Cats dying from Avian Bird Flu??...and my chat with David Cooper

After updating the world (you guys, my loyal listeners, are my world) about Avian Influenza killing cats in the US, I chat with my good friend Mr. David Cooper about when old friends cross the line and ask their vet buddies for free advice.
Be sure to check out David's podcast at https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/the-last-show-with-david-cooper/id1168275879

Be sure to follow me on Instagram @drcliffworldwidevet.com
Listener questions, episode suggestions, or if you have a good idea for a guest, email me at dr.redford@vet905.com
Additional information can be found at drcliff.ca

Transcript

Dr. Cliff Redford (00:08)

Ooh, baby, I do love that theme song. Everyone, welcome to Bet Life with Dr. Cliff. I was going to talk about some other stuff today, but I've got coming up in the interview with my friend, David Cooper, from his podcast, or you can enjoy his podcast. I think it's called The Last Show. I should probably know these things. Check it out. It's going to be a great chit chat. We're going to be talking about crossing that line.

Sort of when, as a friend of a veterinarian, when you reach out to your vet friend who you haven't talked to in a decade to ask for free advice. this was an idea that David came up with because it's something he sort of did though. We were actually friends for only a brief period. And then I was coming to New York. I was going to New York. He lives in New York. He was coming to see my film at the New York TV film festival, which is where we won best.

TV pilot, I believe. Yeah. Best TV pilot docu-series. and at the same time he said, Hey, come, come, come check out my, uh, come to my apartment and check out my pussy cat tomato. Um, she had a bum issue. Uh, anyways, it's a great topic, but what I want to talk about right now is something that David also brought to my attention and is now all over the news. Um, this, this story about a bird flu.

The avian influenza H5N1 and it infecting and killing a cat. And now the stories are out about it killing a whole bunch of cats in the U S it's not just an American problem. Obviously it's going to be a problem here in Canada as well. About a year ago in Poland and in South Korea, a handful of cats, house cats died from avian influenza.

This H5N1 virus and this story that comes out of, it's a food, the cat owner out of the U S was feeding. So this cat owner is from Oregon. Checking out a CNN article right now. This cat, this cat was living in Oregon, indoor cat only. And it was eating a raw turkey based cat food slash.

protein boost topper for dogs. Right there that gives me a little bit of a pain in my brain thinking about feeding food that is both for dogs and cats, not even species specific. But this was a raw diet for cats. It says on their complete and balanced diet hogwash, no pork in this, but still hogwash. 98 % turkey organs and bone raw frozen, never cooked.

grain and gluten free. ended up doing a recall on this food because this cat died of avian influenza, severe pneumonia and the neurological signs. The studies or the reports out on social media about a hundred percent mortality is grossly over-exaggerated, but it is still very, very serious in cats and dogs and other animals, but very serious, much more serious in cats than a lot of other pets.

and creatures, obviously, other than birds. And they know that this cat got it from this food because they did studies, they pulled the virus out of the cat and did a genome sequencing identification and basically the genetics of the H5N1 virus that was in this cat and killed this cat was the exact same genome sequencing.

of the H5N1 in this Northwest Naturals Turkey recipe. On top of that, in Washington state, there's a cat rescue that lost about half of their big cats. It's a cat sanctuary. And they've lost a handful of cougars, bobcats, and a couple of African servals.

which they obviously, or I'm going to assume rescued from people that had them sort of as pets or had them in their homes that they're not allowed to have. And unfortunately, you know, they did everything they could to try and protect these cats. And some of them did survive, but not all of them did. They lost 20 of them. Again, pneumonia and neurological symptoms. And then a bigger sort of dive, sort of

We found out that there was a, an issue with a zoo as well in the U S that has lost a handful, think three big cats and two birds. So, you know, this is a serious problem and, and it is really only a problem when your cat comes in contact with raw or undercooked meat specifically, or primarily poultry. though it can sort of cross contaminate. or if they are.

catching or handling, infected and or dead birds. So the bird can be alive and infected or the bird could have died from avian influenza. And then, like my little savage of a puppy, Lana Poppy, about six months ago, when she was six months old was tearing around the backyard, chewing on a raven or crow's wing. I went and grabbed it, threw it out. Said bad puppy. She ran.

down to the other side of the backyard and started chewing on something else. I finally chased her down and it was the beak and part of the head. she clearly did not kill this bird. She was just enjoying the leftover, leftover awful, awful. FFAL. I think that's how you spell it is basically the carcass, but it is also pretty awful. so, this is a, this is a serious threat. and look,

This is where I'm going to get on my soapbox as a veterinarian. and we're going to touch on this topic another time, but, any good veterinarian out there has been, encouraging and educating their pet owning clients about the dangers of feeding raw meat. Yes. I'm to go there guys. know some of you might be rolling your eyes. if you want to come into my clinic and you feed your pet raw meat, I love you. I'm still going to support you. I'm going to educate you and then let you make your own decision.

But the science is there. You must trust the science. I hate to quote Fauci. We just are happening to be saying the same things. I am not quoting that man. There's no such thing as the science, but let's say the scientific studies are clear. There are no scientifically proven or even theoretically conceived.

advantages to feeding your dog or cat raw food, what is called bones and raw food, or what I think is the, the appropriate acronym of barf. you should not be feeding them this. there's another one, there's another acronym that I can't think of. there are no, there are no benefits whatsoever. Don't talk to me about, their natural state and how they used to be wild cats or they used to be wolves or whatever.

They aren't. the reality is wildcats, wildcats can live a long time. Um, but wolves do not live long. Something like half of all puppies born die within the first couple of months. Um, another 25 % die before they're a year. So if a, if a mama wolf has four pups, two are dead, uh, very quickly, one doesn't make it to its one year birthday and then only one survives. Um, and

Could it be that the mom is eating raw meat and there are issues with bacteria and parasites and poor absorption and poor nutrition? Yeah, of course. That's, know, that's a pretty fair thing to say. Yes, there's cold. Yes, there's predators. Yes, there's other diseases, but if your immune systems shite and if your energy level is crap and if you don't have a good coat and if you're dealing with parasites and you're sharing your nutrients or your nutrients are being stolen.

by whip worms and hook worms and round worms and tape worms and coccidia and giardia. And now with this poor cat, may he rest in peace, he or she, H5N1, there's a lot of issues. So there are no advantages whatsoever, but there are so many scientifically proven and also theoretically conceptualized, that's not the right word.

but just common sense knowledge that there's some danger. They will pick up bacteria. They will pick up viruses. They will pick up parasites. We do not chop raw chicken and then go and chop on the same cutting board salad. Why don't we do that? Because it's gross, because there's germs. Now, it's true. 99.9%, I just made that number up, but a high percentage, almost all dogs and cats themselves are not

affected by the bacteria. The parasites are a different thing, like the worms and the, and the isospera and the giardia. That's a different story. But the bacteria generally does not hurt these dogs and cats, but you know who it does hurt? The people that pet those animals. The studies have been shown. There's one done at my alma mater, Ontario veterinary college back in the two thousands in the two odds, 2000 odds, something like that.

