The Book Deal

Listening to Book 2, wading through the poo and figuring out the 'write' routine

• The Book Deal • Season 2 • Episode 74

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0:00 | 51:13

Tina Strachan, Madeleine Cleary, and Natasha Rai discuss recent author life updates and practical publishing-event etiquette. Tina shares launching book three of the Wilder Zoo series, “Neeka and the Great Search,” and they discuss gift ideas for in-conversation partners, the importance of stocking and pitching the partner’s books, and not feeling pressured to spend much. Tina talks about adjusting to a new writing routine, realizing she can’t sustain full-day creativity. Madeleine describes February becoming busier after a calm January, plans to restrict social media, and mentions discovering an unauthorized Melbourne walking tour based on her novel “The Butterfly Women,”. Natasha shares submitting book two to her publisher and reflects on how writing later books feels different from a first book, including higher expectations, risk-taking, and fluctuating confidence, and the group discusses how routine changes can affect creativity and productivity and how drafts can swing between feeling “terrible” and “good.” They talk about social media’s addictive design and strategies to limit it, and Natasha outlines her portfolio career schedule combining writing blocks, counseling work, and shifts at Roaring Stories bookstore. The conversation touches on the value of unpaid writing-related work, the difficulty of earning a living from writing alone, and measuring success beyond sales. They also promote applications for the Magnetic Island “Writers on the Reef” program through James Cook University (with flights and a stipend mentioned), and float the idea of a future Book Deal Podcast writers’ retreat.

00:00 Podcast Intro
00:43 Welcome and Acknowledgement
00:56 Tina Launches Book Three
02:09 Gifts for In Conversation
06:56 Tina Finds a Routine
10:46 Mads Social Media Rules
12:18 Unexpected Walking Tour
14:59 Tash Submits Book Two
18:00 Writing Sequels and Pressure
25:41 Routine Changes and Creativity
28:18 Daily Writing Without Guilt
29:01 When Books Flow or Fight
30:44 Time Blocks and Trust
32:07 Rest as Productivity
33:02 Tasha’s Portfolio Routine
33:50 Beating Instagram Dopamine
39:40 What Portfolio Careers Mean
42:08 Value Beyond Sales
47:27 Magnetic Island Residency Plug
48:57 Planning a Podcast Retreat
50:19 Embrace the Poo Finale

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Tina Strachan children's book author
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Madeleine Cleary | Author
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Natasha Rai | Author | Mentor

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Madeleine: Subscribe here...

Tina Strachan:

This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books.

Natasha Rai:

We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal.

Tina Strachan:

So no matter what stage of writing your at, we've got you covered. I'm Tina Strachan

Madeleine Cleary:

I'm Madeleine Cleary.

Speaker 3:

And I'm Natasha Rai.

Tina Strachan:

And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors

Madeleine Cleary:

one deal at a time. The book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners, the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.

Natasha Rai:

hey ladies.

Tina Strachan:

Hi. Morning.

Natasha Rai:

Hi Tina. Hi Mads. How's it going?

Tina Strachan:

Good.

Natasha Rai:

Tina.

Tina Strachan:

Yes.

Natasha Rai:

Tell me about what's going on. So you've just had your first like author life. Not working. Nine to five type routine.

Tina Strachan:

Yes.

Natasha Rai:

Kick in, yes.

Tina Strachan:

Routine. Hmm.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah.

Tina Strachan:

Can we call it that? Yes. And like when did, how long ago was it that we chatted? It was, well about a month ago.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah.

Tina Strachan:

Um, so a lot's happened. Um, in that time and I launched book three of the Wilder Zoo series Neeka and the Great search, which was lots of fun, and did the launch at, uh, Currumbin Wildlife Hospital, which was so fun.

Natasha Rai:

Mm-hmm.

Tina Strachan:

Um, and so amazing. And it was, um, amazing to support the Wildlife Hospital as well. And such a fantastic turnout from all my friends and family and bridle buds. It was great. Um, and who helped

Madeleine Cleary:

you launch it, Tina?

Tina Strachan:

Uh oh. Who was my in conversation partner? It was Sarah Armstrong, who is another amazing, uh, middle grade author and adults author as well. Um, and my son especially loves her. My oldest loves her latest books as well, so yeah, it, that was really fun. That was really nice.

Madeleine Cleary:

Can I ask you a question, Tina?

Tina Strachan:

Yes.

Madeleine Cleary:

What gifts do you buy your in conversation partner, because that's a thing, isn't it? And I think this is important for all the, um. Debuts coming up. Yes.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah,

Tina Strachan:

yeah.

Madeleine Cleary:

What do

Tina Strachan:

you find

Madeleine Cleary:

them?

Tina Strachan:

But I mean, do you, you know, to do what you feel is right. Um, and I guess you probably don't have to, um, but I did, and I think it's been a little bit different for each of my. In convo partners and, um, you know, and it's varied. So, uh, so like Sarah actually got her, um, this really cute little, uh, planter. That I'll have to show you a photo. It's so cute. And it's like these two little, um, round little plantar pots with faces and one's reading a book and another one's having a cup of coffee and it's super cute. Oh, cute. And I also got one for myself'cause it was so cute. Um, and, um, what else did I get? Oh, I got this really, um, beautiful candle that I got from the Quick Brown Fox bookstore. Um. From this company that supplies all this like really bookish, cute little stuff. So if you're stuck for an idea, normally you have an author, right? That's your convo partner. Look up like bookish gifts or gifts for authors. And that's how I actually came up with that. Um, but this was, yeah, and it was like a magic themed candle, so it was like. This, it had smells of, um, vanilla and parchment and dragon's blood. And it was like, so, I mean, it didn't really but it and had glitter in it. It was cute.'cause she's, she's got some books that are about magic and um, and just a couple little things in there. Um, yeah, so if I know the person really well, I can sort of try and, um, personalize it. But there's been times when I've done like a nice little local jam from where, from where I come from, um, with. Um, like a, a, a movie voucher, like a gold class fancy voucher or something like that. Um. I'm not as familiar with things that they would like, but I mean, if you know that they don't mind, um, wine or something like that. A bottle of wine's, nice. Um, plants, flowers, things like that. Um, yeah, try and

Madeleine Cleary:

personalize. You're so good with this. This is why I asked you, because I think I asked. This question last year when I was, had lots of Inc convo partners for various events, what do I get them? And you came up with all the great ideas. So this is, yeah, very helpful. And it's like part of that admin, isn't it? That that author admin burden, you're kind of like, oh, I have to think of this.

