The Corporatization of Vet Clinics, and a chat with author Vicky McGrath.

We're excited to present a two-part episode for your enjoyment. 

In the first half, I chat with my friend Jessica about her experiences working at a corporate-owned veterinary clinic. 

Be sure to stay tuned for the second half, where I speak with Vicky McGrath, the author of the book *The Dragon and the Mysterious Artifact*.

It can be purchased at https://www.amazon.ca/dp/1774823330

You can keep up with Vicky's books at www.vickymcgrathauthor.com

And follow her on IG at @vicky.mcgrath

Be sure to follow me on Instagram @drcliffworldwidevet.com
Listener questions, episode suggestions, or if you have a good idea for a guest, email me at dr.redford@vet905.com
Additional information can be found at drcliff.ca

Transcript

Dr. Cliff Redford (00:02)

Good day everyone. Welcome to another episode of That Life with Dr. Cliff. In this episode, we've got two guests. First, we're going to be talking to my friend Jessica about the corporatization of veterinary clinics across North America and what it's like working in both a corporate owned versus a privately owned and independently owned kind of mom and pop shop. After my chit chat with her, we're to be talking to author and

Animal passionate, is Vicki McGrath. She has a great children's graphic novel that is full of adventure and wonder and science fiction. And it takes place where it starts off at a veterinarian clinic. So stay tuned.

Dr. Cliff Redford (00:59)

Welcome back everyone to VetLife with Dr. Cliff. I got my friend Jessica here. Jessica is not only a animal lover like me and works at a veterinary clinic, but we both go to the same boxing gym.

best boxing gym in Toronto, TBA. I think it's pretty cool that we got these animal rescuers representing. It's a good way of getting the stress out, eh?

Jessica (01:22)

I like it.

amazing, with all the clients you have to deal with. Yeah, it's pretty good.

Dr. Cliff Redford (01:31)

Um, and my not so subtle segue, the stresses of dealing with, uh, corporate clinics, if you happen to work there. So that's why we were going to chit chat. had, uh, you had reached out to me. I don't know a couple of weeks ago, and I think you were just mentioning that you were leaving your clinic or you'd left your clinic and now you're at an independent one. And then this, this huge, uh, at least huge in Canada, this huge CBC marketplace segment came out. Um, that was.

Jessica (01:57)

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (01:58)

bashing corporate clinics and how they're increasing prices. But I wanted to talk to you about what it's like working at the two different entities.

Jessica (02:09)

Well, it is two totally different worlds. I worked at... Am I allowed to say names?

Dr. Cliff Redford (02:18)

You can say whatever you want.

Jessica (02:20)

Okay, great. So I worked at Jane Animal Hospital and it is a vet strategy owned hospital. And I now work for an independent owner hospital and the difference between how the workload is and the care for the animals and the understanding of the clients is like night and day.

Dr. Cliff Redford (02:50)

Yeah, now when you were at Jane, it originally, were you there before it became corporate?

Jessica (02:58)

I was there when it just became corporate. within days, I got hired when it wasn't and I started when it was.

Dr. Cliff Redford (03:01)

I

Gotcha.

Did you, you got hired when it wasn't? okay. So it was, I think they knew then, they knew that it was going corporate and they needed people.

Jessica (03:17)

They did, so they kind of really sold me on different things like, we have full benefits and we have incentives and things like that. And then I went in and all those things were gone.

Dr. Cliff Redford (03:32)

Oh no. So even that changed. Yeah. Huh. Huh. Um, there would be those that would say that's not, that's not allowed. You legally can't hire somebody and then change the terms. Um, but anyways, it doesn't matter. It doesn't, I mean, you'd have to show that you had other opportunities and you said no to those opportunities and lost money because now you're going to a.

Jessica (03:34)

Yeah, that changed too. yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (04:01)

a that didn't have the same salary or benefits or whatnot. But I would have thought that the corporate clinics paid more benefits and more incentives and whatnot.

Jessica (04:07)

Exactly.

You have to pay for your benefits so they would take a hundred and eighty dollars off every check for your own benefits.

Dr. Cliff Redford (04:23)

If you wanted to do that. Yeah. Or if, yeah. Which is, is better than no benefits at all because you personally would not be able to get, medical benefits, all the extra benefits at 180 bucks a month. It's just impossible. if you had, if you had done extended benefits on your own privately, but, you know, it's still not, it's still not as good. well, I thought, cause I mean, as far as

Jessica (04:46)

That's right.

Dr. Cliff Redford (04:53)

Corporate clinics pay veterinarians way more than private clinics do as a generalization. Plus, and I've had rants on this podcast before about veterinarians electing not to work private and they go to the corporate side, they take these big salaries, these big signing bonuses, like we're talking tens of thousands of dollars as a signing bonus.

Jessica (04:59)

Yeah.

Right.

Dr. Cliff Redford (05:21)

And then they're expected to produce, which for a business is understandable. Cause if I'm going to pay you 25 % more than anywhere else, I need to be able to get that money back. But, it seems like they're paying their veterinarians like that, but not their support team.

Jessica (05:28)

Yeah.

Yeah, definitely not their support team, but from what I have seen and I do have a lot of veterinarians that I'm still friends with who do still work there. That they are really worked to the bone, like to the bone and always asked to sell more, like, you know, to kind of...

Dr. Cliff Redford (05:55)

Hmm.

Jessica (06:04)

do unnecessary things. I would feel that would be unnecessary that don't need to be done for a bigger bill.

Dr. Cliff Redford (06:10)

Yeah.

Yeah. And I

mean, I've obviously never worked for corporate. I've never really worked for anyone else prior to 25 years ago. or since the last 25 years, but yeah, it's like, there's sort of medical protocols and, tests and whatnot being put into place by non veterinarians as well. yeah, it's unfortunate. Now, how long were you there with the corporate clinic?

Jessica (06:30)

Yeah.

Yeah.

three years. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (06:45)

Okay. And you

got in there right when it, right when it sort of transitioned over, did you notice any like changes in, prices changes in, you know, any, anything of that nature?

Jessica (06:51)

Definitely.

100%, like every couple months our exam fees went up, our medication went up, our over the counter went up, our testing went up. It was every couple months.

