The Book Deal

Kayte Nunn on writing bestselling fiction across genres and publishers

• Tina Strachan • Season 1 • Episode 92

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Kayte Nunn is the bestselling author of nine novels, including The Botanist’s Daughter, The Forgotten Letters of Esther Durrant, The Silk House and The Last Reunion. Kayte grew up in England and the US, before moving to Australia. She has had a diverse career working in publishing, editing, and magazines, including as the former editor of Gourmet Traveller WINE magazine.

Madeleine chats with Kayte about writing the book that calls to you, how to be disciplined and resilient, switching lanes and genres (even when you are a bestseller and have a 'brand', and lots of tips for good routines and writing. And of course we discuss Kayte's latest twisty new novel, The Yacht,  a page-turning crime thriller set on a superyacht in Mallorca.

*

THE YACHT

A man on the edge.

A woman hell-bent on revenge.

A cheating husband.

A desperate wife.

A property empire on the brink of collapse.

A family at loggerheads.

A predator hiding in plain sight.

Who will sink and who will swim?

Three generations of a billionaire family are taking their new superyacht on its maiden voyage. But when the yacht sinks, each of them has a different part to play, in this addictive, twist-filled thriller.

Check out The Yacht here.

*

Kayte recommends reading The Emotional Craft of Fiction: How to Write the Story Beneath the Surface by Donald Maass. 

Our Debut in the Spotlight this week is The Picasso Ransom by A.T Prewett.

Thank you to HarperCollins Australia for sponsoring this episode.

Join our Patreon community for less than the cost of a coffee per month and support the pod! Your contribution will go to directly paying our sound producer, Brogan, and to help us bring you the conversations with industry professionals you love.

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The Book Deal Podcast Where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books.

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We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals, to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal.

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So no matter what stage of writing you're at, we've got you covered. I'm Tina Strachan.

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I'm Madeleine Cleary.

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And I'm Natasha Rai.

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And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors.

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One deal at a time. The Book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters which it's recorded on, and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.

Speaker 7

Hi, it's Madeleine here. Today, I'm chatting with bestselling author Kayte Nunn. Kayte grew up in England and the US before moving to Australia. She's had a diverse career working in publishing, editing, and magazines before turning her hand to writing fiction. Kayte is now the author of nine novels, including her latest, The Yacht, a page-turning crime thriller set on a super yacht in Majorca. I chat with Kayte about writing the book that calls to you, how to be disciplined and resilient, and what success looks like when you are a prolific and bestselling author like Kayte. A big thank you to Harper Collins Australia for sponsoring this episode.

Madeleine Cleary

Kayte

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Nunn, welcome to The Book Deal Podcast.

Kayte Nunn

Thank you for having me, Madeleine. I'm happy to talk to you today

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I'm very interested to hear about your journey to becoming a writer. Um, I understand you worked in publishing for many

Madeleine Cleary

years.

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So during this time I'm interested to know, were you always holding onto the dream of publishing your own writing? Um,

Kayte Nunn

not in the slightest actually. I thought people far cleverer than me wrote books. Um, and I never imagined I could sustain a whole story for

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to 90,000 words and, and

Kayte Nunn

keep it in my head

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and

Kayte Nunn

have enough happen. Um, no, so I, I did a publishing degree, and then I worked in book publishing and for a literary agency for a while. Um, but interestingly, I was always in search of doing more writing, but it was mainly nonfiction. And so I ended up working in magazines after I moved from book publishing to magazines where I could do more writing as a features writer. And that was the bit I really enjoyed. But I only came to

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fiction

Kayte Nunn

relatively late. I was in my mid-40s. Um, and it became a case of now or never. And a woman came up to me in the playground, a friend of mine, and she said, "I've written a book and I've, I've got a publisher." And I was like, "Oh my God, no, that's my dream." And of course, I was delighted for her, but it, it was also kind of quite galling and, and then it made me think, you know, it gave me permission, which was really good. It's like, well, you know, if she can do it, why can't you, Kayte? And come on, stop

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and

Kayte Nunn

do

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about

Kayte Nunn

it. And then when I actually did start thinking about it... And I'd, I'd had little bits

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ideas

Kayte Nunn

for stories over the years and made notes and, you know, there'd always been something in the background going on.

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Um,

Kayte Nunn

but I had about six weeks, I was working as a freelance editor, and I had six weeks between jobs, and I purposefully didn't take any work and thought, "Right, I'll give it these six weeks and see how I go." And the thing I actually found I really loved was the feeling of having written. So at the end of every day, I had moved my story along a bit. Um, it was quite painful then looking back. Um, it's a bit like when you first learn to run, you know, it really hurts and, and, you know, even a couple of kilometers feels like a major effort. And now, of course, the words

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much

Kayte Nunn

more easily, but the ideas maybe not as, not as easily. Um, the, the ideas have always, you know, that's always the, the most challenging part for

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me is, is- Really? fashioning that story. That's, that's interesting. Why, why do

Madeleine Cleary

you think that?

Kayte Nunn

Um, just because, uh, I think readers are becoming increasingly

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and

Kayte Nunn

demanding more and more from books, um, and they really, they want, really want great characterization. They want to be convinced, particularly now that I'm writing kind of closed circle murder mysteries. Um, they want to not be able to guess who did it, but in the same time, they don't want to feel cheated, um, by, by, um, you know, you, you can't pull a fast one at the last minute. So I think coming up with that kind of structural idea, um, is, is the challenge. And I, you know, I'm, I kind of always make things harder for myself, I think. Uh, I, yeah, I

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don't

Kayte Nunn

ever... I always want to write a better book

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Mm, mm. Well, I think we all do,

Madeleine Cleary

don't we? No, that's really, really interesting. So, I

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how did you go, though, from, you know,

Madeleine Cleary

questioning yourself

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the start, going, "How can I keep 80 to thou- 90,000 words in a cohesive novel?" Yeah. Um, "I'm not sure how I can

Madeleine Cleary

do that," to actually sitting down at

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desk every day writing? Um,

Kayte Nunn

I think it

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I

Kayte Nunn

was just telling myself a story, and I could kind of picture it like

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movie

Kayte Nunn

in my head,

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and it was just writing

Kayte Nunn

to see what happened. Um, and,

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and after the

Kayte Nunn

first six weeks, I didn't have a lot of words, but I kept going with it.

