The Writing Deal: Are too many books being published and is community the key to increased readers? Plus the joy of book boxes! Catch up with Tina and Natasha.

Hosts Tina Strachan and Natasha Rai catch up. Natasha shares being highly commended for a Varuna fellowship (amid 812 entries), explains Varuna as the National Writers’ House in Katoomba, and discusses upcoming copy edits for The Bride Price, preparation for Melbourne’s QLit Festival, and a four-hour “complicated characters” workshop at Hunter Writers Centre on 25 July. Tina describes a quieter month with school-holiday outings, catching up on admin, and reflecting on daily writing habits via Stephen King’s 2,000-words-a-day routine. They discuss promotional book boxes, including a Penguin Random House box for Shara Curlett’s middle-grade fantasy Protector of Beyond (out in September), and what authors might include in their own. They also unpack a Guardian article arguing Australia is publishing too quickly, talk shelf-life realities, the role of community and independent booksellers, and offer practical promotion ideas. They highlight NSW “Stories Matter” fellowships ($50,000; closes 27 July) and The Wheeler Centre’s The Next Chapter (stipend and mentorship; closes 31 July), and end by encouraging writers to keep writing for joy.

00:00 Podcast intro and hosts
00:56 Catch-up and Varuna news
02:07 What is Varuna
04:42 Edits festivals and workshop prep
06:25 Tina holiday reset
08:08 Stephen King writing habit
12:18 Back to routine and topics
12:40 Promotional book boxes
16:34 DIY book box ideas
18:10 Guardian debate too many books
19:13 Too Many Books Debate
20:39 Readers Bookstores Squeeze
21:07 Rose Red Bookshop Hope
22:12 Community Over Commodity
26:24 Shelf Life Three Months
28:35 Bookseller Reality Check
29:24 Tips Readers And Writers
31:38 Keep Books Selling Longer
36:07 Remember Why You Write
37:47 Fellowships And Grants
39:51 Final Writing Pep Talk
41:11 Podcast Farewell Outro

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Transcript

Speaker 0:09

The Book Deal Podcast Where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books.

Speaker 2 0:15

We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals, to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal.

Speaker 3 0:25

So no matter what stage of writing you're at, we've got you covered. I'm Tina Strachan.

Speaker 0:30

I'm Madeleine Cleary.

Speaker 2 0:32

And I'm Natasha Rai.

Speaker 3 0:34

And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors.

Speaker 4 0:37

One deal at a time. The Book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters which it's recorded on, and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.

Tina Strachan 0:56

Hi, Natasha Rai. How are you doing?

Natasha Rai 0:58

Oh, good, Tina Strachan. How are you?

Tina Strachan 1:00

Yeah, really good. Just the two of us today. I know. In our- It's

Natasha Rai 1:04

a

Tina Strachan 1:05

bit sad. Mm. It is a bit sad. No Mads today. But she's been a busy lady and working very hard. Yes, so having to skip this catch up. Mm. But I'm sure we'll, um, have a nice big catch up when we chat to her next time. But speaking of catch-ups, tell me, what have you been up to?

Natasha Rai 1:22

You know what? I would actually like one catch-up episode for me to go, "You know what? I've been really free and easy and have nothing on." Are you? But it's never the way. No, I would like one. I'm still waiting for one, to say that. So I had some really lovely news. So I didn't score a place for one of the Varuna fellowships, but I was highly commended. Mm. Which is the first time that's ever happened, so, um.

Tina Strachan 1:48

Congratulations.

Natasha Rai 1:49

Yeah, it, it felt- That's awesome it, it's both really cool and also like, "Ah, just missed out." But-

Tina Strachan 1:55

Yeah.

Natasha Rai 1:55

Yeah, I know given that they had an unprecedented- Wow number of submissions for this one- I feel very grateful that-

Tina Strachan 2:04

Yeah

Natasha Rai 2:04

yeah that I got a named place, so to speak. Yeah.

Tina Strachan 2:07

Absolutely. Can you tell people a little bit, who don't know about Varuna, what Varuna is?

Natasha Rai 2:11

Yeah, so Varuna is... It- they're called the National Writers' House, and it used to be owned by Eleanor and Mick Dark, who were writers and lived there. And now that it's been donated and it's run by a trust, for writers to come and stay and write. And you can, um... So Varuna run a series of fellowships and residences all year round on their own, and then in partnerships with different writer centers in each state. And if you're an alumnus, if that's the right word, yes, um, you can actually just pay it and go. So, um-

Tina Strachan 2:44

Oh, I didn't realize that.

Natasha Rai 2:46

Yeah. So I think they used to- Ah you could just pay and go any time, but now I think it's only for alumni who have that opportunity. So once you go and stay there, um, you can just write to them and see the next available, and you can just pay it and go. And the cool thing is, it's, it's not just you go and stay there, but all your meals are cooked for you. Mm. So you get your, like- Because every dinner is cooked for you. There's an amazing library. The grounds are just beautiful. Um, it's in Katoomba in the Blue Mountains, so- Mm there's lots of beautiful walks, and this town center is really nearby, so you can get good coffee if you want. It's just an amazing place. I've visited writers who've been staying there, but I haven't yet been able to score a fellowship or a residency- Mm opportunity myself. But it's, it's on, it's, um, part of the dream. It's getting

Tina Strachan 3:33

closer.

Natasha Rai 3:34

Hopefully, yes. We'll see.

Tina Strachan 3:35

Yeah.

Natasha Rai 3:35

Mm. Yeah, so their main one i- are the Varuna fellowships every year, and I think You can check their website, but I'm pretty sure that they offer 50 places. Yeah. Um, so it's through various... And then you can look at the categories, 'cause there's specific categories. For example, if you're a carer, there is this category that you can enter. And it's not like you can't enter the general plus whatever else. So when you look at the application form, 'cause it, it's annual, you'll see that you can just tick whichever boxes apply to you.

