The Book Deal

Emily Maguire on non-fiction vs fiction writing, overcoming discouragement and practicalities of sustaining a writing life

• Tina Strachan

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Natasha Rai interviews author Emily Maguire about her Queensland Literary Award–winning, Prime Minister’s Literary Award–shortlisted novel Rapture, inspired by a 1,000-year-old legend of a woman disguising herself as a man, rising through monastic ranks, and becoming pope. Maguire contrasts nonfiction research—structured around a topic and intended conclusions—with fiction research driven by deep point of view and character questions, and describes collecting sparks like art and journaled observations. She recounts early discouragement from a teacher, her first publication journey via mailed submissions and an ASA mentorship, and how international rights sales launched her career despite poor local reviews. Maguire discusses navigating tough edits, learning that “a novel is made in the rewriting,” choosing trusted readers, teaching writing without gatekeeping craft jargon, and practical realities of sustaining an Australian writing life amid industry pressures, including AI, while emphasizing writing regularly and revising deeply.

00:00 Podcast Intro
00:56 Meet Emily Maguire
02:27 Elevator Pitch Rapture
03:28 Research Fiction vs Nonfiction
06:03 Finding Story Sparks
08:36 A Life of Reading
09:43 Becoming a Writer
12:32 First Publication Journey
16:55 Persistence and Doubt
20:55 Handling Editorial Feedback
25:55 Learning Deep Revision
30:55 When to Share Drafts
31:52 Trusted Reader Process
33:16 When a Draft Fails
34:49 Finding Trusted Readers
35:53 Feedback That Helps
40:59 Teaching Through Dialogue
43:55 Craft Terms Dont Matter
47:28 Market Identity Anxiety
51:08 Sustaining Writing Career
56:14 Write Then Revise
58:14 Podcast Wrap Up

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This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books. We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal. So no matter what stage of writing your at. We've got you covered. I'm Tina Strachan. I'm Madeleine Cleary. And I'm Natasha Rai. And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors one deal at a time. The Book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.

Natasha Rai

Emily Maguire is the author of seven novels and three non-fiction books. Her novel, An Isolated Incident, was shortlisted for the Stella Prize and the Miles Franklin Literary Award, and her 2022 book, Love Objects, was shortlisted for the ABIA Literary Fiction Book of the Year. She was the 2018/2019 writer in residence at the Charles Perkins Centre at the University of Sydney and the 2023 H.C. Coombs Creative Arts Fellow at the Australian National University. Emily has an MA in literature and works as a mentor to young and emerging writers. Her latest book is the Queensland Literary Award-winning and Prime Minister's Literary Award shortlisted, Rupture Emily, hello

Emily Maguire

Hi

Natasha Rai

How are you?

Emily Maguire

I'm good, thanks. How are you, Tash?

Natasha Rai

Good. I think we're both in the rewriting trenches at the moment.

Emily Maguire

Yes, yes, um, trenches is, is the word for it. Okay, I'm just like for this conversation literally feel like I'm popping my head out over

Natasha Rai

Yeah. Um,

Emily Maguire

yeah.

Natasha Rai

I hear you 'cause I, I'm the same. This morning I was reading through writing, and then I was like, "Oh, yes, interview." And then, yeah. How's it... How is it going?

Emily Maguire

Look, it's going... It's going pretty well right now, but I think, as you know, it, um, it, it's a day-to-day thing of, of how, how that is. Yeah, yeah.

Natasha Rai

Yeah. I hear. So, um, this is your first time on the podcast, and as you might know, we ask all our guests to give us the elevator pitch for their latest book. Mm-hmm. And yours is Rapture. So Emily Maguire, can I please have your elevator pitch?

Emily Maguire

Sure. Rapture is inspired by a 1,000-year-old story about a clever young woman who disguises herself as a man to run away to a monastery with her lover, a Benedictine monk. Once there, she proves herself to be, um, basically smarter than all the other monks and rises her way up through the ranks, eventually traveling across the world, becoming a great scholar and teacher, and then, still in careful disguise, rising up to the highest position in Rome, uh, the pope.

Natasha Rai

Wow, that's such a good pitch. Of all the pitches I've heard, you'd think I'd get better at doing my own, but not yet. Um, so you, you had to do a lot of research for Rapture, and I know that you've done a lot of research for the, for the novel that you're currently working on, and you've also written three nonfiction books. And I'm curious about your research, like how it differs and how you use it when you're writing fiction versus nonfiction.

Emily Maguire

Mm. Um, that's a huge question. Um, partly I guess the, I guess the way to start thinking about that for me is that with my nonfiction books, they have all come, um, from a position of like here is this topic that I want to really explore and maybe even come to answers at the end of. So I've had a really careful research structure, like these are the things I need to know about to write this, and it sort of turned out to be the book structure. And obviously things change along the way as you learn things, but I've really gone into it with this idea of this is the thing that I'm writing, these are the things I need to know. Whereas with the novels, um, so particularly Rapture and the one I'm working on now, yes, I started with a vague idea of what I needed to know, but I really write fiction from deep point of view and deep identification with character. So, um, to be specific, so with Rapture, yes, it's based on this 1,000-year-old legend. I knew I needed to, um, learn a lot about the period that it was set in. I knew I needed to learn about the sort of political, religious hierarchies and structures. But really what I needed to do was start getting in touch with who my point of view character was gonna be, this girl called Agnes, girl, later woman called Agnes, and start, just as I would with any other work of fiction, writing from- writing internally from her point of view, and then the research questions came from that. Like, how do I understand what it would be like to be a girl in ninth century, um, Northern Germany? Um, how do I know how she thinks? Which meant then I'm realizing, oh, I need to try and read the things she would be reading. I need to expose myself to as much as possible the world that was around her. Um, and so yeah, the, the research was sort of driven by character and by the need to understand this character, rather than being an external structure of, of where I wanted to end up, which is, is more how I'd write- Mm nonfiction.

Natasha Rai

And so given that's the way you approach it, like, I, I've heard you talk about Rupture before, and I know that it, it came out of a, a paint- a work of art, right, that you saw a while ago?