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I

Kayte Nunn

kept returning to it. I would, you know, carve out time.

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I had two

Kayte Nunn

young daughters at the time, so on the weekends

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husband

Kayte Nunn

would

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them maybe to the movies, and I'd go

Kayte Nunn

to the library next door and spend a couple of hours writing.

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I'd go to bed

Kayte Nunn

at night

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and, uh...

Kayte Nunn

'cause

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couldn't

Kayte Nunn

work, uh, really early in

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morning. I'd go to bed at

Kayte Nunn

night and promise myself I'd just do 500 words before I

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asleep. So it's just

Kayte Nunn

kind

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inching

Kayte Nunn

the story along until I had a really rough draft. Um, but at the time I didn't know what I

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know. I really knew very little about

Kayte Nunn

how

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tell a story. Um, and I,

Kayte Nunn

I, yeah, I learnt

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of on the

Kayte Nunn

job and with good advice from people, and I did creative

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workshops,

Kayte Nunn

just day workshops and things like that, that,

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taught me

Kayte Nunn

more, and I began to read craft books.

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And so

Kayte Nunn

slowly, slowly I kind of built up the knowledge, um, of how to write

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And so was the draft you were working on, was that, um, your debut novel? Was that Rose's Message? It was. Yeah? Yes.

Kayte Nunn

yes, it was.

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and

Kayte Nunn

when I'd finished... And I, you know, it was still in a very raw state, not that I knew that. Um, and I sent it out to various agents and my, um, the ag- the woman who became my agent rang me,

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and we had about

Kayte Nunn

a 45-minute conversation. She told me everything

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I

Kayte Nunn

needed to change about the manuscript,

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And then she simply- But how wonderful that she- Yeah. she called you. Oh, I know. That's awesome.

Kayte Nunn

Yeah.

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She was

Kayte Nunn

really good. I really, really am so grateful for that input. Um, and so sh- then she said, "Well, you don't seem phased

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that,

Kayte Nunn

so do that and come back to me and then

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see how we

Kayte Nunn

go." And I did, and made all the changes. And I'm, you know, I've worked as a professional writer for a long time, so that,

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that whole idea of

Kayte Nunn

10,000 hours of practice comes in, I think. I, you know, I

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I could

Kayte Nunn

string a sentence together.

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I

Kayte Nunn

knew h- um, I wasn't precious about my work. I, I, I knew that you had to

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back and

Kayte Nunn

back again.

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Um,

Kayte Nunn

and so I did all that, and then she sent it on submission sort of bit by bit. Um, and it probably took nearly a year before it was published. So I mean, a lot of people say they never, you know, they have bottom drawer novels.

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Um, I don't have that, but

Kayte Nunn

it did... It wasn't a, you know, an immediate path

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publication

Kayte Nunn

by any means. Um,

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I did

Kayte Nunn

what the only thing I could do

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in

Kayte Nunn

that sense, and I started writing another novel. And I think I just like

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process,

Kayte Nunn

and at the end of the day, if you don't enjoy the process, and it can be hard sometimes,

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um,

Kayte Nunn

there's really not a lot of point in sticking with it 'cause it's, it's really tough

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Mm, mm. So how many years did it

Madeleine Cleary

take then from the moment

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you heard from your friend when she got

Madeleine Cleary

a book deal

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actually having Rose's Vintage published? Probably, probably

Kayte Nunn

about two or three years.

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Yeah. Wow, that's pretty quick.

Madeleine Cleary

That's pretty k-

Kayte Nunn

I know. It

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seem like a long

Kayte Nunn

time at

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time, but

Kayte Nunn

in the overall scheme of things,

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that's

Kayte Nunn

not

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bad. Yes. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah. And it is

Kayte Nunn

it's an absolute marathon. And interestingly enough, I was training for a marathon at

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time I was writing. And it was just like,

Kayte Nunn

I didn't look too far ahead. you know? You just do what

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got to

Kayte Nunn

do that day. You do what you've got to do on the training program. You go, "Right, yes, I've gotta write 1,000 words today. I'm getting

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done." Um,

Kayte Nunn

and you try not to think too far into

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future, because otherwise it seems insurmountable. Mm. I think there's some really good points there, and I think, like, giving

Madeleine Cleary

yourself that time to

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able to sit down and do it as well, carving that out of your day when you're busy. You've got day jobs, you've got family. But you have to, you know, giving yourself- But yeah and really validating yourself. That saying, "Yes, I can do this." Yeah. Particularly when you are an emerging writer and you

Madeleine Cleary

don't have a book deal,

Kayte Nunn

No,

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and

Kayte Nunn

part of me was like, "Are you just wasting your time, Kayte? Are all

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these hours-

Kayte Nunn

on something that is gonna go nowhere?" Um, but that didn't seem to matter too much. Um, I think I'm quite grateful that social media wasn't such a

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thing then,

Kayte Nunn

so

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I wasn't as distracted as

Kayte Nunn

I might have been. Um, but also I kind of, um, thought of it like having

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secret

Kayte Nunn

lover. You

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You could just kind of creep

Kayte Nunn

away and just spend some time

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your imaginary friends

Kayte Nunn

and,

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have this

Kayte Nunn

whole other world going on in your head,

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Mm that

Kayte Nunn

it was quite nice to spend time

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Mm. So, so then, uh, so you published your two contemp- uh, they were the contemporary romance novels. Uh, and then you released your four historical fiction w- we- Yeah and some of them are

Madeleine Cleary

the dual

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timeline as well. So you've got- Yeah multiple

Madeleine Cleary

timelines. So what was What inspired

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shift? And did

Madeleine Cleary

you change publisher at the time as well?

Kayte Nunn

Uh, I did, yes. Um, my, um, first publisher of those two books had

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a contemporary fiction list,

Kayte Nunn

but then decided not to, to go forward with it. So it became a good opportunity to look for a

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publisher

Kayte Nunn

for what became The

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Daughter. Yes. Um, and,

Kayte Nunn

um, I didn't consciously decide

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change genres.

