Sarah Clutton shares how travelling the world and 'trusting the process' helped her create The Bookshop of Buried Pasts

Tina Strachan interviews author Sarah Clutton about her new novel ‘The Bookshop of Buried Pasts’. Clutton outlines the story of antiquarian book dealer Phyllida Banks, who disappears and leaves her granddaughter Lottie to run their Southern Highlands bookshop and find a man named Francis, leading to a Cambridgeshire mystery tied to an unsolved 50-year-old crime, family secrets, spirituality, and threads of witches and Celtic mythology across 1960s–70s timelines. She discusses the setting’s inspiration from Berrima and Australia’s first “book town” region, the showstopping cover design, and the title’s evolution. Clutton shares research experiences, including a death doula course and travel to English manor houses, Devon’s Clovelly, Scotland, and Shetland, and offers advice to aspiring authors: take craft courses and become open to critique.

00:00 Podcast Intro

00:56 Meet Sarah Clutton

01:39 New Book Overview

03:38 Southern Highlands Setting

06:10 Book Town Inspiration

06:49 Cover Art Breakdown

10:47 Title Origins

14:10 Death Doula Research

21:06 Phyllida Character Themes

22:54 Stalking Idea Process

24:33 Trusting the Draft

26:05 Travel As Research

27:03 Themes Of Agency

28:41 Hunting Manor Houses

29:44 Clovelly Village Magic

33:33 Scotland Estate Access

35:08 Mythology DNA Witchcraft

38:32 Daily Writing Reality

39:43 Drafting Through Discomfort

44:30 Tips For Aspiring Authors

46:27 Late Start Publishing Journey

51:17 Wrap Up And Farewell 

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Transcript

0:00

This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books. We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal. So no matter what stage of writing your at. We've got you covered. I'm Tina Strachan. I'm Madeleine Cleary. And I'm Natasha Rai. And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors one deal at a time. The Book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.

Tina Strachan 0:56

Welcome to episode 91 of the Book Deal podcast. I'm Tina Strachan, and today I'm chatting to Sarah Clutton, author of recently released The Bookshop of Buried Pasts and last year's bestseller, The Remarkable Truths of Alfie Baines. Sarah writes books filled with mystery, intrigue, and humor, and I had the best chat with Sarah recently, where she shared her travel adventures for book research, her writing process, which includes a close relationship with her sister, ideas that sprout for single scenes or characters, and the usual process of self-doubt and how we just have to trust in this process. We also chat about witchy influences and death doulas It's an incredibly interesting chat, and I hope you enjoy it Sarah Clutton, welcome to The Book Deal Podcast.

Sarah Clutton 1:49

Thank you for having me, Tina.

Tina Strachan 1:51

Aw, it's so exciting to see you. We're, we're Debut Crew '25 buddies, aren't we?

Sarah Clutton 1:56

I know. Exactly. We've been hanging out on Zoom for a while now.

Tina Strachan 2:01

It's been fun. We always talk about writing community, but yeah, Debut Crew's a, a, that extra bit of fun because everybody's sort of on the ride together, aren't they? Yeah. And so excited to see what everyone else is doing.

Sarah Clutton 2:11

Exactly. Yeah. We're all sort of clumping through the darkness together, working out where the light is.

Tina Strachan 2:17

That's... Yeah, that's exactly right. But it's been so supportive. But you know, Debut Crew, so that was... That means your first book actually came out last year, uh, The Truths of Alfie Baines.

Sarah Clutton 2:28

Yes, it

Tina Strachan 2:28

did. And, um... But we're here today to talk about your brand-new book The Bookshop of Buried Pasts. Now- Yes tell us all about it.

Sarah Clutton 2:37

It is slightly different to The Remarkable Truths of Alfie Baines in as much as it's... Well, it's not set in Tasmania, for a start. It's set between the Southern Highlands of New South Wales and Cambridgeshire in England, and it tells the story of Phyllida Banks, who's an antiquarian book dealer, who has, uh, some quite deep, dark secrets in her past. And so one day she, um, she's suddenly missing from her granddaughter Lottie's life, leaving her not only to run their antiquarian bookshop, but to, uh... She leaves her a request to find somebody called Francis. And, uh, poor Lottie has no idea who Francis is, but she sort of sets out on this quest to work out what on earth her grandmother is doing and what she's done. And she soon does some digging and it, it lands her in C- in Cambridgeshire and, uh, she finds there, uh, another bookshop with sort of eerie similarities to their own bookshop, and down the road, a man by the name of Francis Fitzhenry. Who is, uh, has quite a, a dark past as well, and he, she, she sort of realizes, I guess, at that moment that her grandmother is at the heart of a, an unsolved crime a mystery that sort of baffled police for 50 years. And so it's Th- this is the journey towards finding out who her grandmother really is. But it's also a family journey about sort of mothering and secrets and grandmotherhood and spirituality, and there's a bit about witches. There's a tiny little sub- subplot about sort of, um, Celtic mythology that It's got all the things, Tina. Mm. It's amazing. You know, if you want a book about a murder mystery with all the things, this is the one.

Tina Strachan 4:17

Yeah. Well, who doesn't want a book with all the things- a murder mystery with all the things? That sounds really exciting, and it does Yeah, it ticks lots of boxes, doesn't it? It sounds like it's got a, a little bit of everything there, which is very exciting. Um- Yeah I do wanna ask, though, so it is set in a small town? Yes. So not unlike your own, isn't it? Like,

Sarah Clutton 4:36

little rural- Oh, that's right. Yeah, so it's very much based on the small town I live in in the Southern Highlands. I made up a village in this book called Brookbank, but Brookbank is very much based around the tiny village that I live in, and there are lots of little villages scattered around the Southern Highlands. Um, so I've taken a little bit of all of them probably and just rammed them into this fictional village. But, um, it's a I live in, in Berrima, actually, which is, um, home to the famous Berkelow Book Barn a beautiful antiquarian bookshop. Well, it's a sort of secondhand book barn, and then down the back of the property, if you make an appointment, you can go into their antiquarian book barn.

Tina Strachan 5:17

Wow.

