Jack Heath on novel ideas, writing practice and building a writing career

Natasha Rai interviews award-winning author Jack Heath (49 novels, published in 10 languages) about his YA thriller 'I Know What You’re Hiding'. Heath gives an elevator pitch: after a house fire kills one sister, survivor Jamie receives a blood-written note saying “I know what you’re hiding,” and teen true-crime podcaster Zoe investigates the blackmail. Heath discusses writing for ages 12–16, the book’s long development from an earlier pitch that spun into the 'Liars' series, and why Zoe returned after 'If You Tell Anyone You’re Next'. He explains lessons about series vs sequels, selling manuscripts to publishers, balancing promotion with writing, his daily process and project management, outlining, differences between adult and kids fiction, idea “odd sock drawer” blending, embracing negative feedback, and joining nonprofit writing groups. The Debut Spotlight features Lisa Moule’s debut 'The Mother of All Calamities'.

00:00 Podcast Intro
00:42 Meet Jack Heath
01:44 Elevator Pitch
03:28 Writing Dark YA
05:42 Origins of the Novel
10:04 Odd Sock Ideas
11:35 Series Lessons
14:15 Selling to Publishers
18:28 Promotion Pressures
21:43 Writing Routine
25:45 Word Count Planning
27:45 Editing and Reading Style
30:12 Editing Versus Drafting
31:44 Guest Introduction
32:15 Outlining To Sell Books
36:41 Adult Versus Kids Writing
45:44 Ideas And Book Mashups
50:33 Sustainable Career Lessons
54:04 Embracing Negative Feedback
58:47 Advice And Writing Communities
01:01:25 Wrap Up And Credits

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Transcript

0:00

This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books. We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal. So no matter what stage of writing your at. We've got you covered. I'm Tina Strachan. I'm Madeleine Cleary. And I'm Natasha Rai. And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors one deal at a time. The Book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.

Natasha Rai 0:56

Jack Heath is the award-winning author of 49 novels, including 300 Minutes of Danger and Kill Your Husbands. His work is published in 10 languages and has been optioned for tv. He lives on Nawal and Mare Country in Canberra. Hello, Jack, welcome.

Jack Heath 1:14

Hello, how are you?

Natasha Rai 1:16

I'm okay. How are you?

Jack Heath 1:18

Uh, I'm really, well. I, um, just got back from the, the shops where my book hasn't come out yet, but I walked into a bookshop and they had some copies, so I signed them and it's everywhere

Natasha Rai 1:27

already. Right.

Jack Heath 1:28

Take it out again. I know. It's so exciting. I love it when, um, when booksellers pay no attention whatsoever to the release date and just put the stuff that they ha it sounds like I'm being sarcastic, but I'm really not. I, I think it's super exciting to see a pre-release copy sitting there on the shelves.

Natasha Rai 1:44

So I'm gonna throw you in the deep end,'cause you just said to me before I hit re record that this is your first interview about this book. That's exactly

Jack Heath 1:52

right. Yeah.

Natasha Rai 1:53

Can I have your elevator pitch or I know what you are hiding.

Jack Heath 1:57

Okay, sure. Now, traditionally an elevator pitch is what? 30 seconds? Is that about right?

Natasha Rai 2:02

Yep.

Jack Heath 2:02

In, in Canberra, we don't have a lot of tall buildings. So like if you're riding in a lift, it's probably 15 seconds at best. But, okay, so basically there's, um, there are these two girls, sisters, their house burns down, one of them survives, the other one doesn't. Um, the surviving sister, Jamie, three years later receives a message. Um, like she finds a note in her bag, written in blood that says, I know what you're hiding. And luckily, um, one of Jamie's best friends, uh, a guy named Axel has a sister named Zoe, who, oh man, this is too much of a family tree for an elevator picture.

Natasha Rai 2:43

Keep going. You, you, you're doing. Yeah.

Jack Heath 2:45

The point is, um, Zoe is a teenage girl who has a true crime podcast that hardly anyone listens to, but she has some investigative skills. So for reasons, Jamie doesn't want to go to the police about this. She doesn't want to talk to her parents. She doesn't want to talk to anybody, but she does need to know who is blackmailing her. And so she contacts her best friend's little sister, um, who becomes the main character of the story. It's all about Zoe's investigation, trying to work out who is blackmailing Jamie.

Natasha Rai 3:16

Right. Thank you.

Jack Heath 3:19

I'll, I'll, I'll refine that over the, um, over the coming months. No doubt. By the time it's too late, I'll have it down pat.

Natasha Rai 3:26

Exactly. Which is always the way. Um, so I had the good fortune of reading it. Um, and it's pretty dark. Like, I mean, I loved it, but I was like, whoa. There's like, especially, I won't. I won't ruin it for anyone, but that opening scene, I was just like, holy shit. Like straight in.

Jack Heath 3:44

Yeah. I, um, uh, I've been writing for Scholastic, that's who, um, publishes this book for quite a long time and before I started working with them. I had kind of a different idea of what children's fiction meant. I kind of thought that there would be limits on, you know, how, how scary something could be or how devastating, or basically I always figured, uh. You're not allowed to upset the children. I, I figured that was the main thing. Yeah. But I have since discovered that while there are no go zones, like so. No. Um, this book there, there, it's for age, kind of 12 to 16. So, um, no sex, no drugs, uh, no course language. But it can be as scary as I want. So, um, I, I tried to, um, yeah, yeah, I, I tried to maximize the emotional impact while, um, while minimizing the amount of things that are likely to get me into trouble with the parents of my readers. And, uh, that's always a fun challenge.

Natasha Rai 4:51

Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm not a parent, but I. I don't know, I'd be a bit spooked if my 12, 15-year-old was reading that. In a good way. In a good way.

Jack Heath 5:00

Well, if, if it's any, um, if it's any consolation to the parents out there, my 11-year-old son has read the book and really, really liked it. In fact, his enthusiasm for the project really kept me going. It meant that I was, um. Sometimes. So, I mean, I love my job, but it is still a job and writing does sometimes feel like work, but knowing that he was enjoying the story so much and was so passionate about it, really made it feel like a personal project as well as a professional one. So, um, anyway, just because I was comfortable with my 11-year-old reading, it doesn't necessarily mean anyone else would let theirs, but, um, either way he really had a good time. So it was worth a shot, I reckon, right?

