Katias Yee

Katias and I explore the intersection of veterinary medicine and street drugs, focusing on the implications for marginalized communities.

Be sure to follow me on Instagram @drcliffworldwidevet.com
Listener questions, episode suggestions, or if you have a good idea for a guest, email me at dr.redford@vet905.com
Additional information can be found at drcliff.ca

Transcript

Katias (00:08)

That's it. Yes, I came up with you have a series of options for background and I picked one with like a picture and a flower, which is really not my background. I just decided to blur it. So it's a combination of the two. But you can see me.

Dr. Cliff Redford (00:22)

All right,

so it's not my eyes that are going crazy. They're not failing me. Not drunk. How do you know? My background is just my sort of boxing gym here with my Muhammad Ali right beside my movie poster as inspiration. There you go.

Katias (00:26)

No, you're not drunk!

I exactly had my nose.

It looks like you have vents along your ceiling, so are you able to do some drop kicks or you have to be mindful of the ceiling height?

Dr. Cliff Redford (00:54)

I love it that you actually think I can do drop kicks. I had a hip replacement four years ago. There's no way I'm kicking anything. That's why I don't do judo or Muay Thai anymore, but I do love the boxing. you know what, you know, when that gets me in trouble is I bought a while ago, one of those, VR sets, those meta VR sets, where you can play like virtual reality, zombie shooting games and stuff like that.

And you can also do a boxing game. It's like a Rocky Balboa boxing game. And you can fight people on virtual reality. Like if you had the same thing, I could, you and I could log in together and we'd be in different cities and we could Duke it out. And it, kind of picks up on like head movement and this and that. And it gets really intense. And more than once after I've won.

I've shot my arms up in the air in a victory like woo! And I've cracked my hands on the ceiling. So as short as I am, I do sometimes hit the ceiling, but.

Katias (02:04)

So in

other words, yes, you have to be mindful of the ceiling. Okay, yes, Roger that.

Dr. Cliff Redford (02:08)

That's

right. Yeah, I do have to be mindful of the ceiling. All right, you ready to go? You ready to rock and roll?

Katias (02:13)

I am. So, hey, you know, thanks for the invite. Happy to be here at your while your podcast that life the life of the vet isn't just about being a vet. I'm happy to be here.

Dr. Cliff Redford (02:27)

That's right. See, it's also

about boxing on virtual reality and hanging out with buddies.

Katias (02:34)

And you know, I was trying to think, geez, it's been a very long time since we've known each other. And so prior to last summer when I came to your screening for Dr. Cliff Worldwide Vet, I was trying to recall just how long have we known each other? It must be over 10 years.

Dr. Cliff Redford (02:43)

Hmm.

Oh yeah, because, uh, like I remember that time Brandon and I, and you drove to Montreal for the Quebec open where the Montreal open or whatever. well, Brandon is 26 and he stopped judo when he was 17, 18. Um, and this was before that, like this was before he got on the, uh, provincial team. So.

Katias (03:08)

What year was that?

Dr. Cliff Redford (03:28)

It's probably 10 years. Well, let's see a Nicholas was not competing and Nicholas quit when he was about 14. I bet you it was 11 years ago that we would have drove down and we knew each other before then. you know, going to the same, going to the same dojo. So I don't know.

Katias (03:44)

We did, that's right.

And circling back

to the life of a vet, know, outside of being, you know, a vet, really, this is how we met. It wasn't true. Well, it wasn't me dropping off a pet at your clinic. It was us meeting at the dojo and at local tournaments. And so this is I've been doing judo now for 15 years. And yes, I do recall hitching a ride with you and your son. Was that the Nationals, by the way?

Dr. Cliff Redford (04:18)

No, definitely not because I competed and I only competed in the Nationals. Shoot, I only did the West Coast and then I did it. Did I do Nationals twice? I definitely did Nationals twice. Yeah, wasn't there though. It definitely wasn't there.

Uh, a hundred percent, wasn't there. So it would have just been go back open or something like that.

Katias (04:53)

Quebec Open likely? Yeah, okay. Yes. So the two big open tournaments would be the Ontario Open and the Quebec Open. And yes, I do recall taking a ride there with you and your son. And I do. And you just had to really rub it in when I got defeated by a really nice Uchi Mata. And of course, he had to point that out. You know, I can't recall that.

Dr. Cliff Redford (04:56)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I don't remember that at all. I don't remember that at all,

but...

