The future Dr. Joanna

Vet school is really hard. Made harder when your beloved family pet becomes critically sick.

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Listener questions, episode suggestions, or if you have a good idea for a guest, email me at dr.redford@vet905.com
Additional information can be found at drcliff.ca

Transcript

Dr. Cliff Redford (00:08)

how are you?

Joanna (00:10)

I'm okay, I'm okay, pretty good. mean, yeah, yeah, it's been stressful.

Dr. Cliff Redford (00:12)

You've had some stressful times. Let's get

right into it. How's little Missy?

Joanna (00:20)

She's okay. She's okay. She's good. I mean, she's getting back to herself, getting stronger and stronger every day. She was discharged on Tuesday night, so it's almost a little less than a week. Two days after she was, when was it? Two days after she was discharged, she had two, no, two seizures one day, and then the next night she had another one. This poor girl, she's epileptic.

Dr. Cliff Redford (00:27)

Yeah.

Right, and she's epileptic, but she hasn't

had a seizure in a while prior to this.

Joanna (00:50)

Well,

it's... her last one was a month ago, so we were due. It's still not... Like, they're not meant... They're not... She's on a ton of medication. It's not... They're not gone. I don't know if that's...

Dr. Cliff Redford (01:04)

Yeah, she's on all like she's on all three. She's on Keppra, phenobarb and potassium bromide. She's on, she's on all of them. But I mean, for those out there, know, dogs can get epilepsy, they can get seizures for other reasons, primarily like brain damage, brain lesions, tumor, strokes, that sort of thing. But especially if they're middle-aged or younger, it's primarily just epilepsy.

Joanna (01:06)

everything. Yep.

Yeah.

all of them.

Dr. Cliff Redford (01:30)

And while it would be nice for a patient to be seizure free on medication, our real goal is to reduce the frequency and severity. she, prior to this, she's having seizures once a month, but how bad are they? Like describe them.

Joanna (01:36)

Mm-hmm.

It's not

okay. Well, you know, there's not even I wouldn't even say once a month. It's like really irregular at this point. And I just want to say I remember when she first had her first seizure in 20 was it 2023, I think so.

No, 2022. I'm so mixed up. It was my first year. So it was 2022. And you said, well, it's likely idiopathic because she doesn't have any other clinical science, right? She doesn't have any other symptoms, right? and we sort of were working with that and, you know, we all, everyone here thought pretty much the same. They didn't recommend an MRI. And then after her, when she was hospitalized last week, we did get the MRI.

Dr. Cliff Redford (02:18)

Mm-hmm.

Joanna (02:33)

because there was a moment where we thought maybe it was traumatic brain injury. Maybe she bumped into a tree or something and whatever. Because she runs off into the woods. Anyhow, but now we've confirmed it's idiopathic. Just a side note, there's nothing wrong with her brain. Her brain is fine. it took like, I know.

Dr. Cliff Redford (02:40)

Mm-hmm.

As far as your epilepsy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, not to, I'm to be

pragmatic here. I'm not trying to be, without emotion, but the reality is if she had a brain lesion three years ago, causing the seizures, it would have progressed and she'd be with us no more. it would have progressed pretty quickly. you know, so sometimes putting them on medication and seeing how they, how they do is,

Joanna (03:02)

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Dr. Cliff Redford (03:17)

a diagnostic test. Not the most gold standard of diagnostic tests, but but sometimes that's what you got to do, right? Yeah, it's a tough one. So she Yeah, like you're you're out in the rural area. She went out she she went out for a jaunt in the forest and came back, came back feeling crummy.

Joanna (03:25)

Yeah.

So, yeah.

She went out for her exactly.

Yeah, exactly. And she does it all the time. I let her go because she's a border collie and I let her go on her little adventures, I call them, and she always comes back and she's really happy. And she's just and she came back and she was really she was just very off, very dull. She seemed like it just seemed like she I don't know, something strange. She looked very off and then she started vomiting immediately. So who knows if she vomited up there while she was on her adventure. And it sort of continued for

Dr. Cliff Redford (03:48)

Hmm.

Joanna (04:08)

the next four hours and then progressed and then she started vomiting blood four hours later. Prior to that, it was just sort of bile mucus and her teeth were stained yellow and we don't know. After all that, we still don't know what it was. anyway, are working on muzzle training now so that she can still adventure at some point when she's better, but not get into things.

Dr. Cliff Redford (04:13)

use this.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Because I mean, it certainly sounds like, and the working diagnosis is that she ingested something toxic. and unfortunately dogs don't learn because they don't have an understanding of, three hours ago I ate that mushroom and now I started vomiting, or whatever it was that she ate. Right. and, you know, I think that's a, I think that's a, a fair diagnosis because they ruled everything else out. I mean,

Joanna (04:43)

Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah, have a little theory, but no, I don't know. The one thing we haven't ruled out is the MDR1 mutation that's really specific to border collies where they don't have that the glycoprotein and the brain barrier, no. Well, it's...

Dr. Cliff Redford (05:17)

Yes, yes.

You know about it more than I do. 20,

28 years ago when I was learning this thing. yeah, border collies and those herding breeds have that mutation that can be, make them sensitive to ivermectin. Right?

Joanna (05:31)

border collies. Exactly.

Exactly. And other drugs as well. Other drugs.

Well, ivermectin is just the one that you sort of avoid. But I don't know. I want to get her tested for it. You know, she has due back for another round of blood, bloods, as they call it here. And I'm going to see if we can do genetic testing for it, just just to rule it out, because I like it just so strange to me. mean, I don't know how these things work, but, you know, it's possible that this toxin was moving through her system because she crashed the second night.