Natasha Rai 5:41

Well, exactly. So. You've, you're the author of 49 novels, so I was like, when I was coming preparing to talk to you, I was just like, where the hell do I start? So I've just decided I'm just gonna dive in all over the place, if that's okay. And you've, you've been interviewed loads, so I know lots of people would have heard you speak about lots of things I wanna ask you. But, um, what was your starting point with this particular novel? How did you.

Jack Heath 6:09

So this, this one had kind of an unusual starting point, which is that I, I had the story about the house that burns down with the two sisters in it, and I pitched it as a young adult novel to my publisher. But there was an extra kind of. Wrinkle in the story, which was that someone, uh, so this, this girl, three years after the fire has been living this very difficult life. Um, you know, she has mm-hmm. Uh, she's very badly burned. She's injured. So, uh. Um, that has all kinds of flow on effects as well. Um, her social life is in tatters, and then someone invents a lie detector app and suddenly she's in an enormous amount of danger because everyone installs it on their phones. And then the publisher said. Look, we really like the lie detector app. Can you write a whole book about that instead? So I did, and that became a five book series called Liars. Um, but this story about the, um, the two girls in the fire, it's like sometimes the only way you know that an idea is worth pursuing is you try not to pursue it. And then if it just. Keeps living rent free in your brain for years and years and years. Yeah. Yeah. Then, you know, you're probably gonna have to write the book, otherwise you'll, you'll never be rid of it. So that's kind of what happened to me. And after I wrote, um, so I tried to forget about that idea, the two girls. Mm-hmm. And the fire, I put it aside, um, for, um, I don't know, I, I think the original pitch was in 2017 or something, so this is almost 10 years ago. Wow.

Natasha Rai 7:48

Yeah.

7:49

Yeah.

Jack Heath 7:49

Then something happened, uh, a Good Girl's Guide to Murder came out, and that was a massive, massive smash hit across the board. And Scholastic asked me if I was willing to write some kind of teenage murder mystery thing. So I wrote a book called, if You Tell Anyone You Are Next. Um, which came out not last year was the year before, but that introduced Zoe Gale, the podcaster as a character. And you never really know if something's gonna work until you actually sit down and write it. But when I sat down and wrote, if you tell Anyone You're Next, um, I really loved the main character Zoe. She was just so much fun to write about, um, in part because of the. The ways she responds to situations and the way she talks. And so she's, uh, she's kind of brave. She's a little bit sassy, but also she's very sassy. She's, I like that also. Yeah. And I think she's kind of just the right side of rebellious as well. Like she's, um. She cares about right and wrong, but doesn't necessarily do what she's told. So for all those reasons, she was a fun character to write about. And then when it did really well, the publisher said, well, would you like to write another book about Zoe? And I was like, well, I would like to write a book about the fire with the two girls and the burning house and stuff. And the, I think what was missing from that original pitch, uh, the, the. The house burning down. My original pitch back in 2017 was that there wasn't a detective, there was no one to investigate that mystery. It was all kind of, the reader was sort of trapped inside the head of Jamie, the, uh, the girl who survives the fire. So. Putting Zoe into the story really kind of, uh, that that kind of electrified it. I had that kind of it's alive moment where I could see that the story was actually gonna work. So that's, this book's kind of long, rocky road to writing, editing, and publication.

Natasha Rai 9:49

And it just shows as well, like how that writing spark or the creative spark can really just go into all these beautiful, amazing directions, right? Like where you started with the app store, you know, idea, and then into Zoe Gale and then now into the back to the Bernie House.

Jack Heath 10:03

Yeah. Yeah, I heard, uh, I heard an interview on Triple J with a musician, and I'm sorry, but I, I can't remember whom. Maybe, uh, maybe one of your listeners will, um, credit where credit's due. I just wish I, I could remember who this was, but he talked about his odd sock draw. Like basically he would come up with, uh, an idea that you couldn't really call it an idea for a song, that it would just be a, a scrap of a lyric or a. Part of a melody or something like that. And then if it wasn't good enough on its own, he would then, uh, put it in the odd sock drawer. And eventually when there was enough stuff in the odd sock drawer, like every time he came up with a new scrap of a melody, he would check the drawer just to see if there was anything else that it seemed to fit with. So I think my creative process, and probably most artists. Creative process is a bit like that, like a good idea never comes to you all at once. It comes in, fits and starts. So the, the trick is to just kind of constantly be doing a, um, a process of mixing and matching to see, um, you know, what to see if what one thing is lacking is a perfect fit for what something else has in spades.

Natasha Rai 11:15

Yeah, I, I see what you're saying. And you know, as someone who doesn't have any ideas in terms of series, and I think the people who write series are just amazing. Do you know already it's going to be a series or does it work like what you just described? You maybe write something and then there's this character that you think, oh, I wouldn't mind hanging out with you a bit longer.

Jack Heath 11:35

Um, there's a th this was a lesson that I learned early in my career. I had, um, my, my first novel, um, so this was called The Lab. It was published back in 2006. I was 19 years old. I was woefully unprepared to become a minor celebrity. I was even unprepared to become a writer. Like I, I thought I knew how to be a writer, but it turned out I only knew how to write that one book, and I'd already written. Now I, um, writers often struggle with their second books, I think in part because they, they, they realize that, um, firstly every book requires a different method. And secondly, your first book, you have as long as you want to write it. Whereas your second book, you've usually got a year, maybe not even that, maybe like six months. Um, but anyway, I saw this. As a series, um, and I'd kind of mapped out this long character arc that was going to be several books long. Um, but the thing is, the second book of the series didn't sell very well. Um, the readers just, just weren't there. But because I had this, um, uh, because I had this grand vision in my head, I still wrote a book three and a book four, even though book two had flopped. And that basically led me to being. Dropped by my publisher, Pam McMillan, because I mean, after book two didn't sell, book three didn't sell, and after book three didn't sell, book four obviously didn't sell. And, um, and then if you write enough flops, uh, typically the number is one by the way. Um, then suddenly your, your publisher drops you. So Pam McMillan kept me on a lot longer than, um, that they had any right to, I reckon. But, so I learned that lesson, which was to write every book as though it's going to be your last one, like as though you're gonna get hit by a bus the next day. And I, I, so I don't leave anything unsaid or untold. And then if the book gets a good response, then I, I write a sequel. So I typically don't write. Series. I just write sequels until, um, people stop buying them. But by people I don't mean readers. I mean publishers. Yeah. Like it's not my job to sell books to readers. It's my job to sell manuscripts to publishers. So if the publisher isn't interested in a second manuscript in the series. Then I, I don't write one, I move on to something else. Sometimes the contract will specify that it's, it'll be a two book deal or, um, a three. The most I've ever had is like a five book deal, and that made me kind of nervous. Um, but, uh, yeah. Okay. Sorry, I've, I've lost my train of thought, but No, no, no. That's

Natasha Rai 14:15

a really, that's a really interesting thing that you just said about your job is to sell books or manuscripts to publishers, not to readers. Yes.

