Liz White - Animal Protection Party of Canada.

In this episode, Dr. Cliff Redford interviews Liz White, the leader of the Animal Protection Party of Canada. They discuss the party's formation, its focus on animal rights, environmental advocacy, and the need for electoral reform in Canada. Liz shares her journey into animal activism, the challenges faced by smaller political parties, and the importance of addressing climate change and animal agriculture. The conversation also touches on wildlife protection, ethical considerations in research, and the future of animal rights in the political landscape.

Additional information can be found at www.animalprotectionparty.ca

Be sure to follow me on Instagram @drcliffworldwidevet.com
Listener questions, episode suggestions, or if you have a good idea for a guest, email me at dr.redford@vet905.com
Additional information can be found at drcliff.ca

Transcript

Dr. Cliff Redford (00:00)

Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of vet life with me, Dr. Cliff. We've got a fun episode coming up. it's kind of a surprise guest, surprise for me. I guess every guest is a surprise for you. but, I ended up, I was, I was chit chatting with my dad. We're talking about politics. I think it was, it all started when my brother sent a photo.

of his son installing a lawn sign for the political party that they're supporting. And, I think it was just, just to stir up a little bit, a little bit of trouble, which is good. We all, we all love each other and respect each other. And, you know, it's nice talking about politics and, my dad happened to say, well, unfortunately, Cliff,

You don't have a member of the animal protection party in your riding or else you could have voted for them. I didn't know who they were. And so I ended up going down a bit of a rabbit hole and no pun intended, I guess. Went down a little bit of rabbit hole and found out about this animal protection party of Canada, which was founded a couple of decades ago. And it's, you know, it's

It's about a lot more than protecting animals, though that is a big important part of it. It's their party wants to protect the environment. Their party wants to have some electoral reform. Indigenous rights are very important to the party members. So I ended up sitting down and chatting with, I guess I reached out with Liz White, who's the co-founder and the president. And she is a candidate.

in the Danforth region in Toronto and in Toronto Danforth, and she got back to me and this ended up being, this is going to be the first of several episodes coming up over the next week or two, where I interview leaders of Canadian political parties. So she was, she was my first, as far as stepping into the political ring. And it was such a joy talking to her. learned so much.

So stay tuned and enjoy this episode.

Dr. Cliff Redford (02:30)

Hey everyone, welcome back to the podcast. I am very excited to introduce all of you to today's guest. She is the leader of the Animal Protection Party of Canada. This is a party focusing on creating a government that will protect animals.

empower people and preserve the environment. Liz White, thank you so much for coming on.

Liz White, Animal Protection (02:52)

Thank you for having me. Good to be here.

Dr. Cliff Redford (02:55)

This

is very exciting. So thank you, thank you. I'll have to admit some naivete or some ignorance. I did not know about your party until it was actually my father and he listens to this podcast and he's very wise and very knowledgeable. yeah, Papa Ross said, hey, what about this animal protection party? Unfortunately, they're not in your riding. I'm up in Scarborough here in Toronto.

And then I did the deep dive and found out so many great things about you. So I guess why don't you start with the Cliffs Notes of your life story.

Liz White, Animal Protection (03:34)

My life story, well, it's quite long because I'm quite old. Just to abbreviate it, I got involved in the animal movement through my very good friend, Clay Ruby, who I think some people remember as a criminal lawyer. And at the time, he was representing the Torontium Maine Society in a big kerfuffle that took place because of how the board voted and

Dr. Cliff Redford (03:39)

haha

Liz White, Animal Protection (04:02)

what members were left off the board and who got on. So it was a big cathuffle. So he asked me to come down and do some PR for the Toronto Humane Society, which I did. And it was there that I really decided that this is what I was meant to do. Interestingly, I'd never really thought about it before, but it really gripped me and the issues really gripped me. So at some point,

We had to part the Toronto Maine Society. were a number of us that left and we formed Animal Alliance in 1990. And then we formed the political party in 2006 after the court ruled that the barriers to having a small party be legitimized by election candidate was too high. And so at that point, the government set it at one candidate. If you put one candidate on the ballot, you could remain as a party or become a party.

