The Book Deal

The Writing Deal: Natasha, Madeleine and Tina discuss editing deadlines, getting heckled and reading while writing

• The Book Deal • Season 2 • Episode 86

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0:00 | 37:52

Hosts Tina Strachan, Madeleine Cleary, and Natasha Rai introduce The Book Deal podcast and share monthly updates. Tina takes a break from an intense manuscript, catches up on author admin, runs a kids’ workshop at The Little Book Nook in Palmwoods, prepares for workshops and Bethany Loveridge’s Josie Mack launch at Quick Brown Fox, and flags opportunities including the Lighthouse Arts Residency (Hunter Writers Centre) and the Spier(s) Prize for middle-grade fiction via UWA Publishing ($5,000 plus a publishing deal). Madeleine finishes a book-two rewrite, recounts being heckled while interviewing Belinda Alexandra at Readings, and discusses craft insights from Dervla McTiernan and Benjamin Stevenson about questions and clues per page. Tash explains completing structural edits quickly by prioritizing time and using Emily Maguire as an early reader, and outlines an upcoming library workshop on pitching, including X-meets-Y, comp titles, and “vibe sheets.”

00:00 Podcast Intro

00:56 Hosts Catch Up

01:15 Tina Writing Reset

02:00 Workshops Launches

03:22 Declutter Phone Detox

05:01 Grants Residencies

07:12 Mads Rewrite Win

08:20 Heckler At Event

12:40 Tash Deadline Sprint

17:44 Crime Writing Tricks

21:34 Hooks And Structure

22:46 Reading While Writing

25:07 Avoiding Close Comparisons

28:42 Pitching And Comp Titles

32:21 Vibe Sheets And Playlists

33:58 Release Dates And Wins

34:55 Dymocks Top 101 Spotlight

37:06 Wrap Up And Farewell

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You can find out more about Tina, Madeleine and Natasha and follow their journeys here:

Tina Strachan (@td_strachan) • Instagram photos and videos
Tina Strachan children's book author
Madeleine Cleary (@madeleineclearywrites) • Instagram photos and videos
Madeleine Cleary | Author
Natasha Rai (@raiwriting) • Instagram photos and videos
Natasha Rai | Author | Mentor

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This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books. We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal. So no matter what stage of writing your at. We've got you covered. I'm Tina Strachan. I'm Madeleine Cleary. And I'm Natasha Rai. And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors one deal at a time. The Book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.

Madeleine Cleary

Hello, ladies Hello. Hello. Good morning. Um- Everyone's looking beautiful with our new portrait lighting- I know. Thank you for showing me that

Natasha Rai

little

Madeleine Cleary

trick

Tina Strachan

that we've discovered on Zoom.

Natasha Rai

So I'm so curious 'cause it's been a month already. I don't know how, but it has. What have you been up to, Tina? What's your update? What have you been doing?

Tina Strachan

Oh, um, yes, lots of writing. I think last time we chatted, I chatted about, um, the manuscript that I was working on that was, uh, really, really intense and just really took a lot of my brain space and a lot of my, um, my nervous system energy as well. Um, so I've actually tried to sort of pare back a little bit from that and, uh, and have a little bit of a break. So I've just spent this last week, um, not in that head writing space. Head writing space? Writing head space, um, and which has been really good, but it's also allowed me to catch up on a, a, a few things that I've sort of had put to the side as well because I couldn't get my brain out of that. So a lot of like, you know, the author admin, which we, which we talk about a lot, and, um, so that, that's been nice. Um, I did a kids' workshop actually at a beautiful bookstore up in Palmwoods, which is on the Sunshine Coast here in Queensland, at The Little Book Nook, it's called, and Kay, the, the wonderful, um, owner there, uh, that... The little shop is great. It's, um... it's a, just a kids' bookstore, uh, features lots of, um, you know, local authors, and, uh, it's in such a beautiful space with, like, a little cafe around it, and oh, it was so nice. It was such a beautiful day, and just all you could smell was, like, people's bacon and eggs coming past. And, and you know, we just sat there and, and had a nice little, um, writing workshop, created our own little zoo stories, and, and then we did some, some fun craft afterwards. So that was really beautiful, and it was lovely to go up there and, visit the store, 'cause I hadn't been yet. So, so that was fun. And, yeah, so I've also been preparing for a few other workshops coming up, and, I will be also helping out in a couple of weeks with, Bethany Loveridge's, book launch, so, getting my head into that space as well. So, her new book, Josie Mack, will be out, in a few weeks, and so that's gonna be really fun at, Quick Brown Fox as well, up in Brisbane. And, I've been looking into a few grants and, and residencies. Mm-hmm. Oh. There's quite a few around at the moment. I don't know, have you ladies been keeping an eye out? No.

Madeleine Cleary

Which ones? I'm completely, like, I have no idea.