Sarah Clutton 5:18

And, uh, it's quite spectacular, and it also hosts weddings, and, um, it has beautiful restaurants. It's got all of these gorgeous spaces. So I actually had, um, my first, uh, my first Highlands book launch there, which was lovely. And yeah, so I have got lots of good inspiration for the setting of this book in- Yeah locally. And then we sort of head across the seas to, um- Mm-hmm well, I did a l- did lots of research trips about beautiful English gardens and heritage houses and, and that kind of thing over in England, so I was lucky to kind of weave that in, too, yes.

Tina Strachan 5:51

Yes. Well, I definitely have some more questions about that, actually, traveling for research. Yes. But so if you're a local then, and you're reading this book- Yeah will you see parts will there be lots of familiar places

Sarah Clutton 6:03

and

Tina Strachan 6:03

places? Yes, there

Sarah Clutton 6:04

will be. I mean, I sort of mentioned some of the, um, colonial era, uh, buildings, the heritage architecture, uh, you know, the beautiful sandstone buildings built by these poor convicts who were sort of en- enslaved and made to work and drag all this beautiful sandstone and pick it out of the earth with their picks, and you can still see all these gorgeous chisel marks in the sandstone and think about those poor people.

Tina Strachan 6:28

Wow. Mm.

Sarah Clutton 6:29

But they did leave us this s- stunning architecture. And, in fact, Berrima is a known as the most intact Georgian village on mainland Australia. Mm. There's another one very similar in, um, near Hobart. But, uh- This is in Australia. It's, it's, it's got the longest continuously licensed pub in Australia.

Tina Strachan 6:48

Oh, okay.

Sarah Clutton 6:49

So there's fame in Berrima, not just books.

Tina Strachan 6:52

No, there's so well, books and pubs. Like, it just doesn't rain. Yeah, there's

Sarah Clutton 6:55

wineries. There's, like, all the things. Yeah.

Tina Strachan 6:57

All the things. Okay, I am certainly gonna have to visit. And it's

Sarah Clutton 6:59

and actually the, um, the Southern Highlands Berrima Village in Bowral and around there, it's known as a book town. So, um, it's Australia's first book town actually. So if you know about book towns all over the world, there are these towns that are, are called book towns, and they are known to be hot spots for literary types and bookshops. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And, uh, so yes, we are a book town even though we're a region. It's very strange, but yes. Mm.

Tina Strachan 7:24

Well, it sounds like a lovely place to visit if you are doing your international- It'd be book town tour, which sounds like an incredible tour. Yes. So did want to Klimowski though, like, as the plot sounds amazing, and, um, a- and, you know, the You're weaving in all these different elements, which is fantastic. Mm. So just the, you know, the blurb on the back of the book alone is a selling point, but I really wanted to talk about the cover art and- Ooh design because it's it Like, I know for me, uh, and everybody's got different, you know, things that they enjoy and different choices with their book cover design. But I For this me, this really stood out for me and was something that would really attract me if I saw it on a shelf. Yeah. It's so beautiful. Yeah. Did you have any, Can you describe it firstly actually for people that, that- Yeah. So- that haven't seen it yet?

Sarah Clutton 8:08

That's right. So it is the c- It is, uh, a close-up of a bookshop in a dark blue and old beautiful colorful books. Mm, mm. And then there's the silhouette of a, a woman, a 19 sort of 60s hairdo p- sort of floating through the background. And there's lovely flowers all around it. And yeah, so I it's a stunning, stunning cover, and I was lovely, uh, lucky that, um, uh, the the cover designer and the artist who was employed to do the artwork were so clever. And- gave us this incredible, um, cover because it actually, I think, has really been quite showstopping- Mm you know, uh, in, in terms of, you know, it's had lots of you know, art- the artwork's been used on the cover of, of various magazines and things and it, in, in the book world. And that's- Mm it's really lovely when, you know, artists are recognized for their work because that does help sell a book, I think. If you're Obviously they say you can't judge a book by its cover, but I think you can judge a book at least by- And I think people

Tina Strachan 9:16

absolutely do

Sarah Clutton 9:17

I think it's fantastic, so. Mm-hmm. Um, but it, yeah it's generated a lot of interest, which is very lucky for me.

Tina Strachan 9:23

Mm. And did you have any input into that or did you just leave it all up to, uh,

Sarah Clutton 9:27

up to them? Uh, not There was a, a couple of little tweaks, you know, with some colors and things that I sort of, suggested. But r- ultimately I, um, could see how well they'd done and I just sort of- was thrilled. Yeah.

Tina Strachan 9:40

Mm-hmm. Yeah, they know what they're doing- They

Sarah Clutton 9:42

know

Tina Strachan 9:43

what they're doing don't they? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I find it really interesting because, uh, as you know, I'm published with Harper Collins, and every year they have an author day. And, uh, so you can, you can go down or can join online, and they ask various, um, you know, people in departments from, uh, the company to talk. And they usually always have the artists and the, designers, and they walk you through how they come up with these ideas and, and where they pull it from and put it all together. Yeah. And jeez, it's- Yeah incredible what they do. And then, you know, the finished product, you know, how it, how- Look you know, they have a rough and then a finished product, and- mm it just looks incredible. And- Yes it really does sell a book. You know, if th... If, you know, you see The Bookshop of Buried Past on a shelf, it certainly would draw your attention. It's

Sarah Clutton 10:27

kind of- It's intriguing,

Tina Strachan 10:27

isn't it? Yeah, it is. It,

Sarah Clutton 10:28

it, it does reflect the sense of intrigue that I was trying- Mm-hmm to have with this book, because this is a book about, intriguing old bookshops and cozy, comforting corners and- Mm-hmm um-

Tina Strachan 10:40

Yeah, they captured that. Definitely.

Sarah Clutton 10:41

It... They really captured that, didn't they? Mm. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, secrets, buried secrets. That's what it's about.

Tina Strachan 10:47

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and it's a little bit dark, but it's also got some beautiful color there. You know, I did wanna ask you, though, there's so- there's a couple of little books in the window.

Sarah Clutton 10:54

Yeah.

Tina Strachan 10:55

And they look... Uh, do they have any significance there? They sort of face out. They kind of look like they've got, like they're meant to be other books. Do you- Oh, look, I- They're already published? Yeah

Sarah Clutton 11:05

I'm not exactly sure. I sort of know what you mean, but it's, um- Yeah I don't exactly think... I... Look, I don't know. I don't know. Mm. That's a good question. Ask

Tina Strachan 11:15

the designers. They, they might-

Sarah Clutton 11:17

Yeah,

Tina Strachan 11:18

they

Sarah Clutton 11:18

do it put their own little, um, private ones in there I just sort of thought it's very clever. Mm. And they did actually take, you know, when I describe the bookshop in the book, it is a, that dark dusty blue. Mm-hmm and so they've really captured exactly what I said in the book, too.

