The Future Dr. Joanna.

In this episode of Vet Life, Dr. Cliff Redford interviews Joanna, a veterinary student in Edinburgh, Scotland. They discuss Joanna's journey through veterinary school, her experiences with hands-on learning, and her growing confidence in surgical skills. The conversation also touches on a listener's update regarding a dog with myasthenia gravis, highlighting the importance of communication and support in veterinary care. Joanna shares her aspirations for the future and the excitement of getting out of the classroom and into clinical practice.

First, if you haven't watched my film and live in Canada (or have one of those VPN things), you can watch it here:

https://youtu.be/oMUx3yuyznc?si=oagpg7bGnpbuyXlJ

Be sure to follow me on Instagram @drcliffworldwidevet.com and on Twitter at @drcliff_vet
Listener questions, episode suggestions, or if you have a good idea for a guest, email me at dr.redford@vet905.com
Additional information can be found at drcliff.ca

Transcript

Dr. Cliff Redford (00:00)

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Vet Life with me, Dr. Cliff. Coming up very, very shortly, we've got a great interview with my friend Joanna. Joanna, if you're regular listener to this podcast, you know Joanna. Joanna is, I think she's halfway through, maybe more now, time flies, halfway through her veterinarian school over at the Royal. No, that's not right. She's in Edinburgh, Scotland.

⁓ and, we just check up on her twice a year, just to see how school's going and sort of experience, student life and future vet life through the eyes of a, ⁓ much more adult veterinary students. think she's early forties, ⁓ late thirties. I don't know something like that. anyways, it's a great interview and, it's a lot of fun until then though. I want to do a quick little, ⁓

listener email slash update. ⁓ this is a case from, let me see if I can move this out of way I can. So if you guys remember, check back a while, ⁓ five or six episodes, maybe, ⁓ where I talked about myasthenia gravis, which is a neurological condition that dogs get an autoimmune condition where they lose, ⁓ sort of

muscular function, strength, they can have collapse and they invariably often it progresses to the point where they can't swallow properly, they have aspiration ammonia. And I had received an email from a listener named Simone and she had some questions and it seems that I helped her out and she appreciated being on the podcast.

So she wrote here, hi again, Dr. Cliff. I wanted to thank you again for your help and guidance back in June regarding my dog, Alika, and deciding what to do about boosters given her autoimmune history. And thank you very much for discussing this on your podcast. I listened and shared beyond helpful. Thank you. You're welcome, Simone. And thank you for getting back to me. I wanted to provide an update.

After we spoke, I made an appointment with Dr. Barker, veterinary neurologist at the VEC here in Toronto. I decided that he would be my final stop and after speaking with him, I decided what to do. Like you, he was of the opinion that the rabies booster was important for a number of reasons. He then went a bit further and explained that while yes, a dog with an autoimmune history might have a relapse, the several patients he had treated with myasthenia gravis,

tolerated boosters well with no relapses that he was aware of. He thought she might be fine. He also said, like you did, that if Alika was his dog, he'd vaccinate for rabies and see how she does. He felt that if a vaccine-related flare was to happen, it would likely be within days or up to a week.

So, a week ago today she had a rabies booster. I hope I'm not speaking too soon. Knock on wood. That was me, not her. I hope I'm not speaking too soon, but she is showing zero signs of a relapse. She didn't even seem bothered by the vaccine itself. No fatigue, et cetera. This may mean that I consider boosting for distemper and leptos some point down the road, but I'm not sure yet.

Continue the discussion with my vet in the fall as I don't want to push it. I'm very relieved with this outcome and for obvious reasons So I wanted to know Thank you very much for helping with my very difficult decision. It was invaluable to me. All the best Simone Thanks, Simone ⁓ And like Simone you guys can email me dr.redford at vet905.com You can find me on instagram at dr cliff worldwide vet

Maybe we'll talk about this more with Joanna and I see she's waiting to be entered into the studio. So stay tuned for this fun interview

Joanna (04:16)

Hi!

Dr. Cliff Redford (04:17)

Hey

Joanna, how you doing? I am excellent. We are recording, we are live. I just had a ⁓ fun update via email about a dog with myasthenia gravis. Have you learned much about that condition yet? Yeah, yeah, what do you remember? Not to test you, you just finished tests, you're relaxing in Milan.

Joanna (04:19)

Good, how are you?

Okay, a little bit, yeah, yeah. What do I remember? ⁓ gosh. That's when your acetylcholine

⁓ receptors are, or is it the acetylcholine, no it's the receptors, right? There's an issue with the receptors. Something like that, so that they're not, so that's when basically they will,

Dr. Cliff Redford (04:51)

Yes.

Joanna (05:00)

the dog will just be tired all the time because it's unable to.

Something like that, is that right? Very close, yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (05:07)

It's very, very, yes, it's essentially, it's 100 %

right. Yeah, it's 99.9 % right. It is excellent for a mid-level vet student to know that. Yeah, it's an autoimmune disease. It attacks the acetylcholine neurotransmitter receptors and they end up getting weakness, progressive weakness.

Joanna (05:13)

Yeah.

Ha ha.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Cliff Redford (05:33)

coordination issues collapse and then a big one is ⁓ swallowing defects and they get aspiration ammonia unfortunately, that's often what becomes the the cause of death is is euthanasia due to Poor quality of life due to aspiration ammonia because they keep regurgitating their food. They can't swallow properly but this case Was a dog named Alika and the woman Simone had emailed me back in June

Joanna (05:38)

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Cliff Redford (06:03)

⁓ asking about vaccines. Should I vaccinate her? ⁓ she'd been confirmed to have myasthenia gravis and mega esophagus associated with it. So that's another thing they can get mega esophagus, not just swallowing defects. ⁓ and I kind of explained that while vaccines, like anything that strengthens or weakens the immune system could cause a relapse. ⁓ we also can't go around having dogs not vaccinated at least for rabies.

Joanna (06:06)

Bye.

Mm-hmm. Right. Yep.

