Ryan Woodruff - Clear Path For Veterans.

In this conversation, Dr. Cliff Redford interviews Ryan Woodruff from Clear Path for Veterans, a nonprofit organization dedicated to supporting veterans and their families through various programs, including the use of service dogs. Ryan shares his personal journey from military service to his role in the organization, highlighting the importance of meeting veterans' unique needs and the transformative power of service dogs. 

To learn more about Clear Path For Vets, and to donate, check out https://www.clearpath4vets.com/

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Listener questions, episode suggestions, or if you have a good idea for a guest, email me at dr.redford@vet905.com
Additional information can be found at drcliff.ca

Transcript

Dr. Cliff Redford (00:08)

Hey everyone, welcome back to the show. ⁓ I'm really excited about this guest, Mr. Ryan Woodruff from Clear Path for Veterans. ⁓ Ryan, why don't you tell us first about your organization and the things that you do with them and we'll go from there.

Ryan Woodruff (00:25)

Sure. So Clear Path for Veterans is a nonprofit located in central New York. And what we do is offer programs and services at no cost to veterans and their families. And it's a wide variety of programs. So it's not just one thing. But it's really about meeting the veteran where they're at and identifying some of their unique challenges and then matching them up to the right program that's going to help them overcome those challenges.

Dr. Cliff Redford (00:49)

Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely needed and appreciated for sure. And then you're, you're specifically involved in the program involving therapy dogs, correct?

Ryan Woodruff (00:59)

Service dogs, yeah. So back when I started at Clear Path, I was there for a little over a year serving as a peer mentor. And what that means is I was helping other veterans navigate their transition from military service. Having done that myself, I wouldn't say successfully, but I ⁓ was doing pretty well at the time. And really my job was to connect with these other veterans all across New York and connect them with different resources, everything from employment to education.

⁓ and, other various things, but all the while I learned about this canine program offered a clear path and I was keenly interested as a, as a participant. So I didn't actually formally become a staffer of the canine program until I went through it personally. And having experienced that it sparked something in me that had a passion for, for dogs, for training and for helping other veterans.

with this life-changing service. So yes, I was the director of that program for about seven years, but started from the ground, didn't know a whole lot about animal behavior or anything until I became a member of the staff and started to formalize the training. it's been an incredible journey.

Dr. Cliff Redford (02:20)

Yeah, some of it's probably helped you become closer to these animals, just learning how to teach them and work with them and then handing them off to other veterans that can benefit from them.

Ryan Woodruff (02:32)

100%. And I've found that it truly takes a village in a lot of, and I do my best not to apply the human characteristics to our dogs. But when you look at all of the dimensions of wellness within ourselves and the things that we try to optimize in order to be our best selves, we also apply that to the dogs as well. So when it comes to veterinary health, we have a wellness advisory board of certified veterinarians that help us.

best understand the direction we should take with health management, the routine exams, what we should be doing on a daily basis in terms of just doing cursory exams, what kind of food we should be feeding them, preventatives, vaccines, ⁓ what to do when X happens, which X, Y, Z and so on happens often. I guess my best way to explain that is it takes a village and we look at

Health professionals from across the spectrum, everything from physical, fitness, dental, and so on. And then when it comes to training, we do our best to find trainers that are in it for the right reasons and really looking at the dog and taking into account animal welfare beyond all else. And then ensuring that they have the right educational background to apply the concepts and methods and theories that we want to apply to ensure the dog can be successful.

Dr. Cliff Redford (04:02)

Yeah. And if you don't mind, what, ⁓ can we talk about how you got into military life and, sort of the benefits that you received once you got out?

Ryan Woodruff (04:11)

Yeah, I knew I was going to be in the Marine Corps as far back as I can remember. That was the early childhood vision I had for myself. ⁓ And that's just the trajectory that I wanted to follow. And what I could say about that is I was never in one place for a long enough period of time to establish a core group or a community. And so I think my affinity for the military grew out of that in some ways.

And when I joined in 2005, and that was at the height of Operation Iraqi Freedom, I enlisted as an infantry rifleman. And so with that, I knew full well that I would be deploying to Iraq very shortly after. And I did, I deployed to Iraq in 2006 and did a seven month deployment. It was a tough deployment. know, we went into an understanding that we were going to see combat. We had a specific mission to mitigate the...