Dr. Cliff Redford (05:44)

Yeah, yeah.

Joanna (06:08)

She lost the second night she was in, she crashed. didn't go into shock, but she lost her cranial nerve reflexes, like no PLR, no menace. She then aspirated because she couldn't swallow. She lost that.

Dr. Cliff Redford (06:16)

Hmm.

Joanna (06:25)

know, esophageal reflex. And she ended up getting a little pneumonia. And she was almost, she was like completely uptended. You know, she was non-ambulatory. I'm using my best terminology for you and I hope you appreciate it. I'm really trying. she...

Dr. Cliff Redford (06:38)

Perfect.

It's

actually easier to into layman's terms because the va-

Joanna (06:45)

Okay, so she couldn't, she

couldn't, yeah, she couldn't, she couldn't, basically she lost all reflexes. Like suddenly, and this was the middle of the night, so I only heard the next day because, well, maybe luckily for me, I thought my phone was on, but it wasn't and I missed a lot of calls. So, which wouldn't have probably changed anything ultimately, but I got all these calls the next morning. She basically, she was like comatose. I went in to see her. She wouldn't, she didn't open her eyes. She was lying there.

you know, she was, you know, intubated so that to support her airways and make sure she didn't aspirate again. And they had at that point, I think, taking her off. She was on. man, not I don't know, some bends, which I can't remember which pencil it was. It was met. Yeah, yeah, it was. But it wasn't it was mox. No, I can't remember now. Anyhow, but I just am so confused as to why.

Dr. Cliff Redford (07:31)

like a benzodiazepine.

Joanna (07:43)

two nights later, but it's possible that the toxin hit her in some way that second night and that's when it, right? What is? Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (07:51)

Yeah, mean, damage and its effects can be delayed.

We humans as well as dogs as well as cats, there's this joke out there that we have evolved and adapted so that if we get hit by a car or some sort of major trauma, our sympathetic nervous system kicks into the point. So our adrenaline system kicks into the point where we can survive long enough for the ambulance to come to us.

Joanna (08:19)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Dr. Cliff Redford (08:26)

Obviously there are no ambulances a hundred years, a hundred thousand years ago when we had had sort of developed this adaptation, but basically it means, you know, you can, you can lose, let's say a lot of blood and she did lose a lot of blood from vomiting blood, but let's just use that as an example. You can lose a lot of blood from some sort of trauma and your spleen contracts to kind of give you an auto transfusion. Your heart rate picks up your blood vessels.

Joanna (08:49)

True.

Dr. Cliff Redford (08:55)

contract to maintain blood pressure and your body shuts down blood flow to the unimportant parts of the body and shunts it all to the abdominal organs, especially the liver and the kidneys and the brain and the heart, you know, and the lungs and that's pretty much about it. And so you go into this sort of shock state and then you get to the hospital and you get on all these drugs and these drugs are great, but they, they

Joanna (09:08)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (09:23)

They keep you alive while your adrenal system starting to shut down and tire out. And so you can have a second wave of, of symptoms, or damage or, or whatnot. And, and I mean, we don't know what the toxin is. If it is a toxin, let's say it is a toxin. some of these things have, have delayed effects. take time to be absorbed.

Joanna (09:25)

Right.

Hmm.

Dr. Cliff Redford (09:48)

or they get absorbed into the fat and then released slowly over a period of time. Right. mean, her, her PCV dropped from. It dropped from like high forties down to like low thirties or something like that in the first 24 hours. and some of that, and again, for, for regular people, basically her, her red blood cell count or her blood concentration dropped significantly.

Joanna (09:48)

Right.

Yeah.

It did.

Yep.

Dr. Cliff Redford (10:16)

Even though she probably wasn't losing blood anymore at that point. Maybe there was some internal bleeding, but it wouldn't have been that much. They would have seen it. Yeah, there was nothing obvious, but it was just that all of these adrenal systems were now shutting down and the fluids were diluting the blood and getting the blood pressure back up. so, so her real PCV was in those low thirties. And it was only.

Joanna (10:22)

They checked it over. was no, I mean, they said there was no bleeding.

Right.

Dr. Cliff Redford (10:44)

coming out as a higher number because of all of these emergency systems that we have developed to live long enough until the ambulance comes and gets us. So, you know, the fact that there was a delayed response doesn't mean it's not toxin. It just means we can't explain it. You know, and I mean, they ruled out like, you know, I think for me, I would look at this and I'm not a specialist. I am, you know,

Joanna (10:49)

Right.

That makes sense.

Dr. Cliff Redford (11:12)

As general a practitioner as one, one can get as far as my medical and surgical skills. but I do sort of understand common sense, guess. And they, you know, they ruled out tumor and they ruled out stroke and aneurysm. And, and although the initial things that got her to the hospital, like the vomiting and the weakness and the, and the, the shocky symptoms.

Joanna (11:29)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Cliff Redford (11:40)

I would really be focusing on the cranial nerve deficits because that's such a unique, manifestation of any sort of disease. you know, her pupils weren't responding to light. wasn't, she didn't have a swallow reflex. And so she was choking on her food and, know, all these different things. So, and if it's not a central brain lesion, then it's gotta be something.