And basically all of, had three, they had three groups. had a group of dogs being fed raw food. Another group of dog being fed the same food, but it was cooked. And then a group of dogs being fed kibble. So ABC and the B's and the C's were fine, but all of the dogs in the A group being fed the raw meat had on their coat, clinically pathogenic bacteria, salmonella, clebsiella, E. coli.

Um, there's a couple of them for getting Campylobacter, Campylobacter is a nasty one. And so it's basically they shed it in their saliva. They, gets on their coat. So it gets on your couch. It's on your floor. You're going to have to wash the bowls like crazy because it's going to be in the bowls and it's in their stool, yeah, stool is gross, but the reality is this normal stool, air quotes, healthy stool.

out in your backyard, I don't clean my backyard anywhere near enough as I should, which is pretty much never. I just let it kind of dissolve into the, into the grass. but that, that it's not going to contain those bacteria. So if you have a pet in your house and you're feeding them these raw based diets, know that when you pet them, when you handle their toys that they've been chewing on, when you handle their dishes.

All those things are going to spread potentially bacteria onto your hands. Now, again, 99.9 % of the people are fine. If you are very young, so maybe under the age of five, if you are the elderly or have someone in your house that is elderly, so over the age of 65, or anyone who is immunocompromised, maybe they're HIV positive, maybe they're on chemotherapy, maybe they're on immunosuppressive drugs due to autoimmune disorders. Who knows if they are immunocompromised.

they are at risk for getting sick or you are at risk for getting sick from these bacteria. So it's a big, big issue. What can you do to stop it other than feeding, say the raw food, which would be the best thing. If you're cooking the food yourself or if they're kind of like chunks of meat where the inside has not been handled, this is why you can eat a sort of medium rare steak.

because there's no bacteria inside the muscle. It's only on the outskirts. So if you just quickly sear the, the, the steak, won't be dangerous for you. Parasites are whole different story, but that's not what we're talking about right now. But if possible, you could quickly cook that raw food. and it'll at least deal with the bacteria. It's not going to help with the nutritional imbalances, which we can talk about it another time. you gotta wash your hands when you deal with the, the, the food dishes.

And you got to wash your hands when you deal with the bowls. And, and I already said that when you deal with say the toys that they're chewing on all those things. but really the best thing is don't feed raw food. find a, speak to your veterinarian, find a food that you agree with that, that gives your dog a good coat or your cat a good coat and good stool. Cause those are the things that people seem to talk about with raw foods that they like. but know that you're taking a risk.

And again, most animals are safe and are fine, though I have treated some myself in my clinic that had immunocompromised situations themselves. Their immune systems were not very good and they were developing chronic bladder infections and chronic skin infections and eye infections. And a large reason of it was they were being fed raw food. So, rest in peace this poor little cat out of Oregon.

and, you know, recognize that this H5N1 is a real deal. So stay away, definitely stay away from feeding raw poultry to your cats, your dogs, and of course yourself. And, enjoy this, upcoming interview with my buddy, David Cooper. Cheers.

David Cooper (14:14)

I did. Let me turn you up. Checkity check one two. Are we rolling? my God.

Dr. Cliff Redford (14:12)

You made it.

We're rolling, man. Go right

to this. just jump in as premature as possible.

David Cooper (14:25)

I love it, I need to,

I just got rid of my nicotine gum.

Dr. Cliff Redford (14:29)

What does that say under your name? I do it or is it a I do it. That's okay. That's that's what I was looking at. I do it.

David Cooper (14:32)

yeah, I do it. It's like idiot misspelled to really underscore. Yeah. I once picked

up my brother at the airport when I was living in San Francisco and I had a big sign made. Well, by made, I mean, I use Sharpie on a piece of cardboard, but it said, I do it. And everyone at the airport is like, you spelled it wrong. You know, it's funny to me. You know, when like you try, you play the fool and then it's funny to me that people take you at face value. That's what it is.

Dr. Cliff Redford (15:02)

No one has ever mistaken me for a I do it. Not to my face, Mr. Cooper. Come on.

David Cooper (15:08)

Well, you know,

that's the difference between you and me, I guess. I'm an idiot and I know it. You're an idiot and you deny it.

Dr. Cliff Redford (15:19)

Dammit, you got me again. Well, welcome to VetLife, Mr. Cooper. This is great.

David Cooper (15:24)

I love being on VetLife. You know I once got

invited on a friend's show and then he stopped being my friend because he's like, took over my show and you were so rude. So I'm not gonna do that today.

Dr. Cliff Redford (15:34)

you can take over the show. fact, as I don't listen to my shows very often, but at the beginning, at the beginning, well, yeah, but at the beginning, I mean, I would listen to it a lot because I'm editing it, right? But like to actually sit down and listen to it in my car or whatever. at the beginning I did.

David Cooper (15:41)

It's the surefire way not to improve.

Yeah, you don't want

to recreate what the listener's going to hear to see if you're putting out a good product. You wouldn't want to risk improving by listening to your own work.

Dr. Cliff Redford (15:58)

Come on.

I'm starting to understand your friend's

opinion. But come on.

David Cooper (16:05)

No, I don't listen to everything I

do, but I do listen to at least one show a week just to do a, you know, a sanity check.

Dr. Cliff Redford (16:11)

well, I only do one show a week. So, there you go. But listen, what I did notice is I talked too much and I, and I don't, I don't let the guest talk, you know, I keep turning in all these, stories and whatnot. So.

David Cooper (16:19)

Mm. Well...

What's your show? People

are here for you. They don't give a shit about the guest. Can I swear? Okay, people don't give a shit about a guest. mean, they're here for Dr. Cliff Redford.

Dr. Cliff Redford (16:31)

You can swear

Not,

well, I appreciate that, but I think they can hear me, know, 51 % of the time on the podcast. So, whereas David Cooper, this may be the only time you're on it, on how it goes. All right, let's get into this. So you had a great idea, and I'm gonna give you props. It was your idea. You wanted to talk about,

David Cooper (16:54)

I'm already not invited back. We're a minute in. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (17:06)

I guess friends of vets overstepping the line and asking for free advice. Now, why would that be on your mind, Mr. Cooper?