Dr. Cliff Redford (06:33)

⁓ and, ⁓ my recommendation was obviously talk to the neurologist, but, ⁓ if it was my dog, I would vaccinate for rabies and only rabies, ⁓ and get on that three year rabies cycle. ⁓ she ended up speaking to the neurologist, Dr. Barker, who I respect, incredibly. ⁓ he's such a brilliant and compassionate veterinarian and he agreed with me. She proceeded the dogs doing great.

Joanna (06:44)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Cliff Redford (07:03)

Et cetera, et cetera. So she had given me an update and a thank you. And what I hadn't realized is sometimes they can, they can get it into relapse. Like, I guess there's different versions of myasthenia gravis and like autoimmune diseases. They're so idiopathic, know, they're so misunderstood. So it was something she taught me, which was, which was great. And, ⁓ yeah, ⁓ I don't remember.

Joanna (07:16)

Yeah.

Mmm. Yeah.

How old is a dog?

Dr. Cliff Redford (07:32)

I would just be guessing probably four or five. Like that's usually when these things hit.

Joanna (07:35)

Okay, so it had

its base vaccines already, like its core, so it has some immunity. It's not like totally, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (07:40)

Yeah.

Yeah. And I think it was like, vaccines were coming due and I was like, ⁓ you know, get it done before you miss that three day. I don't know how it is there in the UK. mean, you're a Toronto, ⁓ Toronto person, but, but did they require rabies vaccines? Really? They still, even with the tunnel. I mean, what happens when a rabid raccoon comes across from Paris?

Joanna (07:45)

Okay. Yeah.

No rabies. There's no rabies. No, no, no.

Yeah, even with the dendro. ⁓

They don't allow it in. They stop it at the border. They, you know, they're really intense about their travel scheme, their pet travel scheme. So any animal that's leaving the UK going into Europe obviously has to be vaccinated for rabies, against rabies. And, when they come back into the UK, it's like when my dogs came, they have to be up to date with their rabies. They have to be warmed.

Dr. Cliff Redford (08:12)

you

Joanna (08:38)

⁓ but otherwise when you're here, you're living in a rabies free country. ⁓ you don't need rabies vaccines unless you're leaving or coming into the country. So we don't have the problem, which is so interesting because it's like, I remember being at your clinic and you know, the dogs were a couple of days late and then they, missed their three year, you know, they missed being able to be in the three year protocol.

And, like, yeah, we don't have that issue here. So dogs are vaccinated for Lepto and their distemper and their, know, DHPP, whatever. And, so yeah, it's different. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (09:12)

Wow. I had thought,

cause there was like years ago, it was a six month process to be able to bring your dog to the UK. Was that the same thing when you, when you arrived? ⁓ so it was this big six month process and I had thought obviously incorrectly that it was the change was because they started vaccinating because everyone was so worried. Look, sooner or later,

Joanna (09:21)

Yeah.

No, no, no, no quarantine.

Dr. Cliff Redford (09:42)

An animal from the channel goes from France. it France to, to where is it England somewhere? to London. So sooner or later, an animal is going to be like hiding in some orange crate or something. Like, I don't know. ⁓ it's just.

Joanna (09:46)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Paris or whatever. Yeah, London or something like that near.

Yeah.

Yeah,

the thing they do have an issue with is dogs coming in being adopted from say Eastern Europe or you know those countries and bringing in Lichmania or you know different strains of Lepto and you know like different things like that, worms and parasites and so ⁓ which they don't have in the UK. So that's something they're more concerned about that I see more than rabies. It's not a concern here.

Dr. Cliff Redford (10:07)

Mmm.

Right.

Joanna (10:28)

You know, there probably is... I don't know. mean, but as we know, the thing about rabies is that it's euthanized. So I'm sure that if there is ever any question about it, the dog will be put down here. It's that strict. You know, like they're not going to probably wait and no, they don't mess around. Not in the UK, as far as I know. ⁓

Dr. Cliff Redford (10:44)

They don't mess around.

Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ whereas,

know, here, you know, in the GTA and in Markham specifically, they find it in bats every year or two. ⁓ and it's a slightly, they, get the, the, we call the dumb form, not the rage form, the angry form. ⁓ so, for those listeners, rabies can present as your classic old yeller, you know, dog. That was a great movie, sad movie from what the fifties.

Joanna (10:55)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

you

Dr. Cliff Redford (11:19)

old, you know, old Yeller had rabies and became aggressive and was drooling and was, was, was ready to bite his owner, you know, and then Pa had to go out and shoot it. Spoiler alert, but if no one's seen old Yeller, it's too late. ⁓ sure you've learned about it already, but there's this other form called the dumb form. And it's basically the rabid animals are quiet and

Joanna (11:27)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Cliff Redford (11:47)

⁓ almost

let's start like highly lethargic and, and not aggressive at all. ⁓ and it can still spread, but the whole crazy thing about rabies is with the aggressive form, with the rage form, it actually propagates its own multiplication. Like it's kind of interesting. Like it's a virus that I'm going to change the behavior.

Joanna (11:55)

Okay. Yeah.

⁓ Yeah, zombies or something. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (12:16)

of this creature such that it can it can transmit me better. ⁓ You know, there's there's all kinds of diseases that are like that talk. So I think in in like rats and mice, they become less frightened of the of the cats and they can spread it. And the cats are attracted to the urine smell that the what the rats have. Yeah, yeah.

Joanna (12:22)

Yeah.

you

Hmm.

Hmm. Smart vaccines, smart viruses.

mean, sorry, smart viruses. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Basically. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (12:44)

Smart viruses, smart viruses and yeah, get your animals vaccinated. yeah,

it's now does the UK talking about lishmaniasis and parasites and whatnot, does the UK have a certain list of countries that they refuse regardless of the situation, refuse animals from?

Joanna (13:04)

That's a good question, and I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I feel it, yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (13:07)

Yeah, during, during the pandemic,

when all of a sudden, you know, puppies became a commodity and people were, you know, selling puppies for four times what they're selling them for previously. We all of a sudden had a slew of not breeders air quotes breeders from all kinds of countries, but especially Eastern Europe for whatever reason, ⁓ selling these puppies and transporting them.