Tina Strachan

You know what? I was out, out of the loop too, I think. And, and, okay, one thing that also that I've done over these last few weeks is I completely cleaned out my bedroom and decluttered, and it's got basically nothing in it now, which is fantastic. 'Cause I had a huge to be, uh, to be read pile beside my bed and, you know, on the floor and, or just kind of everywhere and, like, you know, notebooks and stuff. And I just, I was like, "I need to get on top of this and just clear it all out." I did everything. Ladies, I mopped the walls. Yes. Yes. I mopped the walls. I went hardcore on this, okay? I had a, a full hyper fixation. But I tell you what, it's beautiful in there now. I waited till my husband was away for a few days so he couldn't interrupt me, and he, and just like just went nuts. Um, and so one big thing that I did was I took my phone out of my bedroom and put it, um- Oh you know, completely into- Mm-hmm my little work nook that I have. Um, so that I don't... I mean, it was my alarm, but you know what? There were alarm clocks before phones, so there is ways around this. And, um, I, so I, I moved it out, and I tell you what, I've been reading more. Mm-hmm. And I've just been, it's just been nice just to not have it there, because I would always jump into bed, which is sort of like, you know, a little bit of time for reading before going to sleep, but, you know, you always pick it up and think, "I'll just check this one thing, and then I'll just check this one thing." Mm-hmm. So it's worked really well because, um, my s- like, usage of my, you know, social media and stuff has completely gone down hugely. Well, but the reason why I was saying that and talking about socials and bringing out my room and things like that was my, my, it had gone, my usage had gone down completely. Yes. So- Yes it has gone back up in the last probably week, um, for a few reasons. Okay, so this is what happened. So, you know, we were just talking about grants and things like that, and I agree. I was also c- when I hadn't been on it for, so s- you know, a period of time, um, I was also not really interested in it. There was like nothing really on there to interest me, and I think it just kind of screws with the algorithm, right? But once I got back on and I was specifically looking for something, I think I was looking for a grant or I was looking for something else, and on- you know, once I did that, it just like repopulated my algorithm again- Mm-hmm with like all these things that was happening around me, and as much as, you know, you hate, you know, the Insta and the spending the time on it, it was, I find that now it is really good for finding out about all these other things that I just really wasn't finding out about before. Um, because I mean, I get newsletters and stuff from writers' centers that do have all these- you know, um, links to all these things that are happening. But it really was, it's just thrown up, like, all these awards and grants and residencies have just been thrown at me now. So what are you,

Madeleine Cleary

what, which, can you create a list for me and send it? Yeah.

Tina Strachan

Yes, I can. But I ju- I wrote down a couple that I thought I'd mention just, uh, now, actually- Yes because I know someone. So the Lighthouse Arts Residency, have you seen that one? Not really. In Newcastle? Yes, it's through the- Mm-hmm Hunters Writers Centre. Mm. Looks incredible. Um, somebody I know here on the Gold Coast, um, Liv Laorkant, she just recently went, um, and it just looked amazing, and she got so much done. And you, I think you can stay for a week, I don't know, maybe longer. Um, that was incredible. I think that's a rolling one, open, almost- That's right. Yes all the time. Um, and there was, uh, one that came up, I don't know if this is a new one or not, but new to me, um, the Spiers Prize. It's for middle-grade fiction, so anyone writing middle grade, go and check it out. It's through UWA Publishing. Um, the prize is $5,000 and a publishing deal. Amazing. So, yeah, so have a look at that. I think it closes at the end of this month, or maybe next month. So go and check it out, for those of you who are writing middle grade, 'cause that's a amazing prize.

Natasha Rai

Thanks, Tina.

Tina Strachan

That's

Natasha Rai

okay.

Tina Strachan

That was a bit all over the shop, but, but anyway, that's where we're at, and I will make you a list of all these amazing opportunities that are flooding me now.

Madeleine Cleary

How about you, Mads? What have you been up to? Two, two things. I wanna tell two stories. So- Yes um, yesterday, I finished the rewrite of my book two. Amazing. Congratulations. How did that feel? Oh, it felt so good, and I finished at 4:30 on a Friday, so it was just excellent. Just really, just, yeah, and- What'd you do to

Tina Strachan

celebrate?

Madeleine Cleary

Well, I went out to dinner with my parents, and we, I saw, um, Devil Wears Prada 2 with Mom.