So that's what we did in 2005 and 2006. And we've run candidates ever since. it's because it's a small party, very, very difficult to grow because of the way the system is set at the first past the post. And really there are only three major parties. The Green Party has elected people there, but they don't have people running in every riding and they're very small in actual fact.

So you're competing against the three big parties, the Liberals, Conservatives, and the NDP. And so that's why we're supporting a Supreme Court approach to asking them to rule that we should be in proportional representation of some kind and not first past the post. So it means that those kinds of voting systems allow

representation of a much broader group of people as opposed to just those who like liberals or those who like conservatives.

Dr. Cliff Redford (06:02)

Yeah, so that essentially would be if 5 % of the population voted for Animal Protection Party of Canada, there should be approximately 5 % of the seats of House of Commons with people representing the country as a whole. Is that sort of how it would work? Yeah, because right now you could have, yeah, right now you could have, well, know Jagmeet Singh is in trouble. You know, the polls make it seem like he's going to lose.

Liz White, Animal Protection (06:17)

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Dr. Cliff Redford (06:32)

Official party status. and you know, don't know the exact numbers, but obviously he's not getting the anywhere close to the seats. So the number of votes that he gets across across Canada. Um, and in theory you could have, you know, if one candidate got 40 % of the votes or one party got 40 % of the votes in every single writing. In theory, you could have a wave of blue or wave of.

like an entire country of one party so yeah I guess it's a bit of an issue. I read on your website you talked about single transferable vote for electoral reform. Does that have anything to do with this? Could you please explain that?

Liz White, Animal Protection (07:02)

Yep. Yep.

Well,

Canada has looked at two types of proportional representation and flirted on the periphery of actually implementing it in some of the provinces. So in British Columbia and Ontario and I think Prince Edward Island, but I'm not exactly sure about that. And they looked at two types of proportional representation possibilities. One is the single transferable vote and the other was mixed member proportional.

They're kind of difficult to describe exactly how they work. It takes a little bit of time to understand it, which I think makes people a bit leery. But basically you go in and you may vote for, you have a list of candidates, right? And you give your preference for one, two, three, four, whatever. And as one of the candidates falls off the ballot, because they, you know, at each round when they don't get a certain amount of votes and they fall off the ballot.

then those votes are allocated proportionally to the candidates that are remaining. So that's a fairly easy thing to understand, but the mixed member proportional is a little bit more complex because it involves both elected people and appointed people. So you have a mixture of representation.

Dr. Cliff Redford (08:42)

Right, got you. And that's how...

Liz White, Animal Protection (08:43)

And I was just going to say, oh,

go ahead.

Dr. Cliff Redford (08:47)

no no no please go ahead

Liz White, Animal Protection (08:50)

I was going to say a really good example of it is Party for the Animals in the Netherlands. started this, so they had proportional representation in the Netherlands. They formed a party and they've elected a representative to the European Parliament, to their national, whatever their national assembly is called, and all the way down through to maintaining the water works. So they have a number of candidates at all levels of government.

And yeah, it's amazing. And they're very active politically and they've got some real changes in legislation there. So it is possible for it to work. So I think, if we get proportional representation, I think that'll revolutionize the party.

Dr. Cliff Redford (09:39)

Yeah, that could really make a big difference, you know, revolutionize the party, but the country as well. can, it would actually give people a feeling that their vote matters. You know, where I am here in Toronto, I know I'm not going to be voting for the big two. I'm not voting, liberal and I'm not voting conservative, which means you could argue my vote doesn't matter.

And although I guess there's a, there's a dollar fee that every, do they still do that where a party receives a dollar fee or a dollar amount for every vote that they receive?

Liz White, Animal Protection (10:17)

Yeah, there's a dollar value on every vote. And the problem is that they've the election, the Cannes Elections Act excludes the smaller parties from that money. So we're looking at a possibility of going to court to get to say, look, this is just unfair. You know, a vote is a vote. And why shouldn't the smaller parties have the money for it? So we're going to go to the we're going to go to court to see if we can get that changed.