Kayte Nunn

It was more that was where my area of interest was. Those are the kind of books I was reading, and then I happened to be in the

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gardens

Kayte Nunn

in Sydney one day and the, the first inkling of the story came to me, and I just

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knew

Kayte Nunn

that I had to sit down and try and write it.

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Um, yeah, and I

Kayte Nunn

I was really lucky. That did, um, extremely well

Madeleine Cleary

Yes.

Kayte Nunn

surprisingly.

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became, best-selling, um, you know, and then you- Yeah published your next few books.

Kayte Nunn

Lots of, yeah, lots of

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rights sold. Um,

Kayte Nunn

yeah, it quite a surprise.

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mean,

Kayte Nunn

I, I knew I'd put a lot of, a lot of work into it, and I did a, a, an awful lot

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research for

Kayte Nunn

it, but you never know how a book's to go. You really don't

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Of

Madeleine Cleary

course, of course. So

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then you so you're on this track of being this historical fiction bestselling author,

Madeleine Cleary

uh,

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and then you pivot, to, to a crime, to So The Palazzo, which came out, uh, was it last year? Last year, yes. Yes. Um, and with HarperCollins, so you've, Yeah moved from Hachette to HarperCollins. Yeah. Can

Madeleine Cleary

about the,

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The pivot, the change. Um, gosh,

Kayte Nunn

it was quite

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actually, because I wrote

Kayte Nunn

another manuscript in between that called Silver Lake. And, um, as part of that I did a course with Curtis Brown in London. Um, because I It was, um, crime and I hadn't really written crime before and I thought maybe I need to try and figure out,

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you know,

Kayte Nunn

what the

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I need some

Kayte Nunn

tips, I need

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know

Kayte Nunn

what

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doing. So

Kayte Nunn

I did that course, and as a part of that your work gets, um, submitted to all the agents in the agency and they have a look at it. Very early work, um, just for something you've been working

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during the course,

Kayte Nunn

and it happened to be this partial of

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manuscript, Silver Lake.

Kayte Nunn

And, um, my now agent saw it, um, she's an agent

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Curtis

Kayte Nunn

Brown in London, and absolutely loved it.

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And- Mm I hadn't been

Kayte Nunn

thinking of changing agents

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at

Kayte Nunn

the time, but it just seemed to make so much

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sense. They

Kayte Nunn

were a much bigger agency, they have

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around

Kayte Nunn

the world, um, they

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a, um,

Kayte Nunn

a film to, to

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film, film

Kayte Nunn

agency in Los Angeles, so it just made a lot more sense. But that manuscript,

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couldn't get

Kayte Nunn

quite the right deal for it.

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had

Kayte Nunn

some offers, but they wanted, you know, my next three books and

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firstborn and all the world rights for- Wow you know, really not very much

Kayte Nunn

money. So it just wasn't worth it. So we parked it and I began to write The Palazzo. Um, and interestingly enough, Silver Lake will come out, um, I think hopefully later this year. I

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say too

Kayte Nunn

much about it.

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Um, but- Mm-hmm um, it's

Kayte Nunn

nice to know that

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ever

Kayte Nunn

lost, and no writing is ever, ever a waste

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time, I don't think. Mm. Even if it

Kayte Nunn

never sees the light

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day. Um,

Kayte Nunn

so and then I wrote The Palazzo and my current publisher here really liked

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but the

Kayte Nunn

sales director wasn't so keen, and that's when I moved publishers.

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Gosh, that must have been hard though, Kayte, having published

Kayte Nunn

it's a rollercoaster. It is tough.

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you just have to learn not to take it personally. It's a business. Um, these are

Kayte Nunn

the commercial realities. Yeah. And the only thing you can do as a writer is go on

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write, you know, the be- Mm next best book you can really, and hope that

Kayte Nunn

that gets published. And I am aware of what a privilege it is to, to be able to, to be And I think I changed direction from, sorry, historical fiction to crime. It

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just more

Kayte Nunn

about what I was reading and

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I

Kayte Nunn

was enjoying. Um, and I'm really easily bored, so I, I You know, I'd written four historical novels and I was just ready for a change, to

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something else. Yes. Mm-hmm. Which is quite hard, because publishers

Kayte Nunn

want to build you as

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brand. Um- Yeah, I was gonna say that, that, that- and they're not

Kayte Nunn

they're not so

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which is why the sales

Kayte Nunn

director was not so keen that I

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gonna change direction and thought,

Kayte Nunn

well, if I was changing direction

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crime, would I change

Kayte Nunn

direction, you know, another

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later

Kayte Nunn

on? And who knows? You can't tell. But, um, I can only write the book that is the

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really.

Madeleine Cleary

yeah No, that's so interesting. And

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mean, as a historical fiction writer myself, um, I know the amount of, um, energy and time that goes into these as well. Like, it is quite Sometimes it's really tempting to just, you know And it's not, I'm not saying that writing contemporary crime is easier, but

Madeleine Cleary

there is a lot that has to go into these books as well. And finding

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right idea and the right concept that's hitting your readership and the market, like, it

Madeleine Cleary

is tough

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Yes.

Kayte Nunn

Yeah. And, um, you just have to kind of rely on your own, um, internal sense of what

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work as

Kayte Nunn

a story really. I think

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I think that's the only thing you

Kayte Nunn

can do. Um, yes, there are vagaries of publishing in terms of,

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know,

Kayte Nunn

um,

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certain time periods can be really

Kayte Nunn

popular for a while. Second World War fiction was huge. It's not so much anymore. And, and it can help if

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just

Kayte Nunn

catch the wave at the right time. If you're first

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second

Kayte Nunn

on that wave, you can do really well.

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Um, but um,

Kayte Nunn

um, you just really at the end of the day have to write the book that's calling to you,

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I think. Yes. Yes. That's It, it's hard to fake it

Kayte Nunn

otherwise

Speaker 6

Hello, it's A.T. Pruitt here, author of The Picasso Ransom. Set in Melbourne 1986 and based on a real crime that went unsolved, the theft of The Weeping Woman, the Picasso painting that was taken from the National Gallery on the 2nd of August, 1986. Uh, now nobody knows who did it, so I wrote the book as though I knew. Three senior citizens, Phoebe, Eva, and Dave, they take the law into their own hands, and they sneak out into the night to remove this Picasso from the wall of the gallery in protest against art funding. They then send a series of ransom letters, which were the actual ransom letters that were sent in the '80s. And, uh, if you've ever been looking for some great insults, these ransom letters have everything you need. I do hope that perhaps this novel will inspire the original thieves to finally come forward and say, "You know what? It was me." But, uh, in the meantime, we at least have this book. It's called The Picasso Ransom, and it is out now.