Katias (05:22)

I can't recall the exact date or whether or not for certainty was Quebec open but likely the Quebec open but I do recall being defeated by very anyone's I have to admit it was a clean Uchimata and it was well a clean breakfall on my side.

Dr. Cliff Redford (05:37)

There

you go. would rather, but that's how you, if you're going to lose, you want to lose from a beautiful throw versus just like that was so ugly and I screwed up or the ref screwed up or what have you, you know what I mean? So, or, or to win on, on penalties, which is such a common thing these days. Um, you know, something they need to change when they change those rules, you know, back in the day, as you remember, you used to be able to grab the legs.

You could do, that was my move. would get people tired and then I would double, I would double leg grab it, a double shoot, you know? and then they removed it because they, the wrestlers were going into tournaments and beating us all up. And I think, not us, but in the Olympics. And I think they wanted to, know, IGF wanted to sort of separate judo from other grappling sports. And yeah. And, and so while the.

Katias (06:25)

Wrestling, predominantly.

Dr. Cliff Redford (06:32)

big throws and the wins by a paw by perfect throws for those who are listening and don't understand judo by the wind, you know, the winds of the bite by these big, big throws did increase as a percentage. So did the winds by penalties, you know, where, where no one could throw each other and you just won by penalties. Cause the other guy person was too defensive or whatever.

and that's still, there was a study out of the, know, with the latest Olympics, there was a study or some sort of statement saying that X number of percentage were, were going to score lists over time and things like that. And, while there were some spectacular Uchi Matas that would have taken either one of us out, there are also some

Katias (07:22)

Yeah, speaking of which too,

the one and only female gold medalist, Dekuchi, in the last Olympics, 2024, I mean, this is how she won gold, right? It was through, they went overtime.

Dr. Cliff Redford (07:35)

It's, how she

won almost all of her matches. Like, and, look, you got to win, you got to win. And, and, and everyone at that level is so good. that, know, that ends up being sort of a battle of, of defense instead of offense. But for the people who don't understand judo, it, it's incredibly boring to watch and, know, the Olympics, their, their ultimate job isn't necessarily to make these sports.

Exciting, but there is an entertainment value to it. and that's why they bring out things like break dancing and, rock climbing. don't know. it ping pong. yeah, it's so, so it gets frustrating, but, I mean, like Jessica, Klemke did not win many matches as a scoreless, overtime win. Like she either won by drop soy or.

Katias (08:14)

Big bong!

Dr. Cliff Redford (08:34)

her, can't remember the name of her hold down. it sounds like the Greek fried cheese Saganaki. What is it? I can't remember the name of her hold down, but like she would, she would win handedly or she would lose, you know, and I'm making generalized statements, but, I do find, Jessica much more, exciting, judoka to watch that, to Gucci is.

Katias (09:03)

A quick question for you and to just kind of segue into some of the stuff that I asked you before this actual podcast and want to satisfy my own personal curiosity and just my general interest in public health, assuming that we have a mutual interest in public health. But first, before we transition, I'm curious to know like why, so you mentioned something about getting knee surgery. So was this the main reason why you

Transitioned out of the sport, do you know what that is?

Dr. Cliff Redford (09:37)

Yeah, it was actually hip replacement. while I have had knee surgery like your brother and have you ever had your cruciate torn?

Katias (09:46)

I know I don't think my brother had knee surgery. don't think no, no. I yes, I've had my ACL reconstructed. Yes

Dr. Cliff Redford (09:48)

Nose.

I think he did because he's,

went to this, I'm pretty sure I went to the same surgeon he went to, but regardless.

Katias (09:55)

No, we don't need to mention who,

but we're talking about the same doctor. Yes, we had an exchange via messenger.

Dr. Cliff Redford (10:01)

okay. So

gotcha. So, I have had my, my knee cruciate repaired. that was also a judo, a judo injury. was the Edmonton open. the funny thing about that one was I was a, I think I was either a green belt. was no, I was a brown belt and I was the senior belt in the group of five of us.

in this tournament in our division and whatever, we're all standing around getting ready and we're kind of introducing ourselves to each other. And I made a comment about, Hey, let's everyone just go out and have fun. And we all have to work the next day. So let's, let's hope we don't hurt each other. And then I went up against this green belt who had a really ugly, Oso to Gary. And he, sort of swept my leg, but from the side and snapped my, my cruise ship pretty quickly, but.

So I did, you know, I did judo, did judo, did the nationals. Yeah.