Jack Heath 14:23

Yes.

Natasha Rai 14:24

Have you learned that along the way, or did you kind of go in knowing that? Oh

Jack Heath 14:27

yeah, definitely. I think, um, uh, and it, it's a lesson that I have to keep reminding myself of because there's a lot of pressure in the other direction. Hang on, let me, let me unpack what I mean by that. Yes. So when my first and second and third books came out, I was. Really focused on trying to sell them directly to readers in the sense that, um, uh, I, I was hustling, you know, trying to get, uh, interviews like I was, I I was trying to do a lot of public events. I, I would try to get on the radio and try to get on tv, which is not easy to do as an individual, like a, a publisher can. Pitch you for those things. Mm-hmm. But if you're, if you're pitching yourself, you're largely just get ignored unless you, you know, you're already so famous that it doesn't matter. Mm-hmm. And, um, when my, uh, when my third book, the, the copies were remained, which for listeners who don't know, is, is just when basically unsold sock stock is returned to the publisher, and then the publisher, um, uh, sells it on to discount. Stores for very, very low prices, but they typically offer it to the author first. That's often in the contract. So I bought like a thousand copies of my own book for a dollar each in, uh, and then tried to do events trying to hand sell them to people. None of that worked. Um, so what I ended up with was a garage full of unsold books and, uh, and having to get a, a part-time job because I wasn't. You know, making enough money to, um, to pay the rent. And so, uh, now that I have learned, actually what turned it around was when I self-published a book. So I self-published a book called Ink Inc. Back in 2013. And that book was not a success, but having to do all the work of a publisher really taught me what was their job. And what was my job. And so since then I've gotten much better at letting other people do the thing that they are in a better, uh, that they have an advantage in doing. Mm-hmm. That gives me all this free time to focus more on the books and or more on the manuscripts and making them as good as I possibly can. So since then, now there's all this pressure for authors to, for example, to be on social media constantly. The idea of. Author as brand is a massive, massive, massive thing. And I get that because it's hard for publishers to market books on social media because no one really wants to hear a publisher talk about a book. They want to hear the author talk about the book. But I resist that pressure as much as I can because I remind myself that. Every second I spend trying to sell a book is a second. I'm not spending working on a manuscript, refining and polishing. And, um, I'm aware that there are really good books out there that don't have the success that they deserve. But I, um, but I, I think, uh, every. Oh, you would think I would be better at articulating myself, given, given what I do for a living. But I really think that, um, a good book is its own best. Uh. A, a good book sells itself. Um, or at least tries to. So that's, yeah. Um, this is why I, I don't really blog anymore. Like I used to spend a lot of time blogging about the, the writing life. Mm-hmm. Back when, back when MySpace was a thing. And then thank goodness someone, someone at, uh, at. Tom headquarters accidentally deleted MySpace. Like they hit the wrong button and deleted everyone's MySpace pages. And uh, and I was like, well, there goes my blog, but um, maybe I should focus on the writing instead. And that's what I've been doing ever since.

Natasha Rai 18:28

Yeah, I mean, like, I think that's really interesting because you are right in that. Authors have a certain job or writers have a certain job. And also right now it's quite difficult because publishers are so stretched, publicity departments are stretched. So there is more, not pressure, but maybe more responsibility on the author to get out there and do some Yeah. Promos. And that's

Jack Heath 18:52

so true. And'cause when you are. Uh, when your book comes out, success or fail, you want to be able to say you did everything you could. Yeah. So, and, um, publishers are in a really difficult position because even if the, um, even if the budgets weren't, uh, so tight, like just imagine if, um. Uh, if, if my publisher spent a hundred thousand dollars or a million or whatever it is that costs to get one of those big billboards on next to the airport, um, uh oh, actually, okay. Yeah. Airport's a bad example, but I, I was just gonna say that, um, if they spent a a hundred thousand dollars on a billboard, no one would see it because everyone's just looking down there. Their phones on Instagram. Yeah. So kind of Instagram is where you need to be if you're going to get the attention, but, um, uh, but as, as we were just talking about like publishers aren't well placed to do that because I actually think listening to a publisher talk about a book is often more interesting than listening to the author talk about it. But I don't think readers feel that way. I think readers feel this sort of, um. Uh, the connection between the artist and the audience mm-hmm. Is a crucial part of what art is. Yeah. This is kind of why no one wants AI art.

Natasha Rai 20:14

Yes, exactly.

Jack Heath 20:15

It's because the, the second you realize it was put together by a machine, you kind of lose interest in it because that human connection is kind of what we appreciate about art in the first place. And so that means the author is the one who's best placed to be out there on social media. I've been quite lucky in the sense that. At the very least, having grown up with MySpace, I kind of understand the social media ecosystem a little bit. So I have a rough idea of what I can do that will or won't get traction.

Natasha Rai 20:44

Mm.

Jack Heath 20:45

But I, um, yeah, if one of my books. Flops again. And I have no doubt that it'll happen sooner or later. Um, it's, it happened to me a lot of times before and my careers, uh, I, I'm at the peak of it right now, which presumably means I'll be coming down again any second. But it means that, um, uh, when that book flops, I don't wanna look my publisher in the eye and say, oh, well I didn't. I didn't even talk about it on Instagram. I was too busy writing a now another book that you now can't sell.

Natasha Rai 21:17

Yeah.

Jack Heath 21:18

As you can probably tell, I spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about this. I, I find it a, um, uh, bothersome.

Natasha Rai 21:24

It is, it is bothersome because, you know, it's, it's a very different skillset. To promote yourself and to talk about your work in, in a, in a commercial way than it is to actually write. And it's interesting what you said about hearing publishers. I think writers like to hear publishers talk about books. Maybe readers just like that connection, like you said with the, with the writer. But I'm curious about your writing practice. Like what do you have to write? Like five, six? Manuscripts a year to sustain your

Jack Heath 21:53

No, no, no. It's, uh, so it's more like three. Okay. I mean, so this,

Natasha Rai 21:58

that still sounds like a lot for me. It takes like two years to write one.