David Cooper (17:13)

It's a broader

conversation. think it's any specialist, could be a vet, could be a carpenter, could be anything where you have this expertise and it's your day job. You get paid for it and then your friends feel entitled and maybe friends of friends, brother-in-law's, sister's, ex-wife's, cousin, they feel entitled to get your services for free. I mean, and I was thinking about this because I'm a former software engineer. That's what I studied in university and that's what I used to do before I decided that as my mother puts it,

I hate money and decided to do a career in media. And so I get invariably like three times a year someone calls me for unsolicited engineering advice. A, I'm not in that industry anymore. And B, don't you pay someone for that? Like, isn't that, you know? So.

Dr. Cliff Redford (18:00)

Yeah. Yeah.

So, so that's a good point. Like I actually posted this on a Facebook page, this Facebook group. It's called 49th parallel or something like that, but it's basically Canadian veterinarians and holy geez. In a couple of days, I got like 60 comments and all from veterinarians talking about it. And one of them, one, one of them said, we're not the only industry that has to deal with this. Stop being so.

David Cooper (18:19)

Wow.

Yes, however,

I do think your industry may uniquely have it bad. You know, a lawyer is not going to get it as bad as a vet because people love their animals.

Dr. Cliff Redford (18:39)

Yeah, yeah. And so that was, that was some of the comments to that comment is, know, the guy talked about a mechanic or, you know, he listed various trades, electrician, that sort of thing. Maybe an IT guy, maybe a lawyer. You're right. But I mean, a mechanic is basically going to say, yeah, that rattling sounds, you know, the description that you're giving sounds pretty bad. I need to take a look at it. et cetera, et cetera. Whereas with veterinarians, it's very easy for people to say,

You know, my dog is sneezing like this. do you think it is? You know, that sort of thing. So it happens.

David Cooper (19:15)

Also, I've done this to you.

That's probably why I was thinking about it as well. But what I wanted was, is this an emergency as I describe it? Do I need to take him to a hospital right now? Or can it wait until the vet visit on Monday? And when you said it can wait, or you don't need to worry too much, then I dropped it. I wasn't like fly to New York and take a look at my cat for free. But I still did it and I felt bad.

Dr. Cliff Redford (19:19)

Yes, yes.

But I,

but I did come to New York and take a look at your cat. I happened to be there. Yes. And, the difference with your story was, and so this is another point is, if you're going to reach out to a veterinarian and, and, know, anything I say regarding vets is also going to be other tradespeople or other, other professions be prepared to, reciprocate and

David Cooper (19:43)

Well, you happen to be here and...

Dr. Cliff Redford (20:06)

You and I had a relationship that was current. So that's another thing. If I haven't heard from you for 10 years and you reach out to me, there's manners that you need to follow when you reach out to me. I had reached out to you about being on your podcast.

David Cooper (20:23)

Yeah, and

back when I had the show with Belle, you know, media appearances, I imagine with what you try to do, you'd like to get those numbers up and I love working with you. And so it's kind of, it's a professional, but it's sort of like a hustling professional based relationship. So I didn't feel too, too bad.

Dr. Cliff Redford (20:32)

Yeah.

Yeah, and you shouldn't

have because again, you had you had opened your podcast doors to me. We had talked about my film screening in New York at a film festival.

David Cooper (20:52)

Please don't disclose anything

about any deals I might be working on with my show right now. Okay. Yep, I know I got it. just, know, you know it is.

Dr. Cliff Redford (20:56)

No, no, this is about me, David Cooper. Come on.

and, you know, so it gave me, you, you gave me a chance to spread the word on your podcast and therefore, and then you're like, Hey, you're coming to New York anyways. do you mind coming in and taking a look at my cat? And then I got to see your fancy apartment and meet my fancy New York special friend and whatnot. So, so it worked out. right.

David Cooper (21:15)

Mm.

All 800

square feet of palace that I live in. I mean, it is a New York mansion, 800 square feet. Anyway, what was the question?

Dr. Cliff Redford (21:26)

Yeah, there you go. So how do you...

It was,

it was nice. It was big. It was nice. Yeah. It was beautiful.

David Cooper (21:33)

Yeah, it's got two tiny

bedrooms where the bed doesn't have space to really fit. So Miranda, my girlfriend, has to crawl over me to go to bed, but it does have a big living kitchen room, which we really like. What was the question?

Dr. Cliff Redford (21:46)

Why don't you just sleep on the other side of the bed and then she doesn't have to crawl over you?

David Cooper (21:51)

then I'll have to crawl over her.

Dr. Cliff Redford (21:53)

Well, I mean, I would say the first person who goes to bed has to pick the far side. You kind of get these sides. Yeah, yeah, you get these sides. I get it. I get it. So how do you handle it when someone reaches out to you asking for, what is it, IT advice? Is that what they're asking you?

David Cooper (21:59)

Well, she's got her products on her side and okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I'll typically say if the relationship's current and there's been an open exchange of favors, services, you know, it's not someone who's hit me up from high school, who I'm not friends with, I don't have a professional relationship with, my friendship is not current, if it's all those things, I'll be like, I don't do that anymore. And back when I did it even, I would say I'm too busy with my day job. I would just say no. If it was someone who the relationship was

like you describe hours, I'll say, I'm not available to do the work, but I'm happy to meet with you for an hour to hear you describe your problem, and I'll try to explain to you as I understand it what I think you need, which is in a sense what you've done for me. Like you come over, look at the cat, you're not prepared to operate on my cat, you'll tell me if he needs to go into surgery or whatever, or I can pay you for it, because at your practice. So it's like, I'll consult on it.

Dr. Cliff Redford (23:02)

Hmm.

David Cooper (23:07)

I'll, you as someone who's not technical, for the example of a, soliciting a vet, it's someone who has no animal, you know, medical animal experience. For me, the example is someone with no IT experience. These people don't really know what they need, you know? Like, so I'll consult with you, listen to your problem, maybe help you understand your problem a little bit better from the perspective of someone who's been in that industry, and then tell you what I think you need, and if I have any friends who might be willing to do it for money.

Dr. Cliff Redford (23:16)

Mm-hmm.

David Cooper (23:37)

that I could refer or professional contacts. That's the most I'll do.

Dr. Cliff Redford (23:41)

Yeah. And I think, in your profession, people would appreciate sometimes, look, sometimes they want to freebie and that's just not possible, but they would be appreciative of just being directed towards someone that you would, give the gold stamp to, you know what I mean? You can trust Joe. He's not gonna, he's not gonna, you know, rake you over the coals. If all you gotta do is turn your computer on and off three times, he's going to tell you that and not charge you an arm and a leg. So.

