The Book Deal

Representation and writing magical stories with Jasmin McGaughey

• The Book Deal • Season 2 • Episode 97

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0:00 | 58:40

Natasha Rai interview's Jasmine McGaughey, a Torres Strait Islander and African American writer and editor, about her debut YA speculative novel Moonlight and Dust (shortlisted for the 2025 VPLAs). She pitches the story of 16-year-old Zillah returning from Brisbane to Cairns after her sister is hospitalised, discovering “moon dust” that gives kids weekend-long magical powers, and investigating its link to her sister’s fate. McGaughey discusses developing the book from a short story into a novella during a creative writing master’s, challenges writing Torres Strait Islander representation in speculative fiction, fears of tokenism, and the value of editorial collaboration. She explains getting agent Alex Adsett through children’s book work, submitting to publishers, and working with Allen & Unwin, including cover design. She also reflects on the exhaustion of launch publicity, balancing freelance work, craft confidence after debut, tax issues like income averaging, trends in YA, and her advice to write what you love. 

00:00 Podcast Introduction
00:56 Meet Jasmine McGaughey
01:39 Moonlight and Dust Pitch
03:36 From Short Story to Novel
04:50 Writing in Academia
07:12 Representation and Tokenism
09:33 Finding Zillah’s Voice
13:09 Magic With Meaning
16:44 Revising After the Master’s
19:11 Getting an Agent
20:34 Submitting to Publishers
24:43 Allen and Unwin Feedback
29:07 Long Road to Publication
29:37 Editing Collaboration
30:36 Editor Turned Author
31:33 Cover Design Magic
32:47 Cover Reactions
36:23 Launch Overwhelm
40:23 Freelance Versus Craft
44:01 Money Tax Survival
46:18 Publishing Trends Talk
52:17 Writing Routine Reset
55:26 Reading Romantasy
56:32 Advice And Farewell

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The Book Deal Podcast Where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books.

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We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals, to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal.

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So no matter what stage of writing you're at, we've got you covered. I'm Tina Strachan.

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I'm Madeleine Cleary.

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And I'm Natasha Rai.

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And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors.

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One deal at a time. The Book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters which it's recorded on, and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.

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Jasmine McGaughey is a Torres Strait Islander and African American writer and editor. She is the author of Ash Bhatti's collection of children's books illustrated by Jade Goodwin and Mary Fowler's children's books illustrated by Kate James. Jasmine is a Black and Write editor alum and has written for Overland, Kill Your Darlings, SBS Voices, and Griffith Review, and co-edited Words to Sing the World Alive. Her debut YA book, Moonlight and Dust, was shortlisted for the 2025 VPLAs

Natasha Rai

Hey, Jasmine. Welcome to The Book Deal.

Jasmin McGaughey

Uh, hi. Thank you for having me.

Natasha Rai

My pleasure. Um, so if you're a regular listener or not, we always ask our guests to give us their elevator pitch. So could I please have your elevator pitch for Moonlight and Dust?

Jasmin McGaughey

Yes, okay. It's been a while, but let me have a go. Um, Moonlight and Dust is a young adult speculative fiction novel that centers around, um, a protagonist called Zillah. Zillah's 16. She's a Torres Strait Islander girl who has spent most of her schooling life in Brisbane at boarding school, and is returning to Cairns to attend the high school where her big sister goes. But at the very start of her story, something happens to her sister which puts her in hospital, and Zillah has to go to the school by herself, and she stumbles across this stuff called, um, moon dust, and moon dust gives kids magical powers just for the weekend. Um, and Zillah has to figure out if it's a good thing, if it's a bad thing, and if it is connected to what happened to her big sister. How's that? Excellent

Natasha Rai

pitch.

Jasmin McGaughey

Okay. That

Natasha Rai

was good

Jasmin McGaughey

It's, it's, it's like been like so long now that I kind of forget certain- Yes I mean, it hasn't been that long. It's been a year since it came out.

Natasha Rai

And- Yeah, 'cause it came out last year, right? Yeah.

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah Around this time last year. And like I, you know, get things mixed up of like, so Moondust used to be called Fairy Dust, and just like- Oh little things like that, and I've just forgotten or mixed up the order of when I thought of, thought them up. No,

Natasha Rai

no, I, I get it, because i- interestingly enough, uh, Madeleine and Tina, my co-hosts, we were just talking about this in our group chat.

Jasmin McGaughey

Mm-hmm.

Natasha Rai

Like, um, she had to do a pitch recent- like an elevator pitch for her novel, but The Butterfly Women, she's like, "I couldn't remember." And then I remember I did this pitch for Onslaught, and I was- Yeah I just said this two lines, and I, I made it sound so lame and boring. I was like- No. Yeah, because I'd totally forgotten. Like, I was like I've-

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah

Natasha Rai

I've forgotten how to do it now, but that was very good.

Jasmin McGaughey

Oh, cool. Thank you.

Natasha Rai

Um, so when did you start writing it?

Jasmin McGaughey

Ugh, I started writing it a little while ago. So it was part of my, um... I did a master of creative writing, and it was the like 40,000-word novella. Before that though, it was actually a short story. Um, uh, what was the book called? Speculative Futures, I think. Um, and yeah, it was a short story, and I was kind of like responding to the question I gave myself of like, what would an island girl do if she was in twilight, and got a boyfriend who was like a vampire or like a superhero? 'Cause I also loved Smallville when I was a teenager, Smallville and Twilight. Um, and in my mind, the island girl would break up with him because she would not wanna keep the secret from her family. Um, and so that's kind of the central theme of the book.

Natasha Rai

Yeah. And

Jasmin McGaughey

developed it into a novella, and then a novel after I finished, um,

Natasha Rai

uni. That is such a great question. That really is. A- um, so- Was it difficult to kind of draw it out from a short story to novella to... 'Cause it is a, I guess, full-length novel now, right?

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah.

Natasha Rai

Yeah.

Jasmin McGaughey

Um, in a way. Like, I... Have you done, like, w- creative writing in academia, like in research or whatever? You- No, I

Natasha Rai

haven't.

Jasmin McGaughey

No did. It's like, I mean, I only did the master's. I haven't done a PhD or anything, but, like, I didn't love the process. Like, I had great support, lovely supervisors, but it was really difficult because I was... My research question was kind of around the whole, like, how to write Torres Strait Islanders specifically into sci-fi and fantasy, into speculative fiction, and I was really, really struggling because there were no, um, instances of traditionally published Torres Strait Islander books that had fantasy and sci-fi, right? So, like, there was this whole, like, complicated thing that I just got really caught up with, um, and obsessed over and it was like, well, the reader's either gonna think that this is all, like, culture, and it's not, it's just r- like, kids with random magical powers, or they're gonna think that it is, like, the opposite of that, and- Yeah any culture I do put in they'll think is made up or, or something like that. So, um, yeah, I found it really difficult. Um, but I don't know. I did it. It's, it's there now. Oh,

Natasha Rai

well, sure. I mean, it's, it's fantastic. I loved reading it.

Jasmin McGaughey

Oh. Yeah.

Natasha Rai

Um, so did you have to look overseas? Like, are there examples of this type of work in other markets?

Jasmin McGaughey

Um, yeah. There, I mean, there's a little bit in Australia, um- Oh, there

Natasha Rai

is? Okay

Jasmin McGaughey

with Aboriginal writers. Um, Amber- Mm Luna Quammelina is an amazing example. She's got, um, a whole heap of books that are, um, really good. And then there's stuff in the adult space as well, like Claire G. Coleman and Mikayla Saunders.