Katias (11:04)

know, Cliff, quick interruption

here. So I do recall you having your anterior cruciate repaired. And I also do recall you coming back because you had a limb and you were refereeing at the time.

Dr. Cliff Redford (11:18)

Yeah, so I did refereeing and I came back and I came back solid. Like my repaired knee is stronger than my other knee. But I did, I then I came back, I got my black belt. Congratulations on your second degree, by the way. So I got my black belt, I competed. Then I went to Jamaica, you know, did the filming. And when I came back, I quickly found myself divorced. And so I got out of judo.

Katias (11:27)

Yeah, that's often the case.

Thank you.

Dr. Cliff Redford (11:49)

just temporarily, honestly, because I wanted a change. I had met my ex, Kathy, on the judo mat during high school. So I didn't want to do judo for a while. I was sensitive. So I did Muay Thai and I really wanted to do striking sports. So I got into Muay Thai and then there was one point, and at the same time I was also doing ultra marathons. was...

Katias (12:03)

I understand.

Dr. Cliff Redford (12:15)

I was running like 50 mile trail races, you know, like 10, 10 hours at a time kind of thing, a 10 hour long race. And I had this tweak. had this minor injury to my, to my left groin muscle, like my hip flexor. And it did something that it, it was something that had been bothering me on and off for six or seven years, all through judo, all through marathons. And so I took some time off.

Still did the run, still did the 50 mile and then decided, okay, now I'm going to, I'm going to treat this properly. And I'll go and I'll ask my doctor for an MRI just to confirm the tear. he said, well, before you do an MRI, they're going to want you to do an X-ray. So I X-rayed my hips. And when the tech radio, when the X-ray technologist took my X-rays, I had, knew I was a veterinarian. So he was like, Hey, why don't you look at the X-rays with me? And he pulls it up.

Katias (12:56)

Yeah. Okay.

Dr. Cliff Redford (13:12)

And right away he just looks at me, gives me this, this sad, like this sort of shocked look because I can see that I have brutal hips. I basically got hip dysplasia. and unbeknownst to me, both sides. Yeah. Though the left is a lot worse than the doctor feels it's because I'm right-handed. I fight right-handed as a judoka. So therefore I was often landing on my left hip. because as you know, we take a lot of break falls.

Katias (13:24)

right and left.

Dr. Cliff Redford (13:42)

And so basically they said, need, you need hip replacement. I fought it for a while. Like I got cortisone cortisone shots and the whole bit. then finally I was just like, this is ridiculous. regardless, I'm never doing judo again. because I can't take the, I can't take the falls. and, I had already started boxing and I went and got a hip replacement and I wish I had done it sooner. Like my, my, need my.

Katias (13:47)

Both for the end.

Okay, so hang on. So you say you had

A as in one hit replacement or you had both of them replaced?

Dr. Cliff Redford (14:16)

I just had the left though, the morning of surgery, the surgeon says, you know, we really should have, we really should do both. Like you, you, you're going to need it very soon. I was like, all right, I'm already here. And he's like, no, doesn't work that way. Like I would have to cancel and da da da. So he did say in two to three years, you're going to need your right hip replaced. It has now been this summer.

It's been three and a half years and I suspect this summer I'm going to get my right hip done because it's starting to show.

Katias (14:50)

So when you say replacement, was

it complete so that they repaired the acetabulum in the femoral head? Okay, that's the big deal.

Dr. Cliff Redford (14:57)

100 % yeah, yeah total total

hip replacement. Yeah, it's a big deal. But like my my mobility is great My back pain is gone My running has never gotten back to what it was but partially because I'm not really training that way anymore But I'm able to surf my surfing is a lot better my pop-ups on the surfboard are so much better because I can lift my leg properly now, so

Yeah, it's something, I'm glad I did the first leg. It was needed. And when I get the second one done, then I'm done. Then no more hips. Then I'll focus on keeping my knees healthy, but.

Katias (15:38)

And so

the other strike in sport boxing, so this is not having any negative impact on your hips.

Dr. Cliff Redford (15:46)

No, not

at all. mean, I mean, occasionally I'm, bouncing around and I feel, I feel something on my right side now. and that's I'm starting to realize that it's going to be time soon to have my right side repaired because I'm to a much lower degree. I'm feeling some of the instability or the comp, the compensation, issues, with my right hip flexor, my right groin, my pure form is on the right side.