Emily Maguire

Um, it, it came from a lot of different things. It came... I guess initially it came from a paragraph I read in a really old book on, um, medieval Christianity, and that's when I learned that this legend existed that there had once been a female pope. So that was really the first thing. But then I do, um, a sort of, uh, um, deliberate noticing is a big part of my writing practice, and so I kind of collect and journal, and I'm always collecting works of art and things that strike me. And, and there have been several works of art, and I think the one you might be talking about is a Kiki Smith sculpture- Mm um, that struck me as, as really important to this novel and this character- Yeah without really knowing why yet. And so I, I sort of surround myself with those images where I can and write towards them as well.

Natasha Rai

So what, what's different for you then in terms of the spark for some- writing nonfiction?

Emily Maguire

Yeah. It's a, it's a question I'm not quite sure of the answer to- Mm except the way I think of in my mind is more like- With nonfiction, I think I know what I wanna say. Like, I write... I, I mean, I- I've... It's only been the three books, and the last one was quite a while ago. But, um, in nonfiction, it, it's like those are all sort of books around or to do with feminism and the lives of women, and it's really something like, "Oh, here's a thing I'm noticing, and I really wanna understand it more and tell other people about it maybe." Um, and so I'm s- I'm sort of driven by this, you know... Didactic is a word that, it can sound very negative, but I think when it's intentional with writing, it's almost like, "Hey, listen to this. Look what I've noticed."

Natasha Rai

Mm.

Emily Maguire

Um, and, and let me explain what I think is going on here. Whereas fiction for me is just this much more I don't, I don't know. I'm not trying to have a message. I'm not trying to say something. It's, uh... So even just saying all this out loud now, I guess if I really sort of, um, simplify it all, um, it's like nonfiction is when I know what I wanna say, and fiction is when I don't, but I know there's- Mm something there, and I've gotta- Yeah I've gotta write into it.

Natasha Rai

Yeah, and what struck me when you were describing it then as well was the similarities actually, like that noticing. 'Cause you're like, "Hey, look what I've noticed, and I wanna share it with other people." So that's pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah. Um, speaking of noticing, you're an amazing reader, and we've had many, many, many talks about the books we're reading. Have you always been a reader?

Emily Maguire

Yes, and I, I will just say that you are an amazing reader, and you're my favorite reader to talk about books with, as you know. Um, yes, I've always been a reader. I, I... My, my family are all readers, and I grew up in a very book nerdy household as in, like, weekly family trips to the local suburban library where we'd all get out pretty much maximum allowed number of books. Um, and then it was, like, pretty soon, I mean, very early running out of books for that week, and my siblings and I would just write our own. And I feel now for our parents 'cause the number of terrible little plays we put on that we'd written, um, or books that they had to sit there and read that we had written when we ran out. So yeah, huge reader always and, and, and from a really early age attached this idea of, of making stories as well as- Mm-hmm reading them. Yeah.

Natasha Rai

And at what point, maybe there wasn't a point, how was it to go from being a reader and then also seriously contemplating that you could be a writer too?

Emily Maguire

Um, that was a, an on and off kind of journey because, you know, yeah, as a kid, I just assumed that I was a writer. I mean, I just was. I just always wrote from, from reading. And then I've, I've told this story before, but when I was in year nine, I said out loud to my, you know, an English teacher in front of the class that I was gonna be a writer, um, and he cut me down very publicly and harshly. Ugh. Um, so I think when I've told the story on, on ABC Radio, I said that he said nonsense, but actually he said bullshit. Um- Oh 'cause it was that kind of school. And I know now where he was coming from, and it was from the place that, like, all the boys in my class were, like, gonna play first grade rugby league. You know, everyone was gonna be a rock star or a footy star or whatever. So it was, like, from that. Um, but it, it... I really admired him, and actually he was a great English teacher in a lot of ways. Like, he would bring books in for me because I was such a great reader. So it was a, you know, it was a more complicated thing than the initial, um, than the initial story sounds like. But I did-- it did cut me to the quick because I suddenly saw myself through his eyes or through other people's eyes, and I thought, "Yeah, what do I mean I'm gonna be a writer?" Like, I don't know any writers. When I really think about it, all the writers I read are dead or from, like, the other side of the world.

Natasha Rai

Mm.

Emily Maguire

And, and I did, like, it felt like I'd been going around saying, "I'm gonna be a pirate," or, "I'm gonna be a mermaid." Like, it was just ridiculous, and so I stopped writing. I mean, apart from things I had to write, I just stopped. It just seemed... I, I felt so, um- Or shame, I guess.

Natasha Rai

Mm-hmm.

Emily Maguire

And then when I was in my early 20s, I'd, I'd dropped out of high school, not directly because of that, but I'm sure it didn't help 'cause English was my favorite subject. Um, and I was working in a call center job, which was just a, a special kind of hell. I'm sure many of your listeners will have experienced that. And I just started writing again. It just sort of poured out of me at night. I was, uh, not sleeping. And yeah, I don't know, it really felt like all the writing I hadn't done, um, for the last six years or whatever was just, was just there, and just coming out, and that's when I really went, "Well, like, who cares?" Mm-hmm. "If it gets published, if it doesn't, if it can be a job or not, like, like, this feels right that I'm doing this." And, and that's when I really consciously started to think seriously about, well, okay, what could that mean to be a writer? It doesn't... It, it probably doesn't mean it's gonna be my career, but, but I am a writer, and I am doing this, so let's, let's go.

Natasha Rai

Amazing. And what are you... Like, it's, you know, y- you've written 10 books, and you're working on your 11th at the moment. Mm-hmm. What do you remember about, like, publication of that first novel?

Emily Maguire

Um, I remember being amazed because... So these, these are the olden days, right? Like, I sound silly, but this is, this is like... So that first novel was published in 2004, so really we're going back nearly a quarter century. Um- Oh,

Natasha Rai

yeah

Emily Maguire

so, I mean, I, I wrote it on a computer, but other than that it was a very analog process. Like, I had to print out the manuscript, and I sent it to publishers, the physical manuscript in big post bags according to publisher details that I found in a physical book at the library- Mm called The Writer's Marketplace.

Natasha Rai

Mm-hmm.