Natasha Rai

Yep.

Jasmin McGaughey

Um, and, and so that was really, really helpful to, to lean on, but then there was nothing about Torres Strait Islanders, so, um, yeah, I was able- Which is pretty shocking considering- Yeah it's only '26, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or 2025 when it came out, but yeah,

Natasha Rai

still shocking. Yeah.

Jasmin McGaughey

Well, there's only, like, um... So there's only, like, two adult fiction novels and one YA and one middle grade really that are, like s- that's centered, uh, around Torres Strait Islander culture, people, and written by us as well. Gosh. Um, yeah. But

Natasha Rai

you're like, I guess, the trailblazer

Jasmin McGaughey

in many a way. Oh, no. Well, I mean,

Natasha Rai

you are. You are. Because were you thinking about publication when you were doing your master's and when you were writing longer form?

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah. Yeah, I was, um- Yes. I mean, that was I've, I've always wanted to be a writer, a published writer- Okay and yeah.

Natasha Rai

And so I hate asking this question, but did it worry you that you were writing something that was quite different or not as well known or marketed in this, in, you know, in this industry or in this time and place now?

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah. Like, I was so worried. I was like, "Oh, is..." Like, are publishers, if they do want it, are they only gonna want it because it's, like, there's not much Torres Strait Island, you know, and 'cause there's this big growth of Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander writing, are they just gonna wanna jump on the bandwagon and publish it for that and it might actually be a really bad novel? Um, and so I- No yeah, I was worried- Yeah that, like, that was gonna be the thing and- Like

Natasha Rai

a tokenism thing.

Jasmin McGaughey

Like a tokenism thing, yeah, exactly.

Natasha Rai

Right. Okay.

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah. Did that cross your mind at all when you were writing and submitting? Um,

Natasha Rai

that's a good question. I mean- I don't know. Um, I think I was more noticing that there were just not many Indian Australian writers. Like, like you were saying, I can count a few.

Jasmin McGaughey

Mm.

Natasha Rai

I, I could count a few more Sri Lankan Australian writers.

Jasmin McGaughey

Mm.

Natasha Rai

But, um, it didn't cross my... I was more w- I was more thinking that they just wouldn't be able to place it somewhere because-

Jasmin McGaughey

Mm

Natasha Rai

like, you know how, I don't know, well, I'm gonna make a generalized statement, but I'll just make it more specific, but I just felt like when you're writing a character that's not in the mainstream or in a minority group or, or a culture that's not recognized or known about, like, their culture is the story, which kind of sucks- Yeah 'cause I'm like, "Well, why does it- Yeah have to be about this person being Indian or being queer or- Mm-hmm whatever," you know?

Jasmin McGaughey

Yep, yep. That's what I- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I just wanted to write, like, a fun, like, we deserve fun stories too that, that aren't always, like, steep. Not that culture can't be fun, but y- you know what I mean.

Natasha Rai

Yeah, like, it's not a- like, the protagonist's, um, challenge or issues doesn't come because of their culture. Yes,

Jasmin McGaughey

exactly.

Natasha Rai

They just belong to this place- Yeah or, or family- Yeah or community, then that's just how it is, right?

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Natasha Rai

Um, so I'm really curious about Zilla's voice. Um, 'cause when I was reading it, I really got a sense of that kind of tension between that, you know that age where you feel like you're an adult but you're not really.

Jasmin McGaughey

Mm.

Natasha Rai

And the things that you have to choose that you keep to yourself-

Jasmin McGaughey

Mm

Natasha Rai

and what you tell your family, especially if you're a close family and especially when you've got a lot of community around you who are like, "Tell us everything."

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah.

Natasha Rai

Um, yeah, I really, I was really appreciating that tension that you s- you captured so beautifully.

Jasmin McGaughey

Oh, thank you. Well, g- good- Mm 'cause that was, that was I think the main thing. Mm. 'Cause the story itself changed a lot, but the thing that stayed the same was Zilla and her relationships with the, the other characters in the book, um, particularly her family members.

Natasha Rai

Yeah. Yeah. So how, like, how did you, how did you kind of find a way into her or how did she find a way into you? Do you remember? I,

Jasmin McGaughey

no, I don't remember. Oh. I, I mean, in a way I think 'cause it was part of that study, o- I had to... I was very intentional and I... 'Cause it's, like, the first, like, long form thing that I've written that's this long. Um, I definitely put a lot of my own voice and my own experiences in there 'cause, uh, yeah, write what you know and all of that. It was just a little bit easier to, to go from there. Um, but I don't know, like- Yeah, I don't know. Sorry. Okay,

Natasha Rai

that's fine. Um, did y- did it, did it change while you were writing it, do you remember? Or did it feel like once you got into it, it was fairly like i- it flowed for you?

Jasmin McGaughey

Her voice was quite- Yeah the same. I think- Yeah it flowed. Um, it was never so much her, it was the things happening around her that I really struggled to write and come up with, and was so thankful that there were some great editors who helped me.

Natasha Rai

Oh, like, like what?

Jasmin McGaughey

Like plot. Okay. I know it's like the main thing of like writing a novel, but like- It w- because it had changed so much and because I came with it with these, like, I guess ulterior motives of, like, having something that was representative of my people and culture, um, I got tangled with, you know, the, the things that are secret in the book and that are revealed and, like, and I wasn't sure what was gonna be obvious to readers or what wasn't gonna be obvious and, yeah, and what was too much magic, not enough magic and, and

Natasha Rai

things like

Jasmin McGaughey

that. Yeah. Yeah.

Natasha Rai

S- so in terms of that plot that you were trying to work out, how, how much of that short story is in the novel now or is it totally different, that how it started? It- Yeah

Jasmin McGaughey

almost different. So the short story's called The Breakup, and it's, spoiler, it's Zilla- Oh is breaking up with her boyfriend Artie 'cause she learns that he can fly. Um, and so all that's really kept the same is that Zilla's the main character, there's a guy she's interested in called Artie- Oh and he may or may not have some superhero abilities. Um, and that's it. Yeah.

Natasha Rai

Okay. Right. Okay. Yeah. So, so it was more the idea of their dynamic that you took into the, into the novel.

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah.

Natasha Rai

Yeah.

Jasmin McGaughey

And this whole, like, you know, family has a big impact, a big influence- Yes on Zilla, and so, like, for the novel I had to put, like, a magical kind of tool to keep her from telling people because she, in my mind- Mm she would tell people. Um-

Natasha Rai

Mm.

Jasmin McGaughey

And yeah, so there's magic that stops her from doing that.

Natasha Rai

Yeah. Mm. And you know, like, the I'm gonna have to speak around it 'cause I don't wanna give it away 'cause it's so beautiful, but the f- one of the main things these young adults or these adolescents use their magic powers for-

Jasmin McGaughey

Mm

Natasha Rai

is very specific.

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah.

Natasha Rai

Um, and I don't wanna say too much about that, but 'cause what I was really noticing is in generally superhero type films and narratives where someone has a power- Yeah it's used of course to help others-

Jasmin McGaughey

Mm

Natasha Rai

but it's used in this weird arbitrary way like- Mm "Oh, there's someone falling out of a building. Let's go save them." Yeah. "Oh, there's a fire. Let's go put it out." Yeah. But it's just like these random acts of- Yeah whatever, whereas this felt really focused and very considered and- Yeah much more meaningful. Aw, thank,

Jasmin McGaughey

oh, thank

Natasha Rai

you. Yeah. And I really loved, I loved how beautiful and generous how these people use their kind of gifts or powers. How did that come into the world- Um that you built?