Tina Strachan

Oh. Excellent. Which

Madeleine Cleary

was great. So we had margaritas, and it was fantastic. Um, yeah, I'm so happy. Oh, my God. I mean, I still need to reread the rewrite, of course. Um, and I need to compile all the notes that I've left to myself in various locations, um, that are really all very crucial for the story, and I need to follow up on when I go and do the rewrite. But, um, yeah, I'll do that. Um, but yeah, this, it's, it's taken me a long time, like, over two and a half months. Wow. So, yeah, I really wanna hear from Tash, 'cause she, she's rewritten her manuscript in, like, two weeks, the same amount of words, so I just really wanna know her, um, how she did that. Um, yeah, and then the other interesting thing, I got heckled last Tuesday night at an event. First time I've ever been heckled before Oh, I mean, sometimes you get some interesting questions. They're always from men as well, like, in the audience. But this particular occasion, um, I was asked to interview Belinda Alexandra, who is a wonderful historical fiction writer from our city, and she is just absolutely lovely. Like, she is such an incredible and professional and talented person, and her new novel, The Italian Correspondent, is wonderful. I absolutely loved diving into Italy, post-war Italy, so I'd highly recommend it. Um, but yeah, so we went to readings on Tuesday night and, um, we were having a really good chat, and then I noticed there was something in my periphery, and I could hear some, some noises. And I looked over, and this guy had come in from the street. Um, he was holding a cross, a wooden cross, and had a drink of some kind of form in his other hand. Um, and, and it was so funny 'cause afterwards, talking with the HarperCollins rep, um, who was there, and, um, she said that he was reaching into his pocket, um, for something at one point, and she was watching him, and he, he, um, pulled out a, a glue gun. A glue gun? That's so

Natasha Rai

weird. Look,

Madeleine Cleary

you get all types at book, um, events in Melbourne, I think. Belinda was great 'cause he, he... when we opened it up, well, opened it up for questions, and immediately he started talking. Um, and he said, um, uh, "Just wanna clarify, are you one of those woman writers?" Oh, my God. Oh, my God. And Belinda was great. She was so good. I was kind of just like, "Ah, I have no idea what to say." What's a woman writer? Yeah, what does that even mean? A, a writer who is a woman. "Are you one of those woman writers?" That was the kind of tone. Even me. I have no idea. And I feel like it's obvious. I have no idea, but he had his cross and his glue gun and his drink. He was having a great time. He was, yeah. Yeah. So, um, yeah. Uh, so eventually he did leave, um, but that's the first time I've ever come across that where, you know, it's something... someone's- Yeah stumbled in from the street, and it, it, it, it does make you feel very kind of uncomfortable. Mm-hmm. So I don't know if any of you have ever had something like that happen before.

Tina Strachan

No, I haven't. No. No, I'm trying to think. No. I've had people stumble in. Well, I've certainly had people st- stumble in, but they've not had, they've been lovely. Had surprise hugs and things along those lines, but like, no, they've always been

Madeleine Cleary

Readings were great. The staff there, they kind of had a chat with him. Didn't tell him to leave, just to be respectful, and he eventually moved on very grumpily. But, um, other than that, it was a lovely chat. Um, and I, yeah, I feel like I learnt a lot from Belinda and how she handled it herself. Like, she's been in the industry for 24 years. She's probably seen everything- Mm I would say. Um, and she just took it in her stride, was very calm, you know, very considerate. She's had a very interesting life. She, she can manage people, so I think I'm gonna, I'm gonna learn a lesson from that.

Natasha Rai

Mm. Mm. Gosh. How weird. That has, that's never happened to me, but I've, I know I've scared a couple of people. Um- Really? Last year I was doing this event at, um... Oh my God, I can't believe I did this. I was at Paramatta Library, and I was doing an event with Zahar Gamilgen, and we were talking about our books, and there were these two young girls leaving. They were trying to be quiet, 'cause we were in this, like, the middle of the library, and I don't know, I just got a mischievous impish spirit in me, and I just yelled out, "Sex!" as they were walking past, and they were so embarrassed. I don't know why I did it, so I don't know. 'Cause

Madeleine Cleary

you're cheeky, that's why.

Natasha Rai

Mm.

Madeleine Cleary

Oh my gosh, Tash, you're so funny. They must have been just mortified. They

Natasha Rai

were. They were mortified. I was just mo- more thinking that they're gonna look at me and go, "Oh my God, there's, like, an old woman yelling out, 'Sex!'" which was the funny part in my brain.

Tina Strachan

Well, as long as, you know, as long as you found it amusing, Tash. I did.

Madeleine Cleary

Now, so Tash, also in the last month, we've cau- we caught up, uh, in- Yes in real life, which was really lovely. Yes, we did catch up in real life. In real life, without Tina. Sorry, Tina, we missed you. Down in Frankston, which I'd, I'd never really been to in, in my life, living in Melbourne, which is very funny. There's lots of places I've never been to in Melbourne. Um, yeah. I've, I've driven past it and driven through it. I went to the, the Mount Martha Beach once, but, um, yeah, anyway, that makes me sound very pretentious. But, um, uh, so we were talking, Tash, and I, I remember you saying to me, "Oh, you know, I've, I've... You've got six weeks to submit your, um, your structurals." Um, and I think two weeks had passed, and I said- Yes "I can't believe you're doing this course in Melbourne. Like, how are you fitting it all in?" You're like, "Well, I already finished them," and it was only been two weeks. I was like, "What?" Okay, so I'll- And

Tina Strachan

it was a big

Madeleine Cleary

rewrite,

Natasha Rai

so just

Madeleine Cleary

tell me how. How are you doing this? Okay, so all right.