Tina Strachan:

Yeah. And if you have a lot though, like you had a lot, you could. Possibly spent your whole advance on, on

Madeleine Cleary:

gifts? Did I reckon? Yeah. I think I had like eight all laid out. But you don't have

Tina Strachan:

to. You really don't have to. And um,

Madeleine Cleary:

it's nice too though. And I feel like that, I mean, I guess it's, it does depend on your own financial circumstances, but it can be just something small. It

Tina Strachan:

doesn't have say a handwritten card. Seriously.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah. Or even like a gift voucher for a bookshop like your local.

Tina Strachan:

We know they like books.

Natasha Rai:

Yes.

Tina Strachan:

Nice bookmarks. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, that and like a little a candle or something depending on who it's seriously. Like that's, it's just, it really truly is the thought that counts

Madeleine Cleary:

because more than often your in convo partners aren't getting paid, um,

Tina Strachan:

and not getting paid. But it is always nice if you can to stock their books as well. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so everyone that I've done the, so I've had, uh, QBD come along to some of my last, um, uh. Book launches and um, they've, yeah, you can request and they normally do like to bring the other authors as well'cause it's beneficial for them'cause they can sell more, more books, right?'cause there's more books there. Um, and that's good for the in convo partner as well as they get a little bit of, um, exposure and hopefully sell a few books too.'cause they are doing it out of the kindness of their own hearts.

Madeleine Cleary:

And, um, I, I think also if you are, if your Inc convo partners there, often they won't. You know, feel comfortable pitching their own book to the audience. Not at all. So if you can pitch their book as well to everybody, give them a little rundown of what the book is, um, why they should buy it, why that's important. I think just giving them a shout out because, you know, it's not their event. And as a in convo partner, you know, you are there to support the other author, but I think it, and you, so you don't wanna like go and pitch it. But it's nice I think when the other author kind of does it,'cause it does generate a few sales as well for them.

Tina Strachan:

Yep. Yep. Which is important.

Madeleine Cleary:

Mm-hmm.

Tina Strachan:

So, yeah.

Madeleine Cleary:

Anyway, sorry, I just got, that was a No,

Tina Strachan:

that's okay. But yeah, no, that's, that's a really good point and it's really beneficial, but on, but honestly, just don't feel the pressure. Anyone who has these, um, just, just anything like e even just a card, a heartfelt card is, you know, and if you're good at handy crafts and things yourself, like, I know lots of people that crochet these gorgeous bookmarks and stuff like that probably means a lot more to them than anything else. So.

Natasha Rai:

Um, so tell me then, Tina,'cause we had a few chats on our kind of group chat about your new routine. What are you kind of figuring out? Mm,

Tina Strachan:

yes. So, yes, because I have, um, you know, taken a bit, a little bit of an extended break for a little while from work. I've been very fortunate that I can do that. And, um, it's for someone who's on the go 100% of the time. Like I, I've left you girls a few voice messages like. Just with notes of what I've discovered from my few days of, of this new routine is, I mean, I feel like I've only really had like a week to try that out because things were so busy leading up to the launch and then I was like trying to catch up on all the stuff I'd. You know, life admin and author, admin that I put to the side for so long. So yes, I've discovered that, and I think I did know this, but because I had such little writing time before I optimized that to the nth degree, like I did not let a second go. I, and I felt, actually felt a lot of anxiety about. Quick, like you've got, you've got 20 minutes while you're sitting in the car waiting for the school bell to go, must write, must write, get words down or edit or something like that. Um, which is actually very, could be very good for productivity, but you can't do that five days a week. It's not healthy, nor is it sustainable. Um, so that's been a whole new way of trying to get my mind around that. I still have not worked it out. Um, but definitely I think I've realized that, um, there's. You really only have as romantic as it sounds to have maybe like a six hour, eight hour worth of potential writing time. You can't write for that long. I mean, you could do like creativity and creating new words. I just don't think you can do that for eight hours every day. Um. So I think I found that I've got maybe a couple of hours in the morning, like maybe between like nine and 12 where I'm at my peak creativity and I think that's when I can do write new words. Um, and then after that, and then I think I just need a break, um, move away from it for a bit. Madeleine suggested I read and I'm like, oh my God, I love this reading. I've never really considered. That, but I love that because it feels like a bit of a rest, but I'm still, you know, immersing myself with, aligned with writing and storytelling. And then I think like the afternoons, like Tash, you also suggested with yourself, um, that's when you can do catch up on some emails or socials or your, or just author, admin, um, or you know, something like if I've got edit something that's a little, like line limits or something that requires a little less creativity. I'm still feeling like I'm ticking a box.

Madeleine Cleary:

Mm-hmm.

Tina Strachan:

Um, I didn't do so well with that last week, but that's okay. I'm getting there. Um, maybe in a month's time I can check back on.

Madeleine Cleary:

Well, it's only new

Tina Strachan:

impressions. You've gotta

Madeleine Cleary:

adjust, don't you? Do you, are you still getting up at four 30 in the morning?

Tina Strachan:

Yes. Yes, I am. Yeah. I just, I, I'm, because I,'cause you know why, the reason why, and I think it's like exercise as well, if I do it first thing in the morning, like nothing. Because if I, if I try to do it any other time during the day, I won't. I know that I won't. So I feel like if I do my writing in the morning, even if it's just for that hour, um, it. I will feel comfortable for the rest of the day. The whole day could go to crap, like the whole rest of the day. I could have like sick children or I'll be sick or, or anything. But I've still done that. I've still tick that box and I still feel, um, comfortable with that. So.

Natasha Rai:

Mm-hmm.

Tina Strachan:

That's, that's my plan. I don't know, but I did ask you girls what your, for some advice, so. Please, Tash, tell me, what do you

Natasha Rai:

think? No, like I really, I really wanna come back to that, um, because it kind of dovetails into some other things I've been thinking about in terms of writing and stuff. But I just wanna also see how Mads is going. How are you?