Jasmin McGaughey

Well, I think I, I, well, I just looked at it like a, with an indigenous lens, I guess, in that like, okay, if I had all these superheroes, or me and my friends and family had all these superpowers, sorry, um, we would try and do some good. And there's, you know, this c- climate change and everything that's happening is, is quite, um, catastrophic really in the Torres Strait. In my aka my grandmother's islands are really low-lying islands, and we're seeing the waters rising and really encroaching on where people live, where people are buried. And I, I know that, you know, w- with some superpowers we wouldn't necessarily be able to fix that easily. But I know that, um, especially young people, um- Mm would, would try and turn their focus to doing good in that way, as, as they do without superpowers. They're the ones going on strike and- Mm things like that. Um- Mm. And, and so that just felt like a, um, realistic kind of-

Natasha Rai

Yeah

Jasmin McGaughey

choice. You know?

Natasha Rai

It, it almost feels like, when I think about it now, that these kids- They turn their attention even though it's meant to be a magical power, but it's like if we all turned our attention to what's important in our lives and dialed up our empathy and compassion-

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah

Natasha Rai

we would all be in that kind of magical space of doing things for each other and just being connected.

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I feel like I remember being in high school, you know, and so much just felt possible. And I guess I'm like- Yeah older, cynical now where it doesn't feel like as possible, but, um, I, yeah, I really loved that part of being a teenager. Yeah. There's lots to not like about it, but I did like that part.

Natasha Rai

Maybe we have more fight in us or something when we're younger. Yeah. Like, we, we- Yeah understand the structures in place, but at the same time we're like, "You know what?"

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah.

Natasha Rai

I can take it down."

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah. Yeah,

Natasha Rai

exactly. Or at least, or, or at least rebel in some way or- Yeah have a voice against it, whereas maybe when we get older it, everything just feels so hard. And I guess we have more to lose 'cause we start to gain things like, you know, jobs and-

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah

Natasha Rai

financial challenges, blah, blah, blah, and all of that gets in the way.

Jasmin McGaughey

Definitely. You know? I mean, our frontal lobe develops and we realize that it's- Oh,

Natasha Rai

yeah. a

Jasmin McGaughey

lot harder to, like, save the world.

Natasha Rai

That bloody frontal lobe.

Jasmin McGaughey

I know. Um, but yeah.

Natasha Rai

So, um, once you finished your master's, what did you have in terms of this novel? What was the product that you came out with?

Jasmin McGaughey

Um, it was a 40,000 word novella. Mm-hmm. Um, I did not love it, um, so I sat on it for like a while. Okay. It was like a couple years and it maybe-

Natasha Rai

What, what didn't, what didn't you like about it?

Jasmin McGaughey

I can't even remember. I think it was the fact that I just really struggled in the master's. And I hadn't, like not outwardly you wouldn't know, you know, I met every deadline and, um, was able to pass without too much issue, but like internally I felt a lot of com- like, I was just really anxious about it and so I didn't get to, like, enjoy the process. Um, I felt I was I, I set myself up really to f- not fail, but like to struggle because I s- didn't just write for the love of it. I, I was writing for a reason, and part of the reason was, yes, because it's study and I need to finish something, and part of the reason was, yes, for representation. Yeah. And so it, yeah, it didn't get the, like the just free joy that I r- had when I, before study. Um- and all of that. So, uh, yeah, so I just needed some time. Mm-hmm. And then I came back to it and worked on it a little bit with my agent, and then I was like, "I can't do any more, I just really need editorial feedback," and so we went to a few people who we trusted- Okay to see what the-

Natasha Rai

So can I just go back a bit? Mm. So in between taking a break from it, were you wr- writing other things? Were you writing for pleasure?

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah, I was doing, um... I got to do these children's books, um- Right yeah, for, for Ashbody, and so I got to do, like, a heap of them in between, which was really good, and, um, it was really fun because they were quite quick. You know, they're a few thousand words, so I didn't have to worry about getting something over 70,000 or, um... And so I was working on them, so I was happily distracted and still feeling very much in the industry and working at a bookstore, um, and doing some freelance editing and things.

Natasha Rai

Okay, so you were kind of doing, uh, exercising your creative muscle.

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I think working at a bookstore was actually the best thing for creative, that creative muscle. Like, I really missed it. It was really, really good.

Natasha Rai

Um, and so how... What was the process like of getting an agent?

Jasmin McGaughey

Because of the Ash Body books. So I had been doing some editing for the, um, publisher, and they're like, "Hey, we've got this opportunity. Do you want to, you know, submit a sample?" And so I did, and then as that kind of unraveled I was like, "I want an agent," and because I am too anxious to talk to publishers and do any negotiation or anything like that. Um, and so I reached out to Alex Adsett based on that. Um-

Natasha Rai

Mm-hmm. Okay

Jasmin McGaughey

and, and that's when we went from there. Yeah. Yeah.

Natasha Rai

And so I know you don't at the moment, but at the time you were living in Queensland?

Jasmin McGaughey

I was... I'd just moved to Darwin, actually. So I was living in Queensland- Okay for my study, and then I moved to- Yeah Darwin, um, after graduating.

Natasha Rai

Is that where you grew up?

Jasmin McGaughey

No. My partner's from there. I grew up in Cairns, in Queensland.

Natasha Rai

Ah, okay. Yeah. 'Cause I was wondering about the setting in your novel. Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause it's so... I, uh, there were times where I was like I was getting hot from the humidity- reading about. I was like, "Oh my God- Yeah I'm sweating just reading this book."

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah. 'Cause

Natasha Rai

it's so evocative, like the kind of that- I'm glad

Jasmin McGaughey

to hear

Natasha Rai

that kind of wet heat. Obviously humidity- Yeah is that heat. But yeah. I mean,

Jasmin McGaughey

it is similar in Darwin, but I was in Cairns while I was writing some of it, so that was helpful.

Natasha Rai

Yeah. I really felt that captured the setting. It was just incredible. Um, okay, so when you went out to editors with Alex Adsett, were you looking for someone to give you some advice on how to do something with it?

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah. I just knew that it wasn't ready. Uh, not that it wasn't re- It just, like, that it needed editorial help, and I just wanted to see what... Um, so we went to, I think we went to three publishers, and only in one gave me feedback that I was like, "Yes, that really does align with what I'm thinking." And, um, and they had been, like, on my list because they're one of the few publishers who have been publishing speculative fiction, um, consistently for ages. So yeah. So that, that's kind of-

Natasha Rai

Yeah. And that was still when it was about 40,000 words, or had you written more?

Jasmin McGaughey

No, I had written more. It was 70,000 or- Okay yeah, it was around s- 60 or 70. Um, yeah.

Natasha Rai

Yeah.

Jasmin McGaughey

I had written more.

Natasha Rai

And, and did you do that kind of exercise for the publishers that you did go to, that you were checking out what type of work they were publishing, who they were publishing? A

Jasmin McGaughey

little bit. I think I've been d- I've been doing it for a while before anyway, just 'cause it's motivating and exciting. And does Do, do you feel the same? Were you like that?