Dr. Cliff Redford (07:16)

Right, right. And you're on the front desk, so you're the one that's being asked the questions by the clients.

Jessica (07:21)

I am the one who gives the shocker of the bill. get the, so yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (07:25)

Yeah.

Yeah, which

regardless of if it's private or corporate, a pet owner should never go to the front desk without knowing what the fees are going to be. Yeah, which is a big problem. I mean, if there's going to be questions, hey, we got to run a Super Chem CBC, thyroid, urine, we got collected by Sisto, then there's going to be some medication. Yeah. Okay. That sounds good.

Jessica (07:40)

A

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (07:56)

All right, Mrs. Smith, it's going to cost a thousand dollars though. I can't afford it, which is totally reasonable, but you know, it's, it's not a conversation to have in the waiting room. It's a conversation to have with the veterinarian or the technician.

Jessica (08:05)

Yeah,

absolutely. from that article, what I did, what I did notice happen at my clinic a lot is that the animal was taken from the pet and brought to treatment area. Very little discussion about what was going to happen. And they just kind of went full range on, you know, these tests and then come back.

and be like, okay, so we did this, we did this, we did this, and we're hoping for X results. And the owner's like, okay, very confused owners, I remember, in the later times before I had left. I just felt like a lot of compassion and like empathy for the clients were lacking at that time, you know?

Toronto is an expensive place to live and you know, I've seen people give up their life savings for some treatments there and it was just heartbreaking.

Dr. Cliff Redford (09:12)

Yeah, it's tough. And again, that problem with that sticker shock in the front waiting room can happen anywhere, but it's it's more likely to happen, or I guess it's easier to slip it by maybe, or more commonly to slip it by when there's no true owner reachable. I obviously work at my clinic, I'm there essentially six days a week.

Jessica (09:21)

Right.

Dr. Cliff Redford (09:40)

give or take, and it's only me and a part-time veterinarian. so I'm the face, but if I was, you know, older and semi retired and really just doing administration, there's still my name on the door, so to speak. And the owner can, you know, the owner can reach out to me or somehow say, I'd like to speak to the pet owner can say, I'd like to speak to the owner. I'd like to speak to the hospital director.

Jessica (10:06)

Right.

Dr. Cliff Redford (10:07)

Or is that a corporate, the owner is some conglomerate in Europe or some investment firm. Yeah, it's a tough situation. And the hospital director, the head veterinarian air quotes, they're going to basically say this is the policy of the owners. Their hands are tied.

Jessica (10:26)

Right.

That's another thing too. It's hard to say because everyone I did work at with at Jane Animal Hospital, like obviously all loved animals and all passionate about it. But I think what that strategy does to the employees is that like you have a title and they tell you this is your job, but then you

you have to volunteer and then you take on all these other jobs and different roles and different titles, but they pay you the same and you're extremely overworked. And I think that a lot of people who are owned by Vet Strategy, a lot of the employees do get burnt out very quickly. Yeah, and they kind of lose touch with the passion and why they're there, you know.

Dr. Cliff Redford (11:13)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I've said it before on this podcast, like I'm blessed to be working with, again, one and a half veterinarians. And I think we have five technicians, know, two part-time, four full-time equivalents. have five full-time equivalent technicians and another five support staff. I mean, five technicians for one and a half vets is unheard of. And some of them have been with me for 12.

Jessica (11:32)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (11:48)

years, 13 years, some right out of school for 10 years. And the secret is we give a shit about each other, you know? And if I see someone burning out, you know, if they're burning out in the middle of a cardiac arrest, okay, they got to suck it up for the next 10 minutes. But, you know, when those big emergencies happen and those really tough emotional cases,

Jessica (11:52)

May.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (12:16)

You know, it's nice having somebody, the owner, you know, who knows you well, who can say, Hey Jessica, you know, you tried your best. It didn't work out or maybe it did. Cause those are emotionally challenging too. When you save the animal, you know, go and go and take a break and, know, or, head home. It's quiet head home and, and, you know, chill out a couple hours of paid leave. you did your best and we appreciate you and that makes a difference. And, the thing is, is yeah.

Jessica (12:22)

Yeah. It makes.

Dr. Cliff Redford (12:45)

It's huge, right? Yeah. And,

Jessica (12:46)

Yeah, world is.

Dr. Cliff Redford (12:48)

and, and when you've got the owner, especially when they've built the practice and I, and I know that's sort of the situation you're at right now where they're opening up this new, new clinic. So they, we as owners really appreciate and, and, and we bond with our, with our team. We become friends. We know their kids names and their pets names and their hobbies and their

Jessica (12:56)

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (13:11)

You know, their health issues or their interests and, it's,

Jessica (13:16)

Right.

Dr. Cliff Redford (13:16)

you know, it's, it's as a strict numbers sense. if you were to look at it as a spreadsheet, it doesn't make sense, but in the longevity and an enjoyment of life, you know, it's nice working with people you give a shit about.

Jessica (13:32)

100 % Dr. Kate Zimmerman and Dr. Heidi Wong, they go out of their way to make sure that I'm okay, I'm comfortable, that the workload isn't too much and like

They really, it's been such a difference to have them as employers and then to have that strategy as employers and just their overall care for animals and their overall care for the client, realizing, know, cost-wise, they will never do anything without discussing with the clients and it's just, I've never seen two doctors.

work so well because I started out with a Vet Strategy Clinic.

Dr. Cliff Redford (14:18)

Right, right. That was your first introduction to the vet world. It was three years ago.

Jessica (14:24)

Well, I work

for Dublin. I worked for the SPCA as well. But like, as for Toronto, was just absolutely... So when they had offered me the job, I took it immediately because I just didn't like the way that animals were being treated, the staff was being treated, or even the clients. It was all a money game. was more like, instead of booking ear infections, let's book

Dr. Cliff Redford (14:29)

Okay.

Jessica (14:54)

more annual so we could sell more next guard. know, it was more like that at FedStrategy.

Dr. Cliff Redford (15:00)

What if the animal has an ear infection?

Jessica (15:02)

Yeah, we did. just we

have an appointment for months because we just want they just wanted us to book annuals for the third.