Jack Heath 22:03

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Uh, it is quite a lot. Um. I next week will be the 20th anniversary of my, um, of the publication of my first book. So, and if I've written 49 books in that time, then yeah, that's, that's, uh, pretty close to two and a half books a year. Um, so my, my writing practice, what it generally looks like, um, and having. Let me put a massive disclaimer on it that, uh, like I said before, every book has a slightly different process. Mm-hmm. Like usually I sit down to write a book and then realize that. The, the habits that I cultivated to put together the previous book don't necessarily work on this one. Mm-hmm. And sometimes that's due to things in my life changing. Like when I became a parent, my whole writing routine had to, had to become very, very different. But at the moment, kind of what I do is I get, um, I, I get my kids dressed and fed and off to school. I get. My, my wife can dress herself, but I, I make her breakfast and her lunch and send her off to work. Mm-hmm. Uh, and then I, I go out to my desk, I'm, I make a cup of coffee and I, I sit down and work for a couple of hours. Um. When I start to get stuck or my mind starts to wander.

Natasha Rai 23:29

Mm.

Jack Heath 23:29

Um, there are a couple of things that, so I, I really envy those writers who, who go like, oh, well, I, I write when I'm inspired to do it, but I, I. I really can't afford to wait for inspiration. I, I don't have a, a day job or anything like that. I'm a full-time writer, so if the words aren't coming, I need to make them come.

Natasha Rai 23:49

Yeah. Yeah.

Jack Heath 23:49

So,

Natasha Rai 23:50

so, so can I just interrupt to ask a question? When you say you sit down, please and write for a co work for a couple of hours, work means writing or thinking as well.

Jack Heath 23:57

No. Work. Work means writing,

Natasha Rai 23:59

right.

Jack Heath 23:59

The um, the thinking happens away from my desk. I've discovered that when I'm stuck it's often because. I haven't done the thinking, and so I, I'm not smart enough to try to work out what to say and how to say it at the same time. Okay. I, um, I, the, the words flow. The words float, that never happens. So, um, I rewrite every sentence, you know, several times trying to work out how to get what I want to say across to the reader. And if I haven't even decided what that is, then uh, that's gonna be much, much, much, much harder. Yeah. So. Um, or when I get stuck, I make a cup of tea or I go for a walk, or sometimes it's a matter of making sure that I give myself some time to think and it doesn't take much. But I'm, I'm one of those people who, uh, I mean, no one likes being bored, I guess, but I'm, I'm not very good at sitting with that discomfort, so I tend to fill my whole life. With podcasts and, you know, videos and mm-hmm. Stuff like that. And I end up doing work adjacent things like designing business cards on Vistaprint, you know, things where I can pat myself in the back for doing my job. But it doesn't actually, I mean, when would I give anyone a business card, even uses business cards anymore? But I found that if I go for a walk or go for a drive and just, um, and anytime my mind wanders, I just kind of redirect it back to the manuscript, working out what it is that I'm, uh, what's supposed to happen next. Mm-hmm. Then when I sit down again at the keyboard, um, I'll, I'll get sort of my second wind. Mm-hmm. So. I try to write about 2000 words a day. Um, I often fall short of that goal and most, uh, and probably 600 of those words won't. Be kept. I don't even mean in the later editing, I even mean on, on that day. So, okay. I used a, a writing program called novella, and this is so conflict of interest statement. I'm a writer, co-owner of Novella, so if it ever somehow becomes profitable, I might somehow benefit from people using it. So I need to, to tell you that up top, but it keeps track of how many words I've written and keeps that distinct from. How many words I've added to the manuscript. So, oh, if I write 2000 words in a day, that might be 1400 words added to my manuscript. And I do that five days a week, which comes out at the manuscript getting 7,000 words longer per week, or 30,000 words longer per month. And those are the numbers that I use when I am. Signing contracts because I, if I'm offered a, a contract like we want you to write, uh, well, you know, a good girl, a Good Girl's Guide to Murder is doing really well. Um, can you write a Teenage Crime thriller by November? Um, I go, well, okay. If you want it to be 65,000 words, that means it'll take me. Two months and five days to write the first draft, and then it'll take me half as long again to write the second draft, and then half as long again to write the third draft and half as long again to write the fourth draft, and so on and so forth. Mm-hmm. So I know that that project will be about 130 days total, although there will be. Maybe a three week gap in between each draft when I've sent it off to the publisher and I'm waiting to hear back. And in that time, I can't just sit there. I, I have to be working on something else, so. Okay. I've had to get pretty good at project management, I guess is what I'm

Natasha Rai 27:44

saying. Yeah. And when you are writing, are you editing at the same time, like that deletion that you mentioned? So you're doing all of it?

Jack Heath 27:52

Yeah, that's right. I, I tend to have about three or four goes at every sentence, and then if it's still not right, I move on to the next one and just tell myself that. Okay. I'll have to catch that in the, in the next draft. Um, I, I've only recently realized, I dunno if this is because I have a DHD or what, but because I do. But when I. Read my eye jumps around the page quite a lot. Like, so not only do I write every sentence three or four times kind of moving words around until it feels like they're in the right order, but when I'm reading, I read each paragraph three or four times. Um, and I, I don't do it on purpose and I only notice it if I'm, um, if I'm really trying to pay attention to my own eye movements, but I can really feel the difference when, for example, I'm listening to an audio book because an audio book like. Unless you deliberately hit the skip back button, it doesn't skip back if you've missed something.

Natasha Rai 28:53

Yeah.

Jack Heath 28:53

It just keeps going. Whereas, um, when I'm, I, I've been reading Life of Pie, um, by Jan Mattel Yeah. And really enjoying it, but the, the number of times I've realized that I've read the same paragraph three or four times. And read it. Read, read it in a bunch of different orders. It's like each, it's like a factorial problem. So a sentence, you know, has 10 words in it could, the number of different orders I could read those words in is greater than the number of atoms in the universe. So, yeah. Does that, do you read this way or do you read like every word in letter? Never skip back. Oh, okay. It might just be a me thing.