Natasha Rai

Well, it's I did and I didn't, because I know that sometimes it can feel a bit scary or daunting- Mm to check publishers out because, especially if you have, like, a dream publisher or you really want to be published- Mm by a certain house, and they don't really ha- publish exactly what you write, which I know you don't have to. You have to- Mm you know? But yeah, I was curious about that, 'cause sometimes when I was looking around And you know, they get, they tell you things like, "You should know your comp titles. You should know who publishes what." Like, it just, sometimes that just felt a bit, um, what's the right word? I don't know, just a bit- scary or just a bit kind of-

Jasmin McGaughey

Overwhelming?

Natasha Rai

Yeah, and a bit, like, tiring. Yeah.

Jasmin McGaughey

Mm. Tiring. And I wonder if it's different in adult space as well, because- Oh,

Natasha Rai

yeah, maybe

Jasmin McGaughey

there's so much more, like, for you to have to think about, whereas, I mean, yeah, um, most publishers do publish YA, but I feel like a lot of them don't all publish speculative fiction, so.

Natasha Rai

That's true. That, that's true.

Jasmin McGaughey

It did, it did feel like it narrowed my choices a little bit.

Natasha Rai

So is that how, how you and Alex went in? Like you were saying, "What do you think of this work? Would you ever publish it?"

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah. I can't remember now. What were we... Um.

Natasha Rai

Or, like, was it more like the kind of traditional submission of, "I'm submitting this for publication"?

Jasmin McGaughey

I think it was like a traditional, like, submission- All right thing, but with the note of, "Jasmine's aware that there's some work that needs to be done, and we'd love to chat. If you're interested, we'd love to chat about how you see things could go." Ah. Um, yeah, I think so.

Natasha Rai

Interesting. I find that really interesting because- Yeah you know, like, there's so much, I'm sure you've heard this from other authors, about how you only get one chance and how you have to make- Yeah the best work it can possibly be.

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah.

Natasha Rai

So it's interesting that you went in with that recognition of it needs work, and

Jasmin McGaughey

what do

Natasha Rai

you think? Yeah.

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah. Yeah, and I And my And Alex said that, too. Um, you know, it needs to be the best, and I was like, "It's the best that I can make it." Like, I know that I'm not gonna be able to do anything else with it, um, until I get actual, like, a, some good Strachan editorial feedback. Mm. And but I lo- I love learning about, like, how people submit their work, too, and that, you know, authors are submitting just, like, v- like, multiple ideas to their publisher and saying, "Okay, I've got all these ideas. Which one do you think works?" And I'll go and write that or I'll, will, I'll write a sample and then get a deal based off that sample, and things like that. And yeah, it's just, it's very interesting.

Natasha Rai

Uh, yeah, I don't know if there are... Well, I don't know enough, obviously I don't know everyone, but I can't imagine any emerging writers doing that, unless they've just got- No so much confidence. They'd have- Yeah

Jasmin McGaughey

yeah, one at least published, I think.

Natasha Rai

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Like, you would have to a relationship where you'd be like, "What do you think?" Yeah. Yeah.

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah.

Natasha Rai

So Allen Unwin came back to you with-

Jasmin McGaughey

Mm-hmm

Natasha Rai

interest. Okay.

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah.

Natasha Rai

And how was it when you looked at their feedback? Do you remember how it felt?

Jasmin McGaughey

Um, I ca- I remember I was sitting... It was on a Zoom, and I was in Cairns at the time, and it was over Christmas. And, um- I remember I spoke to Jodie, who's my publisher there, and she, she kind of mentioned all the points that I was worried about. Yeah. And so I was, "Oh, that's, that'd be good then," to just not have to feel like I'm the one holding the worry for that, you know- Mm plot hole or that, um, issue with the writing or anything. It, it, it feels good that someone else is l- like aware of it and can help.

Natasha Rai

Yeah. And so did she have ideas of how you could kind of write those things- Yeah or fix those issues? Do you remember?

Jasmin McGaughey

No, I can't remember, to be honest. 'Cause I can't even remember after that, 'cause I got a structural report.

Natasha Rai

Mm.

Jasmin McGaughey

Um,

Natasha Rai

but I can't remember- So, so- Yeah so she took it to acquisitions in that form, like she didn't want you to- Mm-mm do any work on it first, and then-

Jasmin McGaughey

No wow. It was finished. It was finished, but it just wasn't like, I wasn't... Like I knew it needed work, it needed to be better. Um-

Natasha Rai

But I, I guess, you know, like that, that, um, again, that difference in standards, right? So you feel like, "This is okay, I know it needs work."

Jasmin McGaughey

Mm.

Natasha Rai

And a publisher's standard, which is, "This is good enough for me to take to acquisitions now."

Jasmin McGaughey

Maybe. Yeah. Yeah

Natasha Rai

Yeah. Which is, is saying a lot about her confidence in, in, in your work, and her confidence in you, and that's amazing.

Jasmin McGaughey

Well, yeah. I mean, uh, uh, 'cause I had the track record of doing the Ash Barty books- Right and a few other shorter pieces, and, um, maybe 'cause I knew, having worked as an editor, freelance, just only freelance, but, like, it, it helped a little bit. But I mean, that was part of my worry, though. I was like- You know, oh, are they just taking it because it's Torres Strait Islander, and is that okay if, if they are, and what does that even mean for the book? And then- Mm-hmm and all of that kind of stuff. Um, and so yeah, it was, it was good, but it was also, like- Mm anxiety provoking.

Natasha Rai

Yeah. And, and I'm... And maybe this is not a valid question or even an interesting question, but if you had had that feeling that it was a tokenistic thing-

Jasmin McGaughey

Mm

Natasha Rai

how would that have sat with you? Would you have done it anyway?

Jasmin McGaughey

I don't know. I think- Mm 'cause back then, like, I feel like now I know more about the process, and I would do some things differently, but I wouldn't... I, I don't know.

Natasha Rai

Mm.

Jasmin McGaughey

As if it was to happen now with the, like, a second book or whatever, I'd be like, "Okay, no." Um, 'cause I feel like I have a little bit more knowledge- Mm and awareness and- Mm confidence or whatever, but back then, I don't know. Yeah. I'd like to think that I would just walk away. Mm. Um, but yeah, I don't know.

Natasha Rai

So when was this? Like, 2024, is that when this was happening, or earlier? I

Jasmin McGaughey

can't remember. 2023? No, it must have been the end of 2023 then.

Natasha Rai

Oh, yeah, okay. Yeah.

Jasmin McGaughey

In December of- Yeah 2023. Yeah.

Natasha Rai

Yeah. That's a really tricky one because, you know, on, in s- on one hand, if it was, if you do come across that again- Mm or not again, you didn't come across it already, but if that was in the mix, in a way it's like, well, you can take advantage of that-

Jasmin McGaughey

Exactly,

Natasha Rai

yeah and get, and get work out there that needs to be out there anyway. But I- Yeah I also get the feeling of, oh, I want the work to be based on its merit and its strength-

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah

Natasha Rai

not just because I, you know, belong to a certain group. Yeah. Yes.

Jasmin McGaughey

But then you start, like, overthinking and the, well, who decides- what is, like- Well,

Natasha Rai

yes

Jasmin McGaughey

good writing or what's, like, worthy of publication. And then it's like this whole loop of, like, am I comparing myself to this, like, Western idea of what a good story is? Oh, true. And, you know, so it's like this whole, I don't know, s- circular kind of loop that keeps- It is.

Natasha Rai

It definitely- Like- is circular, yeah

Jasmin McGaughey

freeze you and stop you and just, okay- Mm it's too hard, I won't do it.

