Alli Parker and Mark Mupotsa-Russell on finding success with your second book

Alli Parker and Mark Mupotsa-Russell on finding success with your second book

In this episode, Madeleine chats second books with Alli Parker and Mark Mupotsa-Russell. Is second book syndrome a thing? Is it harder or easier to publish a second time?

This is an episode full for heart, craft, strategy, lessons learned, screenwriting tips for novelists and self-care and is useful for a writer at any stage of their journey. 

The Wolf Who Cried Boy by Mark Mupotsa-Russell (Affirm Press)

Until The Red Leaves Fall by Alli Parker (HarperCollins Australia)

You can listen to Mark and Alli's earlier episodes on the pod here:

The Debut Year in Review (with Mark)

Alli Parker on how to be a bestseller

00:00 Introduction to the Book Deal Podcast

00:56 Meet the Guests: Alli Parker and Mark Mupotsa-Russell

02:28 Second books

08:36 The Wolf Who Cried Boy

17:18 Until the Red Leaves Fall

19:11 Exploring Themes and Characters

23:12 Writing Techniques and Storytelling Approaches

36:12 Exploring Character Depth and Heroism

39:41 Publishing Your Second Book: Lessons Learned

40:43 Balancing Art and Commerce in Writing

45:10 Marketing Strategies for Authors

47:05 Self-care

48:32 Managing Book Events and Publicity

53:59 Screenwriting Tips for Novel Writing

01:06:46 Top Tips for Writers

01:12:32 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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Transcript

Speaker 7 0:09

This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books.

Speaker 8 0:15

We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal.

Speaker 9 0:25

So no matter what's. Stage of writing your at. We've got you covered. I'm Tina Strachan.

Speaker 7 0:30

I'm Madeline Cleary.

Speaker 8 0:32

And I'm Natasha Rai.

Speaker 9 0:34

And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors

Speaker 10 0:37

one deal at a time. The book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners, the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.

Speaker 11 0:56

Ali Parker and Mark Mupotsa-Russell are two of my favorite writing friends. Ali is a Japanese Australian bestselling author and screenwriter and ordained boo novel. At the foot of the cherry tree was an instant bestseller. Mark Mupotsa-Russell has won a bunch of different hats as a screenwriter film reviewer. Cocktail columnist, PR consultant and communications advisor. He's debut novel. The Hit Woman's Guide to Reducing Household Debt is being adapted for screen Over a year ago now, I interviewed Ali and Mark about their debut novels for the pod, and so I invited them back to share their experiences of publishing for the second time.

Madeleine Cleary 1:34

So this is a very special first for the podcast, because I'm bringing back two amazing guests and two of my favorite writing people to talk second books. Um, and I have to say that I'm sitting here quite envious of the two of you, uh, because you have both followed up your debuts with some really incredible second novels. So a big welcome back, Ali Parker

Alli Parker 1:56

Thanks.

Mark Mupotsa-Russell 1:58

and Mark Mupotsa-Russell

Speaker 2 1:59

Thank you.

Alli Parker 2:01

I didn't know which of us you were gonna go do first, so I thought

Madeleine Cleary 2:05

I started with Ali'cause a a's first in the

Alli Parker 2:08

I should have about

Madeleine Cleary 2:08

no favorites. No favorites here. Um, so everyone always talks about the debut experience, but I think people rarely talk about publishing second books, third books, fourth books. Uh, I think there's an assumption that. if you've done it once, then surely it gets easier. So Mark, does it get easier?

Mark Mupotsa-Russell 2:28

Um, I don't, so I, I slightly cheated in that I kind of had a lot of this book, um, already, uh, I, I had so many, like two decades of rejections and all that sort of stuff that, um, I, I haven't been sort of like a put all my eggs in one basket kind of thing. Um, so when I, I was publishing the Hitman's Guide to Reducing Household Debt when that, before that had even been picked up on contract. I think I had like two thirds of a rough draft of this one. Um, so it was a little bit different in that I didn't have that pressure of trying to come up with a new idea, all that sort of stuff like that. Um, the, the actual promotion part of it, I, uh, might. Experience and I'd be fascinated to hear, um, uh, Ali's and yours Madeline, in, um, a little while of, uh, like I feel like on the first book I was just anxious. It was just like a broad anxiousness and I had no idea what to expect. And this time I was incredibly anxious about the right things. I think like, you know, there, there's, you know, where to direct that stuff a little bit more. That's probably the simplest way I, I experienced it.

Madeleine Cleary 3:41

Ali, what do you think?

Alli Parker (2) 3:43

It is. Interesting. I had almost, I guess, the completely opposite approach to Mark for my second book in that I didn't have one, I had a basic idea for what would come after at the Foot of the Cherry Tree, and that was when we went to Harper Collins, my publisher, and we were pitching them. We were talking obviously about Cherry Tree because that was the book that I'd written. And then I remember in that first meeting with my publisher, before she'd even made an offer, she was like, have you got any other ideas? And I was like, yes, I, and I had this one liner for what I thought Book two would be, and I gave it to her and she goes, great. And then we just kept talking about Cherry Tree. And then when obviously Cherry Tree came out, I had then in the process of submitting Cherry Tree and going to print, I then started working on the second book. And then it just was so hard, and it wasn't even because there was pressure from Cherry Tree, I was just like. I don't know what I'm doing. This is the first book that I'm writing as a book, because Cherry Tree, I had written as a screenplay first, which I was really familiar with the format. And then I adapted the screenplay into a manuscript. So I already had a really solid foundation of the story there. But with this new book, I was like, oh, this is what, is this what every book is like? Like this is like how you write prose. It's so much harder than I thought. And there were days where it was like wading through treacle and I just could not get any words down. And then there were some scenes that flew and they were really amazing. And then I submitted that draft to my publisher, which was maybe like two months after Cherry Tree come out, or maybe I submitted it just before Cherry Show came out. I can't really remember the timeline, but my publisher then had it for three months. And in that. Period of three months. I had so much doubt about it. I decided I didn't like the draft. I decided the first draft, even though first drafts can be rough, absolutely, but it wasn't where I wanted it to be. And I had the spark of an idea for another story and I was like, okay, well if they turn around and say we wanna talk to you about a third book, I wanna have something already on the go.'cause I want the timelines to be a bit closer. And so I started working on this new idea. And then the more I started working on this new idea, the more I fell in love with it. And it was so much easier to write. And it was coming together really organically, and the characters felt more real and the settings felt more real. And everything just came together so well, is that I was just like, how do I mention that I wanna swap books? And then basically the day that I started writing the first page of the manuscript of Until the Red Leaves Fall, I wrote like 300 words. And then I stopped to take a break, make a cup of tea. I came back to my computer and I had a missed call from my publisher and had immediate panic attack.'cause I always have a panic attack when my publisher calls, even though it's never bad news. So I really need to weed that out. Um, but she was ringing to talk about the second book. Uh, and so we had a chat about the second book and she was like, oh, you know, it needs work, but we can get it there, but we're probably gonna have to push into 2025.'cause it was supposed to be published in August, 2024. So a year after Cherry Tree. And I was like, inwardly, I'm thinking, oh, if we're gonna push, I'd really just rather like push and just go to. And so I was like, okay, okay. Yeah, let's, let's see. Like I'd be interested in your like written notes and we can talk through that way. And then she said, you know, it's the, it's basically the 2nd of January. She's like, where are you? What are you doing? Are you on holidays? Are you working? And I said, oh, I'm actually away on a writer's retreat. Um, and I've just started working on something new this morning. And she goes. What's that about? And so I gave this really messy pitch of this story that I suddenly had in my head. And basically she was like, okay, write as much as you kind of a January. Send me everything you've got at the end of the month and we can make a call there.'cause I think this sounds like a better follow up novel to Cherry Tree. And so I wrote something like 25, 20 6,000 words over January, which just shows how much better it was working. And then I sent it to her. And then yeah, we ended up swapping and pushing a little bit further. So we went from August, 2024 and then we were sort of talking about maybe like April, 2025. And then we pushed into August, 2025 for until the Red Leaves fall. So I had nothing. Mark had everything and I had nothing.