Joanna (12:01)

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (12:10)

kind of external and all the blood tests and whatnot. None of them really showed any, you know, they would have, they would have confirmed there's no Addison's disease. They would have confirmed that, you know, generally the liver's healthy and the kidneys are healthy and everything like that. So, and the fact that she kind of responded with just supportive therapy, you know, like, yeah, like she improved and it's

Joanna (12:14)

you

Yeah.

She did in the end, yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (12:39)

You know, it's not like they said, well, here's the problem. Here's the, here's the antidote or here's the, the specific treatment. they just did a hell of a job keeping her alive while her body likely cleared whatever was in, in, I say likely because we don't know, but let's again, the working diagnosis is some sort of toxin. So pretty, pretty scary. And, know, the main thing is she's, she's backed with you and, you know,

Joanna (12:43)

Mm.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Cliff Redford (13:08)

She's your buddy and she's, kept you going through vet school. know it's been a tough, it's a tough road and she, she's your therapist for sure. Your support mechanism.

Joanna (13:10)

My buddy.

She sure has.

Yeah,

well yeah, she I mean, I'm yeah, probably mostly hers, to be honest. I'm mostly her. She's she well, no, we need each other, let's say. But she she yeah, emotional support human for sure for her.

Dr. Cliff Redford (13:27)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

How did

you acquire her? How did she become part of your family?

Joanna (13:39)

She was my neighbor's in Toronto, downtown Toronto. And she was this, I guess, year old border collie when he somehow acquired her from somebody, a friend of his. I don't know where she came from. She came from, it could have been some kind of...

Dr. Cliff Redford (13:59)

Mm-hmm.

Joanna (14:03)

Breeding, backyard breeders, apparently she was found in some warehouse, tied up, I don't know, some horrible start. he had her as this older man, he had her for a little bit. And then I started walking her. And I started sort of taking care of her. I took her to the vet, I got her her vaccines, I got her spayed, like all this stuff.

Dr. Cliff Redford (14:09)

Hmm.

Yeah, he was, that's right.

He was dealing with his own challenges. Yeah.

Joanna (14:30)

He had his own challenges and he just didn't

have the, you know, the capacity to really take care of her. And eventually he had some health issues and I just, I, yeah. She just came to live with us, me and Riker, my other dog. Yeah, so, and now she's here. I did rescue her. Both my dogs are rescues. my gosh. I just, you know, I, cause it was also at that point, you know, it was post, it was right at the end of the pandemic or during to the end.

Dr. Cliff Redford (14:42)

Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. So did rescue her. Yeah, and then you dragged her over to Scotland. There you go.

Joanna (14:59)

And you know, when I was thinking of, well, I should technically quote, re-home her because I already have one dog. I can't even, whatever, I don't have the means to take care of two dogs, one dog, whatever. But it was at that time when I was working with the Etobicoke Humane Society during the pandemic as an adoption coordinator. And you remember right at the beginning of the pandemic, people were adopting like crazy. And then by the end of it, there was...

a ton of dogs back in the shelter, you know, not a ton, but they weren't going as quickly. And I was like, well, I'm not going to give my dog, like, I'm not going to put Missy in a shelter or like take the place of another dog that needs a home. I'll just, I'll figure it out. You know what I mean? I also couldn't really live without her because that's how it is. She's my girl.

Dr. Cliff Redford (15:42)

Yep. Yep.

And you're

good at that though. And that's a, that's a good trait. You're, figured it out. You know, maybe it's not ideal, but it worked out for you and for her and you would make it work taking her to school with you in another country. Yeah.

Joanna (15:51)

I figured it out.

Yeah, we made it work. if people,

you know, it's not something I recommend. If people have if people have the possibility of leaving their pets at home, if they go to vet school, I would say do that because it's it's yeah. But if you don't, you figure it out. You figure it out. People go to the vet school. They have kids. They have families. have, you know, you work it out. yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (16:10)

Yeah, Yeah, but.

Definitely give your kids to someone else while you go to vet school. would highly recommend that.

I'd highly recommend that. Don't do that. I'm just kidding everyone. Yeah, I mean, and we've talked about it before, both when you've been on the podcast and as you know, I've talked about you when you haven't been on the podcast a few times and the inspiration that you've brought me and other people as well. You're not some kid.

Joanna (16:24)

Absolutely. Yeah, that's a no-brainer.

No, we're joking, yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (16:48)

You're not some kid who went from your parents' home at 21 years old after a couple of years of high school, couldn't get into Guelph, or a couple of years of university, couldn't get into Guelph and then went foreign. You're a true adult student and you took a major chance and you, just like bringing Missy to Scotland, you went to vet school.

Joanna (16:48)

Night.

True.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (17:16)

and at a slightly older age than most students, you're still quite young. But you would figure it out. You're going to make this work. You know, this is your dream. So, yeah, so I'm sure Missy appreciates you and you've learned a lot now. You're going to be such a good, a better veterinarian in the future. You know, in the future, some case is going to come to you similar and you're going to have now the tools.

Joanna (17:18)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (17:46)

And it's, it's going to build your empathy as well.

Joanna (17:49)

I

have to say that in terms of the epilepsy, until you have an epileptic dog with separation anxiety, you can't imagine. I just know that if I ever have a patient or client, it's no easy feat. It does help in some way. You learn a lot from your own pets and your own experiences, and it does help.

Dr. Cliff Redford (18:17)

You're going to be like the epileptic

pet whisperer. You're going to be, you're to be the one dealing with it. I mean, the reality is, like, let's talk Cushing's disease, right? Hyperadrenal cortisism, a very, very common or somewhat common disease, more common than epilepsy, not much more, but more common than epilepsy is at least anecdotally, I would say, very complicated disease in vet school, or at least it was for me.