Katias (16:17)

Huh, let's see if I can recall my anatomy. So you say, periformis for listeners who don't know anything about human anatomy. I these are your gluteal muscles from what I do recall. And literally, I'm just, it's just off the top of my head. are seven of them. Periformis is often used as a landmark as a gluteal muscle, because this is where you're there are there's innervation in that area. it's, it's a, it's a, it's a common muscle.

Dr. Cliff Redford (16:41)

Mm-hmm.

Katias (16:45)

the pariformis and it often causes a pinch in the sciatic nerve. this is a common problem. So you don't have to be into combat sports to experience that. It's becoming.

Dr. Cliff Redford (16:53)

Yeah.

prob-

To have that issue.

Yeah. Yeah. Especially if you got like that lazy glute syndrome, you know, you're not firing your gluteal muscles properly. And then there's a nerve that goes right through the piriformis, I think. So if the piriformis starts overcompensating for the rest of your lazy butt muscles, then it, pinches. That's sort of how they explained it to me. And, the reality was for, I kid you not probably 10 years prior to my hip surgery, I was occasionally dealing with.

intense piriformis pain, where I tried laser, tried acupuncture, I tried all kinds of things. There was a period where I was on muscle relaxants and pain meds, like just over the counter stuff for about six months because my piriformis was hurting me and it was all related to my bad hip. That was something that had started when I was young. Like they said I had acetabular impingement, so a tightening of the acetabulum.

Katias (17:50)

Yeah, so I.

And for the listener, is the socket part of your hip, not the ball part.

Dr. Cliff Redford (17:59)

or a narrow.

Yeah.

Yeah. So the ball and socket joint, the socket was too tight. Um, essentially it was pinched. And so I was going to need a hip replacement sooner or later in my life. Anyways, it's just judo sped up the, uh, sped up the degeneration. So, um, but I. It is well, I was about to say, like, I would rather have the surgery. was 48, 47, 48, something like that.

Katias (18:20)

Maybe that's the silver lining to all of this.

Dr. Cliff Redford (18:31)

when I had the surgery and I wouldn't say I was in the prime of my life, but I was in really good shape. you know, I could still do my one-legged squats sort of, and you know, so it made, it made for recovery. That's right. It made for recovery very, very quick. Like I went home the same day. a single crutch, like I was working within two and a half weeks.

Katias (18:44)

That's amazing. Most people can't do that.

Dr. Cliff Redford (19:00)

you know, and standing doing surgery and so.

Katias (19:00)

That's a gift.

And if I may sort of segue into something that I would like to talk about and just point out that, and I have no doubt that you don't take this for granted, that you are in a position where recovery, you can have a healthy and expedient recovery. mean, you have a home, you have a roof over your head, you're likely supported by family.

Dr. Cliff Redford (19:26)

Mm-hmm.

Katias (19:29)

I know that you're tight with your daughter and your two sons. And so there are people who don't have that, believe it or not, and it's becoming more more common. And so when it comes to the social determinants of health, I mean, there are no real glaring barriers on your side so that you are a good candidate for surgery. And it's not really a big deal if you get day surgery and they kick you out the same day because you have a place to go.

In addition to that, you have access to aftercare. It's let it be prescribed medication. You have the medical literacy. You're able to ask the right questions, certainly. And so these are all things that often people don't have, especially marginalized groups, don't have access to.

Dr. Cliff Redford (20:21)

Mm-hmm.

Katias (20:24)

When we touched base last summer and when I came to your screening to watch your bio, Dr. Cliff Worldwide Vet, and when you told me that you had this podcast, I thought to myself, geez, this would be a great opportunity to talk about street drugs and get a veterinarian's perspective on some of the vet drugs that end up on the streets.

Dr. Cliff Redford (20:42)

Mm-hmm.

Katias (20:50)

And so although this is not an interview format, we made this clear. This is a casual conversation on a Sunday afternoon. I am very curious about some drugs that you would be very familiar with because you are a vet. And I'd be curious to know three in particular. Pardon me if I'm not pronouncing it right, but I'll try my very best. One would be meditomedine.

Dr. Cliff Redford (20:56)

Yeah, yeah.