Natasha Rai

True.

Jasmin McGaughey

Mm.

Natasha Rai

So it, it sounds like y- the process or the timing was quite long, like, if you were signing or working on- Moonlight and Dust, like early 2020, uh, late 2023, early 2024, and it didn't come out. Mm. So yeah, 'cause my, my, mine was quite long too. And mine, I signed in 2023- Yeah and it didn't come out till 2025.

Jasmin McGaughey

We came out around the same time, didn't we? Yeah.

Natasha Rai

Yeah, mine was March. When was yours?

Jasmin McGaughey

Oh, yeah, July 1st.

Natasha Rai

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. Mm. Oh, it's been a year for you, yeah. Um- Yeah.

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah

Natasha Rai

and, and so how was that process working on, on the book, getting, you know, your structural report, the next phases of editing? How was all of that for you?

Jasmin McGaughey

Uh, I, I wanna know how it was for you too, because, like, I, I love getting edited, and I love feedback, and- Me too it's like a, maybe it's a self-confidence thing or something, but I also just really like the collaboration aspect of it, I think. Um, and I also really loved being able to send the manuscript off and be like, "Well, this is not my problem anymore." I've got, like, four to six weeks of, like- Yeah not having to think about that. Um, literally nothing I can do about it. Um, so that was really fun. The, the editors were great. They were lovely, and yeah, it, that, that was completely fine. Once it was out, that was a different story. Yeah. But actually working on, um, the manuscript with the editors at ANU was, was lovely. Yeah. Yeah.

Natasha Rai

And, like, what did you notice about your own experience, like, being an editor and then being edited? Mm. 'Cause that, I don't know, that must feel really different.

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah. It was like- I think 'cause I came up as an editor through the Black and Write program, um, which was at the State Library and is not anymore, but... Of Queensland, sorry. And, and it was just a f- like, fantastic experience, and really, really is, um, really built up not just my knowledge, but my confidence and being able to push back- Mm um, being able to h- make sure an author feels they can push back. And so I feel like I was able to take that, not that I had a lot to push back on with the editors, to be honest. Um, but I was able to take that, um, into my mindset at least so that I don't think I felt at all like anything that was in the book or taken out of the book I didn't agree with-

Natasha Rai

Mm

Jasmin McGaughey

or, if you know what I mean. Yeah.

Natasha Rai

Mm.

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah.

Natasha Rai

And what do you remember about the cover design? 'Cause the cover is so striking. Like, it's so beautiful.

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah.

Natasha Rai

Like, w- how was that process?

Jasmin McGaughey

Uh, it's so smooth, and I know it's not the case for everyone, but, like- Mm I, they were lovely. They were like, "Okay, what do you see for the cover?" And I was like, "Well, these are a couple of artists who I love, and these are a couple book covers I love." And the artist is Tori-Jane Morty, who's a To- Torres Strait Islander as well. And, um, they sent back the first draft, and I was like, oh, there's something here. Purple's, like, my favorite color, and I don't know how they got that, but it's my favorite color. And the, the image, like the first rounds, it was like Zilla, 'cause she's the front cover, was looking a little older. Mm-hmm. So we asked to make her b- look a bit younger, and then they got this, like... I don't... Isn't, no, is it m- embossed or, like, there's this, like, UV, spot UV I think they call it, like, um, shine to the magical veins on Zilla's- Yes body.

Natasha Rai

Yes, yes.

Jasmin McGaughey

And I love that. It's so... It was like, it was all cool. Like, I've seen some authors who have such different, um, covers to choose from, like different, um- Yeah, mm versions, but mine was, like, pretty much exactly the same from the start to the end. How was it for you?

Natasha Rai

Oh, for my cover, oh, it was, it was great because I didn't get to see... Like, uh, like you, they showed me a couple of images-

Jasmin McGaughey

Mm

Natasha Rai

and I really trusted Kate. Oh, you know Kate, Kate Coolidge. Yeah. Yeah. So I really trusted her, and so she had two images, and we talked about them, and then I got really emotional 'cause I loved them so much. I remember I was talking to her on the street, and she was like, "Are you crying?" Oh. And I'm like, "A little bit." But, like, in a good way, in a good way. Yeah, she would've

Jasmin McGaughey

loved that. Yeah. She would've just, like, yeah.

Natasha Rai

Yeah, yeah. Um, but, but I just wanted to say about your cover, like, it was really cool because, this is probably just me, but I noticed that I started reading it, and I... You know, every time I picked up the book, I looked at the cover, and I opened it and went back to reading. But it really felt like to me, as I was reading more and I was finding out more about Moondust-

Jasmin McGaughey

Mm

Natasha Rai

the cover seemed to kind of glow in a different way.

Jasmin McGaughey

Oh, oh

Natasha Rai

yeah. Like, I could really notice more the kind of the shimmery thing.

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah,

Natasha Rai

it does do that. That's all I'm gonna say, is that I... Yeah. But I really noticed that a lot more, um, even in the... I feel like there's spark- this is terrible. Yeah. Like, no one can see what I'm even talking about.

Jasmin McGaughey

Sorry, yeah, no, that's like, I've forgotten, so I'm looking at it here. Yeah. There's, like, stars in the background, and

Natasha Rai

then- Yeah, the little sparkly bits I think like, yeah Yes. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Um, and I felt like they really were much more emphasized for me when I was figuring out what was happening with these kids. Mm. So I felt like the cover really spoke on so many levels to me. I was just- Yeah

Jasmin McGaughey

I loved it. I, well, I'm so glad. I think one of the most important things to me was that the main, that the, the cover had showed Zilla, and although it's not, like, a, um, what do you call it? Like, although it's all, like, shaded in purple, so you can't tell her skin color or anything, her hair is, is... She has curly- Oh, yeah hair. So she has the curly, like, Afro-like hair, and I was, 'cause she has that as a character, I definitely wanted that to be showcased on the cover.

Lynsey McDonald

Hi, Book Deal Podcast. This is Lindsay McDonald. My debut novel, Bailey Street, launches on 23rd of July with Hawkeye Publishing. Bailey Street is a dual timeline historical and contemporary love story set between the UK, Ireland, and Western Australia. It follows Rebecca, a workaholic breakfast radio producer, who finds out in the space of a week that she's being made redundant and that her dad isn't really her dad. She travels to WA to meet her biological father and gets caught up in the fight to save his tiny colonial cottage nestled into an industrial port on Bailey Street. With the help of a handsome history professor, Rebecca uncovers the secrets the house has been keeping for 150 years, the love story between her own ancestral grandmother and the famous Irish soldier, convict, and poet, John Boyle O'Reilly. The seed for this story was planted back in 2018 when I read about the Irish Fenian soldiers on board the last convict ship to arrive in WA. I went into the research trenches, and I learned how to write. Then I experienced the joy of writing a story that seemed to have chosen me. Then the humbling and excruciating process of submissions, rejections, rewrites, submissions, until that final yes. Bailey Street is for anyone who wants to be swept away into another time and place, readers who love a story with heart, with pace, with a sense of humor, and a touch of spice.

Natasha Rai

so how, like, when it was finally published and it came out, what was that time like?

Jasmin McGaughey

I did not love it.

Natasha Rai

You didn't?

Jasmin McGaughey

No.

Natasha Rai

Oh, okay.

Jasmin McGaughey

Did you like when your book came out? Like, shit, wait.

Natasha Rai

Uh, I liked it better when I was talking to people one-on-one than doing- Uh-huh events.