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Well, let's talk about the most recent book that calling to you, Kayte. Uh, so The Yacht,

Madeleine Cleary

which

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set in beautiful Mallorca, um, on

Madeleine Cleary

a super yacht. Um,

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now I

Madeleine Cleary

heard this was inspired by a trip

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that you took to Mallorca, which sounds very, like a very dreamy inspired story. Um, and I was saying to you before we started recording that reading this in Melbourne winter was delightful. Oh, good. Uh, you capture the beautiful warmth, um, of, of

Madeleine Cleary

Mallorca in summer,

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which was lovely. Can you

Madeleine Cleary

tell us a

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bit about The Yacht and the inspiration

Madeleine Cleary

behind it?

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Yes, yes. Um, I, um,

Kayte Nunn

I was

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for an

Kayte Nunn

environment that was very contained,

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and

Kayte Nunn

there's nothing more contained than a yacht.

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know,

Kayte Nunn

there's only a certain number of people who

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who can be

Kayte Nunn

on it at one time. Um, and things can go really badly wrong

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sea.

Kayte Nunn

I had read with some interest of

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the

Kayte Nunn

tragic sinking of the yacht, the Bayesian, off Sicily a

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of

Kayte Nunn

years ago. Um, and just the stories behind that and

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quickly

Kayte Nunn

it happened. Um, and that kind of stayed in my mind. I also read, um, a story, I think it was in New York Magazine or something like that, about the Millers. Brandon Miller was a, a New York and Long Island based, um, property investor, and his wife was all over social media. You know, pictures of their beautiful life. The, you know, um, they,

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were super

Kayte Nunn

ultra

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rich list people. But

Kayte Nunn

he, uh What happened, uh, there was it was all a sham.

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It was an absolute house of

Kayte Nunn

house of cards and he was in, sinking in all kinds of debt. And tragically, he committed suicide

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in the

Kayte Nunn

the garage, uh, of his house while his wife was in Italy with

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his children. And it just struck me as, uh,

Kayte Nunn

just ineffably sad and that, that people

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like

Kayte Nunn

they

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to,

Kayte Nunn

um, keep up with the Joneses in such an, a, you know, incredible way. Um, so those two things fed, those two

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of

Kayte Nunn

stories fed into it. And then I watched a lot of Below Deck. I

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I have a huge

Kayte Nunn

appetite

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trash

Kayte Nunn

TV and I watched a lot of that and I was like, "Yeah, this could..." This whole

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of

Kayte Nunn

upstairs downstairs, the them and us, the, the increasing gap

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rich and

Kayte Nunn

poor, all those kind of things really quite fascinate me. So, um, it's, that seemed to be like the perfect, um,

video1596645673

kind

Kayte Nunn

of the perfect combination of ideas.

video1596645673

And then I had

Kayte Nunn

been on holiday in Majorca quite a long time ago, but just fell in love with the island. Um, and I just, I had an idea that the yacht could kind of almost circumnavigate the island while the story was unfolding. So it sort of, that sort of

video1596645673

in a way. Mm. Yes. Did you- Um, and it

Kayte Nunn

also happens to be a really big, um, sailing hub.

video1596645673

Mm-hmm. Um,

Kayte Nunn

Palma itself has a massive marina and so that, it just felt like the ideal place to set it. I do like to try and set places where I have spent

Madeleine Cleary

Mm.

video1596645673

Perf- yeah, it was the perfect setting. And it's funny 'cause you mentioned Upstairs Downstairs. That's exactly what I thought about when I was reading- reading it. Because you do get that insight, not only into the world and the eyes and the views

Madeleine Cleary

of the super-rich

video1596645673

who can afford

Madeleine Cleary

to

video1596645673

purchase these incredible super yachts, like, they just sound amazing.

Madeleine Cleary

um, but then you see

video1596645673

the undercurrent, so the, you know, the underbelly, which are the- Yeah staff involved. And so I found, like, Piper's story really quite interesting. Do you wanna tell us a little bit about Piper? Um,

Kayte Nunn

I think she

video1596645673

was one

Kayte Nunn

of the first characters that came to me. Um, and I knew she had to be hiding something. There was a reason, you know, that she was on that yacht. She's not a total innocent bystander

video1596645673

by

Kayte Nunn

any means. Um, and so she became one of the main drivers And then interestingly to me, um, Melissa,

video1596645673

is

Kayte Nunn

the daughter of the, the billionaire, um, uh, from

video1596645673

first marriage. She became

Kayte Nunn

really quite an important character to

video1596645673

because, uh, to

Kayte Nunn

the outside world she

video1596645673

looked

Kayte Nunn

like

video1596645673

real kind

Kayte Nunn

of hard ass, and she was, um, incredibly self-disciplined and hardworking and seemed

video1596645673

have it

Kayte Nunn

all. But really when you dig a little deeper, she's dealing with all

video1596645673

of issues as well. Oh, yeah. It was those

Kayte Nunn

two female characters that to me felt the strongest in the novel. Although there are I think about five or six different points

video1596645673

view,

Kayte Nunn

plus some kind of social

video1596645673

comments. I spent quite a bit of

Kayte Nunn

time going down Reddit wormholes and, just really enjoyed the way people talked about things

video1596645673

if, you

Kayte Nunn

know, they knew all about them and they were the authorities on, on what had happened in various events. I added those for a bit

video1596645673

fun as well. And, uh, on the multiple perspectives, I mean, sometimes when you do have... 'Cause you've got quite a few perspectives in this novel, and sometimes I find when you flip between them,

Madeleine Cleary

like, you become a little bit,

video1596645673

um, you have to just

Madeleine Cleary

sort

video1596645673

think,

Madeleine Cleary

"Oh,

video1596645673

where's this story up to?" Da, da. But I didn't find that in The

Madeleine Cleary

Yacht

video1596645673

Oh, okay. That's good. Perhaps because the, the chapters are...