Mark Mupotsa-Russell 7:54

I, I may, I may have misrepresented how easily this second book came. Like, I, I didn't have to worry about having to come up with it, but I still definitely smashed my head against walls and blank pages as much as possible.

Speaker 14 8:08

Okay. So I think the summary of that is no, it's not easier to write your second book. All right, great. That's,

Alli Parker (2) 8:16

Hey. Okay. So can I, can I interject here as well, because Madeline, I know you are working on your second book. How have you found the process of working on your second book?

Speaker 14 8:26

Really hard.

Alli Parker (2) 8:27

Yeah, it's really,

Speaker 4 8:30

sorry. Listen, it doesn't get.

Mark Mupotsa-Russell 8:33

No,

Speaker 14 8:34

All right, let's talk about these second books. Um, mark, can you give us the elevator pitch to the Wolf Who Cried Boy.

Mark Mupotsa-Russell 8:41

Yeah, absolutely. Um, I, there there's always that extra little, uh, tension around, um, doing it. To you though, Madeline, considering like, uh, for people who are listening, Madeline heard my incredibly initial, uh, pitch ages ago where she kind of put me on the spot when I hadn't polished it yet. And it was this rambling thing that, um, at the end of it she said, yeah, um, may maybe you could do this and that, which would basically code for change the entire thing. So, we'll, we'll see if we've, we've picked up or not.

Madeleine Cleary 9:12

I think Mark, I was a little bit more honest. I think I said it wasn't very good.

Mark Mupotsa-Russell 9:16

Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 4 9:18

You know, you're in trouble when someone's voice goes up in Octa, you're like, Oh.

Mark Mupotsa-Russell 9:22

Yes. Yeah.

Madeleine Cleary 9:25

Alright, well give us your new and improved pitch then. I'm excited Mark.

Mark Mupotsa-Russell 9:28

Okay. Rub Rob's hands together. Um, uh, the Wolf who Cried Boy is, uh, like this mix of big feels, kind of general fiction and prop propulsive thriller. My super short elevator pitch is Emma Donahue's Room on the Run. Uh, and basically it's about 6-year-old Henry who's always been told his mom is a fairytale star queen, who is lured down to earth by the evil wolf king, who stole her magic and hunts them constantly. Uh, in reality, his mom invented this story though to keep him safe while on the run from his powerful and abusive father. Uh, when they hear that Henry's grandma is very sick, he and mom have to make it all the way from Gippsland Victoria up to Brisbane without being detected. Henry isn't afraid though. He knows his powers will save them.

Madeleine Cleary 10:18

Oh, ally, what do you think?

Alli Parker (2) 10:20

I think that's a good pitch.

Speaker 2 10:22

It's better. It's better, yeah.

Alli Parker (2) 10:23

Yeah, and it definitely encapsulates the book, like as you were just saying, that I was remembering scenes from the book that I'd sort of hadn't thought about in a while. I was like, oh yeah, that's actually, that's true. That's so good. Yeah. So good pitch. Well

Speaker 14 10:34

It's,

Speaker 2 10:34

Ah, amazing.

Speaker 14 10:36

really good pitch. Um, and it, it's funny'cause it sounds like really dark and serious and it is, it is a dark book, but there is so much light in it and it's a absolute page turner. So I get that propulsive thriller element. It's a amazing. book. Everyone who I have recommended it to and who has read it has adored it. So if you haven't read it yet, definitely pick it up. Um, mark.

Speaker 2 10:59

thank you. And, and I do note that none of you, um, went up and optiv at any stage in that.

Speaker 14 11:05

that's my honest, honest, Yeah, I'm interested because a lot of people have said the book's ambitious and which is an interesting way to describe, I think. Did you ever, did you feel it was ambitious when you started tackling it?

Mark Mupotsa-Russell 11:18

Yeah, well that, that's where a lot of the, um, the, the kind of worry and the, the hard part of the writing comes from of like, um,'cause my, my phrase of it has always been like big swing of, of like, um, you know, uh, the, the, because it's all from a six year old's perspective. Um, and I didn't want to ever cheat that. That was the tricky thing, um, of, I just always wanted it to be in his head. Um, and him. Seeing things and understanding things at his level, and also only hearing things that he would naturally hear occasionally. You know, he likes sneaking around, he occasionally overhears things that he doesn't necessarily understand or he misunderstands. Um, but on the whole, like, adults just don't explain to six year olds what they're doing. And the, um, the, the big thing that hit me very quickly was that like six year olds don't give a shit about plot. So like, basically he, he's never gonna say what they need to do and where they are and what they're going for, except in his own kind of thing. Because, um, uh, the, the really. The really ambitious part of it, I think, I suppose for me is, um, obviously that voice, the 6-year-old, but it's, it's the multiple voices that are going on at any one time. So what, what I had to try and do was, um, basically, uh, Henry's got this idea of him being a superhero and learning and he's gonna get his power someday and everything. So his narrative has to fit that. It has to always be, um, coherent, and that has to be an entire story within itself with its own logic. At the same time, the actual story is all implied and inferred by us, and it's all us passing through what's actually happening based off his mom's reactions and everything like that. So that also has to work. And then the, the tricky bit that I tried to add a little bit was, um. A bit more of a, um, and, and I, I, this was hard, I didn't wanna overdo this, but this kind of meta commentary of what these ideas of, um, superheroes and fairytales'cause it's, um, sort of aiming to do both, um, what they tend to have to say about our society and particularly, um, gender and, and heroism and bravery and, and all that sort of stuff. Um, so the, the example I often give is, is, um, like at one stage, Henry's giving the rules for being a superhero. And one of them is that you do what's right. Um, uh, no matter who tells you you are wrong, um, and you stick to it and all that sort of stuff like that, which is fantastic if you've got like a clear moral compass. But if you don't like what's right becomes, you know, a. Coercive control, tyrant, dictator, you know, like that, that kind of aggressive might is right. Kind of, um, idea. So that, that's the stuff I was kind of trying to let dangle there. So there, there's a lot of, um, things I was wanting to cram in, and particularly my early drafts just seem, um, very scary to me because like the, all those seams are very showing and it's, it's jumping from one tone to another and it's clearly trying to put too much in at once and all this sort of stuff. So that, that was this ambitious and scary part of it for me, I suppose.

Speaker 14 14:44

And when we talk about superheroes as well and the blurring of lines, it, it really blurs with that concept of villains. And villains is a theme in both your novels actually. Um.

Speaker 2 14:54

Hmm. Yeah.

Speaker 14 14:55

Can you talk a little bit about your approach to writing like good baddies and nuanced villains?