Sometimes that's all people might be wanting, right?

David Cooper (24:12)

Okay, so

that's the like how we handle it. But for me, the fun side of this is what did those vets say? Were there any incendiary comments? And then also, what are some egregious times this has happened to you? Because as much as this was supposed to be about me, I feel like in your profession, the time, okay, in my profession, the times that people have reached out, my former profession, IT, the times that people have reached out and I've brushed them off, it's not really interesting stories. It's just like this person has bad boundaries and they're cheap.

Dr. Cliff Redford (24:18)

Yes, yes.

David Cooper (24:40)

End of story. With you, I feel like the stories are good.

Dr. Cliff Redford (24:44)

and you can brush them off and not feel bad that the computer is in pain. You know what mean?

David Cooper (24:49)

Like, people, don't get

a pet if you can't afford to go to the vet. I hate to say that. And I know that's so, like, wrong.

Dr. Cliff Redford (24:55)

That that's not

the that's not the issue. I had a buddy of mine who is a emergency doctor. And, you know, we had only we only talked maybe once every five years, but that was that was enough. Like we were very, good friends in university. And and and then we would just occasionally, hey, man, how's it going? And so he occasionally would reach out to me for no like just to see how I'm doing.

which is one of the cardinal rules if you're gonna do this, right? If you reach out to me and I haven't heard from you in 20 years and there's no foreplay, you know, there's no, hey, how's it going? And I see you on Instagram and you're doing some really cool things and you're an inspirate, like stroke my ego a little bit before you ask the question, right? But he had a question regarding his dog's eyes.

basically eye infections and he was convinced it was a food allergy, which first of all, it was one eye. And I was trying to explain to him, that doesn't make sense. If, if you switched the food and the dog developed one eye got pink eye, like how, know, as a medical practitioner explained to me how you think that can be the case. And he kept arguing with me, kept arguing with me. He clearly him and his wife are very high level successful.

physicians, he clearly can afford to go to the veterinarian. He just chose not to. So it was actually almost out of laziness. And when I finally saw it, I was talking them through it, talking them through it. You know, you could try this and he sent me a photo and okay, this isn't this isn't life threatening. So you could try something over the counter or or a mild prescription. I drops and he could just get it himself, right? He could just write a prescription. So that's what he did.

But when it didn't get better, he's like, I really think it's the food. I'm going to go back to the original food. And I basically said to him, dude, go to the vet. What is your problem? And, and then he ghosted me. Like he just, he just said fine. And just, I haven't heard from him since. yeah, yeah. Yeah. It was, it was pretty, it was pretty weird. So some of the comments, let's see what some of the vets, said the, the first one's funny.

David Cooper (27:08)

What a piece of you know what? I mean, this guy's very transactional. Don't like it.

Dr. Cliff Redford (27:20)

Dr. Emily, she says, as a pathologist, I'm barely useful for any vet advice. I tell people to let me know when it dies and I'll help them out. And if they want to postmortem, they have to offer up their bathtub. So because she only deals with biopsies, right? So only deals with like biopsies and postmortem samples and, and whatnot. So there you go.

David Cooper (27:36)

Creepy.

Yeah, cut off your dog's

leg, bring it on over and I'll tell you if its leg was broken. It's fine. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (27:47)

That's what it sounds like she says.

Of course, that got a lot of humorous comments from it. This was a really nice one, Dr. Carmen. This is not a horror story or anything, but it kind of puts things into perspective. She said, she's been doing this 32 years. She's come to peace with this. Remember, first and foremost, we must always put the wellbeing of our patient first.

David Cooper (27:53)

traction.

Dr. Cliff Redford (28:15)

Strangely, I've found that when I give of myself, even when I feel like I have nothing left to give, I feel stronger and I feel better about myself. People view veterinarians as people who love animals and are dedicated to their care. So they will often not understand when we sometimes emotionally or physically are not capable. So she's obviously battling with some burnout issue, but that's the way I look at it. Like I will never...

say no to offering advice. I like telling my opinion. Anyone who knows me knows that. And that's the short, there you go. So I enjoy helping people and it's crazy to think this, but I actually like animals and I want them to do better in life. So I have considered it. You know, I want to be a real doctor. So I'm thinking of

David Cooper (28:50)

And that's the short version of how we ended up here today.

have you considered being a veterinarian?

Dr. Cliff Redford (29:10)

I'm thinking of, or you know what, I want to make a lot of money and get into media. That's, that's my goal. and then this other guy talked about different careers, how it happens all the time. So we'll skip that one. this was a brilliant one. Dr. Amanda, I had never really thought about this. I wait two weeks before accepting friend requests on Facebook because I'm expecting that they added me to ask a question. And by two weeks later, the issue is resolved. That's a, that's very smart.

David Cooper (29:20)

Sure.

smart. That's like you set

the boundaries and then if you know if they still need you, you're there.

Dr. Cliff Redford (29:42)

Because the reality, like I've been a vet for almost 27 years and I get Facebook friend requests all the time or Instagram, friend requests all the time or messages. it took me a while to realize, they're about to ask me a question. Now I'm not gonna wait, because again, I like helping them out, but that's the situation.

David Cooper (29:50)

Mm.

Sure.

It's just like pushy

people who don't know you that well. It must get annoying. mean, even if you agree to do it because you care about animals and you'll help where you can and it's just five minutes of your day, it still must be annoying.

Dr. Cliff Redford (30:10)

Yeah.

It can be. mean, people, people ask me at parties. That's the probably the most common thing face to face. You know, you're, you're at a party, you're meeting a spouse's friend's spouse, or, know, you're just small talk with somebody that you don't know. And so you start talking about careers and, you're a veterinarian. I have a question for you. Now, sometimes they'll say, you must hate, you must hate. Do you hate it when people do this? And I, and I'm honest with them. And I say, no, I like my job. I like talking about it. And then I'll usually.

you know, make some snarky comment about this conversation was boring me anyway, so we might as well talk about animals. And then everyone laughs. Sometimes they're a little bit uncomfortable when they laugh, because they're not sure if I was being serious or not. But it does happen a lot. And I do help people often. If I go to a house party, sometimes they'll bring out their pet and say, Hey, what is this lump? And the worst is, which again, I don't mind. But the worst is, is when you find out you look at it, you go,

God, this is cancer. And sometimes, you like you go, you really need to, yeah, this is, you know, you should always check it out every lump. I would, I would definitely give your vet a call on Monday and, and, you know, have them take a look at it. well, did you think it's serious? Well, you know, it could like you try and you don't want to do, yeah, yeah, your dog's got mast cell cancer and, you know,

David Cooper (31:40)

Because then you're in like

this professional medical pet relationship. You're thrust into when you lay something serious on someone, it's like, God, you're in a transaction with them whether you like it or not.