Tina Strachan 11:34

Yeah.

Sarah Clutton 11:34

Which is-

Tina Strachan 11:35

And, um, titles as well. Was this your title from the beginning?

Sarah Clutton 11:38

My title- Oh, wow which is interesting. Mm. Yeah. So actually the book started out when I pitched it as The Final Request of Phyllida Banks. Mm-hmm. And Phyllida Banks is our protagonist. She's 80- Mm and she's wanting to... She's kind of come to that point in her life where she needs to... Well, A, she's faced with a sl- something of a crisis, but then B, she sort of wants to look back and work out what is a good life. And she... This is her ponderings throughout the book. We've, we still hear her pondering what is a good life and what is a good death. And, um, so actually, Phyllida Banks was the beginning of this story. She I had a scene in my head in about 2017 when I was writing actually, before We're, we're in this po- the, um, the debut crew together because these are my first two traditionally published books, but I had two books out earlier in 2019 and 2020 with, uh, Bookouture who are Hachette UK's digital first publica- publ- publisher. And so I have had two books out before. And, um, when I was in the middle of writing one of those and really hating it as I, I tend to do and I'm sure lots of other writers tend to do when they're in about sort of 40% into a book that they really-

Tina Strachan 12:54

Hate and think- Start doubting

Sarah Clutton 12:55

everything, yes oh, I'm such a terrible writer. I've got nothing here. There's no story. Yeah. This is stupid. What am I doing? Mm-hmm. I need to throw it away. Mm-hmm. That point that, you know, I've definitely hit every time I've tried to write a novel. I had this scene very, come to me really strongly of this sort of elderly wom- woman l- looking out the window one night and thinking about the en- ending her own life and- But she had this sort of glint in her eye of sort of mischief, and she was thinking of the things she was leaving behind and what she was leaving for the, for the, her loved ones, because she knew it was gonna be a big surprise. I just had that scene very vividly in my head, and I thought, "No, that's the book I wanna write." And I said to my sister, who helps me write my books, 'cause she's got lots of great ideas, "Uh, this book is really stupid that we're writing." 'Cause I say she, she helps me write, 'cause she just gives me lots of ideas. Uh, "I'm gonna write this book instead." And she's Of course, as any sensible human would say is, "Don't be ridiculous. This is a great book. Keep going. You just have to..." 'Cause I'm not a, I'm not a finisher, but somehow I manage to finish. And, um, so Phyllida Banks was put on the back burner. She didn't have the name at that point, but she was really inspired by my grandmother, who was kind of a, kind of wickedly gleeful, joyous, intelligent, beautiful, g- warm human who just picked up people everywhere she went. She had friends You know, she'd go on a train journey for two hours, and at the end she'd be writing down people's telephone numbers, and- Lovely you know, they'd be friends for life. And, um, so she was this sort of curious, interested person. And I wanted to explore what a good death was as well. And so when I had this idea for The Remarkable Sorry, not The Remarkable. The Final Request of Phyllida Banks, I pitched it, and then I thought, "This is gonna be about death, this book." Even though I write uplift, which is uplifting literature, it's meant to be funny and humorous and warm and feel-good, but with some dark themes in the middle. I thought "I want to explore death. How am I gonna do that in uplift? That's gonna be fun." So I I wrote an article about this recently. I sort of- Was interested in the idea of death doulas and death walkers. I don't know if you know what they are, but they, um... A doula in birth is someone who helps you through birth, and a doula in death is the same. It's someone who helps you through the process of dying and death. So it might be somebody you know, you might know you're dying and, you know, the logistical and physical and personal and familial aspects of dying can all be very difficult. And so having someone there with you or with your family to help with whatever aspect of those things you want, whether it's your funeral, whether it's sitting by your bed and making sure you're comfortable, whether it's doing your paperwork, the admin, helping you to tell your children that you're dying. What- whatever it might be, the death doulas or death walkers can help you with this, and they're trained in the how to help somebody have a death that they want to have that will feel right and you know, with dignity and all of those things. So I was interested in that, and I, um, and I, I, it was my-- I woke up on my birthday about three years ago and sort of my husband had organized a party at, uh, a local pub for me, and then I, my death walker hashtag came up. And I could see that my, uh, that this incredible death walker, who's very well known, and she has a, she has a center in Mullumbimby called the Natural Death Care Center. She came up on my hashtag, and she- was doing one final course in Australia that year, it was May, one final course that year, and it was in Melbourne, and it was the following day. And I thought, and it started at 9:00 AM the following day, and so I thought, "Hmm, I need to get to Melbourne for that." Can't... And I live in the countryside quite far away from the airport, so I thought, "I need to go today so that I can get there for the 9:00 AM start tomorrow." So I canceled my birthday party while my husband was still sleeping, and I booked a flight and came to Melbourne and did a death doula course for one day. It was really interesting. Anyway, that's a long story. E- and su- suffice to say, none of it made it into the book. But, but Phyllida Banks' journey towards what is a good death and what is a good life and what is my sort of spiritual reckoning with all of these ideas is definitely through the book. And so once I made her into a book dealer, there was a much more intriguing title I could give it, because who doesn't wanna hang out in an antiquarian bookshop, frankly- with a woman like Phyllida Banks? And so, uh, I pitched that title to my publisher when I was halfway through the book, and she absolutely loved it, so that was lucky. Hmm. Mm. It was a long

Tina Strachan 18:00

answer, wasn't it? But w- it's an incredible story. I wasn't sure f- at the beginning if death doulas, um, were actually real th- people a- real things that people do, but that sounds incredible, and what a hard job but fulfilling, and what an incredible type of person to do that work. Thank you. How did you find the course? It didn't make you wanna become a death doula- after that or?