Threat in the area of operations that we would be serving in. so a lot of IED, small arms fire, sniper fire, and we didn't return home with everybody that we left with. And I was 19 years old at the time and as a formative part of my life. And that was not something that I would say mentally or emotionally I was prepared to handle in the moment. So what I often tell people is.

You know, in the immediate, it's you're trained to do this, you have this job, but your brain hasn't developed in such a way where you're, or you're never in one place at any given time long enough to really wrestle with what those experiences were like. And so it, took me decades. Well, it took me about a decade to kind of figure that out and go through a process of grief, stress, and, you know, trying to find my own place in the world. Attaching myself to coping mechanisms that weren't the healthiest things.

so military, did two deployments, one right after the other. And after surviving both of those deployments and learning, really realizing how close it came to not coming home and, ⁓ just kind of thinking about what the world had to offer. ⁓ I really decided at that point that I had done enough of this. I'm ready to end my term honorably and go see what else I can do in the world.

Dr. Cliff Redford (06:35)

What do you think? I mean, it's great. The work that you guys do for veterans and their families after the fact. What is there something that could be done prior? Like while you're 19 years old, you're heading to a war zone. Other than going through a basic training and sort of having these buddies by your side, there's got to be something, if you were able to, what kind of sort of service could be available prior? there anything that could be done?

Ryan Woodruff (07:06)

Thought a lot about this and the Marine Corps has been around for over 250 years and their focus is combat effectiveness. So when they're sending these young adults out into a war zone to do a specific job, they establish these guard rails around that to just be narrowly or myopically focused on the mission. in my understanding, I mean, it makes sense. I get it. They're not thinking of life after that. Sure. Complete the mission.

They're after you, when you're leaving the theater of war, they'll implement certain clinical surveys to just check, how are you doing? But the culture in the military dissuades from answering truthfully on all of that because everybody says, if you tell them you're having nightmares or you can't sleep or you've experienced things that just aren't normal, which we all do, you're gonna either get medically separated from the military or go through a series of medical appointments that are

just going to detract from the progress you're trying to make while you're serving. And you don't want to get labeled prematurely so that when you get out that you can't find a job. ⁓ So it's really, it's an interesting paradigm to be stuck in. So, but you know, when, when that decision is made, yes, I want to, I did my term successfully. I'm ready to join the civilian world. There certainly could be a ton of work done. Everything from.

Vocational training to just connecting with local community groups. So the peer mentoring we do, it would be great if we had veterans connecting with active service members 12 months prior to their end of active service. Cause then they can start really thinking about mapping out what that plan looks like for them when they get out of the military. Cause plans don't always work out. That was certainly my story. mean, I had, I had.

a vision of becoming a law enforcement officer, because those are the skills I had developed while serving in the military. I didn't think anything else would translate to manufacturing or natural resources or so on and so on. And it just didn't work out like that for me. So I had to pivot. ⁓ The nice thing about them, not so nice, but adversity builds character and it also builds a certain level of resilience that you can be adaptable to whatever situation.

It doesn't carry with everybody, but I will say veterans and people at large that have had to go through hard times and periods of discomfort, usually if they can make it out on the other end, they're a lot better for it. And that's, you know, that's been the case for me. There's still a long way ahead, a lot more growth that I'm searching for. However, ⁓ being patient with the process and receiving of whatever the situation you're encountering, discomfort or otherwise.

what that may potentially do for you has been something I've been trying to live my life by.

Dr. Cliff Redford (10:04)

Yeah, and being receiving of the help that's out there as well and asking for it and putting your heart into trying to get better or trying to make those changes. How did you, you you sort of hinted that you had some trouble coping and you had some coping mechanisms that weren't that healthy, ⁓ especially because you were in your earlier mid-20s when all this started to happen. mean, heck, the average mid-20 year old is making choices that aren't the healthiest.

Ryan Woodruff (10:07)

Yeah, for sure.

Dr. Cliff Redford (10:33)

as well how did you come across path for veterans

Ryan Woodruff (10:43)

So it was an accident for sure. ⁓ again, like, yeah, the transition was hard. I fell into alcoholism in a big way for a very long time. And to cope with the things that I experienced, you you never, as an alcoholic, you don't say to yourself, I have a problem. It's just becomes a part of a reflexive routine and it's something that you do.

And for me, you know, now I can look back and realize that I was engaged in that type of behavior because I was just uncomfortable with who I was in my own skin. And the only way for me to find any semblance of joy was to feel different. And, you know, after going through a period of sobriety and trying to figure out who I actually was and what my identity was, it was hard to kind of recreate my persona. I credit a lot of that to Clear Path for sure. So.