Joanna (18:20)

you

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (18:45)

to learn

about it and some of it is you just don't realize how important it is to, to grasp the basics of Cushing's disease because you're being taught all these different diseases. And then when I was in probably second year, maybe third year out of, out of five years of vet school, my mom's dog, was brought into the hospital in Ontario vet college.

Joanna (18:56)

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (19:14)

with some strange signs and he ended up having Cushing's disease. He developed a typical Cushing's disease, which is not your typical pituitary tumor or adrenal tumor. So not, not pituitary dependent or adrenal dependent, but due to these sex hormone imbalances. And at the time we had to do an emergency drug release to get the drugs from the U S because, you know, this was 20 years ago, but

Joanna (19:35)

Whoa.

my

gosh.

Dr. Cliff Redford (19:42)

When I was in

vet school, he was first presented to the university with this because it was such an atypical presentation. And then they called me out of class because the intern that was taking care of Skipper spoke mostly only French. Being in a Canadian college, she spoke some English, but her English when it came to describing this disease was too medical for my mom to understand.

Joanna (20:00)

my gosh.

Dr. Cliff Redford (20:10)

So I ended up being the translator between English medical jargon to regular English, basically. but it, I, I now comprehend Cushing's a lot more and I'm, and well now, I mean, when this happened and the last 20 years, Skipper obviously passed away quite a while ago due to other things, but we were able to balance this disease. So you, you, you learn what you experience, right? And, and.

Joanna (20:16)

Wow. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, you really

do. It's true. do remember, I do remember when I remember there was a dog that came in. You probably remember the name of the dog at your clinic when I was working there. And you, I remember you, you were like, that's Cushing's. Like you just knew, you know, I just remember to this day, I had that memory still. It's like one of those things, but yeah, there's signs, but

Dr. Cliff Redford (20:40)

You know, so...

Yeah, yeah, it's,

yeah, you become, you become comfortable with what you see, what you see often, right? And, and, and for you, it's, it's not only going to be sort of understanding the effects of these drugs, for epileptic dogs, but, this is so invaluable and, and school will never teach you this. It's that, it's that empathy that you're going to have for people dealing with this specifically with their pets. Cause you'll be able to say.

Joanna (20:59)

Sort of hyper, yeah, yeah, hyper aware in some way. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (21:24)

Mrs. Smith, understand. went through this, you know, so, I still get.

Joanna (21:28)

Yeah.

the effects of

the drugs, no, and the effects of the drugs, say, you know, there's side effects and you're like, you know, and so you really have to weigh things out. And you're like, I, you know, even to this day, I'm like, is it, was it, is it the right thing to have her on all those drugs? Like, yes, it saved her life, but the side effect, she's starving, which is why she got into the mess in the first place. She thinks she's starving. She's, not starving. Of course she's not starving, but.

Dr. Cliff Redford (21:51)

She thinks she's starving. She's not starving because her body comes. Yeah. So, so again,

for, for the regular person listening, phenobarbital especially triggers in some animals, the hunger center of the brain. I don't remember the, the, the pathophysiology of why that happens. I don't even know if they've told us. but you know, for most cases.

Joanna (22:02)

Yeah.

I should know too. I don't think, yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (22:19)

The dogs do great. The average dog does great on just phenobarbital. And I tell them, look, I'm not going to be, you give me a room of 10 dogs and one of them's epileptic on phenobarbital. I may not be able to tell you which one's which, because they all look so good. Unless one of them is fatter than the other, than the others. I'm going to guess that one's on phenobarbital because probably half of them seem to have this, polyphagia, this, this increased hunger. And, and it's like,

Joanna (22:36)

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Dr. Cliff Redford (22:49)

You know, a 30 pound dog all of a sudden gets up onto the table and eats an entire loaf of bread, you know, things like that. So, um, yeah, so that's, uh, that's a point. And she's, she's on three drugs, right? So, um, yeah, she's got a lot, uh, she's got a lot going on. Um, and she's, she's probably a little ADD border Collie, you know, uh, uh, sort of, uh, uh, ready, ready, shoot aim. Um, first, you know,

Joanna (22:54)

Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

Yep.

Yep. Yeah.

hyper fixated, know, yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (23:18)

jumps in with all, with all paws before checking the temperature of the water sort of thing. But, yeah, so we're, all pulling for her and, know, keep me posted. And, she's a wonderful, she's a wonderful girl. And, now you're to be doing cranial nerve exams on her all the time. That's another thing you're going to become brilliant at cranial nerve exams. So, which, mean, that's the important thing of having an animal, with you in vet school is you.

Joanna (23:21)

Absolutely. She sure does. Yeah. Thank you.

you

Yeah. Well, really.

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (23:47)

You just

constantly are examining them. And sometimes it's like, I think my dog has that. think my dog has that and they don't, you know, generally they're fine. But, we're, was constantly poking my animals, and doing examinations on them when I was in vet school. very good. Very good. So let's talk about vet school though. So the last time we chit chatted, it was the beginning of last semester. So I think it was September. maybe.

Joanna (24:01)

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (24:17)

maybe it was even like June, it was the end of the September. So where are you in, in vet school? What, what year are you?

Joanna (24:17)

Thank you.

I'm in my third year. So I'm in my third year out of five. So I'm halfway. We just had our halfway ball. To it, yeah. Yeah. yeah, third out of five. this, the past two years were pre-clinical and now we've just started the clinical years. We've started.