Joanna (13:14)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (13:37)

to

Canada. And it was getting to the point that we were seeing puppies with rabies vaccine records, very professional looking passports, you know, etc, etc. But these puppies were six weeks old, eight weeks old. So and clearly either got the vaccine and that's the rabies vaccine, and that's too early. So it doesn't work. Or more likely, they didn't get the vaccine at all.

Joanna (13:45)

Yeah.

Yeah. No.

Yeah, absolutely.

⁓

Dr. Cliff Redford (14:06)

And Canada, basically there was like a list

of 45 countries where they refused animals, regardless of age, regardless of anything. And it was why I couldn't bring any animals back from Ukraine when I volunteered there. So, ⁓ yeah, they had to.

Joanna (14:10)

Yeah.

Right, right, yeah, yeah. I think there's

loopholes now or something. Like I know I have friends in Nepal bringing Nepali dogs in, but I think they have to be adopted. Like they have to have a home signing for them. I think it's illegal to bring dogs that are going into foster or like shelters, I think. I don't know the ins and outs, but I believe it's like more strict than it was. But yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (14:38)

and

Yeah, yeah. I think they've opened

it up now in Canada, or at least I haven't heard the same, the same issues, but it was like such a surprise, ⁓ with this pandemic and obviously the countries had other things they were trying to focus on. The last thing they needed was a rabies, a rabies outbreak. ⁓ but, ⁓ yeah, it's, ⁓ Mother nature's fighting back though. We, we are now seeing, you know, Lyme disease is at a, at an increase for sure.

Joanna (14:46)

Yeah.

Yeah.

I know, yeah. No, it makes sense. mean, yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (15:11)

But for the first time, not once, not twice, but now three times I have diagnosed dogs with either ear, Lickia or anaplasmosis that had no travel history. Yeah. So that's right. Like everyone, the listeners is like, what's the big deal? So that's, that's one of those, these are like Lyme disease. These organisms are spread by ticks. I had never, when the first one I saw was ear, Lickia.

Joanna (15:23)

Really?

that's wild.

Dr. Cliff Redford (15:40)

And the dog three years prior had come from the West Indies. It's like, all right, this dog had developed their Lickie in the West Indies. It was endormant. Now it's positive. No big deal. And then like a week later, we had another one and the dog was born in Canada. And so I ended up having to speak to a specialist and there it was Scott Weiss over at Worms and Germs blog. I recommend everyone check it out. He's a infectious disease specialist, both for humans and people and animals, but he's a vet.

Joanna (15:46)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Cool.

Dr. Cliff Redford (16:09)

out of the University of Guelph, worms and germs. If you just do worms and germs blog, you'll check it out. And

Joanna (16:10)

Worms, what's it called? Say it again, worms and germs? Germs blog. Okay, there it is. Cool.

Dr. Cliff Redford (16:19)

⁓ yeah, he said, no, we're seeing Ehrlichia and anaplasmosis, these tick-borne vectors in Canada, originating in Canada. Mother nature has spread out. She's a nasty unspaid female dog. She's a nasty bee. She fights back, but.

Joanna (16:31)

Wow.

my gosh.

Dr. Cliff Redford (16:37)

Anyways, ⁓ good on you for knowing my Asini or Gravis. ⁓ That's a tough one.

Joanna (16:41)

I mean, I should have

known it better and had a... It's not that tough. Well, we learned about it, but yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (16:45)

It's, hey, look, it's, it's very rare. ⁓

yeah, no, no, you got it though. You got it. ⁓ and I learned you're on the right track. Let's talk about that track. Where are you? Like, where are you in your schooling? You have, you graduated or not. You finished your third out of what? Way more than 50%. Yeah. You look happy.

Joanna (16:53)

I'm on the right track.

I finished my third year. Finished my third out of five.

Yeah.

Well, cause I'm on holiday. Cause I'm in holiday. Yeah. I just finished, I finished six weeks of EMS, which is our extramural studies where we have to do weeks at vet clinics. And you know what, like I said, I do it in Scotland because of the dogs. ⁓ but I will, I'm planning now my final year, they've changed the guidelines. So now you have to do eight weeks in your final year. So I'm going to plan to do a couple of weeks with you in my final year.

Dr. Cliff Redford (17:11)

In Milan. That's amazing.

Right.

Awesome.

Joanna (17:40)

And,

you know, so yeah, I'm just waiting to come to see you before I, like, you know, when I'm waiting so that I'm a little bit not as green as I am now. So I am a little more, yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (17:43)

So exciting.

⁓ You're going to learn a lot.

You're going to learn a lot. We have two, ⁓ third year, like finished third year out of a six year program, Paris, France, vet students. ⁓ this is their last out of four weeks. So like your school, and I guess a lot of schools in Europe, ⁓ each year there's a, there's a very formal number of weeks. have to do external placements.

Joanna (18:00)

Holy.

Dr. Cliff Redford (18:17)

and Zoe and Lysan. Lysan's aunt lives down the street from us. So they had reached out to me six months ago saying, hey, we want to come to Markham. And I was just like, ⁓ sure, but we have no place for you to stay. Like, I don't want you to think that we got some, you you can't stay at my place.

Joanna (18:24)

Wow.

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (18:38)

⁓ and, they're like, no, we have, you know, we have a place and, it's been amazing. And the reason I bring it up is so they are third year as well, but third out of six. So you're a little bit more advanced to them. They, they know a lot and they've been hugely helpful. And so, you know, a lot. ⁓ so, you know, anytime you want to come, yes, you're going to learn, but you're going to be, I think you'll surprise yourself with how much, how much you know. ⁓

Joanna (18:46)

Yeah.

I'm sure.

I hope so. I hope so.