Emily Maguire

And all the advice I read, which was also in books, not on the internet, and podcasts didn't exist, was this is almost impossible. If you don't know someone already, and you don't have an agent, um, really you've got absolutely no chance. So I went into it- Right in that spirit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, right? Like, okay. Um, I did get through the Australian Society of Authors, I, um, won, I guess, a men- a, a mentorship-

Natasha Rai

Mm-hmm

Emily Maguire

um, with the wonderful, now late sadly, um, Liam Davidson. And that was literally the first time anyone else had read- Oh, wow like, I guess that process of entering that- Mm. Mm and then having Liam Davidson read my manuscript and give feedback. So that, that was the first time of feeling real in the sense that it wasn't just in my own head. Um, and then that, I guess, is what gave me the, um, the, the courage or the delusion to, to actually spend all that

Natasha Rai

money-

Emily Maguire

Well, yeah, I think you need both, right? Well, right. And- Yeah and, and especially when you've gotta spend all this money, which I didn't really have, to print out manuscripts- Yeah and pay postage- Mm and go to the post office like... So I did all that and, and but genuinely didn't expect anything to really come of it, and I was right because all the rejections came in, came in, came in. And then after I don't know how long of doing this, it took ages 'cause you had to wait to hear back, and it was by post, um, yeah, I, I got picked up by a tiny Australian publisher, Brandalose Schlesinger, um, who still exist. They're a, a literally a two-person operation out of the Blue Mountains but, um, publishing beautiful, beautiful books. A lot of, um, a lot of poetry, a lot of works in translation, which mine was neither. Um, but they picked it up, and, and it just felt miraculous, and they, you know, they made it into a book, and there it was. And it just felt like, okay, I've done it now. I've done the thing.

Natasha Rai

What was it, and what was that book?

Emily Maguire

That book was called Taming the Beast. Mm. And as it happened, it was with this tiny publisher here who did a beautiful job. Um, and the really significant thing apart from having a published book, um, was that they then sold the international rights of that first novel. So even though it didn't really make any kind of impact here, in fact it was... The couple of reviews it got were, were terrible, and I can still recite them from memory.

Natasha Rai

Oh.

Emily Maguire

Um, which as you know, Tash, I don't go looking for reviews now or read them, and that was a hard, hard earned lesson-

Natasha Rai

Yes.

Emily Maguire

Mm-hmm from that first one. Um, but despite that, um, it was published, uh, in the UK. It got translated into, I think, seven or eight languages, and then it also had a US publication. Um, and I, and I did sort of a, a little tour, uh, in the UK and then another one in the US, and that sort of was the real launching pad for me- Mm-hmm to have a career. I think that first book here was exciting and felt wonderful, and felt like in and of myself I had done something that was really- Yeah important to me. But in terms of then considering, you know, could this be a thing I keep doing, um, it was that, that it had those international sales and that it, it, it got some kind of, um, traction-

Natasha Rai

Yeah

Emily Maguire

elsewhere, even though it didn't here, that, that made me think, "Yeah, okay. This, this- there's something here that I can keep doing, not just for myself."

Natasha Rai

And you know what? Vindication from that moment that teacher said bullshit to, like, "Yep, here's my international deals," so yeah.

Emily Maguire

Yeah. Yeah.

Natasha Rai

So along the way, were there moments or times where things felt bleak, or you faltered and you weren't sure about the career stuff?

Emily Maguire

Oh, yeah, constantly. Career- Okay career-wise and, you know, writing itself-wise, craft-wise because, you know, they're, they are interrelated, but they are two different things, I think, um, in terms of despair.

Natasha Rai

Mm-hmm.

Emily Maguire

Like, there are times when I felt really good in the writing, um, and that hasn't connected with, you know, a publisher or marketer or an audience or whatever, and that's, that's one kind of feeling despair.

Natasha Rai

Mm-hmm.

Emily Maguire

Um, but actually for me, the, the worst is that the writing's not happening, and I don't feel that that's going well because that feels like such... It, it... That's my way of being in the world-

Natasha Rai

Mm

Emily Maguire

is writing. Mm. And so even though it sucks if, um, a book doesn't do well or a publisher doesn't want it or whatever, it, it does feel worse to me the times when I've written something and feel like this, this just is not it, and I, I don't know how to make it better. And that... you know, that feeling that the writing- Mm is, is not working for me is a, is a worse feeling.

Natasha Rai

Mm.

Emily Maguire

Um, but yeah, like, like, in terms of the world's response to my writing, um, I think the thing is about being 20-something years in and, and things going pretty well, the last book especially, is that it's easy to, um, for, for people outside of that to think it's, oh, well, it's a dream run, like, it's all so great. And actually 10 books over 20-something years, um, and most of them didn't really make an impact beyond a very, very small circle of readers. And so for most of that time, um, I've been, I've been just working with this feeling of as long as I still feel driven to do this- Mm and especially, like, even if, you know, I can keep getting published even in a, you know, fairly small way, making a fairly small audience an impact, that's, that's great. Like- Mm that's better than, than working full time in a call center and wishing that I was writing.

Natasha Rai

Yes.

Emily Maguire

Even if I have to do a bit of that other work as well, which I always have, not, not call center work, but not made a living from it, um, for most of my career. It's still how I wanna be living.

Natasha Rai

Mm.

Emily Maguire

And so I think, I think that's what's enabled me to keep going, is to never have that, um, expectation that this is gonna be a full-time career. I am gonna be wildly successful. That, that would be lovely, but, um- To, yeah, not have that expectation and to not, not overly attach the, the business of publishing or being an author with the feeling that I get from writing.

Natasha Rai

Mm. So I wanna ask you a bit more about what you've just said, but I just wanted to also say that, um, last year I met up with Siyang Liu, the, um, the Miles Franklin winner from, from 2025, and he was... and he said to me that you should be the person that is held up in every, um, writer's classroom across Australia as, uh, as, uh, an example of beautiful craft, and how to persist and persevere and have this... build a career, and, and how- Me? And how it should- I should

Emily Maguire

be that person?

Natasha Rai

Yeah, he actually said that, yeah. And he was saying that- Aw for him, that you've always been this very generous industry citizen, but a- alongside that, just r- literally quietly working away and just, you know, getting books out there and building this career. And he goes, "And that's what," in his view, "that's what a writer looks like in Australia." Like, that is what it takes. So yeah.

Emily Maguire

Oh.

Natasha Rai

I'm sure he doesn't mind me telling you

Emily Maguire

that. It's actually made me quite, quite emotional because that's, yeah, that's... it, it's... that's nice. That, that makes me happy to, to be seen that way, yeah.

Natasha Rai

Mm. Um, so then back to what you said about the times where you've been really happy or connected with something you've written, but maybe a publisher or an agent hasn't been that enthusiastic, like, what do you do with that? How do you navigate that?