Katias (21:19)

xylosine and carfentanil. And how do I know about these drugs? Well, frankly, I know nothing about these drugs. And this is why I have questions for you, because certainly you'll have something to say about it. I know about them because I know of and the reason why I know about these things is because I've been working with marginalized groups now for a number of years. And so what does that mean to listener or the lay person? These are people who are either experiencing homelessness or struggling with

some kind of substance use and abuse and often marginalized groups, especially those who are precariously housed or under house or homeless, don't have access to healthcare, for example, the way that you did. And so I am aware of some places where people who identify as drug users, where there are places where they can go and consume with their own.

pre-obtained drugs where there are sites where they can use safely and legally and be monitored by a healthcare practitioner. In addition to these places, they offer services where they do drug checking. And what is that drug checking? Is that the user, the drug user will hand over a used drug paraphernalia with drug residues, for example, to have it tested.

And so a service called, for example, if you want to look this up, it is public Toronto Drug Check-in Service. And so every so often they publish their results. And so I printed out the last report. This was a sample size of 163 individuals who submitted their drugs to be checked. And this was conducted between January the 11th to 24th of this year.

And so this is how I know about meditomidine and xylosine and carfentanil because they were reported in this through the service. So one question for you, Cliff. Now, when it comes to meditomidine and xylosine, carfentanil, like what species or animal would you use this on and why?

Dr. Cliff Redford (23:35)

Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. And, and so metatomidine, which I call dex dom, is the brand name dex domator, but metatomidine is both a sedative and a painkiller. it came onto the scene maybe about a decade ago and. Yeah, it came onto the vet scene, as, as the drugs, the drug dex domator.

Katias (23:56)

When you say, you in like the vet scene.

Ha ha ha ha!

Dr. Cliff Redford (24:04)

and it is, I believe I should know this. I just know how to use it, how to prescribe it or utilize it in my patients. It is a alpha two antagonist, I believe. So it basically has some narcotic like properties for pain, but it's also a very powerful muscle relaxant and sedative. And the beauty about metatomidine is it comes with a reversing agent as well called antecedent.

coming to like kind of like anti sedate anti seeding. And so we can have a big tough dog come in. Probably the most common time I use it is when they come in and I think they've torn their cruciate ligament. So let's do a full circle back to that. Very, very common by far the number one injury in dogs is there a tear of their knee ligament. And for me to do a proper orthopedic exam when they're in pain,

And then also to get them to lie in kind of a yoga position for me to do the x-rays, I need to sedate them. And so this is a drug I can quickly give a little poke in the butt. They get sleepy within 10 minutes. I do my thing. I give them another injection with the reversal. They're awake five minutes later and they're out the door. So they can, they can have all this stuff done in let's say 40 minutes. Metatoma D now is starting to be used as a.

pre drug for anesthesia, as well as just, you know, not just a sedative. And my father had a, I guess you'd call it a pentuple bypass. He had a five way bypass surgery, heart surgery, probably 10 years ago as well. And he had a reaction to the anesthetic.

and they had to maintain them on a drug-induced coma for a couple of days and they had them on a metatomidine drip. So it is used in people, obviously. So that's how metatomidine is used. It can be used in cats and it's used in crazy cats. It's part of the what we call a kitty magic combo, which is TDK, torbjizic, which is butorfenol, dexdom or metatomidine, and then ketamine.

Zylazine

in fact, I probably have more experience than most people with xylazine. because it's, it's used on all the places that I go and travel. my first trip to Jamaica eight years ago, they couldn't get metatomidine. They can't get narcotics there like hydromorphine or Torbjicic or whatever. And they said, no, we use xylazine, which kind of freaked me out because

In 1996, I graduated in 98, I wrote a paper on why we no longer use xylazine in cats and dogs, basically is dangerous. And this was this was all they have, right? So xylazine is also a sedative. It kind of has pain, pain control properties, but is primarily a sedative. They will use it for large animals, though. It's very common in in horses. And we use it in wildlife.

So we'll hit crazy raccoons or I did a surgery on a crocodile once and we gave them some xylazine to calm them down. So that's how xylazine is used. And then the last one, the carfentanil or fentanyl is a pain medication, a very powerful pain medication. The problem with fentanyl and it, it's kind of lost a favor in our industry. We don't really use it that much anymore because we have better things.

such as meditomidine. But fentanyl, the big thing that we used fentanyl for in the past was not only orthopedic surgeries, like hip replacements in dogs, and you'd put them on a fentanyl drip. But we would do fentanyl patches. So these patches you put on cats as a transdermal patch when you were declawing them. It could be used for other things, but declawing was a common thing. I don't do declawing. I haven't done it in 15 years.

most vets don't do declawing anymore. But the worry with fentanyl, these fentanyl patches is people, the worry was abuse, was what if, you know, the people would pull it off their cat, it was very easy to pull it off their cat and stick it on themselves. Or they're even report people eating it.