Jasmin McGaughey

Uh-huh.

Natasha Rai

Because events, uh, I said this before, I just, I don't know, I always had this weird feeling that people were gonna come heckle me.

Jasmin McGaughey

No,

Natasha Rai

no.

Jasmin McGaughey

And

Natasha Rai

that's, and that... I know, I know. It's so weird, and that I'd have to somehow explain myself or-

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah

Natasha Rai

I don't know, give some kind of justification as to why I was even up there. Yeah.

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah, I get that. Yeah.

Natasha Rai

I don't have that as much now. Mm. Um, but in the early days I did, but I much prefer talking to people just one-on-one- Yeah about it. What, what didn't you like?

Jasmin McGaughey

Um, it was just a lot. It was, I think- 'Cause I, 'cause I was living in Darwin, so I was living about four hours away from where things would happen. Yeah. And I'd gotten a grant to bring me to Sydney to visit- Mm-hmm some bookstores and to also help for a Brisbane book launch, 'cause I didn't know that many people in Darwin. Um, and so I'd come to Katoomba for work, and that's I think where I first met you. Um, and it was a week before my book was coming out, and then I was going down to Sydney to go to all of the, not all of them, but, but a fair few bookstores.

Natasha Rai

Yeah,

Jasmin McGaughey

a

Natasha Rai

few of them. Yeah. I

Jasmin McGaughey

mean, I loved it. I loved meeting booksellers. They were the best. And, um, it was amazing to see my book, like, there with my name on it and that cover, but it was very, very draining. And, and then the book launch, I had family, and it was lovely and it was... Then it ended up in Torch News and, but it was just so draining. And I found talking- Mm about myself and talking about the book- Ah like just beyond- Yeah exhausting to the point of like I just didn't wanna do it anymore. Yeah. And I was like, but I feel like I've always known I would be like this. Like, if I could just make money off being an anonymous writer and not having to have any kind of, like- Yeah, I don't know- Presence feel the obligation to- Yeah, yeah 'cause I don't mind. I love talking about books, and I love festivals and things like that, and, and things like this. I love talking about, um, books with other book nerds. But it's Yeah. 'Cause maybe it was 'cause it was just bang, bang, bang, one after the other. Yeah. It, it was too much for me. Um.

Natasha Rai

How did you look after yourself and get your energy back during that time?

Jasmin McGaughey

I definitely didn't. I als- I was like working while I was, like-

Natasha Rai

Ah

Jasmin McGaughey

in Sydney and Brisbane. Mm. And, um, and, and so I was working, and then I was doing some freelance work, and had a few, like So had the events, had some radio things, and, um, had some articles to write. And while it was great and I'm grateful for it, yeah, I just, I didn't take care of myself. So yeah, it's been a while since-

Natasha Rai

Yeah

Jasmin McGaughey

yeah, since then, but I just didn't enjoy the experience. So I know that Yeah. And it's so different from all the other little, uh, you know, younger reader books that I've gotten to do that, yeah. Mm.

Natasha Rai

But I, I came to your session at the Blue Mountains Writers' Festival with Olivia O'Flynn.

Jasmin McGaughey

Oh, yeah. I, I loved that. The

Natasha Rai

12th. Yeah. And- you looked, you looked like you were having fun, and you looked- really relaxed, and you were so confident- Oh and artic- and articulate. So-

Jasmin McGaughey

Oh

Natasha Rai

I don't know i- if that felt different to you, but in terms of that- It- nervousness or that kind of not liking being to- up there, but you looked great. Yeah.

Jasmin McGaughey

Oh, thank you. It did, 'cause that wasn't around the same time as all the other ones. That was, like- That's true in October. So I'd had a big break, and I love Katoomba and I love the Blue Mountains. So And we were talking about romantasy, so I didn't have to just talk about my book. Like, we talked about Olivia's book. Ah, yes.

Natasha Rai

We talked about- That's true. Mm

Jasmin McGaughey

everything, like, to do with romantasy, which is probably my favorite topic. And yeah, so I was in my happy place.

Natasha Rai

Exactly. Well, speaking of Katoomba and the Blue Mountains, you are now creative producer at Wiluna.

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah. And- Creative

Natasha Rai

producer,

Jasmin McGaughey

First Nations

Natasha Rai

Sorry. First, yes. Yeah. And you are also an editor, and you're also a writer. So you have all these different hats, all these different industry hats. What are you learning, if anything, about craft and all these, through all these different avenues?

Jasmin McGaughey

That's such a good question. I love hearing people talk about craft. And to be honest, after Moonlight and Dust, I haven't done too much writing other than, um, like, my, the commissioned work that I've had and commission books that I've had which are younger readers, and doesn't feel quite the same. And so I feel like, I don't know if... Y- you gotta tell me how you feel about it with your, after writing, after your first book. I feel like I've forgotten everything to do with craft, and I'm like, "Well, how do you write a book?" Like, what, what's even the first step? What is a book? Yeah, what is a book? Like, I've done a lot of reading, I've done editing, and I have done some writing. Um, but I don't know. Like, I'm like, I feel like I need to go sit in a, like, what's writing 101 class again, and just feel, get, like, refreshed and re-energized- Mm and be ready to step into the unknown again, 'cause maybe that's just what I need.

Natasha Rai

I, I, I wonder if it's a thing around flow and, and space, because-

Jasmin McGaughey

Mm-hmm

Natasha Rai

you know, if you're working on shorter pieces or you're doing commissioned work, like, there is a natural deadline I assume attached to those projects. Yes,

Jasmin McGaughey

yes, yes.

Natasha Rai

That's true. Um, in a way that if you're writing something for yourself, you can of, of course impose your own, but it's not the same.

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah, it's not. And I did say that to my, to Alex my agent, and I was like, look, I... Also because, like, I make most, most of my income comes from, like, freelance, from editing and writing, and so I'm gonna say yes to projects based on money, and not have time and space to work on my passion projects, which I, I'm not immediately gonna get paid for, or even may never get paid for. So it's, it's really hard to feel comfortable prioritizing writing, you know, another, a, a fantasy novel, um, that's completely different from Moonlight and Dust when I have all these other tasks that, um, that will help me pay rent and, and be fed. No. D-

Natasha Rai

I mean, does that- Like get to you in any way or irritate you or, yeah

Jasmin McGaughey

1,000%. Yeah. And I mean, I did say at the end of last... It was like a New Year's resolution for me was going to be to stop taking on freelance work and like work on the next novel, and I've done it a little bit, but not as much as I'd like. Um, and yeah. And so it's just, it's kind of sad, but I'm also trying to like look at it as if, okay, m- I just need a bigger break. I just need to not be working on a- another novel at the moment, and maybe it's more of a thinking time and- Mm-hmm doing these other little projects. So yeah.

Natasha Rai

And it- it's, it's such a, it sucks so bad, like when, you know, obviously you have to live and-

Jasmin McGaughey

Yes.

Natasha Rai

pay rent and pay for food.