Dr. Cliff Redford (24:26)

out of how many?

That's right, party party. Good.

Right. You're actually starting to really examine animals

and

Joanna (24:51)

examine and just like now it's just like all the diseases and this is all the you know it's like that we're doing the cat and dog course so like it's everything's divided into systems and it's you know these are all the ophthalmology you know diseases that could happen with the eye and then the kidneys and the resp and the cardi a lot of lists and so that's where we're at now and that this this that's going to be the whole rest of the year the semester and then next year we do

equine, exotics, and farm. That's next year. So all the clinical, you know, any anything clinical that has to do with those species and then fifth year is all rotations. So you're in in the hospital. Yeah. Yeah. Basically. Yeah. We're right next door.

Dr. Cliff Redford (25:36)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, fifth year you're working for the college basically or wherever you go. Yeah. that's, mean,

fifth year is, I remember it as being the most exciting. Um, uh, you know, you get to wear the white lab coat and, you know, most of the clients coming into the school would call you a doctor, uh, and we didn't have to correct them. Um, uh, but we would blush, you know, we were very, very excited to hear that.

Joanna (25:51)

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (26:08)

But, was, it was, very little, there was no classes, you know, it it was, it was now just utilize the things you've learned and, and, and start processing the diseases. I honestly think, and I've told you this before, I think that's where you're going to shine. I think, you know, they, they right now, understandably the schools are testing you, you know, you got to know the 10 differentials for whatever.

Joanna (26:18)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (26:38)

But when you're in the clinical setting, what's much more important is knowing how to, which tests to run and your physical exam capabilities. And, and, and all I'm going to say with that is know your anatomy. If you know your anatomy, you can do, you can really work through unique problems. you know, if an animal comes in that doesn't have the typical signs of, of.

Joanna (26:50)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (27:08)

you know, a cancer, let's say, but you know, your anatomy and you can detect an abnormality on the kidneys or an abnormality in the liver or where, you know, where the liver is, you can really at least come up with a reasonable differential list for you to run tests and that, and that's the, that's the important thing is come up with a reasonable differential list and know how to work through the process. And, and you'll find, you know, a lot more than

Joanna (27:20)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Cliff Redford (27:38)

than you think you do. But is it, I mean, I know it's hard, but is it getting less hard? Are you finding it's becoming, no, not at all. You're like, no, this is still really difficult.

Joanna (27:40)

Hope so.

No. No, no, no, no, no. I think

it's it's it's I don't know. Like every semester I say, this is the hardest one yet. Every semester I say, no, this like in some way, I think the first year was the hardest because nothing could have prepared me for what it was. It was like it was nothing I'd I'd ever experienced before. You know, it was.

It was full-time school, it, you know, vet school. mean, it just. Like it was so much information and then you're just so much content, you know, hundreds and hundreds of lectures and you're there all day and then you're going to practicals and then you're, and then you're examined on it and you, you can't bring in any notes. And I'm just like, what is happening? It was a shock. It was a shock. So I think it was the shock that really was really hard.

Dr. Cliff Redford (28:22)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Joanna (28:43)

And now I know what to expect. Like I know that nine months of the year, 90 % of the time, 90, 95%, I study, I have to, that's all I do. That's just what it is, that is my life. I study all day and that's so I could pass. So I study all day just so I could get a pass. So is it getting, it's not, no, not even ace it to get a pass.

Dr. Cliff Redford (29:09)

Not even ace it. Yeah, yeah.

That's good enough. You're gonna do great. You're gonna do great.

Joanna (29:14)

Cause you know, it's fine. don't, I don't like, it's fine. I don't have, I,

but anyway, it's not, it's you know, and then it, I think it's in some way it's harder because you have to, it's like you're, have to use what you have to go back to what you, you learned in first and second year now. And you have to say, you have to synthesize things and connect things. And you're not just learning like first year. mean, you know, you're learning the entire anatomy of the dog.

But now you are learning the entire anatomy and you're saying what could go wrong and you have to, it's, yeah, it's not gonna be easier. But it's, yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (29:50)

Yeah. Yeah. They said

when, when I was getting into vet school and this was something that, Dr. Peter Conlin warned us, and he was the Dean of students, at the time, maybe still is, wonderful guy really understood before sort of burnout and compassion fatigue and mental health issues were, were common understandings, or people were prepared for, he understood the pressures that vet students would be going through.

Joanna (30:09)

Mm.

Dr. Cliff Redford (30:20)

And he had said to us that, first year vet students learn more just content, just words alone, new dialogue. They learn more than first year med students or first year law students. And the main reason is, you know, if we're learning the anatomy of the dog, just like a

Joanna (30:41)

Wow.

Dr. Cliff Redford (30:48)

or an MD is learning the anatomy of a person, well then we got to learn the anatomy of the bird, the horse, the cow, the cat, you know, maybe the pig, maybe, you know, et cetera, et cetera. So it is, it's incredibly daunting. It's very, very difficult, but it's worth it. It's worth it. So, although I get it that,

Joanna (30:57)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (31:16)

You your whole life is pretty much studying, but you get, have a few, you have a few hobbies. You were doing some singing a couple of nights ago.

Joanna (31:24)

I

do, I do have some hobbies. I sing with a Georgian singing group once a week in my town. That's the one thing I do. Not the one thing, Georgian like the country, yeah. I got into that back in my theater days.

Dr. Cliff Redford (31:31)

Okay. Georgian like as in Georgia, like, yeah, yeah, nice.

