Jessie Tu on writing real characters, obsession with older women and being seen as an author

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Transcript

Natasha Rai 0:56

Jessie Tu is a journalist for Women's Agenda. Her debut novel, A Lonely Girl Is a Dangerous Thing, won the ABIA 2020 Literary Fiction Book of the Year. The Honey Eater is her second novel Hey, Jessie Tu. Welcome to the Book Deal podcast.

Jessie Tu 1:12

Hi, thanks for having me.

Natasha Rai 1:13

Oh, my pleasure. It's been a while since we've had a chat.

Jessie Tu 1:16

Yeah, yeah.

Natasha Rai 1:18

Um, so we always start our episodes to inviting our guests to give us an elevator pitch for their novel. So your latest novel that's out is The Honey Eater. So could I please have your elevator pitch for that, Jessie?

Jessie Tu 1:34

Sure. It's, uh My elevator pitch would be a young Asian Australian translator has a very intense falling out with her mentor

Natasha Rai 1:49

Oh, okay, good. That's it. Intriguing. Um, so I read it when it first came out. Um, I was at your launch actually in Sydney. Um, and I loved it. And actually I have some questions that I'll, I'll have to ask you offline because it'll be spoilers. Um, how long did it take you to write it?

Jessie Tu 2:13

I'd say from the big- very beginning, the first draft to it coming out in booksho- bigs- bookstores, three, three and a half

Natasha Rai 2:26

Years? Years, yeah, yeah.

Jessie Tu 2:27

Mm.

Natasha Rai 2:27

And what's your process? Like, did you start, take a break from it, edit? Like, what, what How did you... Yeah, how did you do it?

Jessie Tu 2:36

Yeah, so this one, like every book, they're so different. I really don't have a, a routine when it comes to creating a new book. I think every new idea or book comes along in its own way, and this one really started from travel diaries that I took while I was overseas. Because, yeah, because the book is in three sections. One of the sections that kicks off the book is set in Paris, and I did take a trip with my mum, like the protagonist does, with my mum, um, to Paris, uh, several years ago. And I It actually maybe even started off, like, as wanting to be a sort of travel memoir. Like, I wanted to process some deep feelings I had, complicated feelings I had, uh, while I was on that trip. Uh, but I think it w- it became It was a It was so- sort of plotless, and so I just took those memories that I had and then put a really, some intense plotting, and I made the characters, you know, have high... I raised the stakes, um, gave them more interesting lives than I did, than I do. And, um, and then really I remember even working on it during COVID, I really just set myself the task of writing 1,000 words a day, because I know that, uh, the initial draft was, like, 30,000 words, and I needed to increase that obviously, you know?

Natasha Rai 4:03

Mm.

Jessie Tu 4:03

Um, and so I just made myself pump out 1,000 words a day, um, which I never do. Like, that's not how I generally work. Uh, but for this story, that's how it, how, that's how the genesis evolved.

Natasha Rai 4:16

And on the days you couldn't get there, did you just kind of keep pushing, or were you

Jessie Tu 4:20

like, "I'll try-" Yeah, I did. Okay. Yeah, I did, Tash. I just- Mm. And, and the thing with pushing is, like, I just had to say, "Okay, it doesn't matter if this is crap." And obviously 75% of it is crap, but Maybe even 95%, but you do it because there's that possibility of, you know, gems inside all of that crap.

Natasha Rai 4:41

Yeah. And you, at the time you were writing it, did you have a publishing deadline, or were you writing it because you just wanted to write it?

Jessie Tu 4:47

Yeah, the latter. Yeah.

Natasha Rai 4:48

Mm. Um, so one of the things I've noticed about you, 'cause you've got two novels. Um, your first one is A Lonely Girl Is A Dangerous Thing. Excellent, excellent title. Did you come up with that?

Jessie Tu 5:00

Yes, I did. Yeah.

Natasha Rai 5:01

It's such a good title.

Jessie Tu 5:03

Oh, thank you.

Natasha Rai 5:04

How did Like, w- w- was it, like, just something that came to you as you were writing, or did you always know that was gonna be the title?

Jessie Tu 5:10

Oh, I think I definitely It came out It, it was inspired by, um, Eimear McBride's, uh- uh, Girl is a Half-Formed Thing. You know that title? Yes. Yes, I do. Yeah. So I, I thought that was such a, there's a nice rhythm to that-

Natasha Rai 5:23

Mm

Jessie Tu 5:24

to that title, and then I just kind of expanded on that really.

Natasha Rai 5:28

I lo- oh my God, I love that book so much. So I was re- I read it, I think very, very fast. I had to keep telling myself to calm down and slow down because it was so propulsive. Um, and h- the character's name is Jenna, and, um, I remember sitting in a park in Sydney before going into training and reading a section and then like sobbing while this person, who was I think a rough sleeper, was just staring at me- while I was just sobbing. And I'm like, "Okay, I shouldn't be sobbing here because, you know, this person probably doesn't have anywhere to sleep, and here I am sobbing over this- girl." Anyway, um, but I think one of the things that struck me about both your novels is, um, how beautifully you write relationships, um, especially the mother-daughter relationship. Like, there's just so much in it that fascinates me in terms of like the kind of push and pull between the mother and daughter, and how much love there is, and also I guess, I don't know if hatred is too strong a word- Oh,

Jessie Tu 6:33

I don't think it's strong. I think it's accurate.