Mark Mupotsa-Russell 15:03

Yeah. Well, I, I think, um, uh, the. This is kind of the secret to, um, or something I focus on with all my writing, but it, it is that everyone is the hero of the story in their head. Um, that, that's pretty classic advice. But the, um, the, I, I don't think there are that many villains in real life, um, who actively say, I am the bad guy. Like, um, 90% of the time it's either, oh, I'm doing this for the greater good. Um, and they're just rationalizing that, or it's this, this is the way the world is and you just have to be like this in order to survive. And anyone else is naive. Like the, those tend to be, I think, the classic mindsets that people are going through. So there's never gonna be mustache twirling there. There's, there's going to be very much I'm rationalizing like, um, uh, my behavior and, um, there, there's, um, there's this classic screenwriter thing, um, that I've heard a I had a long time ago, um, that really stuck with me. Um. I, I think it's a bit too prescriptive and I, I don't do it this way, but I think it's a good little thought, um, is that basically the villain is the hero if they made the wrong choice at one point. Like, and, and so that, that creates, um, uh, a powerful thematic thing of, of bouncing off. Um, you get to see the hero's values if they get twisted and, you know, like all these sorts of things. And, um, uh, with, with Henry, he's, he's kind of, um, he's got this very like, superhero based idea, which is that, you know, punching out the villain, punching out the bad guys, all that sort of stuff like that. Like he's, that's funny and cute when he is six. Like, and what's the age where that twists and, you know, and he's seeing ev everywhere he's looking. Around because he doesn't have his, um, you know, a, a consistent male figure in his, in his life. He, he kind of, every male figure he comes across, he's, he's trying to work out, is that me later? Is that, you know, that like, what, what's he looking to for, um, what he can become and who a heroes. So that, that hero villain line, I wanted to always be testing.

Madeleine Cleary 17:17

Hmm. Well, Ali, I know you've got lots to talk about on this subject as well, so do you wanna give us your pitch first, but until the red leaves fall.

Alli Parker (2) 17:26

Yeah, the pressure's on now, uh, and until The Red Leaves Fall is a historical fiction novel which follows the story of Emmy Darling, who has always wanted to be a playwright, um, but she's had to put her own ambitions aside to support her husband's Sebastian's career. And it's worked. Sebastian is currently the hottest playwright of Melbourne's 1957 theater scene, but when, uh, theater and Presario and lead actress, Virginia Van Bell discovers that her favorite scenes in Sebastian's plays are actually scenes that Emmy has written and put in during edits. Virginia wonders whether Emmy might like to write for her theater, the Bellevue. And when Virginia discovers the truth of Emmy's wartime experience, which is as a Japanese Australian woman, Emmy and her family were arrested by the Australian government and thrown into internment camps for the duration of the war. Virginia insists that the play be written about that initially. Emmy's really excited to tell her family story, to have this opportunity and literally have a stage of the Melbourne theater to tell the truth of what happened to her family. But as the work progresses, she comes to realize that her version of the play and Virginia's version of the play are two very different things. And as opening that looms, she wonders whether she might have handed her family story over to exactly the wrong person. So it's full of betrayal secrets and lies. And ask the question, what happens when you let the truth get in the way of a good story?

Speaker 14 18:58

Hmm, mark your

Speaker 2 19:00

Yes. I love it. I love that. Um, yeah, no,

Speaker 14 19:05

And also you put a lot in as well, Ali, both of you, you and Mark have both put in a lot in your books. You're covering, um, you know, huge issues, race, identity secrets, betrayal, and also this concept of villains as well. Do you think, is Virginia Van Bell a villain?

Alli Parker (2) 19:25

Not if you ask her.

Speaker 14 19:27

Exactly.

Alli Parker (2) 19:28

Yeah, it's um, it's really, it's interesting because obviously there are two key characters in my book and this isn't, these aren't really spoilers for anyone'cause you can kind of see it pretty early. But Sebastian and Virginia are the main antagonists for me in until the Red Leaves fall. And you know, like for legal reasons, I have to say that none of these characters are based on anyone that I worked with in television, but they are. Maybe archetypes of people who I saw or I saw glimpses of behavior that I then extrapolated out into a more extreme version for characters that I wrote. And of course, like Sebastian as a, as a character is not unknown in, in terms of he is a writer who has a woman basically facilitating his writing skill, which is rife throughout history, right? It's f Scott Fitzgerald, it's George Orwell. It's all sorts of people who really relied on their wife, both creatively and domestically to facilitate their writing practice and help them become the figure in the literary worlds that they are today. And so, because the book really is about telling stories and who gets to tell stories and what voices we lose, or maybe the voices we don't look for so much, I thought it was a really interesting dynamic to have. Emmy caught between these two very powerful people in her life, her husband and her boss, who seem to want the same thing as her, but they don't actually, but they present it that way. This sort of, uh, I guess performative allyship, I guess we would call it in, in the, in the 2020s. But, you know, the, the pretense that Virginia has an open heart and is doing wants to tell this story for all of the right reasons. And she, Emmy comes to realize that actually what Virginia wants is something that perpetuates stereotype and reinforces a narrative that is very pervasive and very damaging to the people who it's about. But because VI Virginia isn't one of those people who it's about, it doesn't matter so much. But there's also something in Virginia being a powerful woman in the theater, she's the only woman who has her own theater in Melbourne. She's the only woman who holds women up as. You know, uh, people who can work in the theater in a really male dominated industry. So she's also someone that Emmy looks up to. So it's this really delicate balance between how much can you trust what Virginia's saying, because she's experienced and she's been around and she knows what she's doing.'cause she knows her audience versus what Emmy wants of the truth and how you balance that. Which is something I think with storytelling, it's, it's a really difficult thing, period. I think for any storyteller, there is a line where you go, at what point does this become sensationalized? At what point am I just telling the story and I'm reinforcing a stereotype that's damaging? Have I done my research in this to sort of diversify this point of view or this opinion? Or is this character well enough developed? Like these are all questions that we should be asking ourselves as storytellers as well. And so. I think it's a really interesting conversation'cause that is something that now readers are starting to ask of authors and writers and storytellers. And I think it's all completely valid. And so it's, I think it's a really interesting discussion. And then to frame it in a 1950s context where I think some of the identity politics are a little bit more heightened because it's so fresh post-war, particularly in a, a Japanese and Australian born Japanese perspective. So yeah, it's, there's lots of different layers in until the red leaves fall. And while you know, it's easy to hate characters, they all, I think, I like to think, anyway, that. They all have their reasons for being that way and behaving that way. Like a lot of people don't like Sebastian as a character, but he's a man of his time. That is what men in, not all men in the fifties, obviously hashtag not all men, but, but like a lot of men were the breadwinners. They were really, you know, they were the ones who would, would go out and work. And then there were women who were stay at home wives, you know? And so the men had so much more power back in the 1950s, but they didn't realize they had the power.'cause that was just the paradigm of the time. And so Sebastian doesn't realize his own privilege. He's just living his life as he expects it to be lived. And he is just having things handed to him, not even on a silver platter, but like on a golden platter. You know, he's the perfect candidate for all these things. And so Emmy, because of society and because of the expectations and because of her own history and her own trauma about her history. She makes herself so small to be palatable to these people until she realizes that actually that's not the way to do it anymore. And so it's really important to have those really strong antagonistic characters so that your protagonist can learn those lessons and realize that actually what she wants, she's gonna have to fight for it. Because if you make it too easy, then the book's over in like a hundred pages and it's really boring. So you gotta have given something to push against.

Speaker 14 24:34

And you do that really masterly you. I, I've always admired the way that you can subtly convey messages, I, think to the reader, um, without, um, being heavy handed in it as well. It's just this beautiful evolution, I think as the story progresses. So, um, it, yeah, it's an amazing book. Um, and my voice did not inflect there. Um, I would.

