Post Achievement Depression.

In this conversation, Dr. Cliff Redford discusses the complexities of fulfillment and the phenomenon of post-achievement depression, often referred to as arrival fallacy. He reflects on the experiences of professional athletes, particularly golfer Scotty Scheffler, who, despite achieving great success, questions the meaning and satisfaction derived from these accomplishments. The discussion delves into the importance of setting goals, the journey towards achieving them, and the need for personal growth and fulfillment beyond mere achievements. The conversation emphasizes the significance of enjoying the process and finding joy in life outside of professional success.

For those who want to reach Sarah Lo, Registered Psychotherapist, MA, you can find her at https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/therapists/sarah-lo-etobicoke-on/1269356

First, if you haven't watched my film and live in Canada (or have one of those VPN things), you can watch it here:

https://youtu.be/oMUx3yuyznc?si=oagpg7bGnpbuyXlJ

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Transcript

Dr. Cliff Redford (00:00)

You're like, why do I want to win this tournament so bad? That's something that I wrestle with on a daily basis. It's like showing up at the Masters every year. It's like, why do I want to win this golf tournament so badly? Why do I want to win the Open Championship so badly?

I don't know because if I win, it's going be awesome for about two minutes. And then we're going to get to the next week and it's going to be like, hey, you won two majors this year. How important is it for you to win the FedEx Cup playoffs? And it's just like, we're back here again, you know? So we really do. We work so hard for such little moments. And you know, I'm kind of a sicko. I love putting in the work. I love being able to practice. I love getting out to live out my dreams. But at end of the day, sometimes I just don't understand the point, you know, because.

Dr. Cliff Redford (00:49)

Hey everyone. Welcome to that life with Dr. Cliff. ⁓ I'm Dr. Cliff and that was Scotty Scheffler, a PGA pro golfer. I heard this clip on a radio show, ⁓ shout out to Ben Mulrooney. He doesn't listen to this podcast, but maybe one day he will. And then they'll hear this and he'll go, Hey, I remember that, that episode. And he was talking about this, this quote, this press conference from

from Scotty and it really got me thinking about why we pursue dreams, what we're hoping to get out of it ⁓ and what happens when we finally achieve them. Now I'm still in the first of that trifecta of questions, I'm still chasing dreams, 52 years old, still chasing dreams. I guess that's good, right? You never wanna, you never wanna.

finally reach that summit. Maybe you reach the summit, you enjoy it for a while, and then you find a new summit to achieve. That's what Beau, that's what Beau's thinking right now. ⁓ Yeah, so why do we want these things so badly? first of all, Scotty Scheffler, this guy's a dude. He's currently ranked number one in the world out of pro golfers.

And he's been number one for 100 weeks. So for two years, basically. And he's only 29 years old. ⁓ So maybe that's the problem. Maybe he's, achieved his dream so, so quickly. ⁓ And I remember it was one of the Williams sisters, Serena Ravines. ⁓ And I think she had won her first.

Grand Slam tournament or whatever it's called in tennis. One of the, there's like the four of them. There's the US Open, Wimbledon. I don't know the other ones, Australian Open, ⁓ French Open. I think it's French Open. And she'd won whatever it was. She'd won her first ever. And she started talking about in her interview about how she'd been working on this her whole life. And some people laughed because she was young. But.

But to her, it was still her whole life, right? It was something she'd been chasing. Anyways, this guy, Scott, he is 29 years old, won four major championships. He won as an amateur junior, won a whole bunch of championships there, PGA Rookie of the Year, even in 2024, a gold medal at the Summer Olympics. So this guy has achieved so, so much. I did a little bit of Googling into him.

He just now has a family, him and his wife ⁓ welcomed their new baby boy a year ago, May of 2024. ⁓ And maybe this is what's changed his perspective. Maybe he's always had this thought ⁓ as he's been, as he's been chasing this, these various dreams. And I mean, you can't get much better than number one in the world, other than keeping it for even longer and making, you know, breaking various records. But.

Maybe that's the situation is maybe, you know, the point is to achieve those goals and then be able to share it with people in your family. So hopefully, hopefully he's gonna start to see a shift in his dream and hopefully he's gonna stay satisfied. Here's another great little quote in the same press conference from him.

Dr. Cliff Redford (04:30)

you know, I think I said something after the Byron this year about like,

It feels like you work your whole life to celebrate winning a tournament for like a few minutes. It only lasts a few minutes, that kind of euphoric feeling. like to win the Byron Nelson Championship at home, I literally worked my entire life to become good at golf, to have an opportunity to win that tournament. And you win it, you celebrate, get to hug my family, my sisters there. It's such an amazing moment. And then it's like, okay, now what are we gonna eat for dinner? Life goes on.