Natasha Rai 6:35

Yeah. But it, there's both in that very kind of, I don't know, I think if anyone's ever had a mother- Yeah or has had that relationship dynamic, like there are times you like really, really dislike each other, um, and you find it difficult to figure out what you like about each other, and it just felt so- Natural is not the right word, but realistic, like that dynamic of, um, that push and pull. And, and you've spoken pretty openly about that dynamic yourself. So how do you... Like, is that always, like, your starting point, or do you suddenly realize as you're writing that there's a mother-daughter relationship that you want to explore, or is that just something you're working through? Like how does, how does that go for you?

Jessie Tu 7:20

Do you know what? I'm very much the firm believer that when you sit down to write as a creative or you sit down to paint as an artist, whatever, um, whatever you're deeply interested in will just come out. You can't help it. And, um, every single story that I've sat down to write somehow always there, there's always a mother that springs up, and I think th- it just must be that because, um, I've had such intense, uh, complicated feelings that are perhaps still unresolved between my mother and I, even though I've had 20 years of therapy, and you know, my mother and I are at a place where we're incredibly healthy. I call her every day. But that hasn't always been the case. Like, um, I, like, I was a voracious diary keeper in my... I still keep a diary, and, um, in my teenage years, I'd say, like, um, the, the, the high school years, the six or five, five, six years of high school, I filled in 20 notebooks of diaries, and I'd say to you, Tash, that 18 of them were just full of like swearing at my mother. Like, I'm not ki- I'm not kidding you. They're, they're like violently, vehemently like, "I hate my mom." Like it's just really violent teenage, um-

Natasha Rai 8:33

Mm-hmm

Jessie Tu 8:33

feelings.

Natasha Rai 8:33

Mm-hmm.

Jessie Tu 8:34

Um, and yeah, it's because like, I think all women have complicated relationships with their mothers. I think you can't, um... And, um, I, I thought, like I, I'd, I would love to know other people's opinions about this, but I think it's because like, um, the, you know, you and I, even like our mother's generation, they had a lot of opportunities that we don't. You know, every generation- Mm of women's rights are constantly shifting, and so it's only natural that, um, that the, that the relationship between two women in the same family who have been, you know, um, raised in the same, sort of like the lineage of that in, in a sort of societal way, it just, um, one... When they live together in the same household, it's just t- bound to be tension and friction- Mm because just of the way the con- world continues to ha- uh, treat women

Natasha Rai 9:32

Yeah, and, and I was just thinking about my own mom, and part of my dynamic with her was, like, you know, she was a migrant to this country and, um, that kind of real tension between, like, what she- what was familiar for her growing up as a teenager and then a young adult and then a, and then a young woman compared to, like, my experiences, and that kind of constant tension of me having this judgment about, well, I know that I can go to this party and be safe, but for her, that was such a weird-

Jessie Tu 10:06

Mm

Natasha Rai 10:07

difficult concept. And then that kind of... But also it- because of maybe- and I'm talking very specifically about me, I'm not making any kind of sweeping statements about cultural identity, but in, in my situation, like, we just didn't have language to kind of do that together. Like, tell me... Like, I didn't even know how to say to her, like, not that I would as a freaking 16-year-old, but like, "What are you scared about?" Yeah. Like, "Tell me about it," you know?

Jessie Tu 10:30

Uh-huh.

Natasha Rai 10:30

I could now, but I don't know. Like, I think maybe for me that was also a dynamic, the cultural differences.

Jessie Tu 10:37

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, everything you're saying mirrors my own experience. Absolutely. And also, like, you and I, we don't just have that intergen- intergenerational, um, friction, we also have the intercultural, like, you know, different cultures clashing-

Natasha Rai 10:53

Yeah

Jessie Tu 10:53

between our parents and I, um, between our parents and ourselves. And yeah, there, there is, like, even there was just no language, yeah, like you say. Um, and I think that the, the idea of, um- emotionally expressing your needs and wants and desires. Like, it just was not, it's not a thing-

Natasha Rai 11:14

I know. I'm laughing- Um, in our household not because I'm laughing at you, but just the thought of that, like emotional- Yeah expression.

Jessie Tu 11:19

Yeah.

Natasha Rai 11:19

It's just like, what is that?

Jessie Tu 11:20

Yeah. Also, um, my, because my parents grew up, you know, with very, very kind of, um... Like my grandfather, for instance, my father's dad, he starved during the Chinese Civil War. And so for my dad, um, the, just the fact that we were fed meant that he was the best dad in the world. Like in his eyes, you know? Yes, yes. And so like, yeah, yeah, I, I, I like the, the, the idea that we had in- internal emotional lives did not even cross his mind because he didn't, like, he didn't, he wasn't raised that way. Like, he didn't have parents who cared for his emotional wellbeing.

Natasha Rai 11:58

Mm-hmm.

Jessie Tu 11:58

Because it's like, as long as I fed you and clothed you and housed you, I'm a great father, according to them.

Natasha Rai 12:03

Yeah, exactly. But also, like, you know what strikes me about your characters specifically? That the rebellion and the kind of pushing away of, becomes almost part of the character's worldview. Like both Faye and Jenna are like, they are despite their mothers almost. Like, maybe I'm just reading it too deeply, but, um, do you know what I mean by that? Like, it just felt- I do yeah. And so even like with Faye's relationship with her mentor, it was all this kind of unspoken, um, comparisons between, "Well, you're like this with me, and my mother is like this." And, and I'm just curious about characters who are so shaped by relationship because, you know, so many people are shaped by their environments and their experiences, but these characters are really shaped by this primary relationship, which I thought was really interesting as a reader.