Sarah Clutton 18:23

Well, I've trained in a one, a one-day course, which makes you absolutely for nothing probably. But, uh, what it did do was, all it did was sort of to tell you how a death doula could be- What's

Tina Strachan 18:33

involved

Sarah Clutton 18:33

trained and what's involved. So, you know, I did my death plan, and I, Oh and you know, when we're with death, there's all these beautiful people. Yeah. People who are interested in a s- a sort of a, a beautiful death are really nice people. Like, when you go to a course like this, you're only gonna meet nice people. It's like the writing community, right? They're all nice. Mm-hmm. And, um, so we were all sitting around, about 25 of us in this room, and we did things like she's like, you know, sort of three-quarters of the way through the day she's like, "Oh, now, you know, we were talking about disposal methods, right? So you can, all of the things, coffins and this and that and-"

Tina Strachan 19:08

Mm-hmm

Sarah Clutton 19:09

"natural disposal." And then we talked about shrouds and what is the purpose of a shroud and why would you do that and- And then we were, like, given the opportunity to be wrapped in a shroud-

Tina Strachan 19:22

Mm

Sarah Clutton 19:23

um, and how, how to wrap someone in a shroud after they- Wow how to wrap your person. And so eight people would wrap the person on the floor, and we all took turns, and we were all, like, definitely keen to be wrapped in the shroud.

Tina Strachan 19:37

Mm.

Sarah Clutton 19:37

And they teach you how to... Or maybe it was six people. I don't... Six or eight people. Three on, four, four on each side of this shroud, and it's, which is just a piece of fabric, whatever beautiful piece of fabric you want to use. And you would lie, the person would lie on it, and you would... Obviously, there would be no movement. You would be pretending that you were the person who was going, who was dead, and they would wrap you s- ever so gently, then they would pick you up and, in a second piece of fabric, rock you in the air in this dark room while you were wrapped in a shroud. It was the most incredible moment. It was- S- s- just to feel the care of these human beings who are so invested in honoring a person, right? Mm. And learning how to honor somebody, their person. It was so sort of moving- Mm as a, as a participant. Mm-hmm. Anyway, that was one of my experiences in the club.

Tina Strachan 20:41

Mm. Yeah. That's beautiful. It's, uh, k- quite spiritual and kind of, yeah, it's sort of as serious as death can be, it's, um, so lovely to th- to think that- if you're planning it, 'cause it's the person who's faced with death that's actually organizing all of this, right? And putting this all in place. So it must feel really empowering to

Sarah Clutton 21:07

sort of have control of that. Well, and I think there were, there were lots of people there from diff- for different reasons, I think. Mm. Some people wanted to do the long training course as a death doula. Other people may have had someone in their life who was facing death. Other people just wanted to get ready because they had aging parents or other people in their lives who would be coming to this moment that we are all gonna come to. Mm. And they all, they just, they were just interested. So it was, it was- Mm super interesting. Yeah. But anyway- Great

Tina Strachan 21:36

experience

Sarah Clutton 21:36

the book's actually not about death. It's-

Tina Strachan 21:38

No, that's right. But that's okay. But you know what? It'll probably work its way into future books, and I think that- Oh, yeah would be incredible. Um- Doing a d- death walker protagonist. Oh, yeah. How amazing. Well- Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting that

Sarah Clutton 21:49

could be interesting, right? I might have to do a bit more research.

Tina Strachan 21:52

Yes. Mm. I would love to

Sarah Clutton 21:53

read that. Mm. Yeah. That's good. But, but Phyllida is, Phyllida is our wise woman in the book. She's a beautiful protagonist because she doesn't feel sorry for herself. She is curious. You know, and people who are curious, they're the people that you wanna hang out with because they ask questions and they're interested in you. And then, you know, she's not judgmental. She's But she's made mistakes, and she's also dealing with the mental health crises that have faced her through her life because of past traumas. And so, you know, I try not to shy away from that. But, realizing that, you know, these people who are incredibly wise and warm may well have had these traumas and these crises in their life. But they have faced them, and she is sort of teaching her family, I guess, or her community what it is to walk with your past.

Tina Strachan 22:46

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Clutton 22:46

And how, if you, There's a, a line in the book which I can't remem- because I made it up so long ago, but, you know, after a lot of reading and a lot of kind of, uh, this Celtic mythology working its way into my mind, you know, if you learn to walk with your past while the raven flies, you will- that, you know, that if you learn to walk with it, there will be, that's where wisdom lies and to sit with it, and to, to be beside it, and to understand that you can't turn away from what you've faced, but you just need to sit with it. And this is her journey about sitting with her past, and how she has sometimes not done that-

Tina Strachan 23:30

Mm-hmm but

Sarah Clutton 23:31

how she does do that. But really at the heart, this book is a rollicking murder mystery. Mm. But we have this sort of interesting spiritual journey of Phyllida on the side, so that's quite fun to do too.

Tina Strachan 23:42

Yeah, that sounds like a lot of fun. We've had a few authors on recently that have been talking about or mentioning what we've been calling the stalking idea where this idea sort of comes into your mind and for a story. And, you know, it sounds like that's what happened with this one. It sort of popped into your mind, and you thought about it, and then sort of just popped it to the side a little bit, but it didn't leave you. And, and that's... And they were all saying that's how you know that that's sort of the story that you have to write. So is that what happened with you?

Sarah Clutton 24:14

I mean, certainly that was that was my protagonist who came to me just with that one scene, and it was actually the same way that Alfie Baines started too. I had one scene. I had... In Alfie Baines, I had a very strong scene that I'd written years ago that I f- stumbled on when I was looking for a new book idea of an older woman who, in her 60s, on the phone to her sister, and I'd, I'd written this scene, so I'd, I'd forgotten about it. But it was a... She was on the phone to her sister. She was in her farmhouse. She was sort of struggling with life and ideas and, loneliness. And she goes to the door of her farmhouse when there's a knock, and at the front door stands a boy, and the scene finished there. You know, I knew nothing about this woman or this boy. I didn't know who the boy was. But when I was sort of thinking maybe I'll write a book, uh, to learn who this boy is, that was- sim- that was the whole imp- impetus for that book. And similarly with this one, what was the secret that this elderly woman was looking at out the window and thinking about as she pondered death? And that for me has been how those two books started. My current book is really driving me crazy 'cause I don't have one of those scenes to go on.

Tina Strachan 25:28

Oh.