Tina Strachan 4:04

Mm-hmm, yeah.

Natasha Rai 4:04

Um, and then of course- Yeah just check your state writers' center to see what other opportunities there are.

Tina Strachan 4:09

Yeah, Queensland Writers' Centre, I noticed, 'cause I'm part of Queensland Writers' Centre, um, yeah, recently had them open as well, so. That's right. Yes, just check your local writers' centre for- Yeah when they have them open.

Natasha Rai 4:20

Exactly.

Tina Strachan 4:21

Oh, well, I'm sad that you missed out, Tash, but excited 'cause it's getting closer and highly commended. Yeah. That's incredible. Yeah, it is. 'Cause I feel like there was lots of amazing authors who they just couldn't decide from.

Natasha Rai 4:32

Yeah, I mean, they had 812 entries. Oh. So it's... I'm just... Yeah, it's a real honor to be-

Tina Strachan 4:37

Wow

Natasha Rai 4:38

highly commended. Mm. Um, so that happened. That was great. Um, what else? So I'm just about to go into copy edits on The Bride Price. The Bride Price. Um, so I'm waiting to hear back from that. Um, touch wood it's not gonna be major. And the other thing I'm doing is I'm prepping for the QLit Festival in Melbourne in a couple of weeks. So I'm on a panel with some amaz- a poet and a short story writer and a novelist. Actually, it's Samantha Byres' art novel, who was a debut from last year. Dead Ends is her novel.

Tina Strachan 5:09

Wow.

Natasha Rai 5:10

So I'm just reading those works and getting together all my ideas about what I wanna talk to them about. And then I'm also prepping for a workshop that I'm doing at the Hunter Writers Centre on the 25th of July. So if you're in Newcastle, people, um, come along. It's about complicated characters, and I love a complicated character. Mm. It's gonna be really, really practical, hands-on, quite fast-paced. So, check it out on their website. It's... Yeah, come along if you can.

Tina Strachan 5:37

I love that. So does it just go for an hour? How long

Natasha Rai 5:40

does the workshop go for? No, it's, it's four hours. It's, it's- Four

Tina Strachan 5:42

hours? Nice

Natasha Rai 5:42

yep, I think it's 1:00 till 5:00. Um, 'cause-

Tina Strachan 5:44

Yeah, 'cause you said fast-paced, so I thought, "Okay, how do you do that in..." Yeah Like, 'cause a lot of work- a lot of kids workshops that I do only go for an hour. That's all you can really

Natasha Rai 5:51

do. Yeah, exactly. People get bored. No, no, this is... Yeah. So I, so what we're gonna do is the first couple of hours is gonna be just looking at how you can start to think about your characters and what you need to think, like, how you can think about them, what you can put on the page. And then the second half of the workshop, the n- last couple of hours, we're gonna put them in some really stressful and demanding situations and see what happens.

Tina Strachan 6:13

Oh,

Natasha Rai 6:13

that sounds like lots of fun. So it'll be hopefully fun. Yeah, yeah.

Tina Strachan 6:15

Yeah, that sounds like awesome fun. Yeah, so definitely not just been doing nothing, have you? Over, over the last month. Plus,

Natasha Rai 6:22

plus client work, yes. Yep.

Tina Strachan 6:23

Yeah. Oh, cool.

Natasha Rai 6:24

How about you, Tina?

Tina Strachan 6:25

Look, I've been having a little less on, I think- Oh, that makes sense which has actually been nice. Mm-hmm. But I've had school holidays, right? So I... It's been really good to actually just take that time and So instead of sitting in front of the computer, we went to the circus, which, uh, which was incredible, by the way. Like,

Natasha Rai 6:43

I went- I didn't even know circuses still existed well, I,

Tina Strachan 6:45

I actually don't think they call it a circus anymore, but there's still, like, a big, big top tent sort of thing. Mm. And, like, there's no animals and, that kind of thing. But it's just all, like, entertainers and performers- Oh and just so, so fun. Yeah, and just, going to the movies and going to some theme parks and just, having a good old fun time, which has been really good. And, because I had a few writing projects on the go that I've sort of, you know, handed in, so I've just come to a little point, and I did think to myself, "I'll take a little bit of time to get back on top of my admin," because I tend to really hyper-focus when I've got something that I'm trying to wrap up or that I have due, and I kind of sometimes let the rest of the admin go to the wayside. Mm. So I thought, "Okay, well, once I've handed that in, I'll just, um, try and get on top of my admin." So I've been doing that, which is, I guess, I don't know, a, a little bit easier. It's just been easier, so I've felt like I haven't been so busy. But then, you know what? I read something the other day about people who write every day, which I normally do. I do normally write every day. I've done it for a really long time, and then I realized that I haven't really been doing that, um, over the last few weeks. Like, I've l- really just been like, "Okay," 'cause the next piece that I'm gonna get stuck into is quite a full-on one, and so I know I'm gonna- Mm. Mm get super hyper-focused on that, and it won't, it won't leave me. So I thought, "No, no, just maybe take a little break." Um, so I thought that w- was going to be a good idea, and it probably is a good idea. But I read this thing the other day about Stephen King and how he writes, and... 'cause he does, like, 2,000 words a day app- apparently. 2,000 words a day every day. Doesn't, doesn't matter. 2,000 words a day. And they were talking about how that affects, uh, your brain and the processes of it being, um, similar to sports people. Mm-hmm. So, like, the feeling and the... Everything that his, that his brain is receiving from writing every day and completing this task is similar to that of athletes and... who are training every day, and that feeling of there's endorphins and there's dopamine and all that sort of thing that they're getting every day, and it's, it's sort of ki- it's kind of addictive, and it's just part of what they do.

Natasha Rai 8:49

So, so is he just... Did it say that he's working on, like, a project at a time, or just as long as he gets 2,000 words down it doesn't matter?