Jessie Tu 12:56

Yeah.

Natasha Rai 12:56

Mm.

Jessie Tu 12:57

I, I think also because I'm obsessed with women, like I'm obsessed with other women, especially older women- Mm because ultimately- Oh my God,

Natasha Rai 13:07

I used to be as well. I still think I still am.

Jessie Tu 13:09

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because like ultimately they're the, the... Like when I, when I- I have this thing, like when I go out in public and I see an old woman walking on the street or if I see an older woman, an elderly wo- woman, like, um, having coffee by herself or whatever, like I always notice older woman, women, um, because I'm like, "That'll be me." Like I, I... They, they are literally the embodiment of hopefully if I get to grow old, um, they're, they're the embodiment of the life that I will one day have.

Natasha Rai 13:45

Mm-hmm. Mm.

Jessie Tu 13:46

And so I want to understand them, and I wanna get to know them and, um, I want them to teach me something.

Natasha Rai 13:53

Mm. So you're really interested in their kind of, what they have figured out about themselves- Yeah, I think

Jessie Tu 13:59

so and the world? Yeah. Yeah. I think in my 20s especially, I was like a, I had a lot of really old female friends-

Natasha Rai 14:07

Oh my God, me

Jessie Tu 14:07

too because, yeah. Yeah, and it wasn't like some quirk, like weird kinky quirk thing, like I wouldn't, you know, go out, go to out of my way to like befriend them. It's just, um, I was drawn to them and I wanted to spend time with them because I think I had this really perhaps naive view that the more they taught me about the mistakes they made in their lives, the l- the more I could learn from them and then not make the mistakes myself, you know? I mean, obviously- Oh,

Natasha Rai 14:38

yeah,

Jessie Tu 14:38

yeah obviously that's like a weird way to live, but I genuinely was like, "Oh, you know, um, I could learn from these women." And I think by osmosis, like I was a teacher for many years before I w- started writing books. Mm. And, um, as a teacher, you're surrounded by a lot of women, especially a lot of older women, right? Like, I was in, I was a teacher in my 20s, so I was often the youngest person in a staff room.

Natasha Rai 15:04

Mm.

Jessie Tu 15:05

And, um, the thing that I constantly picked up- from, um, older women was, like, what the kind of, the kind of, what a good man looks like and what a good- what a bad man looks like. Like- Oh 'cause, um, I remember in the staffroom, like, teachers loved to gossip. Mm-hmm. They loved to talk about their private lives, and I remember being especially drawn to women who were divorced because they had the best advice about what kind of m- men to avoid.

Natasha Rai 15:37

Did you, do you remember all the advice still?

Jessie Tu 15:39

Oh, yeah. It was, like, the one, th- the one piece of most important advice that I think is, like, I wish I could tell every 25-year-old woman is don't for a, don't fall for a charming man.

Natasha Rai 15:52

Oh, that's good.

Jessie Tu 15:53

Like, charismatic men. Yeah. Yeah. Like charismatic men, I'm always very suspicious of charismatic men.

Natasha Rai 15:58

Is it because, like, they can spin the words but they don't follow it up with action?

Jessie Tu 16:01

Oh, it's, yeah. Like, I'm- That's- I'm s- I'm suspicious not just of charismatic men, I'm generally s- suspicious of anyone who's very well put-together and, like, performs well, is not awkward, you know, just someone who's very manicured in their speech. I, I am really suspicious of those kind of people.

Natasha Rai 16:19

Interesting. That's, um, I wanna talk to you more about that, but maybe offline. Um, so you were journaling all through your, um, like, I guess, adolescence. Were you also a reader?

Jessie Tu 16:33

Not, no, I, I'd say. Um, not, not as much, no. Um, I didn't grow up in a household of readers. Um, my parents were much more, like, practically-minded people.

Natasha Rai 16:47

Mm-hmm.

Jessie Tu 16:48

Um, we watched a lot of movies. I think that was my foray into storytelling. Oh. I watched a lot of movies. They're, movies are my first love.

Natasha Rai 16:58

Oh,

Jessie Tu 16:58

okay. Yeah, and I only started reading seriously in my, well into my 20s.

Natasha Rai 17:02

And what kind of inspired you to start or stick with it, reading-wise?

Jessie Tu 17:07

Oh, oh, reading. Mm-hmm. Um, I think my reading and my feminism very much came alive at the same time. So I was angry with the world, and feminism was a way to explain and help me give voice to all the things I was angry about.

Natasha Rai 17:23

Oh, okay. That's so interesting. And is that how you started writing about that? Or did

Jessie Tu 17:28

you- Yeah, I think, um, like I, I started reading a lot of women writers who wrote about their lives. Like, I was really into memoirs-

Natasha Rai 17:39

Mm-hmm

Jessie Tu 17:39

by women. Mm-hmm. Um, I read a lot of Deborah Levy. Like, Deborah Levy's autobiographical trilogy is, like, just a work of art that has completely helped me identify my own sort of desire or power that I want, the kind of woman that I want to aspire to be.

Natasha Rai 18:00

Mm-hmm.

Jessie Tu 18:03

And I think I was inspired to write because, because I read these female writers who saved me, like really, really saved me. Like when I say saved me, I literally mean, um, in my late 20s I was at a very low point in my life, um, like emotionally.