Sarah Clutton 25:29

I don't know what the book is. I'm just, I'm writing every day thinking, "Oh, this is terrible." But, um- It's

Tina Strachan 25:35

the process though, isn't it? It's the process. Uh, it

Sarah Clutton 25:37

is. Yeah. Mm. Yeah, no, I remember very vividly talking to my publisher, Annette Barlow, in, at a festival one, you know, s- nine months before Bookshop needed to be handed in, and I said, "Oh, Annette, this book's terrible." And she's like, "It is not, stop it

Tina Strachan 25:58

She's like, "All my authors come

Sarah Clutton 25:59

to me at some point and say that." "Annette, would you rewrite it 300 times and it's no longer terrible, and it actually, that, that it's quite good." And you're like, "Oh my God, this is amazing. How did it go from terrible to good? This is unbelievable." So that is trusting the process- Mm-hmm which is a s- one of those little phrases that I never really understood until, like, last week, when I thought, "Oh, I've been here so many times before. I hate everything I write."

Tina Strachan 26:21

Mm-hmm. It sort of doesn't make it easier though, does it? I feel like you still get-

Sarah Clutton 26:27

No, it doesn't. Although it does make you feel like, "I can do it. I can do it."

Tina Strachan 26:32

Yeah. Like, y- you know, you've got that hindsight, "I've done it before, I can do it again." But then you're stuck in it and you still think, "No, this is rubbish. I cannot write." Yeah, but

Sarah Clutton 26:39

then you feel-

Tina Strachan 26:40

But, yes And you trust the process, and you just keep going. Yeah. No, that's-

Sarah Clutton 26:46

I'll keep going. Yeah. I mean, I think there's probably something in my brain, but who knows?

Tina Strachan 26:52

It'll... Well, it will, it will come out. It will flow, I'm sure of it. But so that's an incredible story about the researching of the death-dwellers and the death walkers. And I did wanna talk to you about researching for books, and how traveling is a really good excuse. I mean, sorry, is very important for research. Exactly. Um, but if you can, if you can work in a few, you know, overseas locations, then traveling surely, uh, is a great way of going over and seeing for yourself, and, you know- Yeah finding what, what parts you wanna include. And, uh, you did this with, uh, with your book, and I just wanted to ask you a little bit about that, where you traveled, 'cause a lot of it, like you said, was half of it really is overseas. Yeah. And you-

Sarah Clutton 27:37

Almost. Yeah, a little bit less probably. 40% is set in, in England. And, you know, and equally the book I'm writing now is partially set in Scotland. And-

Tina Strachan 27:48

Oh, and have you been there? I'm

Sarah Clutton 27:51

back from Scotland- Okay from my research trip.

Tina Strachan 27:52

Okay. Um,

Sarah Clutton 27:53

but yeah, I think- that's really because, I mean, apart from wanting to explore issues like death and dying and, um, issues like with Alfie Baines, I wanted to explore issues of grandmothering, and I wanted to explore the issues around agency in children. What does it take? What is it when a child has no agency in their dis- in their life, and what does that look like? And what would that look like if you had a character like Alfie Baines, who is quite extraordinary? And, um, that he- helps, you know, with those nar- That narrative drive is much easier when you've got an unusual child, right? To look at those issues like agency and childhood, and what it feels like to be helpless to be not in charge of your own destiny, and why is that why is that Is it that we give children so little agency in their own lives? That was an interesting theme. Even though I didn't know I was necessarily exploring that, when I got into the depths of that book, that was what I was exploring. Um, but equally in these sort of interesting themes that you get to play with as an author, 'cause you're just lucky, right? I equally just wanna go back to being in the Famous Five and drinking lemonade and lying in the hea- having an adventure where there's a cave and a pirate and a smuggler. Equally, I just wanna do that. Mm-hmm. In Bookshop at Buried Pass, I thought, "Well, I need a bit of that, right? I need, like, a mystery, and there's gotta be some heather and ginger beer or whatever." Maybe not. There were probably red wine. But so I went to- England, and I thought, "I need to find a manor house," 'cause at the heart of Bookshop of Buried Pasts is a manor house in the English countryside, and I needed to find this place because I really do write from life, so I need to know what I'm writing because I've seen it. Mm-hmm. So I wanted to take a real manor house and use that. And so I traveled around the UK and all around the UK, and I've ended up finding one in Richmond called Ham House. Beautiful old manor house from the 1500s or whatever. And, um, so that was really fun, so going on a trip and, you know, claiming my, my expenses for a little bit of tax relief was fun. And, um, also just going around to all these places and seeing these incredible English walled gardens and beautiful old houses that have so much history in the secret passages, and the beautiful old paintings on the walls, and all of these things. So that stuff was fun. And, going And in the book there is a scene set in the real village in Devon of Clovelly, which is an incredibly gorgeous fishing village, and if, if you've ever been to Clovelly, y- you won't forget it. It's this tiny village of, I don't know, maybe 100 houses maybe more. But it, it's set on the side of the of a very steep hill with all these cobbled paths between them. There are no cars allowed into the village, and so until ex- until extremely recently, donkeys pulled people's groceries up the hill or down the hill by sled. Interesting. So there would be one place, a tiny little spot for a car or a truck at the bottom of the hill, and then you would get your donkey to bring your, your groceries up on a sled. And this was going on for a long, long time till very recently. And so in the book when I'm back in our '60s timeline, 'cause there is a, a '60- 1960s and a 1970s timeline in here- We go to Clovelly and we have that little experience, which was super fun. And Clovelly now is spectacular to visit. There's a pub at the bottom of the hill called The Red Lion, and that's the only place in the village where you're allowed to bring a car because it's right at the bottom of the hill on this curved bay where all of these spectacular s- fishing boats sit. And there's a pub that comes out into the ocean on this sort of stone, uh, th- built stone harbor. And around the bay all the, these tiny little cottages are built overlooking the pub, The Red Lion. And there's only a few rooms at The Red Lion. It's really hard to get a room if you don't book ahead. And so I managed to get one night at The Red Lion. So we drove in, and because there are no parking spaces the only people who come to the pub in the summer when I was there, in this spectacular place that has been used in films because it is so filmic. It, the only people that come are the tourists who have happened to have one of the, 15 rooms at the pub or whatever. Yeah. Or 20 rooms at the pub, and the locals. So this is a local pub, and every summer, uh, every summer and every Friday night and Saturday night during summer they have a band playing on this incredible harbor for the locals and those lucky tourists. Mm. Which happened to be about seven people. My husband and me. And it was the most moving, gorgeous place. And it's owned by the fellow at the top who has a manor house right at the top of the hill. He owns every house in that village. He doesn't let, um, second homers rent from him. They have to be contributing members of the village. Village was once owned by the Queen in the 1200s, and she's on-sold it to these very wealthy families who've held it through the generations. It's the most unusual place. Mm. And it's incredibly beautiful, and you can only walk up these very steep cobbled paths through these tiny stone houses. a- and you talk to the locals and they think it's the most wonderful place to live. So there was a little bit of Ginger Beer and Heather research for you. Mm-hmm. That was fun. I put it in the book.