Natasha Rai

So I think, so I realize that I do know something about myself in terms of deadlines. When I have a deadline, even if I'm worried and scared and panicked, I just figure out how to meet it, and I figure out what's important to me. So for me- The important part of the six weeks was, yes, I have to get the rewrite done, but I really need someone to read it before I send it back to my publisher. And I thought, "How..." And I don't want them to read it now, because I know there are things I can fix on my own. So, so I thought, "Right, if I can finish this in two weeks," and I asked my reader, who is Emily Maguire, if she can do it in two weeks, which she said she can, and then I've got two weeks when she gives it back to me to make any changes that she raises. So that was motivation enough. So what I was doing was I said no to pretty much any extra social stuff that I hadn't already organized. Um, I used literally every minute I possibly had to work on it. So for example, on a, um, counseling day, when I have big breaks between clients, I usually, like, will watch a video or listen to an audiobook re- all related to therapy and that work. This time I just used every minute to write, um, instead of doing the professional development. And then I was waking up... I was doing, I was doing a Tina basically. I was waking up extra early to do the writing, then the exercise, and then going to work. And then the best part, of course, is the... 'Cause I've been going into Writing New South Wales once a week. It's just having those six hours or whatever it is- Mm with no, literally no interruptions. I don't have to do the laundry, I don't have to put a load of, you know- Mm. C- clear the dishwasher. So all of those things helped me, and I was just determined- Mm to do it. So I just made myself do it. And I also did have a plan, Maz, that I actually thought, "Right, I may not get this done by the time I come to Melbourne for that course." So I had already decided that I was gonna have the airport time, the flight time, and- I was just gonna say, yeah. Yeah. And time- It's good writing time, isn't it? Yes. On a plane. And then I thought even in the evenings, like, I just... Like, if I really wanted to see you, Maz, then I'll say, "I'll just do that," and then the other nights I'll just go straight back to my Airbnb and write. Mm. So I knew I had that option, but I guess I didn't need it. And that's what kept me going. Mm. And that's how I did it. Yeah. It was hard. And I guess big, big motivation knowing that Emily Maguire has agreed to read your work as well. Well, she's sh- I really... I mean, obviously she's an amazing writer, but I just really trust her feedback, because she'll just tell me things that I can do something about. Like, sh- I love her questions, and it's exactly what, what I thought would happen. So I got back on Wednesday after I saw you, and then we met up on the Friday, and she broke it down for me. And since then I've been working on it, and I just finished in terms of her feedback. So now I've got one more week to read the whole thing and send it back, and that's my deadline.

Tina Strachan

That's amazing.

Natasha Rai

Oh, yes.

Tina Strachan

So do you think- I, um, go on like the shorter timeframes, do you think a shorter timeframe, Madeleine, would be helpful- No for you? Or, but you also, Madeleine, you were saying, I don't know if we chatted about this last time, you felt like, um, you wanted to, even though you only had really the last third, was it, that you really- Mm had to make changes to, you really wanted to start from the beginning and kind of go the whole way through, which, which took time, didn't it? It did. 'Cause you wanted to change some beginning stuff. So yeah, yeah, at different stages and, of, of your edits, I s- I

Madeleine Cleary

reckon I rewrote half the manuscript, actually- Yeah in the last couple of months. Um- Wow and I think I just, uh, the, I had to really work on the plot. Because it's a crime- Mm the threads, the threads were uneven, and I think the structure was a little bit uneven, and there was, uh, th- so I had to really think through, you know, that. So a lot of the time I think I've used in the last few months has been thinking.

Tina Strachan

Mm.

Madeleine Cleary

And even for me, like, a, a lot of, I was listening, who was it? Uh, I think it was, I went to Bet- see Benjamin Stevenson and Dervla McTiernan at Melbourne Writers Festival last weekend, and they said that, I think it was Dervla, that she always really likes to know what the ending is, and she has to think through what the ending is when she's writing. She's not necessarily a, a plotter, and that's quite different from a lot of crime writers. But I think that was my issue this time. Like, I think I didn't r- I, I had an idea or concept of what the ending could be, but I hadn't nailed it, and so it didn't, the manuscript didn't come together properly, I think, until I nailed the ending. Once I had the ending, then I could work backwards, so I'm really gonna hold that. Do you know, another really interesting thing they said, which I loved, and I wonder if it applies to literary and kids fiction as well. So Dervla, every time she write, on every page of her book, she poses a question to the reader, and that's how she keeps them turning the pages. As she goes through, she will answer some of those questions. Of course, there's the bigger question, which is the whodunit, you know, that comes at the end. But to keep a reader engaged and page-turning, there are little questions that flow through the manuscript every single page. And Benjamin Stevenson does something different. He, uh, did something similar, sorry. He has a clue on every single page. Ooh. Which I think is insane. Imagine, he has to think about 350 clues, and it's a very kind of structured process. Wow. So anyway, I thought that was really curious. Don't know if you both think of that.