Dr. Cliff Redford (15:09)

That's interesting

because I'm surrounded by, think the four clinics closest to me are all now corporate owned. And I mean, half of Markham, just like half of Toronto, just like half of North America, the privately, these small clinics are 50 % private, 50 % corporate. But I've got these four around me and the closest one sold two and a half years ago. mean, God bless the owner. She had had.

Jessica (15:18)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right

Dr. Cliff Redford (15:39)

major health issues a decade ago. She was probably in her early sixties. It's time to retire. And she left, six months ago. She's now fully retired and I am getting so many new clients. And I would probably say 75 % of my new clients,

Jessica (15:45)

Right

Dr. Cliff Redford (15:58)

if they're coming from another clinic, they're coming from a corporate clinic. And one of the things they're saying is you saw me when my dog had an ear infection, you fit me in, even though you're a booked up.

And they wouldn't see me for weeks and I couldn't figure out how, how do you, how are you so busy that you can't do that? But maybe that's not the case. Maybe you're telling me they're actually saying the money's not in the simple sick patient. It's either in the annual and the really sick patient.

Jessica (16:12)

Yeah. 100%. Yeah.

Exactly, it's all about the surge and it's about selling product, selling NexGuard, selling and like telling people who could only afford one month's NexGuard being like, no, you should buy the whole box and you know, $350 later and then adding it to the bill too. They've just added to the bill and they're like, what's on this bill? They're like, we never asked for a NexGuard and things like that. So

We wouldn't have any room to book clients or patients for ear infections, for limps, for things like that because they specifically told us to do it that way. Whereas my elder would, a veterinary clinic, they will make room, they will make appointments. They're like, an ear infection is terrible. We will see you, we'll make, we'll find a way to see you, which is.

Dr. Cliff Redford (17:04)

Hmm.

Right.

Yeah, we'll squeeze

you in.

Jessica (17:26)

Yeah, it's absolutely incredible there. Like, I feel less stressed. I feel happy going into work. The team is amazing. And it's just, I felt like I was drowning actually in, in, in that strategy. Like I just, I was doing management things. I was training, but also I'm not a trainer, but training staff. was kind of all over the place. It was.

They make you work a lot, but they won't give you the title. You know, they won't give you the

Dr. Cliff Redford (17:56)

Right,

Yeah, yeah. Boy, boy. So you're at a much greener pastures now and I did a quick check on the, on the new clinic. It's all, it's only been open months. Like how long, sorry. my goodness. And two things, two things made me so proud to be a veterinarian and that there, that

Jessica (17:59)

Yeah.

Free.

Three weeks now. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (18:25)

that your two colleagues are veterinarians. One, they're open seven days a week. That's amazing.

Jessica (18:35)

They're closed on Fridays and Saturdays, but we are open on We do the Sunday thing, so we kind of get clients that way. But a lot of our clients have followed the doctors over because they are so great to the pets and they take their time to speak and they're very thorough and they're just good.

Dr. Cliff Redford (18:38)

Okay. okay.

were they working at the same hospital that you were prior?

Jessica (19:04)

No, but they welcomed at different hospitals, right? So, but they've, they've took in this place and just made it in the apps. It's the most beautiful hospital I've ever seen. It's, and they've really, they really put everything into it. And definitely I feel like it paid off because it's absolutely beautiful. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (19:07)

I'll catch ya.

Excellent, excellent. I also found it fascinating and hilarious and quite smart on their part that, you know, Instagram has been sending me veterinarian ads. You know, if I just click into you, hey, you're working at a vet clinic, all of a sudden I'm getting veterinarian ads. And their ad specifically says independently owned.

Jessica (19:51)

I thought that was a very smart move as well because it is, I think things being owned by corporate are just getting so incredibly expensive that people are actively looking for privately owned hospitals, which I don't blame them either.

Dr. Cliff Redford (20:10)

I would say it's probably half of the time it's something that someone on the phone, a shopper calls when they call us, they ask us who owns it? Is this corporate or is this private? And when they say, it's private, then they may say, am I actually going to get to see him occasionally? It's like, yeah, yeah. Dr. Cliff's actually here more than anyone else. Yeah. So, unless I'm gallivanting in the Arctic or something, they get to see me quite regularly.

Jessica (20:16)

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (20:39)

yeah, so this is, I mean, it's, it, sounds like marketplace was right. I mean, they were talking about, the increase in prices and they were talking about sticker shock at the front door and that the loss of emotional connection, with the animal, with the owner and with the veterinarian and the veterinarian team. and it's, you know, it's, it's turning into some of these clinics are turning into the McDonald's of.

Jessica (20:51)

Right.

Yes.

Dr. Cliff Redford (21:07)

Well, that wouldn't be right because McDonald's is really inexpensive, you know, a whatever it is, some sort of Abercrombie and Finch or something, some sort of expensive situation. So it's interesting. What do you think the future holds for the vet industry? Do you think corporate clinics are going to continue to grow and become more common or do you think we're hitting a tipping point where the animal owning world is just fed up with it?

Jessica (21:09)

Yeah.

Yeah.

I unfortunately feel like they're gonna take over. Unfortunately. Like, I wish that wasn't the case. It's just that they've taken so much already and

You know, people love their pets, but what they're actually doing is just making people not be able to provide for their pets. You know, and that's just sad. But hopefully it's wrong and hopefully that could that could not be the case. What do you think?

Dr. Cliff Redford (22:11)

yeah, I'm not as doom and gloom with you as you are, but I don't think it's going to correct that much. think, I think the next 15 years or so there's going to be, I mean, the growth has slowed down with corporate clinics, but there's still going to be a growth. And the reason is, is people like me and a little bit older than me, the veterinarians are retiring and the majority of younger veterinarians don't want to own.

Jessica (22:34)

You're right.

Dr. Cliff Redford (22:40)

That's the reality. And even if they do, they can't go up against the corporations for selling the clinic and like for the sale price. And the reality is I was approached, know, this became a huge buyer's or seller's market about four years ago, right? As the pandemic was ending and whatnot. And they approached me and through a broker and several of them approached me.