Tina Strachan 33:43

Yeah. No, that's perfect. Well, you need the balance, right? Between murder mystery and, just lying in the fields in the middle of- And all of the other things

Sarah Clutton 33:49

yeah.

Tina Strachan 33:50

Yeah. But also, travel, you know, you could be going there to research a particular thing. You've got a little bit of an idea about it, but you just don't know what you're gonna stumble across- Yeah and how it's going to work its way into your books. And places like that, I f- I feel like it only happens when you're traveling far away. Yeah. And when you sit back and you just go, "What is... Where are we? What is happening? This is, this is otherworldly." And you just, it, it just creates this m- magical experience that you'll remember forever and, and, you know, it could be made into your book.

Sarah Clutton 34:21

Yeah, no, that's right. You can put these in your book. So yeah, I just got back from Scotland, and I decided I'd s- I pitched it my next book. I pitched a, you know, this, this woman who owns a Scottish... She's married to the Scottish laird, and they, um, have this- crises happen and, um, anyway I thought, oh, I need to go and work out how this Scottish landholding system works, 'cause it's, it's quite a, a topical at the moment, the landholdings in Scotland. There's a lot of push to change the regulations because these old families in Scotland have owned so much of the land forever, and I, so I went across to Scotland and through a friend of a friend I met, you know, the lad of, of one of these huge estates, and went to dinner and, you know, had these amazing experiences where he took me out to this little island in the middle of the loch that his family had begun on in, in the 1200s when Robert the Bruce first gave them the, the title of this 7,000 acres. And he took me out to this crannog, which is this tiny little island covered in reeds, and the ruins of the original house were. And, you know, I got these incredible experiences because when you're writing a book, people are so interested to help you. And so you k- you find yourself in these incredible situations. Yeah. So yeah, I've, I've got those lovely stories for my next book. I just have to work out what the story is, which is what I'm rambling with at the moment.

Tina Strachan 35:45

I'm sure it'll come to you. But yeah, all that history, especially when you travel to those countries overseas, just so much history, isn't it? Mm-hmm that unfolds and yeah, just- Yeah, yeah you know, different, uh, landscapes even is just so-

Sarah Clutton 35:57

It's so interesting. And if you're interested, like, I mean, I'm a little bit interested in witchcraft in terms of... You know, I didn't really put it in The Bookshop of Buried Pasts, but I put a little bit of, of my inter- vague interest in Celtic mythology through it. But, um, it's only a tiny thread, right? But you get to play with stuff and you- Mm-hmm can if you want

Tina Strachan 36:15

to. Mm-hmm.

Sarah Clutton 36:15

And I, in the final pages of The Bookshop of Buried Pasts, we fly to Lerwick in Scotland, in Shetland, the... And in Scotland. And a tiny island of Shetland which is famous because of Ann Cleeves possibly or, all of those books. And- I, I put into that book one of my other protagonists was ha- has, had been quite influenced by her family history. So there's a lot of There's a thread about somebody looking for their family history in this book, and she does a DNA test, and she discovers that her four times great-grandfather was a real man called Sa- Samuel Tulloch, who was a ship's captain who sailed his ship, the North Mabyn, from Shetland in Scotland to Launceston in Tasmania. And and because I'm originally Tasmanian, I, that interests me. And then so I, uh, I gave my protagonist this man as her four times great-grandfather, and his name was Samuel Tulloch. And a few generations before Samuel Tulloch- was born in Shetland. The last woman to be burned as a witch at the, in Shetland was a woman called Barbara Tulloch. So they shared a surname, so I figured they were probably quite you know, there was probably a big chance on a tiny island with a tiny population that they were somehow related. Mm-hmm. Anyway, but Samuel Tulloch is actually my four times great-grandfather, right? So I figure I'd really like to have some connection to the, the last beautiful herbalist woman and her daughter, Helen, who were burned as witches, because I feel I wanna tell their story. Mm. And so I just mention them because, you know, that's a bit of fun too and it's interest- Yeah I really want to bring, I wanna bring, Because in, in the story we have a herbalist. Phyllida Banks is a herbalist- Yeah as well as a book dealer, and her grandmother was a herbalist. And so I bring all these little threads in because it's interesting to me, and I'm interested in- What history does through the generations. And,

Tina Strachan 38:25

Yeah

Sarah Clutton 38:25

anyway, that was me. It

Tina Strachan 38:26

gives you a chance to play with it, doesn't it, and explore it. Yeah. And you clearly have some connection there that you probably didn't even realize, but-

Sarah Clutton 38:33

Exa- Who knows?

Tina Strachan 38:35

Yeah.

Sarah Clutton 38:36

But, but you know, S- S- Samuel Tulloch was an interesting find for me in the d- in the family history, and I thought, "Oh, well, that goes back to Shetland." And I really feel drawn to explore that area of, of the world. I've, I've been there a few times, and I really find it interesting. Mm. And, uh, why not bring those little threads into a book?

Tina Strachan 38:58

Absolutely. Well, it's your book. You can do whatever you

Sarah Clutton 39:01

want. It's like there aren't that many rules, right? It's a bit worrying.

Tina Strachan 39:04

No. Well, you can... That, that's the, you know, the beauty of it, isn't it? It's fiction, and you can in- write about- Yeah whatever you want and make it yours. Yeah. I mean, you have to enjoy writing it, right? And it's gotta be authentic to you, which it is if you include all those- Yeah all those- A few little things bits and pieces that you- That

Sarah Clutton 39:19

I'm fond

Tina Strachan 39:19

of yeah, that you're interested in.

Sarah Clutton 39:21

Yeah.