Tina Strachan

I love that. So, so when you say pose a question, is it- Mm actually a question, or she's just, like, sh- forming it so that, or writing it in a way that forms a question in your mind?

Madeleine Cleary

No, it could be, you know, someone on the page, someone comes in who they see and they recognize So the question is- Okay who is that person? And then on the next page- Yeah, yeah there's an object or something that- Okay and it's like, "Oh, but what, what, how does that relate?" So it's, it's making the reader ask the questions, going, "Wait, so why is this... Is this important?" Mm. And, and then those, they get answered along the way. Mm. Mm. Does that make sense? Yeah. Mm.

Tina Strachan

Like, or like m- many, many tiny little cliffhangers along the way.

Madeleine Cleary

Correct. That's what it is. Kind of like, "Oh. Oh, hang on. Well, I want more." Yes. Oh, I like that. And then, and then you have to reward the reader- Mm because you can't, in crime, you can't only give them, you can't give them the answer at the very end. Like, you have to reward them along the way with answers to these, like, minor things.

Tina Strachan

Yeah.

Natasha Rai

That's a, that's such an interesting concept, because that sounds to me that you've got an eye in some way about for the, like, as the reader. Um, do you know what I mean by that? So I think I don't think that way, because I'm so immersed in the character and the journey that might be happening, that I'm not really thinking about the impact of, on the reader.

Madeleine Cleary

Yes, yes. Yeah. That's, that's true, Tash. No, I can understand that. Mm. Because you're, you're, you're in the mind of the... Yeah. And I suppose Dervla said something about that too. She said that she's trying not to think too much about the reader, but writing the story that she wants to write.

Tina Strachan

Mm.

Madeleine Cleary

But I think you can't... I think when, perhaps when you are a commercial fiction writer, you can't help but not think of the reader. Yeah, I was gonna say, like, I

Natasha Rai

think, yeah, it's a different, it's a slightly different awareness, isn't it, or curiosity or noticing that, that I just, I d- I don't think I ha- Well, I... No, I know I don't have, and I don't... I feel like if I tried to bring that to something I was working on, it would actually just trip me up- Mm and make me a bit- Feel too forced s- yeah, self-conscious in some way on the page, and that wouldn't work for me personally.

Madeleine Cleary

But for kids, maybe it, it, it might relate for kids, 'cause you're trying- Mm to keep them turning page to cue.

Tina Strachan

Yeah. Yeah, you absolutely just need a, yeah- The hooks a sh- b- hooks everywhere, yeah. And it is. It's, it's like little hooks. So does she go... Sorry, does she naturally do it as she goes through, or she goes back and, and purposefully, like, inserts them? Maybe. Or maybe she's just done it so often now- She may have it just kind of just happens. Yeah. Mm.

Madeleine Cleary

Uh, I like that. I, I act- actually made me think when I w- now when I'm reading back my work and just seeing, and- Mm I mean, uh, you, you do tend to do it as well. Like, I actually have seen these types of things. Exactly. Mm. And I think literary fiction, it might... There are, because there are massive hooks in that as well, like- Oh, yeah, yeah um, 'cause, you know, especially when you jump into a really good book It starts with, you know, there's a conflict, there's- Mm a question, there's... And there's an overarching question, um, and there's something that you're exploring. I don't know. I just think, I thought it was such an interesting concept- It is to think about and honor. And it,

Natasha Rai

and it might be worth thinking about more consciously, because what you're talking about really is structure, isn't it? It is structure, yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Cleary

Entirely.

Natasha Rai

And, yeah. But, you know, like the other thing I was, I've been thinking about as well, 'cause especially around your question, Mads, about what helped me get there in terms of that tight deadline, and I ca- and I'll just f- it's been on my mind a lot. So what actually helps me as well is reading. Mm. So, uh, for me pa- I, I've heard so many writers now saying that they can't read when they're writing something or working intensively on, on their manuscripts. But for me, reading is so useful and helpful because, A, it kind of, it doesn't take me out of my work, but it kind of does something. I don't know what it does. I'm still trying to formulate this, so I'm not gonna like take up airtime f- figuring it out in real time. But what I do know is it helps me when I read something that is beautiful or touches me in some way, 'cause then I'm like, "That, that's what I wanna do in my work." So obviously not copying what this person's done, but the impact of it, and then going, "Well, how, how, how did they do it? How, how would I be able to do that with what I'm working on?" I find that really helpful and really useful, and as a, almost like a, not a goal, but like a, I don't know. What's the thing where you're... An aspiration.

Madeleine Cleary

Mm.