Madeleine Cleary:

Oh, all good. Uh, just it's funny, isn't it? January was so lovely. Like for me it was very,'cause I don't have kids, so it's not like I'm, you know, looking after kids over the school holidays or anything. And it felt very peaceful. I didn't have any kind of events. Work was pretty chill. Uh, and then as soon as. One Feb hit, it's just bang, bang, bang. And it feels like going kind of back to what it was, um, in the lead up to Christmas. So, um, I'm, I'm gonna start implementing some new rules and I only came up with these today. Uh, so we'll see how they go. But I've decided that. Uh, I'm not going to check social media on weekends and I'm gonna really cut that out because at the moment I've got this rule where I'm checking it once per day, uh, on my laptop. But that's been creeping back in, in Feb. I've been finding like I might check it in the morning and maybe at lunch, on your laptop still. On my laptop and then with with the afternoon. And then, so I may be checking it three to four times a day, and I find myself just starting to do that scroll. So I'm gonna be really strict, I think, no, no socials on weekends only. Check it after work. So 5:00 PM that's my author admin time, and I'm gonna treat it as admin. Um, rather than, you know, something just to like have that brain break, you know, sometimes you just, you just want to,

Tina Strachan:

it's not a break though, is

Madeleine Cleary:

it? It's not. It's terrible.

Tina Strachan:

It's so bad. It's the complete opposite even.

Madeleine Cleary:

Yeah, exactly. So I'm gonna try and implement that and get back to where I was I was at in this very peaceful kind of state and creative state, Jen. So that's gonna be what I'm doing. And then the other very interesting thing that happened. Um, I'm not sure how often this happens to people, but I got a message from my dad who'd been contacted by one of his friends who alerted, uh, him to a walking tour available in Melbourne on the Butterfly Women. So this, this company has developed this entire walking tour based on my novel, which is both cool, but also. It's strange to see you see that up there.

Natasha Rai:

Well, it's strange because it sounds amazing given that how you found out, they haven't obviously spoken to you about it.

Madeleine Cleary:

I mean, it's amazing. Like it's great.

Natasha Rai:

It's totally amazing. Yeah.

Madeleine Cleary:

So great and so cool. And, um, on the sort of a walking tour advertisement, it like lists places that I've made up in my head. So it's like we'll go to the Papillon and the White Heart and you know, Magdalene and so it's actually not

Tina Strachan:

real.

Madeleine Cleary:

Well, I mean, it's,

Tina Strachan:

maybe it's a virtual reality one, which would also be super cool.

Madeleine Cleary:

Yeah, it's, that's

Tina Strachan:

a good idea.

Madeleine Cleary:

So anyway, but I guess it's interesting to know for writers that, um, and I spoke with my publisher about it, uh. They can't use the image of the novel in the ad'cause that's a copyright issue. But anyone can kind of go and take your IP and develop something and that's cool.'cause it is, it is, I suppose, you know, advertising the book like it's free advertising. Um, and yeah, so I'm tempted just like. Put on a hat and

Tina Strachan:

yeah,

Madeleine Cleary:

on the tour,

Tina Strachan:

please incognito, please. Next time I'm down there. I'm doing that. Yeah. Any listeners

Madeleine Cleary:

down there? I just, I go, I guess for anyone listening, like, um, I haven't endorsed this tour, so I can't say if it's accurate or not, but if you are interested in a tour of the Butterfly women, um, and of that era of Melbourne, let me know because I'm thinking maybe, maybe there's a market for this.

Tina Strachan:

I think there is. I think it would be really cool. But the, the selling point is. Like you doing it? Is that your thing? Would you

Madeleine Cleary:

Alright, I'll do it. Oh my God, you get

Natasha Rai:

sold out in seconds.

Madeleine Cleary:

I've always wanted to be a tour guide. Like you know, you see those like, oh my god, you historic, my god. Such a good

Natasha Rai:

tour guide. Oh my Lord.

Madeleine Cleary:

And you see those like old retired ladies that take them around, like volunteers. That is my dream job in future.

Natasha Rai:

Really? I remember when you were taking me around that. Yes. And I was like, this is amazing.

Tina Strachan:

And the real, and it has to finish with gin tasting. Right, of course, obviously. Oh, okay. Of course. Mm-hmm. Stay tuned, everyone. This is gonna be amazing. You need to, I'm booking my flight.

Natasha Rai:

I

know.

Madeleine Cleary:

Alright, we'll keep you guys in the loop then. Yeah. How about you, Tash? How is, how's your, what's your update?

Natasha Rai:

Um, so I've been,'cause all, okay, so I've been thinking about book two'cause I've just. Submitted it back or returned it, I should say, or given it, I don't know yet.

Tina Strachan:

Congratulations.

Natasha Rai:

I'm sorry Enough that I can't even speak.

Tina Strachan:

Celebrated. Yes.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah, it's, it's big. I just sent it back to Tom, my publisher, and I was just thinking about the whole feeling of it. So taking, putting aside all the publisher deadlines.'cause I was just thinking purely about how it is to write a second book or other books. And Tina, you'd be a bloody pro at this now. Um. But you know, like I know that Matthew had that great interview with Martin Pot Russell and Ali Parker about this, and, but I was just thinking purely from a craft point of view and routine point of view, like. What's different? What's the same in terms of how you approach a second or a third novel,

Madeleine Cleary:

especially after you know that it may be published? Because I guess with your first book, when you're writing it, you're writing it for yourself.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah. And I mean, maybe I'm in a different place then, because I think Allie. Oh no, I think it was Mark who said it in your, in your episode about,'cause you'd had a bit of time, he'd written other manuscripts. So I'm in the same kind of experience as that where I've written other manuscripts and I, I'm returning to them now. But it's, so yes, there is the possibility that there might be published, but also I wrote them at a time where I didn't know that.

Madeleine Cleary:

Mm-hmm.

Natasha Rai:

But also going back to them. I am just noticing like new feelings and new things coming up that I'm like, this is so interesting. Like onslaught, I was just writing in, not in the dark so much, but just writing, not knowing what I was doing and getting beautiful feedback from editors and other people and just incorporating that and ah, you know, just hoping and going and whatever. Whereas like this one, it feels. It feels harder, not as in the actual writing of it, but my feelings towards it are a bit more complicated.'cause I'm like, it's not at the standard right now that I would like it to be when I do a direct comparison of where Onslaught was at the same time when I was showing it to people. So not even a publisher but just showing it to people. Um, and I'm like, and there are things about it that I actually don't know how to fix. I had the same experience with Onslaught, but this is different in that it, it's a more, it's supposed to be a more, and I'm doing air quotes. I don't know why.'cause no one can see it except for you two. But it's meant to be a more polished draft. And also my routine this time around is different. Like onslaught. I was writing like what you said, Tina.'cause I had a corporate job at the time, so I was writing on planes. When I had to do work trips, I was riding my one hour every morning before I had to go to work. Whereas now I have dedicated riding days, so I have. What feels like more time, but. It just feels a little hazy in a different way, and I was just really curious what it's like for you two when you've been writing, like follow up manuscripts or manuscripts after your, your first, when your case Third Tina.