Natasha Rai 18:24

Mm.

Jessie Tu 18:25

And w- and then I read Olivia Laing's The Lonely City. Have you heard of that book?

Natasha Rai 18:30

No, I haven't. Uh,

Jessie Tu 18:31

how... Okay. So, um, it's a collection of essays, like a book, uh, about, uh, New York, sort of, uh, American artists-

Natasha Rai 18:41

Mm-hmm

Jessie Tu 18:41

who painted about loneliness. Um- Ooh so she has a chapter on David Wojnarowicz, um, on Andy Warhol, on Edward Hopper, um, and talks about the way in which they embodied loneliness and then they turned it into beautiful art. And that, and then she also, in the, in the book she, it's a collection of essays but it's also blends memoir, so she writes about her own, uh, her own, uh, feelings of loneliness while she was in New York. And I think I read it while I was in New York feeling extremely lonely, and there was just this one line where she says, like, um, she felt shame about being lonely that really, really healed something in me because I was like, "This is someone who has described exactly how I feel," and I felt less alone. Like, I was like, "Here's one woman who's, you know, clearly very intelligent," and she has also gone through an embarrassing breakup, um- Mm-hmm in sort of like later stage in her life. And like, you know, in hindsight you're like, "Oh my God, you were like 27. You're so young and stupid." But, uh, when I was that age I felt really old-

Natasha Rai 19:54

Yeah

Jessie Tu 19:54

and embarrassed for having a breakup, and just the fact that she had written about it made me feel less lonely. And I think I write because ultimately I just want to make one person feel less lonely.

Natasha Rai 20:06

Wow. That's pretty incredible. Um, and is that how you started writing Lonely Go?

Jessie Tu 20:15

Yeah, it must have been 'cause I started it when I was in New York, yeah, and feeling very lonely. And, um, I just had a lot I needed to get off my chest. Mm. So the first draft came out very quickly, and then, um, I think I was also nearing 30, and at that point in my life I was feeling like, "Okay, if I'm gonna write a book, I better do it now," 'cause I was so sick of hearing myself saying, "Oh, I'd like to write a book," and not doing anything about it.

Natasha Rai 20:44

So then when you started writing, like, h- how did it come together? Did you know the form? 'Cause it sounds like you were reading so many different types of things.

Jessie Tu 20:53

Yeah,

Natasha Rai 20:53

that's a good

Jessie Tu 20:53

question.

Natasha Rai 20:54

How, y- how did it come to be a novel?

Jessie Tu 20:56

So I, I turned it... I made it into a, a novel, like a fiction, because I wanted to make it ridiculous. Like, o- obviously I took my own life as a starting point because I was a violinist. Um, and, um, but then I was like, "I'll have more fun if I make this fiction." Yeah, so a lot of the events I describe in the book are just very exaggerated versions of stuff I went through. So I, like... Uh, the sort of parties that I went to in the inner west of Sydney and in New York and in Bushwick and all that, um, I just had experienced it myself, but then on the page I was like, "This will be so much fun if I create more characters that are a bit more ludicrous than, than j- not just myself, but the people I met."

Natasha Rai 21:43

Yeah.

Jessie Tu 21:43

So yeah, it really came up from, from a place of like, "I'll have more fun and have more liberties if I make this non... uh, b- if I make this fiction."

Natasha Rai 21:52

And at the time, what kind of work were you doing? Were you, were you doing, like, book-related work, or were you doing, like, random jobs or...?

Jessie Tu 21:59

Oh, I was a teacher.

Natasha Rai 22:00

Oh, you were still teaching then?

Jessie Tu 22:01

Yeah. Oh,

Natasha Rai 22:02

my God, you taught in New York?

Jessie Tu 22:04

No, I taught in Sydney.

Natasha Rai 22:05

Oh, I was gonna say. Yeah. That's brave. Um, so tell me what happened after you finished your draft. What, what did you do with it?

Jessie Tu 22:19

Sent it out to a couple of agents

Natasha Rai 22:22

Mm-hmm

Jessie Tu 22:23

after I, um, yeah, I, I, after I c- reached about 80,000 words, I was like, "Okay, this sounds like a... This length-wise is pretty normal for a novel." Um, and I got picked up by the agent that I represented the book, Melanie Austell. Um, it happened very fast, within, like, two months, I'd say, from the time I sent the email to me signing up with her. Um, yeah. Uh, we, we revised the manuscript a couple of times over- Mm-hmm a couple of months, uh, before she sent it out to publishers.

Natasha Rai 23:03

And were they big rewrites? Like, do you remember?

Jessie Tu 23:07

No, I don't think there were big rewrites. Um, I think a lot of it was structuring, to be honest. Okay. Okay. Yeah, because I had never written a book. I didn't, and I'd never... I, like, I was also not a huge novel reader, so I couldn't tell you, like, I couldn't say what... I had nothing, like, I had no idea how to pace a book. You know, the ups and downs, the troughs, the s- like, I didn't know any of that. I just had, like, a series of scenes where, like, something intense happened, something less intense happened. I had, like, dramatic dialogue, and then I had backstory. Like, it was just a matter of shaping, shaping the story and putting them into an order that was most compelling.

Natasha Rai 23:49

Wow, that's incredible that out of that, like, putting that together and using your instinct, you, you know,

Jessie Tu 23:56

you got picked up. Oh, well, I had really amazing, like Melanie is incredible, and I had, I also was lucky 'cause I had amazing editors look at it as well.