Dr. Cliff Redford (31:51)

Well, and you're also at a fun party and you may have to stay there. That's the problem. I don't mind. I don't want to say I don't mind giving bad news. I don't mind helping. And if the bad news is there, the bad news is there. You got to help them out. Right. But it's just, you know, it, it sucks when, you know, the animal walks in through the door, you know, into the living room at this party and you just go, my God, like this is, it happens, you know, every couple of years.

David Cooper (32:15)

Is that something that's happened often?

Wow.

Dr. Cliff Redford (32:20)

where,

you know, or you'll just see the animal and, and you just think this thing is not being taken care of. Well, like it is skin and bones and it is, you know, it's got mats and whatnot. So it's a, it is a tricky situation because yes, we love animals and yes, I'm willing to answer your questions and help you out. But I'm also going to tell you if I think your care for, for little fluffy is, is lacking in some common sense.

and again, I'm opinionated and I'm, I'm open with my opinion. So sometimes, it makes those boring parties a lot more interesting, but.

David Cooper (32:58)

Do you

lecture the owners when they appear to be bad owners? I'll tell a little story. I go to Burning Man. It's an arts festival in the desert every year. There's a lot of music, a lot of drugs. And when I was younger, I had spent 48 hours partying, maybe 36, but I was up a long time, spent the whole night, sunrise, all of a sudden it's high noon. I don't know why people say high noon. It's noon in the desert. It's like 100 degrees Fahrenheit. It's, I don't know, 40 something Celsius.

Dr. Cliff Redford (33:08)

Mm-hmm.

David Cooper (33:25)

sun beating down on me, zero percent humidity, and I get like a two liter jug of water and I go on a walk with a friend. No, just water. And I'm drinking it thinking I'm fine, and then I start getting woozy because I need salt and electrolytes and all this, and I kind of half faint. And my friend kind of hovels me over to the medical tent where they give me a liter of Gatorade, and I've never gone from feeling like death to feeling like a million bucks.

It was like, I don't know, it was the funniest thing to me, because I was like, I need to be medical lifted out of this event in a helicopter to the nearest hospital. I'm done. I got heat stroke. I'm fucked. And I get some Gatorade in me and five, six, seven minutes later, I felt like a million bucks. But the nurse or doctor, whoever took care of me in that medical tent, sat me down and lectured me and was like,

don't want to see you in this tent again. You take your Gatorade, you sleep, you stop partying, stay away from drugs. Like it was so funny to me because like it felt like it was part of their job. Like they needed, they get a lot of these, you know, drugged out festival attendees who don't take care of their bodies in the desert. And so part of their job is to make sure they don't end up in the medical tent again if they're there by, because they're idiots, which I was at the time. Side note, I'm five years sober, not important. It's a really long.

Winded stream of consciousness journey, but the short of it is I needed a lecture from a doctor at that time Do you lecture people who come up to you at parties being like you need to take your animal to the vet more you need to take better care of your animal when they just want a little quick opinion

Dr. Cliff Redford (34:49)

Mm-hmm.

I won't lecture them in the beginning. will, I will educate them and I'll educate them politely and I'll talk about, you know, the concerns that I have for fluffy. The issue is, is if they argue with me and especially if they argue with me in front of other people. And unfortunately what ends up happening is when people argue and they don't know what the hell they're talking about, they, they get petty.

David Cooper (35:13)

Mm.

Dr. Cliff Redford (35:30)

You know, so they'll say things to me that, you know, they, they, they won't say, well, you know, his coat is like this, or, you know, we've been trying to feed him and he's not eating and we're concerned about the weight loss or whatever. Like they'll just say, you know, like, you don't know what you're talking about, or I didn't, I didn't ask that. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't ask you. I didn't ask you that. I asked you about, you know, this lump or something like that, like.

David Cooper (35:47)

like the dude with the allergies from earlier with the, you know.

Dr. Cliff Redford (35:57)

or they'll start talking about, you guys are in it with the vaccine companies, or you guys are in it with the pharmaceutical companies or the food companies. And then the gloves are off, and I'll usually, I'll get petty back at them. But the pettiness that I have is thrown in with a whole lot of education and knowledge and whatnot. And I get that tone of voice where it's kind of like,

David Cooper (36:06)

boy.

Dr. Cliff Redford (36:25)

I'm speaking down to them and I'm, I'm, I'm, what's the word condescending. I'm very condescending if I need to be. So do you understand what that condescending, do you understand what that word means? David Cooper. okay. You don't need to me explain it to you. I'm being okay. Well, okay. Good. I'm trying. I'm trying. I'm trying. I've had another funny story. So.

David Cooper (36:27)

Mm.

Yeah.

Yes, I do.

Yeah, I see what you're doing. You're doing a bit. He's doing a bit, ladies and gentlemen. He's doing a bit.

Dr. Cliff Redford (36:50)

People did say on this Facebook page that they often lie about their jobs when they go to the parties. So that's smart, but then, I mean, what if you end up saying something else and the person calls you out on it? Like, yeah, I'm in that job as well. Like, who knows, right? You could just say, no, I don't work. But again, I don't mind.

David Cooper (36:55)

smart!

Yeah, I'm a bum, which is honestly,

if you're a veterinarian saying you're an unemployed bum, it's not a tour. Basically the same thing as I understand it. Maybe you'd know better than me.

Dr. Cliff Redford (37:15)

Yeah, pretty much.

Pretty much. Yeah, they're pretty much the same. This one woman talked about a story about at her mother's funeral, her mother had passed away and the pastor afterwards came and asked her, asked her veterinarian a question about the dog. Now in the end, it had a happy story because the gentleman was very polite and kind of recognized that it was, you know, arguably a bad time.

David Cooper (37:27)

The pastor?

Maybe not the best

time, yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (37:45)

So not the best time,

but he was like, it was urgent and he was really concerned. And then the woman went on to talk about how her mother would have wanted her to help the man and to help with the pet. So this was like, you know, mom testing her one more time to see if she passed. And I guess she did. that's right, that's right. You know, a lot of vets talked about

David Cooper (38:06)

That's real glass half full interpretation there. I would be appalled.

Dr. Cliff Redford (38:13)

hurt feelings like honestly their feelings were hurt because people would only reach out to them when they had you know and that's that's an issue or you know I haven't heard

David Cooper (38:19)

Yeah, yeah, that's...