Madeleine Cleary

Well,

video1596645673

some of them are only two pages. Was that- Yeah was that deliberate? Yes, it was.

Kayte Nunn

Just

video1596645673

keep the story going, to

Kayte Nunn

maintain a sense of momentum and, and to, to maintain a sense of all these different

video1596645673

things going on board, you

Kayte Nunn

know, uh, on one kind of fairly contained

video1596645673

space. Yes. And perhaps it is because

Madeleine Cleary

it is

video1596645673

so contained. And I was i- really interested,

Madeleine Cleary

that was actually when you mentioned

video1596645673

finding somewhere where it

Madeleine Cleary

was confined,

video1596645673

was really curious to know, as a writer, was that easier to have all your characters, like a big cast of characters together

Madeleine Cleary

in

video1596645673

space? Or were there more challenges?

Kayte Nunn

I had to draw myself

video1596645673

a map of

Kayte Nunn

where And I looked at yacht plans

video1596645673

and, thought,

Kayte Nunn

"Right, I'll try..." And so I could work out where the cabins were and what was on each, deck, I looked at lots of yacht plans and worked out, you know, um, how much

video1596645673

might

Kayte Nunn

have cost, what would have been included on a yacht, all that kind of stuff. So that kind of, that sort of research was a lot of fun. Um, and no, I didn't find it too tricky 'cause it's qu- it's relatively big given the, the number of people on board still. So there were And I think there are places on board a yacht where you

video1596645673

really be quite private and- Mm get away. So- Did you get invited onto one?

Kayte Nunn

Uh, no, but I did. I have Well, actually, um, quite a few years

video1596645673

I used to be a travel writer. Yes.

Kayte Nunn

and I did spend some time on a, uh,

video1596645673

a yacht

Kayte Nunn

sailing, that normally sails around the Kimberley, and we sailed up the Hawkesbury for a

video1596645673

days. So

Kayte Nunn

I had a little bit of a sense

video1596645673

that, yeah.

Kayte Nunn

yeah, And it was just, I

video1596645673

maybe

Kayte Nunn

f- yeah, I think there were probably only 14 of us on board, so probably a similar size. But not quite so many bells and whistles maybe.

video1596645673

so. I think there were... You said there were two staff per, um, passenger.

Madeleine Cleary

which is quite extraordinary.

video1596645673

Um, I actually found one of the best parts was the detail of the super

Madeleine Cleary

yacht. Like, I, I

video1596645673

all the language and the words. It sounds

Madeleine Cleary

like you did do a lot of research.

Kayte Nunn

I did. That was

video1596645673

Yes, yeah. Quite a bit

Kayte Nunn

of

video1596645673

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, hopefully, um, someone will read this and they have a super yacht, and say, Kayte come I didn't quite get that.

Kayte Nunn

that. Oh, no. Oh, maybe. I d-

video1596645673

I d- I'm

Kayte Nunn

not holding my breath, no.

video1596645673

It al- it always sounds quite glamorous working on a super yacht, but, um, I don't think I would ever want to after reading your book. Oh, look, I think

Kayte Nunn

it's, um, it's really hard work and, uh, and you're dealing with people who aren't used to hearing the word no. I

video1596645673

that would be

Kayte Nunn

the biggest challenge. And then I think I touch on it briefly, there are all kinds of, um, issues of people behaving inappropriately with young women,

video1596645673

working on yachts,

Kayte Nunn

Because, yeah, they're not used

video1596645673

hearing the word no, and they just, you know, they

Kayte Nunn

think they own everything. Uh, and I think

video1596645673

that's

Kayte Nunn

the kind of s-

video1596645673

of

Kayte Nunn

the seamy underside what can go on

video1596645673

Yes. And I guess

Madeleine Cleary

that's quite, it

video1596645673

quite the interesting part too because, um, you know, while this is a thriller, um, it's a fast-paced turn- page-turner, um, you also offer this sort of subtle critique of wealth and power and class. Um, and exploitation as well. Yeah. Like, there's a lot of that. Um, was that something you always wanted to include?

Kayte Nunn

Absolutely, but without, um, being kind of prescriptive about it.

video1596645673

Mm-hmm. Just to, you

Kayte Nunn

know, to, to comment on that, that this does happen and, and make the reader aware of that without kind yeah, without being

video1596645673

I suppose. Yeah. Mm. Mm. You, you never

Kayte Nunn

dictate to the reader. You can never kind of bash the reader over the head with your own viewpoint. You just have to

video1596645673

of lay it out, um, and let them

Kayte Nunn

make up their own mind about

Madeleine Cleary

Hmm.

video1596645673

Did you plot it out, The Yacht, or are you a pantser? Um, I

Kayte Nunn

wish I could be a plotter. I'm absolutely 100%

video1596645673

100% a pantser. I

Kayte Nunn

try, I really try, and I've tried all different sorts of methods over

video1596645673

years, with whiteboards, with

Kayte Nunn

whiteboards,

video1596645673

big

Kayte Nunn

sheets of paper.

video1596645673

Occasionally I'll

Kayte Nunn

do a bit of brainstorming and I'll go to

video1596645673

café just with a notebook and

Kayte Nunn

have some thoughts, and that's about as far as I get in terms

video1596645673

planning.

Kayte Nunn

If I

video1596645673

the

Kayte Nunn

whole story out, I'd be bored before I started 'cause I would know what happens. Um, you know, I'm writing to find out what happens as much as the, the reader is reading to find out what happens, and often it surprises me, too.