Katias (29:02)

Yeah. Quick question.

Yeah. And that's, I'm glad that you using dogs and cats as, you know, as an example, because these are likely the most common household pets is cat and dog. And so in, in, in, in my question, and you've already started doing that, just to add a little bit more perspective, for example, using the average human weight, like for example, I'm 57 kilogram and you know, let's not use kilograms because most people are common with pounds. What

Dr. Cliff Redford (29:17)

Mm-hmm.

Katias (29:35)

The average dog, from my understanding, weighs about 60 pounds. I'm not quite sure what the average weight is for a cat. I'm assuming that you use the weight of the animal to measure how much you're going to dose. And also, if you could shed some light on how these animals metabolize these drugs, for example, and why this would not be good for humans.

Dr. Cliff Redford (29:59)

Yeah, so and I would certainly say the average dog is probably much smaller than 60 pounds. People would consider that a large breed, but like a Labrador would be 60, 70, 80 pounds. But the thing is, is a dog's metabolism and I'm going to simplify it. A dog's metabolism and a cat's metabolism is so much different and faster than ours that for many drugs, like I can prescribe things to shoppers drug mart.

I can write a prescription for your dog and you can go pick it up at Shoppers Drug Mart if it's available. And a 60 pound dog generally takes what a 180 pound person would take. So it's at least three times. And in cats, it's probably even higher in the sense of the average cat is 10, 12 pounds, healthy cat, and they would probably be receiving drugs that a 80 or 90 pound person would be taking. So.

Katias (30:40)

That's good perspective.

Dr. Cliff Redford (30:58)

It's that they metabolize it faster. and they just, they just have different physiology that the drugs don't work as well. And the thing is, is we're using a lot of these drugs for achieving an anesthetic plane. We're trying to knock this animal out so it does not feel any pain whatsoever while we're doing our surgery. whereas if you take, you know, a smaller dosage or if you abuse.

If I send your pet home with some of these drugs and then unfortunately it gets in the hand of somebody who's who's has drug abuse issues or has some, some challenges in their life. they're not looking to give themselves an anesthetic plane. so it doesn't take, take the same amount. and you know, there are ways of speeding up absorption and there, you know, this was the problem with Oxycontin years ago that people could crush it and snort it and take it in quickly. Right. so.

There are ways of speeding up absorption, ways of sort of adjusting the way your body handles it. I'm sure people who are utilizing these drugs are on other drugs. So there's what we would call balanced anesthesia, which is a good thing, but not in this situation.

Katias (32:11)

Yes, absolutely.

controlled environment from

a licensed practitioner, you know exactly what you are given the animal and assuming that most of the time the mode of administration would be through injection.

Dr. Cliff Redford (32:34)

Yeah, yeah, most of time.

Katias (32:36)

So since we're reaching the 30 minute mark, I do want to ask you one last question and then I guess we can just free roll. Have you ever found yourself educating pet owners about the consequences of consuming their pet dog or pet cat prescribed medication?

Dr. Cliff Redford (32:54)

I've had some that are humorous. once had, we used to prescribe a drug called aphedrine, which everyone knows of Sudafed, which is a stimulant. It's pseudo aphedrine, almost aphedrine. We used to actually get a, we would do by prescription, a drug called aphedrine for dogs, primarily female dogs that had urinary incontinence.

and so the aphedrine would, would strengthen the, skeletal and smooth muscles of the bladder sphincter. And I had this one. there was this, it was this older black lab, about 80 pounds, right? named Duchess and Duchess's mom. And it was a single, you know, single mom, single family. she had to be 80 years old. So little sweet little old lady. And she called me up one day and said,

Dr. Redford, accidentally took Dutch's medication. It looks like my medication. was like, okay, which one? I'm thinking, please let it be the flea medication. Please let it be the flea medication. And she's like, I took the little white pee pills, as she called it. And I was like, the ephedrine. She's like, yeah. And like, okay, how many did you take? She's like, just a couple. And then I realized it didn't taste the same as my heart medication. I was like, this is, you know, this is bad.

you should call your doctor because this is gonna cause heart palpitations and an increased heart rate. And I quickly checked, we legally have to have a drug compendium that shows the effects of drugs on people. The same thing as what a human pharmacist would have, just in case something like this happens. And the short of the long story is, I asked her to call her doctor, I begged her, she refused. And I said, okay, just...