Tina Strachan 39:22

Okay, Sarah, so when you're not traveling the world and doing your research- Yeah can you tell us about a normal day in, uh, the life of Sarah Clutton? Is there a normal day in the life? Well- What's... How does it work for you?

Sarah Clutton 39:34

Um. How

Tina Strachan 39:34

do you get it all done? Well,

Sarah Clutton 39:36

I'm not very good at doing a- you know, any kind of normal day because I'm just so scatterbrained. And so I would normally get up and sit down and make a coffee and then try and write, and often just stare at the screen and look at my Instagram instead. Mm-hmm. So I need to work that out. But, um-

Tina Strachan 39:56

Get rid of the Instagram. It's hard though, isn't it?

Sarah Clutton 39:58

I know. I need to do that. But no, I, I do a little bit of other sort of copywriting, although that's really dried up since AI a lot.

Tina Strachan 40:07

Oh, has it? Yeah, I bet.

Sarah Clutton 40:09

Yeah. And I'm sort of interested, and I do a tiny little bit of work with social impact for our company- Mm um, that we have. But I don't have a normal writing day. It's just sit down and try and do a few sessions of writing, and if I'm lucky, I might get- some words written. But often, you know, like for example my book that's due in in January, in, in terms of a draft is due in in January, and then I guess we'll hopefully get a few structural edits going on. I've had that book, since September I've had a You know, I was lucky to get a contract for another two books. And I've had that, that idea that I pitched in September with no real idea about what it was gonna be, but it was in Scotland and then we, there's an s- Tasmanian element and a house and all of this stuff. And, um, and for many months I didn't write any words exactly. I just threw ideas around with my sister who, as I said, has good ideas. And I wrote synopsis and then I thought, "That's terrible and that's ridiculous and that's stupid." And then I, you know, after a month of working on one synopsis I'd change it and then I'd have all these characters that no longer worked as that, in that way. Maybe I'd change them, they'd work that way, and I write another synopsis. You know, they might be 10,000 word synopsis or something. You know, just- Oh,

Tina Strachan 41:42

wow. Yeah

Sarah Clutton 41:44

sort of, or 5,000 words or something, just-

Tina Strachan 41:45

Yeah

Sarah Clutton 41:46

rubbishy sort of ideas that I put into some sort of form. And then I throw that one out and then I start again. And then I thought, "Oh, God. I've got to start writing this book." So I, in about March or, yeah, I started writing some words, and I had about 10, 15,000 words by the time I went to Scotland in mid-April. And, you know, at that stage you've got eight months left to write the book, and you're going to do your research. And then I got back from Scotland and I threw those 15 word, thousand words out, and I s- wrote a new synopsis. Mm-hmm. And then I've started writing that, that book. They're all kind of vaguely related. You know, I've got this one character and I've got this one setting and I've got this one opening scene, but how is that gonna work with all the other characters and- Mm-hmm these two settings in Tasmania and in Scotland, how are they gonna work together and really would they W- that's ridiculous what you've come up with, Sarah. That doesn't work. Anyway, so now I'm about I don't even know how much I'm in. I may be 15, another 15,000 or 20,000 words in. And that's going badly, but I am really-

Tina Strachan 43:02

Is this another synopsis or you've just started writing?

Sarah Clutton 43:04

I think, no, these are the words of this- Yeah latest synopsis. Yeah. And I think I'll just keep going with it because it comes to a point where you just have to go, "Stop it."

Tina Strachan 43:12

Yeah.

Sarah Clutton 43:13

Keep writing this. Yeah. It's probably terrible, but when you get to the end of a whole first draft- you're gonna rewrite the whole thing anyway, and it'll-

Tina Strachan 43:21

That's right

Sarah Clutton 43:21

be something else. Yeah. Yeah. I, it, I'm

Tina Strachan 43:24

just, um- You could come up with a synopsis that you think is great and works perfectly, and then you can start writing it, and then it all just changes direction, and you have no control over that. So it is hard, isn't it? It's trying to find that balance between the two.

Sarah Clutton 43:37

Yeah. And it... You know, you've gotta be prepared, I think, as a writer to sit in the discomfort of your, um, own company, which is boring because I bore myself a lot, and I think, "Oh, this is boring. I don't have any colleagues." So that's boring as a writer because- Mm I mean, I mean, I don't mind being alone in my head, but it can be tedious, and you do need to get out there. And so I do go for a walk and look at all the interesting people or... So I'm, I'm in Melbourne for a few months at the moment, so, in the inner city, and so I get to kind of look at all the interesting people who don't usually hang out in the village where I live in the Southern Highlands, and that is giving me a little bit of impetus for my 2030 book, which sounds a long way away, but I'm, I've got my-

Tina Strachan 44:25

Sounds like a really long way away.

Sarah Clutton 44:27

I know, but like- Wow it, it will come because then when I hand this in January, I'm meant to be starting that one, and I've... Thinking that's why I'm on this gap year in Melbourne to-

Tina Strachan 44:36

Yeah get

Sarah Clutton 44:37

some ideas for that book. Yeah. Yeah. You gotta just be prepared to remember that you hate sitting with your stupid head, and then you've just gotta do it anyway. That's kind of the trick, I think.

Tina Strachan 44:47

Yeah. And I think that's the s- that is the same for all jobs. There are things that you love about them, but there's things that you don't like doing about them. Every job, has its fun things, like- Yeah. For sure when the... Yeah, like when the words flow, that's great, but then the actual work of making them sound half decent and- Oh, exactly making sure that all the loose ends are tied up can get quite hard, can't it?

Sarah Clutton 45:10

It can. But that's, as you say, it's just a job, and it's a fun job, and it doesn't pay very well, but we just do it anyway.

Tina Strachan 45:17

Yeah, because we can't, hey. Well, yeah, speaking of that, and we are very lucky to have that job a lot of our listeners are emerging authors or aspiring authors looking to be published. Mm. Do you... What are your top tips, now that you've been on this publishing journey for a little while now, what are your top tips for aspiring authors or, or people that are wanting to get published?