Madeleine Cleary

I'm glad that

video1596645673

say that because

Madeleine Cleary

as,

video1596645673

Because I write historical mysteries, and a lot of other crime writers tell me that they are

Madeleine Cleary

are plotters

video1596645673

because it helps with all the hooks and the twists and the

Madeleine Cleary

the turns and everything. So it makes me feel much better. But I suppose though,

video1596645673

a lot Some, some One writer

Madeleine Cleary

told me even if

video1596645673

don't plot out initially and you do pants the first

Madeleine Cleary

draft, there comes a time in the editorial where you do have to

video1596645673

s- really unpick it and start to plot out those points. Is that something you have to do? Yeah. You just have to make sure that

Kayte Nunn

there is enough going on to kind of maybe misdirect the reader or just leave

video1596645673

reader

Kayte Nunn

wondering, um, to, to pique their interest.

video1596645673

Um, and

Kayte Nunn

then s- usually I have a few ideas

video1596645673

kind

Kayte Nunn

of tent pole things that might happen along the way, um, and where it might end up. Although it doesn't of- you know, it doesn't always end up quite where I think it is. And interestingly, um, both

video1596645673

Palazzo and

Kayte Nunn

and The Yacht, my editors have pushed me that bit harder and gone, "We just need another twist. We need another twist." And so that has come, that last final twist has actually come in the editing process. Um, so yeah, it's not

video1596645673

I

Kayte Nunn

can do all at once. I have

video1596645673

come

Kayte Nunn

back

video1596645673

take

Kayte Nunn

small bites at it, and then

video1596645673

about it

Kayte Nunn

again, and do a lot of walking before I can come up with, with the, you know, uh, like, "Oh, yes,

video1596645673

this could

Kayte Nunn

happen and that will make it brilliant."

video1596645673

And yes, it's a

Kayte Nunn

slow process

video1596645673

Hmm. Um, w-

Madeleine Cleary

I wanted to ask you about your relationship with your publisher and editor

video1596645673

'cause y- obviously you're a, you know, you've published nine books now, very experienced author. What does the editorial process look like these days? And you- you're publishing a book a year as well, which is

Madeleine Cleary

a lot of, you know, full pressure

video1596645673

to, to deliver and,

Madeleine Cleary

and,

video1596645673

you know- Yeah write. So what's, what's your relationship like now?

Kayte Nunn

Oh, look, I am

video1596645673

so grateful

Kayte Nunn

for editorial input, and I have

video1596645673

couple of brilliant

Kayte Nunn

editors both here and in the UK. Um, and yeah, putting a

video1596645673

out

Kayte Nunn

into the world is, it's a team effort. And, um, particularly my, uh, my kind of

video1596645673

editor

Kayte Nunn

on The Yacht was amazing. She really She worried about all the little details and picked

video1596645673

on everything and

Kayte Nunn

so that

video1596645673

incredible. But

Kayte Nunn

I love the over-

video1596645673

big picture overview

Kayte Nunn

I get as well from,

video1596645673

my

Kayte Nunn

acquiring editors. Yeah, it's I, I couldn't write as- the books I do without their input. absolutely invaluable.

video1596645673

Yeah. Do you- And I'm grateful for it

Kayte Nunn

it every single time

Madeleine Cleary

So

video1596645673

when you come up with new ideas for future books,

Madeleine Cleary

do you

video1596645673

to them first, and, and then sort of discuss the idea

Madeleine Cleary

and

video1596645673

go write it? Or are you- Um, no submitting them straight? Usually

Kayte Nunn

I pitch it to my literary agent

video1596645673

and we discuss it, Mm. and

Kayte Nunn

we're in the process, um, of discussing what I'm going

video1596645673

be writing next

Kayte Nunn

just

video1596645673

this

Kayte Nunn

moment, and that's quite interesting. It's helping me just focus my mind

video1596645673

and

Kayte Nunn

my literary agent has

video1596645673

a good commercial

Kayte Nunn

sense as well. Um, but generally I tend to, particularly if

video1596645673

a new contract, I'll write the book before it then gets submitted

Kayte Nunn

to a publisher. Um, and then I might have a, a pitch for a second book, and so they might offer me and that's what happened with The Palazzo and The Yacht.

video1596645673

Yeah. That's great. And are you writing more crime, Kayte? Yes. Yes. That's what your plan is? Yeah? But you can't tell us anything about it. Oh, not

Kayte Nunn

really, no. I just worry that sometimes if you talk about something too much, it,

video1596645673

it

Kayte Nunn

loses that spark, and you have to kind

video1596645673

keep it

Kayte Nunn

close for a while so that the,

video1596645673

know, the flame doesn't go out. Of course. No, I understand. So,

Kayte Nunn

and h- honestly, because I'm a pantser, I don't know where it's going

video1596645673

the time.

Kayte Nunn

time.

video1596645673

No, I completely understand that.

Madeleine Cleary

So how do, how does

video1596645673

process look like when you are publishing a book a year? And of it, and this year it sounds like you might have two books out in a year. Yes. Well, I had- 'Cause

Madeleine Cleary

it doesn't take

video1596645673

just one year to, to- No write a book, does it? I had a gap of a couple of

Kayte Nunn

years because this other book, g- didn't get published. Um,

video1596645673

I just, um But

Kayte Nunn

basically I try and make myself

video1596645673

kinds of

Kayte Nunn

revisions, schedules, and you know, like I

video1596645673

to do for

Kayte Nunn

exams. I'll do this much this day and that much that day and, um, I try

video1596645673

write Monday

Kayte Nunn

to Friday. Sometimes I have to w- write on weekends as well. Um, even if I used to do this ridiculous thing called the hour of power on the weekends.

video1596645673

I'm

Kayte Nunn

just going away to the bedroom

video1596645673

an

Kayte Nunn

hour and leaving my family behind

video1596645673

and

Kayte Nunn

usually, you know, an hour would

video1596645673

by

Kayte Nunn

and I'd

video1596645673

be

Kayte Nunn

writing and they would've forgotten that I'd disappeared. Uh,

video1596645673

I

Kayte Nunn

I have to trick myself into, into writing sometimes. Uh, but often in the course of a year it might mean that I am editing one book,

video1596645673

I'm promoting

Kayte Nunn

another, and I'm writing, um, you

video1596645673

know,

Kayte Nunn

writing

video1596645673

the,

Kayte Nunn

the first draft of another. So you kind of As long as I'm not swapping day by day, I'm doing it

video1596645673

big

Kayte Nunn

chunks, okay to keep my, my brain focused on that one

video1596645673

But-

Madeleine Cleary

And how's the work-life balance

video1596645673

then? Oh, look, it's pretty good. My daughters

Kayte Nunn

are older now, so I'm doing less mothering, and that's taking up a lot less of my time. So, um, yeah, no, it's, it's I'm, I'm really fortunate to be able to have plenty of time, almost too much time. You know, sometimes if,

video1596645673

your

Kayte Nunn

time is limited, you, you just have to sit down and get

video1596645673

done. And I

Kayte Nunn

remember that, feeling that pressure always. Like,

video1596645673

just

Kayte Nunn

wanna go and write. I just wanna write this." Whereas now I'm like, "No, Kayte, you have to to laptop

video1596645673

by

Kayte Nunn

10:00 this morning."