Emily Maguire

Yeah, it is, it is difficult. Um, I remember, I guess the really striking example of when I kind of really went through it and had to learn this, um, was with my third novel, Smoke in the Room. Um, and that I felt really good about. Um, and when I sent it to my publisher, so, um, the response was... Like, they were gonna publish it. They'd, they'd, um, they'd already... You know, we had a contract. But the editorial response to it, I remember ringing a friend, a writer friend, and saying like, "They just actually really hate this book, and seem to want it to be a completely different book than what I'd written." And it was really spinning me out, 'cause I was like, "They knew what this is when they bought it, and this is the book I've written, and yet from reading the editorial, it feels like every single thing about it is terrible and they want it to be different." And I had to... You know, it was good to have a friend to talk to about it, but also I had to sort of tease apart all the things that were going on with me then. And what I now know is that was the first time I'd been really, deeply, properly edited, and that now I love. I love, love, love, love. I want, I want that so much, to be deeply read and edited. Um, and I hadn't experienced that before. I'd had fairly light edits on the other novels. Um, and so that in itself was a confronting thing, to have someone questioning all these aspects of this novel so deeply, and thinking about things that I just hadn't even thought about. Um, and the other part of it was realizing that- I could still, I could still, um, determine what this book was. That, yes, it's great to work with an editor, it's great to be well edited and to sort of even be in conversation deeply with someone who's thoughtful about your book and deeply engaged. Um, but also when it comes down to it, it's my book-

Natasha Rai

Mm

Emily Maguire

and it is my name on the cover. And what I learnt to do with that first sort of deep, very confronting edit was begin to tease apart which of these things am I having a reaction to because they're right, and I was kind of just, uh, taking the piss a bit and getting away with thinking I was getting away with something that I wasn't and just not working hard enough.

Natasha Rai

Mm.

Emily Maguire

Which of these things am I having a reaction to because I don't know? 'Cause there was craft stuff there, like there was stuff to do with, you know, point of view that I was like, "Aren't I doing that? Aren't I in a third limited point of view?" And I realized, oh, I don't, I don't really understand this enough on a craft level. I need to do more work in that way. And then what are the things I'm having a strong reaction to because actually, no, that does fundamentally change what this book is- Mm and it's not that. Mm. And even if people don't love it, this is, this is the book, and I, I can't make it a different book. So I guess that that's a really long way of saying that for me it was a It was and has continued to be about trying to separate out- What is the response that is just, "This is not a book for us," or- Mm from a reader's point of view, this is not a book for them. Okay. And this is where I have failed to make the book what I want it to be. Yeah. Because they're, they're not the same thing. Mm. 'Cause you can't write a book that pleases everybody. You can't, nobody can- has ever done it, and can ever, and I think should ever write a book that is like everyone is gonna say, "This is exactly how this should've been done." Yeah. "Every aspect of this has been perfect decision by the writer here. This is the perfect book that no one will have any complaints about or would change a word of." That's not possible, so you need to be able to figure out what are the responses from editors or, you know, beta readers or whatever that are about making this book that I wanna make the best version of itself it can be, rather than making it a different book.

Natasha Rai

Also, that sounds kind of boring. Like, imagine if you- someone wrote the perfect book that everyone just loved universally. Meh.

Emily Maguire

I mean, it's not, it's not as... Exactly, so now you already don't love it 'cause it's meh. So- It's not

Natasha Rai

doing

Emily Maguire

anything

Natasha Rai

ex- exactly. So I know I'm trying to crawl into your brain right now, which may not be possible, but that feeling or that questions that you brought to that work about, okay, you know, what is this asking me in terms of craft? What is this asking me in terms of what the book is doing? How did you... Is that d- been developed over years of experience? Like, how did you do it? How do you... H- is one inherently born with it, or can you learn it?

Emily Maguire

No, no, I definitely wasn't born with it. I had to learn it, and I, and I, I don't think I nailed it on that one book. I just know that that was really the book where I, where I started to understand that this was what the, the job was once the book got to that stage. Smoke in the Room, I mean, I think I probably said this to you before. I've, I've definitely said this in, in classes that I've taught, but that was my third novel. If it had been my first, I don't know that I would've kept going. It was such a hard and, and ugh. Yeah, yeah. Everything about it felt so hard, and, and so of course that is what becomes the huge learning experience when you do push through those things and keep going. But if that had been the experience with my first novel, I, I don't know if I would've. And it was partly that I had, I had done it twice before, as in written a novel um, and finished it that, that made me I guess feel like, "Okay, I, I can do this." But it was really hard. I think, um, I think in the end it went through sort of maybe four or five full structural edits. Um, and a couple of different editors. Like it was, it was rough going. Mm-hmm. And I'm really happy with how it came out. Yeah, yeah. You know, I mean, every book sort of, especially years on, you think, "Oh, now I'd change that, I'd change that." But, but I feel like the process worked. I feel like it got the outcome I, you know- Mm-hmm it, that kind of process should. But it, it was really tough. Um, one of the things that helped was that, that the editor who ended up working on it most closely with me, Emma Rafferty, uh, who was in it, um, then and now I guess actually is at Pan Macmillan. She, she is just one of these dream, dream editors who had a way of sort of... I guess she taught me how to be well edited, is how I'd put it.

Natasha Rai

Oh, wow. Okay.

Emily Maguire

Um, I can remember 'cause I, I had a trip away around the time when we were really deep in it, 'cause it went on for so long, and she was emailing me sort of, um, I guess scans of pages in which she'd written notes on and really breaking things down. Like it was just such a personal, intimate process. And she wasn't just saying, "Oh, well, this bit isn't working," or, "You need to do this," or, "You need to do that," or telling me things. It, it really started to feel like a conversation where she was, um, getting, getting into like w- "Here's how I'm reading this. Is that-" Mm "what you're meaning it to be?" And then we could get a conversation which really got to what I'm trying to do, rather than her impression of what it should be. And that sounds like a basic thing, but it, it, it was quite- No, that's so important revelatory to me. Yeah, yeah. Like, that is the thing. That is the thing of a good writing partner or a good editor. And so I think we, we battled through it with that novel, and then that sort of became such a light for me to even now self-edit, or when I'm doing revision myself before it even gets to someone else, that when I'm reading over a bit and I'll be like,

Natasha Rai

Eh,"

Emily Maguire

to instead of just going, "I'm just gonna change this," or, "I'm just gonna keep fiddling around the edges until maybe it will be better," is to step back, and I'll often sort of journal or write a little, like, nerdy letter to myself. Like, what, what is this trying to be? Like, what are you trying to do here? And, and work at it from that angle. And I guess, again, I'm, I'm giving really long, sprawling answers. But I think- No, I like

Natasha Rai

long, sprawling answers.