Tina Strachan 8:56

Uh, yeah, he's just as long as he gets 2,000 words out. Mm. I'd say he's probably always working on a project, right? Yeah. Yeah. He's just bashing those... Not bashing the books out, but they're definitely still coming. So I'd say he's probably always got something on the go. Yeah, e- I mean, even if he probably writes the words and just ditches them at some point, it's, um, just to

Natasha Rai 9:16

keep up the muscle. Does, does 2,000 wo- yeah, does 2,000 words sound like a lot to you?

Tina Strachan 9:19

It doesn't sound like a lot if you're Stephen King, I don't reckon. I feel like he's... That's his, this is his full-time job. Yeah,

Natasha Rai 9:25

that's true

Tina Strachan 9:26

I don't know. 2,000 words is like... 'Cause sometimes I can do, 2,000 words pretty quickly, but that's on a good, like, flowy day, and I've got the time to do it. But then, you know, sometimes you can do 200 words in that same time because it just didn't flow. And surely, yeah, surely, uh, uh, yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? You know, so 2,000 words, maybe it's 2,000 new words a day, and then- Mm-hmm because we all know with edits and stuff, like that's gonna... Every time he has to edit a book, which, I don't know, do you reckon Stephen King has to do much editing? Do you reckon there's any editor out there that, that's like, "I'm just gonna send all this structural editing feedback back to him," or do you think he can probably-

Natasha Rai 10:05

Surely. Like, surely

Tina Strachan 10:06

write?

Natasha Rai 10:06

Because- Do

Tina Strachan 10:07

you reckon he's just got it nailed though, and no one's really questioning him?

Natasha Rai 10:10

Well, I think if you write like he does, surely your first draft is actually like someone else's, like, version of a fifth draft. Like, even the book- Oh, surely comes out initially would be- Mm, Of a high... But I've noticed that about my work, like-

Tina Strachan 10:24

Mm,

Natasha Rai 10:24

mm what I've produced as a zero draft isn't- Yeah it's, it stinks, but it's not as stinky as- Kind of- as it used to be years ago.

Tina Strachan 10:31

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, he would, he would produce some high quality work, and I'd say the editing is... Yeah, no, I don't think anyone's probably telling him to change his storyline anyway.

Natasha Rai 10:39

But, but don't you think no matter how big you get, wouldn't you want to be edited properly? I'm not saying he's not edited properly, but wouldn't you want- Yeah an editor to be like, "You know what?"

Tina Strachan 10:49

Oh, surely.

Natasha Rai 10:50

I'm gonna, I'm gonna really make this the best possible work," even if you are Stephen King.

Tina Strachan 10:55

Yeah. Oh, and surely just to catch things 'cause we're... he's only human and-

Natasha Rai 11:00

Yeah

Tina Strachan 11:00

you know, we all, like, make mistakes or-

Natasha Rai 11:02

Exactly

Tina Strachan 11:03

you know? I guess it's their job to sort of vibe what's happening out in the world as well, so you know, may- he could maybe be touching on some things that they don't really want to.

Natasha Rai 11:15

Mm.

Tina Strachan 11:16

I don't know. I'm just making suggestions, but, you know, that's, that's what their job is, I suppose. Yeah, surely. Surely. I, I would love to know. Let's find out who his editor is and get in

Natasha Rai 11:23

touch. Exactly. Well, I mean, it's-

Tina Strachan 11:25

Or

Natasha Rai 11:25

her i've heard Richard Flanagan speak, and he's been with his editor/publisher for 30 years. Yeah. And he trusts her so much, and I've heard him say that, and so I think he's really aware that- I don't know, she e- edits him differently now, but he obviously trusts her to do it,

Tina Strachan 11:43

yeah. Yeah. That's That What a beautiful relationship to have someone- I know to work with someone for 30 years. I know. That's amazing. What I was saying- Oh, yes in the 2000 words No, no, 2000 words today is that it is like for him s- it's a muscle memory and, like, strengthening his muscle and working his muscles and like any other athlete would be training. And, um, but then it went on to say, so we- as any peak athlete, if they have a week off of any training, which I don't know if they would do that that often, but may- you know, maybe back it up a bit. But if they have any time off, it's extra super hard to get your muscles back into it- Mm like that following week. And so I was like, "Oh, crap. I've, I've sort of not ridden very much for a couple of weeks. I hope it's not gonna be, a backfire on me." Next week, but

Natasha Rai 12:26

yeah.

Tina Strachan 12:27

But we'll see. I'll let you know next time, 'cause, um, I've sort of already made the plan in my head. Okay, tomorrow morning I'm getting up and I'm starting again, which is kind of exciting as well. It

Natasha Rai 12:36

is exciting, yeah.

Tina Strachan 12:36

To get stuck back into it. So we would talk about a couple things today, won't we, Tash? Yes. And, um, the first one I guess that we wanted to talk about was book boxes.

Natasha Rai 12:46

Yes.

Tina Strachan 12:47

Yeah. Tell me, Tina. As in promotional boxes. Yeah. Yes, tell

Natasha Rai 12:49

me.

Tina Strachan 12:50

So, for those I guess that don't know what I guess a p- like a promotional book box is, so that's not, you know, the book boxes that are subscriptions that you can apply for and you get delivered, but promotional book boxes which some publishers will create for some books. And, um, I, it came to mind because I received a really beautiful book box, um, in over the last week from Penguin Random House, and it's for a book called Protector of Beyond by Shara Colette. And you haven't seen this, have you, Tash? No,

Natasha Rai 13:18

I

Tina Strachan 13:18

haven't. I'm going to show you. Look, look how cool this is.

Natasha Rai 13:22

Oh my gosh. That is so striking.

Tina Strachan 13:25

I know. Isn't it beautiful? So Protector

Natasha Rai 13:28

of

Tina Strachan 13:28

Beyond.

Natasha Rai 13:28

Oh, sorry. Yeah. 'Cause I just saw Okay. For people who cannot see, because obviously this is-

Tina Strachan 13:32

Oh

Natasha Rai 13:32

a podcast Tina is holding up what looks like the size of a Is it a shoebox size or a bit bigger? Uh,

Tina Strachan 13:38

it's a little bit smaller.

