cat or what was the other one? Story grid. Story grid. Never heard of it. Heard of, I've heard of Scrivener, but never used it, but I've heard that you can't go back when you start with going down Scrivener. Um, I am old fashioned. I use Word. Do you? Yep. And then my, um, editor, she gave me a spreadsheet where she kind of tracks the plot things that happened on the plot. Aha, see. She gave me that. I was like, Oh, this is really how it's the math. Yep. It was just in my head. Otherwise, cause I'm a full panther. I was going to say you're clearly a panther then if, if, yeah, no idea about structure. I just was like, yeah, throw it all in and see what happens. And now I'm, well, this is why I'm on my third structural edit. So yeah. Oh, I don't know. Yeah. Perhaps. Well, let's, let's chat about story grid another time. I think that's. That's good. And listeners as well. If you do want to hear about this, let us know as well on our Instagram, if this is not something you want us to talk about. I mean, I'm very, very interested, but I'm curious to see if other writers are interested as well. Would you like an episode where Tina tries to convince Madeleine that the math in the writing is the best? Awesome. Fun. My maths teacher would be so happy about this. She was always trying to convince me why maths was important, even though I was a very English kind of minded person. So, all right, we'll leave that for another episode. Kylie Orr is an author of dark and twisty contemporary fiction. Her debut novel, Someone Else's Child, was long listed in the Rochelle Prize and published by HarperCollins in 2022. Her second novel, The Eleventh Floor, hit shelves in February this year, was chosen as an Apple Books Must Read and Book of the Week in the Age and Affiliate newspapers nationally. Last year, when I was a wide eyed and freshly signed author, I met Kylie and found her to be wonderfully warm, kind, and generous. I think you'll find the same when you listen to our discussion, as we talk competitions, agents, wins and woes, and much, much more. Kylie Orr, welcome to the Book Deal Podcast. Thank you for having me. I'm excited. Yay! And congratulations too on your amazing two novels, which I have with me here, um, which I have to say I absolutely loved and absolutely consumed them. So thank
Kylie Orr:you. You do have to say that because you can't sit in front of me and say they're terrible, but you can say that off camera.
Madeleine Cleary:Genuinely love them everyone. So please, please do pick them up. I'm also personally so excited to have you on board because I've attended some of your events in person and I know you have some absolutely wonderful insights to share with us. Um, but before we jump into all of the things. I just want to find out a little bit more about your writing process before you were published, because I know you were writing feature articles for 20 years for many different media outlets before you published your first novel. So for you, do you think writing a novel was the next logical step?
Kylie Orr:Um, gee, when you say 20 years, it makes me sound really old, doesn't it? Uh, no, it was not the next logical step. I had never intended to write a novel. I wanted to write children's books. And so I was part of a children's book, um, writers group at the library. And so that's where my energy was concentrated. And I also had young children at the time. So I was reading lots of children's books, wondering how the hell did this rubbish get published? And of course I can do it better than they can, uh, found out I can't do it better than they can. Um, but I was writing, yeah, 800 word features for the age and daily life and essential baby. And I actually had. An editor from pan Macmillan checked me on LinkedIn. How does that happen, Kylie? That's amazing. It's like, I liken it to being a waitress in New York, who's like desperate to break into Hollywood. And I mean, not New York, I don't know, anyway, in LA and then I don't know, they get approached and say, you'd be great as the lead actor in this amazing blockbuster anyway, happened like that. Wow. She emailed and said she'd read some of my articles and she thought I had a good voice for women's fiction. And did I have any gems lying in my bottom drawer? And I was kind of like, gosh, that's a weird email to get. Hold my writers group and just kind of shrugged it off. Like, well, I'm not going to write a novel. So I'm just probably going to say no. And they were like, are you crazy? Nobody ever emails you to ask, have you got a book? Just say yes. And I was like, but I don't, they're like, make something up. So I made up two synopses. One was funny and one was someone else's child. And she said, I like the sound of the funny one, but nobody buys funny books. I don't believe that. I'm well, that was back way, way when before COVID and now everybody buys funny books because life is heavy. Uh, anyway, so she said, give me the first 20, 000 words of someone else's child. And I had no idea how to write a novel. So I. Sat down and tried to start this novel that I did not plan and my husband who works in IT that you just met because we had some sound difficulties at the start of this, uh, he said to me, just start at the start. I'm like, wow, that is super unhelpful. Start at the start. I don't know where the start is. Anyway, I managed to cobble together 20, 000 words, sent it to her. It went to an acquisitions meeting, which I'm sure you will explain to your listeners at some point, if they don't already know, and it fell down. It fell down at acquisitions, and then I did not hear from her again, ever. Wow. Uh, so yeah, that was a bit of a shock to the system, but then I was determined that I was going to write this novel to the end just to prove to myself that I could.
Madeleine Cleary:Amazing. 20, 000 words though, how do you go from zero to 20, 000? With great difficulty.
Kylie Orr:Let me tell you, I banged my head on the keyboard. I started at different points and I'm like, no, that doesn't work. That doesn't work. And because I'd never written a novel, I just sort of approached it like, you know, each I'd written some short stories. So I was like, maybe each chapter can just be like a short story. And then I just connect the short stories. Doesn't work like that either. So yes, I, I go back and look at what I sent her and it was terrible. Any wonder it fell down acquisitions, but I didn't know what I was doing. So,
Madeleine Cleary:but also incredible that she took 20, 000 words to acquisitions, because I don't think I've ever heard that before. That's, that's quite significant. So obviously you, you have that talent, the, the, the writing talent, you, you understand women's voice. What do you think that means in practice? What, what does women's voice mean?