Tina Strachan:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, but I think mine might be a little bit, excuse me, different. Um, because they are very much, uh, so I have got three published, but they're all in the same series, so the characters are already there, and it's known characters and known worlds. I mean, they change a little bit. So, and that's such a huge part, right, of. Your story. Um, I mean, and maybe then it's also a little bit different and harder in different ways in that because it is known characters, known worlds, how do you write new stories that don't seem like they're repeating or aren't so similar? So I think that was probably my, my biggest thing. Although I have 1,001 kinds of adventures that I could send some kids on in zoos and with wildlife. So, so it wasn't, I guess, too hard there, but. Yeah, you do wonder. And I think also timing. So I hadn't even had the first book come out yet, and I'd written all three. So I didn't know feedback. I didn't know how the first one went. So yeah, I think I was, I still had that beauty of just write, it still felt a little bit like writing. Quietly on my own, although I had deadlines. Whereas for both of you, you have, your books are out and published while you are, although actually created it before Onslaught had come out. But this is different now. We're talking about getting to a point of polishing, which still is a lot of work. Um, sort of, I guess knowing how your previous books have gone as well and how they've been and what your, your readers, I think, are expecting as well, so that that all plays a. It plays a part, doesn't

Madeleine Cleary:

it? Um, I wonder if, if also you are rubbing up against the fact that you are, you are a different writer than who you were. Totally. You wrote this manuscript and my agent, actually, Sam, he made a really interesting point, um, to me a few months ago. He said, what you went through with. The editing of the butterfly women was in itself an intense masterclass where you will learn and pick up skills that you didn't have. It's almost better than going to university for four years, like you did it all within that really intense period. So you're gonna take those skills into your next books, um, not just the writing of the books, but also. The, the editing and how you structure and how you think about it. So maybe what's happening Tash, is you are looking at this manuscript and because you've had, you've gone through these intense, you know, period, you are thinking more about structure'cause you know what you can produce.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah. But also just in our conversations between the three of us, I've also noticed that all three of us are. Trying or experimenting with things as at our comfort zone.

Tina Strachan:

Mm-hmm.

Natasha Rai:

So I think that's also part of it, isn't it, like as a writer, regardless whether you're published or not, I mean that helps in terms of confidence. But if you are writing like your first book, you write it and you don't, maybe you know what you're doing, maybe you have an idea, maybe you don't, who knows? But you do it. And then your second book,'cause you learn stuff, obviously. But I, I feel like. I'm taking risks in a way I wouldn't even have thought to do before, like these ideas that are coming or forms that I wanna play, but that I'm like, there's no way. Or I would've read something like that and gone, wow, this is amazing. I don't know how to do that. And, and it feels like that comes out. But I remember Tina, when we were in Magnetic Island last year, and you were talking about some ideas that you had and they were quite different. And, and in Matt, I know that you've definitely talked about books two and maybe a book three in terms of what you're writing, but just playing with something new and different form and

Tina Strachan:

Yes.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah.

Tina Strachan:

Yes.'cause then that's also a consideration, isn't it? Is um, I guess that readers liking your work and then. Um, look, writing is a consideration. Do, do I write very similar to what I've just produced, or do I write what's calling to me? Um, can I make them both work? Yeah, that's, that's a consideration too, isn't it? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, so when you are going out.

Madeleine Cleary:

Sorry Tina, you go.

Tina Strachan:

Oh no, I was just saying, so when you are doing all these extra risky things, Tasha, you sort of thinking, is that in your mind?

Natasha Rai:

Yeah. I'm like, oh my God, am I kind of totally screw this up? And is this to kind of fall flat and is this just a steaming pile of crap or can I. Because you know, like it might be, I'm sure it, well, I'm not sure, but I imagine this happens to you, but you know, when you're writing like an early draft or even any draft and in your head you have a vision and you have like an idea of what it would sound like, what it might look like, and then you read it and you're like, Ugh, this doesn't sound like anything. That's my head. The hardest heart

Madeleine Cleary:

always. Yeah. I, I, my mindset changes when I'm writing new words, like this current manuscript I'm writing, which is actually. Book three. Um, now, um, and. Within the hour, I go from thinking this is a pile of stinking poop and no one's going to like this, and this is really shit to, oh, this is actually quite good. I'm enjoying this. Oh, I think there's something here. And that, that just flips like every five to 10 minutes. Yeah, and it's. It's really bizarre, isn't it?

Natasha Rai:

Oh, I'm so glad you said that.'cause I have that all the time and I thought I was like somehow developing like multiple personalities. It's

Tina Strachan:

not No, me too. Let, let's just, let's just think, say that that's a normal thing then, and we should all just accept that. And I do, and we, we do learn from that as well. And I think that's the, that's the. Beauty of it, I guess, and I guess for all new writers out there, just accept it as part of the process. It's a hundred percent just your natural thought process for some reason. Uh, we do it to ourselves, but yeah, so now when it does happen to me, I, I still question it and I go, this is a stink P poo. And it's like, or I just, uh, I just can't see it in. You know, with fresh eyes and, and someone else who's reading it probably doesn't see this, but yeah. Is it a pile of poo or do I just need a minute to, to get back to it and may maybe don't take it so seriously now.

Natasha Rai:

And do you think like when you go from that swing from maybe this is a pile of poo to this is actually okay, oh, I'm really enjoying this. Do you think it's because we are genuinely, like maybe we've written a couple of sentences or a paragraph of. Seen, but there's just some beautiful little gold strands in there that we are like, yes, here's the evidence that it's something good.

Madeleine Cleary:

Yes. And I think something connects and you sort of, it's when you don't really know what's happening. I mean, for me that's a normal'cause I'm a pants, I don't really know what's going on. I don't really know what this book is. Mm-hmm. But then something happens and. You start, it's like an unraveling. You're like, oh, maybe this is what this book is actually about. Mm-hmm. And you get that tingle realization.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah, I'm getting it now. Just hearing you say that.