Jessica (23:01)

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (23:10)

And they were offering me honestly, two and a half times what I thought I would get. And so I started to have the conversation with them. I thought this would be stupid for me to turn up, turn, turn over this money. would really help with my family. my mom was going through financial issues, et cetera, et cetera. It fell through. It didn't work out. I'm now glad it didn't. I'm really, really happy, but.

Jessica (23:15)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (23:38)

You know, the reality is, is 10 years from now, 15 years from now, unless I have a kid who's in the vet world, which it doesn't look like it's going to happen. you know, if it means selling it, I'm just making these numbers up, but if it means selling to, you know, a private person, you know, my associate for 2 million versus a corporation for 2.5, I'll take the loss and I'll sell it to, to my associate. But, you know, if it's.

Jessica (23:47)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Right.

Right.

Dr. Cliff Redford (24:07)

2 million versus 4 million. I'm sorry, I don't think I can pass that up, right? So we need to find a way to make it so that it's more exciting for younger vets to own clinics because it is exciting.

Jessica (24:22)

It is, that would be my dream. Just the fact that I get to work with animals and help them is, I'm happy doing that for the rest of my life and boxing, that's all I wanna do.

Dr. Cliff Redford (24:35)

You're going to step in the ring sometime? Yeah. How long have you, how long have you been throwing down? How long have you been boxing?

Jessica (24:38)

yeah, definitely. I can't wait.

for quite some time. did it when I was younger and I just started at Toronto Boxing Academy about like five months ago. But yeah, but Brock was telling me, he's just like, let's get you sparring. I'm doing pretty, pretty proud of myself there and I feel great every time I leave there. So.

Dr. Cliff Redford (24:54)

that's it, okay.

Beautiful.

I love it. love,

I came, you know, I came from a judo background, competed very heavily until I was about 42, 43. Did some other striking sports, but never, never, never fell in love and then had a hip replacement four years ago. So there goes anything that involves kicking. And yeah, but I had always wanted.

Jessica (25:16)

Yeah.

my-

Dr. Cliff Redford (25:33)

It was on my bucket list to do, you know, like a single charity match. You know, I knew what it was like to compete in judo, but I didn't really know what it was like to get punched in the face. other than, know, other than the occasional, you know, tussle with my brother or with, you know, some jerk at school or something. and those have happened, but it's different, right? and then, yeah, we started thinking about it. We did a friendly, a year and a half ago, maybe.

Jessica (25:38)

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (26:03)

at TBA. I fought Sir Andrew, the Blue Knight from Medieval Times.

Jessica (26:09)

Nice.

Dr. Cliff Redford (26:09)

Yeah, it was fun. It was just sort of like whoever gets the loudest cheer afterwards wins. I got the loudest cheer. My brother jokes and says, well, since you beat Sir Andrew the night, don't you get his castle? doesn't that, isn't that, or he has to give you a sword or something, doesn't that how, isn't that how it works? But

Jessica (26:16)

Yeah. Yes.

I think so.

Dr. Cliff Redford (26:30)

It was Brampton cup, which for those that are listening, this just, you know, this is happening this weekend. I couldn't make it, but Brampton cup was my first, my first competition. and I, I haven't looked back ever since. I spar, try and spar with, with Brock coach Brock and then other people twice a week. And I mean, damn it. It's so much fun.

Jessica (26:36)

Yep.

Yeah,

I tried to spy with Godfrey I'll get him one day I know

Dr. Cliff Redford (26:56)

Yeah, his, his, his leaping lead hook is

so unbelievable. And he was actually, he was coaching Andrew and our friendly match and Andrew caught me in the ribs and I had hurt my ribs two weeks prior and Andrew didn't notice me wincing and Godfrey did now Godfrey because we all go to the same gym and it's a friendly, he didn't tell Andrew start targeting his ribs.

Jessica (27:05)

Click.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (27:26)

thank goodness,

but we've sparred a few times and he just, he goes for it every time. He just says, I'm going to break your ribs. If we joke about competing, cause he, he competes in, Mexico and these, these fighters that he goes up against, they don't even last one round and not even, and, and, and he's amazing. And I'm like, I'm pretty sure I could last a round with you. And he jokes, he says, there's no way I would break your ribs. I'd break you from the inside.

Jessica (27:41)

Yeah Not even one is incredible Yeah Yeah,

I he laughs at me all the time I tried to fight Steve into and he's like five I'm like, let's go, you know

Dr. Cliff Redford (27:58)

Yeah, beauty, beauty.

makes the, it makes the regular guys, so much easier. That's why, like for me competing against another 50 year old, that's my height with my level of experience is easy when it's, you know, you've been sparring with Godfrey and, and Steven and they, the surprise rookie Brian. Holy geez. It's like a wizard, but, yeah, boxing's amazing. And, there should be like a boxing veterinarian,

Jessica (28:09)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I know, incredibly. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (28:27)

and vet tech competition, because I bet you a lot of vet techs and vets would really love it.

Jessica (28:32)

that would be it would just be a bloodbath fun letting it all all the tension is so good

Dr. Cliff Redford (28:36)

They will all be like scream in the names of

clients and bosses that we hated over the years and taking it out on the poor person in front of us.

Jessica (28:45)

Thank you.

I'd be like,

that's strategy then I just give her.

Dr. Cliff Redford (28:54)

Yeah. What,

what nights you there that you're sparring? Cause we've never really crossed paths.

Jessica (28:59)

So Tuesdays and Thursdays.

Dr. Cliff Redford (29:02)

Yeah, I got to figure something

out then. Maybe I'll move my schedule around a few times and come by on a Tuesday night.

Jessica (29:08)

350 pounds the other day, but you're in it you live lift 305 my goodness

Dr. Cliff Redford (29:11)

Who's that?

no, was 305. It was just

305. Yeah. mean, whatever. I'd say I'll take it easy on you, but you're going to go after my ribs. So, I'm going to, I'm going to keep it. I'll keep it guarded. We'll definitely do it. I'll come out with a, with a bruised rib and I'd say you'll come out with a, a black eye or something, but I can't think about that. That's not, that's not appropriate.

Jessica (29:28)

Definitely. Yeah, for sure.