Mark Mupotsa-Russell 24:59

I, I actually had a question around, around that. Ever, ever since I, read the book and I, I told you earlier how much I loved it. I, I was interested like, so with at the Foot of the Cherry Tree, you start with, I'm, I'm sure you have a better phrase for this, but, what could be argued was the single worst event in human history, being the bombing of the people of Nagasaki, Hiroshima. And then, you sort of, you work through World War ii, but it's almost, completely focused around, uh, this one couple, and their experiences. And it's, this gigantic starts gigantic honing in kind of thing. With Until the Reds fall, it, it kind of starts with this very small theater. Production and then kind of, uh, reverses, perspective of, of, going out into all the, all the issues you've, you've already mentioned, but, the others as well that you, you you've put in there that, uh, you could include of, of like legacy and, and history and, and familial, mythology and, you know, all, all these, all these kinds of, uh, colorism, all, all this stuff that, that's kind of there. And, I was kind of thinking as, as, as I got about two thirds of the way through until the redley fall, whether that was something you aimed at from the start, whether that started to happen, whether I'm kind of drawing along bow and being ridiculous and it's not actually there, but, um, you know, that, that, that kind of stuff just hit me of, of,'cause I agree with what Madeline's saying. You're very masterful around doing that stuff. And it, it felt like a, uh, inversion almost between the two books.

Alli Parker (2) 26:32

Uh, thanks guys. Uh, we fill this podcast every week for my, for my thanks. Um. No, it's interesting. I hadn't really thought about it like that before. And I think what it comes down to is context. Like, like broad context as in societal context, because everyone knows Hiroshima, everyone knows that explosion. Everyone knows about the atom bomb, right? And so I started there because it's such an evocative image and like I've had so many people talk to me about how the opening line of cherry tree still, they still think about it, which is death was in her hair. And you don't know what that means until you kind of read through that opening prologue and you realize that actually it refers to the ash of the bomb and what's in that ash. And so I think because it's very easy to forget, I think, from a western perspective, that people were affected in that bombing. So I wanted to, to kind of. Honor that I wanted to honor what my grandmother had been through. She survived Hiroshima. It's the worst thing that she will ever have gone through in her life, and I would never go through anything that bad ever. And so to tell her story and to tell that part of her story, I wanted to A, honor her and honor what she went through. And b, when I was writing the, the, the chapter, chapter nine, you know, it was really difficult to write, but I realized that I had all this privilege in being able to look away, and I hadn't come across a lot of fiction that didn't tell that story in a nons sensationalized way. And I think it's very easy if you don't have a connection to that history and you lose the personal element of it and you lose the personal connection, it becomes very easy to sensationalize it or to diminish it or to focus all on the guys who drop the bomb or the Ola gay or the whatever. It becomes very easy to shift the focus away from what was actually happening on the ground.'cause it is so horrific what it was happening on the ground, right? And what these, the Japanese people actually went through. And so to kind of, I don't wanna say force, but to basically take my reader and just go, you, you are coming with me. Am I going? And you can't, you like, you have to read through to get to the end of this chapter. Like you can't skip ahead. Sorry. Was something that I really deliberately chose to do because what it then did is it gave Gordon and Cherry's story a broader context. And I think that's an interesting thing about particularly that period, you know. You get a lot of European World War II historical fiction books and they're set against the backdrop of like the Blitz or the Battle of Britain or you know, the bombing in Berlin. And like all sorts of stuff like that. Or even in like the concentration camps and things that was happening over in Europe. But I think from a Pacific War perspective, we don't get as much of that in Western media. And so I knew that for a lot of readers it would be their first time coming across something like this. And so I wanted to be like, you know these two teenagers that you're really in love with?'cause they've been kind of circling around each other and flirting with each other and they're quite charming and it's very cute. This is what they went through during the war. And this wasn't very cute actually. And so these are real people who went through real things. And so I wanted to have that. And then I think with Until the Red These fall, it was different because I was then introducing people to something that they weren't aware of. A lot of people weren't aware of these civilian internment camps in this history that Australia has around them. And so. I knew to introduce something like that, it was a diff, I had to kind of go character first and then context later, like introduce it more slowly. And it was, I guess more of a, a character based question of why is Amy behaving this way? Why isn't she telling her husband to shut up? And like, why is she not divorcing this guy even though, you know, it's the 1950s incredibly hard to get a divorce, but why is she putting up with this? And the reason she's putting up with this is because of this trauma that she has in her past that her whole family went through because she has been painted in this particular way and and tar by this particular brush of Imperial Japan. And I in no way wanted to diminish what the Japanese did during World War II because that was just as horrendous as anything else. But there were people as there is in every wartime context who had nothing to do with anything, and were just people who got caught up in. This mess of war. And that is, that is my opinion of war anyway. Like war is a mess. Innocent people get killed for no good reason at all. And so I wanted to present it in that perspective because then really what it becomes is the moment when Emmy reveals the Virginia, the truth of her history, you're actually like in, almost in, you're not in Virginia's perspective, but you're reacting the same way as Virginia to Emmy's story. You're going, oh, I didn't know we had internment camps. Although Virginia's like, oh yes, I've read about them in the newspapers. Of course, of course I knew about them. But like it's a surprise. It's something that you don't necessarily expect. And so I think in Red Leaves I had to start with a character and then broaden out. Versus with Cherry Tree, I wanted to, I guess give a context as to what had happened to even lead the Australians into Japan.'cause a lot of people didn't know that as well. So you know, Hiroshima obviously. Then Nagasaki a few days later and then like maybe a week after that, Ja Japan surrendered. And so everyone knows that. Everyone knows that context, but they know less of the context. So I guess that's, yeah, I don't know in terms of shapes of story, that's sort of why I wanted to lay it out that way.

Madeleine Cleary 32:24

Mark I, I was actually just listening to Ali and thinking that is this something that you also employed in Riding Wolf? Because you start with a fairytale, which is then slowly. Traveled, is that something that was deliberate?

Mark Mupotsa-Russell 32:38

Yeah, um, uh, it, it's, I I do try to be character, um, led because I kind of, um, I had that, uh, I still have to be very clear, want to be screenwriting kind of thing. Um, uh, so very structure, heavy sort of starting off. And, um, I find that can be quite, um, controlling and cloistering. So I, I try and be as character led as possible. So with, um, with Henry there, there needed to be this conflict immediately of, um, uh, like he's a 6-year-old. Um. Sort of almost seven as he would say. And, and he's, he's precocious for his age. I, I wanted this child who is kind of just on the verge of questioning a lot of this stuff. Like he, he believes it, but, um, he's also in that, but why kind of phase of like, um, uh, how does that make sense? And he's slowly starting to kind of, um, you know, have that moment that we all do where, where we start to realize that people can lie in the world and especially, um, that our parents aren't perfect. So it, it's, um, it, it's, it's very much like, um, I, I I tend to try and make as many complications and conflicts as possible. And, and so they, they're obviously because they live on the run because they're living off grid, um, they're automatically in peril or, or something like that. And then they've gotta go this massive distance, um, without being detected. While people are actively hunting them, um, that that's a very external kind of, um, threat and it's danger and all that sort of stuff. Um, but it has to be internal as well. And so it's, it's, um, Henry's kind of, um, perception is crumbling and, and he, he's kind of losing some of that stuff and his mom is having to kind of constantly regather these threads and, and, and change the story again. And shift it. And we're, we are kind of seeing her at breaking point at all times. But, um, he, he doesn't respect that, like children by nature don't sort of go, oh, I can see you're having a tough time, mom. Like, um, they're not gonna sit back and go, oh, maybe I'll, I'll stop the questions for a second. Like, there, there is nothing, there is no situation where he, he will not say what's on his mind to an extent, um, uh, until he starts to get confused and then he starts to like. Retreat into his mind a little bit. So it's, it's very much, um, for me it's, it's this starting, um, in deep peril and having this very, uh,'cause the, one of the other tricky points is that he has no agency. He, he doesn't affect the world really. He's, he's, he can't, um, he