Madeleine Cleary:

But then it becomes a piece of poo in the next chapter. So you know what though? I'd actually be concerned if I was writing new words and the whole time I'm thinking. God, this is great.

Tina Strachan:

I'm so good.

Madeleine Cleary:

Amazing. Like this is the best. That's a red

Tina Strachan:

flag.

Madeleine Cleary:

That's a red flag.

Natasha Rai:

Does anyone think that?

Madeleine Cleary:

I dunno.

Tina Strachan:

They may, but I dunno if they've had much published because it's gotta be okay. It's gotta be weird.

Natasha Rai:

So here's my next question, both of you. So given that this is kind of. All in the mix when you're writing the next thing or the new thing. How do you think your, and I know Tina, yours is really new, but how do you think a change of routine,'cause we've, all three of us had changes since we've written our first books in our routines and time. How do you think that impacts either how you feel about the book or your creativity or your um, productivity?

Madeleine Cleary:

So when I wrote The Butterfly Women, I was working overseas in a really intense job, um, five days a week, full-time.

Natasha Rai:

Mm-hmm.

Madeleine Cleary:

Uptime six days. Um, so writing in the cracks was, yeah. Very much what I had to do. Kind of similar to what Tina and yourself, Tash were saying. Um, so it was early mornings. It was, you know, late, late in the evening. Um, and that took me about, it took me about 10 months to write the first draft for that. Um, which doesn't sound that long, but for me, that's actually quite a long time to, to write a book. Then, um, when I got the contract, I wrote this other novel, contemporary novel, um, in like two months, and I actually gave myself time to take leave from work'cause I got the contract. So I used my advance. To take two weeks to just be a full-time writer. And I actually, um, I was really highly productive in that time. I don't know if I could sustain that though. Like, I don't think I could, you know, I was writing, I, I went back to my diary about it and I was writing like 7,000 words over three days or something and just like absolutely smashing it. And I think that that's probably, yeah, not gonna work for every, everybody. And it probably was a little bit tricky. Then last year I wrote, um. The book two for my historical series. And again, that happened really quickly, but I felt like I had more time because I, um, took a day off work and, um, work was not as intense, I suppose, as being overseas. And that felt also different. And, and now I'm writing. Third historical book and it's a lot slower. And it is, it's gonna be more like the Butterfly Women. I think. My life isn't that crazy, like I'm, you know, I work four days a week, but I've got time, I've got way more time than I did with Butterfly. Um, but I think this book actually needs. Uh, a longer time. So it's probably gonna take me six to nine months to get this draft down. It can't go fast. So I think you've gotta listen to the book maybe, and to develop a routine around it. I don't think there's gonna be ever a routine that's gonna suit me for every single book. Like it's not gonna be a generic routine, it's just about finding it. So I've done away with word counts for this book, um,'cause I don't wanna feel guilty. About it. And I'm, uh, if I feel that reluctance to sit to, to dive into the manuscript, I push past that. Like that's a big routine thing for me. Like, I wanna try and do something every single day with it, even if it's just 10 words. So that's part of, that's always been part of my routine and I think it's important. Um, and I also know that I'm gonna have to take breaks from this book, um, because I'm about to go into structural edits with the butterfly, butterfly women with book two historical. So I know that there's gonna be big. Gaps between this book, and I just have to accept that.

Natasha Rai:

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I really, really like that idea of listening to the book.

Tina Strachan:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. Some books just flow, and regardless of what your routine looks like or what your pressures are in your day, some books just flow out of you and some just need to be pulled out a little bit more and tugged out a little bit more and thought about, and I think that's exciting. I agree. I think every, every manuscript that I write is. It comes differently. You know, some, some is. You know, completely pantsing for most of it. And then others is, it'll, it's all just there in my mind anyway, so I kind of just, I know. And so, you know, I can, I can like dump it onto a page and somewhat plot it out'cause it's already all there. Um, but I think that's exciting. And I think, yeah, I think that the take homes from that is like more time could lead to less productivity potentially. Um, it, it just depends and just, I guess reigning that in.'cause I know some afternoons I'll just. Try and push through, but I'm, I'm literally just staring at the screen for three hours and I'm like, oh, well I could have, I actually should have just, I should have put it away and completely done something else. Um, and I think, yeah, I think don't force it

Madeleine Cleary:

is, yeah,

Tina Strachan:

is the thing. Don't think I must, I've got three hours. I must write for three hours. Because thinking about it is product. You know, thinking about the story and the world and everything is actually progressing. It, it doesn't have to be words on the page. Um, and certainly not, you know, every, and the other thing is everybody has their own routine and their own method. And I think especially when you're starting out, you, you're thinking there must be some right way to do this, or there must be some rules. And I think there's not, there's no right or wrong way, and you certainly can't. You know, try and copy someone else because it might not be for you.

Natasha Rai:

Exactly. So, yeah, and I also think like, you know what we've all described about where we have snatches of time, like, because you know that you can make the most of it. But then when you take that mentality, like, you know, even Mads, when you said you had two weeks off. Um, you took some leave. You, you always knew that it was finite. Whereas when you, when you shift your work schedule into, say, working like nine to five type thing, fewer days, and you have a dedicated day, I think there's needs to be, there's always a period of adjustment where you have to, where not have to, where you start to go, oh, I don't have to sit and hammer something out for, you know, as you said, 10, about eight hours or whatever. I have this stretch of time. For as long as I need it. And then something shifts inside and, and you start to trust it. And it's not like, oh my God, quick, if I don't have it now, it's gone. Maybe. Well,

Madeleine Cleary:

and I think too that you, if you're starting to feel guilty,'cause you've got say, like you said, Tina, three hours in an afternoon and so you feel you, you probably wanna be able to sit down with a book. And dive into something else in a new world. But instead you feel, no, no, no, I need to do this. This is my job. I'm gonna have to sit down and do this. And you don't produce that much and then you feel guilty. Mm-hmm. And that's an awful feeling. Yeah.

Tina Strachan:

I know.

Madeleine Cleary:

Like you don't wanna feel, you wanna feel nourished, I think. Not guilt.