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah,

Natasha Rai

yeah. And, uh, especially being a creative in Australia, like you just-

Jasmin McGaughey

Mm-hmm

Natasha Rai

maybe it's not just Australia, but we live here, so let's use this as a context. But, you know, you have to just really, if it's, especially if you're earning your living through creative means or pathways- Mm-hmm that constant hustle and the- Mm especially freelancing, like you just feel like you can never say no to anything. Yeah,

Jasmin McGaughey

exactly. You can never say no. And like, I really messed myself up with like the whole tax thing. I have an accountant, but like I got a grant last year to write this novel, write the second novel, and I forgot to like, um, consider tax when I was doing my budget. And so I got the grant and I was like, "Oh, hang on, like over 30% of this needs to be tax, and I can't buy all the, the things and use all of the-" Oh "the money," said I was gonna do because I'm gonna be taxed. Uh, um, and so just like little things like that- I know and I try to get like ahead of the thing by like paying off my HECS, and then my accountant was like, "Oh, that doesn't count. That's just like voluntary payments. You still have to pay like your HECS- I know at the, in the again." So it was just like paying it twice.

Natasha Rai

Exactly. So I'm, I'm not an accountant by any means, but h- speak to your accountant about income averaging. You've heard about that?

Jasmin McGaughey

No. What's that?

Natasha Rai

Oh my God. Okay. Book aside.

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah, yeah.

Natasha Rai

Um, for creatives especially- Yeah like, so as writers, we can, we are, we're a per, people of special, we're special people according to the tax laws- Mm because our income is so, um-

Jasmin McGaughey

Up and down, yeah

Natasha Rai

fluctu- fluctuates so much. So you can ask your accountant to do this thing where it's called income averaging, where they figure out what you might earn over three years or five years. Oh. So if you do get a grant, say one year out of the five, it's spread out over the five so you don't have to pay tax in the way that-

Jasmin McGaughey

Oh, so income averaging.

Natasha Rai

Yep. Speak to your accountant.

Jasmin McGaughey

I will Uh,

Natasha Rai

I'm just gonna plug the book deal again, because we literally just did an episode on this a few weeks ago on our last catch-up ep

Jasmin McGaughey

I was listening to it Well, actually I listened to half

Natasha Rai

of it We talked about tax and money. Yeah.

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah. You did, and I listened to half of it, but then I was like, "I'm too stressed about tax.

Natasha Rai

I can't listen to this." No, no, no, it's fine. It's fine. It's just anyone who's lis- Okay anyone who's listening now, we've covered this. So find it and you'll g- you'll get all our top tips on that.

Jasmin McGaughey

I mean, it's only through talking and listening to other people that you learn about things, like income averaging and things like that. Um- Exactly.

Natasha Rai

Exactly So, I know. I know. Um, 'cause yeah, it, it's, it does suck if you get a grant how you, you know, having to put some of it away for tax when you know that maybe the next year you won't earn as much or whatever.

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah.

Natasha Rai

Yeah.

Jasmin McGaughey

Exactly, yeah.

Natasha Rai

Yeah. So, um, tell me then in terms of, because you do work, and I know you mainly work children's YA books, but given how much I guess you s- you might be seeing of the industry-

Jasmin McGaughey

Mm-hmm

Natasha Rai

are there trends that you're seeing in the YA or young adult, I mean, YA or middle grade children's sector- Mm compared to, say, adult books? Or anything you're hearing?

Jasmin McGaughey

I don't know. Um, I feel like for a while there I was hearing that, and just before and while Moonlit and Dust, that YA was kind of trending down. Might be trending up again. I'm not too sure. Mm. Um, yeah. So I, I can't say that I know of any, um, trends. Um, only that we... I mean, it's nice to see more First Nations fiction- Oh, yeah more diverse fiction coming for younger readers. Um, yeah. I don't know. Have you heard any?

Natasha Rai

Well, I mean, it's usually, it's always the dire thing of no one's reading.

Jasmin McGaughey

No one's reading.

Natasha Rai

AI is gonna ruin everything. Um-

Jasmin McGaughey

Oh, yeah

Natasha Rai

and the latest one that's been floating around, there's a few different versions, that we're publishing too many books in Australia. Oh,

Jasmin McGaughey

yeah, I've seen a few articles, but I haven't read any of them yet about we're publishing too many.

Natasha Rai

Apparently all the publishers are publishing too many books, and it- what it means for authors is that no one really gets much of a chance, um- Yeah.

Jasmin McGaughey

Mm

Natasha Rai

cause their book's barely in the bookshop and they disappear. That's true. Which I get, um- Yeah but at

Jasmin McGaughey

the same time-

Natasha Rai

And,

Jasmin McGaughey

and, yeah, and I know, like, editors and people working in-house are overworked, so underpaid- Yeah, exactly and overworked. Um, but I don't know if we're publishing too many books. Maybe we just don't have enough readers. We need, need more people reading.

Natasha Rai

Well, I mean, I, I think it's also, like, maybe it's we have to have a more community approach to book-

Jasmin McGaughey

Mm

Natasha Rai

publishing and buying and selling, because- Mm you know, like every... I love going into bookshops in different... like, especially when I'm visiting somewhere or I'm not as familiar, and it's just- Mm fascinating to me the books that you see on the shelves. Like, they're so... You... Of course you'll see some of the big names all the time, but then-

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah

Natasha Rai

some of the s- like, au- Aussie authors or authors where you may not have known them as well, but it really comes down to what the bookseller loves.

Jasmin McGaughey

Yes. Yeah.

Natasha Rai

So it's like, well, what if we had a community-led approach of here in this part of, um, Sydney lives a lot of this community. What if we stocked more of that type of book? Not because that's all they can read, but just to really- Yeah showcase or you were like- Yeah "I've noticed lots of young people around, so you could have more YA section," or a... I don't know. I don't- Mm I actually don't know, but- No, I- just an

Jasmin McGaughey

idea.

Natasha Rai

Mm.

Jasmin McGaughey

I totally agree, and I think that, um- It, it's like, I mean, as always with publishing, there's a lot of assumptions that are being made behind closed doors in publishing houses that are not entirely accurate and aren't actually representative of, like, readers and what readers want or what, what readers will consume- Mm if they're properly informed and given the chance. Um, I got to edit an article for Griffith Review by the owners of Amplify Bookstore in Melbourne.

Natasha Rai

Oh, yeah?

Jasmin McGaughey

Um, yeah. And they talk about, like, you know, they're a wonderful bookstore who only stock people of color- That's right. That's right, yeah and they started just online. They had so many people telling them that they wouldn't last, that they needed to stock white authors as well, and now they have a physical store.

Natasha Rai

Yeah.

Jasmin McGaughey

And they talk about, like, how they wish they could There was more of, like, a In the article they talk about more how they could wish they could talk to publishers and it was a bit more, like, community collaboratively focused- Mm because their numbers are not gonna look like the big chains, um, because of what they're stocking, what they're not stocking. But their numbers are still gonna show what people are really interested in-

Natasha Rai

Yeah

Jasmin McGaughey

um, if, if given more

Natasha Rai

shelf space. And, and, and, and obviously even with that remit or that kind of, um- purpose. Mm. They're obviously making enough money- Yeah to be able to do it- To be in business in a physical location. Yeah.

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And-

Natasha Rai

Actually, M- M- Marina was the copy editor for Onslaught, so- Oh,

Jasmin McGaughey

was she?

Natasha Rai

Yeah, yeah.

Jasmin McGaughey

Oh. Oh, she's lovely. Both of them, yeah, they're

Natasha Rai

so lovely. They, they are, yeah. They're very smart, too. But, but even just, just, just on that point about, um, like community-led, like the idea... And so I think that I, the problem with too many books being published is booksellers don't ever get a chance to-

Jasmin McGaughey

Mm

Natasha Rai

engage or really get to know. Mm-hmm. I think if we had that... See, I reckon publish as many books as you want- Mm but then you can just really be very targeted about-

Jasmin McGaughey

Yes

Natasha Rai

you know, here this, this place, this small shop has this- Yeah shop space, so I think they would be really good at selling X, Y, Z. Yes. Maybe we should open a bookshop.