Okay.

Dr. Cliff Redford (29:44)

I should say the very first, before we wrap this up, because everyone's like, whatever, we don't care. The very first person I sparred against and I didn't even recognize her with all of her gear on was Sarah. Brock's, yeah, Brock's wife. And I hadn't seen her that many times. And then, and again, the gear was on and the mouth guard and different clothing and, her hair was put away and it was like tucked up and.

Jessica (29:48)

Yeah.

No way!

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (30:12)

I guess she's my height. She's probably taller because I'm pretty short. I'm only about five, seven, but, I went in there with not a lazy jab. was a good jab was my first throw, but I didn't sidestep or move my head. kept my head

Jessica (30:18)

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (30:28)

in the midline and for about two, three, four jabs in a row, she just snapped me with the same jab exactly the same time. And it was just every time, bam, bam, bam. And it's like, all right, I got to start moving my head.

Jessica (30:36)

Yeah I

to think so

Dr. Cliff Redford (30:43)

Um, yeah. So, uh, uh, women who box are, uh, are beasts. That's, uh, that's for sure. And for certain. Yeah, perfect. All right, man, let's wrap this up. Uh, this has been wonderful. It sounds like you're in a such a wonderful place now, which is fantastic.

Jessica (31:01)

Yeah!

Dr. Cliff Redford (31:01)

And, you know, everybody, uh, you know, show some love to your independent vet clinics, your mom and pop shops. Um,

Jessica (31:05)

Elder

Nick come by and we have the open so if you have time you should come check it. Yeah, that's February 9th at 2 o'clock

Dr. Cliff Redford (31:14)

That's right. What day is that again?

Sunday, February 9th. Perfect. I will stick it in my calendar. Excellent. Thank you very much, Jessica.

Jessica (31:20)

Yeah. All right.

Thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Cliff Redford (31:27)

My pleasure.

Dr. Cliff Redford (31:36)

right, everyone welcome back to VetLife with Dr. Cliff. I have a good friend of mine here who shares a lot of things in common with me, but the two things we're gonna talk about are,

fact that she is an author and she loves animals. So how you doing Vicky?

Vicky McGrath (31:53)

I'm

terrific. Thanks for having me on the show.

Dr. Cliff Redford (31:55)

My pleasure. Let's jump right in this. Let's talk about Tales from the Clinic. Book one, so that means there's gonna be more books coming out. This is your, I guess you'd call it a graphic novel.

Vicky McGrath (32:06)

Yes,

that's right. It is my debut tween fantasy graphic novel and you're correct book one so it's one of seven so six more will be coming along at some point whenever I feel like it's the right time I think probably once a year is about right for for book releases so yeah that one

Dr. Cliff Redford (32:14)

Beauty.

That's fair. Yeah,

that's fair. And everyone can get this on Amazon. You're gonna send me the link. I'm gonna add it to the summary of the podcast. You guys can check that out. And you've already had a good little sort of initial sales stint on Amazon, haven't you?

Vicky McGrath (32:46)

Yes,

I launched January 7th and got the Amazon International Best Seller credit. Whatever that means just means that you sell a certain amount on your launch day. So yeah, it's already on Amazon and available for people to order in three formats, paperback, hard copy and ebook.

Dr. Cliff Redford (33:10)

beautiful. Okay. And so it tells, it's the story of Sam and Julia, 11 year olds. I guess they grew up kind of together because their parents own a clinic. Their moms own a clinic. So they're like best friends right from birth. They sort of made a joke about that. you go and tell us without giving any spoilers away, you tell us about it. And then I've got some questions about books two to seven.

Vicky McGrath (33:36)

Sure. Well, that book came out of my mind in 2021 during COVID. And, you know, I have my own business, it's a senior care business. Everything changed for many businesses through COVID. We were, you know, having to re-navigate a whole new world. And Sydney, my daughter, was home from school taking online classes.

And so, you we were feeling kind of anxious and isolated by the whole experience. And I decided that I needed a creative outlet. And that's kind of how that first book came to be. It was inspired by Sydney's desire to become a veterinarian and our shared love of Harry Potter. And that's how the first one came out. And then, you know, in quick succession, the other six kind of came right along the heels.

So they're all essentially ready to go. And they do all follow Sam and Julia. They're the main characters. each book has them helping out at their mom's veterinary clinic. And they get into multi-dimensional adventures with the patients. that's essentially each book will be another adventure, a new patient, a new adventure, but the same characters.

So they incorporate themes of friendship, love, bravery, and I always add a good dash of fun and humor. Because that's, know, why else are you gonna read a book unless it's entertaining?

Dr. Cliff Redford (35:10)

the

Yeah, yeah. So this trans dimensional thing makes me, it makes me chuckle because I have a friend of mine who's a veterinarian in California and an eye specialist and a surfer dude. That's how we sort of became buddies. And he wrote a full length fiction novel. I'm going to mess up the title because it's like Dr. Meta fungars trans dimensional clinic, something like that.

but it's like a Doctor Who slash Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. It's quite hilarious and odd and amazing, but it too has a trans-dimensional portal. People are gonna start to think that this is what goes on at vet clinics. Maybe it does. Maybe people need to check this out.

Vicky McGrath (36:03)

Yeah,

I think you could probably claim that that happens all the time. You just never know what's going to happen in the clinic.

Dr. Cliff Redford (36:09)

Yeah, maybe, That's right, that's right. Or

we're partaking in some of the ketamine. We don't do that, we don't do that. So in this book, Julia and Sam are 11, you've sort of got the stories all made up. So they're gonna stay around that age or like Harry Potter, do they age with each version?

Vicky McGrath (36:16)

Hahaha!

Yeah,

I'm going to keep them the same. it's not like one story arc, which is what Harry Potter is, right? Harry Potter is one story arc, but these are individual quests, I guess you could call them. So it's a little bit different. It's just the sort of magical adventures, I guess, that are similar.

Dr. Cliff Redford (36:35)

Yeah, nice.

Right, right, right. So you could read book three and then go back to book one and it wouldn't really be that much of an issue.