Speaker 13 35:30

Well, he does. he

Mark Mupotsa-Russell 35:32

does. So he leads that. That's, Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and so that was what was tricky of trying to create those situations where a 6-year-old can affect the world and also, um, having him seem like he's trying to do something, even if we know it's futile or, or like,'cause he's, he's constantly active and he wants to be this superhero, all that sort of stuff like that. So it's, it's balancing those moments. I, I, I do. Often go back to basics all the time of, of sort of like, what does the character want all the time? And, um, having this character who it doesn't necessarily always matter what he wants as to how it's going to play out in the real world, that that was an extra challenge. Um, uh, and then yeah, just inventing, um, it's, it's, I I find it hard to talk about the, um, this aspect of it without it, it both, um, possibly sounding incredibly pretentious, but also, uh, maybe making it seem, um, a bit drier as a story. But the, the, um, the, the characters, uh, especially the male characters, um. I wanted them to be three dimensional. I wanted them to be actual people, but they are also, um, broader representations of archetypes and um, and kind of, um, often very problematic archetypes of, of like, um, they, they are, uh, this, this part of Henry looking around, um, for heroes. And what does he see be because the, the, um, uh, the big aspect of heroism that kind of fascinated me a little bit was that kind of, um, comic book, superhero idea of heroism versus real heroism. Like,'cause it, it is that idea of standing up and punching, um, something in that, fixing the situation. Um, and what, like, an example I always like to think of is, is sort of, um. We, we often frame, um, the fight against racism as standing up to the person yelling a slur on the bus, and like ideally everyone's doing that. Um, obviously there is an element of danger to that and I, I will be generous maybe and say there is a bit of, um, bravery to that. Um, but it doesn't fix anything like the, the actual methods of fixing racism are, um, institutional. They are showing up again and again and, um, uh, probably having very small gains fighting against institutional oppression. These systems are very, very smart and they're all encompassing and they don't let you kind of hit at one aspect and it's a lifetime and you might get a tiny gain and no one's gonna notice and you probably won't get a pat on the back. And that aspect of standing up to the person on the bus. a very masculine idea. I think it's the, I stood up, I punched out the, um, the villain and I got the pat on the back and the cheer and all was well with the world. And the aspect of the fight against the institutional side is overwhelmingly done by women and it's, it's much more community focused. And, and that, that kind of thing was just, um, something that I wanted to have. Henry, he, he can't think in those terms. He can't realize those terms, but he does start to question of like, what is this aspect of real heroism and real sacrifice as well? Um, because, uh, a lot of these people are putting their bodies on the line basically.

Madeleine Cleary 39:29

Mark, I'm not surprised you were banging your head against the wall while writing this book because just trying to grapple with all these things and from telling it from the perspective as a 6-year-old and conveying all this, is it really, really incredible. So, um, I wanna talk to you both now about your experiences publishing, uh, your second books. Um, I'm interested, and Mark, maybe we'll just stay with you. What, what did you learn about from publishing your first book Hit Women's Guide to Reducing Household Debt? What did you take from that into your second book launch?

Mark Mupotsa-Russell 40:04

Yeah, I think this is gonna sound ridiculous considering how we started this, but, um, polish your pitch, uh, like learn, learning those key points. Learning, learning how to, um, communicate. Um, and, um, uh, the, the, the balance is really tricky to get of like, um, uh, when you are writing it, when you are, um, uh, kind of thinking about it. You have to be massively artistic and you have to sacrifice everything for that and your expression of it and everything like that. And then when it comes out as a book, whether, whether you want to admit this to yourself and, and it is up to you how much you engage with this, but this is an industry and, um, you can choose whether you treat your book as an object or a commercial kind of property. Um, that is absolutely up to you. What's not up to you is the fact that everyone else will treat it like a commercial, um, product. And you need to be okay in understanding that. Um, if you aren't going to give those, um, tools to kind of books sellers and all that sort of stuff, those easy ways to um, kind of sell your product, all that sort of stuff like that, then you can't really. Be complaining if, um, people aren't able to see it as a product. So I, I think, um, uh, that, that's a, that's a tricky thing to be into because um, you know, capitalism and artistic expression are like diametrically opposed. It's very hard to switch your mind. Um, but I think if you are able to kind of go, okay, I was in artist mode. I wasn't thinking about, um, how this is actually selling. I was just trying to make the truest, most beautiful book I could and have these characters be real. That's done now because this book is printed and I'm not gonna be able to change it. I need to now think about like, how is a bookseller genuinely looking at this? And um, like I, I try and think in perspective when I'm writing a lot. I try and think of how a character would genuinely feel, even if their experiences outside of me try and apply a little bit of that to the actual selling itself of like, um, you know, both of you have extensive experience as booksellers. Um, and you, you'd know this way better than me, but like if you genuinely, if it wasn't your book. You didn't have this massive history of like all the emotion you put into it and how much you know, is there. That's true of pretty much every book there. Um, the fiction definitely and a lot of the nonfiction as well. Like if you were to walk into a bookstore and you literally just saw that book, like what is making someone interested in it and how are you getting past that gap? We all know how much stuff is getting thrown at us all the time and, um, being able to step back. Um, it's a really tricky industry so it can kind of give you a little bit of realism a little bit. And, and he says that like having no actual realism about his perception, but you, you can't see outside yourself. Completely. But it can help you sort of sit back a little bit and go like, okay, well I do have to realize that I decided to make this book. That was a little bit tricky. It was a little bit thorny. It wasn't easy to digest into one genre. It that the characters are making some decisions that might not make everyone feel good, and that's not something that typically sells blockbuster kind of thing. So like what's, what's the, what's the gap? And like I do think there are some elements of my book that are like, yes, they are page Tony, they are kind of like, um, book club kind of stuff there. It's big heart, you know, all that sort of stuff like that. Not necessarily talking about my book, but, um, think of those elements that if it was someone else's piece, you, you would, um, would attract you and just elevate them and push them and, and use those as your tools so that, that is something that, um. Probably helped a lot, a lot of it's learning from the experts. Um, you know, other writers, you know, ally was a year ahead of me, um, sort of in publishing her first book. And, um, that was really helpful'cause we, we'd had multiple chats where I, I kind of got a sense of what was sort of coming and, um, that, and, and lots of other authors who've, who've helped me also my publisher obviously that, that sort of stuff all going into the soup of it. Um, you're just a little bit more clear-eyed I think on the second book.

Madeleine Cleary 44:52

Hmm. I love that. I love that you have to split your brain and that gives permission to split your brain too. I think as creatives, we always cringe when we think we have to put our marketing hat on, but do away with the cringe. That's 2026 goal, I think. Ally, what do you think?