You know, it's we do this crazy course called the cat and dog course, and it's basically all of the possible pathologies of cat and dogs. And we do that in, you know, a few months. And so we've just finished and I'm like, I'm just, you know, I'm trying to get everything and then you do your EMS and you, you're, thrown into the clinics and you're doing, you know, neuters and spays. mean, not by yourself, but your

Dr. Cliff Redford (19:31)

Mm-hmm.

Joanna (19:31)

like getting

your first time hands on experience, which I have been and you know, just being thrown in there. So, I mean, it's the only way to learn. think it's great actually, the system of having to do, we have to do 26 weeks in vet clinics. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (19:43)

Yeah. Wow. That's huge.

That's huge. ⁓ and it's nice though, that it's spread out, you know, versus like the university of Guelph. It's basically two months of the final summer, sort of before final year, you have to do two months straight. We have a student, Ananya right now who's doing that. ⁓ and she's, she's doing great. She's doing excellent, but, ⁓ I would imagine there's, there's

Joanna (19:51)

Yeah.

⁓

Okay. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (20:12)

There's probably a real benefit of, of doing a little bit here and there. ⁓ as far as that cats and dog, ⁓ class, you know, you're probably learning about a lot of complicated diseases. My senior Gravis Cushing's Addison's like those are, I still remember learning about Cushing's disease and just having trouble wrapping my head around.

Joanna (20:20)

Yeah.

Yeah.

⁓ God. The HPA axis. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (20:41)

the diagnostic versus differentiation tests.

Yeah, and that whole, ⁓ the connection between Cushing's and diabetes and thyroid, this triad of hormonal conditions. And it wasn't until like my first case, my second case, where I sat down and I really looked over my notes.

Joanna (20:53)

my.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (21:07)

This

is obviously, you know, 27 years ago after shortly after graduating and it like, ⁓ okay. Now all this theory is starting to, once the animals in front of me and I see the symptoms and I can see the adjustments of the drugs and whatnot. ⁓ it really does come together. So, you know, know that I felt very overwhelmed and I felt very.

Joanna (21:17)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (21:36)

imbalanced, I guess, with a lot of these diseases, ⁓ a little confused. But if you kind of learn those basics, learn that foundation, and then once you see the animal in front of you, and you can work through the process, because it's not a life and death where, hey, I need to treat this in five seconds or else it's not going to live. You have time to review your notes and figure things out. Unless you go to an emergency right away.

Joanna (21:43)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Unless you go into emergency right away, which I'm not doing

that right away. So, but yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (22:03)

But if you do,

you don't have to worry about Cushing's disease. You do have to worry about Addison's. You do have to worry about Addison's and that's a whole different story. Addisonian crises are, they're no joke. They are scary as heck.

Joanna (22:07)

That's true. All the Addison's. You do. You do have to worry about Addison's. Yeah.

Yeah,

I've never seen one in real life yet. ⁓ but yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (22:23)

Yeah,

yeah, we lost a patient, shout out to Mango up there and, you know, crossing the Rainbow Bridge a while ago. We lost a patient, Mango, on a, it was like a Saturday, right near closing. They were not a patient, they were coming to us, their clinic had closed, their clinic had kind of...

I'll say it. had, they had mismanaged this case. They knew it was Addison's. They had just diagnosed the dog with Addison's and the dog was sick and they're like, all right, we'll see you in a week for some testing. And they hadn't treated with, they hadn't put them on any steroids in the meantime. ⁓ like they knew the dog had Addison's, but they didn't, they didn't, they were like waiting for other, we're to do one more test or something like that. And it came to me in a crisis and we couldn't, ⁓ we couldn't get it.

Joanna (22:57)

my gosh.

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (23:16)

We couldn't get it to live and he died tragically. It was very, very sad. They brought their new puppy to us a week or two ago, so that was very sweet. I still remember Mango and the effect, the relationship that Mango had with the family was ⁓ why I do this. It was so powerful and so sweet, ⁓ but so tragic as well. ⁓

Joanna (23:29)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (23:42)

With that being said, you may not, you you say you're not going to do emergency, but you'll still get those emergencies at the clinic. ⁓ But you're going to be amazing. So, yeah, how did school go? mean, I think it's you passed.

Joanna (23:48)

Yeah. Yeah.

I passed. I mean, I passed my

exams and I finished third year. I've done six weeks this summer already of placements. I'll be on break now. Then I'll have one more week before school up in the Highlands in Aviemore. A friend of mine is a vet up there. So I'm going to go follow him around for a week and do some large animal stuff. And sometimes he deals with reindeer and things like that. So I'm hoping I get, I hope I might get some of that cool stuff. And yeah, I don't, I mean,

Dr. Cliff Redford (24:04)

beauty.

Joanna (24:26)

Look, I'm making it through. I'm slogging. It's a slog for me. I mean, for most people, but I'm not ashamed to admit it. Like people ask me how it's going and I'm like, it's brutal. It's brutal. You know, but there's moments of like, I'm, you know, I was at this, I'm at this amazing clinic, which is in my little town called Penny Cook, which is just closer to the vet school outside of Edinburgh. And I got really lucky because this clinic, they're wonderful and they're teaching me so much.

Dr. Cliff Redford (24:37)

It's brutal. Yeah.

Joanna (24:55)

Cause you know, I've come in, like I worked for you, but I didn't get much. didn't do much, you know, placing catheters and drawing blood and that kind of thing. ⁓ because we had amazing techs that just did it all, you know, and I was doing, I was doing more client, client care, which also I think is a great thing that I'm like, glad I did that. Cause the great opportunity to learn about that stuff, that side of it as well. but yeah, they're letting me, they're just like, you're, you're not, you're placing the catheter, you're drawing up the bloods in there.

They're letting me, you know, they'll do one half of a castrate and I'll do the other half. They're letting me suture and, you know, do some parts of space, like one side. And I have to say, like, I, I'm loving, I'm loving surgery and I'm shocked to say it, but like, I really thought I would be more terrified, but it turns out I'm more confident in that department than I am with the like internal med part right now. You know, just like the hands on I'm like,

Dr. Cliff Redford (25:38)

Mm-mm.