Emily Maguire

Lucky. Um, I think the essential thing for me in all of this is just the idea that I really had to learn with that third book, with Smoke in the Room, that a novel is, for me, is made in the rewriting. Mm-hmm. That, that the first draft, or even it could be, you know, several drafts in, but it's, it's not itself until it is. Which i- which is to say that no version of it, until it's out there on the shelf, I guess, is the novel. It's always a work in progress until it's not. And so to feel like, "Well, we'll stuff it, this is just how it is," um- That's, that's not an option. But this is how it is comes when you feel like, yeah, this is how it is. This is the book. And then every step along the way, you can still be having conversations and even if it's just with yourself or with your notebook, and making it more what you want it to be.

Natasha Rai

My mind is blowing up. No, I really like that. I like that so much because it's so true, and I didn't even know how to put it into those words because they just feel so true, and they're so resonant. Like, yes, that's exactly right. All the searching and fiddling or not... The rewriting that we do, it's to find the book.

Emily Maguire

Yeah.

Natasha Rai

Yeah.

Emily Maguire

Yeah. And it's, um... Yeah, understanding that- I

Natasha Rai

think

Emily Maguire

I have to

Natasha Rai

go away and just be on my own for a bit and just think about that.

Emily Maguire

Go on. I'll wait. Yeah.

Natasha Rai

Wow, okay. That's amazing. Sorry, I- I'm just staring off into the distance. I need to just calm myself. Um, okay. So on the other side of that then, is it a similar process when you're writing something that you're not... You don't like, or it, it hasn't got to where you want, want it to be, or that you're happy with, and people around you are like, "Yeah, this is great," or, "This is fine"?

Emily Maguire

That hasn't happened that often because I don't really show my work

early.

Emily Maguire

Mm-hmm. I don't tend to show my writing, um, until I a- am already feeling, not necessarily this is great, but this is as far as I can go on my own now, um, and I need to see it through someone else's eyes. So usually by then, um, I know that it's not working, but I don't know why That's why I need someone else's eyes on it

Natasha Rai

Ah, yeah. Okay.

Emily Maguire

So I guess if I did show it to one of my very few trusted readers, of which you are one- for the last few books, and the response had been, "This is perfect. Let's go," I would... I don't know, I would have a bit of a crisis, I think. Mm. A bit of an existential crisis, 'cause I only have really three readers that I really, really trust at that stage, at that early stage. Mm.

Natasha Rai

Mm.

Emily Maguire

Um, and so far none of you have been off in terms of telling me something's working when it's not- Mm-hmm um, or vice versa, which sounds... I know that sounds like I'm getting a bunch of yes women around me who are just gonna agree with what I already think, but it's actually not that at all, because it's not... It's about the spec- it's about the specifics. Mm-hmm. So I'm like, "Okay, here's, here's the manuscript, Tash, and it's, it's as far as I can go without seeing other eyes on it. I know it's not there yet, but here it is."

Natasha Rai

Mm.

Emily Maguire

And then it's you actually agreeing, though very kindly, "Okay, no, it's not there yet. Here's the specific things that tripped me up." Mm. And that then s- can start that whole process of me like, "Oh," going back to those bits. "Yes. Yes, I see exactly what was going on there," and, and working on those specific problems. So that, that has been my process. So sorry, I, I do go on, don't I? Um- No,

Natasha Rai

I like it. This is, this is great.

Emily Maguire

I, I think to go back to your original question, the, the experience that I've had of writing something and just really knowing this is not good-

Natasha Rai

Mm

Emily Maguire

um, was I did write a novel... So, so I've written a whole novel or a whole novel draft that no one has read. Um, and it was actually after An Isolated Incident, which was my fifth novel, so it was quite far in. Mm. And I wrote this whole manuscript, and I worked on it as hard as I could. I did everything I normally do, and it just is no good. Mm. Mm. And it's just no good in my own estimation, and not even to a point where I think advice from someone else would be helpful. And that's, that's a real difference for me. That I can work on something and know, okay, it's not there yet, but it's essentially a sound thing that I'm doing here, and I know it needs some work. And this is, you know, this is a lump of clay. This isn't even a book yet. And it's a horrible feeling. It felt like I'd wasted years, whatever. But I don't know any other way to do it- Mm because again, to sort of go back to my thing that I repeat all the time, like, like what we were just saying, you've gotta kind of write the novel to work out what the novel is.

Natasha Rai

Yes. Yeah,

Emily Maguire

exactly. And if at some point it's like, "Oh, what if this isn't a novel? What if this isn't anything?" This is 100,000 words that actually isn't a novel. Um, then maybe I could push that out and get... someone might publish it, and just get it out there, but I don't want to do that.

Natasha Rai

No.

Emily Maguire

Because that feels yuck to have something out there. That

Natasha Rai

doesn't s- yeah, that doesn't sit well with you. Yeah.

Emily Maguire

Yeah.

Natasha Rai

So you're, um, a teacher and a mentor, so when you are working with someone who's either an emerging writer or aspiring writer... I don't actually like the word aspiring writer, 'cause if you write, you write, right?

Emily Maguire

We're all aspiring to.

Natasha Rai

Yeah, exactly. Um, h- what advice do you give them, like, in terms of how they could maybe find trusted readers?

Emily Maguire

Mm. Yeah, it's... One, one of the things I say is, is to really take that seriously- Mm the idea of trusted readers. I, I have seen a lot of new or newish writers get badly burnt by showing their work too early is one thing, but also to the wrong person. And the wrong person could mean someone who, um, is going to be highly critical and not be good at actually wording that advice in a helpful way.

Natasha Rai

Mm-hmm.

Emily Maguire

So it might be advice that is needed for the manuscript, like it might be really smart from a craft perspective, but I think there are ways to prevent... What, what my goal always is, and because this is what, I guess, Emma Rafferty way back when kind of did for me and modeled for me, and even before that actually, Liam Davidson in that first mentorship, is somehow able to give advice that when you drill down to it is quite hard, in that, like, this is tough advice. They're really going there. They're not letting you get away with anything. But delivered in a way that made me feel excited-

Natasha Rai

Mm

Emily Maguire

about getting back to work, 'cause it was like, "Oh, yes, I, I can see how this is gonna be so good." And that feeling of collaboration, almost of excitement, um, as opposed to giving that same advice on a craft level that feels like- Um, I've written something really rubbish, and it would take so much work to make this good.