Natasha Rai 13:40

Smaller. Oh, okay. And it's this amazing image of a young person riding what looks like a, a wolf? It is incredibly striking, because on the top is the name of the book and the author, and when Tina turned it over, I could see on the flap the actual wolf, which is just amazing. Yeah. Yeah. And

Tina Strachan 13:58

it's beautiful, these deep maroons and reds- Mm-hmm and all those sorts of things. Mm-hmm. And yeah, so, so Protector of Beyond, it's the first book in a series, a middle grade series, a fantasy. It's very cool. So it's a promotional bo- box, obviously, that which they send to... They can send to, like, Bookstagrammers like, if... we're fort- I was fortunate enough to get one of these boxes as well. And, um, oh, I'll open it for you. Sorry, there's gonna be all these weird noises, which I'll try and edit out. But so it's even all printed on the inside. Oh, in the

Natasha Rai 14:28

inside it says- Yeah "Welcome to Beyond. If you spark, you fight." Great.

Tina Strachan 14:33

I know. How exciting is that? Like, honestly, they, they have just done a really great job of hyping it just with the words and the visuals and everything. We are working on our YouTube channel, aren't we, Tash? So soon- Yes people will actually be able to see this. Yes. Anyway, so, so book boxes, they look beautiful on the outside, they can look beautiful on the outside, and then they fill it with lots of cool stuff on the inside depending on what the book's about, so they can really theme it and have a lot of fun with it. For instance, Shara, so I've got this beautiful arc which isn't Like, it's black and it's got this beautiful- Mm-hmm gold writing on it, but that's not what the book cover is gonna be. That's not gonna be the final

Natasha Rai 15:03

cover, right?

Tina Strachan 15:04

Yeah, okay. No. And I've got Because they are all these different, um, characters in there, so kind of like different guards. So kind of like different houses in Harry Potter, there's all these different guards. But anyway, I'm going into the book heaps now just because I'm super excited about it, and you get these little cards which tell you, Oh what guard you're in. And, um, look, there was some other stuff, like a tattoo as well, and, um, some glow sticks- Oh and there was some fairy floss in there, but the kids have already eaten that. So, so that's But so you can have lots of fun with it and really theme it, and put little bits of food or, you know, those sort of fun stickers and things like that in there. Yeah, so super fun and a really great way of, promoting a book,

Natasha Rai 15:44

are book boxes kind of more used for certain types of books, like middle grade or YA, or d- have you seen them across different age groups, like adults and-

Tina Strachan 15:54

Yeah, I've seen them across.

Natasha Rai 15:55

Okay.

Tina Strachan 15:56

Yeah. So I guess obviously not everyone gets a book box, so it is very special when, um, your publisher has gone, not to the effort of it, but to the effort of producing it and, and I guess chosen the book f- to have a box that comes with it. And I guess it depends on what the book's about. Like, this, uh, book lends itself to all these fun sort of things as well. Mm-hmm. I think we spoke about Rebecca Armitage as well had a, had a beautiful box for The Heir Apparent because it was sent to Tasmania, it came with, like, beautiful Tasmanian honey and, um- Oh, wow a little tiara. Like a little tiara. Oh, because it's

Natasha Rai 16:26

about the royals, right?

Tina Strachan 16:28

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and some tea and, little bits and pieces like that, so lots of fun obviously not every book can have one... but, I have heard of people creating their own. And, um, some self-pub, self-published authors do this quite a lot, but, um, there's no reason why you couldn't do it, uh, yourself- Exactly. Exactly uh, to help. There'd be lots of fun things. What would you put in your book box, Tash?

Natasha Rai 16:49

I was just thinking about this. I think I would have maybe some, like, a, like a little coin- Oh but I'd have to get them, like, made. Yeah. Like, with some different things on it. Yeah. And I think I'd have some kind of like, like a cocktail mix.

Tina Strachan 17:07

Ooh,

Natasha Rai 17:08

yeah. Or like a s- or like a warming spicy tea that people could drink- Yeah while they were- Oh yeah, reading it.

Tina Strachan 17:14

That's nice. I think any of those bits and pieces that you can enjoy while you're actually reading the book to make the whole- Mm experience even-

Natasha Rai 17:22

Yeah

Tina Strachan 17:22

better. Yeah, that's exciting. Yes, this is very exciting. I can come up with lots of things.

Natasha Rai 17:26

With Shara's book when is it out? Like, how far in advance do you get these book

Tina Strachan 17:30

boxes? Right. Yeah. So her book is out in September, so what are we now? July. So a couple of months beforehand. Mm. And I think that's... uh, it also works for, I guess, Bookstagrammers or people who might promote it, then it gives them the time and the opportunity to read the book, but also to- That's right You know, post the images about it. It gives them something else to to use for content, I guess, as well. 'Cause normally arcs will go out to- Mm pre-readers, like our Bookstagram community and promotions a couple of months beforehand. So that process would normally happen. Mm. But now it's... but sometimes you can just pair it with a few little bits and pieces just to, just to make it a little bit more fun.

Natasha Rai 18:08

Give it a bit of pizzazz.

Tina Strachan 18:10

Speaking of promoting books and, especially new books and debut books we were... we wanted to have a little chat today about- an article recently that was published in The Guardian. And it's just created a bit of chat, I guess, in the community- Yeah hasn't it, so it was about Well, the title was Australia Is Publishing Books Too Quickly- Mm and Everyone Is Losing Out.

Natasha Rai 18:30

Mm.

Tina Strachan 18:31

Um, it's by Katrina Menzies Pike. And yeah, I think it just, it kind of spurred a few other little conversations and articles and things, um, around that. And I guess the, the just the overall gist of the conversation is that a lot of books are being published. I don't know, like, we Who knows what too many books is? We're not, not too sure, or how quickly. But yeah, just the idea that, um, there's so many books being published at the moment, and it's just making it hard to find, some shelf space in a bookstore for your book. And but then also that they're then- moving on from that bookshelf fairly quickly as well- Mm um, if they're not bought.