Is it great to be able to win tournaments and to accomplish the things I have in the game of golf yet? I mean it brings tears to eyes just to think about because it's literally worked my entire life to become good at the sport and to have that kind of sense of accomplishment I think is a pretty cool feeling. You know, to get to live out your dreams is very special. But at end of the day, it's like I'm not out here to inspire the next generation of golfers. I'm not here to inspire somebody else to be the best player in the world because what's the point? You know, this is not a fulfilling

It's fulfilling from a sense of accomplishment, but it's not fulfilling from a sense of like the deepest, you know, places of your heart. You know, there's a lot of people that make it to what they thought was going to fulfill them in life, and then you get there and all of a sudden you get to number one in the world, and then they're like, what's the point?

Dr. Cliff Redford (05:56)

There you go. think, ⁓ I think his, I think his dream's changing. think his priorities are changing. ⁓ kids, kids do that to you, man. They, they put life in perspective and, and, you know, I think, ⁓ I mean, I don't know this guy, don't follow golf. but I think, ⁓ when you're as young as him.

Your dreams of a young man, the dreams of a young person, a teenager, ⁓ less than a teenager, ⁓ and the dreams of a 20 something year old ⁓ are very important to them. But whether they achieve that dream or not, things change. Your life changes and your priorities change and it's okay when you're 20 years old.

and to be selfish, especially if you're not married and you're not, obviously, if you're not married and you don't have children. If you do, you can't be selfish. You gotta think about your family, but it's okay to be more self-involved when you're that young. ⁓ So you can have these dreams that eventually, possibly are a little bit shallow ⁓ in the sense of there's nothing shallow about wanting to be the best.

the best you can be and be number one in the world. It's pretty amazing at golf, at singing, at writing, at whatever, Sudoku, know, whatever. ⁓ But, you know, I think once you achieve it and you get the money and the fame and you don't necessarily need the money anymore and the fame starts to die away and who cares if you're famous when you've got a

a spouse and in his case a wife and now a child, that child's going to see him as just dad. He's not going to be ⁓ fanboying over him years later. He's going to think he's the strongest as every son thinks their dad is the strongest and maybe think he's the smartest. I certainly thought my dad was the smartest. He's certainly one of the smartest people I know. ⁓ He is going to be coming up in this episode soon.

dad's no best. ⁓ but yeah, things, things change. ⁓ I did a little bit of Googling again and, and I learned about this thing called post-achievement depression or arrival fallacy. it's a surprisingly common feeling to feel dissatisfied or unhappy even after achieving a long held dream or goal. ⁓ and it occurs because the anticipation and pursuit of the goal often generates more excitement.

and a sense of purpose than the actual attainment. It's that whole saying, it's not about the destination, it's about the journey. And that's definitely true. And then it goes on to talk about several factors that can contribute to this feeling. Dopamine's role, the brain releases dopamine, a neurotransmitter, associated with pleasure and reward. And during the pursuit of the goal, this dopamine builds up.

Once the goal is achieved, the dopamine rush subsides and you kind of get this feeling of emptiness. ⁓ Shifting identity. Your identity might have been heavily tied to the pursuit of the goal and once achieved, you may need to redefine your sense of self and purpose. Or maybe your identity changes because of a major change in your life, like that happened with Scottie Scheffler and having a child and being married. ⁓

unrealistic expectations. Sometimes the reality of achieving the dream doesn't quite match the idealized version we envisioned. This can lead to disappointment and a sense of is this it? I think that's a big one. I don't know. I don't think it's a big one for Scotty, but I think a lot of people have this this ⁓ dream of whatever being famous.

And being rich and at least the famous part, they get there and they go, is this okay? Everybody knows me and people wave at me, but it actually gets annoying. Sometimes I can't have my privacy or if you're rich and you're rich without people to share it with, what's, what's the big deal? ⁓ you know, you can just show off that you have a fancy car. ⁓ so think that's probably, ⁓ probably a big part of.

Arrival fallacy again, not necessarily with this guy, Scotty. ⁓ Neglecting the journey. This is, this is a big one. The focus on the end goal might've caused you to neglect the enjoyment of the process itself, leaving you with a void when the journey is over. You know, my dream was this TV show thing and, and it looks like the dream is almost over. I haven't given up. There's still a few little things I'm trying to hustle to put together.