I feel

weird about that myself. Like there's this concert my girlfriend was talking about going to on New Year's Eve and there's someone I know who could probably get me tickets. He knows a dude in the band and I like this guy. I have a good relationship with him, but I only see him every five years. and for me to reach out, it's like, why Tarnish? The next time I see him will be great buddies, but if I ask him for this favor, you know, the next time I see him, it'll be, he'll be like, he's the dirt bag who...

Dr. Cliff Redford (38:51)

Could be a little weird.

David Cooper (38:54)

made me like ask my friend to get him tickets last minute and he's never done a favor for me and so I'm not doing it.

Dr. Cliff Redford (38:57)

Here's the

question. Is there somehow you can help him out?

David Cooper (39:03)

No, not a chance. So, and he would never ask, you know, and that's why I'm not going to ask him.

Dr. Cliff Redford (39:08)

But

if he was gonna ask, you would say yes. Like what if the shoe was on the other foot? What if you had.

David Cooper (39:16)

Yeah, but this

guy is a good guy. This is like a nice guy. I'm a piece of garbage. I'm human garbage.

Dr. Cliff Redford (39:21)

No, you're a nice guy. You're

a nice guy. What if, I mean, find out what is, ask him what his favorite bottle of whiskey is or something and say, hey, you know, I'd really like that's okay. So those are, this is the segue. And then we can wrap this up into sort of the rules that I've created as I've been going through this. So first of all, doctor, that's right. Reach around rules much better.

David Cooper (39:31)

Guess.

Dr. Cliff's rules for reach outs. His reach around rules.

Dr. Cliff Redford (39:47)

much better. You know, that is why I became a veterinarian because I like to kiss my patients. and it's kind of a while ago we had, we had this puppy come in and the puppy had recently had, you know, its first grooming job. And I literally, like, I sniffed it and said, you smell so good. And then that was the.

David Cooper (39:51)

Mm.

If that was a person, if you were a regular doctor, you

lose your license.

Dr. Cliff Redford (40:09)

Can you, that was exactly our conversation is that, you know, I have the, the, the allowance to be able to say, and, and not only can I say it.

David Cooper (40:16)

Imagine imagine a woman

came to your office for like a breast exam, you know, because you're a general practitioner and the first thing you do is sniff her hair and tell her she smells good. You were saying I interrupted.

Dr. Cliff Redford (40:26)

and go Mrs. Jones, you smell nice.

So, mean, and not only is it allowed, but it's actually, you didn't get five Google stars out of that sort of thing. This guy is so, he loves animals so much. know, maybe a little bit too much. As, what is that comedian's name? Okay, it doesn't matter, it's lost. All right.

David Cooper (40:44)

A little too much, some might say.

Dr. Cliff Redford (40:54)

The first one is have some manners when you reach out.

David Cooper (40:57)

No, you said you were going

to do something and then go into the Cliffs rules. Did we get sidetracked?

Dr. Cliff Redford (41:01)

No,

no, I think I was, I think this was it. No, we're gonna.

David Cooper (41:04)

There was an anecdote. You

said you were, we'll get to, okay, nevermind. All right.

Dr. Cliff Redford (41:07)

Anecdote. Yeah, I talked about sniffing the dog's hair, the dog's fur. Okay, maybe that was it. Maybe that was it. Okay, so the first rule is have some manners when you reach out. So if you're gonna reach out to your veterinarian and you haven't talked to them in a while, or even if they're regular friend, again, have some texting foreplay. Have a quick little conversation when you're reaching out to them. Hey man, I know we haven't talked in a while. How are things?

David Cooper (41:10)

Oh, that was a thing. Okay. Oh yeah, I got so sidetracked on that. That was it. Yeah, that was it.

Dr. Cliff Redford (41:36)

etc, etc. We all know as veterinarians, why you're texting us. We have it is like the pretty woman at the bar. And Mr. David Cooper comes, you know, strutting up and asking, you know, her vague questions about what she likes to drink. I don't know. You can see I'm not in the dating pool. I don't know how to I don't know how to do this. So

David Cooper (41:41)

You

Yeah, me neither. I thought you meet women in

like cornfields or something. I don't know. I don't know where you meet women.

Dr. Cliff Redford (42:02)

I meet them in my vet clinic. This is how I meet them after I sniff their dogs fur. Mrs. Jones. So we all know why you're messaging us. So have some manners and just kind of.

David Cooper (42:04)

after you smooth their dogs.

But question here,

this small talk, doesn't it feel a little like, like why are you asking me how I am, man? You know, I know what you're about to do, just do it. Like for me, I wouldn't want the like, hey, how's it going? How's your girlfriend Miranda? How's New York? Tell me about your last time you were on the radio, da da. And then I'm like, okay, okay, what's, for me it's a bit annoying.

Dr. Cliff Redford (42:33)

It,

it doesn't have to be a long thing. It just, it just shouldn't be, Hey, I have a vet question. I have a problem with my dog, you know, just pleasantries. And I would even add something along the lines of, I know you probably get asked this a lot, you know, just recognize that you are stepping over a line and we're going to, we're going to accept you. We're going to, we're going to be happier for it. Just show, show that, that sign of appreciation, right?

David Cooper (42:39)

I see, okay. Let's start with pleasantries, but don't go too far, yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (43:02)

Obviously don't do it. So rule number two, don't do it too often. Right? That's a major one. you keep doing it every single year, it's like, dude, you got a problem. And that's when people block you. They literally just, I'm not talking to this guy anymore.

David Cooper (43:15)

Yeah. Should

someone say something along the lines of like not demanding too much in return? Like, hey, Cliff, I got this problem. If you're too busy or you don't get a chance to go through this, no issues. Like, should people say that kind of thing?

Dr. Cliff Redford (43:27)

that would be perfect for a play. That would be perfect. That would be perfect. Because it gives us a chance to say, yeah, I am really busy. I'm sorry I can't help you out. Is this life or death? Because if it is, go to the emergency hospital, right? But.

David Cooper (43:45)

A friend of

mine once gave me really good advice that could be used here, Cliff. I was sending some email to do with work. It was my old job and I needed to email like a CEO something and to get permission to do something. So I was emailing someone important. And although the person I was emailing was a woman, but my friend gave me this advice. He said, never send a busy man a long email. And I think that's so true. Like don't like make it succinct, make it short. Did I just ruin your second one? Okay, good.

Dr. Cliff Redford (44:12)

No, you didn't.

The problem is, I call you guys normies. I stole it from the standup comedy world. But you normies, you don't realize 90 % of the info you're gonna give me, I don't need. Right? Like it's this big long history of how many times a day they vomited and what the viscosity of it was and how much time.