Vicky McGrath (36:58)

Well, you would want to read

them in order if you could, but it's not going to be, you you're not going to miss out. I'm going to have, shall we say, connecting links among them so that it does make it more interesting to read all of them. But you can read them individually as well.

Dr. Cliff Redford (37:05)

Gotcha.

Does Tom the Cat come back in some other books? I gotta know. I gotta know. Okay. Okay, so yeah, I guess we can't really talk about Tom the Cat too much without giving away some exciting Night Shyamalan type surprises. Have you ever been compared to Night Shyamalan?

Vicky McGrath (37:21)

You'll have to wait and read the next ones.

No,

I kind of think that's a little bit dark. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (37:45)

It is, it is.

Yes, yours is not dark, but it is, it is, it's a surprise. It's a, a bit of a twist. yeah.

Vicky McGrath (37:52)

Right, yes. Yeah, and that's, that's for sure. There's

plot twists, there's foreshadowing, you know, there's literary mechanisms, but it's definitely a commercial, commercial novel, right? It's certainly not a literary fiction piece. Like, like Harry Potter really is a litter is still a literary piece, where I think mine is probably more what would be considered commercial, because it doesn't really have, you know, the the depth to kind of go through every

little piece of the discussion or text.

Dr. Cliff Redford (38:25)

Yeah, mean, graphic novels are like that anyways. I grew up as a huge fan and still am of comic books and graphic novels and they're punchier. They're faster. They're faster pace. You don't have to describe the, the, the cavern or the cave or the, know, if there happens to be a dragon in the story, you don't have to describe the dragon because you can draw it out. You know, it makes it, it makes it for a nice fast read and yet still have a lot of imagination.

Vicky McGrath (38:29)

Me too. Yep.

Yeah, right.

Exactly.

Dr. Cliff Redford (38:55)

and enjoyment, which is great. I love graphic novels, usually darker than this, much darker, The Death of Robin or The Watchmen, know, stuff like that. The Walking Dead graphic novels are so violent compared to the TV show, which is saying something, because the TV show is quite violent, but who knows?

Vicky McGrath (39:00)

Hahaha!

Yes, I've got the watchman on my shelf right here.

Now.

Dr. Cliff Redford (39:22)

no, I really, really enjoyed it. And, it's got some pretty cool metaphysical quantum physics kind of, theoretical physics going on there, which is, which is neat. My brother's a, I talk to him. I talk about him a lot on this podcast, him being an aeronautical space engineer with a master's degree. So, you know, this always makes me think of him. when I hear, when I read these sort of,

again trans-dimensional type of conversations, which I enjoyed.

Vicky McGrath (39:54)

Yeah, well, that came from,

you know, part of my experience through COVID was, you know, dealing with anxiety. And I tried a lot of, I would say, personal development work through the process of, you know, coming out the other side. And one of my

I guess, interest was Bob Proctor. I'm not sure if familiar with him, but he is a personal development Canadian, actually, in the personal development space. And he is one that always talks about how everything is energy. And essentially, you can create your own reality out of your thoughts, because thoughts are energy, ideas are energy. So you can, know, everything in our lives, everything in our world was once first an idea.

and somebody pursued it enough to make it into a functional item on your life, right? Like the iPhone, for example, right? So that was kind of the premise behind the storyline as well, was really just so that kids have the ability to choose their thoughts as opposed to just feel anxious or feel isolated. They can actually choose to feel better if they want.

Dr. Cliff Redford (41:04)

Hmm.

Yeah, it's like, I mean, you can be afraid of something that, know, like if there's a lion walking through your backyard, yeah, you should be afraid, but most anxieties and most positive and negative emotions, you almost have, you have power over them. and, and I truly believe that sort of, I don't know if you want to call it karma or

Vicky McGrath (41:23)

Exactly.

Dr. Cliff Redford (41:33)

Fate in the sense of, know, these fates are watching and they're kind of weaving a web in front of you depending upon your actions and your energies. like, it seems to me, this is sort of off topic, but it seems to me like people in my past or even in my present, and, you know, they come and they complain about the service that they had at a restaurant. And the service they had was really poor.

so they're, they're right to sort of be upset by it, but it always seems to happen to the same person. And there, there must be some sort of, and I hate to kind of blame the victim in this sort of situation, but there must be some sort of energy that you're either attracted to those without knowing it, obviously to those negative encounters or something about the, energy that's coming off you.

doesn't mesh with the energy of the person beside you and then how you react and it just sort of snowballs. So it seems to happen a lot to always the same people and it probably has something to do with these types of, know, manifest your own futures and your destinies and whatnot, which is true, know, setting goals is essentially the beginning of and writing them down and telling people and making it formal.

That's way of manifesting your future. And I believe in that sort of theory strongly.

Vicky McGrath (43:05)

Yeah,

and I think, you know, what we don't realize about our thoughts is that what we practice is what we get, right? And so you don't really think about thoughts as something that you practice, but really and truly, if you're practicing worry, if you're practicing fear, if you're practicing, thinking to yourself that somebody's not giving you the greatest customer service and that you always get poor customer service everywhere you go, then that's what comes, right? Because that's what the brain does. The brain

has the little reticular activating system in it that just basically looks for evidence of whatever you're thinking, right? So if it's looking for supportive evidence of what you're thinking, then it's going to give you more of what you've been thinking. And so that's why I say it's important to practice what you want to think.

Dr. Cliff Redford (43:39)

Mm-hmm.

Vicky McGrath (43:51)

and think what you wanna think and that way, you can practice things like everything is always going my way or things are always working out for me or everybody's always so friendly, everyone's always so helpful, everywhere I go, everyone's supporting me. If you just think positively, then that's what your brain starts to look for and that's what you see before you.

Dr. Cliff Redford (43:52)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. I've heard a saying, very recently over and over again on another podcast, and I might screw it up a little bit, but it's something like attitude is more infectious than the flu. or psychology is more infectious than the flu. And that's another part of it, right? Like if you surround yourself with, you know, negative Nancy's and negative Normans, you're gonna, you're gonna, your cortisol level is gonna spike.