Tina Strachan:

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, even in our last conversation we were like, what are our sort of goals for this year? And I believe I said rest, and I was like, I'm gonna try and fit rest into every day. And have I done that? No, not really. Um, but, but that's so important and it's a priority. And it is that, you know, whole thing, I, we probably bring it up or I, I do in most of our, um, chats, you know, that whole thing of, um, you know, if, if you're busy that saying, you know. Everyone should meditate for an hour, but if you're super busy, you should meditate for two. And it seems counterproductive, but it's not because it's basically just saying if you take that time and you reenergize yourself and you refresh yourself, you're more product productive in that shorter period of time. Then if you're trying to spread it out over those longer periods, um, it sounds counterproductive, but I totally agree with that and need to listen to my own advice.

Madeleine Cleary:

Will you do that, Tina? Yes. Asha. I'm interested in your routine because, you know, if you think about when you were writing Onslaught to now, like you had, so obviously in C you had a corporate job writing onslaught, but now you've got, you've got that portfolio career, you've got multiple different hats that you wear. How has your routine changed?

Natasha Rai:

Uh, so okay, so I know that I am. In terms of my own work, I'm better in the mornings. So after like lunchtime, I, I, I, unless I'm on a deadline or I'm, like you said, Tina doing edits or something, I, I can't really do creative flow or something's really grabbed me. Like last year I started something new and I could find, I was writing. Anytime all the time. Anyway. So usually that's the book that's

Tina Strachan:

listening to

Natasha Rai:

the book, isn't it? That's the book. Yes, exactly. That's, listen to the book. I'm use that as a little slogan from now on, I'm listening to the book. Um, so I've now switched off Instagram. I've logged out of it on my laptop and I disabled it on my phone from Friday to Monday. So, so I've been That makes sense.

Madeleine Cleary:

Yeah. Great.

Natasha Rai:

The last couple of days I've been noticing, I've been like, I just quickly enable and open and I'm like, nah, gotta stop such a rain. It's so, such a, yeah.

Madeleine Cleary:

Why does your brain, is it just a habit do you think? Is

Natasha Rai:

that, yeah, it's just because sometimes if I get up really early'cause I can't sleep, and I'm like, well actually technically I'm still asleep, so I, this is like free time, so I can just quickly check Again, total opposite

Tina Strachan:

to sleep. I

Natasha Rai:

know, I know these stupid leaps that my brain does, like just do that and it doesn't count and I'm like. It's free.

Madeleine Cleary:

Does change though. Your brain will change. I found when I was off Instagram for two months, sort of December, Jan, I wasn't thinking like that. I wasn't Yes. My brain. Yeah. But then as soon as you,

Natasha Rai:

I know it's from dopamine hit. Yeah,

Tina Strachan:

it's the do. Yeah. Look, we are all human and I know that's what we're programmed to do. Dopamine. And you know, like the Amy Kaufman episode earlier, this, the, this year, she, and she said it to us before, she's like, I can't compete with the thousands and thousands of, you know, um. Scientists and neuroscientists that have helped Instagram and all other social media program and create this beast that that actually does trap us and a us Yes. Sucks us in.

Natasha Rai:

Yes.

Tina Strachan:

Sucks us in with the stupidest little bits and pieces like, oh, I got a little. A little heart up there. Someone's like, my photo, you know, we, that we, that's we're not silly for doing that. Like that's exactly their plan. And she's like, I can't compete with that. No one can compete with that. So she just, um, has a program that shuts it off. Mom, she has that one hour day.

Madeleine Cleary:

I also downloaded that program after she gave that advice and I kept disabling the program.

Tina Strachan:

Well, that's the thing. That's the thing. See, and that's not your fault. It is literally doing that to your brain. I know. I do have the program. I've just got the free one though. And so sometimes I get really annoyed at myself. And um, so with the free one, so it's called Freedom, the program with the free one you can. So I can't program it to shut down every day unless I pay for it. But the free one will let you just shut everything down for like two hours or something like that. And so if I catch myself and I'm like, oh, this is ridiculous. I'm on it again. I can just turn that on and it, but you can override it. You really

Madeleine Cleary:

can. You can. And I kept ignoring it and then feeling bad and guilty every time I was ignoring it. And I was like, oh no, I'm just gonna delete the app. And then the act of having to reinstall an app. Is enough of a, a barrier? Oh,

Tina Strachan:

yes. Mm-hmm. Yes.

Madeleine Cleary:

Then having just to, you know, click a button to say disable, I think. Yeah.

Tina Strachan:

Mm-hmm. I actually thought about getting a, um, non-smart phone.

Madeleine Cleary:

Yes.

Tina Strachan:

Like just going old school.'cause I

Madeleine Cleary:

Have you heard of Brick as well? Like there's, I have

Tina Strachan:

seen that

Madeleine Cleary:

this big brick where it just turns your phone into like a dumb phone.

Tina Strachan:

A dumb phone. Yeah. And

Madeleine Cleary:

it's very

Tina Strachan:

physical. Yeah. I mean you could just take everything off and then it's a dumb phone. Right. But it's kind of not like it. They make it very tricky for you.

Madeleine Cleary:

Yeah.

Tina Strachan:

But I think of all the things that I'll need, like what if I'm out and about and I have a question?

Madeleine Cleary:

Yeah. Or password. How do I find

Tina Strachan:

the answer?

Madeleine Cleary:

Apple Pay Google Maps. Yeah. These are like practical things that's

Tina Strachan:

carrying. I know they've really sucked us in anyway, but when it comes to Instagram, yes. You did have a really good, um, technique though, Madeleine, a little while ago, didn't you? Where you, where, wasn't it your husband had the passcode or he had to do, he was, was two factor authentication.

Madeleine Cleary:

This was when I was writing book two last year. Well, the historical book two. Um, I should come up with a name for it anyway. Um, yeah. And I couldn't be creative while also on Instagram, so I just gave Pat. Yeah. And then he could check and he could let me know if there's anything. And it was so good. I would highly recommend that. But I asked him again this time. He's like, I can't. He's like, please man, learn. I don't wanna do that again.

Tina Strachan:

I'm not your pa.

Madeleine Cleary:

It was a lot of responsibility. Did I, I tell him, he used to comment on random things and I'd like, he'd show me the comment, like, why did you write that? And then I'd edit it and anyway. You were, you were talking Tash. Sorry, we, I interrupted you, I think.