David Cooper (44:39)

tasted.

Dr. Cliff Redford (44:40)

All this stuff, right? Like it's just on and on and on instead of just my cat's vomiting three times a day and there's hairballs in it. Like, what do you think? You know what I mean?

David Cooper (44:50)

So it is good advice.

Keep the communication limited. Don't send a novel.

Dr. Cliff Redford (44:55)

Right. But the problem is, you know, I think if you're emailing a busy person, if you're emailing a CEO, you may like, I think you can figure out Mr. Cooper, what is important and what isn't, but when you're not medically trained, you seem to think, and especially when it's your loving pet, you seem to think that every tiny piece of information is critical. And the reality is, is you could give me,

10 words describing three symptoms of your pet and probably without even examining the pet, just hearing those things, I could probably figure out 80 % of the time what the problem is. It's probably diabetes, go and go to your vet, they're gonna check the sugar. It's probably this, it's probably that. So common things happen commonly. I don't know what the saying is, but.

Okay, so number three, and I can't believe I have to say this. Do not ask for a discount. Don't ask for a discount. Don't even comment in some passive aggressive way of your financial troubles. It's like, I'm on disability. So, okay, like your dog's disabled as well because he needs a knee surgery. Like, why are you bringing this up? you're bringing it up because you're hoping I will then

give you some discount when I haven't seen you in forever. Now, the caveat to that is if you can offer something in return, some sort of other skill, there's no problem with bringing up bartering essentially. It's like, man, da da da, what do you think it is? Okay, I took a look at the video, I think your dog's blown its knee ligament, it's super common.

Unfortunately, this surgery is going to cost five or $6,000. And then you could say as an owner, hey, I'm a plumber. Do you need any plumbing done at your house? Like I can't afford this, but is there some way we can work it out as an even trade, you know, to cut the bill? There's nothing wrong with that. If they say,

David Cooper (47:07)

What's the protocol

around offering my body?

Dr. Cliff Redford (47:10)

I mean, you go for it. mean, I, I don't know how much it's worth, but, you could, you could.

David Cooper (47:17)

Well, that'll cover, that'll cover,

that'll get me to 5,999.

Dr. Cliff Redford (47:22)

I would say

how nice do you smell? That's what I would check. Make sure you bathe yourself in puppy shampoo first.

David Cooper (47:29)

Or like

maybe you're a photographer, know, struggling photographer. Hey, your daughter's getting married. I'll shoot the wedding. I don't know, it's things like this. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (47:32)

100%.

100 %

Yeah, 100%. And then if it ever goes to that, it should basically be okay, that surgery is $6,000. For me to do that job is $3,000. So I do that job for free, you take three grand off the surgery. Like, it's got to be an even dollar for dollar. That's how I would do it. Right? I'm not saying this is gonna work. Most of the time it won't. But it's at least a fair conversation, I think, in my opinion.

These are my opinions, know, take them, take them or leave them.

David Cooper (48:06)

Well, part

of me is like, don't get the pet if you can't afford it, but then a part of me think that's an unfair way to look at it because people's life circumstances change to make change. You know, maybe someone has the swimming and money when they get the dog and then they hit misfortune and they can't afford anything for the dog later in life. So, yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (48:13)

Yeah, things change.

Yeah.

Yeah, things happen. And yeah, things happen. So and I mean, I guess the other two is don't argue the point. Like like my friend did. I get that all the time. I'll say what I think it is. And they say, well, I was I was talking to another veterinarian or I was talking to the guy at the pet store. You know, if they asked me about food, I don't even I won't get into those conversations because people are

David Cooper (48:32)

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (48:48)

are emotionally attached to their choice for food.

David Cooper (48:51)

I call this the genius bar paradox. Okay. When you're something wrong with your Mac, you take it to the Mac store and they give you an appointment with a genius at the genius bar who's supposed to know everything about computers. They're supposed to be able to help you. But if you know everything about computers, you can get a better job. No offense to the geniuses, but you can get a job coding and make, you know, five times as much. And so why wouldn't you do that? And so it's like working at the pet. If they're really that much of an expert on pets,

They wouldn't be selling pet food. Again, nothing against people at the pet store. I'm just saying they don't have the expertise as a veterinarian.

Dr. Cliff Redford (49:27)

Well, the thing is the people at the pet store are salespeople. so they know how to, if they're really good at their job, they know how to figure out what you want and tell you what you want to hear. So you're going to buy that bag of food. And the veterinarian's job, if they're really good, is they're just going to say what the truth is, not what you necessarily want to hear.

David Cooper (49:31)

That too.

Dr. Cliff Redford (49:54)

and so don't argue the point. And if you argue the point, then don't expect them to ever help you again. that should be common sense, but it isn't people. People argue my opinion when they're getting free advice. so that's always an issue. don't bad mouth your vets. That's another one. I try not to get into second opinions. If people will say, Hey, I just need a second opinion. I'm like, have you seen your veterinarian? What did your veterinarian say? If it sounds remotely reasonable, say,

That sounds that sounds reasonable. You need to follow up with that. Now, if they I had one person that has a fractious cat, you know that term, we talked about it with tomato and they gave the gabapentin. didn't work and they needed to they had examined the cat. So she's like the cat did fine. Me. So me. did fine during the exam.

David Cooper (50:33)

I do, unfortunately.

Dr. Cliff Redford (50:51)

But as soon as the needle came out with the vaccine, Miso lost his shit. So they had to sedate him. And I said, well, so they did the exam. And she's like, yeah. I said, so they like, listen to the heart felt. Yeah. She said they did everything. Okay. And then they had to sedate me. So yes, were they doing blood? Were they pulling urine? She's like, no, it was just to give the vaccines. How did they give the sedation? She says, well, they stuck them with a needle.

So they stuck them with a needle so that they could then wait 20 minutes from just today to stick them with a needle. And she's like, God damn it. Did I just spend $300 for nothing? Yeah, you kind of did. So unless it's obvious, I won't get into second opinion. So do not bad mouth your veterinarian when you're getting free advice.

David Cooper (51:24)

Stick with a needle.

I

have an anecdote for this one as well. It's like when you're in a job interview, even if your former employer or employer that you're trying to leave is the worst, don't bad mouth them because what you're communicating to the new employer is the potential that everywhere you go, you're the problem. The only common element that you have for these people is they've interacted with this other vet and now they're interacting with you. And so 50 % of their vet relationships as you see them are now bad.

Dr. Cliff Redford (51:41)

Go for it.