Natasha Rai 24:05

So once you started sending it out, like, did you... What kind of feedback were you getting from publishers?

Jessie Tu 24:11

It was mostly positive. Yeah, yeah. Um, I was like, like a l- in hindsight, uh, you know, I'm very grateful for the kind of positive reception I got immediately. Uh, but yeah, to be honest, I really just was not expecting... I didn't know what to expect, so I didn't expect anything. You know, obviously you put a work of art out in the world and you hope that someone would read it, you know? And, uh, I, I think as long as, um, I had, uh, as long as I knew that it was- being, um, funneled through people's hands, like people were reading it, then yeah, I was, I was happy. Like, I didn't need people to love the book. Wow. I just wanted people to read it

Natasha Rai 24:55

You're so chill. Like, that just sounds so healthy and, like, so good because, you know, like it's a very, um, what's the right word? Like, it's a, it's a terrifying time for a lot of write- like new writers and emerging writers when they send their work out and it's being, you know, read by either an agent or a publishing house, and it's like that wait is can be torturous. But y- you were like, "Oh, whatevs," like, "I'm just glad someone's reading it." That sounds amazing.

Jessie Tu 25:23

Well, yeah. Um, I think, I think I was pretty chill about it. Mm. I think. I don't know. Maybe I'm in just like a, another place at the moment, but

Natasha Rai 25:33

So did it, did you have like the writer's dream where s- more than one publisher wanted to publish it?

Jessie Tu 25:39

Yes, I did.

Natasha Rai 25:40

Oh, nice. Okay. So and how did you end up deciding on the publisher you, you went with?

Jessie Tu 25:46

Because of her track record. Yeah. Ah, okay She published a lot of, she's published a lot of authors that I admire, so yeah.

Natasha Rai 25:53

Okay

Jessie Tu 25:53

That w- was a pretty easy decision.

Natasha Rai 25:56

Okay. Well, that's, that's good because it, you know, I guess what you're talking about there, so I'm just making it specific for listeners who are thinking about this kind of stuff, like it sounds like for you it was about this person, this editor, this publisher understands the type of work I wanna b- put out there.

Jessie Tu 26:11

Yeah, exactly.

Natasha Rai 26:12

Yeah? Mm-hmm.

Jessie Tu 26:13

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lindsay Bartels 26:14

Hi, Book Deal Podcast listeners. Lindsay Bartels here, the author of Imogen in Waiting: A Memoir of Modern Reproduction, which came out on June 16th in English worldwide with the new women-centric small traditional publisher, Third Rail Press, out of the US. It is about my experience as a BRCA1 genetic mutation carrier and how when I found out I had this cancer-causing predisposition, I had this incredible opportunity to not pass it on to my children and their children by undergoing IVF. This was the only way my husband and I knew to prevent cancer for future generations, and we thought, "What a privilege and what a legacy to leave behind." But as it turned out, I came face to face with an embryo who was essentially just like me, a potential that was female and also had this cancer-causing gene. When I learn this information, I pause because I think I'm grateful for my life and would choose it every single time. And my parents, they didn't have this information, and they didn't have this choice, and thank goodness for that. So how do I make this choice? It's very challenging, and in order to remember it, to preserve it, to capture this experience, I tell my story about whether or not I bring this embryo into being to the embryo who I call Imogen. I hope it brings readers hope for a way forward, no matter what impossible decision in their own lives they might be facing, and it shows the way I become my own best advocate, how I learn to listen to my own inner truths and the development in my capacity as a woman, wife, and mother that I discover along the way. I hope you enjoy it.

Natasha Rai 28:03

And so how was that first publication experience after that? Like, was it a big whirlwind? Like, were you like, "This is so cool"? Was it torturous? Were you just like chill the whole way through, like, "Oh, yeah, cool"?

Jessie Tu 28:15

I thought it was a lot of fun. Like, I loved it. Mm. I really enjoyed that initi- like the, the publication and everything because I was learning. It was my first time.

Natasha Rai 28:26

Mm.

Jessie Tu 28:26

And it was also during COVID, so I didn't do any in-person events. I did online events, um, which was just like meant that I didn't have to worry so much about performing, which a- always takes a lot of energy out of me. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Like, you know, a- like appearing on a panel and, or just like standing, being in front of a- group, group of strangers is always going to be exhausting for me. Like, it's not necessarily, um, un- it's not necessarily, uh, n- unenjoyable- Mm but it's always in, uh, exhausting for me because, uh, I'm, I hate being perceived. Like, I hate, I hate being perceived. I hate, I just don't like being seen, you know? Like I'm happy to like write- Yeah and, you know, but like my, my f- my sort of like ultimate job is never to have to talk to anyone. I just like, like if I could write emails to people for the rest of my life-

Natasha Rai 29:27

You'd do that like,

Jessie Tu 29:28

yeah, yeah. And then I'll, and, and I'll just talk to like m- my friends and family, that's enough. But like anyone outside of that, like I feel like I have to be on.

Natasha Rai 29:36

Yeah. I, I, I know what you mean. Yeah. Um, so you got a... Was it a one-book deal or did they want more? Yeah, okay.

Jessie Tu 29:45

It was a one-book deal.

Natasha Rai 29:46

Okay. So, um, I... How long was it between Lonely Girl and The Honeyeater?