Alli Parker (2) 45:10

It is interesting because I totally agree with what Mark is saying, particularly about booksellers.'cause booksellers are the front line, obviously they're the people who put the book in into people's hands. Obviously you've got your your publisher's sale team and they get it into various people's hands. But then there's another step after that as well. And so I think for Until the Red Leaves fall, I was a little bit more prepared with the way that they could sell it. And so I would go in when I was doing my bookstore visits and they'd be like, tell me about your book. And I was like, oh, well basically it's yellow face meets the seven husbands of Evelyn Hugo said in the 1950s Melbourne theater scene. And they go, oh my God. And they could just see it immediately and they're like, cool. Easy. They don't even have to have read the book then. Someone comes in and goes, I want something a bit like Evelyn Hugo. And they're like, oh my God, read this. You know? And so it just makes it really easy and keeping a pitch really short, like you really only wanna be doing maybe like three sentence pitches to, to booksellers.'cause they've got so much to do and they're taking 15 minutes out of it, your, their day to let you sign all your books and then post for photos, put it up on the social media, do all the amazing stuff that they do. But they are busy people and they do sell hundreds of books a day. So I think going in, knowing how to market it and how they can sell it and who, what the audience is, is a really useful thing. And something that I figured out pretty quickly during actually the publicity of Cherry Tree, because I'm not a big intro, uh, extrovert. I'm much more introverted. I would much rather be at home with a book and my cat on the couch than going outside. If you ever cancel plans on me, I will probably be relieved. So all good. But so I, um. I realized how draining events are really quick with Cherry tree really, really quick. And, and so I realized that what I needed to do was actually create a, an a persona. So I have a persona, which I call Author Alley. And so basically when I'm getting ready for an event, I'm putting on my costume of author Allie and author Allie is calm, collected. She smiles a lot. She takes her time to answer questions. She's also not afraid to say no in a very diplomatic and polite way. If there is a question that she doesn't want to answer, she doesn't blank. She just says, actually, I'd rather not answer that. Could we try another question? Uh, and and she's very gracious and she has time for everyone who comes up and says, hi, your book sounds amazing, or, I loved your book and can you sign 17 of these for me? Or whatever. And so it was, that was really useful for me. And I actually found what that helped me with is that I was less exhausted after events because it was like at the end of the event, I could take Author Ally off and I could just be normal, Allie. And so I was definitely a lot better prepared the second time around for how draining the events were for me. Um, I think during some of the publicity about the foot of the cherry tree, I, I lost my voice after an event and so I knew that I needed microphones.'cause I can't project my voice really loudly without microphones, so I always request a microphone, like just little things like that. And then things like, and I think I actually said this on my last episode of the pod, but it was just like, or maybe I was, maybe this is even something that I was talking to you about Mark, but, um. In that period of when in the lead up to your book coming out and then a couple of weeks after your book coming out, you basically have to think of almost yourself like an athlete. You need to be eating well, you need to be sleeping well, you need to be drinking lots of water, staying hydrated, exercise, go to the gym, give yourself like the most amount of room you can to be operating at the peak level because you cannot half-ass it. Because audience will see straight through it and they will go to their social media and they'll be like, that was a really weird event with Ally Parker last night. Did anyone else notice that? Thankfully that has never happened, but it's just like if you are having an off day and you can't act through it, like you can't like pretend like everything is fine. The show must go on type vibes. Like you'll, you'll struggle. I think even maybe Madeline, we did an event, I think it might've been my event actually.

Madeleine Cleary 49:23

was just going to

Alli Parker (2) 49:25

And I started, I was, I think I was a little bit sick and so I started coughing'cause I was overheating when we were talking'cause the room was really hot. And so I just had to like, I had to kind of muscle through. But like, I, I got through it. Eventually I sort of managed to cool myself down with water and everything.'cause we had water on the desk obviously.

Speaker 14 49:42

So I remember, um, because, so for context, we were at, uh, books in bars at Knox City. Um, and I was interviewing Ali and I remember, uh, so Ali had had an intense publicity week leading up to this event. You had just gotten sick as well. You'd been sick for a few days, you'd been traveling into state. Um, when I saw you, it was like 6:00 PM or something. You hadn't eaten anything. Uh, so you weren't following your advice.

Speaker 4 50:09

I wasn't.

Speaker 14 50:10

So I think we, we bought you chips and made sure you eat chips.

Speaker 4 50:13

Yeah. So the bookseller's mom bought me chips.

Speaker 14 50:17

And then Pat bought another, an extra

Speaker 4 50:18

yeah. And then Pat, well Pat was great that night. Yeah. It was so good. It was great.

Speaker 14 50:23

But I remember you were amazing. Like you there. This event, there was like 60, 70 people you put on Author Alley Persona. And then I remember you had a large signing queue. You were, you know, chatting away. And then as soon as the last person left, I could just see your shoulders deflate and you were like, I need to go stare at a wall. And so I think that's an important lesson. Stare at a wall. Give yourself time to stare at a wall.

Alli Parker (2) 50:48

Yeah, yeah. I say, I say to my publicist, I'm like, I need a potato day. I can't do a back to back events.'cause I need a day just to sit on my couch and like just stare into nothing. And it's not even like I'm even doom scrolling or anything. Like I'll have a TV on for some kind of audio stimulation, but like, I just need to literally just be a potato on the couch and just let all my nervous system come back down to earth because it's, it's, it's a big

Madeleine Cleary 51:15

And I don't ever sleep after events as well. I don't know about you both, but I find it really difficult. So that's. compounding as well.

Alli Parker (2) 51:22

I think the other thing that's been a little bit easy for me this time around is a, I've known what to expect. So like, I think, uh, so on my, a couple of days after publication for Cherry Tree, I went and did bookstore visits with my sales rep in Melbourne. Jackie, shout out Jackie. I don't know if she listens to the pod, but I'm gonna

Madeleine Cleary 51:40

Yes. Hi Jackie. We love Jackie.

Alli Parker (2) 51:42

We do love Jackie. Jackie's the best, but, so we did bookstore visits for Cherry Tree and we did nine bookstores in a day. That's a lot of bookstores, that's a lot of talking, as I said, particularly then I know, like I know from that day my voice doesn't do that well. And so then when we did Red Leaves, we did 11 bookstores in a day. But I knew, so I had already hydrated really well. The night before, I had water with me. I got a tea. I didn't drink it while it was super hot. I waited for it to cool down to keep my vocal cords warm. When we were in the car, I was speaking quietly to try and rest my voice as much as possible. And so it was just like a day where I just knew what I needed to do to protect my voice. And my voice was better because of that. But we hit two more bookstores that day than we did previously, and I was basically, I had no voice at the end of it. And so it is just one of those things where you can just adjust your I, because it is, it is a performance essentially. Like you, you become a public figure when you put a book out. And so people come and they expect a certain thing from you. And you obviously, like, depending on your brand, obviously brand, the Mark and Pots Russell Brand, the Ali Parker brand, the Madeleine Cleary brand, we all have very different brands. Not that different actually. We're all, we're all pretty similar, but you know, like people expect certain things and that's why people send you beautiful things like emails and they tell you about how your book impacted them and they tell you their story and how it's connected in whatever way. And so. I don't ever wanna give that up because I think that's such a beautiful way of seeing how your art has connected with other people. But then I know that there are things that I have to do to protect myself, otherwise, I, I can't do that. And I know there are other authors who really pour themselves into events a lot. And there are other authors who hate doing events and don't wanna do it. And it's, whatever you want is absolutely fine, but it's very hard. Then if you're not doing events, it's very hard then to get the word out about your book. And that's, unfortunately, you know, authors have to do a lot of the legwork in this day and age. It's not like it used to be 70, 80 years ago where there was one review in a paper like gangbusters.

Speaker 14 53:50

Hmm. that's true. Well, all right. There's already so many amazing tips there. Um, before we finish, I wanna ask about screenwriting. Do you, and you are both, so you're both have a past history in screenwriting. Do you have any good tips for what you've taken from screenwriting into novel writing? Mark, I might start with you.