David Cooper (52:07)

and they could be the problem. So keep it classy. You don't need to bad mouth the other vet if they're going to you and then you're gonna refer them to someone else or something. Same thing with a job interview. You don't need to bad mouth your former employer. It's not gonna serve you good. It doesn't make you look good. It just makes you look like you might be the problem wherever you go. So I agree with this one completely.

Dr. Cliff Redford (52:27)

We have, we have one veterinarian in our city, maybe two if they include me, but we have one veterinarian in our city that is a total pain in the ass. She's so rude. She's rude to me when I talk to her, she's rude to her staff. Her staff later leave, come to me, you know, some of them have worked for me and we're just like, they're terrified of her. She's so mean and she's mean to clients. She, she, she yells them. She sounds great, but

David Cooper (52:53)

like her, she sounds great.

Dr. Cliff Redford (52:57)

When people come, people will come to me and I will see the record that they've been to see this, this veterinarian. And I'll usually just say, what, you know, what, what makes you come here? And I'm just, I'm just trying to test the waters. Right. And I'll take them regardless as a client, but it does mean a lot to me if they just say, you know, we're just, we're just looking for a change. yeah.

David Cooper (53:21)

Yeah, I'm not happy with the current Fed, you know, we're

just looking for a change, that kind of thing.

Dr. Cliff Redford (53:24)

We had heard

great things about you. So we wanted to give you a try that sort of thing. But if they, if they, my God, so-and-so is a total bitch. And she said this and she said that it's like, well, you know, okay. it's a, is a bit of a red flag and, you know, you put a couple extra stars on their file or something. you know, that sort of thing, but, the last rule for all of this and this maybe sounds cheesy, but thank them. Thank them. Like just, just.

David Cooper (53:36)

It's a red flag, yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (53:54)

You know, and, maybe follow up, you know, maybe don't follow up if they're totally wrong, but you could just say, Hey, I took fluffy to the, I took fluffy to the vet. Like you recommended. I really appreciate your time. Or you can say, I took fluffy to the vet. You were bang on with the diagnosis. I had one of those recently. It was a buddy of in Calgary. And again, the dog had blown its knee ligament and he said, well, you know, the groomer had thought it was just a pulled muscle.

And I said, well, maybe she's right. There's very possible, but the way your dog's walking, I think he's torn a ligament in his knee. It's also super common. It's an easy diagnosis. Go see your vet. They're going to want to do x-rays. They're going to want to this, this and this. Um, and, uh, he came back and he was like, you hit it, you know, you hit it right. Nail on the head. So you were, you were right. So, and, and I appreciate that, uh, because I want to know how things are. I want to know that they actually went and took care of their animal.

Instead of years later, find, hey, whatever happened to that dog that was limping? You know, it didn't get better, so we euthanized him. Did you take him to the vet? Nah, we didn't really. Or yeah, we did, we went and talked to you. You know, if that were to happen, then I would never help them again, which doesn't help their pets, but there's only so much you can do, there you go. But I've never felt...

David Cooper (55:03)

Gross.

Dr. Cliff Redford (55:18)

pressured or that you have crossed the line when you've asked me very, I mean, you very rarely ask me, you know.

David Cooper (55:23)

to check out my cat's anal

glands. I feel like we skipped around that one. There's three times I reached out. First one was he, my cat leaks a little bit of, you know, anal gland juice and that's normal, a little bit, it's normal. So I wanted you to check that out. The other is my cat threw up under the bathtub. We didn't see it for weeks. And then flies laid eggs in the barf, cause that's what flies do. Barf is healthy food. And then,

Dr. Cliff Redford (55:27)

Well.

Yeah.

David Cooper (55:48)

there was little maggots in the barf and I thought, and then I said the maggots died and months later I found the barf cleaning under the bathtub and there was dead maggots in it. And I thought he must have maggots in his body. And so I sent you a photo of it you're like, no, no, they just found the barf and there's no maggots in your cats. And then the third one was he had a little, you know, bald spot and I wanted checking out and you were like, I don't really know what it is, but yeah, take him to the vet, but it's not, but I wanted to know whether I needed to take him to the emergency room.

Dr. Cliff Redford (56:04)

I don't remember any of this.

David Cooper (56:16)

and you're like, no, it

Dr. Cliff Redford (56:17)

gotcha.

David Cooper (56:17)

can wait until Tuesday. It's just a little bald spot. The vet thinks it might be allergies, whatever. Who cares? We're changing his food around. It doesn't matter. That's the three times I did it in what, four years?

Dr. Cliff Redford (56:26)

Yeah, it's been very rare and you did open your doors to me and boiled some water and made me nice herbal tea. I first, yeah, it was very nice. It was very nice. There you go. I don't remember the maggot barf, but I do remember the tea.

David Cooper (56:34)

Did I? That sounds nice to me. You don't remember the anal glands? I don't remember the T. It's funny what we remember.

Well, I still feel bad

for doing it, but I'm glad it created this conversation because part of me feeling bad was me saying, this must happen to you a lot, which is the short version of how I ended up here today.

Dr. Cliff Redford (56:56)

There you go, it worked out great. So that's it, we gotta have you on.

David Cooper (57:00)

This has been VetLife

with Dr. Cliff Redford. Go to www.vetlifewithdrcliffredford.org.net slash free coupon for his practice.com.

Dr. Cliff Redford (57:09)

Whatever.

There you go. How can people find you David? Where are you?

David Cooper (57:15)

Well, they can go to lastshow.pizza. That's the website for my new show, The Last Show. Or just go to jew.pizza, J-E-W, dot pizza. And I put out a show, like a radio, like a talk show. Kind of like a late night talk show vibes. I put out a show every day and hopefully in the new year we'll have some exciting stuff with that. But that's what I do and that's where to find me.

Dr. Cliff Redford (57:31)

Hmm.

It's a great show. I learn a lot, especially the sex therapist. Is she as pretty as her voice sounds? Yeah.

David Cooper (57:42)

It's a show.

She's great, yeah, yeah. She'll be on

on tomorrow. I don't know when you're cutting this out. She'll be on December 30th, and that's I think her 10-year sober mark. I recently hit my five year, so I don't think we'll talk about sex advice, but it should be a good program, December 30th's episode.

Dr. Cliff Redford (57:57)

Wow. Congrats.

There you go. Yeah. I, this will go up, the 31st Tuesdays. I only do it once a week. All right, man. Everyone be kind to animals, be kind to yourself and others and be kind to your. IT guy who doesn't do it anymore. Who wants passed out at a Burning Man. Cheers.

David Cooper (58:08)

Great. Happy New Year. Merry Christmas.

That would be me. Thanks, Cliff.