Jessie Tu 29:54

It was four years. Four years,

Natasha Rai 29:56

okay. Now I remember, I c- 'cause at your Sydney launch for The Honeyeater you, you were in conversation with Anna Walker-Crabb, right?

Jessie Tu 30:02

Uh-huh.

Natasha Rai 30:03

Yeah. Sorry, I'm not stalking you, I just remember this stuff. Um- No,

Jessie Tu 30:06

no, yeah.

Natasha Rai 30:07

Um, so I remember you said something about you had written something else-

Jessie Tu 30:13

Yeah

Natasha Rai 30:13

and you had shown it to a few people, and they were like, "This is not good."

Jessie Tu 30:17

Yeah.

Natasha Rai 30:18

So you shelved it, and then-

Jessie Tu 30:20

Mm.

Natasha Rai 30:21

So tell me more about that. Like, what happened? How do you know when something is working and something's not? You know, you've, you've written a few things now, so- Mm you've, like, like it's not like Lonely Girl where you were learning stuff still. Yeah. What's that like for you?

Jessie Tu 30:37

That, I think, was a manuscript that I wrote, um, where I was trying to be really experimental, but I really didn't land on a clear idea. So the manuscript ended up being, um, sort of slosh, sort of like gooey, um, gooey scrambled eggs or something. Like, it just didn't have a center.

Natasha Rai 31:04

Mm-hmm.

Jessie Tu 31:04

And I, I recently reread it and I w- 'cause I was hoping, hoping that I could go back and see something in it and maybe revive it.

Natasha Rai 31:13

Mm-hmm.

Jessie Tu 31:13

But, but, um, I didn't see anything in it that excited me. I think I wrote it- Oh very quickly, and I was interested in a s- it was, it was about a group of musicians who had this obsessive relationship with a conductor. And, um- And I think the question I was trying to answer, you know, six years ago no longer interests me now. And so- Mm-hmm that's how I decided that this book wasn't going to see the da- light of day, because I was like, "Um, I'm not curious about what the book was trying to be."

Natasha Rai 31:46

Mm.

Jessie Tu 31:47

And, and, and, and, and, and the project needs to at least have the artist be curious about the story.

Natasha Rai 31:54

Oh, for sure.

Jessie Tu 31:55

Yeah.

Natasha Rai 31:55

And, and if you're experimenting with form, is that something that kind of comes organically out of it because of what the questions you're asking, or is that something you go in going, "I really wanna try, I don't know, verse, or I really wanna try a fragmented point of view?" I don't know.

Jessie Tu 32:09

Yeah.

Natasha Rai 32:10

Mm.

Jessie Tu 32:11

Um, I think I was a bit too eager to try a different form, and then I didn't have a strong enough idea. I think that was the sort of error there.

Natasha Rai 32:23

Mm.

Jessie Tu 32:24

Yeah. But I think ultimately you need to have something interesting to say before you try and say it. But- Yeah I only wanted to play around with a different type of form, and I didn't really know what I was trying to say. I think, I think that's what-

Natasha Rai 32:38

Yeah,

Jessie Tu 32:39

yeah was the thing there.

Natasha Rai 32:40

Mm. Because I know that sometimes, you know, with emerging writers, if they're playing with form, like, the question that I've heard being asked is, why this? Why this vehicle, or why this expression? Like, what is it that you need to explore through that? So I was just curious about that.

Jessie Tu 32:55

Yeah.

Natasha Rai 32:56

Mm. Um, the things that... The two... The, the other thing that struck me about both your books are that I guess these women that you're writing about would be classified as difficult characters- Mm or difficult people, because, you know, they're quite prickly. But I love, I love, love, love reading books that have difficult or unlikable characters. Um- Do you set out to write someone like that, or is it just how it turns out?

Jessie Tu 33:25

I write myself on the page, and so I must be, like, a prickly person. Um, well-

Natasha Rai 33:32

I meant just, you

Jessie Tu 33:33

know,

Natasha Rai 33:33

in, in terms of conventional literature and what people might, when they read, you know. Like, these are not conventional people is what I'm saying. Like, they- Well,

Jessie Tu 33:43

first of all, they're Asian- Mm and I, like, rar- I don't read a lot of... Like, you don't... You know, in Australia, it's not the mainstream to read an Asian female character. So- True that's, you know, number one.

Natasha Rai 33:55

Mm.

Jessie Tu 33:56

And, um, I'm just interested in... I write the female... I'm wr- I write characters who I am curious about, and a woman who's compliant and has nothing interesting to say and doesn't voice her opinion just doesn't interest me.

Natasha Rai 34:11

Mm.

Jessie Tu 34:12

And so, yeah, I'm... I, I, I get really, like... F- it's so interesting when I hear about people casting judgment, um, on my characters because I'm like, "Wow, okay, so this is how..." It's just interesting how the way women on the page are interpreted because it makes me think about the way women are interpreted in society at large, you know? Yeah.

Natasha Rai 34:36

Yeah, I do. Yeah. And I think... And what I'm referring to as well is not just their opinions, but the kind of vulnerability and the rawness of their internal worlds, because you don't see that often with women. Right. Like, with women, like, you know, you can read, I don't know, some... I've- 'cause I read a lot, and books that ha- really have that interiority or that kind of very raw, uncensored almost, unfiltered-

Jessie Tu 35:03

Yeah

Natasha Rai 35:04

um, descriptions or just showing you what it's actually like to be inside this person- Uh-huh I really love that, because it's like I, I love the, when the character's on the page and they're doing something that if you didn't have the interiority, you'd be like, "Oh-

Jessie Tu 35:20

Right

Natasha Rai 35:20

that's bitchy," or, "That's mean," or, you know- Yeah that kind of typical way we describe women.