⁓ but I do recognize how blessed I am to be able to travel around the world and film some great content and the memories I have, especially with my daughter, since she, she had so many of these trips with me. ⁓ not only do we have these great memories, but we have them on film. have them not on film, but we have them recorded. We have them digitally on film. and, and we have this great, this great documentary, this award winning documentary. ⁓

that everyone can check out on YouTube. If you're in Canada, tv.org, Dr. Gluver worldwide vet, just check it out. ⁓ eventually it's coming to everybody, but, ⁓ I'm super proud of it. And, and yeah, I wish more people get to see it I, and I wish it paid some of the bills. ⁓ but I went into this knowing that that wasn't going to happen. So I guess my, my, our knowing that it might not happen. And so I guess my expectations were pretty realistic. ⁓ but. ⁓

I have sat back many times on this journey and really took in what was happening. ⁓ I remember so many moments so vividly and not just the exciting moments and being, you know, in Greece and India and Egypt and Ukraine and how can I forget that? But even some of the times working on the editing and selecting the music and

writing in my journal and then being able to relive it when I wrote the book ⁓ and are currently editing the book. So there's all these things that are reminding me and I'm really enjoying the journey and while it may not end up the way I envisioned it, my dream has ⁓ changed its identity a little bit. ⁓ And then they also talk about as far as this arrival fallacy, ⁓ lack

of new goals without new goals to pursue life can feel stagnant leading to a sense of purposefulness purposelessness sorry, purposelessness. ⁓ And maybe that's what's going on now with Scottie Scheffler is, you know, he's, he's reached pretty high pinnacle. He's going to be in the hall of fame. So now he has, he's got to look at new goals and maybe they're just continue to be golfing related.

⁓ But hopefully he has some goals that are non-golfing related and ones that he can share with his family and his loved ones. ⁓ So then this article goes on to talk about what to do when you feel this way. Acknowledge your feelings. It's okay to feel disappointed after achieving a major goal and just process those emotions. That's where journaling has helped with me for sure. Re-evaluate your goals.

Reflect on why you set the goals in the first place and was it truly aligned with your values and aspirations? Wow, that's a that's a good one. ⁓ yeah, therapy can help, I think. ⁓ set new goals. We kind of talked about that as well. Reigniting your sense of purpose and motivation and then find fulfillment in the present. Focus on enjoying the process of living. Amen. Rather than solely fixating on future.

achievements, seek support, talk to friends, family, a therapist about your feelings. sharing your feelings can always help provide sort of clarity perspective. ⁓ and then practice self care, ⁓ engaging in activities that bring you joy and relaxation, ⁓ like getting punched in the face when you're sparring with your coach. That's at least for me. ⁓ and then it ends it saying, ⁓ ultimately achieving.

A dream is a significant accomplishment, but it's important to remember that happiness and fulfillment come from a variety of sources, not just from reaching specific milestones. ⁓ Amen to that as well. So, ⁓ if you guys are chasing your dream, think about these things. ⁓ You know, be weary of what is it called? A rival fallacy or post-achievement depression.

⁓ and, ⁓ and hopefully you're going to enjoy the, ⁓ the journey as much as maybe even more than the destination, but hopefully you're going to enjoy the destination as well. And then you're going to find a new summit to, ⁓ to chase. with that, got one last, great clip from Scotty Scheffler. It's a deep one. ⁓ and then stay tuned for, ⁓ some, some, I guess, surprise guests. So I at least.

let one of them out of the bag. we're going to go on and talk more about this phenomenon of arrival fallacy ⁓ or post-achievement depression. Stay tuned.

Dr. Cliff Redford (15:55)

trying to say is this is not this is not the place to look for your satisfaction this is something that's where you can have a great appreciation for and a great ⁓

like a great amount of thankfulness for being able to do this. it's, mean, like I said, it's literally one of the most fun things that I can do in my entire life. I love being able to come out here and play golf and compete, but at end of the day, it's just not what satisfies me.

R odd (16:28)

⁓ I see you.

Dr. Cliff Redford (16:30)

Hey, there you are. Wow. No, it takes a little bit of work. ⁓ I guess it's just because you're using a different computer and that's all right. ⁓ Yeah, it worked out. appreciate it. I'll get you back to the family quick.

R odd (16:32)

We're here. This wasn't easy.

Well,

I was going through ⁓ the other day or two weeks ago, clearing some junk off my phone. I came across an app said Riverside. And I thought, how did I get that? Is that Riverside Church that we went to in New York City? And I deleted it. Yeah, got it back, got it back.

Dr. Cliff Redford (17:04)

Ha

no, there you go, got it back.

It has been a while since we've done this. So we got to do it semi-regularly. It's nice, everyone likes it. So you're in Huntsville right now, you're up in Muskoka. ⁓ Do you enjoy stay with Lindsay and Jeremy and the kids or do you do it next door?

R odd (17:32)

⁓ We're staying with Lindsay and Jeremy, but they're leaving. They've delayed their departure until Tuesday morning for the East Coast. So we're staying with Greg Charlie, making sure he gets up, puts away his phone, gets into work. He's got a job washing dishes and floors, place in Huntsville. And they have a cafe.

Dr. Cliff Redford (17:41)

okay. Okay, gotcha.

Ha ha ha ha

⁓ nice.

R odd (18:01)

on this co-op. Anyway, he's got a job and it was five days a week, three hours each, but they're short of money. It's a co-op and they cut everybody's hours and he's down to three days a week, three hours each time. So yeah, so we're going to enjoy the lake and going out for rides, me and hang out with him and make sure he gets to work each day.