Natasha Rai:

No, no, no, no. It's, I was just on my, so anyway, I've disabled that and it's working most of the time. Um, so Mondays is my kind of writing day. So I try and write first thing in the morning, and I find that sometimes my brain will go, but don't forget, you need to do the, you know, your substack, or don't forget, you need to get back to that person. I'm like, no. No. Mm. So first thing in the morning, usually till about midday or one I can write. Um, and it's pretty good. Like I, I just get up for breaks, like to make a cup of tea or whatever, but it's nothing. I can do that now. And then the afternoon I usually read, so at the moment I'm reading a few manuscripts for different writers. So that's when I do that reading and, and then I do the time boxing where I put in like all the things I need to do in the afternoons. And then Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday is a, Tuesday is a blended day of counseling admin and writing admin. And plus my writing block in the morning, Wednesday and Thursday are full counseling days, so I don't write at all. Um, and then Friday I have. Again, writing block in the morning and then whatever in the afternoon. And now, because I'm doing a few shifts at roaring stories, um, so if if that that happens then, then I just do the admin in the afternoon afterwards. Yeah.

Madeleine Cleary:

You are the epitome of a portfolio career lady. Yes. That's amazing.

Natasha Rai:

I really enjoy it. I never thought I'd enjoy it so much. It's

Madeleine Cleary:

cool.

Natasha Rai:

And again, it's like this kind of thing, you know, but it's, it's the same thinking around like writing a book Many years ago, I'd, I'd met people who had this kinda life and I'd be like, that sounds so cool, but I could never do it. And then you do it and you're like, of course you can. Yeah. Yeah.

Tina Strachan:

Do we have an,

Madeleine Cleary:

oh no, you go Tina.

Tina Strachan:

No, I was just gonna say, we have an episode on portfolio careers, don't we, Madeleine, for those who haven't heard that or know what that is, but, um, it does sound fantastic. Um. Tash and Yeah, so it's, it's about. Sort of doing, not just aiming to get your, I guess, your income all paid from one particular, uh, source, which is very hard, especially if you want that source to be your books. Um, but it's, you know, finding the other roles that you have joy in, especially if you want it to be writing, finding things that are. Align with writing, perhaps.

Natasha Rai:

Mm-hmm.

Tina Strachan:

Um, but you have your other passion, Tash, which is counseling.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah. So at the moment, my therapeutic work is my main income. Mm-hmm. Like I can't even, I don't even. Firstly, I don't earn, you know, not even close to a livable wage from books stuff or related. So I have just discounted that and any money that comes through that I use for things like training for counseling or professional development for counseling or whatever, you know, bills. Yeah. So.

Tina Strachan:

Yeah. But then working at Roaring Stories. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Is a nice little

Natasha Rai:

addition, isn't it? Oh, I love it. Especially just getting to see all the titles coming in. Um, like yesterday it was so cool yesterday on my shift, I got to input all the orders that they've already made with the reps, um, into the system so that the label's ready to go, just to see. And it was. Fascinating to me to see how this particular bookshop of what they're buying

Tina Strachan:

Yeah.

Natasha Rai:

Like titles. And I was like, wow. Like, you know, 25 copies of this crime thriller that's coming out, um, by a established author and, and, you know, but one copy of this cookbook. Just stuff like that that I was like, how, like I'm just really getting a sense of a, the type of readers that that must come into the shop and also like the type of, mm-hmm. Offer that they are making to, to people. Mm-hmm. So, oh, so it's so interesting.

Tina Strachan:

Yeah. And it's all really thought out, isn't it? What, how they, how they make these decisions. And we also have an episode where, uh, we chat to, uh, a bookseller too. Yes. Don't we, Madeleine? Um, that, um, we, yeah, it gives a good insight into behind the scenes of book selling as well. But you've got almost the whole package there, Tash. That's really exciting. I

Natasha Rai:

know. Now I just need to go get a job in like publishing.

Madeleine Cleary:

All the writing and things and of what you were saying too, Tash, about like earning a living from writing and everything. I think, um, it's still part of that portfolio career.'cause even if you don't get money associated with it, like a significant portion of money. True. Our writing career is, we're here for the long term, aren't we? Yeah. All of us are investing our time

Natasha Rai:

Exactly.

Madeleine Cleary:

And our own money as well into building this long. Career. Well, that's what we have. I

Natasha Rai:

know, and I really, I really, um, disagree when. But the thinking about if you're not getting paid for your work, it's not valuable.'cause it's so valuable.

Madeleine Cleary:

Exactly. So every time you say, you know, all of us do lots of things that are for free and unpaid, but, but that's, um, an investment in our career, isn't it? Every time you say yes to an opportunity, I, I, at least I find like if I say yes to something, um, I will end up. With a connection from that event, or, yes,

Tina Strachan:

100%

Madeleine Cleary:

a fantastic experience with a conversation with the reader. And it just, you know, it really changes your perspective and it's all part of that, isn't it?

Natasha Rai:

And that's true for so many other careers too. Like when I was first training to be a therapist, I worked as a volunteer on a grief, um, service. And it wasn't paying, but it was so valuable for me and the people I was supporting and. It just gave me so much understanding and depth into something I was just going into. Just like when you, you know, now when we read other people's manuscripts or

Tina Strachan:

mm-hmm.

Natasha Rai:

When we have chats, all of that, all of that

Tina Strachan:

Yeah.

Natasha Rai:

Matters.

Tina Strachan:

Yeah. It's because we enjoy it and we find joy in it. And that might not be joyful for some people then, and then maybe, you know, that's not for them. But, uh, you know, I, it's almost when we're talking then I'm like, it's kind of like when you go to uni. And you spend, you know, three plus years at uni and how much did our degrees cost? Tens of thousands of dollars. Yes. Or um, you know, and there was, we weren't getting paid for anything then. No. I don't know about, uh, you ladies when you first get your first job, but I was getting paid rubbish. What, in my first job that was associated with my degree. And you kind of, you know, work your way up from there. But I did it because I. Thoroughly enjoyed it and I loved doing it, and no one had to pay me to be there and do it, but I, I did it and I volunteered all my time as well, all around the place to just get that experience and that knowledge, because it was, that was brought me joy as well.

Natasha Rai:

And, and if you make the link between, you know, earning money and value, then. I've thrown money down the drain.'cause I don't even use my first degree that I did at uni. Mm. It's been a total, again, I'm gonna use air course that no one can see, but YouTube, but waste of money, which it wasn't'cause it gave me lots of life experience.

Tina Strachan:

Yeah,

Madeleine Cleary:

that's right. So you have to look at what, what. What value are you getting? How do you measure value when you, I mean, having said all this, I, I think writers can be paid better.