Your blood pressure is going to spike. You're going to be kind of jumpy when it comes to emotional or physical challenges. But if you surround yourself with chill people and positive people and magical creatures at the vet clinic, then some cool stuff can happen to you for sure. I used to compete years ago in adventure racing, which is like a multi-sport 36 plus hour, right? I have you? Okay.

Vicky McGrath (44:54)

you

Yeah, I've done them.

Dr. Cliff Redford (45:08)

And, and I wasn't, I was a good cyclist, but I'd never really, mountain biked and, my friends who were big time mountain bikers, they, they taught me the lesson and I taught the lesson myself, some, you know, often the hard way at the beginning that if you look at that rock and say, don't hit that rock, don't hit that rock, you're hitting the rock. That's where you're going. so it's the same sort of thing. If you're out there looking for negatives,

Vicky McGrath (45:25)

That's where you're going.

Dr. Cliff Redford (45:37)

you know, subconsciously and then focusing on those negatives when, when they do happen and they're going to happen to anybody. but that's what you end up, you end up hitting that rock, instead of, you know, look for the safe spot and keep your feet peddling and you'll, and you'll likely be fine. Yeah, you'll likely be fine. now you had talked, you talked about utilizing this book as a, fundraisers and whatnot.

Vicky McGrath (45:47)

Yeah.

That's right. Look ahead.

Dr. Cliff Redford (46:04)

What, tell me more about what you had in mind.

Vicky McGrath (46:07)

So one of the things that always interested me was at my own vet clinic, had the Farley Fund. And it occurred to me that, you know, they were always, they always had their little sort of donation opportunity out on their counter when you were paying. And so it occurred to me that I could use my book for, you know,

Dr. Cliff Redford (46:19)

Mm-hmm.

Vicky McGrath (46:35)

donations basically. So I could donate my books to vets such as yourself. You could sell them at your clinic and use the money that you get from the book to put towards your charity of choice. So I know you've just gone to Calowit. I know you help a lot with Shades of Hope Wildlife Center. so, you know, things like that could be

Dr. Cliff Redford (46:54)

Mm-hmm.

Vicky McGrath (47:01)

could be assisted or supported through selling my books at your clinic. And the relationship is there because it is based in a veterinary clinic. So it's not like it's some kind of a foreign concept. There is a connection there. It would be easy for vets to sell at their clinic. could just have it exactly like my vet did have it right on the checkout counter and say, you know, would you like to buy a book and support our charity? And so that's what I was thinking when I was talking about that with you.

Dr. Cliff Redford (47:12)

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Vicky McGrath (47:30)

So I think this was kind of my ploy to get you to be my guinea pig so that A, I could support your volunteer work, which I think you do a great job everywhere you go. And also to perhaps, you know, get other vets to think that they might be interested or open to it as well.

Dr. Cliff Redford (47:37)

Hahaha

Yeah. All right. That sounds great. Yeah, that's a great, that's a great idea. and yeah, I mean, whether it's the Farley foundation, which for those who don't know is a provincial here in Ontario, though I think there's similar ones in other, provinces. and it's a charity where funds are provided to people that are on, government assistance, disability, to help with emergency care.

for their veterinary, for their pets. So, uh, it helps with veterinarian bills and then they have a limit. I think it's about $2,000. Um, and then a lot of vet clinics will match it or, uh, we'll, know, conveniently forget some fees to keep it, uh, uh, within reach. So it's been a hugely successful charity, um, probably for the last 25 years, um, at least cause I've owned my clinic 25 years and I think it was before I bought my clinic. So.

No, it's great. And, you know, for people who are interested in this book, and again, it can be purchased through Amazon in those three different formats. It's not, I mean, it takes place at a vet clinic and it definitely shows a, it shows a true life very quickly of, know, the two passionate parents and then how they've spread that passion for animal care and just work ethic to their two kids.

but you don't have to be an animal lover to, to, read this. It's more, I think it's more for the sci-fi. It's more for the fantasy sci-fi. you know, never ending story, Harry Potter, anything by CS Lewis, again, Dr. Who, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. They all, if you like those and if you want your kids to like those and any good parent wants their children to, to appreciate those, I think.

Vicky McGrath (49:27)

Ha ha ha!

Dr. Cliff Redford (49:48)

to appreciate those authors. Then let's get them enjoying Vicki McGrath's book as well. Yeah, perfect. As we wrap this up, anything you wanna add, we can even talk about other things or we can keep talking about the book. I don't wanna miss anything.

Vicky McGrath (49:55)

Thank you. Yeah.

So how did your trip go to Iqaluit?

Dr. Cliff Redford (50:10)

Yeah, Calwit was amazing. It was nine days. We ended up getting stuck for a day due to ice on the wing, which happens. And sometimes it's so bad that they can't, they can't de-ice the wing fast enough. Last year we got stuck for two nights for a similar thing. But it was a huge success. This year was a little different because it wasn't just myself.

Vicky McGrath (50:30)

Hmm.

Dr. Cliff Redford (50:39)

my daughter and my son, also Arthur, the technician came from my clinic and having, mean, Emily can put in catheters, Emily can intubate, though she kind of got some help and learned through Arthur. And Brandon can do a lot of tech skills as well, but having someone formally trained who works with me day to day was huge. We were able to do four or five surgeries a day.

Double up on appointments in the afternoon. So Arthur was doing vaccine appointments, like regular vaccine appointments. And then I would deal with sick patients or can you look at this lump? And then we had a vaccine clinic and we did like a free vaccine clinic where we vaccinated about 70 dogs and one cat for rabies for people who couldn't afford going to the animal hospital, couldn't afford traveling to the animal hospital, which is five kilometers away in a little community called Apex.

so arguably just outside of a Callowit though, it's sort of the same, the same municipality and whatnot. So it was, it was incredible. And then we came back with these seven cute little puppies. Yeah. We came back with these seven little, cute puppies, named after the, colors of the rainbow. There's Indigo, periwinkle, orange, yellow, blue, red. I'm missing one. I always forget one. Indigo, periwinkle, orange, yellow, blue, red.

Vicky McGrath (51:44)

I was gonna say.

It's Roy G. Biv. Yeah, Roy G. Biv. That's the rainbow. Red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet.