Dr. Cliff Redford (18:07)

Right.

Right. Still though.

Right, right.

How old is GC? 15. That's a good job for a 15 year old. I mean, 10 hours a week, that's cool. And I mean, he's in God's country for the summer. Like there's a lot of fun stuff he can do. So yeah, I know, but it's a little different depending on the time of year, but did they tell you that Wellington Vet Hospital is renting their cottage? ⁓

R odd (18:29)

15, he's a year younger than James.

Yes. Yeah.

He's here all year.

Wait,

I think you told me, somebody told me, two weekends. Yeah. Did you get a family rate?

Dr. Cliff Redford (18:58)

Did I say, ah, there you go. Yeah. For two weekends. It's going to be a,

uh, she offered me the family rate and then I kind of said, no, that's not necessary. Besides, uh, I said, I'm going to need a receipt because this is work. So I think I'm between the family rate and the normal rate. Like it's a little bit more. it's amazing. Like what, what they're offering. I'm super happy. So, uh, there you go.

R odd (19:05)

Ha ha!

Dr. Cliff Redford (19:28)

⁓ it's going to be a lot, it's going to be a lot of fun and the team's super excited.

R odd (19:29)

8.

Dr. Cliff Redford (19:32)

Cash flow is really tight because of cycle bar and because of, you know, multiple mortgages with the place that I got for mom and the money I spent on the film and et cetera, et cetera, but whatever. We are rich in love and dreams.

R odd (19:47)

Yep, You're that's the root.

You are,

you are.

Dr. Cliff Redford (19:54)

Rich in love and

pursuing our dreams is expensive. How's that for a segue into this thing?

R odd (19:58)

Well,

that's often when you're happiest.

Dr. Cliff Redford (20:03)

What's that when you're pursuing it?

R odd (20:04)

when you're pursuing it, when you're working hard.

Dr. Cliff Redford (20:07)

Well, this is it. this, ⁓ you know, this guy, Scotty talked about, you know, feeling unsatisfied and how much he loves what he does and he loves training and he of course is happy when he wins, but then the happiness is gone in a few minutes and, and, and that is not a way to feel satisfied. And, ⁓ I think I started talking, I read this, ⁓ sort of article about, ⁓ a thing called post-achievement depression or

or ⁓ what is the other one? Arrival fallacy is the other name of the phenomenon. it's basically, you know, talks about how your dopamine drops once you reach this goal and sometimes you reach the goal and it's not what you thought it was gonna be. And you also failed to stop and smell the roses while you were reaching that destination, while you were trying to achieve the goal. And a lot of people find that they're happy, they're happiest.

with the attempt, you know, it's not, it's not winning that thing. That is, the biggest thing. It's the, all the memories in between and whatnot. And, and, you know, that was sort of, ⁓ I think that was sort of the takeaway or what is going to be the takeaway. What is like, so you're, you're, you know, you're, you're a trade, your designation is as an accountant. Of course you're retired. Was that like sort of a dream of yours, or was it just.

R odd (21:09)

Yeah.

Yeah?

Dr. Cliff Redford (21:34)

Hey, I'm really good at math and this is a really good job.

R odd (21:34)

Well,

⁓ well in the late year, last year of high school, I did one of these psychological tests and it came up with all the things that I would most enjoy working at and mathematician and engineer and accountant and business analyst and I'm not sure what else came up, but accountant was one of them. And that was my decision to leave that high school. ⁓

and go into a program over at a commercial school and do a year that was going to take me into Ryerson into business administration. And it was going to avoid some of the high costs of education that I didn't think my family could afford.

Dr. Cliff Redford (22:14)

Mm-hmm.

R odd (22:27)

And that's what I did. So I went to the commercial high school and I did that for a year. And then I needed a summer job. And I hadn't gotten a summer job in advance and I didn't have any relatives that could pull strings for me and so forth. So I applied for a permanent job and lied that told them I wasn't told them I was finished school. I didn't tell them I had first year Ryerson done.

Dr. Cliff Redford (22:50)

the

R odd (22:58)

and they treated me like a real employee. to know this was in Toronto. So, they had a subsidiary in Nassau, but so I got treated like a real employee. So, I decided I would stay for a while and I could save money towards going back to school. And so, I was staying for a year and then it was in February, I guess of that first year that

Dr. Cliff Redford (23:02)

Yeah, this was in the West Indies, right?

R odd (23:28)

They said they wanted me to go down to Nassau and work for them down there in the little office they had down there. So that was how that happened. But all along, like even when I first started working, the first year I started, the fall of that year when I started working and decided not to go back to Ryerson, Ryerson was gonna lead into the accounting program. So I just started the accounting program at the beginning level.

at that point. And then, know, then when I came, by the time I got back from Nassau, ⁓ I was as far in the accounting program as I would have been had I gone to Ryerson and did a lot, so many other subjects as well. But ⁓ as far as accounting, I was as far ahead just doing it without going to school. So that's what I continued doing.