When I got out, again, tried to become a law enforcement officer, didn't work out for me. I went to school for natural resources, ended up as an arborist for about six years. Loved the work. really, a lot of it did translate to working with a small team, similar to the military, really difficult work. It was continuing to physically damage my body for sure. I mean, I was getting MRIs at the age of 26 and they were telling me my spine looks like something they would see when I'm 70.

And so I was like, I gotta, I gotta make a change. This isn't a forever job for me. So a friend of mine who was working at ClearPath, he had been running their employment program and he said, hey, we're looking for a guy just like yourself that can be a peer mentor, help other veterans connect with a veteran with lived in experience on the outside to get them where they're going. And I immediately gravitated towards that. was like a, you know, it like a glimmer of hope outside of the,

position that I was currently in, which was a good job, but to do something that had more purpose certainly was sparking something within me. And so I applied and got that job back in 2016 and I've been with the organization since.

Dr. Cliff Redford (12:51)

Beautiful. And then you transition to working with the puppies.

Ryan Woodruff (12:55)

Yeah. So again, so my experience early on in the program, was, it was unique in that the model was very different. The organization was working with shelter dogs and good intentions. ⁓ it was a good mission. Difficult, I will say, to say the least when you, so in my, my case, a veteran with, ⁓ significant symptomatic post-traumatic stress at the time that I engage in this program.

I was matched with a stray dog from the shelter that was there for a very short period before they transitioned to me and then asked to train this dog over an 18 month to 24 month period to help it become a service dog. It's like, you know, I didn't know what I didn't know at the time. So I was like, yeah, for sure. Let's, I can do this. And this dog that I was matched with was a stray from Texas.

a pointy-ear shepherd cross. I don't know exactly what her full breed was, but within six months of training, a couple of things I learned. One was that all the things that I was feeling, ⁓ all the symptoms, my stress, my anxiety was running right down the leash all the time. And this dog fed off of that and she was already a nervy, high arousal breed.

And so she did what she thought was right for that and started to become extremely reactive around people coming close to me and talking to me. And so when you think about that, it's like doing the exact opposite thing that we want a dog to do for a veteran diagnosed with post-traumatic stress. And this realization for me just challenged me to think about what could this program be doing differently to really help.

vets overcome these challenges and be placed with a dog that could be both bulletproof to the environment, calm, and willing to do these specialized tasks to mitigate these symptoms associated with post-traumatic stress, which are all over the place because there's so many comorbidities. So I ended up telling the team at the time, like, this isn't going to work out. This is not going to be, there's no way this dog can be a service dog. I'm not taking this dog out into public. Again,

The benefit there for me was she helped me realize some things within my own character, but also that I love dog training. Like I really gravitated towards this. So I talked to the staff, the leadership at the time, I was like, can you send me to a school? You know, so that I can really learn how to do this the right way. And that just began a separate journey for me. ⁓ Separate from that, I ended up attending a conference down in DC.

for Assistance Dogs International, is a, it's a, organization that is a group of other organizations that come together and establish very high standards in the service dog industry. And when I first walk into this conference room and see all these dogs, mostly labs, Goldens, and a couple of different varieties, they were super well behaved, doing their jobs, bulletproof to this environment. I was like, so there's something missing.

And it's not just the breed, certainly not. There can be success out of training shelter dogs. And I think there's room for that. It has to be done differently. But I had met some colleagues of mine that are still partners with me to this day that were willing to sit with me and talk with me about this program and just offer me some lessons. So mentorship. And they told me that they...

Your keystone variable that you're missing within your program is, the dog. It's you're using the wrong dog for the mission you're trying to accomplish. Genetics, health, temperament, trainability. These are all things you have to think about. And so that began like a three to four year journey of just trying to elevate this program to where it is today.

Dr. Cliff Redford (17:03)

And I was surprised I talking about breeds and, and, finding ones that are suitable service dogs. have this beautiful three and a half, four minute documentary on YouTube and on, on your, your website, clear path for vets, the number four. ⁓ and there's this, you know, they've got these sort of lab crosses and shepherdy looking dogs.