Kylie Orr:I don't know. It's not a conscious thing. I mean, I, I am a woman and I have a voice and I have opinions and I guess maybe it comes through in my writing. I don't know. I think when I wrote for Essential Baby, um, you know, I was having children at the time and ended up with four of them. I mean, I didn't end up with them. I did choose to have them. I just appeared on my doorstep, but, um, I think I just was trying to take a more honest, lighthearted approach to parenting, because I just felt like everything was telling you how you should be doing it, and I actually just wanted to tell the reality of it. And so perhaps that authenticity was attractive at the time, and maybe it just kind of filled a gap that wasn't quite there. Unfortunately, I was not able to translate that to a novel at that stage. So yeah, it is, and I think taking a part manuscript. Acquisitions, particularly for someone who's never written a novel or a debut is. highly unlikely to get up. But it was nice because she actually planted the seed in my head. Maybe I do want to write a novel. Maybe I do have something to say. And in novels, particularly domestic suspense, you can talk about much broader themes than you can in a children's book.
Madeleine Cleary:Do you still have that synopsis, the funny novel, sitting in your drawer? I
Kylie Orr:do. And I did because I have, at my events, I have a lot of people actually, every single event I've done, somebody in the audience has said, Would you ever write a funny book? Cause you're pretty funny. And when I say that, I hate it. Cause then people are like, well, where's, where's all the funny? How come she's not that funny? Um, my family don't think I'm funny. They don't laugh at anything, but I have teenagers, so they're never going to laugh. Unless they're laughing at me rather than with me. So yeah, I did pull it out and try, tried, but I don't know, my head just is, it just diverts to dark themes.
Madeleine Cleary:Okay. So, so you've, you've got this rejection from Pagan Macmillan, um, but it's a great step first step, I think, in, in knowing that you, you can go and do this. So what, what do you do then? What are you, what did you then sit down and go, I want to, we want to finish the novel, but then what's the next step?
Kylie Orr:Just googled. How do you write a novel? And then I was like reading everything doing little mini courses. I enrolled in short courses. I just tried to practice writing, writing. And then I I can't remember which order it was in. I won a scholarship to Fiona McIntosh's Um, commercial fiction masterclass, which is amazing. Like I cried when I got the phone call, must've thought I was unhinged because my dad was actually very sick at the time he was dying of cancer and it was very hard to invest emotional energy into writing, but I was trying to sort of do it, you know, I was at four little kids. My youngest had just started school. So I was trying to use that year as a year to really sink my teeth into this idea. And, um, so when I got the scholarship, it kind of confirmed to me that there was something in this story that was worth pursuing. And then I, luckily, cause I won the scholarship, I didn't have to pay to go. But then when I got back, I wanted to make sure I could write the book to the end. So I paid for a mentorship with Catherine Heyman, who's an Australian author. And that was a six month mentorship where I had to give her 10, 000 words every month. And then we'd have an hour Zoom at the end of the month. So incredible. Yeah, I sort of had this tutorage that she didn't teach me how to write, but she gave me deadlines. And then we spoke about what needed to happen in that chapter. What all that 10, 000 words, what I needed to fix and just exploring character and stuff. So it sort of helped me learn how to write a book to the end. And the rest was just many, many years of editing and trial and error. Uh, and yeah, it took from the, the seed of an idea that I sent to that Pam McMillan editor. To the time my book hit a shelf was seven years,
Madeleine Cleary:seven years, and a lot of investment financially in that as well,
Kylie Orr:which is also very hard to justify when you're not earning a massive income. I was trying to do freelance writing around it and you know, that was not bringing in a lot of cash. And thankfully my husband was very supportive because he runs his own business that I 20 years. And I've been the main carer and, you know, Put a lot of free energy and hours into supporting his work and he is like, well, now it's your turn. So that's nice. But, you feel a bit
Madeleine Cleary:of pressure in that then as well? So you've obviously supported him and then he's now supporting you through that seven year journey. Did you feel the pressure to, to, to really get the contract?
Kylie Orr:Uh, not from him at all, but pressure from myself. Like I, you know, I've, I've quite stressed and frustrated about not being. Making much money and then having to invest money to learn this new skill. Um, which I guess is like an apprenticeship, you know, it's like any new job, you've got to train yourself to do it. Um, but there's no guarantee at the end of this one, that's the difference. I mean, train for a new job and then apply for jobs and hopefully get a job. But in publishing, it doesn't work like that. So no, it
Madeleine Cleary:doesn't. And thankfully it did work out for you. So when you did type the end though, of someone else's child, your debut novel. So what, what do you do then? How do you approach, when do you know when it's ready? And when do you go out into the world with it?
Kylie Orr:Well, I don't think you know, I know for sure. Now looking back, it's never ready after one draft. Please don't ever, ever send your manuscript out after one draft. It is not ready. Um, so I redrafted it many times. I had some people close to me read it. So, I have a sister in law who's a GP, so she's great. She's an avid reader, but also she gives me medical stuff.
Madeleine Cleary:And there's a reason for that, everybody, that it's why it would be important to have a GP in this, but we won't give out spoilers. Correct.
Kylie Orr:In both my books, actually. And I have a friend who's a police officer. So she reads it for, you know, police, it's not a police procedural, but, you know, just to make sure I'm using the right titles and whatever, she's very
Madeleine Cleary:helpful.
Kylie Orr:And then I have a cousin who is. Um, a social worker, um, and an avid reader. And so I got a few people to read it and give me feedback and then I decided I didn't know what to do next. I'd tried to, I'd sent it out to a few and just got radio silence. And then, um. To publishers or to agents
Madeleine Cleary:initially? To publishers initially. Mm hmm.
Kylie Orr:And Fiona McIntosh helped me with one of the submissions, and I got a pretty brutal rejection that way, and I remember crying on my keyboard. I got it on like a Friday night. My husband was away for work, and I had to take my sons to their football training. And I read the email and just was sobbing onto my keyboard and my eldest son, who was like, I don't know, he might've been 10 at the time. He came and just kind of patted me on the back and said, it's all right, mum. And he's like, what's wrong? I said, they don't like my story. And he was like, it's okay, somebody will like it.