Dr. Cliff Redford (24:24)

Mm-hmm.

Beautiful. Did you...

R odd (24:28)

And when your mom

and I got married, I was ⁓ finishing third year.

of a five-year program.

Dr. Cliff Redford (24:37)

Right. Did you, I mean, once you, once you finished with your formal training with your school and you're in the, you know, for real, the full-time, ⁓ permanent workforce, did you ever kind of go, this is not, this is not what I expected. ⁓ I'm not satisfied with this.

R odd (25:00)

No, no, I didn't. No, so that's, so I like being an accountant. That's what I wanted to do. And that's

Dr. Cliff Redford (25:01)

Now you're... No.

Yeah, I get the feeling

though that you would be satisfied with a lot of things like.

R odd (25:14)

Well, some of that's an attitude about life. I appreciate the term that you used to post-achievement depression. I guess some people are wired for depression and have chemical imbalances. When you first talked about the topic, I thought of Robin Williams, who had achieved so much as an actor and a median and

Dr. Cliff Redford (25:41)

Mm-hmm.

R odd (25:44)

I don't know what else he had tried, but it seemed like whatever he did, he threw himself into it and he achieved it. And so then what went wrong?

Dr. Cliff Redford (25:53)

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, that's, that's for, you know, that's a much deeper, ⁓ issue and, one, probably neither one of us are qualified to truly answer. ⁓ but, but there is, there's definitely, you're right in that there's a, there's a frame of mind for being happy, ⁓ or being satisfied, being content, ⁓ with

R odd (26:06)

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (26:22)

You're a lot in life. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try and improve things And if your lot in life really sucks, then if it's really horrible, then you shouldn't be content but I am very happy being a veterinarian. I think I would be equally happy being a teacher Equally happy being a police officer. These are all things that were on my sort of list of possible Careers when I was in high school

I'd be equally happy being a marine biologist was another one that I was really seriously thinking about.

R odd (26:59)

And when you had jobs that you might not have been happy with, like Junior Rangers or working at the food place at the water park, if you weren't happy there, you knew that that's not where you were gonna end up.

Dr. Cliff Redford (27:10)

Yep. But I enjoyed those too.

True, true. Yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah, so that's, you know, it's easy to deal with something that's, that isn't enjoyable if you know it's temporary. And especially if it's getting you closer, you know, getting you closer to things. But I mean, I had good times, I had good times cleaning up garbage at the, I guess what is now Wild Water Kingdom, what used to be Sunshine Beach way back in the day.

and flipping burgers. I didn't have a lot of fun when I sliced a chunk of my thumb off ⁓ working with the tomato slicer or the meat slicer. I still have a nice nasty scar that itches all the time. And I loved being a junior ranger. There's some parts I didn't, but I enjoyed it. And I do think that you and I ⁓ and most of the Redfords are wired in a way that we're...

R odd (27:50)

Yep.

Dr. Cliff Redford (28:12)

We're happy with what, what is it that Cheryl Crowe has a song where she says, I'm paraphrasing, I'm going to screw it up, but it's basically, you can get what you want. You can be happy. You can get what you want if you're happy with what you have or something like that. ⁓

R odd (28:29)

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (28:31)

and, ⁓ yeah, I think, ⁓ I think I would have been happy doing a lot of, a lot of things. ⁓ and, ⁓

And I think you would have been the same way. So I definitely get that from you, but yeah, there you go. Do you, how old are you? I'm embarrassed to ask this, but what are you 76?

R odd (28:51)

78 and three months.

Dr. Cliff Redford (28:52)

78, wow, you look great, dad.

78 in three months, that's right. Your dreams aren't over though, right? You still have dreams. Goals.

R odd (28:59)

I was telling Greg Charlie tonight about.

You

mean like in the middle of the night and I wake up and then later I can't remember it? Yeah, goals. What do I have as a goal? Goal is just to keep healthy these days and keep active.

Dr. Cliff Redford (29:09)

No, that's not what I mean.

There you go. You probably have something. You just can't think about it right now, but ⁓ any place you're looking to travel to that you still want to go to.

R odd (29:30)

I've been trying to tell Joyce we should go to Cuba at the end of the year for our 40th anniversary because we went there on a And you got dogs still. We went there on our honeymoon, we went there on our 25th anniversary, and what are the chances of us still being capable at the 50th anniversary?

Dr. Cliff Redford (29:36)

Nice. ⁓

I do, yes, this is very... ⁓

Yeah, yeah, you should go soon. You should don't wait.

R odd (29:58)

Anyway, now

I told your sister that and she said you should take a big trip every five years.