And then there's this giant of a man, ex-marine talking about his PTSD and anxiety. And he's got this little Shih Tzu that is his service dog. So I guess, I mean, this Shih Tzu is not opening any doors or, or, you know, doing physical ⁓ work, but sometimes you just need a cuddle buddy who recognizes your, your, when you're having a tough time.

Ryan Woodruff (17:53)

Yeah, for sure. And he's a legacy graduate. So from the model in which I was describing from before, ⁓ don't have any restrictions in terms of what breed can go through our program, but we do hold them to the same criteria. I didn't get this to this part before, but we started a puppy development program after I had these experiences at this conference. And to look at some of the...

the considerations that I mentioned in terms of the dogs that we were selecting for the program. So we started to partner with breeders all over the country, pursue accreditation with ADI, eventually leading us to become accredited with ADI to participate in an international breeding cooperative. And really, so I have opinions on this, but they are certainly trying to create the super dog for service dog work, assistance dog work in the ADI industry.

I think there is a part of which there's danger in trying to play God with creating a super dog because we're seeing some diminishing returns with health and things like that. And you just, it's something to be mindful of. But yeah, this, this particular veteran that graduated did have a Shih Tzu and this was back in 2017 and the dog did all the things he needed him to do. And with mental health, you know, with a task that are, we train these dogs to perform.

They're really dependent on the individual on the other end of the leash, right? So we use a licensed clinical social worker to do an in-depth interview to figure out what is exactly are you experiencing when you're feeling moments of hypervigilance or panic attacks or stress? What are the precursors leading up to that that are going to predispose whatever that event is? And if we can form a picture out of that.

We can then train the dog to perform a task based on whatever that picture is. But it's very much a one size fits one approach because you can't just take 40 dogs, train them all the same task and then say, well, this is your service dog in a box. Every veteran will benefit from this. It's impossible because people coming into the program have so many different varieties of post-traumatic stress and traumatic brain injury.

that we really have to tailor the training to that specific individual going through the program. But as long as we can train the dog to do those tasks and then respond 90 % of the time, both in a training environment and then in a public access environment, and they can meet the health credential, the health standards, the training standards, the public access standards, and all of the certain tests we put them through, then we'll graduate them just the same. The bar.

continues to raise every year, I'll be honest. mean, we, we learn more and more, ⁓ the industry's growing. And for us to say, yes, this dog graduated, they are, they are legally allowed to attend wherever the general public is allowed to attend. That says a lot. And so when you're putting a dog out there to do that, that means you're saying they can go on planes. They can go to sporting events, concerts, the mall, the grocery store, wherever it is, their handler is going to go perform these tasks.

and ⁓ not be something that impedes on a general course of business for any public establishment. And so that was something with growth that we really had to take into account.

Dr. Cliff Redford (21:22)

Yeah, yeah. What, ⁓ can you walk me through the process? Like you get puppies at a certain age and do they stay with, with your facility or are they with a foster family? How does this whole thing work? And then how long does it take for them to pass?

Ryan Woodruff (21:40)

Yeah, working from the beginning, we do have a pilot breeding program that we've just started this year. So I view training as something that happens immediately. Not just when the dogs are on the ground, but even when the mother's pregnant, there's things that you can do and different sensories that you can introduce to help stimulate the brain chemistry for the puppies that are going to eventually be in training for service. I can't speak to that intuitively because there's so much science behind it. We just rely on the people that help coach us along.

However, ⁓ as soon as these puppies are born, really, we do everything we can to set them up to be successful for the long-term trajectory of service dog training. Not everyone makes it. ⁓ And what I mean by that is not every dog is going to be certified as a service dog in our program. We still have a significant ratio of those that do not, but ⁓ we do use foster families. we have...

upwards around 40 dogs in training right now and at eight weeks old. And this is, this is something I've been wrestling with. just listened to an ethyologist on the Huberman podcast talk about weaning puppies and when the right time to do that is. Right now we do wean them at eight weeks and provide them to a foster family. That foster family participates in training on a weekly basis for almost two years, about 18 months. And.

All the while we're testing them. So at eight weeks, we do a puppy temperament test through ⁓ what's called a BCL behavior checklist. It's part of a international working dog registry testing. And it was originally developed for guide dogs, but then transitioned to service dogs and the assistance dogs and industry at large. It's a, it's an intense test, not intent. If you saw it, it would just look like the dog's walking through a couple obstacles, different sensory items.