Jessie Tu 35:25

Yeah.

Natasha Rai 35:25

But when you have that interiority, it's like I get it. I get-

Jessie Tu 35:29

Yeah

Natasha Rai 35:29

I totally get how this person operates in this specific world and in their life.

Jessie Tu 35:35

Yeah.

Natasha Rai 35:35

And I love that because it feels to me that I can just really embrace someone like that in terms of understanding what's happening in a way that sometimes when you read something that's a bit more smooth or someone's a bit more kind of compliant, it's like, "And?" Mm. Like, some- some bad shit's happened to you. Like, and? Mm-hmm. Whereas it's like when there's, like, this kind of grossness or vulnerability or, like, some intensity, I'm like, "Yes, show me more of that." I get really excited- Yeah about

Jessie Tu 36:08

that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I completely agree

Natasha Rai 36:11

So, and, and I think because as you said, as women come across on the page, it's just they seem difficult in some way. 'Cause I- my character from my debut novel was... A few people are like, "She's so difficult. I really didn't like her." And I'm like, "Oh, interesting. Okay." Yeah, because I was, I was- Yeah, doesn't... And,

Jessie Tu 36:31

and then doesn't that tell you something about that person who says that?

Natasha Rai 36:35

That tells me something about the types of books that are out there, and how, and how the, a lot of women are portrayed, uh, in, in books, and how s- women that have a bit more, um, maybe a character. I'm talking about women that have a bit more realness to them somehow, or that kind of, you know, messiness of life. Like, you know, women fart, and they do things like that. Yeah. And they sweat. Yeah. And they- Yeah and they have sex drives, and they vomit, and all of that grossness of life. Not that sex drive is gross, but you know what I mean. When you, when you see that on the... like a real person on the page, for some reason f- it seems to me that women are just... Women, female characters are like, "Ugh," like, "Ugh, I don't wanna, I don't wanna know about that," you know?

Jessie Tu 37:18

Yeah.

Natasha Rai 37:19

Sorry, that was a very long-winded, um, comment, but I just... I, I really love how you do that, is what I'm saying, that they really speak to me of something very real.

Jessie Tu 37:30

Oh, thank you. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I think I just, because I want, I want to see that. I wanna see more of that in the world.

Natasha Rai 37:37

Yeah, me

Jessie Tu 37:38

too. I hate, I hate opacity. I hate opaque... I hate opaqueness.

Natasha Rai 37:43

Mm.

Jessie Tu 37:43

Like, and I hate it in my daily life. Like, if I meet a person and they're, like, reserved and they don't give me much, like, I'm immediately like, "Okay, I'm not, I'm not gonna be curious about you, because you're not giving me anything." Like- Yeah I like really transparent people.

Natasha Rai 37:58

Mm.

Jessie Tu 37:59

Because- Yeah ultimately, the conversations I've had with people who are transparent, they make me feel less lonely. You know? Like- Mm when they open up about, say, just, like, quotidian marriage struggles, I'm like, "Oh, okay. That's normal."

Natasha Rai 38:16

Yeah. Yeah. Yes, 'cause it's that shared life experience, right? Of, oh, okay- Yeah I'm not alone in this, and I'm not suffering on my own. Yeah,

Jessie Tu 38:24

yeah.

Natasha Rai 38:24

Yeah. Um, so you also work as a book critic, right? How does that shape or inform what, how you write, if at all?

Jessie Tu 38:36

I realized the other day that I've been reviewing since 2020.

Natasha Rai 38:41

Mm-hmm.

Jessie Tu 38:42

So yeah, six years. Mm-hmm. And, um, it must have, it really must have had some impact if I think about it. I don't, I don't consciously think about how it changes me, only because, like, that's not my full-time job. You know, I do... Um, I've cut back on it since having a child, but I used to do two reviews a month, so like, you know, um, it was a good pace. But I think it made me, uh, just, uh- I think the questions I ask myself when I, when I write, sit down to write, maybe it's changed.

Natasha Rai 39:21

Oh.

Jessie Tu 39:22

And maybe because I was reviewing other people, I got a bit stricter with myself as well

Natasha Rai 39:31

How?

Jessie Tu 39:33

Um, I would, like, read my own work and s- say to myself, "Am I getting bored?" And because, because the metric I sort of used in assessing other people's work was like, "Am I enjoying this? Am I having a good time?" Or, um, "Is the, is the, uh, writer doing anything interesting on the page?" And for me, when I sit down to write, maybe I started asking those questions myself, and I think that can sometimes be a hindrance because when... I... When... The ultimate state to write in is to write without thinking about the audience as well. Like, in my opinion.

Natasha Rai 40:15

Mm-hmm.

Jessie Tu 40:15

Um, obviously for other things it's different. Like, I think, um, I think if you were writing for comedy, you know, you have to think about the audience, obviously. But, uh, for novels, at least the, the novels that I try and write, I don't wanna think about the audience because ultimately I just wanna think about what I'm trying to do and whether or not I'm succeeding in what I'm trying to do.

Natasha Rai 40:40

Yeah, I like that. I res- I, I agree with you 'cause I also write for myself primarily first.

Jessie Tu 40:46

Yeah.

Natasha Rai 40:46

Like, I don't ever have anyone in mind.