Do they speak? Is

it Russian that they speak in? Georgian. Okay, so that's another language. All right. Probably very similar, but.

Joanna (31:41)

Georgian. It's Georgian. It's a language. Yeah. And it's a really beautiful,

I think it's a little similar and it's like a polyphonic singing. So it's a strange sort of harmony, harmonizing that's unusual. And I love it. was a, I feel like I've told this story before, but all I wanted to do was join a choir when I got.

Dr. Cliff Redford (31:56)

Wow.

Joanna (32:04)

when I started vet school, I that was the one thing because I find it really therapeutic. It's like very healing and brings me joy. And I really wanted to join a Georgian choir because I can't read music and I just love that type of singing. And strangely, I found up the road they had a Georgian singing group in my little tiny town, which is like, yeah, serendipity. was. I do that and I prioritize. I do some kind of exercise every single day.

Dr. Cliff Redford (32:19)

Yeah, beautiful.

It was meant to be.

Yeah, you're swimmer.

Joanna (32:35)

have to, swimming, weights,

yoga. I mean, yeah, I do something like I swim laps. It just, helps. And I walk the dogs and then I study.

Dr. Cliff Redford (32:44)

Hugely important. I mean, hugely important for any intense career or academic pursuit. You're working your brain so much. You got to work your body because that's what's keeping your brain, all the blood pumping to your brain, And just the endorphin release and whatnot. I've had quite a few sort of...

Joanna (32:45)

You have to have have to.

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (33:14)

super accomplished people on my podcast in the veterinarian field of one way or another. And I'm just as interested in their their hobbies and they all seem to have a a not necessarily physically intense but intense requiring focus some sort of physical pursuit. You know, with you meditating it's it's

Joanna (33:26)

Mm.

Hmm.

Dr. Cliff Redford (33:43)

You you focusing to not think about school and everything else. And then, you know, when I did yoga, I couldn't get out of my head. That was what I didn't like about yoga, but, you know, certainly swimming, you're just swimming. Like it just turns that that turns into a meditative form right there. And with me and my boxing, the second I start, I start thinking about work or something like that, I, I get

Joanna (33:58)

Yeah.

It does. Yeah.

You

get punched in the face. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (34:09)

Usually reminded. Yeah, I get reminded with a punch in the nose. It happens all

the time. So yeah, it's so, so important. And that's gonna that's gonna get you going, get you through vet school as well. Is there is there much support for students if they find that they're struggling academically there? Good.

Joanna (34:15)

Yeah.

It really is. Yeah.

There's a lot of support.

It's really good here. I mean, they really want you. They want you to succeed. There's a lot of support. There's tons, tons. I wouldn't say I've made all this money. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (34:37)

Good. That was always something at, at

OVC. mean, you needed at the, back in my day, needed mid to high eighties to get in plus a really good, you know, a really good interview and less good interview. If you had higher marks, my, my marks were barely good enough to get me in. So I did well on the interview process, but, like they, they kind of said, once you're in, you need.

Joanna (35:03)

Hmm.

Dr. Cliff Redford (35:05)

60 % in 60 % of your classes to continue. You got to pass all your classes. like if you had 10 classes, if you got 51 in four of them and 61 in the other six, that's 60 % and 60 % of your classes. And they constantly said, you're having trouble academically, we'll help you. We will find you someone from a higher class or whatnot.

Joanna (35:17)

Hmm.

Dr. Cliff Redford (35:34)

extra time with the professor. You've invested so much of your life academically and emotionally, psychologically to get here. We don't want you to fail without us helping you as much as, as, as is needed. So I'm glad that that continues.

Joanna (35:43)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. And now also, luckily, you know, there's a huge, with every mental health issues in terms of the veterinary, there's a lot of support in that regard as well. Just, yeah, it's really good. Yeah. Fortunately, you're all, you know, when I think of that, I'm like, I don't have time for support, but it's there. I have to study. It's there. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (36:02)

Yeah, yeah, they understand. They understand. Perfect.

It's there if you need it. and, and it sounds like

other than informally, like, you know, spending time with your friends and at the choir and, know, talking to people like me, like you've got the support, but you're getting by, like you're, passing and there's, that's no, you know, that's no small feat.

Joanna (36:20)

Yeah.

Somehow I'm getting by. I'm passing.

And

every single exam, I think I'm gonna fail. I don't, you know. So it doesn't, yeah. And it's not just, yeah, it's, yeah, yeah. But the...

Dr. Cliff Redford (36:44)

You'll still be a doctor when you graduate. Yeah. You'll still be a doctor.

and then you're, and then the fun part of your life can, can begin, but you get to really help animals instead of doing it just for, yeah. Good stuff. Do you, as we sort of slowly wrap this up, do you like your, are you thinking about getting into general practice or specialty or you're like, I just want to get out and start working.

Joanna (36:54)

Woo! Get to go to India!

I'm a general practice gal, for sure. I'm a basic girl. Not basic, but I don't mean that, but I mean like I don't want to specialize. I don't want to specialize. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (37:16)

Yeah, good. We need more of those.

Yeah, you're right.

Grassroots, I'm gonna help your puppy

or a kitten live as long as possible. Yeah.

Joanna (37:32)

Yeah, and if I can't, I refer. But I'm not,

I have one of my closest friends here knows that she wants to be a surgeon. She knows she wants to go right away. And that's her. But me, wanna be on the streets. I wanna go to India, I wanna be getting my hands dirty, I wanna have my...

Dr. Cliff Redford (37:51)

You're still going to be doing surgery.