Natasha Rai 29:31

Yeah, because I've, I'm finding that really fascinating'cause I'm trying to imagine doing that and. That would, I think, drive me a little crazy. Um,

Jack Heath 29:39

well, I mean, I am a little crazy, so maybe, but there, there's a cause and effect thing. What came first, the the chicken or the egg, the crazy or the

Natasha Rai 29:48

jumping around with it. But it's, it's such a useful skill. It must be so like to be able to do that.'cause when I'm writing or draft, like I don't even bother rereading. I just write. It's probably hugely inefficient, and then I go back and work on it again. But,

Jack Heath 30:01

but so each, each sentence, like mm-hmm. You hit the full stop and then you move on. You don't go back and reread the sentence you just wrote. Wow. Yeah. Okay. That's, uh, I love, um, talking to other writers about their process in part because. Uh, I think, I don't think this is just me. I think most writers assume that the way they do it is the way most other people do it as well. But I did an experiment a few years ago, um, uh, don't even know if I'd call it an experiment. I, I guess I was just trying to trick myself into working harder. I kind of live streamed my computer screen on YouTube so as readers could actually see my. My manuscript coming together and it only, well, I mean it's, it stops me from like alt tabbing away to a web browser or anything like that. I, because it, it felt like, you know, my boss was watching over my shoulder, oh gosh, probably, probably only about six people watched this video, but one of them turned out to be Benjamin Stevenson because afterwards I was at an event and he was like, you. You re-edit and rearrange your paragraphs and stuff so much as you go. And I was like, wow, you, you don't do that? And he's like, no, I'm, I think about it until it is perfect in my head, and then I write it down. So I, I think I do much, much, much more editing than he does. But his books are terrific. I, I would kill to have the kind of. Um, you know, Swiss watch Brain that he has that can do that. But yeah, I can't hold a good sentence in my head. I can only see it on the page.

Lisa Moule 31:45

Hi, book deal, podcast. My name is Lisa Moule and my debut novel is called The Mother of All Calamities. It's a satirical look at the parenting culture and the false perceptions we have of other people, and it's told from four female points of view, one teacher and three school parents. I can't wait to chat with you about it. Thank you.

Natasha Rai 32:15

so with your, um, writing p like routine practice, I've heard you say previously that you like to plot your work. Is that still the case?

Jack Heath 32:25

Um, it is so early on in my career. Um, I mean, especially with my first book, I would kind of just make it up as I go. Um, but I've discovered that, uh, a little bit of outlining can save a lot of editing. You end up kind of not going down so many blind alleys and, but it, it also became a sort of financial necessity. Mm-hmm. Like. When, um, uh, so. The further you get in your writing career, the less work you have to do to get the contract. So at the beginning of your career, you've really gotta write an entire book and edit. That's right. Yes. Edit and publish it. And before you can sell it to a publisher, um, by the time you get to be, uh, uh, I don't know, Hillary Mantel or something, then you can just tell the publisher. Mm-hmm. Oh, hi. My name is Hilary Mantel. I intend to write a book and they'll like give you money without even knowing what it's about.

Natasha Rai 33:25

Mm.

Jack Heath 33:26

Um, but I spent a lot of years in between, I guess at mid list author is the term. Mm-hmm. Where the publisher was like, okay, we don't need you to write. The book to give you the contract will give you, um, an advance for a book you haven't written yet. But we do need to know what happens in it. So that meant that I would have to write a two, three page outline of, you know, the whole plot. Mm-hmm.

Natasha Rai 33:51

Mm-hmm.

Jack Heath 33:51

Um, in order to get the contract. Here's the thing though, I discovered that the best ideas are often the ones that occur to me. As I'm writing, um, as I'm writing the actual draft, not the outline, and I've learned that publishers, uh, in general don't seem to mind when you deviate from the outline. They, um, uh, I, I once had a publisher say when I, I submitted a manuscript that was wildly different from the outline I'D submitted and I said. Look, I'm, I'm really sorry. This is so different, but I do think it's better than, than the outline I sent you and the publisher said, oh, I don't read them.

Natasha Rai 34:32

Oh, okay.

Jack Heath 34:33

And that was a lot of pressure because when, when I knew that she had. Approved the outline. That gave me some confidence that this idea might have legs. When I realized she wasn't even reading the outlines that I was writing, uh, that that almost, almost gave me a, a bit of a crisis. But Scholastic, who published, I Know What You're Hiding. They definitely read the outlines and a big part of it is what I was talking about before with they, with content warning stuff like they, they want to know that there isn't going to be anything. In it that's going to be inappropriate for a 12-year-old reader. So, um, and sometimes they will, uh, even the sales team will, so not just my publisher, but the, the, and by my publisher, I mean, I don't mean the publishing house, I mean the human being at the publishing house. Um, it won't just be her who reads my outlines. It'll be the sales team as well who kind of highlights stuff and goes like, eh, this could be problematic. Um, are there ways early we can kind of write around that? So, yes, yes. I, I've just, I've discovered that, um, outlining really helps, but maybe, I don't wanna say one way of doing it is better than any other way of doing it. And maybe you have to pants your way through a few manuscripts before you even know how to write a good outline. Like before you have a feel for. What kind of plot twists will and won't work. I think it's a real skill.

Natasha Rai 36:01

It is

Jack Heath 36:01

looking at an outline and knowing if it's gonna work or if it isn't. I've definitely had, um, instances where not just my publisher, but my agent has read an outline. I've written and highlighted something and gone, I don't think this is gonna work. And initially that's really frustrating. I always go, oh, but I know it sounds dumb on paper, but when it works it, but once I've written it, I think it'll be really good. And then I try to write it my way and it just doesn't work. And I go, wow, I wish I had that level of skill that my agent has of being able to tell in advance whether

Natasha Rai 36:35

yeah,

Jack Heath 36:36

whether something is gonna work or not.

Natasha Rai 36:37

I

Jack Heath 36:37

don't have that. I kind of have to

Natasha Rai 36:39

write. I definitely don't have that. Yeah, I definitely don't have that. Um, so, uh, given that you have to think about like themes, content warning, what other things do you have to do, like in terms of creative mental adjustment to write an adult book versus like a YA or Children's book?