Yeah.

Joanna (25:52)

⁓ okay, you know, I could, learned how to, I'm better with, maybe it's my background in theater and with my body and being confident in that way. But I was surprising myself. like, ⁓ this is not as terrifying as I, I mean, it's terrifying. Obviously you have to be really careful, but it's like, okay, this, this is, I can get into this. Like, yeah, this is great. So I was really excited about that.

Dr. Cliff Redford (25:58)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And professionally speaking, like for your career, that's going to pay off huge because a lot of veterinarians that are graduating do not like, or do not feel comfortable with surgery. Um, and a lot of, you know, let's say mid level, uh, uh, associates with 10 years experience, even vet clinic owners with 10 years experience, um, refuse to do dog spays if the dog is greater than 40 pounds.

Joanna (26:20)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Cliff Redford (26:44)

let's say. Yeah, but you're a student. It sounds like, and I know you well enough to believe it, that you are head and shoulders above the average student halfway through their career regarding surgery. And the biggest thing is because you enjoy it and you feel confident in the abilities that you currently have.

Joanna (26:45)

Yeah, I mean, I have yet to do a dog spay on it. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (27:11)

such that you know that if you keep practicing, you will gain those other look my, I'm a very good surgeon, soft tissue. And I was a very good soft tissue student, like surgeon as a student for what a student should be able to do. My first spay after I graduated still took me, you know, an hour 15 and then my second spay was on a,

Joanna (27:18)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Cliff Redford (27:39)

65 pound Greyhound. So deep chest, adult, and Greyhounds have a slight. Yeah, they got fibrin issues and so they can bleed a little bit more. And I might've told this story already, but I'm to tell it again. My, my first boss, Dr. Gil Plummer, what an amazing mentor for so many reasons, including he pushed me, ⁓ in a way that I think a lot of vet students now would

Joanna (27:42)

Oh my gosh. Holy moly. Some platelet conditions and all kinds of things. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (28:09)

consider traumatic. I'm doing this Greyhound's spay and I you know, I'd adopted Greyhounds I had two Greyhounds at the time so partially he took in this great rescue Greyhound knowing that alright Cliffs my associate is going to handle this case because he's in love with these breed this breed and I'm like 40 minutes into the surgery it ended up taking me about an hour which is decent for that size dog and my level of experience at the time.

Joanna (28:10)

Yeah.

Yeah, right.

Dr. Cliff Redford (28:37)

⁓ like now it would take me 45 minutes for a, for an adult grayhound spay, but I was having a problem with the second pedicle and tearing that pedicle and tying it off properly. And so I asked the technician, Hey, can you go grab. Gil, can you go grab Dr. Plummer? I have a question. And she's sheepishly said, ⁓ he's gone. He went home. What do mean he went home?

Joanna (28:47)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Dr. Cliff Redford (29:05)

She's like, yeah, he went home when you started and said, tell Cliff if he has any problems that he's got this and he can handle it. Now look, he was a five minute drive away, but we didn't call him. I was like, all right, I guess I got this. And when he came back, I was like suturing up, the dog did great. I was suturing up my last suture and he stuck his head in and it was just like, hey buddy, how's it going? And I was like, you?

Joanna (29:08)

⁓ my

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (29:34)

fucking asshole. Like you couldn't. This is the relationship we had. I literally said you fucking asshole. You left and he laughed so loud. He's like, Yeah, but everything went great. You got this. And damn it. He was right. So, you know, ⁓ I hope no one does that to you. ⁓ But maybe they do. I don't know. ⁓

Joanna (29:36)

Yeah.

Yeah.

you

You know, I

like, you know that my dream is to spay all the dogs in India. So, ⁓ literally. No, but you know, that's my, and I feel like there will be moments, especially because I know working in that part of the world, it's so different, even in terms of anesthetics, like to, you know, you're doing, you're not doing like gas, right? You're often, you're like doing injectables. Many, or is that true? Yeah. So it's.

Dr. Cliff Redford (30:02)

Yeah. Even the males come on.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, it's almost all that's, that's

everything I used. Like xylazine and ketamine and, you know, propofol if you're lucky to keep them under. Yeah.

Joanna (30:27)

Yeah.

Wow,

that's wild. But yeah, I'm sure there'll be times, you know, where you're just, you're like, okay, well, this dog, you know, you have to sink or swim this dog, it needs to get done. And it's like the same approach that guilt had, you you just, you gotta, you gotta, got, has to get done and you're gonna do it, you know, especially, yeah, those, yeah, yeah. But yeah, yeah, like it's, yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (30:51)

You're going to do it. Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and so, you know, I think you're going to find that you are way more knowledgeable and capable on the medicine side, but definitely on the surgery side. ⁓ and, ⁓ you know, I would like to say that it seems like the conversations you and I have had through WhatsApp, when we're checking up on each other that although, yeah, it's still stressful third year.

Joanna (31:08)

room.

Dr. Cliff Redford (31:26)

You seem to have more of a handle of it now than you did the first year because you're getting more and more into the hands-on stuff. ⁓ and you know, knowing that 10th differential and understanding the minutia of some strange, rare, complicated disease. You got to know that for year one and year two, cause that's all they're teaching you. I don't remember that stuff. I mean, I wasn't even a hundred percent sure about my senior Gravis.

Joanna (31:30)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (31:54)

I

recognize it's acetylcholine and I recognize it's a neurotransmitter, but is it acetylcholine or is it acetylcholine esterase? None of it matters when you're treating the disease because you can quickly look it up. But knowing the hands-on stuff, getting that catheter into that dehydrated puppy or intubating, you know, we had a raccoon, little baby raccoon that had surgery at our clinic and no one could intubate them. And then I stepped in.