just take it easy today, you know, and call me if there's a problem. Well, she didn't, she didn't take it easy. I called her the next day and I said, Hey, how are you feeling? She was like, my goodness. I, mean, I feel great. And yesterday I had so much energy. I cleaned my entire house, Dr. Redford. It normally takes me all week. So she was basically bouncing off the walls in this mega stimulant. and she ended up, she ended up being okay.

but, you know, so I've had situations like that. We actually prescribe the chemical name is, sedentifil. Do you know what sedentifil is? Sedentifil is Viagra. We prescribe sedentifil for animals with, pulmonary hypertension. So elevated blood pressure in the lungs. It is a very rare complication of very rare forms of heart disease.

Katias (35:22)

What is that?

Dr. Cliff Redford (35:41)

And Viagra was originally designed as a blood pressure medication. It didn't pass the studies, but they found this other side effect, which made them way more money than, than, than heart medication ever would. And commonly I will get owners calling me up, laughing, saying, can I get another prescription? My dog is, as like, are you kidding? They're like, yeah, we're just, we're, just having fun. We're, we're thinking if we got another prescription, we could have a little party.

But it's like, don't do that. But so that's really the only time I've had to deal with that. We have had though a common drug that we prescribe is a synthetic narcotic called tramadol. And tramadol is pretty hard to abuse in the fatal sense, but it can still be abused and it can still be desirable to people that have drug addiction issues and can't get their hands on

common sort of opiates and we will prescribe tramadol for pain all the time. And we've had situations where clients have come to us not knowing I used to own three clinics and they would come to one clinic, get the tramadol and then bring the same dog to another clinic to get the same drug. And we quickly realized and we would call around and even pharmacists would have Mrs. Smith on

on the list that here is a woman that is abusing tramadol and trying to get it for herself. So we've had situations like that, but we don't generally say, hey, this drug is just for fluffy. Don't take it yourself. Because I would be worried that I'd be giving them an idea, right? But you

Katias (37:28)

So sometimes maybe educating

them, you're actually enabling them. So I guess you have to pick and choose when you educate and don't educate your clients.

Dr. Cliff Redford (37:34)

That's right.

Yeah, yeah, that's right. mean, the reality is the vast majority of the stuff that we prescribe, if it's of value to people, we're not dispensing it. Like we're administering it in the hospital. I don't send people with morphine pills home. There are other better drugs that don't really have the same dangers of misuse.

Katias (38:08)

So Cliff, I gotta say this has been fun. This is a great way to make use of my Sunday afternoon. I really hope there's gonna be maybe a part two to this if you're open to the idea.

Dr. Cliff Redford (38:20)

Yeah, we'll keep talking. mean, especially with the fentanyl czar being created. Is it really an issue, fentanyl coming from Canada going into the US? Like, I find that hard to believe.

Katias (38:26)

Yeah

You know, I am

this is was one of the conditions that we spoke about before the podcast I cliff that I right now because fentanyl is such a politically charged topic I would prefer to not comment too much about that and just really I just wanted to have a casual conversation I get a vet's perspective on street drugs and how know vet drugs are ended or they're ending up on our streets This is what's happening and just keep you know our

Dr. Cliff Redford (38:50)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Is juice

Katias (39:00)

political stripes away from this topic and to just try and be objective about what's happening on the streets.

Dr. Cliff Redford (39:09)

Do you think like, yes, there are drugs that are street drugs and are also veterinarian drugs. Surely, do you think that it's coming from veterinary hospitals or somehow coming from the industry? There's gotta be other ways.

Katias (39:23)

I was gonna,

well, you know, I don't really know how, like what are the policies in terms of how you guys safeguard these drugs. I don't know what the actual protocol is. I don't know how readily accessible this is. If you don't have a pet, like how readily would this be accessible to the ordinary person? How would ordinary people gain access to these kinds of drugs?

I I have some theories. One simple one would be break-ins and robberies.

Dr. Cliff Redford (39:57)

Yeah, I can't imagine. So as far as us having controlled drugs, it's very, it's not difficult for us to purchase those drugs from our purchasing groups, but like we have to jump through hoops, which is very appropriate. There's like a three, a three coded system. We have to make the order and then there has to be, they, they text us a code and then they email us a code.

And then once we receive the order, we have to formally acknowledge that we received the drug. On top of that, once we store it, it has to be stored in a locked off area in something that cannot be picked up and walked out of the clinic. The keys have to be limited to the number of people or the people that know the access to it.