Natasha Rai

Yeah.

Emily Maguire

And it can be the same advice, but it's about the way of giving it. Yeah. So that to me is always really important. Um, and I, I try and when I even sort of talk to students about giving feedback to each other, I try and make this really clear. It's not about not saying the thing that needs to be said in terms of craft, because that actually... If someone has come to you with their work and wants feedback, I think it's actually really disrespectful to be like, "Oh, that's wonderful. Aren't you clever? No notes." Like, it's not respecting their intention, and it's not treating them like a writer. And that first time I had Layne Davison as a mentor who gave me notes, and they were tough notes, it was the first time I really felt outside of my own head like I was a writer, and I was being spoken to like a writer, and I was being treated like someone who wanted to do the work, who wanted to make it better, and that is really important. Mm. So it's... Yeah. It's not about being like, "Oh, this is great." Um, it's about also not being like- chuck this out, start again, you're rubbish. Because it's a, I mean, it's mean, but also it's just not true. And again, to go back to this thing, that it's not done till it's done. It's a work in progress until it's not.

Natasha Rai

Mm-hmm.

Emily Maguire

And so anything that you are coming to as a, as a reader, as a mentor, as a critic, as a, you know, criticism partner, as a beta reader, I think the intention always has to be, um, this, this isn't finished yet How, how do we help it become itself?

Natasha Rai

Mm-hmm.

Emily Maguire

And that's an exciting thing to, to do, to help make... We- we're making something great together here and contributing to this. So as, as the writer yourself trying to find those people, I think that conversation at some point is important. Mm-hmm. So whether you're in a writer's group and you're have a kind of ethos out front, like we're gonna be real with each other, but we're all going in with the goal of this, this can be done. Mm-hmm. Nothing is hopeless and terrible, like this, this can be done, and we're gonna find a way to do it. Um, the other thing I, I often say is family and friends are usually not gonna be the right person to be your early readers or your critical readers. Um, that's speaking very much from my own experience. I have... I mean, apart from you, who are my friend and my first reader, which I'll get to in a second why you are, but my family in particular, I'm lucky, incredibly supportive, but they are those readers who will be, "Oh, my God, this is wonderful. You're a genius. How are you real?" And that's-

Natasha Rai

Oh, loving it. Yeah

Emily Maguire

beautiful. Yes,

Natasha Rai

yes.

Emily Maguire

It doesn't help me make a manuscript better. Yeah. That's what you want once the book's out there, and you can't change anything, and other people might be doing reviews and stuff, that's when you need that person to say, "You're a genius. This is perfect." When it's still in development, that's not what I need. Yeah,

Natasha Rai

yeah.

Emily Maguire

So that's not family and friends. Others would also have that experience, but also the thing is, unless your close family and friends are themselves writers who have a similar approach to writing and manuscript development or really good readers, and that's the other thing. You don't necessarily need to find other writers to be your person to read. You, Tash, are a writer, of course, and a wonderful one, but what makes you someone who I, um, ask to read my manuscripts is that you're a brilliant reader, and you're not responding to it as a writer, like, "This is what I would do, this is what I would do," although of course that's, you know, your writer self is in there. But what I love is that you are able to read it as a book and talk about it with me as we talk about books in terms of what's working and what's not, and I know that you're widely read. I know that how you think about reading and books, um, and that's really important to me to have as a reader. And so that's what I... Yeah, that's advice there that I would say is to have those conversations up front about what kind of feedback is helpful and not, what kind of approach you're taking to this. But also, yeah, don't, don't overlook the readers in your life- Mm-hmm who aren't necessarily themselves writers.

Natasha Rai

Thank you. Um, so your- Like the other, uh, not the other side of your career, but part of your career is being a writing mentor and teacher. How did that... How did you get into that? Like, h- how did- Mm I don't know, how did you feel confident to start helping, supporting other writers?

Emily Maguire

Mm. Um, I didn't. Mm. Um, I was asked to teach... You know what the first, I think the first workshop I taught was part of a writing residency I did actually in Tasmania, and part of that was to, to do a one-day workshop. And I, I remember being really, I mean, massive, massive imposter syndrome. Like, who, who the hell am I? I think one, only the first book had been published then. Um, but it went, it went quite well, and I enjoyed it. Um, and when I-

Natasha Rai

Well, can I ask you? Yeah. Sorry, I like to get specific.

Emily Maguire

Yeah, go. Yeah, yeah,

Natasha Rai

yeah. What, what did you enjoy about it?

Emily Maguire

Yeah, so what I enjoyed about it was once the people in that class, in that group, it was a fairly small group, started talking back. Oh. Not in an arguing way, but once it was a conversation, and not just me standing up there doing a lecture on what I knew Um, and, and what started to happen in that room and then is what I've sort of, I guess, have built on over the years since, and very much so doing the year of the novel, which is exactly what it sounds like, a year-long course on novel at Writing New South Wales, which I did for 12 years.

Natasha Rai

Yeah.

Emily Maguire

So that's really when it built. But it did start there of that thing of like, oh, I don't have to be an expert who knows everything. That's not what people need from me. Because especially now, they can pick up any craft book and have someone telling them, "This is what, how you do this."

Natasha Rai

Mm.

Emily Maguire

They can, you know, go online, whether it's on forums like Reddit or, you know, Googling advice and now goddamn chat- AI GPT or whatever- Yes and be told- Mm this is how you should do this. This is what you should do. This is what you should do. This is what you should do. What I can bring, specifically me, is here are some things that I've noticed that work or don't- Mm and we can have a conversation about that and how that, um, seems to resonate or not with those people in that room, and we are all writers. If they're in my writing class or workshop or come to me for mentorship, we are... I'm, I'm not pretending we're both on the exact same level, 'cause there's a responsibility to being that student, um, to being that teacher or that mentor that, um, that I definitely take really seriously, but we are all writers.

Natasha Rai

Mm-hmm.