Dr. Cliff Redford (10:30)

really?

Yeah. Yeah. And it could make a huge difference. And I mean, you know, I would assume, let's say the Netherlands, I don't know how many are in their, their, federal government, their sort of house of commons, their version of it, but one or two seats across an entire country can still make a difference. not only in just having a chance to raise awareness, but you know, sometimes that, that independent, let's say, and I know you guys wouldn't be considered independent, but

That independent seat or that one lone seat can be the tiebreaker. and boy, that give them, it gives quite a voice to the people that they're representing. and you know, like I think the green party only, do they only have a seat in Guelph? Is that, they might have two, there's one in Guelph and maybe the East coast. Yeah. So, you know, but like they could make a difference, right? And, and if we could have a better.

Liz White, Animal Protection (11:32)

Two, have two.

Yeah, they do have, they have two, yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (11:45)

sort of representation of the true desires of the voting community. I would argue, I'm sure there's no argument to it, that it would get a lot more people voting as well. Because our numbers are pretty abysmal as far as the interest in voting that the average person has. And I'm sure if there was a much more representation of the country as a whole and the number of votes, then more people would vote.

And then we would truly see how many people support the animal protection parties platform or some of these other less main parties. Yeah, it'd be really interesting and in the long run, very valuable, I think. Yeah, very valuable. So explain to me, I also saw on your site, you guys would like, let's see, I wrote down here.

If you had it your way, a minimum of 12 seats reserved in the House of Commons for advocates of the environment. So how would that, if you had your way, how would that work?

Liz White, Animal Protection (12:50)

said that again, I just didn't quite hear it.

Dr. Cliff Redford (12:54)

Yeah, no problem. So I had read and, and, and I apologize if, if I'm misunderstanding, had read regarding your electoral reform platform that your party would like to see a minimum of 12 seats reserved in the house of commons for advocates of the environment.

Liz White, Animal Protection (13:13)

It's an interesting suggestion that I think makes people think differently about politics. And you have the same old, same old people and the same old, same old platforms. when you get mad at them, they don't answer your questions and you can't get meetings and so on and so forth. So the thought was that we would have 12 seats or

It may be different. would be up to the assembly about what that would look like. those would be people who were independent of the politics within the parties themselves to advocate on various issues that really don't get raised or are avoided by politicians that need discussion, not only about environmental issues, but animal agriculture contributes.

hugely to global warming. And, you know, I can't think of a time that anybody has talked about it in parliament and discussed the issue. How are we going to deal with this? Even if we stopped all the carbon tax and all the other stuff, we still wouldn't reach our goal because of the influence of animal agriculture on the environment. And so it would mean that people there would be talking about

issues that others would not possibly raise.

Dr. Cliff Redford (14:48)

Yeah, and then it would give them the support or I guess you could say that the power to not vote along party lines, but vote along the lines of their morals. Know the things that they're interested in, right? Cause I'm sure it's probably.

people young and old who get into politics and are excited and maybe they have a name behind them. So it allows them to get the nomination and allows them to win. And they've sided up with a party that they feel agrees with them. And then once they're in, they're all of a sudden, you know, having a conversation with the party whip about this is the way you got to vote for this upcoming document. And I may agree on

the main title and I may agree on item A but then they sneak in stuff on page 67 or whatever, 167. It's like wait a minute, I don't agree with this other part, I can't support this and I'm sure they'll get pushed one way or another. But I guess that's the problem with human nature as a whole in general is we get overwhelmingly, let's say in

Liz White, Animal Protection (16:01)

I think that's probably right.

Dr. Cliff Redford (16:06)

overwhelmingly encouraged, what might say bullied into, into making decisions that you don't necessarily agree with. Yeah, that's a tough one. That's a tough one. Now you'd, I, again, had read on your website that, and this, this kind of breaks my heart, but if it's true, we got to, we got to get it out there that Canada is one of the world's worst climate breakdown offenders. Could you explain that?