⁓ somebody comes in with a novel suit on to see how the dog reacts to it, but we're measuring sensitivity to different sites, sounds, smells, pictures, just to see how the dog naturally interacts. Up until actually last week, we've never what we call career change a dog at eight weeks old. What I mean by career changes, we say that dog is not going to be a service dog because of how it did on this test.

Now last week we had one that was very inhibited by the environment and didn't score well on the test. And we're actually deciding that this dog would be better off serving as a potentially in a pet home. Now there are other careers such as therapy, facility, you know, different type of working dog careers. But this dog will be in training for that 18 month period. We do these tests three times during that period, comparing everything to baselines. Don't see a whole lot of, you know, what we see in the beginning carries forward.

You see a lot of the same things at one year and 18 months. If the dog makes it to 18 months old, we bring them back to our campus for six months. And for that six months, they're assigned to a professional dog trainer that'll work with them every day for that period of time. Really working on refinement, making sure that their skills and obedience are 90 % where they need to be, that they have been.

You know, if they haven't received some level of exposure at this point in time in the public environment, it's way too late. It's not to say that you can't train an old dog, but it takes a lot longer for sure. And so working on some task training and then eventually trying to set up compatibility with a potential veteran that's coming into the program. So that by the time we're bringing the vet in, which is once the dog is two years old.

We have two or three dogs that we can test them with just to ensure that it's a good match. And then they will go forward for about 10 days of intensive training and go back into their communities. It's a lot. I mean, it's a lot to do in two years. It seems like a long time, but in my opinion, two years is pretty quick. A quick turnaround to train a dog from a puppy to being a fully trained service dog that can go anywhere we can.

Dr. Cliff Redford (25:51)

Yeah, they're not, you're not just teaching them to sit, roll over and give a paw or even go get my keys. As I've seen on that, on that little documentary, like this is. You gotta, you gotta test them for, ⁓ encounters that you can't necessarily predict. You know, ⁓ yeah, they gotta be ready for it's like going to the military. You gotta be ready for the unexpected, ⁓ and be able to use your training to react.

Ryan Woodruff (26:10)

100%.

Dr. Cliff Redford (26:21)

appropriately and leave the same thing with these dogs. I imagine it's not this can't be cheap. I mean what's kind of investment is put into these dogs for the two years?

Ryan Woodruff (26:30)

It ranges usually between 25 and $50,000 for every dog that goes through the program. And that, that accounts for everything you can imagine, food, health, wellness, treats, everything that they get, plus the intensive training that they're receiving. And also when the veteran comes in and receives their dog at, no cost, we put them up in a hotel, we cover their food, we cover their travel. So it does it.

costs a lot of money to do this work and the cost isn't getting any cheaper for sure. So, you know, it takes a community of support to help us continue to do this work and we're fortunate to have ⁓ good support from grants, foundations, but also some private donors that are partnering with us to see this through.

Dr. Cliff Redford (27:18)

Yeah. Yeah. And I'll throw up the website, ⁓ on our little info summary, cause there's a, there's a donate section there that you can donate directly to, your, your organization. ⁓ so these, these service dogs, they don't become the veterans pet and do like how, how long. if I were to, to, to start, let's say working, wouldn't say adopt. I'm not adopting the dog. ⁓ if I, if I,

start working with this dog? Does the dog come and live with me? It must, right?

Ryan Woodruff (27:51)

Yeah. So ClearPath does maintain ownership of the dog, but that's, that's in case anything happens that compromises animal welfare, that we have the ability to repossess the dog. However, everything else, I mean, the dog lives with the veteran for their entire working life. They're going with them to work, their doctor's appointments, wherever they're going. It's an adjustment. And I always tell people before you consider getting a service dog, like understand what this all entails. It's, it's a stressful interruption to your life.

Dr. Cliff Redford (27:59)

Okay. Yeah.

Right.

Ryan Woodruff (28:21)

to ultimately help mitigate and mitigate some of your symptoms, but also help you find a dependence. But it is a disruption. It can be difficult. I tell people a lot like manage your expectations. Like it's, it's okay for the dog to be a dog often, right? More often than not, because there's a lot of pressure to working in human environments when dogs just weren't real. mean, they domesticated animals, sure. ⁓

Working dogs have been around for thousands of years. However, it's really important that we look at the dog and we take the ethological considerations into place and give them an environment where they can just be them, be their best selves as a dog as well. So take them on, taking them on leisurely walks or off leash walks or playing frisbee in the lake with them, going on hikes and adventures. That's, I think that's more important.

than having a dog do a fancy heel with you in the mall and doing all the sits down stays and tasking. It's just living with a dog has so many more benefits when there's not a lot of pressure being put down to the military culture, especially because you got to coach these guys like, this is not your subordinate recruit. This is not your, ⁓ you know, whoever you are working with in the military. Exceptions can be made.