Mark Mupotsa-Russell 54:14

Yeah. Uh, so I think, um, uh, I say, I say this constantly, so I, I apologize to anyone who's heard me talk about it before, but I, I, I cannot drill it in enough. It's that it's that classic three questions thing of, um, what does a character want? What's standing in their way? What are they willing to do to get past it? And, um, that, that just always, if I have every kind of character looking at that stuff, it, um, it makes it feel very active.

Speaker 14 54:42

Okay. Go through that slowly please. Because this was amazing assistance when I had a block in my novel.

Mark Mupotsa-Russell 54:49

Oh, fantastic. I'm glad to hear that.'cause it, it really did help me. I think the original ready, um, the, the original kind of questions come from Aristotle. That sounds so much more wanky than, it's because almost

Speaker 4 55:02

lean into it. Mark, you are the least pretentious person I know. Just lean into it.

Mark Mupotsa-Russell 55:07

Well, it, it comes from poetics, which is like, I think it takes you about 35 minutes to read. If, if you want a really good, um, quick dissection of it, Aaron Sorkin. Uses it all the time. And he, he has some videos where he just talks about it. But you are, you are basically asking, three questions. The, the original advice I think is, is based around your main character, but I actually find it much more helpful if you do it for every single character You ask, what do they want? What's standing in their way, and what are they willing to do to get past it? And so you have that go, um, for every single scene you, it's, it's a great idea for finding your story in general, but like if you have it every single scene, then that second one, um, of like what's standing in their way. Ideally, a lot of the time that's another character, um, or another character's want. And so immediately you've got two characters in relationship. And maybe that's conflict. Maybe it means they have to work together. Maybe it's sort of like, um, your hero is like, I want this and um, I'm definitely gonna get it. And then they meet this other character who's stronger than them, either mentally, physically, whatever it is, emotionally. And so suddenly they have to go around that character. They change what they want or they have to develop the, they try and push through, but they get beaten back. And so they have to develop the skills to kind of, um, be better next time. And so next time they face that same character, their want has evolved a little bit, but they've got now the skills and the emotional fortitude to face it.'cause this comes from very mythological sort of sounding storytelling. But, um, it's much more powerful to think of it as an internal kind of journey rather than an external journey that if, if you keep throwing plot at stuff, um, it, which is a bit of a screenwriter kind of thing, sometimes it, it just gets really annoying and frustrating and, and, um, people can feel it if you start from inside the character. With their want. And then you throw in a couple of plot things here and there. You, you, I actually find that they kind of build the plot because they're just constantly having that momentum and forward movement and ah, suddenly there's this other character here and we're bouncing off each other and Oh, okay, that character, um, we kind of have the same want, but it's a little bit different. So do I need to change my thing or what? And, and you learn about the characters and, and so those, those kind of base, um, understanding,'cause I think, I think one thing. That broadly speaking, screenwriting has that, um, novel writing doesn't is a formal description of craft. So, um, a lot of novelists, um, can do amazing, astounding things with character. They've developed those skills, but they can't necessarily describe what they're doing. Um, and there is a, a negative side of overemphasizing craft because you start to make things sound stale and describe things in a way that isn't helpful. But being able to talk the same language as someone else and talk about these turning points, rising action, falling action, all that sort of stuff like that is really helpful. And, um, you don't want to rely too much on those structures and templates. They are really problematic, but understanding like. I'm stuck. I have no idea what's going on and going like, oh, well, you know, some very classic advice is that it's because your character hasn't, you know, faced the midpoint, hasn't, you know, all, all these belly of the whale, like all, all these kinds of terms that screenwriters have drilled into them. It, it does help. Like it, it can kind of help in that very wayward feeling that we get of being lost at sea.

Alli Parker (2) 58:59

I would totally agree with that. I think, um, one of the really great strengths of of screenwriting and screenwriting theory is, is structure. And it's interesting, mark, what you were just saying there about like not throwing too much plot at them, you know, make coming in added an internal journey for your character. Because often what happens is if you throw too much plot at a character, they become passive because things are just happening to them. And so like, there's a lot of talk as well about active versus passive protagonists, and you always want your protagonist to be active. And so really what that is, is something happens, your character makes a decision on how they're gonna react to that. And because of that choice that they have made, something else then happens because of that. It's not, it's an and then. Your character makes a decision and then this happens. Like it is a causality, the cause and effect of structural screenwriting, and that's something that I use a lot in my books. It, it helps with pace. I have read a lot of books on screenwriting. I love a midpoint. Midpoints are my favorite thing ever. Um, and so yeah, I think, I think definitely structure is something that screenwriting has given me. Like, I can't, I can't write, I can't write like you do Madeline. Like I'm in awe of the fact that you just kind of feel your way through and off you go. You're just like, yeah, yeah, let's just go down here today. I can't do that. I need to, not that I need to plan everything out, but I need to know kind of where I'm going and what I'm moving through. Because when I have a framework to work within it, actually it feels more creative to me because I know what paints it. I've got on my paint palette to play with, and so then I can. Envisage things more. Um, but yeah, I think definitely structure is, is my biggest strength. And then dialogue as well is something else that I've had a lot of compliments on. People tell me that my dialogue's really good and I think that comes from screenwriting as well because obviously you're imagining people saying it. I often read my entire book out loud to myself as well, just to in a kind of at a copy edit stage. And like I used to do that just with dialogue.'cause the big print, the action in a a screenplay doesn't really matter so much as long as it makes sense. But when it's a book, obviously people are reading the pages, so it all needs to be coherent. Um, but yeah, it's, there's nothing, nothing quite like when a character kind of introduces himself fully formed and you're like, oh, hey, are we gonna hang out for the next couple of years? That's nice. And I think I have that a little bit more with books than I do with screenplays, because obviously screenplays you create someone and then you give it away to someone else. You give it away to an actor who then puts their own spin on it and does things. And I've definitely had moments before where I've watched, I've watched an, the final broadcast edit of a episode of something that I've written. I'm like, oh, they said it like that. That's not, that's not how they were supposed to say it. So it's nice to kind of have, you know, in a, in a, a manuscript sense, in a, in a novel sense, to be able to kind of pull all of the strings and, and create it Exactly. As you want, knowing then that a reader is then gonna bring their own inflection and perspectives and, and their own biases and knowledge to something and, and go from there. But I think, um, there's something really magic about writing novels versus writing screenplays is though the screenplay is a, a collaborative document is you write, you write the blueprint, and then everyone else puts their spin on it. Whereas with a book, it's not a blueprint, it is the final copy that you're writing. And so, I mean, that's something really scary about writing manuscripts, but it's also something really freeing as well.'cause I, I know that my book's particularly like to make them as TV shows or movies. They're very expensive and it would take a long time and a lot of money. So at least I know whatever happens. Also, there are bad adaptations. We've all seen bad adaptations of our favorite books. Like I know that whatever happens, my version of at the Foot of the Cherry Tree are my version of Until the Rods Fall. There, they're in the world, they exist, people can find them. Whereas, you know, sometimes with the TV show, especially if it's an original TV show or original film, sometimes you don't always get what you want and you just have to kind of make it work in the edit and hope that people don't notice. Notice the seams. And sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. But yeah, it's um, it's definitely a different, different sandpit to play in, even though you're playing with similar toys.

Madeleine Cleary 1:03:41

Oh.