Liz White, Animal Protection (16:32)

Canada

is

Dr. Cliff Redford (16:35)

One of the worst climate breakdown offenders. So I guess we're responsible. Yeah. So, and is it basically due to animal agriculture?

Liz White, Animal Protection (16:39)

yeah.

No, there's a number of different reasons for it, but those people who study these things sort of put categories as to who's most contributing to the carbon footprint. So those one, two, three, and animal agriculture is one of those. well, until actually I need to amend that because

not totally because when Trudeau was in, I'm sort of sad that everybody hated him in a way. And I understand why I did, but, he did the cap and he did the, the, the tax, the carbon tax. So it was on industry and it was on people in order to change behavior, to stop people, you know, getting in great big, huge cars.

sitting alone in them, driving down into the city for work or out of the city for work and back. And that actually worked. There has been a decline. So as they describe it, the trajectory that we had was this. And when they introduced the carbon tax, it started to even off. It hasn't gone below again, but it started to even off. And the problem is that, of course, Mark Carney canceled that right the minute he

got elected and the minute the election was called. So, you know, I think we're, I think in terms of the environment, we're in real trouble. I don't think, I don't think the politicians are talking about it or want to talk about it. And people don't want to hear it. And, you know, changing behavior is really hard. And there was an incentive there because you get a check back, right? You get a check back from the government four times a year that gives you more money back that you would pay in tax.

So, but it was very poorly explained. So Canada was moving in that direction, but I would go back to say if we are in the business of building more pipelines and extracting more oil and so on from the ground, then I think Canada will never meet their carbon footprint or will never decrease their carbon footprint.

Dr. Cliff Redford (19:07)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, as far as, and I do not understand, I didn't fully understand the carbon tax and, and, you know, they, they, they talked about how important it was and whether it was or wasn't, it sounds like it was, but then if it's so important, how could it be canceled so quickly by the same party that put it in? Like it, it, it's this, what's it called? A carton pony show or whatever, but

The reality is if you want, I mean my wife's from Greece, so I've started to learn more and more about Europe and people aren't going to change their driving habits or the habits of buying vehicles until things start to cost what it does in Europe. mean there's no way anyone's driving a giant SUV in Greece. Certainly even upper middle class, you got to be super rich to be able to do that and then everyone's going to look at you like you're the biggest schmuck in the world.

Liz White, Animal Protection (20:04)

Yes!

Dr. Cliff Redford (20:05)

Um, so,

you know, the, carbon, and I'm not saying we should be charged, you know, three, three times more for gas, but the reality is, is people aren't going to, uh, change their, you know, they're not going to change their tune. Uh, if gas costs 20 % more, um, but maybe it was helping with the, the, larger businesses, um, and trying to, I know with my clinic and it's a very small business, you know, I employ 10 people. My clinic is maybe 2,500 square feet.

The electrical bill is enough for me to be really, I'm like my father walking around clicking the lights off as much as, you know, as much as I can, you know, doing everything I can, turning off those computers every single night, all those different things. Yes, to save the environment, but also to save the pocketbook. So yeah, there's gotta be a way, but boy, Canada being, you know, causing that much trouble. I guess what surprised me about that is I've been to India.

I've been to places in Asia and you know, is it a per capita sort of number that we're looking at? Because the pollution that comes out of India is extreme and I can't blame them. It's, you know, they're worried about where their next meal is coming from. They're not, they're unfortunately not worrying about, you know, the environment 20 years from now or 40 years from now.