Natasha Rai

Some- yeah, something to aspire to. I

Madeleine Cleary

agree. Mm. I, I agree. I, I've never had any issues with reading while writing new works. Mm. Um, I maybe tend to avoid historical fiction perhaps though as a genre, particularly where, you know, there might be a crime or it's set in a similar era, just because I don't want that to feed into my work. Mm. Like, I want mine to be completely original. Um, but, but that's okay, 'cause I can read anything and, and I think particularly when you're reading really clean writing, that tends to have an impact for me- Mm when I'm writing. I make my writing a bit cleaner.

Tina Strachan

Mm.

Madeleine Cleary

Um, and you can see the influence of it, particularly if you're writing something over a longer period of time, like if you're writing something over a year. Mm. I can see the influences of different things coming through in your writing style. I don't know if you've ever noticed that. That ha- happened for me when I was writing The Butterfly Women, 'cause it took me a year to write that manuscript, and I noticed the points where I was reading things that, yeah, it really influenced it, which is cool.

Natasha Rai

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Madeleine Cleary

And it's not copying.

Natasha Rai

It's not. It's- No, because also I was thinking about that, a concept of copying. Mm. Like, how can you though? That's right. Because you- you're reading someone who's come with a distinct voice and a distinct character, so- Unless you're writing something really, really similar, it, I don't see how you could copy

Madeleine Cleary

There is a, a book out at the moment which I have not read, and it is set in Melbourne 19th century a- about spiritualism and seances

Tina Strachan

Ah.

Madeleine Cleary

I have not read that

Tina Strachan

book.

Madeleine Cleary

That to me, I will read that book after I've finished with the manuscript that I'm writing on Mm-hmm And then I will go and read it and enjoy it probably. But I just, you know, that's too close- Mm-hmm if you know what I mean. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah,

Tina Strachan

no, that makes sense. Yeah, there was some books that came out while I was writing Wild Zoo that were, like, had a lot of zoo influence in it, and I was like, "I'm not going anywhere near that." Yeah. As interested as I am to read them, I just, yeah, just didn't want to. And, uh, kind of luckily because there was one, you know, small inclusion in one of my... But I mean, you know, there's only so much... You will probably find, Madeleine, when you read that spiritual book later, there probably is l- some topics- Yeah maybe that you- Yeah cross over with, and that will be fine because there's only, you know, X amount of, I guess, sort of major topics that you have to include when you're talking, you know, spiritual and, or particular themes and, for me, being, you know, zoos and wild animals. And yeah, these books, um, these other books that came out while I was writing Wild Zoo, when I looked at them afterwards, I was like, "Oh, there was a few little kind of, um, inclusions," I guess, that I had included in mine as well, and I just thought, "Thank goodness," because number one, I, I would have, um... Well, if I thought it worked for the story, which it did when I was writing it, then what would I have done? I would have had to go back. If I'd already written it, I would've, I would've gone back and changed it. I would've taken it out 'cause I'd be like, "Oh, I don't want anyone to think that I've, you know, copied or anything like that." But it works so well in there, and I wanna keep it in, and, you know, I don't know if it... You know, I never ended up reading this particular part. I just know of it, that it was in there, and I was in this other book, and I just thought, "Well..." I mean, it could be comp- it's very likely completely different, but I just, yeah, I would've, that would've, part of the, my book would've felt really forced because I would've had to go in and really pull it out and find something else to put in and, and when that was the, the thing that just worked naturally for my story. Um, yeah, so I, I completely understand that it's a bit too close to home, isn't it? But I agree with both of you in the, um, reading and, like, what you were saying, Madeleine, s- especially really clean books and writing, and yeah, I, I almost- reach for, um... So if I'm reading a book while I'm writing and it's not the best ever, I will, I will actually put that away for a bit- Mm-hmm and try and find one, because I feel like it's kind of infiltrating you- Yes isn't it? Yeah Subconsciously, and, um, whether it's good or bad, um, or styles. Um, but yeah, if it's clean and it's, and it's, and it's smooth, and it's hugely enjoyable to read, really well done, I think it just... And I kind of in a way want it to infiltrate me and my own writing. It kind of feels like a little bit of practice, a little bit of exercise and, you know, sort of, you know, creating- Mm a bit of a writing practice, you know. And did you say aspiration, Tash? Did you say- Yeah, yeah. Yeah like, yeah, it, it feels like, okay, this is where I wanna take my writing to. Yeah, it's something. And I think it's, uh, yeah, it's a, I think it's a real thing, so. Yeah, but I, I understand if people can't read while they're writing for whatever reason,

Natasha Rai

Yeah, just something that I've been really th- pondering, I guess, the last few weeks. So what are you two excited about? What's coming up that's exciting for you or you're looking forward to?

Madeleine Cleary

Handing in the manuscript, I suppose, to my publisher. That will be good. Um, oh, I am doing a workshop next Friday at my local library on how to pitch to a publisher, which will be really fun.