Dr. Cliff Redford (30:10)

Yeah, if that's the case, I've I'm owing myself quite a few because I haven't done a lot of trips. I haven't traveled. Well, I mean, I've traveled, but it's always volunteer work. Maybe that's what I like to do. That's true.

R odd (30:10)

So we'll see. We'll see.

Sure you have. Now you gotta stay away from traveling

through the US these days, right?

Dr. Cliff Redford (30:27)

Yeah, I mean, do you? Why, what happens?

R odd (30:28)

Yeah. Yes.

they get our money.

Dr. Cliff Redford (30:34)

Okay. But I mean, I had, I had this brief conversation with a team member. Her and her partner canceled their sort of Airbnb hiking plan to go to Lake Placid. And, you know, she said, you know, I'm not supporting Trump and my, family's immigrants.

R odd (30:36)

like that buying American products.

Good for them.

Dr. Cliff Redford (31:04)

and you know, what he's doing to immigrants is awful, a hundred percent true. And then I said, just as a devil's gab, the kit, I'm not trying to be a shit disturber as you used to often call me and probably still do. ⁓ I said, what if those Airbnb owners are immigrants? You know, like what if, so, so that's the thing is that I don't, I don't look at myself. I don't look at traveling to the U S as supporting the, the, the government.

R odd (31:25)

So.

So here's the

thing. You probably remember when you were young when we were boycotting things from South Africa. Now, not buying things from South Africa probably helped the poor, the blacks, more than it hurt the whites, but their movement was prepared to go through that if it would make the country change.

Dr. Cliff Redford (31:57)

Mm-hmm.

R odd (31:58)

Trump is not only hurting the immigrants, he's hurting the whole country, but even more so, he's hurting people like us who are partners with him. Apparently we're nasty and hard to deal with.

Dr. Cliff Redford (32:03)

Right.

Yeah, no, I agree with that 100 % but the thing is is

Right.

R odd (32:17)

but he's the one calling the shots.

Dr. Cliff Redford (32:19)

None of this is going to change Trump's mind and he's not going to be president forever.

R odd (32:28)

Well, we just don't want him to be president for very long. And it may not change his mind, but Americans will understand that they are pariahs in the world.

Dr. Cliff Redford (32:40)

Yeah. I don't know. guess in that I'm, if I want to go to New York, it's one of my favorite places, ⁓ to see some of my friends. ⁓ I would still go, and, and I would support the local economy and yeah, I guess, ⁓

R odd (33:00)

Have

your friends here and show them how beautiful Ontario is.

Dr. Cliff Redford (33:05)

Yeah, yeah, Broadway is different than the entertainment district in here. It's not going to happen anyways. So there you go. But this was great. This was great. pivoted onto a great another topic to discuss. As usual, Dad knows best.

R odd (33:19)

⁓ How do we get onto that?

Dr. Cliff Redford (33:33)

So there you go. I think the dogs are barking and they would like me to play with them and I know my wife would like me to play with them. So ⁓ you can get back to the family and thanks so much. Awesome. Love you too, dad. We'll chat later. We'll have you on again soon. Bye bye.

R odd (33:46)

You're welcome. Love you, Cliff. Bye.

Okay.

Dr. Cliff Redford (33:52)

that was a great ⁓ segment of Dad Knows Best. It's always nice talking to Papa Ross. ⁓ He really does know best. ⁓ is, I'd say, wise beyond his years, but he's not that young. ⁓ He's very wise. He's always been very wise and I love him dearly, of course. ⁓ However,

As much ⁓ as it's valuable talking to my father, and it is very, very valuable. ⁓ He always teaches me often. ⁓ We should talk to a professional about post-achievement depression or arrival fallacy. ⁓ So I've got my good friend Sarah Lowe, a psychotherapist and awesome boxing coach as well coming up in a second. And she is the... ⁓

Let's call her the host of this occasionally seen segment, hopefully more regularly seen segment on this podcast called Highs and Lows with Sarah Lowe.

Alright, Alright everyone, welcome back and ⁓ as I promised, I got my friend Sarah, the psychotherapist here for highs and lows, Sarah Lo. How's it going? Excellent, excellent. First of all, where can people find out more about you and ⁓ if they need their help with something, how can they reach out you?

Sarah (35:06)

Good, great.

Yeah, so the easiest and best way right now, Psychology Today, you just type in my name, Sarah Lowe, it's just L-O, and I'll pop right up and then my contact information is there.

Dr. Cliff Redford (35:28)

Beauty, All ⁓ right, we had been talking about or texting back and forth about this PGA guy, Scott. And I got to say, when I first heard him on the radio, they were playing him on some talk show. And I kind of thought this guy's kind of a jerk. Like he's he's and and and I don't agree with this opinion anymore. But like at first I was like, he's I mean, he's he's totally missing.