Madeleine Cleary:Oh, isn't it so nice to have children who can go and comfort you in that moment? I know! That's very beautiful. Um,
Kylie Orr:yeah, so I had so many rejections and then I entered the ritual prize. And it is called the Ritual Prize. I have double checked this. Not the Rochelle. It's Ritual. Lots of people say Rochelle, but it's named after Matt Ritual. Yes. Yes. Hannah was married to Matt. And so I actually checked directly with her in a tweet. Does it rhyme with Michelle or Mitchell? Um, anyway, I had entered the Ritual Prize the year before and got nothing with a different manuscript. Um, and then I thought, oh, well, this one's just sitting here. Let's just send it and see what happens. Nothing happened last time. What have I got to lose?
Madeleine Cleary:And the ritual prize, correct me if I'm wrong, it's just the first three chapters, isn't it? And then you've got the synopsis for the rest of the novel. Is that right?
Kylie Orr:Correct. And it's for emerging, uh, unpublished authors. Perfect. Um, so yes, I thought, oh, well, it gives me a deadline. I like deadlines and I, I tried to enter different competitions just to keep my writing muscle going and sometimes it would just be like a short story competition. So I just, if this manuscript was driving me nuts, I would go and try to just write a short story and then enter a short story competition and you know, it didn't get recognition in many, many of them got shortlisted in some and uh, anyway, so I sent this off to the Sorry, before that, I had paid an external editor. So after I got my brutal rejection, um, it was originally written from three points of view and I think it just wasn't working and the brutal rejection really cut deep, but I didn't want to give up on it. And so I decided to pay an editor. I think it was 1, 500 at the time. Again, I Well, there's a lot of money that you don't have, that you're not earning
Madeleine Cleary:with no guarantee at the end.
Kylie Orr:Correct. But I just didn't know what to do after that. I didn't know how to make it better. I knew it wasn't working, but I didn't know how to fix it. And so I paid this editor who was fantastic. She gave me an 11 page report.
Madeleine Cleary:Wow.
Kylie Orr:How did you find the editor as well? I asked around for some referrals and this particular editor, she said, well, you know, I think she used to work for one of the big publishers, but now she's like freelance and contracts back. And she like had edited Liane Moriarty and Wow. Oh yeah. What an opportunity. She's, she's it. Um, and she was fabulous and told me the three points of view are not working. You either need to, I mean, very delicately, she didn't say it as directors are, but she just said, you either need to develop two of the The three characters more, or you need to rewrite it from this one character whose voice is strong. So I rewrote the whole thing from one point of view. It was a nightmare. I didn't even know, I didn't even understand how, like, you know, if there's a scene and that particular character was not in that scene. How was I supposed to rewrite that scene if she's not even in the room? So yeah, it was a bit of a mind boggle. Huge. Massive,
Madeleine Cleary:massive
Kylie Orr:structural
Madeleine Cleary:change.
Kylie Orr:But a better book for it. And that's what I entered into the Ritual Prize and I was long listed. Didn't know. Like when I entered the Ritual Prize the first time, I was like manifesting, I put it in my diary the day it was announced, I was visualizing my name on a long list. Never happened. None of it happened. And then the second time, I entered and forgot about it. And then started getting all these phone calls on this day, had all these missed calls and I was like, what's going on? And yeah, one of my friends rang and he said, you're on the long list for the ritual prize. And so I pulled over to the side of the road and had a cry because I knew this would be where it all changes. So yeah, that got me an agent. And that agent started pitching my work in March, 2020.
Madeleine Cleary:An amazing time for the publishing industry. Honestly. Well timed, Kylie.
Kylie Orr:Shocking, shocking timing. Anyway, so yes, then went on to get many more rejections and finally secured a two book deal with HQ Fiction HarperCollins in October 2020.
Madeleine Cleary:Amazing. What an incredible story. And so this was what, about eight, seven, eight years worth of work.
Kylie Orr:I think it was like five years by that time, and then it didn't hit shelves until June 2022. So like another 18 months later. Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary:Before I even saw the book on the shelf. After going through all of those different structural edits and editing, going through the process. But. Here it is. Here it is. So exciting. It was originally
Kylie Orr:called The Fundraiser, so clearly I'm not good at titles. Oh, I can
Madeleine Cleary:see that. Yeah, someone else's child. And I know that you've always said as well that you never expected to have a pink, a pink spine. But I think it's a beautiful cover. It is a gorgeous cover. Yeah. Amazing. So, um, I thought, given The Eleventh Floor, which is your latest novel, um, which was released in January this year. Yep. Yep. This is something that, um, all authors absolutely love to do, uh, is pitch their novel. Do they? They absolutely love it. It's their favourite part of every, every interview. Um, now it's been about, uh, six or seven months since it's been released, so I'm not sure how many times you've been pitching it since then. But would you, Kylie Orr, please pitch your book, The Eleventh Law, to us?
Kylie Orr:Sure, I can. Uh, it's about Gracie, who's a tired mum of a young baby, and she is not coping. Her husband encourages her to have one night in a hotel, just where she can rest and rejuvenate, just by herself. So he stays home with the baby, she goes to the hotel with the intention of Ordering room service and, you know, sleeping in instead, she goes to a rooftop bar and has a cocktail and meets a man and she ends up in his room and she can't remember how she got there. And then when she wakes and she's shocked, she decides to sneak out. But as she sneaks out, she witnesses a crime. And so. Reporting what she saw will jeopardize her marriage, but staying silent might cost somebody else their life.
Madeleine Cleary:So
Kylie Orr:she's in this dilemma.