Then we have to, every single day, we have to document the starting point, the usage, and the end point. So we have to log the usage of these drugs. And those things get assessed. So it is the one thing that our licensing body can come in, audit, yeah, yeah. So it's the one thing that the licensing organization can come in and audit.

Katias (41:15)

Assess or you mean like by audits? Audits.

Dr. Cliff Redford (41:23)

without there being like a scheduled appointment. They'll audit our clinic every five years for standards of practice and things of that nature. But at any time, the inspectors can come and they do it often enough, especially because there are some people that have gotten in trouble. Or if the veterinarian themselves has a history of drug addiction, I would have to claim that.

Katias (41:32)

you.

Dr. Cliff Redford (41:53)

If I was ever arrested for drug use, for possession, et cetera, et I could still be a veterinarian, but they would rightfully so be very careful on my usage. So it would be really hard to get enough drugs from a vet clinic. And I don't know of any vet clinics who have been broken into, which means maybe one out of a hundred.

Every five years are broken into you're not gonna get enough drugs. So they must be being made since like being made somewhere else. mean Or they're somehow being stolen from the original point of Production, know the pharmaceutical company. don't know I watched Breaking Bad. Maybe you know, maybe there's a mister maybe there's a mr. White Doing that they got to do that as a vet version something like that

Katias (42:43)

great show I love that show

Dr. Cliff Redford (42:51)

But I mean, the big problem we used to have, and it's less and less problematic now, but I know of veterinarians who were arrested for selling anabolic steroids. Because in the horse racing world, anabolic steroids are not illegal. You just can't have the horse on them when they race. so yeah, I know veterinarians that their license suspended and were

Katias (43:06)

right?

Dr. Cliff Redford (43:20)

tossed in jail for a little bit of time for selling anabolic steroids.

Katias (43:23)

Yeah. So going back to my

theory, even if, you know, a group of gangsters opted to rob a vet clinic, mean, the likelihood of, you know, getting enough drug or even having access, it sounds like it's like Fort Knox, the way you guys actually safeguard drugs in a clinic, that it still wouldn't be easily accessible. So in other words, it would have to be an inside job to get enough where someone would actually have to be producing it.

Dr. Cliff Redford (43:42)

Yeah, I mean...

They could, they could, they.

Yeah.

Yeah. And multiple people would have to be involved with the process because if you're, if you're one of my technicians and I tell you to dispense, you know, a, a controlled drug or utilize one of these controlled drugs on one of our surgical patients, you have to, two people have to sign off on it. So good luck getting two people in the vent industry to cooperate on anything. we are notorious for being stubborn.

and difficult to work with. That's why we work with animals and not people. So they will rat out their buddy as fast as they can. So that's not going to work. So yeah, it's not, we are not, you know, they would have to go to an emergency hospital and good luck. They're open 24 seven, like a regular clinic like mine. We probably have $500 worth of street drugs. I mean, that's not, that's not worth it. That's not, that's not worth it. So.

Katias (44:29)

You

So heads up to the listener.

Don't make yourself a target.

Dr. Cliff Redford (44:51)

That's right, that's right. Yeah, yeah, well,

yeah. There's plenty of ones around me that are busier than I am, so I'm still a pretty small clinic. Yeah, that was fun though.

Katias (45:03)

So maybe we

can, next time around, maybe we can push the limits and maybe talk about how this could be and is actually a politically charged topic right now as we speak. And we can maybe discuss some of the criminal element of it, which I was actually hoping to completely keep out of this conversation, because it's so easy to get intrigued with the...

criminal element of street drugs and the black market. Really, I just wanted to get a vet's perspective on what's happening on the streets and how a lot of street drugs and vet drugs are being mixed within. So thank you for your perspective. And I certainly hope to have maybe a part two to this. I'll leave it up to you.

Dr. Cliff Redford (45:48)

Yeah.

A hundred percent. Yeah, we definitely will. And I don't really hold any sort of political leaning. I'm, I am an open book. I just like to learn. So I do vote, but I, I, I'm like a poly voter. I vote all over the place over the last 40 years, 30 years. You know, so yeah, I think it would be really, really useful. And I think the listeners would really enjoy hearing your perspective because you're right there on the.

on the front lines helping people out that are dealing with their problems. So thank you very much for joining me.

Katias (46:24)

Thank you so much, Cliff.