Tina Strachan

Oh. Um, so

Madeleine Cleary

I did one earlier, like, uh, probably last year actually, on 101 for the Australian publishing industry, and so this is like the continuation of that. So it's, "Okay-" Oh, fantastic so you've got the manuscript. Yeah. Mm. How do you... What, what next? What do you do? Mm. I might get them to do a bit of like a, this X meets Y. Like, get them to start thinking out in that terms. Mm. Mm. Like, develop their elevator pitch. Comp titles. Think of their comp titles. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, that'll be really, really fun. Um, I'm looking forward to that. What about you both? Tina? Um,

Tina Strachan

I am just on... I'll, I'll just come back to that point, but yeah, I, I'm excited because, um, here on the Gold Coast, we have, you know, we're, we're a good hour or so away from Brisbane, which doesn't sound like a lot, but we But it is quite hard to get up there, and we've got train issues and stuff at the moment. And, um, it's, there's quite a few kid lit writers here on the Gold Coast, but we don't, we don't really have any v- venues for, like, really good launches and things down here, so it's hard to get everybody together. So, um, thank goodness for, I mentioned Liv Lorkin earlier. Um, she's an incredible author and illustrator, and, um, she, thank goodness, has been the one to take on creating a Gold Coast kid lit group. So if anyone is listening and they're from the Gold Coast and they're an author and an illustrator, um, check it out. I think you can find the group on, um, Instagram now. And, um, yeah, we finally had our first catch-up yesterday, and so we're, we're planning on many more, and many, and many more things to come. But it's, it's so nice to just finally get everybody together. We all sort of kind of n- know of, you know, each other, but just getting everybody together has been, uh, quite difficult, so that's been really lovely. Um, so looking forward to them, uh, some more of them. But, uh, when we did catch up, someone was mentioning that, um, when you were talking about X meets Y, Madeleine, um, sort of comp titles as well, it's a s- it's a similar thing, isn't it? Uh, apparently they've been told recently, um, that they need three comp titles. Okay. It's like a number, like three comp titles, uh, when they're pitching. So I don't know if you've heard of that. Um, like I just, I don't know why. No. I mean, sometimes submissions

Madeleine Cleary

I think a- ask for three. There are some, some publishers that will ask that. They actually ask for three? Interesting. But I like, I like u- using you as an example, Tina, um, for the X meets Y thing. Like, I don't think you need to... It hasn't, doesn't have to be a book.

Tina Strachan

Mm. No, agreed. And that's what I'm

Madeleine Cleary

gonna e- emphasize, like I like the fact that with, when you were promoting Wild Azura, it's like, you know- Mm it's Bindi, Bindi Irwin- Mm

Tina Strachan

you know,

Madeleine Cleary

as a concept rather- Yeah than necessarily it... And that, 'cause it, whatever helps position a publisher be able to position that book and understand what it is and who it suits, I think. Yes.

Tina Strachan

Agree. Yeah. It doesn't need to be a title. And, um, also Amy Kofman, remember, had really- Yes great, um, advice on that. And, um, if anyone wants, is listening and wants some more advice, uh, go back and listen to Amy's episode that we did. Um.

Madeleine Cleary

Yeah, hers was great. Oh. Amazing. Yeah.

Tina Strachan

Or was it Die Hard meets Home Alone meets, um- Um The Martian? The Martian.

Madeleine Cleary

Yeah. Just, and

Tina Strachan

something else in there as well. It was just, uh, yeah, just, just lots of fun. And all of that, no matter how you do it, if it's a movie, if it's a person, if it's a vibe, um, even, you know, I, it's, it's about creating a picture. But, you know, if a publisher asks for three comp titles, give them three comp titles. Yeah. Yes, yes. Like, don't, uh, just follow the instructions is,

Natasha Rai

yeah, um, amazing. And it's, it's, and it's interesting that you use that, um, term, Tina, vibe, because I literally had to do this for my publisher. They had a sales c- they had, had, I think it's done now, but they had a sales conference. And for book two, which is coming out next year, they asked me to put together some stuff for a vibe sheet, which was- Ooh the first time I've ever heard of one. A vibe sheet? But basically... Yeah. So it was, they asked me to think about other books, authors, actors, movies- Ooh TV shows, places a drink that you might, you know, have while you're reading the book Is it? So, uh, or songs. So it's all about what's the vibe? Ooh, I love that. Yeah, what's the vibe- Ooh, I'm gonna write that down of this book? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Like- That's great for a workshop, I think. Yeah. And I was like, ooh... At first I was like, "Oh, no. N- no, I can't do it." And then I kinda got into it and I was having lots of fun. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I

Tina Strachan

love that.

Natasha Rai

Mm. Yeah,

Tina Strachan

cause I create... I sometimes create, um, playlists for when I'm writing. Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah. Get me in the mood. Um, and again, and going back to Amie Kaufman, she also said she sometimes, um, creates like a bit of a Canva page of, um, just things a- Mm and, and that would be a vibe sheet. Yes, exactly. That's probably exactly what it is. Exactly, yes. Yeah, Canva with a vibe sheet. It's a little bit of this, a little bit of that. It's like this song, and it, it feels like eating strawberry ice cream, and like- Exactly yeah.