Madeleine Cleary:Amazing. Well done. Great pitch. Um, highly recommend everyone read this book, um, get a copy. It's fantastic. And so interesting. Did you find the writing process of writing the sec, your second book different to someone else's child? Did you feel more confident?
Kylie Orr:Look, when my first book was getting rejected, the advice I got was to move on to another book, start writing something else, which I was super offended by at the time, because I felt like I was giving up on this first book. Um, but it was good advice because it got my headspace out of that constant rumination about why I was getting rejected and whatever. Um, and so I had started writing the second one and tried really hard to do a better job of planning because obviously the first book was my apprenticeship book. I had no idea what I was doing. It was so messy and chaotic and it took me ages to just figure it out. The editing process was awful. So the second book, I thought I'm going to approach this differently. I'm going to try and plan. And I did. Do a very, very vague plan, but ultimately it's just not how I write. And so I'd liken it to sort of tossing all the parts of an IKEA cabinet on the floor and trying to piece it together without instructions. And sometimes you're missing screws and it's a bit wonky. Um, I think with the second book, and now that I've written the third, I just trust my intuition more. So if something's not working, I don't, it doesn't stop me. I just go, yeah, well, that's not working and we're just going to have to fix that later. And I know that editing is actually where the magic happens. So we, we will fix it later. Um, but, and I, I am confident enough in myself that I can rework something now because I have written a whole book to start messiest way possible and managed to get it to a polished book at the end.
Madeleine Cleary:And so, um, with your third book, have you given it out to your, do you still give it out to your family and friends? The, so you've got your friend who's the GP and friend who's a police officer, or do you now, is it now something between you and, and your publisher or now with your agent?
Kylie Orr:Uh, I still give it to the GP. I'm not sure if I've given this one to the police officer. I can't remember probably less. So, and I do have a couple of, um, midwife scenes and I also have a sister in law who's a midwife. You know,
Madeleine Cleary:everybody. I have
Kylie Orr:sent her just those chapters to double check that that's all, you know, kosher. Um, I do have some good contacts. I've got a lawyer, a friend who's a lawyer. So she has helped me with a few things as well. So it is currently with, uh, my agent.
Madeleine Cleary:So let's talk about your agent actually. So this is very recent and exciting news. Um, so do you want to tell us about what you announced last week?
Kylie Orr:Sure. I have signed with Zeitgeist Agency with Samuel Bernard. Very excited. So I did have different agents for the first two books, but we went in different directions. And then I was un agented, un agented, that's hard to say, for a while and was in two minds about whether I, because I already have an established relationship with my publisher. Um, and, um, And also I had nothing to offer a new agent because I got a two book deal under one agent and then, um, we parted ways and then I really needed to write a new book to have a new agent be interested. So yes, Samuel is very enthusiastic and driven and very insightful with his edits. So it's, I'm actually just in love with him. Oh, it's not, it's not in front of me. I, um, I'm in final sort of editing stage before I give it to him, but this is kind of how I print, like I literally print out.
Madeleine Cleary:So for those just listening online, um, listening, Kylie's just held up a massive printed out manuscript that's been nicely bound as well. Yeah. Look at all, and it's covered in lots of markings. So I go, I do manual edits because
Kylie Orr:when I'm trying to keep the whole book in my head, I find it really hard to do that online, like in Word or whatever. So if I can read the whole thing as one, that means I remember that I already mentioned that in chapter two, now I've mentioned it again in chapter 11, I need to get rid of that. Whereas when you're just editing in little bits and pieces, sometimes you can't hold it all in your head. So I do have the final printed out copy that I'm. Doing manual edits and then I will fix it in Word and send it to Samuel next week. And then hopefully we'll start. Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary:I'm interested to know, where did you, so obviously you landed on the side of, yep, you wanted to be an agent and author. How did you come to that decision? Because it's, it's always a tricky one, a balance, I think, particularly for those starting out in the industry, the question is, do you apply for. to agents first, or do you go directly to Australian, to publishers? Cause I know in the Australian industry, you don't have to have an agent to approach publishers. So what, what, what do you think, what's your advice, Kylie?
Kylie Orr:Look, I think for me, I had tried. Prior to getting my first agent, I'd tried, I'd approached publishers and was getting nowhere. So then, but also it's a tricky balance because if you, our industry is quite small here. So if I approach all the big publishers and some of the little ones and they all say no, and then I go to an agent, you've left the agent not very many options to pitch your work.
Madeleine Cleary:That's good insight.
Kylie Orr:People change, people move on from jobs and, you know, ultimately it's the person reading it who has to fall in love with it. And those people do move on and switch between publishers and go into other jobs. So it's not that it's forever, like you've done your dash. But, um, I think to me, an agent just has insights, established relationships. I mean, you can do all this yourself. That's hardly. You know, an option, but you have to wait for a publisher to open their submissions. Then you have to kind of research what they're looking for. You've really got to cater your pitch. Like you're writing a resume for a job. You can't just send a blanket, you know, you, you want to cater it. And each publisher will ask for something different. They might ask for the first 10, 000 words. They might ask for the first three chapters. They might, you know, you have to do a query letter, all those things that we spend hours and hours on, if you actually are serious about getting your work published and I had. Done all of that, but it wasn't working. And so an agent to me just has an inroads and obviously they also know which editor likes this kind of genre, this style. I think this will be a great fit for so and so. We don't know that as writers, especially as aspiring writers. Yes. Um, so to me, and also. You, you know, pay a fee, like they take 15%, but they also do a lot of free work at the start. They're reading a lot of manuscripts there. Um, and to me, 15 percent of something is better than no percent of nothing. So I, and also I think, I mean, an agent is like a publisher. You've got to find the right fit. And I think Samuel is a good fit for me because he understands the way I work. I like clear communication. I don't, I'm not great with, um, Lack of transparency, like I would much rather have the information, even if it's bad, and then just work with that, then try and have someone sort of, you know, keep me a little bit in the dark because they don't want to upset me. I just want to know, just tell me, like if something's not working or whatever. Um, so in the end, and also he has worked very hard to, you know, Do you, do you want me to pitch you for this festival? Do I, and I wasn't even represented by him at the time. So it was already showing me that he was champion. So that to me was enough to say, yeah, and also he's fairly new to the agency, which means he's, he's hungry, like he wants to build his list. He's passionate and he knows he's got the guidance of experienced agents and yeah, it seemed like a no brainer, but it took me six months to decide that.