Emily Maguire

I'm not telling them something that I have this sacred knowledge, and I can choose to pass it down or not. I'm still in it. I'm still doing it. I'm still struggling with these questions. All I have that, that most of my students don't is experience, a lot of experience now. Mm. So if someone comes to me, like, if I'm doing a class on, um... I'm trying to think what was the one we were just doing the other night, um, on deep point of view in a class that I was teaching the other night, and- I can see that some people in the room are starting to be like, you know, once you start getting into third person, and whether it's subjective, limited, omniscient, is this free indirect discourse? Where does the author end and where does the narrator start? All of this stuff, you, you can start to see some people in the room start going, "Oh, holy hell, I can't write." Mm. "I don't know anything anymore." Yes. "I thought I

Natasha Rai

knew how to write this." I, I, I literally had that thought just then. I'm like, "Oh, shit, I don't know how to write. I don't know what

any

Emily Maguire

of that

Natasha Rai

means."

Emily Maguire

Exactly. And that's when I can pull back, like start saying, "Okay, how's everyone, like, going with what we're talking about here? And, and here's some of those things." So flies... I can say, "Okay, so I literally did not think about any of this until I was in the editorial for my third novel." So you don't need to know all this and know the terms for things to write a novel. Um, many, many don't. And if you're, if you're already a big reader, which is something I always encourage, of course, you actually do already know this. You just don't necessarily know what a literary critic would call it or what someone writing, you know, in academia- Mm would- Mm-hmm define this as.

Natasha Rai

Mm-hmm.

Emily Maguire

And it doesn't matter, because your readers don't care either, unless they are literary critics or academics writing something. So the only reason to talk about craft on this level is just so we can all in the room have shared terms to say, "Oh, what's this writer doing here?" When you're writing, to me the ideal is to just do it so that your reader never stops to think, "Is this free indirect discourse? What?" Uh, like, just in the world, right? Yes,

Natasha Rai

yes.

Emily Maguire

Exactly. And so if you are feeling, uh, as, as a student of writing or as a someone who is writing, are feeling confused about the labeling and all that, like, just, just let it go. Forget it. It actually doesn't matter unless it's helping you.

Natasha Rai

Mm-hmm.

Emily Maguire

And, and so that for me is, uh, again, I've gone on and on away from the question, but th- this is the idea that in, for me, in a writing classroom, in a mentorship thing, it's like I can bring stuff and say, "Well, okay, I have since learnt that what is happening here technically is this."

Natasha Rai

Mm-hmm.

Emily Maguire

But if that is not helpful to someone in their writing, don't worry about it. Like, find another way in to be, why is this piece of writing working so well and this one isn't? Yes, yes. Or what can I do with mine?

Natasha Rai

Mm-hmm.

Emily Maguire

Um, and that goes for, I don't know, like structure. Things people say you have to do a three-act structure, or you have to do this particular method, or you have to do this particular method. It's like, is that helping you? Is that helping you write what you think of as a better book? If so, brilliant. If not, let it go- Mm because there's a lot of books that have been written in this world, and are still being written now, and always have, and every single one of them has been done differently, and some of those people have studied craft and some haven't. And I don't think necessarily any reader cares if what they're reading is involving and great. So when I teach or when I'm working with someone on their novel, the thing is always is what we're talking about here and doing here, is this helping this writer-

Natasha Rai

Mm

Emily Maguire

make the best book that they can in their own view, or is it just showing off that I have I'm a high school dropout who has since learnt lots of fancy literary terms, and I can stand up on high and say them.

Natasha Rai

Yeah.

Emily Maguire

Because that, that's not it. Yeah. That, that's not, that's not the job. Yeah, yeah. That's not what we're doing there.

Natasha Rai

So I'm so curious, um, over the years teaching and taking on individual students as well as class and groups, um, what have you noticed in terms of trends or how people are writing or the quality of work that's, that you're seeing? Uh, because, you know, the, the publishing industry is always apparently on its knees about to collapse at any moment. Um, and there, there seems to be a shift for writers who are submitting as well from, you know, yes, the work's important, but you also have to have X, Y, Z. Yeah, blah, blah, blah. I'm just wondering if any of that is reflected in the work that you see or, I don't know, just, I'm just Yeah. What, what are you noticing over, over time?

Emily Maguire

Honestly, over time, I'm not seeing a difference in the work in that way.

Natasha Rai

Wow.

Emily Maguire

Um, what I mean by that is that the, the spectrum of well-developed person really already knows what they're doing and maybe just needs a bit of guidance from absolute beginner, has never really thought about how they put words together. I always have students across that whole spectrum, and I still do, and that still exists, and I love that, um, actually. But what has shifted is, yes, this idea of identity as a writer on the market or in the market. Mm-hmm. I think that a lot more people now, um, are really aware of, yeah, uh, do I need a platform? Do I need a social media presence? How am I pitching myself in terms of, you know, um, how I'll be marketed? That, that it has become a lot more common for writers to already have an idea of all that stuff before they've actually written much at all. And that's a I get it. I really, I really do get it because so much writing advice, particularly, you know, online is about that. Mm-hmm. Do you have your pitch? Where do you fit? What are your comp titles? And that's all important, I know it is, like, if you wanna be, you know, published and in the industry and, and have any kind of career, let alone a long one. But you've gotta, you've gotta write the book first. You've gotta have the book, and possibly more than one, and definitely many drafts of it. And so I think it's not about the quality of writing I'm seeing, it's about how early in the process a lot of writers are thinking about stuff that... I mean, look, I'm not a publisher. I'm not an agent. I'm not in the industry in that way, and so, you know, my advice is what it is as a writer. Mm-hmm. Sure. Is that most, most writers would, like early career writers, um, or emerging writers, would really be better off spending a lot more time on the manuscripts themselves before they're worrying about that stuff or thinking about that stuff. Um, yes, there comes a point when you need to, but I think, I think that point is later than many writers, um, think it is.

Natasha Rai

Yeah.

Emily Maguire

Yeah.

Natasha Rai

Yeah. I remember you saying that, 'cause I did a year of the novel with you in 2017. Um, so I remember you saying that, like, "Just focus on the manuscript, on the work for now," and all of that. And I, 'cause I... And that was so helpful, 'cause I remember at the time feeling a bit, um... What's the right word? Crazed? No, not crazed. Um, just quite worried, like, um, I don't know what my identity is. I don't know- Mm how my pitch will go. I, yeah, so that was really helpful. Mm. Um, so I've got a couple more questions. Um, what have you figured out in terms of how to keep going career-wise, craft-wise, as an Austra- Australian author living in Australia?