Mark Mupotsa-Russell 1:03:41

I, I just say as well, like,'cause I, I find, um, uh, Madeline one, one of the things I've loved, and I think I've said to you before about butterfly, women, like,'cause one, one of the reasons I, um. Uh, stick so close on that want and motivation is, I find like if you, if it's very clear what a character wants in a, in one scene, what they're trying to do, you can add a million other things. You can throw in, like clear tone, uh, like, uh, tone changes, like all these extra thematic things. Um, and the, the reader still feels grounded enough because they know what someone's trying to do With your book, like as I was reading it, um, there'd be all these like, like, because it's such a mix of, um, uh, genres and, and tones and all that sort of stuff. There, just as something new is coming in, like I'd sort of be reading and I was like, oh, I don't know if it's gonna be able to handle this. Like, you, you, you, you, you've got something you, and then every single time you'd pull it back and, and weave it in. And the fact that you did that, as you were saying of like kind of, um, that, um, is it they, they describe it as the headlights, whatever.

Madeleine Cleary 1:04:44

Oh yeah. Yep.

Mark Mupotsa-Russell 1:04:46

Where you're just seeing a little bit ahead sort of thing like that, that, that I found remarkable and, and kind of wonderful about your book.

Speaker 14 1:04:53

Oh, well that's interesting you say that, mark, because I mean, reflecting on both of your comments, I. I started this novel, I started an a novel, uh, a year or so ago, and I had to put it down because what I realized is that I was starting with a plot first, and it was really, I was just, it was going all over the place. Um, I was just throwing in random things and, and I realized that I actually didn't really know much about the character. I was just trying to burn everything down just to make it interesting. Um, you know, I think Stephen King says that just if things start flailing, like burn something. So I was like burning every second thing. Um, and I realized that it was all. Wrong. And, and because the, that character hadn't come to me fully formed, like in The Butterfly Women, whereas those characters, those women were really clear in my mind. And so flipping that and then starting with Character First has helped me better understand the novel. And so, yeah, I think I've said on this podcast before, like, mark and I had a, a beer after the Dandenong Rangers Lit Fest. And you asked me these three questions'cause I felt stuck and it was amazing. It just helped find that clarity. Um, so while I don't necessarily plot or have that framework, um, I, I do think that coming from it from a character first perspective has really helped at least provide the beats. But I must say for my book. two, I did end up halfway writing it and then realizing I had to plot out the rest of that. So it was a half, half 50,

Speaker 12 1:06:30

Come to the dark side.

Speaker 14 1:06:33

Because who knows who knew crime actually you might need to plot. Um, Okay. we are well over time. I have a thousand more questions for both of you, so we'll have to go and have a beer, I think, Um, and chat through those. Before we do go though, we'll always finish on, um, asking you your top tip for writers. Um, and I'm gonna switch the order this time. I think I started Ellie first at the very start. So Mark, you go first.

Mark Mupotsa-Russell 1:07:01

Okay. Um, so my, my general top tip is the one I, I said the first time, um, uh, on the podcast, which is like that being honest with yourself, being honest about, like ex super honest about how a character acts, all that sort of stuff like that. Um, so that you're not, ever cheating and, and be honest about the book being ready, all these sorts of things. That's still my generalized top tip, but. I've got a, to change it up, I've got an incredibly concrete one for, all the writers out there of a movie you should watch, I think.'Cause I, I actually re-watched this, a couple of days ago and re remembered that this is a big part of what made me obsess about perspective so much of every character's perspective. It's a film called Marette, which is, um, the Kenneth Lanigan film, um, famously troubled production. I think they filmed it in 2006 and it didn't come out till 2011. Uh, it's an APAC when it's, it's, it's an amazing thing. It, a reviewer I'd read about it said before that, um, or a critic was talking about how you could, um, you could take the perspective of any single character and it was holistic. That sounds like a, a weird sort of thing, but when you watch it, it is. Um, if you can watch the American edit, which is three hours long as opposed to two hours 40 or something like that, it, it is, um, it would've been on a bunch of people's best film of, um, the century list that people were doing, the quarter century. But basically it's about anapac When this teenager sort of, she goes, she experiences something quite traumatic that creates a, um, uh, kind of conflict in her mind of, um, what's the moral right thing to do. That's, that's a very generalized, vague thing to say. But basically she's in New York and it has this thing of, even as she's walking down the street, you'll be hearing conversations with, um, with other just random passes by, they'll be in a diner and there'll be, you'll hear the conversation of the other people talking first. I mean this as literally as I can, you could follow any single one of those characters, even from that snippet of dialogue. You hear it and you're like, okay, if I stuck with them long enough, I would experience what, um, something as dramatic as what Margaret? Oh, sorry. As, um, her name's Lisa. It's about a poet, but, um, but basically Lisa is gonna experience every single character has a point of view. Every single character is kind of right in arguments. That's another classic kind of bit of advice, but, um, I cannot guar, uh, so recommended enough for writers to look at and just sort of see how powerful it can be if you just have three dimensional characters populating your entire work. That's a very long, rambling thing, but I, I think it's a stunning, stunning film. Margaret.

Speaker 14 1:10:01

Okay. That's a first for the podcast. A movie recommendation for writers. Make Sure. you write that down. I've written it down for myself, mark. So I'll report back. Ali, do you wanna finish this off?

Alli Parker (2) 1:10:12

Sure. Um, I, I think the last time I was on, actually, I'm not gonna say what my top tip was the last time I was on the pod, so that you, if you're listening and you haven't listened to my episode, you have to go back and listen to it.

Madeleine Cleary 1:10:25

Very strategic.

Alli Parker (2) 1:10:26

but so this time I was, I wanted to offer a different top tip, and that is that, don't rush it. It's really, really, really easy, especially when you have like a little carrot of maybe publisher interest or agent interest, like right in front of your face. Resist the urge to take the bite, give your story the time that it needs. Give yourself the time that you need to get it right. Because I remember when I was like in the throes of trying to sort out my deal with my publisher, and even then I still remember that I was trying to get in touch with people and it was just not working and things were not happening. And I just kept saying to myself, this is an exercise in patience. And as writers, we are playing a very long game. We like, we're not going to be, not all of us are gonna be Trent Dalton and come out at swinging with like a huge million copy bestseller with voice followers universe First time around. It is a longer game than that. You are starting a journey that is gonna take years and years and years of your life. So just don't rush it. Make sure you're getting it right. Calm down. This is advice for me as much as anything else, but just calm down. Take a breath, make sure it's exactly what you want. Just because someone's giving you a yes, they might not be the right person to be giving you a yes. Make sure you have the right framework for you, for your story and what you want and what you're envisioning for it, because ultimately, if you don't get those things, then your journey might not be the journey that you want or expect. So just give yourself the time you need, give your story, the time it needs, but keep walking the path. You don't have to sprint. It's definitely a marathon. It's a really, really long marathon. It is definitely not a sprint, so just take the time, pace yourself, and again, eat well, sleep well, stay hydrated.

Madeleine Cleary 1:12:29

Very good, and that I think is a wrap. Thank you so much, mark and Ellie for coming on the podcast again.

Alli Parker (2) 1:12:36

Thanks for having us back

Speaker 2 1:12:39

See you.

Alli Parker (2) 1:12:41

as always.

Speaker 6 1:12:42

Mark and Ali's second novels, the Wolf Who Cried Boy and Until The Red Leaves Fall are available now in all good bookstores. And also just a quick warning that the movie Mark recommends may be triggering for some viewers as it does contain a disturbing scene.

1:12:56

I.

Speaker 5 1:12:56

Thank you for listening to the book Deal podcast. We're able to bring you these weekly writerly chats because of our amazing patrons. Join the TPD family by becoming a member of our Patreon community@patreon.com slash the book deal podcast. And if you love the pod, please give us a rating or review. And don't forget to follow us on Instagram and Facebook.