Madeleine Cleary:Well, I think it's really exciting, Kylie, and I can't wait to find out. Are you allowed to tell us a little bit about your third book or is that under wraps at the moment? Yeah, I can tell you. I mean, I
Kylie Orr:haven't sorted out the elevator pitch. Um, I'll tell you what inspired it. It's about coercive control, which I know is a pretty hefty topic, but all of my books have fairly hefty topics in them. Um, I saw that there was A domestic violence service in Ringwood, which is the southeastern suburbs of Melbourne. And I know there's many of these spotted around, but they were doing a training program for hairdressers and beauticians in spotting the signs of coercive control and domestic violence. Not as a way to tell hairdressers and beauticians how to intervene, but as a source to refer Um, resources, and I just thought that was such good thinking outside the box. I mean, domestic violence is such a massive issue. Women's safety, you know, and what we're learning, especially from Jess Hill, see what you made me do, um, is it all starts back at coercive control. So I was just so intrigued by the idea of, you know, You know, an intelligent, you know, educated woman falling for a charming man, and then getting stuck in this situation that is just sort of, you know, quietly undermining her and then feeling in a way like she couldn't get out. And I, I think that if you write it in fiction, to me, the hope is that somebody will read it and recognize themselves in it because there's a lot of data out there. There's a lot of research on coercive control, but it's very heavy stuff to read through. I feel like if you put it in a fictional story, sometimes you can get a different message through to people and it might connect in a different way. So I have Val who's a hairdresser and then I have Isla who's a British backpacker who's come to Australia for an adventure. Doesn't plan to fall in love with someone, but does. And he moves her to the island where Val is a hairdresser and Val starts to spot some things and intervenes probably in a way that she shouldn't.
Madeleine Cleary:Oh, Kylie, that sounds like an incredible book. And it's a story I think that has to be told. I mean, I think this is more common in our society than we know and realize.
Kylie Orr:Absolutely.
Madeleine Cleary:And often it's as well, it's, it's hard to identify those red flags for women who are in those situations too, in those relationships.
Kylie Orr:Yeah. And I've interviewed a lot of women, um, because I'm really interested in that, um, That initial sort of slide, like nobody starts a relationship with someone, you know, insulting them or physically hurting them and stays in it. Like, you know, they really love bomb them and woo them in. And so that's the part that really intrigued me. I mean, it does go to pretty dark places, but I always leave my reader with hope. I want them to finish the book and feel like everybody who needs to be okay is okay.
Madeleine Cleary:And I would say that is very similar to your first two books. The themes, when you read the blurb, they seem heavy, but there is always that beautiful moment of hope, which I think is really lovely and important. Oh, thank you.
Kylie Orr:Yeah. So I'm looking
Madeleine Cleary:forward to reading your third book. It sounds fantastic. Um, just on something different, because I know you have an amazing Profile online and you connect with so many people. And obviously you've got lots of friends and people who do different things, but you also connect online with a whole community there. Do you want to talk a little bit about your, cause you use Instagram primarily, I know as a, you're also also a social media profile, but how did you build your following and do you think it's important for authors to have it?
Kylie Orr:Look, I think I know plenty of authors who are highly successful without social media. I think if you write a good book, that's probably the most important thing. I guess if you have hundreds of thousands of followers and you write a book that might be very appealing to a publisher, but most of us don't have that many followers. Um, I started on Instagram when my children's books came out. So I did end up having four children's books published, um, and was quite uncomfortable about it. And I didn't. My husband, as I mentioned before, is in IT and absolutely hates social media. He doesn't like Mark Zuckerberg. He's he, he just, and if I ever complained to him about social media, he just looks at me like, yeah. Cause it's crap, like don't be on it, but I feel like it's hard not to be on it. And I feel like Instagram has been amazing for me in connecting me to the book community. So who knows if it helps with sales, but that's kind of not really why I'm on there. I feel like it's, I've met beautiful books to grammars. I've met other authors. I've met. librarians, booksellers, like bookish people. And it's so nice, particularly when you're a new author and you turn up to an event and you're a bit nervous and there's somebody in that audience that you recognize from, or whatever, that is really nice. Excuse me. I'm not getting emotional. I just lost my voice.
Madeleine Cleary:You can get emotional about that. That's fine.
Kylie Orr:So, yeah, it's been a slow build. I mean, I've been on there for a few years and, you know, I'm not breaking any records and you know, it's tricky to find the balance because I try not to. Like, I want it to be all round, and I want it to be authentic and honest, which is who I am, but also has got me into trouble. Um, so, and also I'm trying to respect my kids privacy, and you know, they're teenagers, so they don't really want to be, like, they don't even post on there. Do they follow you, though? I think so. I mean, I did, I put up a, you probably saw it. I put up a, like a dance video. Oh yes, I saw that.