Sarah (35:37)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Cliff Redford (35:58)

this excitement about, you know, becoming number one in the world. And he's been number one in the world for two years. And, you know, this isn't where you get satisfaction. And then I took a deeper dive because they only did like 30 seconds and it was like a five minute interview. And, you know, he kind of just went on to describe about how great it is, what he does and how much he loves it. And he loves the training and he loves the effort, but there are other things more important in life. ⁓ and.

You know, that's when I started to learn about this post-achievement depression or arrival fallacy, which isn't really what he has, but I bet you there have been times where he's sort of felt like, this it? okay, so I've won the, I've won the masters. Is this it? ⁓ Is this a common thing both in, you know, sort of athletics and in sort of the real world, the regular world?

Sarah (36:40)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I think it's a very common thing. It's definitely common in athletics and it's super common in like a lot of times like post-grad schooling, right? People that are in grad school, either going for their master's or their PhD. I think they think they're going to feel significantly different once the big goal is achieved. And when we sort of get there, it's sort of disappointing because we live that like high.

for a few moments, and then we just go back to regular life and nothing has really changed for us. Right?

Dr. Cliff Redford (37:22)

Mm-hmm.

And then you can get in this vicious cycle of chasing that feeling by setting more and more goals. But we shouldn't avoid setting goals. I hope not because I'm addicted to setting goals and maybe that's part of the problem. But how do we prepare for this? Are there warning signs that this might happen or that you're going to be, let's say, a victim of this feeling afterwards?

Sarah (37:36)

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Cliff Redford (37:51)

and then

how do you stop it?

Sarah (37:54)

I don't know if there's like necessarily warning signs or like every single person it's going to happen to. I think shifting the perspective, I absolutely agree. Don't stop setting goals. Goals are, this is how we move forward and this is how we grow is by setting goals, right? But it's looking at the journey and there's that saying, right? It's the journey, it's not the destination. And that holds true in a lot of areas, right? Because we get the drive and the motivation from the purpose of the goal.

Right? We're looking towards it. So we get the drive and the motivation to do the schooling, to train for the event, right? To work towards that goal. So we have to sort of look at it more like that. When we get to the goal, what do we do now to maintain this feeling? Right? And so we either set more goals or we revamp what our perspective is. Like for vets, I'm sure it can be the same thing, right? You get through vet school, you kind of have that.

Dr. Cliff Redford (38:24)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Sarah (38:51)

You open your practice, you kind of have that, what does this look like for you now? Right? Can I take more days off? Can I do these things that will make me happy?

Dr. Cliff Redford (39:02)

Yeah, yeah, it's definitely a big problem. I mean, maybe not specifically post-achievement depression, but burnout and not, not being happy. Like the average veterinarian in North America, more than 50 % of veterinarians in North America do not encourage their children to be veterinarians. They're not happy. They're not as happy as they want to be. There's a high level of drug abuse in my industry, a high level of alcoholism, a high level of suicide.

Sarah (39:23)

Wow.

Dr. Cliff Redford (39:32)

And certainly a very high level of burnout and, and, people switching careers much earlier than you would have think they should have switched careers. ⁓ and a lot of them graduate and maybe they get to a practice and the mentor is not very good or, ⁓ you know, just the realities of, of life sometimes crowd into them. And they're just saying, is this it? Like I worked so hard to, to become a doctor of veterinary medicine.

Sarah (39:41)

I'm home.

Okay.

Dr. Cliff Redford (40:02)

And, you know, I'm having to go to my day to day and I'm not enjoying it. And, and it can be, it can be soul sucking. It can be pretty awful. ⁓ it can be pretty awful. ⁓ now, you know, as far as my industry, I try and encourage students to hold onto that feeling of when they got into vet school and hold onto that feeling of why they want to be a veterinarian.

Sarah (40:02)

Mm-hmm.

Sure. I'm sure.

right.

Dr. Cliff Redford (40:29)

and remember that and, know, I leave my practice, even if I've had a rough day, I now it's automatic. I've done it so many times, you know, for 27 years, 28 years, I leave my practice each day and I quickly look back and go, ⁓ all of these animals left in a better position than when they arrived. Even when they are euthanized, they left in a better position, ⁓ because they were suffering. But a lot of people don't.

Sarah (40:47)

Right.

Dr. Cliff Redford (40:56)

You know, they're not, guess, grasping that or whatnot. ⁓ now I do have goals outside of being a veterinarian. And I think that's probably important in avoiding this post-achievement depression is not throwing every single thing in your entire identity into getting that PhD or getting that promotion or completing a full Ironman like my wife's going to be doing next weekend.

Sarah (41:07)

Yes.

Dr. Cliff Redford (41:23)

That is not the only thing we have. I love boxing and I am a boxer But there was a life before boxing There might be a life after boxing. We'll see but if there is like I've got so many other things ⁓ That I'm proud of so that might be key

Sarah (41:28)

way.