Emily Maguire

Again, the two are two quite separate things.

Natasha Rai

Yes, I know. I've coupled them together. Craft...

Emily Maguire

Well, I mean, we have to eventually. Yeah. That's the thing, right? Yeah, yeah. Like, we, we do have to. But, but craft-wise for me, it's definitely to just stay curious and excited and interested. Mm. To... Like, I don't consciously think, like, I need to do something completely different with the next book or anything like that. But it is like I need to be really interested and engaged in what I'm doing, and to feel like I am learning all the time and, and pushing myself. So for me, that's it. That's the only thing to longevity, to keep being really interested and not feeling like I'm just phoning it in. Um, career-wise, look- Since I've first been published all those years ago, people have been saying, "The novel is dead. Fiction is dead. The industry is dead." And sometimes it's been more dead than others. Like, it really does come and go. Yeah. And, and yeah, look, I think it does feel like now we are in a time of... Th- this does feel different this time, mostly because of AI stuff, um, and also more broadly the, the sense of, um, devaluing of art and literature and things like that. So, yeah, I, I... career-wise I can feel quite dark about the, that stuff. On the other hand, there are lots of readers out there still, and whenever I go to, like, a book festival or a readers event... And, and yes, I guess they're just little pockets in the bubble I'm in, but it's enough. It's enough to have hope to keep going, that I'm not just doing this for myself 'cause I love it, that there's people there, um, who also really love and care about books and literature and, and Australian books and literature. And then I remind myself I am one, because again, I'm a reader before I'm a writer. And when I think... And you know, the conversations we have about this- Mm. Mm what books still mean to us- Yes other people's books, books we're reading as readers.

Natasha Rai

Exactly.

Emily Maguire

We're not the only ones who feel like that.

Natasha Rai

Yeah.

Emily Maguire

There's lots, and so that's hopeful. And then the really big pragmatic thing to get very, very, um, nuts and bolts about sustaining a career as an author in Australia, or anywhere probably, is to think about really how, how you are going to... well, what, what's an acceptable level of income for you to live at? And, and that is really- Mm-hmm. And we've talked about this yeah, really basic stuff to think about. But, but the question of, "How can I make more money as a writer?" That's a reasonable one, and there are various side hustles and things that people do. There's, there's always the keeping the day job, which most Australian writers do.

Natasha Rai

Mm-hmm.

Emily Maguire

Um, or at least, you know, part of the time to have another job as well. But the, the side that I don't hear people talking about, 'cause it does feel a bit icky, is actually, what do I need to live? And this is a different answer for everyone. It's not a right or wrong thing. Like, I, I live quite frugally, and for someone my age and, and all of that, I'm, you know, I, I don't have the stuff or the lifestyle that maybe I would if I had a different kind of career. But it means I can spend more of my time writing and less doing those side hustles and that other work. I know... I mean, I don't have kids. If you have kids, of course that's other people's needs you have to take into account. And, and people have... yeah, you've gotta work this out for yourself. But I do think along with the question of, "How do I make more money as a writer?" is this question of, what will make me happier? Is it actually making more money, or is it figuring out how to live on this amount of money so that I can spend more of my time writing?

Natasha Rai

Yeah. Sorry, I'm just quiet because I'm really contemplating that. I know, you know. I

Emily Maguire

know, you

Natasha Rai

know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That i- and that is excellent advice. Um Sorry, I'm, I'm doing my staring off in the distance again. Not that anyone can see me do that, but anyway. Um, yeah, and I really like that that's, that is how you have to work out, figure it out, just like you would in any other job. Mm. Like when you're working your way through a career, you're making all these decisions all the time, like, "Where can I live based on my money that I earn? What can I do based on that? What can I afford?" So I don't see why you wouldn't use the same principles. I think as well, I don't know, maybe I'm making this up, but it feels like sometimes people go into the industry imagining that theirs will be the next Weatherston Book Club pick or something magical and extraordinary will happen, and then you won't have to worry about-

Emily Maguire

Mm

Natasha Rai

the everyday. And yeah.

Emily Maguire

And you know what? It might, because that does happen. It might, exactly.

Natasha Rai

Exactly.

Emily Maguire

Because those books and those writers exist- Mm and, and fantastic, and we love to see it. But, um, that, that's not a plan.

Natasha Rai

Exactly. Yeah

Emily Maguire

Cause there's so much out of your control. It's, it's a great thing to happen- Mm but it's not a... Yeah, it can't be a plan.

Natasha Rai

Yeah. Yeah. Um, so you've already s- given me so many gems, um, but I'm curious about whether you do have a top tip for emerging writers.

Emily Maguire

Yeah. It's, it's broken into two bits- Okay, excellent but it's really interrelated advice. Yeah, yeah. So the first bit is the best way to write something is to write something, which is just stop thinking about it, making plans. I mean, definitely listen to The Book Deal Podcast and- Thank you all your writing advice, and go to writing festivals and classes and all of that. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. But that's not writing.

Natasha Rai

Yes.

Emily Maguire

You need to actually write- Mm and writing has its own, um, e- momentum. And all the theory in the world, all the great ideas in the world, you need to be getting words on the page. That's the best way to write something, is to write something. And then the second bit of that, though, is that revision is magic. It's where the magic usually happens. So you've written something, you've got it there. The revision bit, I, I find a full revision process, so not just fiddling around the edges editing, not line editing. Revision is and can be profoundly creative, and is when that deep understanding of the work and the ability to make it something special happens. So get it down, and then get to work revising it.

Natasha Rai

Yeah. Excellent advice. And I think- Yes

Emily Maguire

eternal truth.

Natasha Rai

Exactly. I love it because I totally agree. My favorite part is revision, and that rewrite, that structural thinking, oh, it's my favorite part. Like, I get so excited by that part, even when it's hard, and even when I'm like, "I hate this."

Emily Maguire

Yeah, yeah. 'Cause you can, you can see... You can start to see the possibility of it. You can start to really see what this could be. Yeah. Yeah. Which when you've got a blank page, you're still putting it together, you're still kind of putting the scaffolding up around it. It, it looks like what it is, which is messy words on a page that aren't as good as you want them to be Sounds but once you get into that revision, it, it starts to be something.

Natasha Rai

Yeah. Oh my God, I'm so inspired. Um, thank you so much, Em, for coming on The Book Deal, and, um- Thank you I'll let you get back to your trenches.

Speaker 5

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