Jack Heath 36:55

Oh, right. Okay. That, that's interesting. Um, so the dirty little secret about my business is that. These two categories like adult fiction and children's fiction. By this I mean fiction for adults. Yes. I don't mean like sexy adult fiction. Um, I, I think they have actually more in common than most readers or even most writers might think like no matter who you are writing for, they want suspense. They want. Humor. They want variety. They, they, they want all, all sorts of stuff. So, um, so the, the two processes aren't as different as you might think. Um, the, the differences are, there's those landmines that I talked about, um, before, things that you just can't put in a kid's book. Um, there's also the. The awareness that when you're writing a book for children, I am, I'm always conscious of the fact that I might be up to a point shaping the worldview of the reader, um, in a way that isn't true when you're writing for adults. So when I'm writing for adults, I try to be a bit. Subversive. Um, I, uh, I, I try to go like, Hey, so maybe, hey, maybe it's not all that bad to be a cannibal, and it is bad to be a cannibal, but I can kind of prod at that idea and go, yeah, but why, why though? And, and try to manipulate the reader into. Caring about and even liking a cannibal as a fun kind of subversive project. Whereas when I'm writing for kids, I have to be aware that I am, uh, for an adult I might be kind of enjoying rattling those moral foundations. But for a kid, those moral foundations might not even be built yet. So. I, um, I, I don't want the books to feel preachy, but nor do I want them to do any harm, you know, so that, that's one thing that I have to factor in. Another thing to factor in is that adults. Tend to be comfortable with more of a slow burn than kids are. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I, I think, um, I dunno if it's an attention span thing or just the fact that, uh, kids have more, uh, there are more other artistic mediums competing for their time. You know, like the video games especially, although I know people my age. Play video games as well. But that means that the, the shape of an adult novel might be you start with something dramatic or at least intriguing, and then, uh, turn the heat down to a low simmer while you start to ex establish some of the backstories of the characters and some world building. And then slowly over the course of a couple of hundred pages, build up to a really big climax and then tail off with a sort of. Coder at the end. Um, whereas when I'm writing for kids, I basically try to keep it turned up to 11 kind of the whole time. Mm-hmm. Um, if there isn't something, you know, something potentially life-threatening happening on every single page. Then I know that I'm gonna lose a good portion of my readers. Mm-hmm. Um, so a book, like, I know what you're hiding though, that's kind of halfway in between'cause I'm writing for teenagers. So the story needs to have an overall shape, but it also needs to be kind of exciting on every page. And that's a, a difficult tightrope to walk on. Yeah. But it's also kind of what makes the series so much fun because, um. Often art, uh, I, I don't wanna derail this discussion by talking about AI again because it has a, it has a, a habit of kind of just taking over the discussion, but, um, I think, uh, anything that makes your artistic practice easier is. Sometimes inadvertently makes it harder because the difficulty is what usually forces the creativity, if that makes any sense. Yes, yes it does. I mean, I was at the Manly Writers Festival on the weekend and um, there was a, a wonderful writer whose name unfortunately escapes me'cause I saw her live, so I um, uh, I'm sure she introduced herself. But I, I, I didn't hear the words. I only heard what, what she said. So, but if anyone was at the Manly Writers Festival, she made an impression on everyone who was there, so they'll know exactly who I'm talking about. She said words to the effect of, there's a reason that a work of art is called a work of art. Like it's work. If you take away the work and make it easy, it's not art anymore. So, Ooh,

Natasha Rai 41:43

I

Jack Heath 41:43

like that. I think there's, there's really something to that.

Natasha Rai 41:48

Do you have a preference or is it just. Speaks to different creative parts of you to write for adult.

Jack Heath 41:54

Oh, writing for kids versus writing for adults. Um, I, writing for adults is. Easier, but bearing in mind what we just said about

Natasha Rai 42:05

Yeah. Yeah.

Jack Heath 42:05

Stuff being easy. Um, because when I'm writing for adults, I can write the kind of book that I would like to read as opposed to having to sort of, um, hypothesize like, okay, not what's the book that I would like to read, but what book would I have liked to read as a kid, but not the kind of kid I was growing up in the nineties, like a kid now growing up in 2026. Mm-hmm. So that's a lot harder. But children are also able to suspend their disbelief a lot further than adults are. I think. I think an adult, um, not all of them, but that many adult readers. As soon as they read something that wouldn't or couldn't happen in real life, they kind of give up on the book. Whereas a kid doesn't really care if it's impossible. They only care if it's awesome. Yeah. So that means that. The, my head is kind of bubbling with stories and potential stories the whole time, and the fact that I write for both adults and children means that there's always somewhere for those ideas to go. Mm. Like if it's, uh, if it's an idea that is a bit controversial, then the fact that I can write. That I write for adults means that I can still use that idea. And if it's an idea that's a bit implausible, then the fact that I write for kids means there's still something I can do with that idea. So this means that there's a way of getting them all out of my head. Um, yeah, and well, I mean, obviously. Uh, anyone can sit down and write anything they want to all the time, but, uh, I have a way of turning those ideas into money no matter how absurd they are or how controversial they are. So, which is amazing. I consider myself very, very lucky to have such a broad audience.

Natasha Rai 43:50

Well, I mean, I have to say, when I was reading, I know what you're hiding. I was feeling very anxious and I'm like, okay, it's because I'm the adult. It's okay. This is not, this is, you know, a teenager reading this will be like, this is great. Sorry, not

Jack Heath 44:01

sorry.

Natasha Rai 44:01

And I was just kept going, where are the parents? Why is no one getting involved in this? But that was me.

Jack Heath 44:08

It is funny, isn't it? How, um, when you're a kid? Uh, so, so I used to watch a lot of horror movies and as soon as I. Um, uh, as soon as I became a parent, I, I haven't watched a single horror movie since, I don't think, and it's not just the movies in which bad things happen to children that have, um, that I've, I've stopped watching. It's all horror movies because I find myself thinking. Why would I subject myself to more stress? Like, why would I do that? Whereas as a child, when you have parents looking after you and teachers looking after you and you, you exist in, uh, I'm aware that a lot of kids don't actually have access to safety. But I had a, a very safe, comfortable upbringing growing up in Canberra, Australia. And, um, so. I was like, now let's do something scary. Let's go on a rollercoaster. Or let's, uh, let's watch a horror movie. Or let's go to a h the haunted house ride at the, um, at the Canberra show or something. And now that I have two sort of, uh, very vulnerable. Um, things walking around out in the world. Mm. You know, where I can't protect them. Mm. Like I'm operating, operating on some background radiation level of anxiety all the time. So, uh, yeah.

Natasha Rai 45:35

Yeah. Um, I get it. So, yeah, so thank you for, for, for acknowledging and validating my anxiety.

Jack Heath 45:42

It's my pleasure.