Dr. Cliff Redford (52:04)

Tangerine, tangerine, yeah. Is there an acronym for it? Roy G. Biv.

so they did, they, guess they, instead of doing violet, they kind of didn't, they did periwinkle and then they added tangerine. they've all found homes. That's the amazing thing. So after a week, I mean, it was a whirlwind of TV appearances. it was funny only one. I reached out to media before going, I want to tell the story. I'm a shameless self promoter. as, some people joke,

Vicky McGrath (52:17)

They did pair it up.

goody.

Dr. Cliff Redford (52:43)

And, only the morning show, of course, cause I'm on there all the time. The morning show, wanted to, to talk about my adventures, but, no one really was interested. And then I emailed everyone again, about three days before leaving and included the photos and confirmation that I'm bringing seven puppies home. Well, then everybody wanted, you know, I, did, CBC radio and CTV online and

the social and breakfast television and all these different things. So the puppies, that's it. That's it. That's it. I mean, I've been on the morning show probably 30 times and I keep joking that I'm trying to get to the front desk for like an opening shot. And I bring these cute puppies on and right away they bring the puppies up. So I'm getting replaced by a younger, cuter version.

Vicky McGrath (53:13)

there's your ticket. See, you've got to have puppies.

Hahaha

Dr. Cliff Redford (53:37)

It's just

like Hollywood, just like Hollywood. So was a great time. It's always good. We did a lot of good work. We helped a lot of animals and we're looking forward to going back again. We kind of talk about going in the summer this time, but they have other vets willing to go in the summer and they don't have a vet willing to go in January. And I enjoy it.

Vicky McGrath (53:56)

Mm-hmm, yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (54:02)

Uh, it's a lot of fun even in January, so I might have to stick with that just because the needs there. Yeah.

Vicky McGrath (54:07)

Yeah, well, I think

summer probably just includes a lot more bugs.

Dr. Cliff Redford (54:13)

Yeah, they

say they say there's like a three week period where you cannot walk outside without a full bug mask, full coverage, or else they'll carry you up to their lair. But I guess when you start to get into like late August and September, the nights are pretty cold. So I think that kills off the mosquitoes. But because it's, you know, 20 hours of sunlight during August,

Vicky McGrath (54:20)

coverage.

Dr. Cliff Redford (54:42)

And then the opposite in January, 20 hours of darkness. in August, the wildflowers are everywhere and the colors apparently are just so vibrant and so overwhelming to the senses. it's like a trans dimensional, location. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. And they just, they just suck up that chlorophyll, like crazy. So, it would be fun, but I mean,

Vicky McGrath (54:49)

neat.

Yeah, they've got to go while they can.

Dr. Cliff Redford (55:09)

I think when you go up north, have to at least experience the cold once, you know, because it is a, it's like Empire Strikes Back. It's like that ice planet, Hoth or Hoth, something like that. was like that. was so, yeah, there was no Yeti. That I know of. mean, there probably was, but it was quite an adventure. loved it. Yeah, perfect.

Vicky McGrath (55:22)

gosh, yeah, and you need to be stuck into some creature.

Yeah, cool. That's very good. And you've got your

book coming up somewhere.

Dr. Cliff Redford (55:39)

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, you know, because you're reading it. Thank you. You're part of Cliff's

book club. So I have finished. I finished the 94,000 words, or at least I edited down to 94,000. I read it while I was in a Calowitz. I still cry when I when I read some of those parts and still laugh. But I always worry that it's because I remember those patients or I remember the stories. But a few people have now reached out.

Vicky McGrath (55:49)

you

Dr. Cliff Redford (56:09)

who have finished it and they cried at the same parts and laughed at the same parts. So that's good. So yeah, the plan is, my, I've been flirting with a publisher in the UK for a while. Most of the ones all around here have declined to get involved, which I think is, they're gonna regret. I think if I can find a publisher, I think it's gonna, it's gonna be well received, but I've been flirting with this publisher, chit chatting with her and,

She was ready to receive the proposal and I made some comments. This was months ago that I wasn't a hundred percent finished. And she basically said, I will not look at a proposal. I don't care who you are. I've been, I've been screwed too many times where I really like a book. then six months later, the person is not finished. So they told her I was done. She was very excited. And she basically said, now reach out to a bunch of your friends.

Vicky McGrath (56:57)

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (57:03)

People that you know well enough that will read it, but not so well that they won't be honest with you. You want them to be honest with you. And then I told her mid February, I'll have the next version out to her and we'll see how goes from there.

Vicky McGrath (57:19)

Yeah, well, having a publisher is

definitely an advantage for sure if you can get one because they help you with all the distribution, right? And that's the key piece is the distribution.

Dr. Cliff Redford (57:24)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Yeah. And I mean, I have a lot of contacts regarding marketing. So even if it was self-published, I can get on a lot of Canadian shows, but I don't have the time to, to deal with the, the, the minutia that you had to deal with and in getting this, you know, the, art and the, the printing and the, again, the distribution and you know, it's, and even then the, the specifics of marketing.

Vicky McGrath (57:38)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Cliff Redford (57:57)

I just don't have the time for that. yeah, yeah, yeah. So, and I like working with a team. I like working with people. So if I can find somebody who likes the proposal and I enjoy working with that person, then it'll be fun. Yeah, yeah, it's gonna be good.

Vicky McGrath (57:58)

Yeah, it's a time consuming process, that is for sure.

Yeah, great. I'll have the adventures of

Dr. Cliff, the worldwide vet.

Dr. Cliff Redford (58:19)

That's right. Definitely. Perfect. Can people follow you on Instagram or LinkedIn or what's the

Vicky McGrath (58:26)

Instagram,

I am on there at Vicki.mcgraft and they can find me up to my website as well www.vickiemcgraftauthor.com and of course find my book on Amazon.

Dr. Cliff Redford (58:38)

Perfect.

Excellent. And all those links will be in the summary and we'll go from there. I love it. And we'll have you back on when book two happens and you and I can talk in the next week or two about getting some of these at my clinic and starting to raise some funds. Perfect. Thanks for joining me.

Vicky McGrath (58:56)

I love that. Yeah, great. Thank you. All right,

have a great day.