Natasha Rai 19:13

I think it's just interesting how these things, these trends change so fast in and of themselves. Like, it felt like it wasn't that long ago that we were talking about how they're, like they're not taking on too many new books, they're not taking on too many new authors, and that it's, they're going with authors who are known and can sell, and authors who are what we call mid lists, like you have decent sales but you're not a bestseller are not getting picked up. And now we've swung the other way apparently, that- Mm there's too many books and there's too many authors- Mm and everything's so fast. Mm. I guess for me, I was had more questions than anything. Like, like you said what are too many books? And, uh, what would be the Like I What's the point of it, if that is a strategy that's happening? Like- Mm because publishers also need to make money. So are they just publishing and publishing with the hope that one or two will somehow become some kind of bestseller that will just pay for the rest?

Tina Strachan 20:13

Mm.

Natasha Rai 20:13

And if that's the case, why not just target your effort into one or two and help them and support them become- Mm maybe not bestsellers, but get them out everywhere? I don't know. I'm not a publisher, so I don't really understand some of these trends or what the thinking might be behind it, but-

Tina Strachan 20:30

Yeah

Natasha Rai 20:30

it, it just had raised more questions for me than anything.

Tina Strachan 20:34

Yeah. But you would i, yeah, I agree. I guess there's so many variables as well and, and it's just impossible to tell. I wonder if it's more I was just thinking then, is it more that it's not that there's too many books being published, it's just that there's less readers and there's less bookstores? Could that actually be what the-

Natasha Rai 20:49

Maybe

Tina Strachan 20:49

what the situation is? 'Cause, you know, especially, you know, with children, we are losing our readers and and we know that we're losing our independent bookstores, and even our big chain bookstores, close some of their stores down. So, you know, perhaps that's more of the case so it's being felt even more.

Natasha Rai 21:07

Yes. And the interesting thing again about that is I know this is a very specific mention, but, um, in Sydney we've just had a new independent bookstore open- Ooh,

Tina Strachan 21:17

wow

Natasha Rai 21:17

in a time when all these things are happening. Yeah. It's called Rose Red. I'm actually gonna go and say hello next weekend. But they just It's, it's two people who I think are, like, full-time school teachers, and they've- Mm managed to open this bookshop, and they're really making it very community focused. So- Mm they're doing events. Um, they had a big launch party, which sadly I couldn't go to. But it just It made me feel so motivated, inspired, and happy- Mm, mm that someone's taking- What feels like a really big risk. Mm-hmm. So yes, all of this stuff is happening, and also there are examples like this one that are bucking the trend, like- Yeah going, "Well, you know what? We can make this work."

Tina Strachan 22:00

Mm. And

Natasha Rai 22:00

I think it is community that-

Tina Strachan 22:03

I was just going to say, I think, do you think the key thing there is that it's about community? It's not just a bookshop with-

Natasha Rai 22:10

Yes. Oh, my God books on

Tina Strachan 22:11

the shelves

Natasha Rai 22:12

I just had this, like, light bulb moment. Maybe the disconnect is, like, publishers are treating books like- a like a mass produced product like olive oil or, I don't know you know, like tinned goods, like where you just stack them- Mm or you just keep putting out different brands and... But actually, what's actually happening is a lot of people know, m- might know their local bookshop or go in there more than once or twice a year. Mm. And they have a conversation with people in the bookshop. Like, both the bookshops that are near me, every time I've gone in there, people are talking to the booksellers. Like, they're talking about- Mm "What do you think of this author?" and, "I've heard of that," and, "What do you..." So there's... That is happening. Mm. And regardless of whether you publish 50 books a week or 10 books a week, the booksellers know, and they are putting things out there that they love. So- Mm it's not... I, I, I think maybe that could be a disconnect. Like, the publishers and, You know what? I actually don't know, but it just felt like a light bulb moment where I'm like- Yeah.

Tina Strachan 23:13

I guess there's a few different ways of looking

Natasha Rai 23:16

at it. And I, and I- Yeah, like obviously if you're going to Big W or Target, like, you're probably not gonna be talking to someone. Mm. And in that case, you're probably buying books from authors you know really well.

Tina Strachan 23:24

Mm.

Natasha Rai 23:24

And that's great, because there's a market for that too. But maybe if you are someone who wants to read a bit differently or widely or wants the recommendations, you're, you're probably gonna ask, right?

Tina Strachan 23:35

Yeah. I think so. So it's more than just the book or the product, like if we call- Mm if we talk about it like it's a product and... But yeah, definitely I guess in those deep discounts, it's, it is, it's a product on a shelf like everything else, and that's just how they're designed. But I love that there's a new bookshop opening. That just gives me the shivers. That's so amazing. Because it is, yeah, it is so much more about the community and the books and the feelings that they're being they're bringing to the reader. And you know, this article, this particular article I guess that's started this conversation recently is it did talk, um, about that, and publishers wanting to, have the time and the space to pour into every single book, I guess, and, and making sure that the books find their ways into the hands of the right readers and, it's, it is a business. Like every business, it's trying to make money, and they've gotta find ways of doing it, and especially we know in this climate with, you can't start increasing the price of books. People can't... They're struggling to pay for fuel and food, And it has become a luxury item. Yeah, I, I agree it's, it's more than just the book, isn't it? It's about the community and, and the feeling and the, the vibe and getting people together. And that's what I always think about when, you know, I think about I- 'cause I've always had these fantasies of opening a bookstore, which I know lots of people probably do. Oh, me too. Yes. But it's not. It's actually- And like I've gone a long way down that thought path to the point where it's like how many books You know, my husband's like, "Well, how many books would you have to sell in a day to, to, you know, make it worthwhile?" And I'm like, "Oh, God, I didn't even think about actually the math." No, but I, I I mean, I did, but I didn't I was like, "Oh, but it's actually not about that." It's about hosting book launches. It's about having a place where kids can come and read. It's about having a place where adults can come and have a book club and have a discussion about books and, you know, you gotta sell some coffee so people can sit there and read and have coffee. And it was funny when I thought about it, all the things that I thought and had these plans for this bookshop, very few of them were actually about selling a book on a shelf. I was like, "Oh, don't Actually being at the till and selling a book on the shelf, that's, that was actually the smallest part of-