Yeah. Yeah.

Joanna (37:52)

I will be doing surgery, I

don't want to be... But who knows? Never say never, right? Maybe I'll be like, my God, I love the eye and I want to become an ophthalmologist. I don't know. But I also know that I really need a break from school after this. Like, thousand percent. Get out of the classroom and...

Dr. Cliff Redford (38:05)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, that was, that was, that was me

when I graduated. you know, so many of my class went on to specialties and it's now it's a, it's a common trend. Now I T I talked to so many students and they all talk about getting into specialties, not all of them. Most of them talk about getting into specialties. And I also see it when they graduate. talked to veterinarians as they're graduating, sometimes looking to hire them, you know,

Joanna (38:20)

Really.

Mmm.

Wow.

Dr. Cliff Redford (38:40)

Et cetera, et cetera. And they go, no, I'm going to do a six month stint at an emergency hospital. There's a mentoring program. and then I'd like to stick with, you know, critical medicine or et cetera, et cetera. And, it's unfortunate. I actually feel like some of them as a whole, I feel like the vet student world doesn't appreciate how wonderful it is being a regular veterinarian.

Joanna (38:46)

Wow. That's cool.

Dr. Cliff Redford (39:11)

and doing wellness exams and saving that animal's life when they come to your clinic because you are five minutes away and you can get the animal stable before it gets driven over to the emergency hospital. It is not a or routine or mundane practice.

Joanna (39:14)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But also.

But look what you I mean you're general practitioner but look at your work in the shades of hope like that's far from routine there, you know. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (39:44)

Yeah.

Yeah. And I mean, I've definitely branched out.

I've definitely branched out, but it took me 20, more than 20 years as a veterinarian to decide to do that. Maybe not quite very close though. I think it was 19 years when I started traveling and volunteering. So, and that has brought me a new passion. I've always been passionate about this, this field and being a veterinarian. It's a huge, important part of my life, but it has become even more.

Joanna (39:56)

Hmm

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (40:16)

fun, more exciting and more rewarding now that I get to work on bald eagles and little squirrels and porcupines and possums. know, they're so cool. Awesome possums. But yeah, I'm glad that I'm glad that you're you're you're thinking and you're obviously you're going to do whatever you want to do, but I'm glad that you're right now still. Never, never. There was a period where I actually applied

Joanna (40:23)

opossums. my favorite. love.

I definitely do.

Did you ever think about specializing? Did it ever cross your mind?

Dr. Cliff Redford (40:46)

for a, I think it's called a general practitioner specialty. And it was a, you basically had to have worked as a general practitioner, small animal only, like companion animal hospital for a certain amount of time. I don't know, five years, but it was well into 10 years when I was probably 15 years when I was thinking about it. And you basically, there's a, you had to.

Joanna (40:51)

Whoa, okay.

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (41:13)

Apply and you had to put in all these different cases that you've seen, all these surgeries that you've seen. And then you had to pick like three cases and you had to write reports on them. and I got as far as doing two of the reports and sent them in like two of the cases. and then on the third one, I was just like, why am I, why am I doing this? This is not. This is not for me. You know, it was, it was almost like a.

Joanna (41:38)

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (41:42)

I was just looking for a feather in my cap. but I think at that time, you know, I was starting to, there was something I was missing and I didn't know what that was. And then, and then I fell in love with traveling and, working with wild animals as well. but if anyone asked me, like, if you, know, if I had to choose between companion animal hospital or sort of traveling and wildlife, I'd pick companion animal hospital. for me,

Joanna (41:44)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Mm.

Hmm.

Dr. Cliff Redford (42:11)

Half of the joy is the bond with the clients and seeing them through puppy to senior stage and helping them say goodbye to their animal. And then seeing the kids grow up and become adults and then come in with their kids, like that sort of thing is so rewarding. So I would not give that up, but thank goodness no one's asking me to.

Joanna (42:20)

Yeah.

Yeah.

you

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (42:39)

I get to keep doing

it, so this year you got your your clinicals and then you got the summer off, right?

Joanna (42:46)

Well, no, we have to do placements. Yeah, so I'm booked here doing eight weeks in Scotland of placements. So, so your whole summer, you, it's EMS, extramural studies. So, you know, all the UK students that have come to you, like Sophia and, and Daniella, they're all doing their placements. And the reason I don't go, when I go to Canada,

Dr. Cliff Redford (42:56)

Did you get paid? No, man.

Joanna (43:15)

I go home, I can only go because of the dogs. go to hang, they, yeah. You have to, we have to do.

Dr. Cliff Redford (43:17)

Right, right,

Do they come to me

during the summer?

Joanna (43:25)

You could do it any time on any break. So I'm going to do a week in April. I'm going to do a week in April. I'm going to do another seven weeks in the summer in Scotland. Like if I didn't have the dogs here, I would say, OK, I'll come to Toronto for two months and work like no brainer. But I can't. So, yeah. But yeah, so the summer is.

Dr. Cliff Redford (43:28)

but it has to be during a break.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, no, you've got family there. Missy needs you. She doesn't need the plane ride.

Joanna (43:53)

No way. I'm not doing that again. So that's

Dr. Cliff Redford (43:55)

Gotcha. So that's different.

Joanna (43:57)

different. We have to do 26 weeks.

Dr. Cliff Redford (44:00)

Wow. So when, when I was in vet school between, um, I'm going to say third and fourth year, which is the finals, it's cause the zero year is pre-vet. It's a five year program, but, um, on our last summer before our final year, we had to do eight weeks placement. called it an externship. I did it at a mixed animal practice in Paris, Ontario.