Sarah Clutton 45:43

Well I've, I've done lots of courses, which helps you to, If you're like me and you sort of get overwhelmed by all the possibilities, and you also don't, you don't know what you don't know until you've done a bit, bit of work on craft, I guess. So you know, I think it does help to do a course if you are coming at it from a background where you haven't studied how to write. So I've done lots of writing courses, novel writing courses and so on, and other, other writing courses. I think that's very, very helpful because it also helps you to get comfortable in the, uh, idea that someone can critique your work. Unless you let Unless you get very good at letting people critique your work and become very open to that and then you're not probably going to improve as quickly as you might. And also when you start working with your publisher, which you will if you keep going for long enough then, they It's gonna be a much more enjoyable experience for both of you if you are very open to critique. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. Mm. I think do a course.

Tina Strachan 46:56

And I think a p- publishers appreciate when you're open to critique too, because-

Sarah Clutton 47:00

Yeah

Tina Strachan 47:01

it is part of the process, and it does have to happen. And yes, if you can, go through the process beforehand so that you know how to take on board, comments and feedback, then I think that that's- Yeah they would appreciate that a lot.

Sarah Clutton 47:14

Exactly. Exactly. Mm. So that's a good tip. And the other thing is well I mean I didn't really start writing novels until I was in my mid to late 40s because I thought I could never do it. Because I have that sort of brain that is uh, scrambled and doesn't remember things. Like, literally doesn't remember things at all. And and also a little bit of, you know, even, uh, even facial blindness, I have a bit of that going on. I, I can't remember things and I A- and you know, I, I find it very difficult to hold onto a thread of anything. And so when you ask me what a novel was about or if I've read it, I probably won't remember reading it. And if I do remember reading it, I won't remember what it was about. I might remember the feeling of it or if I thought it was good. Mm. But I won't remember the story, and I won't remember any detail that happened in it probably. And so the I don't say that lightly, it's, it's really true. Mm. I have a terrible memory. And so I thought when I started writing that I would start with picture books, because I could re- remember 400 words, you know? I could remember that arc.

Tina Strachan 48:27

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Clutton 48:28

Um, and that wasn't so hard for someone like me who doesn't hold onto information very easily. I thought, "Well, there's no way I could write a novel," because I just finished a novel yesterday, and I can't tell you what was in that novel really. I can- I can't remember how, how that, they got from there to there. How could I possibly write a novel? So anyway, I w- I, I failed dismally at picture books, then I failed at middle grade, then I failed at, anything to do with shorter things which I thought I might be able to do because I, of my memory and my brain. I failed at all of those dismally, and I spent many years trying and trying and failing and failing to get those published. And so eventually I, I was left with only the novel that I hadn't tackled And I thought, "Well, Sarah, if you want to be a writer, and you think that's your best skill in life," which, you know, I was g- good at writing things. I was a lawyer and I could write sentences that were nice, although you had to re- unlearn being a lawyer to be a novelist, to be frank. You have to unlearn all the things you learn. I can

Tina Strachan 49:33

imagine.

Sarah Clutton 49:34

But I thought, "Then I'm gonna have to work out how to write a novel," and, you know, there's gotta be people like me who've done this before. There's gotta be ways to do it. So then at the age of, I don't know, 46 or something, I thought I'll just start writing a novel." There's gotta be ways that I can write it down that I remember what I've written. Yeah. And there'll be ways forward. And so I started writing it, and I got 40,000 words in, and then realized I had absolutely no clue what I was doing. I didn't know anything about structure, I didn't know anything about- what you had to put in a novel. I didn't know about turning points, or I didn't know about anything. So then I did a, you know, then I got an email from the Australian Writers' Centre, I think at that moment that I'd had this revelation that I was useless and couldn't do it. And I signed up, and then I had a novel written at the end of another six months. So that was wild.

Tina Strachan 50:27

Cool. What course was that?

Sarah Clutton 50:28

Uh, that was the-

Tina Strachan 50:30

The write a- Write

Sarah Clutton 50:31

Your Novel Write. Yeah Write

Tina Strachan 50:32

Your Novel.

Sarah Clutton 50:32

Yeah. Yeah.

Tina Strachan 50:33

So, and it, like, did what it says on the packet, right? Like, you wrote your novel.

Sarah Clutton 50:38

I wrote my novel. That's cool. It was sort of at that desperate moment in my mid-life where I thought, "What is my life about? What- Mm what on earth have I achieved?" Because I'd come to the end of my sort of heavy duty mothering years, where my children were not needing me as much. I mean, obviously they did need me a lot, but that physical amount of supervision you need to do- Yeah was at an end.

Tina Strachan 51:03

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Clutton 51:03

And I thought Sarah, this is, it's like do or die. You've gotta do it." And so I did it. I did it. It was crazy. And then I got... I managed to get, get my first novel published with Bookouture, and that was a two-book deal, so then I had to quickly write another one in six months. Oh, my God. But I did that, too. And it's amazing what you can do- Yeah if you learn the tools and you learn to trust- Mm the process, and you learn to say to yourself, y- just because you can't do it, doesn't... haven't done it, and you don't think you can do it, doesn't mean you can't do it. Mm. You probably can do it. Just, you know, learn how to do it. So it was like that growth mindset my teachers were telling my kids at school, you know? "Can't do it yet- but you might be able, be able to in the future if you learn." And

Tina Strachan 51:48

at any age, right? It doesn't matter.

Sarah Clutton 51:50

Any age. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and then I really wanted to get a, a traditional deal after that. And so then I worked and worked and worked and worked, and did another course, and did this and did that, and eventually I got there. Yay.

Tina Strachan 52:03

Well, you certainly did. Um, and congratulations. Um, The Bookshop of Buried Past, congratulations on it, uh, being launched. It's very exciting. And yeah- Really exciting it's clearly all worked very well for you. Um- Can't tell that you can't remember things at all.

Sarah Clutton 52:19

Oh, thank... Oh. Well, I didn't remember that you hadn't that, you know, you and I hadn't actually quite sorted out our link this morning, so that was a momentary panic. Uh, but yeah.

Tina Strachan 52:29

See? We get there in the end. It's totally okay.

Sarah Clutton 52:33

Thank you so much for having me, and, um, hopefully I'll, um... I'm looking forward to, um, listening to more of your amazing podcasts.

Tina Strachan 52:41

Aw, thank you. Thanks so much for coming on. It was so great to chat to you. Bye, Sarah.

Sarah Clutton 52:45

Okay. Bye, Tina. Thanks for having me.

Tina Strachan 52:50

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