Madeleine Cleary:That was fantastic. Your humor definitely shines through on your Instagram for everyone listening. That's good. Go check it out. Thank you. I
Kylie Orr:mean, I
Madeleine Cleary:think it's You've got great
Kylie Orr:dance moves, Chloe. I'm jealous. But my 13 year old daughter said to me, Oh my God, don't post that mom. My friends follow you. And that's going to be so embarrassing. And for a moment I was like, Oh, like, I don't want this to come off badly for her. Like, I don't want to post that and then have her friends go, Oh my God, your mom's so embarrassing. But in the end I was like, you know what, 13 year olds. I'm not my bloody audience and they can just unfollow me if they don't like it and I said to her, you know, only you think your own parent is embarrassing. Like growing up, I had friends who I thought their dads were hilarious, but they were horrified by their dads, you know, but I didn't think that I could see their dad might be embarrassing to them, but they weren't embarrassing to me as the friend. And so in the end, I was like, Screw this. I would actually rather show her, this is who I am unapologetically. I'm just putting a bit of fun out there. I'm not claiming to be some kind of dance star. I'm just showing them a little bit of insight into my life, which is sometimes at breakfast I dance and my kids roll their eyes and go, here she goes again. And. Okay. Thank you. Whatever. Like, I think we, we overanalyze it too much and people worry about the algorithms and all that. I know nothing about that. I don't care. I tried TikTok. I was terrible. I didn't do any dancing over there. I haven't
Madeleine Cleary:ventured into TikTok either. I think that's a whole new world.
Kylie Orr:I use it to actually, I almost use it like Google now, like, which is probably bad, but you know, I search different things on there, but I've stopped posting. And my publisher actually said to me in the nicest possible way. You don't need to be on TikTok. We've got young people for that. I was like, are you telling me I'm too old? No, no, no. But if you're not enjoying it, don't be on it. Like, and I was like, yeah, I'm not enjoying it. I'm getting off. And so that's what they were trying to say. And I think good advice I've heard is to just pick one, pick one that you like. I don't love Facebook. I don't really understand Facebook. I don't do the cross posting because You know, what I've learned is that each platform has a very different kind of feel. And so sometimes I will take content from Instagram and adjust it for Facebook, but I, I don't, I see people who cross promote and think, I think you're missing something there. You're not actually catering this to your audience, which obviously takes time. And maybe specialists in social media say that's stupid. Don't do that. But I just, to me, it's almost like, again, catering your pitch. Yeah. Yeah. Talk to your audience and don't, and also you don't want to just be selling stuff all the time. Hey, I wrote a book. Did you hear I wrote a book? Look at the book. Here's the book. See? And when it's coming out, it feels very much like that. You just have to ride the buzz and hope that people will stay with you. But I try to sort of diversify it a little bit.
Madeleine Cleary:What do you think is the time period you're allowed when your book comes out to, to say, Hey, I've written a book a couple of weeks, maybe. I reckon a couple of weeks too.
Kylie Orr:I just, I mean, you know, I was doing, I had a very intensive event schedule that I had.
Madeleine Cleary:Yes. I want to talk about that too, actually. Yes. Your event schedule, but yes, good.
Kylie Orr:And so I was, you know, I had a lot of content I could post and I was like, God, people getting sick of this. And I was wearing yellow to match with my book cover. So sometimes I used that as a. An edge or I tried to maybe profile someone who came to one of my events because that's kind of the interesting connection part that I like. Um, but I, you know, even myself who now understands that your book probably gets a month of attention and then the next round of books come through. So you do have a very small window to promote your book. I mean, obviously you can still Peter often promote it, but people, I get sick of seeing other people's stuff After about a week or two, I'm like, yeah, yeah, you wrote a book. Got it. like, great. It's an amazing achievement. Congratulations and get excited and soak in all those moments where it's on the shelf and stuff. But if you keep hammering people over the head with it,
Madeleine Cleary:and in the end the people who are following you, they've probably already bought. The book or they've read it or they've engaged with you. It, I think I've, I had some really good advice not to use social media as an author to sell your books. It's there for, as a connect, a way for you to connect with the industry and be part of the industry. And I think, yeah, absolutely. If you approach it as a, a, a way for you to sell your, your books, it's, it's probably not going to work out the way you want. Um, unless of course you've got a massive profile, like that's different. Exactly. And I'm sure
Kylie Orr:there are people who, you know, have strategies about converting, you know, these things to sales, but that is not me. And also it's not my job. Like it's not, my job is to write a good book. That's right. Connect with my readers. And
Madeleine Cleary:not be consumed by Instagram because it can be at all consuming as well.
Kylie Orr:Absolutely. And I do think it changes the way you think. Like when I first got on it, You know, I'd be walking somewhere and I'd think, Oh, that might be a good photo for Instagram. And I'm like, who am I turned into now? Like, is this who I am? You start drafting the captions in your head. Yeah. So I, I do think it does mess with your brain a little bit. I try to balance it out, but yeah.
Madeleine Cleary:Yes. No, it's a good, good thing. So actually on your events, cause I did notice you had an amazing schedule following the publication of the 11th floor. How did that. Come to, to head, did you go and organize some of those events yourself and tell us about some of the reception, I suppose, that you received in those events too.
Kylie Orr:Yeah. Okay. Um, I love events. I love meeting readers. Are you an extrovert? I think so. I think you are. I, I, I used to be, I think COVID changed things for me. Like I used to be someone who would go through our calendar like and go, Oh, we've got a spare weekend. Who can we have over? And my husband is quite introverted, but loves cooking. So it was a great way to, he would cook and it gave him something to talk about. And then I would do all the, you know. Entertaining. Um, but through COVID, I think I just got really lazy. And now I look at my calendar and hope for a free weekend and I don't fill it with social things, but I think, um, the events, I love them, but they're exhausting. And also you have to be on, like you can't go to an event and be feeling a bit flat or a bit tired because it's like you're one, you You know, opportunity to connect with that group of readers and not that I, you know, I'm not a professional speaker. I don't, but I feel confident speaking about my books, but I've built that over time, of course. So it was very nerve wracking at the start. I'm happy to chat to someone Q and A, but then a couple of the libraries were like, Oh, we don't have anyone who can do a Q and A. Can you just do a presentation? I was like, what? Um, so yeah, it has, I've had to build my confidence over time, but in terms of organizing it, that is a very individual. Her author thing that whatever situation they've got going on with their publisher. What I learned from the first book is you really have to capitalize on that first kind of two weeks to a month when the book comes out. And I didn't realize that. And there was a few things organized, but I didn't really understand whose job it was to organize them. I, and I was so scared of stepping on toes, like, am I allowed to ask the publisher that do I ask my agent that? And, you know, the vibe I kind of got was. We don't have a lot of time to do this. Like if you want to do it, you're welcome to contact whoever. But then I was like, how do I do that? Do I just send an email to a librarian? Do I just I think that's what
Madeleine Cleary:we're all asking in our current debut crew.