They're going to make mistakes as we do too. And it's good to be a little bit forgiving, give some grace to it. Start over as long as, you know, we're not going to place a dog with anybody that's going to be dangerous for sure. ⁓ and we're always available for remedial training, but we emphasize like living with your dog means creating a vision for yourself and your dog that goes outside of just service dog work. Like, do you want to go do a hike every morning with your dog? That's part of growing with.

Dr. Cliff Redford (30:09)

Yeah, yeah.

Ryan Woodruff (30:14)

a dog that I think is so important for pet owners but also service dog owners.

Dr. Cliff Redford (30:18)

Yeah. And, and, and when you say that, like go on a hike or, or take them to an off leash dog park, they're not wearing the vest. They're not on, they're not on, ⁓ on the clock, so to speak. They, they get to sniff and run and goof off and maybe roll in something smelly. ⁓ as long as when you put that vest on, they realize, okay, now it's go time.

Ryan Woodruff (30:29)

Right.

Yeah, we have a command called let's go to work and the dog puts it basically walks into their Cape. The vest goes on and they know that vest has a conditioned response of now I'm working in its service dog time. When the vest goes off, they can be their best selves, you know, and I would say that's in both cases, but they can be a little bit more free. Do the dog thing. And it's important to have that balance just like us, you know, pulling 60, 70 hours a week is not realistic and.

Play is important too. I just did a podcast with a Lego master and he talked about the importance of play. And I was like, yeah, like a hundred percent go play with your dog and get outside of yourself, leave your dignity at the door and just have fun with your dog.

Dr. Cliff Redford (31:26)

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, these dogs, most dogs, they want to make their, their family members, whether it's human or other dogs, they want to make their family members happy. ⁓ and you guys are especially breeding and selecting for dogs that have that, that mindset. I love my job. It is my calling. It is my passion. I, I still have to goof off.

I still have to go boxing. I still have to go surfing. And as much as I love my job, even if everything went great that day and I didn't lose a patient or have a angry client, I come home sometimes stressed out and I need to be able to, ⁓ to, relax and not think about being a veterinarian. It's one of the things I like about living about, ⁓ 15 miles away from my clinic. Now is no one on the street knows that I'm a veterinarian.

because I don't want to be a vet when I'm here. I just want to be, I just want to be a guy, you know, hanging out in his, in his garden, and watching hockey on TV. ⁓ yeah. So it's, it's important for, for, I would imagine for the, the, the mental health of the dog, as well as the, as well as the veteran that they, that they sort of relax every once in a while.

Ryan Woodruff (32:44)

Yeah, I mean, if you look in the mirror and your life's a mess and it's a wreck and you're not doing things like boxing or recreational activity, surfing, ⁓ finding yourself within your community addicted to substances, it's probably the wrong time to get a dog. So we have a pretty strict onboarding process when it comes to finding the balance between needs and readiness is what I tell people. Is there enough need for this person to be justified in getting a service dog and

Dr. Cliff Redford (32:58)

Yeah, yeah.

Ryan Woodruff (33:12)

needing to find something that helps them with their independence and are they ready, which means they've developed some coping mechanisms, they've been through mental health treatment, they have some healthy lifestyle choices that they're making, but there's something missing in their lives that could make it a little bit more fruitful. It's just really important. mean, a book just came out recently, I haven't read it, I think it's called Your Dog, Is You in the Mirror, something like that, I'm interested in reading that. Because it's really important, what you do,

within your own life is transferable to your kids, your spouse, your dogs, your cats, your rabbits, whatever it is for sure.

Dr. Cliff Redford (33:50)

Yeah, I mean, I can, within a certain level of accuracy, I can tell what kind of dog a puppy is going to be just from meeting them at eight weeks old and without even doing, you know, formal, formal testing, just examining it and interacting with it. I can say, especially if it's a, a new pet owner, they've never had a dog before cats are a little different.