Joanna (32:18)

you

Dr. Cliff Redford (32:21)

It was really just that everyone had used too big of a, of a tube. ⁓ they were sort of stuck in this hamster wheel of, okay, this is, these are the two tubes that my, my colleague handed me. If the four is not big enough, I'll go to the three and a half. And then I went in and I was like, guys, give me a two and a half. Like you got to give me a small tube. Exactly. we can always fill the cuff. Like, you know, you can, so little things like that, but, ⁓

Joanna (32:24)

Mm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, think cat. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (32:51)

Like it does seem, and correct me if I'm wrong, it seems like the level of difficulty is at least less. It's still difficult for you, but less.

Joanna (33:02)

I don't know. Yeah, who knows? Who knows? knows? It's a different type of difficulty now because you're applying the things that you spent three years learning. And that's just like the recall and that's like, my God. But I really do love being in the clinic. love, you

Dr. Cliff Redford (33:04)

Maybe. Who knows? Keep trying. Keep going. No, keep going.

Yeah.

Joanna (33:26)

the hands-on. I'm just like very invested in the cases. I'm so happy when patients do well. I'm happy to see, you know, owners and patients and the love they have for, you know, the owners are just so committed. Like it warms my heart, you know, to see all that and to just help. And like that just makes me so happy. And yeah, and, and yeah, I'm just like excited to have more opportunity to get out of the classroom, to be honest.

Like I can't wait to get, I mean, I know it's like necessary evil and I have to, have, no, I actually, this is my last year in the classroom. This is my last year we do. So fourth year is equine. It's large animals. So farm and exotics. And then that's it. And then we're done in the lecture theater. And then fifth year is all rotations. It's all clinical rotations. So one more year in the classroom, one more year in the books. And then it's on my feet.

Dr. Cliff Redford (34:01)

And that.

Beautiful. Yeah.

Joanna (34:21)

applying everything, I mean, you know.

Dr. Cliff Redford (34:23)

Now, do you have formal

exams that final year? Really? Yes. Well, you have NAVLE, the North American Vet Licensing. Really? Like, so each rotation has an exam as well.

Joanna (34:26)

Yeah, yeah, and then Adley. Yeah.

NAVLI and formal exams. Yeah, Not

each, I'm not totally sure. think it's semester by semester there's exams or maybe just, I'm not exactly sure, but I know there are exams. There's always exams in the UK, especially, but I don't, and I know that each rotation you're doing cases and you're presenting. like you're getting assessed on that side of it as well. You're not just like there, you know, they're, they're,

Dr. Cliff Redford (34:46)

Yeah. Yeah.

Well...

Right. Yeah.

Joanna (35:00)

making you do something and you're not just standing around. ⁓

Dr. Cliff Redford (35:03)

Well, yeah, Guelph,

like back in the day, late nineties, when I was at Guelph, by the time you start final year, which is all clinical rotations, just like you, you're done with tests other than Navley, you know? So everyone is, if you're studying, you're studying Navley. I mean, you might be studying about the disease of the dog, the dog that just, you know, had X.

Joanna (35:07)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (35:27)

exocrine pancreatic insufficiency or something. I don't mean to like trigger you or traumatize you as you're starting to think about those diseases. You might you know, you know, might you might have that dog with that disease, and you know that your professor is going to ask you to present it in rounds. So you need to understand that. But that's a little bit different than, than, you know, yeah.

Joanna (35:29)

Bye.

Yeah.

You prepare, preparation,

as long as you have preparation time, it's fine, you know? Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (35:50)

You're gonna be fine. Yeah.

And it's and you know, okay, I know what's going to be on the air quotes test, because it's going to be rounds about my case. So I just have to know my my case well. But there were no tests. Now you did get a fail pass or pass with with like outstanding ⁓ grade. But all you needed was a pass.

Joanna (35:58)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Cliff Redford (36:18)

And you

aren't going to fail small animal medicine rotation, which is a two week, unless you are goofing off and coming in, coming in late and going home early and not, you know, not communicating with the treatment team about what your patients need. Who's going to do that? Everyone's going to work hard. But now like in OVC, they obviously are testing for NAVLA or studying for the licensing exam and in Christmas time and then.

Joanna (36:23)

No.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Cliff Redford (36:46)

doing it again in May if they happen to fail one or both parts, but they are getting formal tests. ⁓ and so sometimes they find out while I've passed NAVLA. I've got four. So that's what, you know, I passed NAVLA on my first try in, in December. You find out back then we found out like late January and then I four months, no more studying to do. And I just have to not.

Joanna (36:47)

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Cliff Redford (37:16)

goof off and I'll pass the clinical rotations. But that's not the case anymore. Like these, these students come to me and they say, Hey, I've passed NAVLA, but I failed whatever rotation. And I don't know why I worked really, really hard. Um, and they failed me. And, uh, so I need to, you know, come to your clinic for a week so I can get a rotate. Okay. Come on in. Like last minute we'll do that. So it's changed, but, um,

Joanna (37:17)

Mm-hmm.

No.

Yeah.

Wow.

my gosh.

Wow.

Dr. Cliff Redford (37:45)

Yeah, it'll be different and that final year I think you're going to shine. ⁓

Joanna (37:46)

Yeah.

Yeah, I don't think it's common in my school for people to fail your final year. think if you make it that far and you have, like you say, like common sense and you have some kind of responsible work ethic, which you should by that point, then you'll be okay. ⁓ But yeah, like it's the first four years that you're worried about, the first two really, I think. I passed them somehow and I passed, I passed them, I haven't had to reset, which is... ⁓

Dr. Cliff Redford (38:03)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And you're past those.

Yeah.

Joanna (38:19)

I mean, I'm

not, I'm not a, like, I, I, no, I do more than just pass now, like, but I'm not an 80s, like, that's not me, and I don't care. I don't care.

Dr. Cliff Redford (38:25)

Yeah. Yeah. This is a very different, this is a very

different Joanna than what it was two years ago. Um, you know, you were, you were at serious, you had serious worry that you weren't going to pass and you were going to have to rewrite. And when you did pass, you had said to me, you know, I barely passed. Whereas now you just said, you know, I don't just barely pass anymore. I'm not a, yeah.

Joanna (38:32)

Yeah. Aww.