Kylie Orr:How do we do this? Yeah, I think you can. I think you just introduce yourself. But If you can do it before the book comes out, like, so for the second book, I like, usually you get assigned a publicist, but they're so run off their feet. You're not their only author. So, you know, they, they might reach out to a few different places that they have established relationships with. And, you know, I was, for my second book, I think I pushed a little bit harder, felt a bit more confident about asking for things. And so I did, um, They were great at organizing quite a few more events than the first time around, but I also knew from the first time, about six months out from when my book, I started contacting, but I'd built relationships from the first book. The problem with the first book was when it came out and then I realized, Oh, hang on. How do people get these events? What am I supposed to do? It was already three, four, five months after the book had come out. And sometimes booksellers are not that interested because it's too far from release date and then they've got all these other books coming out or librarians might say, yeah, we're happy for you to come, but we can't get a bookseller to come or, you know, those, so you might have to bring your own stock. So I just had to sort of feel my way. And, but I established enough relationships with like local libraries and that I was able to contact them again and say, Hey, remember me, my second book's coming out. How would you feel about me doing? And so I did really hack them in at the start. And I like nearly lost my voice by the end because I was talking so much. So I think it's a balance. But. I, I think most debut authors will find that they have to arrange their own events. That's good advice. So don't be frightened to contact, you know, librarians love authors generally, if you're nice and polite and you help them fill their calendar. Um, yeah, I probably do more libraries than any kind of, you know, author. Bookseller events, um, and also I love libraries and I love the idea that books are accessible to people in whatever form because books are expensive and not everybody can afford them. And so I would much rather reach a reader who gets to borrow my book than not reach them at all. And I have done events in tiny regional towns where five people have turned up and I've thought, gosh, was this like worth it? I've paid petrol, I'm paying my accommodation. Like, mostly the publisher doesn't have the budget to do all that, so you are investing again. You know, I went to one, it was in Kerrang in Victoria, and you know, it was lovely. I love meeting people. They even asked me to go to the aged care facility. Really? Say hello to the people there. So I did. Um, anyway, but you kind of get home and think, God, I've actually invested all this money. I wonder, I would like, there's sort of no way to make the, you know, a data link between how many fails spurred from that event. And that's kind of not why you do it. You're building your brand or just hoping to have a repeat reader, I guess. Anyway, when my second book came out, I had a woman contact me who'd come to the Kerrang event and said, I'm not sure if you remember me, but I came to Kerrang and as soon as I saw that your second book was out, I bought it, loved it, just wanted to let you know. I mean, gosh,
Madeleine Cleary:how amazing. That's why you do it. That is. So if you hadn't have gone to that event with those five people, you would never have received that. And that's a really heartwarming email to receive. Of
Kylie Orr:course. I mean, God, it's so nice to hear from readers when they're not Correcting your grammar or whatever. Um, but stuff like that is, I mean, that, that's enough for me to go, yeah, it's worthwhile. And then I, I did one, um, in Mornington and one of the women who attended, enjoyed it so much that she ended up contacting me when the second book came out and said, would you come and run a workshop for our writers group? And I'd never run a workshop before. So I had to kind of teach myself how to do that. And that, Went amazingly well, and now I've got a workshop that I've written that hopefully I can, you know, offer to other organizations. So I
Madeleine Cleary:think you
Kylie Orr:need to not look at it as only five people turned up. You need to look at it and not also look at it as well, look at the opportunities that might come out of it, but just connecting with people. That's the key. The nice bit.
Madeleine Cleary:That's wonderful. And you went down to Tassie as well, didn't
Kylie Orr:you? I did. I did a few events with Jo Dixon, who's from the same publisher as me. And I love Jo and we had fun and we did a road trip and yes, and then she came to Melbourne and I organized a few events for us together there. And that's also great for libraries because they get two for one.
Madeleine Cleary:Exactly. And they would just be so, I would imagine being really grateful that you guys have come out to some of those regional areas. They probably don't see that many authors coming to see. Absolutely.
Kylie Orr:And also when there's two of you, it's great because you can just bounce off each other. So you can do a Q& A, no librarian has to necessarily do extra work to be involved, you know, so it's kind of. A traveling roadshow. That's here's something we prepared earlier.
Madeleine Cleary:Amazing.
Kylie Orr:Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary:Well, I'm just going to ask you one last question, if that's okay, Kylie. Um, and normally on the podcast, we ask our guest authors for their top tip for emerging writers, but in the spirit of your Wednesday segment on your Instagram, which is the wins and woes, which everyone loves. So do check it out. If you haven't already, I thought I'd ask you, what's been your biggest win so far and your. Gracious woe? Is that the way to describe it?