video1596645673

That's interesting. Yeah, I've, I've found that too, 'cause I have a day job, and I've always wondered if I wor- if I had full time to write, if I would produce more, and I don't think I

Madeleine Cleary

would.

video1596645673

Yeah. Yeah. You know, you squeeze- Yeah those hours. You do it in the cracks, and perhaps just not having that much time still enables you to be,

Madeleine Cleary

you

video1596645673

y- you- I think it does forced to sit down. Yeah. Yeah.

Kayte Nunn

and I think

video1596645673

it's That's such an,

Kayte Nunn

an, a good position to come,

video1596645673

come

Kayte Nunn

at

video1596645673

from, because so-

Kayte Nunn

so many people can say, "Oh, well, if I only had the time,

video1596645673

write." And

Kayte Nunn

it's like, no, no, no, you make

video1596645673

time. You,

Kayte Nunn

you

video1596645673

half an hour a day. You

Kayte Nunn

know, how much time do you spend scrolling on your phone? You could cut that in half and just focus and do that. And, and I think the trick is

video1596645673

just

Kayte Nunn

go, I, and I often do, I'll just go into the manuscript.

video1596645673

just have

Kayte Nunn

have a, a

video1596645673

through. I'll just have a look, and before

Kayte Nunn

I know it, I'm in the story and I'm coming up with some ideas and writing,

Madeleine Cleary

Mm.

video1596645673

Mm. Well, I,

Madeleine Cleary

I think everyone should take your advice,

video1596645673

because you are prolific and productive, and- you write great novels, so And bestselling novels as well. I'm

Madeleine Cleary

And best-selling

Kayte Nunn

very deadline oriented.

Madeleine Cleary

That's a, that is a really,

video1596645673

really good way to be. Um, is there something that

Madeleine Cleary

you wish

video1596645673

that you'd known at the start of your career, um, that you know now?

Kayte Nunn

Um, I wish I'd known that, um

video1596645673

um-

Kayte Nunn

Lots

video1596645673

things

Kayte Nunn

actually. Not to compare myself with other people, with other writers. Um, comparison is the thief of joy and it, it serves no purpose, and that, um,

video1596645673

The, the writer's career is very much

Kayte Nunn

a rollercoaster. You can have amazing times and don't forget to celebrate them, and then you can have really tough times when

video1596645673

don't

Kayte Nunn

quite go your way, and a lot of it is out of your only thing you can control is writing the best can at that point in time.

video1596645673

Um, and to kind of hold onto that, I think, is

Kayte Nunn

really

video1596645673

Mm. So, uh, was W- when you are in the dip of the rollercoaster, what are some of the things that have helped you? Um, not

Kayte Nunn

looking too far ahead. Just, um, immersing myself back in the writing and, um, just taking it one day at

video1596645673

time. Mm-hmm. Um, it's

Kayte Nunn

the only thing,

video1596645673

yeah, Mm. The only thing I c- I can way

Kayte Nunn

I can,

video1596645673

um,

Kayte Nunn

figure out how to,

video1596645673

to

Kayte Nunn

deal with it.

video1596645673

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's, it's really import- I think it's really tough when you're in the moment, isn't

Madeleine Cleary

it, to try

video1596645673

get yourself out of it. Um, I know. Yeah. And, and, and the thing is, it, it comes for everybody. No one's a-

Madeleine Cleary

no one's going to

video1596645673

a linear success- No,

Kayte Nunn

no, exactly. I think you actually have to

video1596645673

quite

Kayte Nunn

bloody-minded as a writer.

video1596645673

You

Kayte Nunn

just

video1596645673

to go, "You know what? Don't underestimate

Kayte Nunn

me. I'm gonna keep going." Um, yeah, even if nobody reads what I'm writing, I'm doing it because I

video1596645673

can't do anything else. Mm, mm. So how do

Madeleine Cleary

you measure success these days

video1596645673

Um, readers

Kayte Nunn

telling me they've enjoyed a book.

video1596645673

I

Kayte Nunn

think it, it, that's what it comes down to. Um, and a friend of mine has this great theory in terms of negative reviews, which used

video1596645673

get

Kayte Nunn

to me. They don't so much anymore, which

video1596645673

fantastic. It's

Kayte Nunn

only taken 10 years. Um, it's, uh, called The Wrong Restaurant, and she used to work for, um, a three-hatted restaurant, and they'd occasionally get terrible reviews.

video1596645673

I hated it. It

Kayte Nunn

it was awful." And she'd go, "You know what? They just went expecting a burger. They, they went to the wrong restaurant." And it's

video1596645673

if people

Kayte Nunn

read my books

video1596645673

they don't

Kayte Nunn

enjoy it, maybe they're, it's not what they were expecting. Um,

video1596645673

so

Kayte Nunn

And, and as Elizabeth Gilbert says, you can be the ripest, juiciest peach on the tree and somebody isn't gonna like So you just, you know, just ig-

video1596645673

just ig- you

Kayte Nunn

know, yes, it's fantastic to hear

video1596645673

people who have enjoyed the book,

Kayte Nunn

uh, or the books,

video1596645673

and for all the various reasons, and the

Kayte Nunn

things it's meant to them. That's amazing. Um, and I love it when

video1596645673

email me. It really does cheer me up and, and, you know, make me think it's worth, worth keeping going. Um, but,

Kayte Nunn

um, yeah, you try, you just try not to, y- you know, ignore the, the voice on your shoulder that tells you what you're

video1596645673

is

Kayte Nunn

a waste of time or no good, and then ignore, ignore the haters

video1596645673

there's, yeah, there's

Kayte Nunn

no point in dwelling on that

video1596645673

One of the things I always tell debut writers is just not to check Goodreads, or have someone

Madeleine Cleary

that will

video1596645673

filter through the good ones and read you those. Yeah.