Natasha Rai 45:44

So, um, the ideas that are bubbling in your head is that like. Also part of your odd sock draw. Does it all kind of live in there? Yeah. Or are there things that you're like, oh, they go together really well already? Or do you have to kind of wait and see? I so, yeah.

Jack Heath 46:00

No, no, no. I, um, the, the idea is bubbling, so I don't get a new idea very often, but it happens. Uh, at least once a month, which is good because if, if it only takes two or three ideas combined to make a, um, to make a book, and I put out three books a year, then once a month is more than enough. But just, uh, just by way of example, a few years ago. Um, someone reached out to me, uh, he was, uh, he was an academic, um, and he was part of fog, the Future Operations research group, and they were doing a lot of research into, um. Uh, future military conflicts that Australia might get dragged into. And he wanted to know if I wanted to use any of his research and any of that think tanks research, um, in my thrillers, because that would be a win-win. I get to write an exciting thriller and they get to have more, um, more eyeballs on the, the research that they're putting out because that, that's, that's why it exists.

Natasha Rai 47:13

Wow.

Jack Heath 47:14

Interesting. Yeah. And so it's great that I've been in the industry long enough that, you know, interesting people just kind of reach out to me and like hand me ideas. Uh, and so I started working on this story, um, that had, so that there were like, so it's military. Futuristic thriller, which is not the kind of thing I normally write, but it is the kind of thing I really enjoy.

Natasha Rai 47:42

Mm.

Jack Heath 47:42

And I was having a lot of fun with it, but, uh, part of it, so. I, I didn't feel like I had enough for a full book on its own. And also the publishers that I usually worked with weren't interested in publishing it on its own either, because it wasn't like, the further you get into your career, the more you end up kind of. If you're lucky enough to be successful, the more you get kind of locked into a genre. And the, the publishers were like, well, this isn't really crime and crime is kind of the brand that we are building for you. Uh, so we don't want it. But then I had entirely separately for years been working on a sort of. Uh, a meta crime thriller about a writer who dies leaving behind an unfinished manuscript, and the manuscript was going to be what got him killed. And I've always loved those sort of story within a story, things where, um, you get to So Misery by Stephen King, one of my favorite books and. When I was watching the movie and realized that the movie wasn't going to have any of the story he was writing, I felt so ripped off because that was a big part of what I enjoyed about the book. And similarly, yellow Face, like I really loved Yellow Face. I thought that was an amazing book, but I really wanted to read the book that the book was about. Yes. As well, you know? Right. That, that, that felt like a conspicuous omission to me. And so anyway, I started working on this meta crime thriller. But, uh, the whole time the, the unfinished manuscript that the writer had been working on in the story, that was always kind of a, just a sort of blank space in my head. It was like, um, just sort of generic fantasy book goes here, was kind of what I had. Yeah. And then the moment that it occurred to me that this futuristic military thriller. Could be the unfinished manuscript. Um, that was like, that was a, a nuclear explosion in my head. I was like, yes, that is perfect. Those two things, like what this book is missing is exactly what that other book has. And they just, so that was a process of two ideas bubbling alongside the one, another four. Uh, uh, since at least 2018 and probably further back, and I've started writing the book now, it won't be out until at least 2028. So this is usually a 10 year process at a minimum.

Natasha Rai 50:17

Oh wow. It's amazing. Um, oh my god, we're running outta time and I have so much more I wanna ask you, but sorry,

Jack Heath 50:25

I waffle.

Natasha Rai 50:25

No, no, no, no. This is great. Oh, I've learned so much. Oh my God, it's amazing. Um, so last couple of questions. Given how long you've been in this industry, like 20 years, right?

Jack Heath 50:36

Yeah.

Natasha Rai 50:37

What have you figured out, or what have you discovered that helps you create a sustainable writing career and actually building this career?

Jack Heath 50:48

Hmm. I think the most important thing I've learned. So, I mean, because the industry has changed so much over the course of the last 20 years, um, what I was doing back then wouldn't necessarily work now. Like, for example, when, uh, my first book was published because it was picked out of a slush pile and I was a total unknown, that that never happens these days. I, I mean, it was rare back then. It's unheard of now. Mm mm So, um, whenever someone asks me, for example, how did I get into the industry, I always have to. Preface it by saying, look, this is not advice.

Natasha Rai 51:26

Yes, yes.

Jack Heath 51:26

I can tell you how to break into the industry in 2005. Um, but a few things have remained consistent. Uh, one that has remained consistent is that people are always talking about how. Um, books are dying like for the last 20 years nonstop. Everyone has been saying the publishing industry is about to collapse, and they always attribute it to something different. So at the moment,

Natasha Rai 51:57

that's actually quite comforting to hear that because it always sounds like it's on the verge of collapsing.

Jack Heath 52:03

I know. I feel like it, uh, possibly it has been on the verge of collapsing. Since the first novel came out, however many, hundreds of years ago that was. Um, but so when I first started out, like video games were going to kill novels, no one reads anymore more. No one reads fiction anymore because video games. And then after I'd been in the industry only a couple of years, the Kindle came out. Everyone said, ah, eBooks are gonna kill physical books. Um, and then it was, uh, audio books like people can't even read anymore. They can only listen, which I don't think, I think that's a pretty primitive understanding of what audiobooks are, but, but nevermind. And now it's ai. Like AI is going to kill. Books, writers will be a thing of the past. So, um, I guess you can take a certain amount of comfort. Like, uh, I'm, I'm aware that, you know, maybe AI will kill books. Like, just because everyone has been wrong every time in the past doesn't mean that they're wrong now. Yeah. And. I'm aware of how I feel, for example, about climate change is that I, I hear a lot of other people saying like, ah, you know, people have been predicting the end of the world for millennia. It's never happened. And I'm like, yeah, well that doesn't mean it will never happen. And also it doesn't, like, maybe it never happened because. People did something about all those threats and we should be doing something about this. You know, it's like no one has died of a spider bite since the seventies, uh, in Australia. Did you know that? Even though we are No, I did not menacing. I did not know that.

Natasha Rai 53:42

Yeah.

Jack Heath 53:43

But, so if anyone tells you that stat and then says, so don't be scared of fight spiders. I'm like, why do you think no one has died of a spider bite? Exactly. We're terrified of spiders. Exactly. That fear is what keeps us safe. Yes. Um, but just, sorry. I know we're, we're low on time and I'm, I'm going off on several different tangents at once, but the other thing that I have learned that. Has consistently helped me throughout my career is to embrace negative feedback. Um, I have discovered that, uh, po. Positive feedback. I don't get a lot from, I mean, it feels nice, so positive feedback feels nice to receive and it feels nice to give as well. Whereas negative feedback is hard to give and harder still to receive.