Jessie Tu 40:49

Yeah, yeah. I agree. I mean- It's

Natasha Rai 40:51

so freeing. Yeah.

Jessie Tu 40:51

It is. Exactly. Mm-hmm. 'Cause, like, where, where else in your life are you completely unaccountable to someone, you know?

Natasha Rai 40:57

Exactly, yeah. And you can totally be as crazy as you want in your own mind, on your own page. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Jessie Tu 41:02

Yeah,

Natasha Rai 41:03

yeah. Mm-hmm. S- so being a new parent and having all of, you know, life commitments on top, how... what does your writing practice or routine look like now?

Jessie Tu 41:17

Non-existent.

Natasha Rai 41:19

Okay.

Jessie Tu 41:20

I think I get 10 minutes to write in my diary every night. Mm-hmm. That is, that is all I... That is the best I can hope for. Okay. Honestly- Mm-hmm I, I get so much joy from having that 10 minutes to myself at the end of the night- Mm while my partner puts her to bed, and I get to just, uh, write, like, kind of what you said before, write whatever I f- feel like and- Mm and it's so freeing. I, and, and, and it just makes me, um, reminds me that I have an internal world of my own that I get to- Mm jump into. It's really great

Natasha Rai 41:55

Does it worry you, like not having as much time as you used to right now?

Jessie Tu 41:58

Oh, totally. Oh, yeah, totally. Okay, yeah. Of course. Yeah, um, I, I do worry because I don't want to be forgotten, you know? Like, I, I still want people to look forward to my books, and if, if it's like 10 years before my next one, then inevitably I will, you know, um, fade from people's public consciousness, and, uh, I don't want to do that. You know, I wish I had something coming out, but, but, um, life circumstances, you know, just priorities. It's just, it's just a state... It's just a season in my life where I'm taking a back step- Mm from, uh, you know, um, making kind of public, um, work.

Natasha Rai 42:40

Mm.

Jessie Tu 42:40

But, but privately I'm like still as eager as ever to, to d- to make work. Yeah.

Natasha Rai 42:49

Mm. And, and I like how you said that, it's a season.

Jessie Tu 42:53

Yeah, yeah. Mm. Mm. And, and you know, I really hate, I really hate and resent, um, the jump back. What, what, what do they, what do the women call it? Um, sort of snap back into, um, work mode after having a baby. Oh. There's a term. What was that? See, I, I, I, I don't even know, um, because I'm so offline these days, and like intentionally, intentionally. I absolutely resent being online, and I haven't been on Instagram for weeks, like months, and I- that's also very intentional, and I love not having to perform online or to be online.

Natasha Rai 43:29

Mm.

Jessie Tu 43:29

But, um, I hate the, um, expectation that women are rewarded if they, um, get back to their former selves in terms of productivity pre-baby, and I'm like n-I really wanna, I really want to work against that. Mm-hmm. Like, I want to take my life slow, you know? Um, all, and all this chat about AI and convenience of technology and all that, I hate the valuing of convenience these days. I hate that convenience and productivity are rewarded. Like, I, I wanna take my life really slow. Like, ob-obviously I would love to have a book published, you know, every year if I could, but, but then a part of me is like, no, actually, like, it's okay- Mm-hmm to, to move slowly through the world because it feels more, I just think it- aligns m- more healthily with my own values

Natasha Rai 44:27

Yeah. And also, like, it's such a dumb thing that we've set up. Like, society wants us to value family, but then there's not enough time to be with family. Like, you can't really work, as you said, like you used to, and have a child and give that child attention and care-

Jessie Tu 44:43

Yeah that

Natasha Rai 44:44

the child deserves Yeah,

Jessie Tu 44:45

exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Natasha Rai 44:46

Like, the two don't go together.

Jessie Tu 44:47

Yeah, exactly. It's completely incompatible. Yeah.

Natasha Rai 44:50

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I am aware that you have to go, but so the final question I have is, um, do you have any top tips for emerging and aspiring authors?

Jessie Tu 45:04

The best tip I'd say is, um, to keep Working. Like I said, this sounds like I'm contradicting myself from what I said before, but what I mean by working is, like, keep doing what you love and keep trying. Like, perseverance, basically. Like, keep going at it. Yeah, yeah. Um, whatever you're trying to do, uh, just keep at it, and you have to be your number one cheerleader. Like, no one else is... Like, I'm some- I, I, I'm writing something at the moment where, like, I'm trying to process how difficult it is for me to do the work of creatively writing novels while also being a full-time mom. Um, and there's a line in there where I say, um, "The baby needs me, the book doesn't." Like- Mm when you have a crying baby, of course you gotta tend to the baby, but the book will always be there, and it, it won't, it, it, like, the book will not... Nothing will happen to the book if you don't tend to it, you know? So if you want to make work, just keep working on it. Just keep at it, because, um, no one else, you're n- no one else is going to force you to do it. Like, you have to be the one to want to make that into something, and then to share it with the world. Mm. Just like, yeah, back yourself, basically.

Natasha Rai 46:35

Yeah. I like it.

Jessie Tu 46:36

You have to back yourself.

Natasha Rai 46:37

Yes. I love it. Um, thank you so much. That was, that was so amazing. Um, I wish I could talk to you for another hour just about difficult women. Um, but that's a chat for another time. Thank you so much.

Jessie Tu 46:51

Thanks, Tash.

Tina Strachan 46:52

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