Joanna (44:10)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Nice.

Dr. Cliff Redford (44:27)

And I picked that because I didn't have a lot of experience with horses or cattle and, I needed it and I wanted it. and then other than that, it's clinical rotations and during the school year on your final year. And there were, there were periods of what they called open week where you didn't get a rotation. There might've been five one week rotations that you didn't get a placement in some sort of specialty practice, of the university.

Joanna (44:38)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (44:54)

And so if you're really interested in companion animal medicine, let's say like I was, or general practice, you would find a general practice to do your open, which is what I did. but that was all during the school year. Like I still had eight weeks in my final summer and then 16 weeks of every single summer during university to make some money and pay some bills.

Joanna (45:07)

Yeah.

Yeah.

No,

don't have any. Unfortunately, we don't have that. All the UK vet schools are like that. even prior to our clinical, we had to do 12 weeks of animal husbandry EMS. So that's all farm. It's all husbandry, so non-clinical. So I did two weeks of the dairy. did a week with dogs, a week with cats. I did a week with two weeks with guinea pigs. did...

Dr. Cliff Redford (45:29)

Right.

Like,

Joanna (45:42)

lambing my two weeks, lambing. So you're doing all that. And

Dr. Cliff Redford (45:42)

serious. You're paying your dues.

Joanna (45:46)

it's, it's, you know, at first I was really, I was, I wasn't looking forward to it, but that's been some of the highlights of my time here has been the placements. And I can't really, you know, some have been, some have been not great. Like I'd rather forget them, but some have just been, you know, you go to these amazing places in Scotland and you're on these beautiful farms and it's, it's, it's incredible doing things that

You learn a lot from it. And I did a couple of weeks already of clinical observational before we started our clinical. We could do a couple of weeks and I did it at a practice just up the road here. And that was great. it's definitely for me, I'm happier there than the classroom. So I'm like, okay, okay, phew. it's, yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (46:32)

So what

we gotta do one day is get you to come on one of the trips with me, like maybe to a CalWit. And that'll be part of your placement. Like, it'd be legit. Like, we saw regular cases in a CalWit animal hospital, you know?

Joanna (46:37)

I know and and do it for EMS. Yes. Any truly. No, we can. You sign

off. We just do it and it's you're the vet. It doesn't like it's through Markham. It doesn't matter. It's. No, shouldn't we shouldn't say. But I also I also will. I also will do at some point I will do like I would love to do a week or two at Markham like.

Dr. Cliff Redford (46:54)

Yeah, they don't know where you're going. But I mean, it'd be it'd be yeah, that's

We're gonna get you. We're gonna get you back.

Joanna (47:07)

either next summer at,

you know, at some point. It's just, when I come home now, I don't wanna, like, I wanna be just hanging out. I wanna see family and friends. Like, I don't wanna be working, but, you know, at some, I will. Also, yeah, I love that. Also in our final year now, they've changed the rules so that you have to save eight weeks of your externship or extramural studies to go towards your final year.

Dr. Cliff Redford (47:14)

You want to see family, you want to relax. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We can do, we can do a placement at the local pub for three hours. That'd be nice.

Joanna (47:37)

So eight weeks I have to do during our rotations as well. it's so.

Dr. Cliff Redford (47:40)

Right. Because then

you'll have time, you'll have the skills to do spays and neuters and scrub in and learn how to do bladder surgeries and start having real conversations with the veterinarian. Yeah.

Joanna (47:44)

Yeah

Yeah,

so maybe we'll go to India or something in a couple years.

Dr. Cliff Redford (47:56)

There you go.

We'll figure that out. Definitely. All right. Well, keep us posted with how Missy is doing. Keep us posted with how you're doing and you finish this semester when?

Joanna (48:03)

I will thank you. Thank you.

End of May.

Dr. Cliff Redford (48:10)

Okay, so maybe after a couple of weeks of you recouping and whatnot, we're gonna have you back on here and you can tell us all about how you thought you were gonna fail and you didn't. It's gonna be the same story and that's okay. No, that's all right. And then this will be saved for eternity. So one day when you're a veterinarian, we're gonna play it back at your...

Joanna (48:12)

Yeah.

Okay, oh my gosh. It's gonna be the same story, but like it's so hard, blah, blah, blah. I'm so sick of it myself, of hearing myself doing that.

Dr. Cliff Redford (48:37)

10, 15 and 20 year anniversary of being a vet. And then at your retirement party. I hope I'm still around and able to see that. You might retire before I do, by the way I'm going. I love it. Yeah, who knows? Who knows? I'll go forever. All right, perfect. let's, yeah, it'll just be a different thing. It'll be selling my clinic and.

Joanna (48:45)

Yeah. my god.

Probably. Yeah, I kind of mentioned you retiring really. I don't think...

Right. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (49:06)

and doing something else and, know, I'll be, yeah, exactly. Living in Greece and doing some work with nine lives, cut rescue and, and whatnot, and working for cash under the table at some clinic there, who knows, or maybe teaching who knows, you know, maybe just doing some general teaching, or maybe this podcast will blow up and this will be part of my, my job. it's just talking more and more about the vet life. So who knows? Excellent.

Joanna (49:08)

moving to Greece and open in a little clinic there. Yeah.

How amazing. How amazing. Yeah! Moved it. Yeah.

Yeah.

Thank you for having me. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (49:34)

That's a good place to say

goodbye.