Natasha Rai 54:32

Mm-hmm.

Jack Heath 54:32

But it helps so much. I think every, every time I have improved as a writer, it's because someone told me I was doing it wrong and hopefully they told. Told me nicely, and hopefully they gave me some suggestions for how I should improve as opposed to just saying what I was doing wasn't right.

Natasha Rai 54:52

Yeah.

Jack Heath 54:52

But I've, the more I have embraced that, the, um, the better I've gotten as a writer, I think, and I have also had experiences with other artists and other creatives. Where, uh, I, I feel mean saying this. So, and I've, I've learned to kind of, if you feel mean saying something often, that's because it's not true. So maybe you shouldn't say it. So, but put, take this with a grain of salt. Sure. Because I'm not a hundred percent on it, but I do feel like I know a few writers and a few creatives who are very prickly about. Taking on, um, negative feedback and whose careers have kind of since stalled and there, there may be a lot of reasons for that. Mm. And there may be no reason for that. It might just be bad luck.

Natasha Rai 55:42

Mm-hmm.

Jack Heath 55:42

But. I, um, but when, when people ask me for, uh, a piece of advice that I can give without knowing their particular circumstances, that is definitely it. Like, listen to negative feedback and embrace it and collect it as much as you can because yeah, it's, it's hard to hear. Mm. Um, but you know, a work of art is work and that's part of the work is absorbing the negative feedback.

Natasha Rai 56:10

And then even with that advice, you can kind of use it in a way that takes away the helplessness.'cause I know that when you get negative feedback, it can feel so hurtful or take you to a place of, well, I can't do anything. Or This is. I'm terrible. Yeah. You can turn, reframe it to go, okay, well you know what? I'm gonna use it and I can do something about it. Maybe

Jack Heath 56:32

that's, that's true and I would say to, um, people who are emerging writers

Natasha Rai 56:38

or course. Yes. Which is my next question. Top tip. Yes.

Jack Heath 56:40

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So emerging writers and aspiring writers, just on the, the negative feedback. If you get some negative feedback and you take it personally, then. That's actually a good sign. It shows that you put a lot of yourself into the work, like if an attack on the work feels like an attack on you, mm-hmm. Then that just shows how much effort you put in. So that's good. Like, yeah. If you got, uh, if your work was criticized and you were an emerging writer and you didn't take it personally, then that might show that actually you hadn't worked hard enough. And if you're like, oh, well, you know, so what, then that's, that's probably a bad sign. But, um,

Natasha Rai 57:21

Jack, that was literally the first time I've heard it said like that. And that makes so much sense. That's why it does hurt so much, because you have put yourself into it and you have taken it seriously and it's work as you say.

Jack Heath 57:33

And I think it takes a few books before, maybe it's not even a few books, maybe it takes a few books on Goodreads specifically for you to realize, Hey, all these people read the same book. Like a third of them gave it five stars. Another third of them gave it one star. Hey, maybe what they are saying about the book says more about their tastes than it does about the book itself, given that they Mm mm the, the, it's hard to square that circle and, oh, circle that square. I forget how that, that particular expression goes. But then that means you can go, okay, if this is just about the preferences of the person reading and their own tastes and stuff, then that frees you up to look at what they've said and decide. What to take from it. Like every, every negative thing that they've said, you go, okay, is there some truth in that or does that fit with what I think or not like? Mm-hmm. If I rewrote the book to match this person's specifications, would I make it, would I like it more or would I like it less? You can kind of distance yourself and just focus on the, the thing that matters, which is what to do with that feedback. Like how to, how to, pardon me? How to change your craft in future. Um, the other bit of advice I would give to like aspiring, uh, aspiring writers and aspiring authors is like, keep an eye out for. Nonprofit writing groups and organizations. I think those are a hugely underutilized resource. Um, I think so here in Canberra we have Marion. Mm-hmm. Marion Inc. Formerly the Act, CT Writers Center. It does a great job of promoting and supporting writers in their work in and around the a CT. Every state in Australia has something like that. Mm-hmm. And even if it's not like. A, uh, like a government funded arts organization as Marian is, there are small, like writing circles. Um, again, here in Canberra, there's the CSFG, the Canberra Speculative Fiction Guild, organizations like that where it's not people trying to make a profit, it's just groups of people who are passionate about the art. Um, those. I know people who, I don't wanna, I don't wanna offend any sort of university academics here, and I, I, I want to support universities because all the people I respect are on the side of uni universities and against the side of fascism. But I do wanna say that maybe instead of paying, you know, tens of thousands of dollars for a creative writing degree, you could. Pay less than a hundred dollars to join one of these nonprofits or these guilds or something, and find yourself surrounded by like-minded people who, um, you know, they may be less qualified to give you feedback than a, a professor of creative writing. But as long as the gaps in their knowledge and experience don't overlap with the gaps in your knowledge and experience, you can learn something from them and, um, all it will cost you besides whatever the membership fee is. Usually not very much is. Taking the time to engage with them and read their work. And again, I'm an autistic person, so I don't like engaging with other people. I find it difficult. I find it scary, I find it stressful. Um, I would love to just kind of be alone all the time, but I'm aware that that is an unhealthy impulse and that almost. Everything good that has happened in my career has come because I made the effort to overcome my fears and reach out and connect with someone else. So that's, I I can't turn that into a soundbite, but hopefully

Natasha Rai 1:01:21

No,

Jack Heath 1:01:22

no, that is, and listeners understood kind of what I was getting at.

Natasha Rai 1:01:24

Definitely. And thank you so much, Jack. Um, and by the time this episode is, I know what you're hiding will be out. Yes. Everywhere. Everywhere. So

Jack Heath 1:01:33

hope you like it, everybody.

Natasha Rai 1:01:34

Yep. Get yourself a copy. Thank you, Jack.

Tina Strachan 1:01:41

Thank you for listening to the book Deal podcast. We're able to bring you these weekly writerly chats because of our amazing patrons. Join the TPD family by becoming a member of our Patreon community@patreon.com slash the book deal podcast. And if you love the pod, please give us a rating or review. And don't forget to follow us on Instagram and Facebook.