I know.

I mean, ⁓

look, it's not amazing. I'm sure some people wouldn't be proud of my mark, but like, I don't care. don't have any of that. I'm not striving. I'm striving to pass and to like, just, yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (38:57)

Yeah. Yeah. You're still going to be a veterinarian. You're still going to be

a doctor. You know, there's no asterisks beside your name. And though I sometimes say if you're a vet, if you're a graduating veterinarian and you refuse to do surgery, maybe there should be an asterisk beside your beside your.

Joanna (39:06)

No.

Yeah. Well, you know, in

the UK, it's so funny. They call like, so they'll say your name and they'll say veterinary surgeon. Like that's everyone's called a veterinary surgeon. And they know they'll call the practice. They'll call even like a clinic, they'll call it the surgery. It's like, that's just what you are. You're a surgeon. You're a veterinary surgeon.

Dr. Cliff Redford (39:23)

Yep.

Yeah. Yeah. People don't.

Yeah.

Joanna (39:36)

But

I think there are actually some people I know of that don't do surgery and are more into internal med and stuff like that, which is great. You find what you're good at and what you're interested in. But I think, yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (39:46)

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, we don't,

we don't second guess human doctors. If you're a family doctor, of course you don't do surgery. I would never let my family doctor do surgery on me. Um, I, I take pride in the fact though, that veterinarians, average general practitioner veterinarians do surgery. Um, our radiologists, dermatologists, we are masters of all trade or no Jacks of all trade masters of none. Um, you know,

Joanna (39:51)

No. Yeah.

Yeah. Our dentists, our surgeons, our... It's... That's what masters of...

Dr. Cliff Redford (40:16)

I've looked, I've talked about it on this podcast. People have called me a jerk for saying this, whatever. I'm too old now to care. ⁓ I do, I have a problem with general practitioners refusing to do surgery. Even when it's an, look, if you don't want to do a spay cause you know, your associate, your colleague is better, that's fine. But if an animal comes in with a laceration and is bleeding heavily,

Joanna (40:30)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, PIO,

something. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (40:45)

And you can't

like, well, but even a PIO is a difficult surgery, but you aren't even going to suture up that laceration and you're going to send the dog to emergency, the emergency room. The emergency hospital is like, we'll wait 12 hours. Like we are dealing with that PIO. We're dealing with that hit by car. So, you know, ⁓ now if you're an internal, internal medicine boarded specialist, that's totally different. That's totally different.

Joanna (40:50)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Like, yeah,

absolutely.

Dr. Cliff Redford (41:15)

But as general

practitioner, ⁓ I think people need, need to know if you're willing to do, ⁓ if you're able, it's not even willing. Are you able to do surgery? And if you're not able to do surgery, that's, ⁓ that's a bit of a problem in my eyes, but it's not a popular opinion in everybody's, ⁓ brains and whatever. That's, that's who I am. Yeah.

Joanna (41:21)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. But there's

room, you know, I guess there's room for every, for all kinds of facts. yeah, I just, I just personally, I'm so, I'm, I'm surprised and pleasantly surprised at how much I'm enjoying surgery. Like it was like, my God, I can't believe it. I really thought it would, it would, it's so fun. It's so fun. It's just like, yeah, it's, it's just so.

Dr. Cliff Redford (41:39)

Well, there's definitely room for everybody. yeah, yeah.

It's so much fun.

Yeah. What's your favorite? What's

your favorite surgery? Okay.

Joanna (42:00)

I haven't done much. I've only literally

castrated a dog and done a half a spay and done some sutures. I closed up ⁓ a cat bite on a cat and got into a scrap. I did some intradermal sutures on the cat. For me, I'm like, it looked a little like Frankenstein, but everyone was like, that was a really nice show. was my first time ever doing intradermal. was like, okay, I'll take it. I like it. It's fun. I really, I'm loving it. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (42:09)

Right.

Woohoo!

That's a skill. Intradermals are tough. Like

hidden sutures are tough. Burying that knot. A little tricky.

Joanna (42:31)

my gosh, it is. Yeah, and cat skin apparently

is a little bit strange. I don't know. But ⁓ my gosh. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (42:37)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Give me a Labrador, like a four-year-old Labrador to bury, bury the knot and hide the sutures. So easy. So easy. ⁓

yeah. Yeah. So easy. They make us look so good. ⁓ the, the, for me, the best is bladder surgeries. Like just the concept, like we're cutting into this bladder. We're cutting into this organ that looks like a leather water balloon, pulling out these stones.

Joanna (42:51)

Totally.

I'm, yeah, can't wait. I haven't done that yet. Yeah. And the stones. Yeah.

Insane. Insane. It heals. It's miraculous. I still don't, yeah, I don't understand. Unbelievable. And I know we've talked about this, but yeah, I haven't ever seen a bladder surgery yet and I'm really excited to remove some stones. I can't wait.

Dr. Cliff Redford (43:05)

sewing it up and sticking it back in and then it heals. what? Unbelievable.

We did one, we did one like six months ago

on a little eight or nine pound Pomeranian, a thousand stones, a thousand stones. Now most of them were like the size of sand, but some of them were the size of grapes. Like this dog could not close its bladder. Its bladder was like a bag of marble. will, I'll send you, I'll send you the video, the sound of my dog say hi.

Joanna (43:26)

No. ⁓

Poor buddy.

⁓

That's awful.

Dr. Cliff Redford (43:51)

The, uh, oh my rescue, uh, my rescue Arctic dogs. Holy geez. Um, he's, he's, is, he's, Bo is, uh, I haven't weighed him in a while, but I'm guessing he's probably 50 pounds. He's going to be about 50. He's a short. He's a corgi shepherd res dog cross, right? Um, so he's short, but he's already heavy and thick. He is, he is, he's a bit of a, he's a bit of a savage in the sense of, uh,

Joanna (43:53)

I know your path.

Is he big now?

Really?

Is he doing well?