Natasha Rai 25:32

Mm

Tina Strachan 25:33

of Even though it's fundamental, isn't it? But it's about having readers and, and yes, you've gotta sell books off the shelf, but it's about And you'll do that by encouraging that community and-

Natasha Rai 25:43

Community

Tina Strachan 25:43

hub

Natasha Rai 25:43

yeah Exactly.

Tina Strachan 25:44

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yes, we need more bookstores. Okay, let's chat about this more. Tash, we might be able to start something together. But but it is interesting because, um, she did In that article they did chat to Jennifer Mills, who is the incoming chair of the Australian Society of Authors, and what she What they quoted her as saying is, "Authors are really reliant on community, on word of mouth recommendation, and the authentic enthusiasm of independent booksellers who hand sell books to readers." So it certainly- Mm although, although the article was kinda saying books coming out thick and fast, they're leaving the shelves very quickly you know, it is She did bring it back around to-

Natasha Rai 26:22

Yeah to,

Tina Strachan 26:23

Emphasize exactly what we just said.

Natasha Rai 26:24

And also, I don't know if it's in that article itself, but I have read something. Uh, yeah, so it's something around the amount of time it actually takes for a book to get into someone's hands because of- Mm. Word of mouth or a book club- Yeah or a recommendation.

Tina Strachan 26:40

They quoted some researchers who looked- Mm-hmm into books and, um, how long I guess they were spending on the shelves. And they said that new titles usually get three months on- Okay, three months bookshop shelves. Yeah, okay. If the title doesn't shift within that window, it disappears, usually returned or remaindered, in some cases never to be seen again, which s- sounds not great.

Natasha Rai 27:00

Well, it's Yeah. And- Yeah, what are your

Tina Strachan 27:01

thoughts

Natasha Rai 27:01

on

Tina Strachan 27:01

that?

Natasha Rai 27:02

Well, then it becomes really difficult because, you wanna make it easy for people. A- and again, I'm If I was a bookseller, I m- probably would have a totally different answer to this, because there is the physical shelf space issue. But if someone comes in and they buy a book based on a recommendation by a bookseller, say, and they go away and they read it a month later 'cause they, they've got a massive to-read pile like most of us. And then by the time they read it and they're like, "Oh my God, I love this book," and they tell all their friends, and then their friends go in and the book's gone- Mm and it's actually a challenge because you have to order it online or something, a lot of people aren't gonna worry about it. Like, unless the recommendation or the person who's recommended it goes, "You have to read this book. It will change your life." Like, most people are gonna be like- Mm "Oh, well, it's gone."

Tina Strachan 27:45

I'll pick up something else. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder, it'd be interesting to know how many people, how many readers are actually reading a book within the first three months of it coming out. I don't know- Exactly if I've looked into that. Like, like, I don't know if I ever have. I, I- it probably takes me that long to hear about it, to know about it, and then-

Natasha Rai 28:03

Exactly

Tina Strachan 28:03

to go and find it eventually maybe on the shelf. And if it's just not-

Natasha Rai 28:06

Yeah

Tina Strachan 28:06

there, I might actually just not even remember it, like you, like you were saying. Exactly. Um, which is interesting, isn't it? Mm. But like you said-

Natasha Rai 28:12

And, and I think Yeah, I was gonna say that. I think unless you're a fan and it's an author who's written- Mm several books, like a Stephen King- y- yeah, you're right. You probably wouldn't get to the book in the first three months.

Tina Strachan 28:25

Yeah. Mm. So that just sounds We're trying W- we really didn't wanna sound depre- depressing about this. And I guess, I guess it's just, it is a reality though, isn't it? And you work sometimes in a bookshelf, don't you, Tash? Yes, I do. So you know what it's like. You know that there is, there's no just empty space on those shelves. It is chock-full. And- Mm-hmm when a space opens up, another one has to go in. And, uh, the person the, who is actually buying the books for their- Mm bookstore needs to decide, "Well, I need to actually make space now, 'cause I don't have space. So I have to send some back." And look, that could be in the first three months, but it, you know, it could be giving it a bit longer than that. I'm sure every book- And every title has its own, sort of merits. If it's maybe sold a few earlier but not for a little while, they're not gonna automatically just send it back. They might think, "Oh, I'll give it another couple of months." But it is the reality that they do just have to make space for them- Mm to, um, and make space for new books coming in. How they choose I think is very difficult, and I'd hate to be in that position.

Natasha Rai 29:24

Okay, so, so that everyone isn't so depressed listening to this what would you suggest to say Actually, let's do, like, let's find a couple of suggestions for readers, and then suggestions for writers- Who might either, A, have a contract or who are thinking about self-publication or self-publishing- Mm and how they can get their book out there.

Tina Strachan 29:44

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, look, I think it is a it's a reality. I D- have you though actually, before we do, have you actually experienced that yourself, Tash? Did you notice that? I noticed with my first book, and it went into Big W, it was a very It was kind of like once it was, it had its time and it was gone. And I've no- now since that's happened I've been looking at other authors that I know, and even multi-publish, big name authors, like I, it, I see it come in and I see it go. And yeah, it, so that definitely is a thing. But I found with the smaller stores they, the books have sort of, my books have been hanging around a bit longer, so I definitely think it's those bigger chains- Mm where it's a bit faster. Have you no- have you noticed that? So,

Natasha Rai 30:26

so, so mine never made it into a Big W. It was always only sold in like, bookshops as opposed to, like, department stores. Most of them have gone, have disappeared.