Liz White, Animal Protection (21:33)

Yeah, I agree. It's, it's, yeah, it's very, very difficult to change people's desires. I mean, you know, in Toronto, I, I mostly I used to use the TTC I had, I do have a car now because I had major surgery, but people are sitting singly in their car, great big, huge cars, and wondering why there's traffic congestion. You know, there's no, and people are driving

Dr. Cliff Redford (21:33)

You know, so it's a little tough and

Liz White, Animal Protection (22:02)

along the road under which there is a subway that you could get to the same place. So, you know, there's a really locked in mentality that people have the right to drive wherever they were, you know, you have to provide the road space and you got to get rid of the bike lanes and you got to do all those various things. And at the end of the day, you know, all just all those vehicles cruising along for hours and hours, pollutes the environment. And

You know, we do have alternatives. They need help, those alternatives. You know, they need proper funding to get back to where they used to be, but nonetheless, they're there and you don't have to take your car. You just don't have to. It depends on where you're going, of course. But you know, I travel on transit up to Markham and go way up into Markham and way west into Markham and the transit there is great.

pretty good. So you know, you don't have to, you don't have to drive a car. And but you know, there's this incredible push in Alberta to keep the oil flowing. And I understand that because a lot of jobs are connected with it. But ultimately, we have to get off that and onto something that does isn't as polluting. And you know, that just takes hard work.

I think the carbon tax just became a toxic issue. think Pierre Poliev, the leader of the Conservative Party actually made it toxic because he was talking about acts the tax, acts the tax, you know, all that sort of stuff. So I don't think we could have continued with it, but maybe there are other ways that we can do it.

Dr. Cliff Redford (23:50)

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, uh, you don't have to understand what the carbon tax is. let's say, put it another way. If you don't understand what the carbon tax is what it's trying to do, if you have a very nice slogan, ask the tax. No one likes taxes, right? Like that's the, everyone's just going to say, yeah, I don't like taxes. Let's get rid of it. It's like, well, wait a minute. Uh, you know, your taxes pay for your healthcare. You're going to get rid of that. mean, no, thank you. Um,

so, you know, taxes have some amazing value and especially in a, in a country that, that tries to take care of, you know, we all try and take care of our neighbors here. I loved the sort of comment or the direction on your platform that talked about, and this is the tie back to say India and how it's a developing country and they've got other things to worry about other than, than, carbon footprint, but your party really embraces the

opinion of uplifting all governments, like all countries, you know, and, and, you know, not, not, what's it called? Like protectionism and, and isolationism and whatnot. And, and, and competing with these other countries. Like there's only one planet. And, and the reality is, is yes, we can do a lot more than we are here in Canada, to deal with our footprint.

But imagine what we could do as a whole if we could somehow uplift every country economically, socially. Pardon me. Yeah, so I really appreciated seeing that.

Liz White, Animal Protection (25:33)

Yeah, think the real, you have to work with people to change their minds. There's no point in being a top-down person and saying, you have to do this, you have to do that, and you can't do this. And that just makes people angry and gets their back up. Whereas I think there's a real opportunity, I think, right now with all the tariffs.

Dr. Cliff Redford (25:35)

Pardon me.

Liz White, Animal Protection (26:02)

that are being implemented by the Trump administration to begin to change our behavior in Canada so that we reach out to like-minded countries and work with them and reach out to countries that need help and work with them and increase our aid to countries. mean, the US aid that they cut off to Africa meant that people couldn't get their drugs for

for just basic illnesses that they needed to have the drugs for. I mean, it's really crazy. We're a rich country, whether we think about it or not. And so is the United States and so are Europe. And we've talked about giving money to other countries to make sure that they move forward with the environmental protection activities. I know it's hard to know that the money's going in the right spot. You have to have people actually monitoring that.

And I think the USAID, the foreign aid in the US actually had people on the ground delivering the aid to countries. And that's kind of the model that we should do for the environment. I agree. Some people, people in India, not everybody, but a lot of people in India just don't have the resources to even do anything like that. It's about living from day to day.

It's about helping people get over that and seeing if we can accommodate and teach people how to do things better. And I think ultimately our economy is built on ever increasing consumption. The only way that our economy grows is the more you eat, the more you drink, the more you buy, the more you do this, that drives our economy. And that is not,

It can't work, right? you know, we take all that stuff for granted when people in other countries don't have that luxury. And I think we need to really think carefully about who we are and what we do and begin to change all of that so that we begin to, you know, be much more open and outreaching to countries that need our help.