They've never had a dog before. And if I see it, this dog's going to be a challenge. I'll, I'll talk to them right away and say, look, your dog's really, really smart and you need to be prepared or your dog automatically. I can tell he's going to need, he or she's going to need additional, uh, exercise and intellectual stimulation, et cetera, et cetera. But I also see a link between the owners and the pets. Um,

just like you would say, you know, the link between the child and the, and the parent, ⁓ you know, I've owned my clinic 25 years. I've, I've, I've known some of my clients I've known when they were children. ⁓ and they seem to get a dog, ⁓ and to a lesser extent, a cat, seem to get a dog that has, it's within a very narrow behavioral spectrum, let's say. And it's, and it's because of the lifestyle that they live.

And maybe the positive and negative energies that they, that they have and the challenges they have in their own lives. So there's definitely a link. ⁓ and I like where you say that, that there has to be a need and a red and a readiness as well, ⁓ from the veterans, because this is not a, this is not a pill. This is not just here, take this and, and, and this dog knows how to, knows how to fix everything in your life. ⁓ you gotta be, you gotta be ready and willing and it's gotta be the right fit.

and you guys have put two years of work and you fifty thousand dollars ⁓ of investment into these animals and you don't give it to the wrong person not only because it's a waste of the of the work the animal can do but also it it takes away from someone else that could benefit more

Ryan Woodruff (35:56)

Yeah, for sure. ⁓

Dr. Cliff Redford (35:58)

That's got,

that's gotta be tough though. Like there are times where you're probably going to have to say, I'm sorry, we can't, you're not ready. We can't help you. Um, and mind you, have other, you have plenty of other support systems within a clear path for vets that, that, that can help those people maybe reach that next level. And then maybe they don't need a dog afterwards.

Ryan Woodruff (36:21)

That's the best case is that we can provide them with supplemental programming and get them to a place in their lives where maybe consideration for a service dog is no longer on the table because they've gotten better. ⁓ there's a lot of novelty to owning a service dog. And I think that it's incumbent on us that we dispel any of the myths. It's just like anything you go through a limerence period of this is great. This relationship that's been going on for eight months. It's wonderful. But you know, eight.

months later to a year, it can get hard and straining and managing and keeping up with the maintenance of the training. It's, it's a 10 to 12 year commitment and we test them every year. So they have to go recertify for another public access test. And by being out in public with a service dog, you're the center of attention. mean, everybody comes up to you and it wants to ask you questions, which is part of why we.

Dr. Cliff Redford (37:02)

Hmm.

Ryan Woodruff (37:16)

We train in place the dogs that we do because it's somewhat of a social lubricant for vets that kind of want to isolate. This goes against that because people are going to talk to them on a regular basis. The veterinary community is incredible. I have so much respect for the veterinarians that we're working with. They've been with me for over 10 years now and they've formed a protective circle around our program and really are going the extra mile to make sure that our dogs are healthy, happy and living long lives.

Dr. Cliff Redford (37:23)

Mm-hmm.

Ryan Woodruff (37:46)

We have great relationship with Cornell University and they're all really after the same thing. I think it's just so incredibly important that the, the veterinary community and the dog training community continue to come together to work towards these common causes. Cause you've had your hands on so many dogs that I probably, you probably can't, I've lost count at some point that you do intuitively know things that owners are going to face at some point and to have either access to a trainer.

at your facility or a partnering trainer, I think is incredibly important to set people up for success.

Dr. Cliff Redford (38:19)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's, ⁓ I think it's great what you're doing and it, and you know, I kind of joke on this podcast sometimes that, know, we actually do love animals. Veterinarians do love animals and do love the bond that they have with people, unless you're into say wildlife or, something like that. You're, you're primarily working with a human beside the animal. ⁓ and all the

challenges and wonders that that brings. ⁓ So seeing a program like what you guys are doing, ⁓ just strengthens that love that we have for that human animal bond. We've known, the industry have known for generations and generations how wonderful dogs are, ⁓ and that we probably only scratch the surface on their abilities and how they can make our lives better and we can make their lives better.

so it's wonderful seeing a program like this and, hearing these stories. ⁓ one last question I wanted to have, ⁓ or I had to ask you, and again, it's related to this documentary. There were, there were several scenes where the veteran would cover their eyes as if they're playing peekaboo. And it happened enough times that this is, this is something specific. Is this like a, training technique you guys use?