Tina Strachan 30:37

Mm.

Natasha Rai 30:37

Um, so there's a cou- like one or two maybe copies every now and then I might see, but most of them have gone, but it is over a year. Mm. Having said that, it is absolutely delightful because I'm still getting, not a lot, but every now and then a message from a reader going, "I just read it."

Tina Strachan 30:52

Mm.

Natasha Rai 30:53

Mm. So I'm like, "This is really cool that-" Yeah over a year later it's still-

Tina Strachan 31:07

Kind of people- Mm mentioning it or recommending it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and you know what's always... It's still in libraries. Yes. That's a thing. Our books are still in libraries, and that's- Yes a very important and positive note, is libraries are a fantastic way of your books getting out, out there. And, and you know what? It's free for people, so that's- Exactly even better. Exactly. And, you know, with our ELR/PLR payments that we get from publishing a book now, um, that goes into the libraries. We still... authors still get benefited off from that. And I find... And schools as well, so school libraries are also a big thing. So I have found, uh, I guess doing events and this all comes back to community as well, doesn't it? Doing events and actually being out in person is how I think you can shift the needle on that and- Keep selling your books, 'cause your books are still around. They are still... As long as they're still in print, you can, try and book as many s- events as you can. School visits as much as you can. I'm doing a, a special episode in a couple of weeks on school visits. So, uh, tune in for that one if you're not sure how to do that or need some tips. But you know, going to school visits hitting the road, going and seeing your, your local booksellers or your booksellers and just, um, asking to pop in and doing little workshops. You know, an author talk. They'll often order in some books especially for it. I think that's- Mm a really good way of making sure that it's still staying current and still being out there.

Natasha Rai 32:32

And I think that if you don't have the capacity to do a lot of those things, like events and workshops, say I think a good way to just keep your book in a shop beyond the three months is really establishing a relationship with the bookseller. And I know we've said this over and over, but it's really important. And also- It just helps the bookseller know who you are and who's around, especially if you've got a bookshop in your neighborhood or close to you. Booksellers love to say, "Our local author," yeah. Like, "This author lives locally." Mm-hmm. So you're actually helping them as well to have a way to sell your book.

Tina Strachan 33:07

Yeah.

Natasha Rai 33:07

Um, and you know, and lots of booksellers are like lots of readers, as in they wanna read it all, but they can't. Yeah. So if you go in, introduce yourself well before your book's coming out, hopefully, just so you know, y- they have a bit of time, and you can just tell them how they can sell it. You can help them. Like, you can give them the little pitch. You can tell them you're available. Um, you can I know for example, Roaring Stories, they do little quick videos of their authors for their website-

Tina Strachan 33:35

Oh,

Natasha Rai 33:35

that's cool um, on their Insta page. So you just, you can- Mm-hmm so just little things like that, and you can make it easy for them by asking them what would be helpful. Um, and I think a, a tip for readers is I am very ferocious when I give reading recommendations. I basically start my recommendation going, "You just have to read this. There's no other option." And then I tell them what they ha- like my friends, what they have to read, and you Nine times out of 10 they're like, "Oh, okay," and then they rush out and get it. So- I think if you really love a book and you wanna tell your friends or family about it, just be really ferocious. And you know what? Yeah You can even buy them copies as presents

Tina Strachan 34:13

That's a great idea. Yeah. And contact the author, I'm sure they would love to s- to sign it as well. Uh, really. Yeah. They would. They would love to sign it. Yeah. And that's Yeah, that's a great idea. And I guess for those, And I guess if you're in the midst of a book coming out soon and wanting to know how you can, help with this, publishers are so open and really like the idea of authors helping to sell the, the book, some publishing houses w- don't have They're small and they don't have publicists. So just working with them, I guess, 'cause, you know- Mm-hmm all these publishers, they are doing it They're doing the job because they love books. They would love nothing more than to just- Exactly pour their heart and soul and time into every single one of them, but, they can't. Yeah. It's, it's- Exactly everyone has deadlines. And w- just saying, "What can I do? How c- give me some tips or some advice," or, "What if I do this and this and this?" And they would love to hear that, and they can tell you how you can, be pro- proactive about the marketing or publicity- Exactly or

Natasha Rai 35:11

And what they You could even go a step further if you feel confident enough, especially if you have skills like you work in events or publish marketing, or Anyway, you've got a skill about, you know, doing something. Even if your skill is, "I'm really, really shy, but I'm very confident talking to my family and friends," you can give them ideas. Like, "I don't wanna do a big event at a library, but what I can do is I can go to my local my, my kids' local rugby club and do a little thing there," or, "I can mention it to my parents' group." I don't know. Mm-hmm. There's lots and lots of ways you can get your book out there. And if you feel confident, you can present some ideas to your publisher or your publicist, and they'll can tell you, "Oh, yes. Let's do that. Let's try that. Let's do that."

Tina Strachan 35:54

Yeah. And- And 'cause they have really good contacts, too. Exactly. So they might not have the time to, to work on the- Mm work on it with you, but they definitely have the contacts and can just put you in- Exactly in front of the right people as well- Exactly which is really handy. Obviously, if you're not there yet with a contract or, um, s- any of your books signed Even if you are, I think you just gotta bring everything back to remembering the why of why you're writing. Publishing is great, right? Like, it's a f- what a fun ride. How lovely to have, you know, a publishing house- Yes uh, have support you and enjoy your work so much that they actually wanna invest in you and print it. But always remembering that I was a writer long before any publisher ever saw my work or I signed any contract. And I did that with n- I wrote with no intentions of being published, just because of the pure joy of it, literal joy, you know? And I would still be doing that today anyway just because I enjoyed it.

Natasha Rai 36:53

I mean, and you are, or Tina, because a lot of-

Tina Strachan 36:55

Yeah

Natasha Rai 36:55

your projects that you're working on you don't have a contract yet- Yeah and you don't have- Yeah yeah. So you are doing it- Yeah for the love of it.