Dr. Cliff Redford (28:23)

Yeah. Yeah. Like ultimate growth is not sustainable growth, right? Like we want to be, we want to sustain our, our health, our, our, our health as a country, not, and our health as a world, not just see if our GDP can climb more than the guy down the down, you know, on the other side of the world. So, yeah, that's, that's definitely, we've, yeah, we've fallen into that trap, as a generalized statement.

Um, now you're, you're, mean, we, this has been amazing, uh, talking about, uh, just democracy and, and the environment. Um, but you are the animal protection party leader. Um, there's some, there's some, there's some hard hitting ideas that you guys have on your platform regarding protecting animals and, and, know, like making them, uh, what did you guys call non-human persons so that they have similar rights to, you or I.

Can we talk about some of your main, what are your main key interests as far as animal protection?

Liz White, Animal Protection (29:28)

Well, we've done a lot of work on animal agriculture and the reason for that is there's massive numbers of animals that are raised for food, slaughtered for food, you know, all that sort of stuff. we need to really cut into that and that would tie in with the global warming stuff. So it all fits together. And I think people assume that where we get our food is humane.

And you know, when you go to, when you go to, I went to a court case on Nepalodge farms, they slaughter chickens and they do 300 to 500,000 a day, a day. So there is no way that they can treat those animals humanely. There's just no way. It's about a, it's about an assembly line, right? And the same with the, with pigs, the same,

less so with cows. I think it's a little bit harder with them because they're much larger. But you know, I've stood in front of a slaughterhouse and in comes a trailer and they have loaded on animals that shouldn't have been transported. They're called dairy cows and some of them are downers. They should not be on that truck. And so, but I've complained about it and the CFIA says, yes, we care about animal welfare. Thank you very much. And that's the end of that issue.

it's, it's pulling that, that curtain away. It's a very, it's very hard to get information about what's going on. And that's why we're interveners in the ag gang legislation that's before the courts. Now that, that Doug Ford tried to pass to say that, you couldn't, you couldn't investigate in barns and slaughterhouses and auction barns and places like that.

that would make you, it would be illegal for you to do that and you would be punished for it. So that's partly been struck down. going for the rest of it. So that'd animal agriculture. Wildlife is a big huge one too, because of course people are hunting them, people are fishing them, people are going out and killing seals. I just dealt with a situation on Sydney Island, which is just off the coast of Vancouver Island.

and they have deer on that island. Half of the island is a Parks Canada sanctuary, the other, no, 20 % is Parks Canada sanctuary, 80 % is where they have private condominiums there, and there are deer on there. Blacktails, which are native, and fallow deer, which are not. the Parks Canada plan to slaughter all of them. Just go in and hire the company, put up fencing, chase them into fencing, shoot them, use helicopters, get dogs in there.

so we got that stop, but that's just one little, one tiny little activity. you, you multiply that across Canada and wildlife is really impacted not only by the environment, but also by, by people's activities around them. And so we have a situation in Toronto, as you probably know, where a group of four coyotes have moved into a very densely populated area. And now that

Some of the residents there want them killed. And so we'll see how that unfolds. But we have to begin to learn to live with wildlife. Otherwise, we're not going to have those animals to see if we want to. And they enrich the environment just the way much more than we do. take away from the environment. They enrich the environment. So those are some of the cases that we've done.

and are interested in and also the other big one is animals and research. So that's a biggie. It is virtually impossible to get any information other than aggregate numbers about what goes on in research laboratories. And the Ontario government has an Animals for Research Act and it is not exempt from the freedom of information. So I've done a pile of freedom of information.