Ryan Woodruff (39:40)

Yeah, so that's one of the several tasks that we'll train our service dogs perform. And it's, it's a, it's a response that somebody has when they're under emotional distress, they'll usually put their hands on their face. They'll put their elbows on their knees. They'll rest their head down and put their hands on their face. And that cues the dog to immediately interact in some way. Usually it's the dog coming up and, and licking their face or blocking their hands. but.

Yeah, for sure. That was a task for that particular veteran that was in training that he found to be very beneficial. And it's funny. mean, when you're living with these dogs, ⁓ two, I have one service dog downstairs, a puppy in training and a service dog in training. And then I have my personal dog. It's just funny to see what they pick up on. I mean, most pet dogs pick up on things like this too. You know, it can be something as small as playing with your wedding band.

bouncing your knee up and down, ⁓ texting. So I have a Dutch Shepherd and like anytime I pull out my phone, if I'm sitting on the couch, he'll run up and like knock it out of my hand with his nose. I mean, literally the phone flips on the floor. Like I know enough about dogs to where he's like seeking my attention and he's looking for me to engage with them and he knows I disassociate when I look at my phone. So I think that's like amazing.

that this dog naturally figured out like he's on his phone. He's not going to be paying attention to me. I'm going to go get rid of that thing. And then he's going to interact with me and he's been successful. He's figured the equation out. But it's funny.

Dr. Cliff Redford (41:19)

Yep. I've just,

I just mentioned this to my wife a couple of days ago. ⁓ we have this rescue dog from the Arctic North, little Poppy. She's a, a terrier corgi cross a year and a half old. And she's small enough that she like sits on my chest if I'm lying down and almost every single time, if I flopped down on the couch with my head on a pillow and I'm going to play a little video game on my phone or do some texting or just.

You know, doom scroll. ⁓ she's right there on my chest in front of the phone. Like I'm trying to read a book. She's blocking my block and my, my, ⁓ my view. And then she'll stick her wet nose in my ear or in the nape of my neck. And of course, at first I'm like, come on, I want to play this level or I want to, you know, I just got to check something. What are you doing? What are you doing? And in the end, it always ends up with me putting the phone down and laughing and her just getting more and more excited.

⁓ and, ⁓ yeah, I guess, you know, not only do you disassociate, but they probably recognize that maybe not all the time, but sometimes social media or the phone creates stress. ⁓ and the stress hormones come out and the dogs just say, I don't like the way dad smells. ⁓ right now they're getting stressed out too often with this thing in their hands. So I'm gonna, I'm going to go in and distract them. ⁓

Ryan Woodruff (42:43)

That's

a really good point that I didn't consider that that could be.

Dr. Cliff Redford (42:46)

that they

recognize it. that they recognize it. And the thing is, if you go to training, like I was talking about this on another buddy's podcast about dogs that eat their poop and how you can sort of discourage them against it. dogs, if you have a reward system, if you give them a reward every single time, it is not as effective in teaching that behavior as if you give them intermittent rewards.

That's why casinos and slot machines are so successful, unfortunately. So this is a situation where they're getting a reward by calming you down a portion of the time. And it just strengthens the bond. So I'm to have to accept it a lot more now when my dog does it and say, OK, you're right. Thank you. Or I got to go somewhere and hide and shut the door and do it that way. But that's wonderful. I encourage everyone, obviously,

check out the website and donate, but find that little documentary that you guys did. It's really well done. It's really beautiful. And I mean, we could go on and on. It's so powerful, the connection that these veterinarian veterans have with their service animals and the work that you guys do is so unbelievably amazing.

Ryan Woodruff (44:03)

Thank you so much. I appreciate the conversation. This has been incredible.

Dr. Cliff Redford (44:07)

That's been a lot of fun. can listeners find out more about your group?

Ryan Woodruff (44:12)

The website's a good place to start. So www.ClearPathForVets.org. You can get there with the number four or the word four. We're on Instagram, LinkedIn, ⁓ YouTube, Facebook, all the social media platforms. So, and you can always call the office too. And if you, if you need to speak to me, just ask for me and I'd be happy to take your calls.

Dr. Cliff Redford (44:20)

Yeah.

little bit of everything.

Yeah. And if there's, know, for the veterans out there and the families of veterans out there that, that needs some help or support, you guys do so much more than air quotes, just, ⁓ service dogs. ⁓ there's a lot of, there's a lot of help out there for the people that have risked their lives for, for the country that they live in. And we all appreciate you guys so much.

Ryan Woodruff (44:53)

Thank you so much.