Natasha Rai

Like strolling on a beach in Goa or something like that, yeah. Okay, yes. I love a vibe sheet. That sounds fantastic.

Madeleine Cleary

Yeah. All right. Well, I'm gonna use that for my workshop next week, I think, Tash.

Tina Strachan

Yes. Get

Madeleine Cleary

everyone to create a vibe sheet. That's so cool.

Natasha Rai

It is. It really is. Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Madeleine Cleary

Love it.

Tina Strachan

Um, can I just... Now, I don't think, you know what, that we have officially spoken about release dates of, uh, your books, ladies.

Madeleine Cleary

I don't think I have one yet. You

Tina Strachan

don't have one? I don't even have

Madeleine Cleary

a title.

Tina Strachan

Well, when... But okay, well, until then, what, when can we expect something from you, Mads? A roundabout, do you have a roundabout release time? It's very exciting. I don't. Like, yeah. Oh, you don't? Okay.

Madeleine Cleary

I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Like, I can't say. 2027? Yeah, it's next year. Yeah, okay. It'll be, uh, first half next year.

Natasha Rai

Yeah,

Madeleine Cleary

same as you, Tash? But at the moment nothing's, nothing's locked in, so... Oh, yeah.

Natasha Rai

So I'm pretty sure March is locked in for me.

Tina Strachan

Ooh.

Natasha Rai

Um, I think I have a title, but I'm not sure I'm allowed to say it yet.

Tina Strachan

Okay. No, that's all right. Yeah. I just thought we hadn't even actually officially mentioned that, so it's very exciting. Big year next year. Yeah, it is.

Madeleine Cleary

2027, yeah. Um- I keep forgetting it's 2027 and calling it 2025. Yeah. I'm like, wait, no, this

Tina Strachan

is 2026. So yeah. Mm. But Madeleine, you've also had some very exciting news in the last few days though, haven't you?

Madeleine Cleary

Oh, really? What's that?

Tina Strachan

Oh, I mean, I mean, I don't know about you, but if I got in the Zomix top 101- Oh, I would- I'd just forget about it, too.

Madeleine Cleary

Uh, she just takes it

Tina Strachan

all in her

Madeleine Cleary

stride. Well, no. No, I guess, um, the reason why I, I'm not aloof about it, I promise. It's only 'cause I f- found out six weeks ago or more. So for me- Yeah the excitement happened, like, a while ago. And then it's come out this week. But it was super, super, super cool to go into the bookshop and see it. Like, it, it really hit. um, when I went in and saw it on the wall. Um, and so yeah, people have been so supportive. Dymocks in particular have been really, really supportive and lovely. So yeah, it, I mean, like, not to minimize, but it really did help that, um, when you went to the Dymocks 101 voting form, like, it was in the top row, so people could just select it. Oh. Like, you didn't have to, like, search for it. So yeah, um, that was also helpful. But, you know, people actually did have to pick it, so

Tina Strachan

That's right, yeah. They're not gonna vote for it if they did not think so. Yeah.

Madeleine Cleary

Exactly. So it's cool. And, um, for those who, yeah, don't know, the Dymocks Top 101, um, it's like the voted by book lovers, and it means that it'll be in the front of stores for the next year, which is really good for the longevity of books. Mm. Because as you both know, books t- don't tend to have much longevity these days- Mm with all the books coming out. So yeah, I'm really, really thrilled. It's very exciting. It is very

Natasha Rai

exciting. Yeah. Congratulations.

Madeleine Cleary

Thank you. But do you know it's funny, 'cause I went out yesterday with my parents, and, um, they n- they don't go over the top, Mum and Dad, with celebrations and stuff with me. Like, you know, I t- say and they're like, "Oh, that's good." Um, and Dad said, "Oh, I..." M- both Mum and Dad said, "Oh, wish you'd been number 33, though, 'cause that's Dad's lucky number." Oh,

Tina Strachan

sorry

Madeleine Cleary

about that. Dad. So, and damn it, that's what they said. I was like, "Okay." I'm sure Mum's listening to this now.

Natasha Rai

I'm

Tina Strachan

terrified. Yeah. Anyway. That's very exciting. Thanks.

Natasha Rai

It is very exciting. Um, well, thank you both for a great catch-up. Um, I hope you have a good month ahead. Uh, good luck with your submission, or hope it goes well, Mads. Thank you. Will it be in by the time we talk again? Oh, yes. Yeah. It better be. It'll

Madeleine Cleary

be gone. And good luck to you, too, next week. Thank

Natasha Rai

you. Yes, thank you. All right, see you both soon. Bye.

Madeleine Cleary

Bye.

Speaker 5

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