And I can tell you on the inspection reports. So the chief veterinarian inspects research labs each year. I don't know whether they do all in the year. Nobody will tell me. But the ones that I've seen, a lot of them are in non-compliance with the Animals for Research Act. And things like animals that they did surgery on being left on a table with nobody watching.

things, they had a monkey, I can't remember what species the monkey was, but it has MRSA. And so what do you do with that monkey? So they've kind of put the, according to this particular report, they had put the monkey in a closet and left this animal with no stimulation in a tiny little cage. And you you look at that and you think, I don't think that's right. And I think you should, you know,

shine a light on what you're doing and figure out how to do this stuff better. And in fact, a lot of people are working on non-animal alternatives. That applied to the cosmetic ban that we won in June, 2023. So you can't import, you can't do any animal testing in Canada and you can't import any products or test of animals sent to Canada. So it's a really good piece of legislation, but the alternatives that are being developed to go far beyond the cosmetic industry. So.

I think we're going to see a decline in the numbers of animals used in research, there is a approach. There's a mental idea that from research is that you have to use animals in order to get good results. And what they found in cosmetics, using animals doesn't give you, because every animal is different and may react differently to whatever you're doing to that animal. you're...

you can get a much faster and much more reliable result out of a non-animal alternative that has been approved for use. And so when I went to one of the big seminars on non-animal alternatives in Niagara Falls a couple of years ago, I was utterly surprised at the number of companies that were there.

Dr. Cliff Redford (36:00)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Liz White, Animal Protection (36:16)

that we're looking for non-animal alternatives because they can do it cheaper and more reliably. So very interesting stuff.

Dr. Cliff Redford (36:26)

Yeah, and it would be a no brainer, like even the most avid meat eating hunter.

If they, if they saw a photo or video of the rabbit getting something caustic put into their eyes to see how damaging the eyes are, they would just say, this is horrible. Like they would argue and understandably, and they would have some value to their argument that, okay, I'm hunting. I'm, I'm a good shot. That animal does not, you know, feels pain for a split second. And then I'm going to eat it, et cetera, et cetera.

There is no reason why we need to do this anymore. We have enough shampoos. We have enough lipstick and rouge. We're all beautiful enough. Like what? Like give me a break. We are all, even if we just took out cosmetics for animals being used in research, it would be quite overwhelming. I mean, I don't know if it still happens. It probably still does, but.

Liz White, Animal Protection (37:10)

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (37:26)

I was in vet school and shortly after graduating in the late nineties and early two thousands when beagles were being bred for research and you'd have these bred for research beagles over at, I think it was Knott's laboratory. And I apologize Knott's if that's not the right laboratory, but like you'd tell people about this and just the color would drain out of their face and.

then I'd have to explain to them because I'm sometimes a little too forward for my own good. Well, you know, yes, it's horrible this happens to these beagles, but I could list off 20 different species of animals just as cute and fluffy, not that that's what's important as these beagles where this is happening elsewhere. And we're not talking about cancer treatment research or, and again, there are ways to do it now without.

utilizing animals, but, we're talking about cosmetics and, know, certain foods and industrial lubricants or like just the most ridiculous things in the world. And, and it would be so if, if anybody, like, if you just stuck a photo of an animal on a, on a bottle of shampoo, that would change people's instantly. They would instantly pay an extra dollar.

for that other shampoo instantly. It'd be so easy. Yeah, but no one has the guts other than maybe you guys to make this happen. It's gonna take a lot of political pressure for sure. So I do want to...

Liz White, Animal Protection (38:53)

Yeah. Yeah.

Hahaha.

You know what people don't, what people don't,

sorry, go ahead.

Dr. Cliff Redford (39:10)

No, go ahead, please.

Liz White, Animal Protection (39:11)

What people don't know, which is quite shocking, is that in Ontario we've set up pounds in municipalities to take in lost, abandoned, you know, animals, dogs and cats mostly. And the Animals for Research Act allows the research facilities to get some of those animals for research, so people's pets.

And in fact, they amended in 2014 the way in which researchers can get animals. And they can go into municipalities that don't have bylaws and pick up dogs and cats and claim them as their own and give them to a research facility.

Dr. Cliff Redford (39:40)

Yeah.