Natasha Rai:

Oh my God, yes. The arts in general can be yes.

Madeleine Cleary:

And I think also society though respects, um. Earnings and money and, and I think that's common why it's very common when people outside the industry talk to you about your book. And the first thing they ask is how your sales going? How's it going? Yeah. That's the thing. But um, yeah, for all of us, I think this is a long-term thing, but I mean, there is also a privilege in that too, in that all of us can write, do all these things for free, invest our time and effort. Um, but we've also got, you know, sure. Financial support, um, through other things. It might be that, you know, our own selves or partners or whatever is, um, yeah. And other streams of income, which is important.

Tina Strachan:

Yeah, true. And not just income, even just, you know, family support, you know, for, for people who have, um, you know, their family or their children or just. It doesn't afford them the time.

Madeleine Cleary:

That's right.

Tina Strachan:

Like we have got time and some people just don't have, have that time. Um, yeah. So like a husband

Madeleine Cleary:

that does my social media, so,

Tina Strachan:

or the laundry that's, or the laundry does, uh, uh, yeah. So for those it can definitely be difficult. So just if, but Right. If writing's still your passion, then just find the joy. And if it's just getting the words on the piece of paper, then that's. Perfectly,

Madeleine Cleary:

and I'm gonna talk to Catherine Millen actually in an episode for March. Um, and one of my questions to her is going to be around this, um, how, what, what does success look like? What does, um, what, what, what value, how, how do authors measure that? And, you know, is it, is it a purely a sales thing? Because I'm really interested in a publisher's perspective on that because they're really much the business. But I wanna, but Catherine Millen is someone who's very much involved in that heart of books as well. So I wanna know.

Tina Strachan:

Absolutely.

Madeleine Cleary:

Yeah. What, what value, what, what's the value? That's a great

Tina Strachan:

question.

Natasha Rai:

Yeah. That's such

Tina Strachan:

a good question. That a great question.

Natasha Rai:

Yes.

Tina Strachan:

And I'm so keen to hear what she has to say.

Natasha Rai:

Mm,

Tina Strachan:

yeah.

Natasha Rai:

Um, I'm also noticing that we are nearly outta time.'cause I reckon I could talk to you for another hour easily. Um, but I really like where this conversation's gone. I, it's got me, yeah. Really thinking about value as well, and. I love, I love, I love so much about listening to the books. Thanks, man.

Madeleine Cleary:

Oh, no worries.

Tina Strachan:

That's beautiful. Can I just add, we spoke about, uh, you mentioned Maggie Island, magnetic Island earlier. Yes. Which was incredible and yes, I'm very sad that I cannot apply for it again. Me

Natasha Rai:

too,

Tina Strachan:

this year. Um, Madeleine, you can, um, and so can everybody else who's listening it is open now. It is open now. Yes. Um, the applications for the Magnetic Island, uh, writers on the Reef. The Reef, amazing. We cannot recommend it more, uh, through James Cook University and the Rhetoric Center for Creative Writing and Literature. Did I get that? All right. Um, so have a little Google, um, check them out. Riders on the reef, honestly cannot recommend it more. Yes, it's a week on a tropical island

Natasha Rai:

paradise.

Tina Strachan:

So

Natasha Rai:

just me to write and it's even. More sup, like the support that's available for riders is, is, is um, is really wonderful this year because this year they're offering to pay for your flights and you get a stipend. Mm-hmm. So if you are struggling in terms of, you know, taking time off work or worrying about financial commitments, maybe, hopefully this could help make that decision to apply.

Madeleine Cleary:

Mm-hmm. Amazing. Well, I should apply, shouldn't I?

Natasha Rai:

You should.

Madeleine Cleary:

Oh, but then if I, I would do it if I

Tina Strachan:

could. I thought about just taking myself off there every year. I know we made plans, didn't we? Natasha? We like we did. We just put money aside every week. We can actually do

Natasha Rai:

this. We, if we told everyone how much money they had to put aside, it wasn't even that much, was like$20 or something.

Madeleine Cleary:

We should plan a, um, book, deal, podcast retreat.

Tina Strachan:

I don't need any excuse, but

Natasha Rai:

I don't either. I mean, I'm already like, yes, let's do it. Where are we going?

Madeleine Cleary:

We could, we could run it for other people too. So if anyone's interested joining on a writer's retreat. Send us a message. We might, yes. A

Tina Strachan:

message.

Madeleine Cleary:

I really like let book things. I'm a very

Natasha Rai:

Me too. Me

Madeleine Cleary:

too.

Tina Strachan:

Oh, okay. And I like going to things that people have booked, so this is fantastic. Okay, so this is great. I love this idea. You Yes, definitely. Please message us if you would like to get in on our, the book deal. Um,

Natasha Rai:

run in

Tina Strachan:

retreats. Run retreat. Because the, the really cool thing is in some of these retreats. And I'm sure this is something that we could organize as well, is, um, you know, I've been on retreats before where we've had agents zoom in and you can submit work to agents and they can have like a 15 minute chat with an agent. Um, or publishers can call in all those sorts of things. Um,

Madeleine Cleary:

sure we can arrange that.

Natasha Rai:

I'll

Tina Strachan:

ask Catherine now.

Natasha Rai:

Sure.

Tina Strachan:

She might wanna come.

Natasha Rai:

Wow. This retreat is getting more and more sophisticated and by the second

Tina Strachan:

you must like cheese though. And chocolate.

Natasha Rai:

Oh yeah, cheese and chocolate. That's, that's, that's, of course, that's literally a prerequisite

Madeleine Cleary:

and wine at the end after a hard day of riding,

Natasha Rai:

the wine is fine, but cheese and chocolate have to must, must,

must.

Madeleine Cleary:

All

Natasha Rai:

right.

Madeleine Cleary:

Sounds

Natasha Rai:

good. Well, thank you ladies. And as per usual, no, uh, book deal episode would be complete without a bit of toilet. References, which we had today.

Madeleine Cleary:

Alright.

Natasha Rai:

Finding piles of poo, I think is the thing. So thank you very much for that.

Madeleine Cleary:

So is that our top tip then?

Natasha Rai:

Um, keep going. Even if it's a finding pile of poo that

Madeleine Cleary:

embrace the poo

Natasha Rai:

Embrace, embrace the, embrace the poo. Oh, okay. Okay. I, we, okay. Ascend on that. Embrace the poo.

Speaker:

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