Tina Strachan 37:02

Yep, that's it. I have so many ideas I just love to write them, but they're not, they're not signed with anyone. Exactly. You know? Yeah. It's, so it's it is just because I love it and I can't not do it, and I it is always just bringing that back and I guess just remembering that the publishing side of it is all just a nice little bonus. What do you think, Tash? Mm.

Natasha Rai 37:21

Totally. Totally. Like, I'm writing something new as well. I have no idea about how I'll sell it or even if I can sell it, and it doesn't matter 'cause I'm just- Loving it.

Tina Strachan 37:31

Yeah.

Natasha Rai 37:32

It's flowing, yep.

Tina Strachan 37:33

Yeah, it's the joy. Mm. Chase the joy. Yes. And yeah, just remember and then, yeah, maybe you'll get published one day,

Natasha Rai 37:39

and

Tina Strachan 37:39

how cool

Natasha Rai 37:40

would that be? Maybe I won't, and it doesn't matter. No. 'Cause I just wanna write it.

Tina Strachan 37:43

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Natasha Rai 37:43

Yeah.

Tina Strachan 37:44

Yep. Mm. That's it, as long as it's bringing you joy. Oh, that's beautiful. Well, some If you are writing, um- Yes There seems to be lots of, uh, opportunities at the moment, Tash, to help people with their writing.

Natasha Rai 37:54

Mm-hmm.

Tina Strachan 37:55

Um, there was a few around. Did you wanna, um, have a chat- Yes about one of them?

Natasha Rai 37:58

So the, the latest one is Oh, God, it sounds amazing. It's a partnership between Create New South Wales and Writing New South Wales, and they've just announced, it's called Stories Matter, um, and it's fellowships. I had a very quick look at the guidelines. I, I'm pretty sure you have to be a resident of New South Wales-

Tina Strachan 38:16

Me too, yeah

Natasha Rai 38:16

or, or, or mainly live here.

Tina Strachan 38:18

Mm.

Natasha Rai 38:18

Um, so yep, so if you're in another state, mm, sorry. But, uh, it's still an amazing opportunity. Mm-hmm. So there's, um, three categories, and I think it's 10 fellowship places in total. And so it is an emerging writer, a mid-career, and then an established writer category. And basically you get $50,000-

Tina Strachan 38:41

Ooh, okay

Natasha Rai 38:42

to write essentially. Mm-hmm. Or like, you know, to, to give you time so that you can have that money to be able to write.

Tina Strachan 38:48

Mm-hmm.

Natasha Rai 38:48

So go onto the Writing New South Wales website or the Create New South Wales website, and you will have You'll see the n- the application form, all the criteria. Applications close on the 27th of July. So you've still got lots of time.

Tina Strachan 39:02

And it's also for illustrators and playwrights too.

Natasha Rai 39:05

Oh, thank you.

Tina Strachan 39:05

Mm. Thank you.

Natasha Rai 39:06

Yep. But yeah, just check out the criteria for each category, 'cause it's pretty clear what you need to have, Had published or not, depending on the category that you think you might be in.

Tina Strachan 39:18

So by the time this episode goes to air, you'll still have a couple of weeks, so no excuses.

Natasha Rai 39:21

Exactly.

Tina Strachan 39:22

Get onto it.

Natasha Rai 39:22

Exactly, yeah.

Tina Strachan 39:23

And then another one that's closing also around the same time, uh, you might know a bit more about this, Tash, as well, the Wheeler Centre's program, The Next Chapter.

Natasha Rai 39:30

Ah, The Next Chapter, yes. The Next Chapter is for emerging writers,

Tina Strachan 39:36

Yep, so $15,000 stipend paired with a mentor to work for 12 months to progress a major writing project, and that closes on the 31st of July. So still a few weeks to- Yes, excellent get in there and check out those details.

Natasha Rai 39:49

Yes.

Tina Strachan 39:51

Tash, any top tips for our audience today?

Natasha Rai 39:55

Oh, keep writing.

Tina Strachan 40:00

That's a good one. Keep writing, and don't forget the why and the joy of it. So even- Yes though there's, you know, a lot of, negative press, I guess, at the moment, as, yes, in publishing and writing, but in the whole entire world at the moment when it comes to writing, just we do it 'cause we love it. So keep doing it, and yeah, it will surely always be positive if you're doing it for those reasons. Exactly.

Natasha Rai 40:27

And actually, I just wanna adapt that a little bit to say, and you don't have to write 2,000 words every single day.

Tina Strachan 40:32

No, don't.

Natasha Rai 40:33

Because, you know, Stephen King does it full time. But it depends. Like, that's his job. So m- most of us do not have that as our main job. No. So do what keeps you interested and keeps the joy alive.

Tina Strachan 40:45

Yeah, that's a good one. Oh, I love that, Tash. So lovely talking to you again today. You

Natasha Rai 40:49

too.

Tina Strachan 40:50

And, um, hope you have a wonderful writing month. Maybe next month you'll say that you didn't have much on. Let's hope so.

Natasha Rai 40:58

Should we make

Tina Strachan 40:58

that your goal? Should we make that your goal?

Natasha Rai 40:59

No.

Tina Strachan 41:00

I'll-

Natasha Rai 41:00

Because I've got my workshop coming up and my festival. Actually, yeah, I'll have lots of fun things to talk about next time. Oh,

Tina Strachan 41:05

cool. Very exciting. All right. Uh, well, I look forward to chatting then, Tash.

Natasha Rai 41:09

You too. You too. Have a good month. Bye. Bye.

Speaker 5 41:11

Thank you for listening to another episode of The Book Deal Podcast. If you are enjoying the pod, we'd really appreciate you following or sharing the show in your podcast directory, checking us out on Instagram and Facebook, or supporting us through our Patreon community at patreon.com/thebookdealpodcast