Liz White, Animal Protection (40:01)

So, you know, nobody knows about it because there is nothing on the website about other than the legislation about animals for research in Ontario. But it's, you know, it's in the thousands. And if I were somebody, I couldn't take animal to a pound. I wouldn't trust them. I know that some pounds don't give, have decided that they're not going to give and have been challenged, but they haven't given. So.

Dr. Cliff Redford (40:03)

Right. Yeah.

Yeah.

Liz White, Animal Protection (40:31)

Anyway, another issue.

Dr. Cliff Redford (40:34)

Yeah, yeah. No, it is. is. It would. Well, we could talk about it for hours. It would. It would break people's hearts. You know, the most the person who would be like, I don't really care about, you know, this or that animal. It would break their hearts if they truly saw what's they would even say, there's got to be a better way. You know, there's got to be a better way. Like, you know, farming, most people who

are okay with farming and animal agriculture, if they stepped into and saw what a factory farming situation was for just your average cattle, your average meat steer, it would blow their minds, you know? Or, you know, I remember in university, the animal rights activists, they would essentially lock themselves in veal calf pens.

just to make a point and it was a shocking point. I did not grow up in farm country and I was focusing on cats and dogs. I wasn't that naive, but it was still a shocking point to see. Now I've never eaten veal, I will never eat veal, I'm a vegetarian, but even when I wasn't, I didn't eat pork because I knew how smart they were, like all these things. So I've slowly evolved, I guess, or slowly changed.

But yeah, people would be horrified if they found out how things are. So they don't even have to agree 100 % with your, yours and your party's opinions and goals, but they can all agree that things can get better. Better for the animals, better for the environment, better for our economy, better for us, et cetera, et cetera. yeah, it's a long, maybe next time, yeah.

Liz White, Animal Protection (42:23)

You want to be candidate?

Dr. Cliff Redford (42:29)

Maybe next time is, I would assume it's too late now, right? When is the election? Two weeks from tomorrow? Yeah, it's too late now. It's too late now. You never know. I ran for municipal council in Markham. I didn't win, but it was a wonderful experience. And the person who did win, she's doing a wonderful job. yeah, maybe. You got me thinking. You got me thinking. We'll see. We'll see.

Liz White, Animal Protection (42:29)

you

Yeah, it's too late now.

Ha ha!

Dr. Cliff Redford (42:58)

We will see. I definitely got time on my hands maybe. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. Again, I had all this stuff I want to talk to you about indigenous rights and what the future holds and whatnot, but I'm trying to keep this at around 30 minutes. I will definitely have you back on, Liz. I've really, really enjoyed this, especially as...

Liz White, Animal Protection (43:18)

Yeah.

Okay. Great.

Dr. Cliff Redford (43:27)

events happen that are sort of environment or animal rights focus. I'd love to have you on to talk about those specific those specific moments. But this has been this has been a wonderful chat. And again, I got to thank my father. He he brought it up and I said, I'm going to reach out to her. And now I'm reaching out to all the party leaders and some of them have replied and said, yes, we would like to talk to you.

Liz White, Animal Protection (43:48)

Great.

Dr. Cliff Redford (43:52)

So this has been, you've been the first, were patient zero and I appreciate that very, very much. How can people, how can my listeners find out about you and your party, know, maybe donate, support, where are you guys most active?

Liz White, Animal Protection (43:56)

That's good, thank you.

Yep.

Just go to animalprotectionparty.ca. It will pull up the party webpage and on it is you can click on icons, a platform, you know, where to donate or find out more, all that sort of stuff. yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (44:26)

Perfect, perfect. And I'll add that to my little info thing at the bottom of the summary for the podcast. And you have a handful of candidates, so I can list the writings that they're in. But again, this is something where you do not have to be in the writing to at least express some support and help out. every little bit helps, and we can make our world a little bit better for us and for...

the animals and for each other and it's a wonderful thing that you're doing. Thank you very very much.

Liz White, Animal Protection (44:58)

Thank

you. Have a great day.