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah, yeah, exact- Like, I w- that's my dream, to open a bookshop. That's my dream, too. Oh, is it? Oh, there you go. Hey. Because it was one of the most enjoyable... I, I used to work at QBD in Darwin, and it was one of the most enjoyable experiences ever, and I learned so much about what was popular and what customers wanted. And customers w- always came in asking for First Nations books, always thinking they only had nonfiction to, like, that was the only thing that they could, um- Choose

Natasha Rai

from?

Jasmin McGaughey

Could choose from. Yeah. And 'cause I was so passionate about it, I was always like, "Oh, I'll help them. I'll help them." And we would have a stack of books for them, and they're like, "My gosh, I didn't know I had so much to choose from." Like, why would you know that? Because we're not, you know, if there is- So clever a First Nations shelf in a bookstore, it's, like, minuscule. It's tiny,

Natasha Rai

yeah. Mm-hmm. And

Jasmin McGaughey

most of the titles are nonfiction or-

Natasha Rai

Yeah

Jasmin McGaughey

you know. So it's, yeah. There's a lot of power in bookselling, but, um, yeah, they definitely need, need the help from publishers.

Natasha Rai

Exactly. They need that support.

Jasmin McGaughey

Mm.

Natasha Rai

So, um, I'm just aware that we are nearly out of time. Um, so your writing routine at the moment is mainly kind of built around projects and work that you have

Jasmin McGaughey

to- Kind of nonexistent

Natasha Rai

deliver.

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah. Like... Yeah, it's, it's task-based, just trying to deliver- Yeah, yeah stuff, and, um- Yeah, and like eventually, like I- we've just moved into this new place. I put all my books up, and I've like been really like trying to be intentional with the space and making it cozy and, um, feel creative. Mm. And so eventually I really would love my writing routine to look like, um, like it's just not h- I mean, being more structured and having maybe admin days, admin mornings, and then- Mm writing, planning, maybe one day of freelance tasks, and then-

Natasha Rai

Mm

Jasmin McGaughey

Toowoomba has beautiful cafes. I want to feel okay enough to go and just write in them for a little bit. Um-

Natasha Rai

Mm

Jasmin McGaughey

and I only work at Baroona two days a week, so I have... I- I'm almost there. I just need to like get over a few more freelance tasks, and then I can do that.

Natasha Rai

Yeah. So, so in, in terms of your routine once you look into setting up something- Mm you work better with like, "Okay, this day is for this, this day is for that." Is that how you like to work?

Jasmin McGaughey

I think so. Or I, I work better with like- without knowing, because I work better with deadlines, if I have deadlines for other things, I just feel like I really can't get into that creative flow. Um, although I was, for Sydney Writers Festival, I got to do, um, an event with, um, Tigger Scoma who wrote, um, Eternal... What's her fourth book? Mortal Duck and Eternal Room, which is a black vampire series, which is awesome. And she was doing these, like, sprints, and so we did some in the green room together of she did, was it 20 minutes on or 30? 20 minutes on, five minutes off, like Pomodoro, but a little bit longer, and just put her headphones in and we were in the busy, like, green room doing that, and I was like, "Oh, maybe it's this simple. Maybe I don't need to be, like, setting up this whole everything has to be perfect before I write. Maybe it's just stealing 20 minutes a day or 20..." You know? So yeah, maybe I'll do that.

Natasha Rai

Is that what you- Interesting.

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah.

Natasha Rai

Well, I mean, at, at, at the moment, like you, because I have a lot of other work things- Mm to get through, I've been noticing that I'm not writing as much as I'd like. Mm. And like you, I'm like, "Oh, I need a full hour." Then I'm like- Yeah "But do I, though? Do I?" Yeah. Yeah. Because I find even if it's 20 minutes or quick in and out-

Jasmin McGaughey

Mm

Natasha Rai

if, if, if there's consistency for me, like or if I try and at least hit every day or every second day, I don't have to spend as much time remembering what was the last thing I did and where I'm up to. Yeah. Exactly. 'Cause that's, that's what takes so long- Yeah 'cause you're like, "What did I... What?" Yeah.

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah. Definitely. And to get back into, like, the-

Natasha Rai

That. So-

Jasmin McGaughey

The, yeah Yeah excitement, the flow.

Natasha Rai

Exactly.

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah.

Natasha Rai

Um, so, so what, what do you like to read? 'Cause it sounds like you read a lot.

Jasmin McGaughey

Um, I love, yeah, lots of different... I love First Nations fiction, non-fiction, poetry, but my favorite is probably fantasy romance, romantic fantasy, romantasy, whatever you wanna call it. Mm-hmm. Um, definitely developed from my YA love of things like Twilight and, um, all of those kind of, um, millennial, um- Yeah romance fantasy books that were popular.

Natasha Rai

So do you read adult and YA fantasy and

Jasmin McGaughey

romantasy for example? Yes. Although more adult recently. I think with b- BookTok and everything, I'm just getting so many more recommendations. I never used to know where to look, um, as I was, like, leaving teenage years- Mm. Mm into adulthood. I just was like, "I just know YA. I'll just read there because I know the authors and I know what covers I love. I, I know-

Natasha Rai

Mm

Jasmin McGaughey

I know what to grab." Um, but now with BookTok and, you know, all these kinds of things, I feel like I've been introduced to so many, so, so much more, like, adult, um, works in that kind of same genre.

Natasha Rai

Amazing. Yeah. That sounds good. So final question.

Jasmin McGaughey

Yeah.

Natasha Rai

What is or are your... Yeah, what is your top tip for emerging writers?

Jasmin McGaughey

Um, okay. No, no. My top tip is to, mm, uh, write what you love. Um, I've done a few, like, um, sessions with young people this year, um, and I've found that a lot of them are really, really worried about copying someone else's work, about being cliche, about their work not being unique enough, and, um, I just really tried to tell them that don't worry about that. Like, it's not all on you. Just write what you love. Um, obviously don't, don't do plagiarism, that's not cool, but, like, it's okay if you're writing about vampires 'cause y- the way you're gonna write about vampires is completely different to the way someone else is gonna do it, and just really lean on what you love. Um, because if you love it, then there are gonna be readers who love it as well, I think.

Natasha Rai

No, that's, that's excellent advice. Um, I really like that tip because it's true. Because y- even if, even if you copy, even if you copy- Yeah someone's structure or someone's kind of outline, it's still gonna be your own take on it, your own way- Yeah of expressing it.

Jasmin McGaughey

Exact- And, like, I mean, if we look at fan fiction, like, there's a reason that the fan fiction community is so big, is because we people build on story and on- Yeah creativity, and it doesn't all have to be completely unique. I don't, don't know if it can be, anyway.

Natasha Rai

Exactly. But, um, Jasmine McGaughey, thank you so much for joining me, and I It was such, it was such a pleasure to talk to you.

Jasmin McGaughey

Oh, so lovely to talk to you, too. And thanks for having me.

Natasha Rai

You're welcome.

Tina Strachan

Thank you for listening to another episode of The Book Deal Podcast. If you are enjoying the pod, we'd really appreciate you following or sharing the show in your podcast directory, checking us out on Instagram and Facebook, or supporting us through our Patreon community at patreon.com/thebookdealpodcast