Yeah.

And I think you nailed both things on the head. think that the way that you're teaching students to remember why did they go into this profession specifically for you and what were the experiences along the way, right? Because it's

The happiness and the fulfillment, the purpose comes from throughout the journey, you're building relationships, you're growing, you're discovering things about yourself. And those are where we need to like hold on to things, not just because it got me to this moment, right? Because those are things that we can bring into the next chapters of our lives. And then very, very true, like once you have this big accomplishment, turn your focus maybe to something else. Job can't be our entire identities.

Dr. Cliff Redford (42:10)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Sarah (42:23)

We need to say, what are our values? Who do we want to be as people? How do we want the world to see us? And when we focus on those things, can sort of hopefully mitigate a little bit why these big achievements leave us feeling a little bit down.

Dr. Cliff Redford (42:29)

Yeah.

Yeah, and you know, I wonder back to this, ⁓ this golfer Scotty, ⁓ you know, I was trying to be an amateur psychotherapist when I started this episode and I read up about his history. And while he's been number one for the last two years and he won rookie of the year, he's only like 27 or something. He's a young, he's a young man. ⁓ you know,

Sarah (42:52)

Mm-hmm.

no.

Dr. Cliff Redford (43:05)

number one for a couple of years, one rookie of the year, won a whole bunch of amateur US titles, et cetera, et cetera. But in the last year, him and his wife had a child. And all of a sudden, bet you, golf now is a job that he loves, but that's it. It's not the end all be all to his, and I think that's what he was getting at is he was explaining that there are, it is wonderful, but there are other things more important.

Sarah (43:13)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Cliff Redford (43:33)

⁓ and so I think the important thing is let's talk about veterinarians. You graduate as a veterinarian. You're now Dr. Smith. That doesn't mean you stop. That doesn't mean you don't, you know, again, set new goals, but also, you know, grow the things that are important to you outside of your life. Marriage, family, children, rescuing puppy dogs.

Sarah (43:33)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Cliff Redford (44:00)

traveling

around the world and volunteering like I'm doing now, all these different things, ⁓ it gets you to appreciate the past achievements without relying on them to make you happy, I guess. Yeah, It explains why so many people are unhappy and go bankrupt within a certain number of years after winning a massive lottery. They just think...

Sarah (44:13)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Totally. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (44:28)

Money is what's going to make me happy. And they had no destination. They had no journey. It was just a finish line that they didn't even know they were going for. ⁓ And so it didn't actually create any sort of ⁓ personal growth, maybe. And then all of a sudden, things feel pretty shallow, for sure. ⁓ Definitely. Yeah, mean, if someone is really starting to feel this way, ⁓

Sarah (44:32)

Mm-hmm, exactly. Right. It was just a fun fact. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Cliff Redford (44:57)

depressed, very discontent with where they are in life and they have just sort of maybe passed a major milestone. You know, your quick two minutes, what do you think they can do? And seeking therapy is very, important. That's definitely one, talk to people.

Sarah (45:14)

It is that can be,

yeah, very helpful for people. But I also think it's about talking to other people that may be in your community, right? Like maybe other vets, if it's vet specific, getting sort of the validation that other people feel this way too. And it's not forcing yourself to feel the emotions that maybe aren't there. Maybe this is just an accomplishment, right? It doesn't have to be this life changing thing that we're so super happy about.

Right? It's part of our journey. It was a destination to get us somewhere else. But we don't have to focus so much on, should feel this happy because I accomplished this big dream. Right? So it's really about like reevaluating how we look at things. And just really, yeah, being involved in community, trying to get the validation, get some advice from other people. ⁓

And with depression and low mood and stuff, the best thing always to do, find a physical hobby or like some type of behavioral activation. That's always the best advice.

Dr. Cliff Redford (46:07)

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely, it's a great way to start the morning by getting punched in the nose by your husband. I've talked about it many, many times. I text him, text him, all audio to text because I'm driving. I text him sometimes saying, I'm driving to work after boxing with you. I'm ⁓ picking bloody snot out of my nose. Life is amazing.

Sarah (46:15)

I bet it is. ⁓

There you go. See, you have a of great tips you can give to people.

Dr. Cliff Redford (46:34)

So there you go.

I figured out the therapy for me anyways, that's definitely what works is something physical that can ⁓ put things in perspective, I guess. don't know. ⁓ As always, Sarah, this is amazing. Thank you very much. ⁓ Everyone, I'll put the links for Sarah if you want to reach out to her ⁓ in our little podcast summary and we're going to have you back regularly. I appreciate it. Thanks, Sarah.

Sarah (46:50)

I'm

course.

Alrighty, thank you so much. Have a great day. Take care, bye.

Dr. Cliff Redford (47:07)

Alright, cheers.