Kayte Nunn

I think the other thing to do is go onto Goodreads and look at the reviews of a book you think

video1596645673

absolutely incredible- Yeah and one of the best books you've ever read,

Kayte Nunn

and, you know, and read

video1596645673

one

Kayte Nunn

and two-star reviews, and then you go, "Ah, okay. You know what? Everybody's got an opinion," and it doesn't make them right in your mind.

video1596645673

Yes, exactly. Exactly. Can you tell us about your publication day of

Madeleine Cleary

The Yacht?

video1596645673

So what you, you mentioned that you were in Spain- Ah, yeah which is a really nice place to be. I,

Kayte Nunn

I, I'd got the dates wrong as well, 'cause I think the dates

video1596645673

changed.

Kayte Nunn

So I was in Spain staying with some friends, quite coincidentally, um, 'cause I haven't been to Europe in a very long time and I just did a, a...

video1596645673

just come back from a big

Kayte Nunn

six-week trip. And, um, and

video1596645673

looked on the thing, I was like,

Kayte Nunn

I

video1596645673

my God, that's today." So I made a quick video,

Kayte Nunn

and I had no makeup on. I'd been sunbathing all day. I'd had a lovely long boozy lunch. I was like, "Oh goodness,

video1596645673

publication day and here I am in Spain." Wait, so you forgot?

Madeleine Cleary

Oh, no, in

video1596645673

Spain. Okay. I just got Yeah, I

Kayte Nunn

just

video1596645673

got the dates wrong-

Kayte Nunn

um,

video1596645673

for

Kayte Nunn

the, um, I

video1596645673

it was

Kayte Nunn

the Australian publication date,

video1596645673

'cause

Kayte Nunn

I think it had changed. So, um, yeah, that was quite funny. And then afterwards I was

video1596645673

"Oh my gosh,

Kayte Nunn

here I

video1596645673

Who would

Kayte Nunn

have thought

video1596645673

I started

Kayte Nunn

writing this, you know, 18 months or so ago, I'd actually be in Spain on publication day? That was

video1596645673

special. Oh, and I love that you just didn't even plan it. It was just- that

Madeleine Cleary

that was the way it was gonna be.

video1596645673

was the way it was meant to be. It was like it was meant to be. It was. I hope you had a copy of it that you could take a photo. I

Kayte Nunn

didn't because I was traveling. I'd, I'd left, uh, Australia before I had any, um, any

video1596645673

copies. So I

Kayte Nunn

didn't see them

video1596645673

I

Kayte Nunn

came home again. So that was kind of nice. It was like an extra special present when I got back

video1596645673

Aw. That's so, so lovely. Um, okay, so we always, um, finish our podcast asking writers what their number one tip is. Um, so Kayte, what is your number one top tip for writers? Look, I've got

Kayte Nunn

so many, but, um, I think the most thing is, is learn your craft and learn about the industry.

video1596645673

Um,

Kayte Nunn

so go to other book- people's book launches. Um, do

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writing workshops.

Kayte Nunn

There's loads of resources online.

video1596645673

about Read craft

Kayte Nunn

books about writing. Um, you

video1596645673

and, and

Kayte Nunn

realize that, um, nobody ever, you know, came out of, of,

video1596645673

know,

Kayte Nunn

suddenly sat down one day and

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"I'm gonna

Kayte Nunn

be a writer," and writes a perfect first draft. Um, you

video1596645673

it's

Kayte Nunn

don't be, uh, don't

video1596645673

your first draft

Kayte Nunn

with other writers' finished products. There's absolutely

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point.

Kayte Nunn

It takes a lot of work. And be prepared to, to do the work. Once the first draft is written, that's actually when the work starts, not when

video1596645673

think,

Kayte Nunn

"Great, I've done it. Can I hand it over to somebody else?" And I've come across

video1596645673

who've done

Kayte Nunn

that.

video1596645673

like, "Well, you know, I'm done now.

Kayte Nunn

Here you go." And it's like, no, no, no. This is where the work really starts

Madeleine Cleary

Mm. How do you go

video1596645673

How do you think that writers can go about and find that community? 'Cause a lot of writers don't have a writing community, especially when

Madeleine Cleary

you're starting out.

video1596645673

What, what would you recommend? Yes, and I think

Kayte Nunn

also if you,

video1596645673

live regionally, it can be quite

Kayte Nunn

difficult because a lot of

video1596645673

seems to

Kayte Nunn

happen in the

video1596645673

cities. But there'll be a bookshop near you.

Kayte Nunn

There'll be a library that has events. I mean, I live

video1596645673

quite remotely, and our library

Kayte Nunn

has some incredible events with writers. Try and go along

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those.

Kayte Nunn

You

video1596645673

even

Kayte Nunn

connect with writers

video1596645673

social media. If you

Kayte Nunn

liked one of their books, send them a message, that kind of thing. Um, yeah, there's, there's a lot you can do. Uh, and then there's a huge amount of

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online

Kayte Nunn

that are free even if you don't have, the, the funds to, to do workshops. There's a huge amount of resources online. Um, you know, your local library probably has some craft books that you can order or reserve

video1596645673

as well. Mm. Mm. Do you have any that are your favorite? 'Cause you mentioned they were- I- helpful at the start.

Kayte Nunn

I do. Um, there is a book by Donald Maass called The Emotional Craft

video1596645673

Fiction. Mm. And I've read

Kayte Nunn

that two or

video1596645673

times

Kayte Nunn

now and always go back

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and it's

Kayte Nunn

very helpful.

video1596645673

Okay. I will pop that into the show notes. That's a really, really important one. Um, Kayte, thank you so for joining us. You've given us so many great tips. Um, and if you want to escape from Australia's winter- buy a copy of The Yacht, in bookshops now. Thank you so much, Kayte, for on. Oh, Thanks,

Kayte Nunn

Madeleine. Thanks for chatting to

Speaker 5

Thank you for listening to another episode of The Book Deal Podcast. If you are enjoying the pod, we'd really appreciate you following or sharing the show in your podcast directory, checking us out on Instagram and Facebook, or supporting us through our Patreon community at patreon.com/thebookdealpodcast