Kylie Orr:I guess so. Firstly, I have to credit author Eliza Henry Jones with the wins and woes idea because we have a group chat in our writers group that I'm in one with her and she used to just pop in there if she hadn't heard from us for a while. Okay, everyone wins and woes. So I said to her, I just love this idea. Can I steal it for Instagram and just call it Wins and Woes Wednesday? And she's like, uh, yeah, I don't own it. Um, yeah, it's, I like it because it helps you focus on like, if you're having a bad week, it also helps you focus on something that was a win. So, uh, do you want me to start with my woe, I guess, and then we'll end on a win. Let's end on a win. So the woe is the woe about for emerging writers. I would say. The biggest woe for me was probably the learning curve and the reality versus the expectation. I think it's incredibly hard to be seen in a sea of books that are being released each month, and you have no control over when your book comes out and who it's up against when it does. You just have to hope that your readership builds over time. And even though I'd been told that, and I've been told to play the long game and all of those things, I just I don't know. I just assumed it was going to be an instant bestseller and get a movie deal.
Madeleine Cleary:Of course. That is the expectation because that's what you read about in the media, isn't it?
Kylie Orr:Exactly. I think. Yeah. I think we just, I mean, that was always my hope. I was just joking about it, but you know, some part of me is like, well, it would be great if it did happen.
Madeleine Cleary:And you have to have that hope always.
Kylie Orr:Yeah. I think the, what, I don't know if it's a woe, but learning to let go of the control. Like I wanted to know every step of the way how I, I work better with information and I work Better if I know how things operate and so much of publishing feels like it's behind a big heavy drape and we have no idea what's going on behind it. And it almost feels like we're not allowed to peek through, you know, like, hi, can I have a look at how, like, I wanted to go to like, can I come and meet the sales team and, you know, tell them, so they actually have a personal, you know, connection. And, you know, they get you to film little videos about your book and stuff, but you're not meeting. The team and all like, but obviously you also don't want to be that really annoying author who's highly demanding and, and you're new to this. So you want to make sure everyone likes you and everybody's happy with the way, you know, but I am ambitious and I'm also older. Like, I don't have time to just stuff around. I've spent years waiting to get this book published. And then I, I don't want to see it just fall off the shelf after three months. But also I didn't really understand what I could do to impact that to make it better. I think my mistake was that I mistook passion and ambition for impatience. And I think that it's very hard to be patient when you feel everything's riding on this one moment. Like when my book comes out, what, what do I do? What if it doesn't do as well as they'd hoped or, you know, so I think that woe probably continues, but I'm learning to just let go a little bit and say, well, I don't, I can't control that. I'll just control what I can. I'll write the best book I can and, you know, ask for some stuff and maybe I'll get it and maybe I won't and do the events cause I like it, not because I'm expecting anything out of it. And do some Instagram reels because. It's a bit of fun and that's pretty much all I can do. And you hope that one day, you know, you can make this your career and make a living out of it.
Madeleine Cleary:And I would imagine letting, coming to that realization and letting that go, it's a relief, isn't it? When you know, when you look at what it is that you can control, which is writing a good book, doing the events that you really enjoy, but all the other things that go on in the background. And I think because the publishers, you Uh, incredibly busy in the sales teams and all sorts of things. Like they're operating on very, very tight timeframes themselves. They've got so much going on. It's, it's quite difficult to be that person to knock on the door and ask questions if you can't.
Kylie Orr:Yeah, absolutely. And I've never been made to feel like I can't ask the question. It's just that we have, you know, particularly as debuts, we just have this thing, like we're so lucky that we got a book deal, so many people want it. I don't want to ruin it by being that person. And. Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary:Yes. I was talking with Catherine Collette yesterday and I said we need a procedural instruction on how to be a debut. We need to, because I come from government where everything, all the processes are documented in very orderly ways. That would be really handy. It would be nice,
Kylie Orr:but it's probably different for every single book. That's the problem. They need it. Yeah. I mean, I did once. Like when I was kind of frustrated at the start, like, I don't understand how any of this works. I did like this little document for myself that was like, this is all the questions I need answered as a new author. And stuff like, what's the print run going to be? And you know, like, Um, where is it selling into? Is it going to Target? Is it going to Kmart? Like you don't, unless you ask, you don't necessarily get given that information. And I guess the publisher is also trying to walk that tightrope of not wanting to upset you or disappoint you like they hold hope for your book too. So, and not every single book can have, you know, massive exposure, they don't have budgets for this. So, or time or whatever. So I think, yeah, just learning to let go. So I, I think. I was worried that letting go of control meant I would care less, like I'd linked these two ideas that I, I only want to know how it all works because I care. I care about the outcome of the book and I've kind of learned I can still care about the outcome and know that it's just getting me so wound up all these different parts of cogs in the wheel that I don't understand. So I either will learn what I can and then the rest. Whatever.
Madeleine Cleary:That's, I think, a fantastic tip to hold for emerging writers as a way of sort of managing their own expectations about the process, but also for us debuts for next year as well. I think it's a great tip. And
Kylie Orr:then the
Madeleine Cleary:win,
Kylie Orr:we should end on the win. It's hard to narrow it down, but I would say that seeing your book on a shelf is a pretty big win. Amazing. And for me, I have no idea why, but walking through the airport and spotting my book was like, Oh my God. This is amazing. This might never, ever happen to me again. I am in an airport and my book is on the shelf. And that's quite hard to get into the airport as well. Like not every book can fit in an airport bookshop. So not everyone will get their book in an airport bookshop. And they're all different. Suppliers anyway. So, um, so that was a pretty huge win for me. I would say readers contacting me is also a huge win and the beautiful writing community. I mean, I don't, I don't know much of the writing community outside of Melbourne, Victoria. I know some in New South Wales and they're lovely. I haven't met. A writer I didn't like, they're all very, to me, just welcoming and you know, they commiserate and they understand how it works and they celebrate each other's wins and it's just not like anything I've known. I don't know. We're just, it's, it's a very supportive community, not just writers, but the bookstagrammers, librarians and yeah.
Madeleine Cleary:We are so lucky, I think, to have this community and we are lucky to have you as part of it. Kylie. Oh, thank you. So thank you so much for joining us on the book deal and I wish all of those debuts the best of luck. Thank you.
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