Dr. Cliff Redford (44:19)

like he still chews on stuff and he

Joanna (44:21)

Does he

get the others into trouble like Talia who's like a goody goody? Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (44:24)

A little bit, a little bit. And he'll do

these zoomies where he does parkour. He does parkour in my house and he rearranges the furniture by bouncing off of it. And he's now discovered how much he loves playing fetch with this ball that we have. And like this morning I was, you know, 5 AM I'm working out in my basement and he's learned that I will throw the ball three times between every single set. So I'll do my squats.

Joanna (44:29)

Hahaha! ⁓

Dr. Cliff Redford (44:52)

And then I'll go outside, throw the ball three times, come in, do another set of squats. And if every once in a while I forget, he literally brings the ball in and like puts it so I can't do my exercise and he'll like get in the way. Um, yeah, it's hilarious. He's, he's a lot of fun and he's, he's slowly becoming less, uh, less of a, of a goofball. Um, but hopefully he, no, he's only, uh, what's the date today?

Joanna (44:56)

He he.

my god, he's like, dad, this is two. One left, yes.

Is he a year or older over a year do you think? He's a puppy.

Dr. Cliff Redford (45:20)

The 30th. yesterday was eight months. Yeah. He's still a baby.

Joanna (45:22)

30th. Oh my, little one.

Dr. Cliff Redford (45:25)

His mom is probably coming to our clinic. So Arthur, so the, the animal shelter in a Cali wit has reached out to us, reached out to Arthur. need a technician for 10 days. They have another vet going up and no technician. So they reached out to Arthur and they said, can you come in September for 10 days? I'm so jealous. Cause they've got like 15 hours of sun, ⁓ in September.

Joanna (45:28)

Really?

What? ⁓

Yaaaa

Dr. Cliff Redford (45:51)

And they said, could you bring a second tech? Kathleen's joining them. So Arthur and Kathleen are going up and then they reached out to me and they said, Hey, your dog's mom, Pinky is still here. And the animal rescue in Ottawa that normally takes our dogs don't want to take Pinky because they didn't get the puppies. Like it was something that there are a little, like we didn't get the puppies, so we're not going to take the mom. Okay.

Joanna (45:55)

Wow.

Okay, they're being, yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (46:20)

I guess, whatever. ⁓ or maybe that's just a story and they're just, they're just scamming us into taking pinky. But I basically said, why don't we, when Arthur and Kathleen come back, they can bring mom and Kathleen owns Bjorn, one of the puppies. Callie owns two of the puppies. So we have four of the puppies that are clinic. The other three are scattered throughout the GTA and live in their best lives. But we're going to, mom's going to get to see your kids again.

Joanna (46:27)

Pinkie.

she adopted one. No.

You

Dr. Cliff Redford (46:48)

Uh,

yeah, it's going to be a reunion video and it's going to go on Tik TOKs and go viral. Uh, all this cute music. Yeah. So we are, we're working with a dog rescue in the area and we're like, you guys take it over. Look, we may end up finding a client that'll take her. That would be, that would be epic. But even if it doesn't, we're just happy that she'll find a home. Um, and.

Joanna (46:51)

my god, can't Yeah, so you'll find her a home.

Yeah. Yeah.

I wonder if

she'll... I wonder how the reunion would be. You never know. You never know. Yeah, it could be. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (47:15)

Yeah. Is she going to recognize her dog? look,

Thalia, we have a half sister of Thalia that comes to the clinic. Same father, different mother. Um, and, uh, Holly is the dog's name and Holly's about two years older than Thalia. When Thalia first met Holly, Thalia was about two, two or three. There was a, there was a different connection. Like Thalia has always been good with dogs.

Joanna (47:39)

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (47:42)

But she's a little like, I'm going to stand off and I'm going to let you sniff me. And I'm going to be a little bit submissive and cautious. No, she saw Holly and right away, her ears perked up her tail star wagon. They started sniffing each other and they became besties right away. Obviously she doesn't realize, Hey, your dad must be my dad. But there was just some sort of internal connection, some sort of like.

Joanna (47:56)

Cute! ⁓

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (48:11)

soulmate, if you want to call it like that sort of thing.

And they connected instantly. So I firmly believe that if Pinkie doesn't recognize her puppies as her puppies, which I think she will, they'll at least be, ⁓ I am bonded to you immediately more so than any other dog for whatever reason. ⁓ Yeah, hopefully. ⁓

Joanna (48:26)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

We'll see. ⁓

Dr. Cliff Redford (48:37)

I think it'd

be funny if the dogs go and meet her and she barks and they sit. They just automatically go, ⁓ I have to listen to you automatically. Yes, mom, we remember. So it's very, very sweet. We're very excited.

Joanna (48:45)

Yeah, mum. Yeah. Mum.

So cute.

that's awesome. Good for Kathleen and Arthur. Exciting.

Dr. Cliff Redford (48:53)

There you go. it's so much fun. like

Bjorn and, ⁓ so Kathleen's dog Bjorn and Bo are the best of friends. And yeah, quite often, cause her partner's a paramedic. their, their work schedule is kind of crazy and Bjorn or Bo comes to the clinic probably three times a week, just cause our lives are crazy as well. He'll go in, we go into the back door. He goes straight to the laundry bin.

Joanna (49:04)

Does she bring him to the clinic? I love it. OK.

Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (49:22)

sniffs the laundry and then gets excited if he can smell bow. It's the funniest thing. It's the funniest thing. So it works out. It's it's it's works out great. ⁓ I don't know what's going on. Someone from Milwaukee is calling me. It's like a virus or something.

Joanna (49:28)

So cute. ⁓

⁓ yeah, Cliff,

we shout out to Saipan and Lauren and we're going at some point. Like we're going, like I'm going with you. let's go at some point. Like not, you know, when at some point.

Dr. Cliff Redford (49:45)

Yeah, me too. I got to figure this out. Yeah. All right.

Can you do, you could do that as part of your school?

Joanna (49:57)

Yeah, I can. can go next year. No, not next year, the year after.

Dr. Cliff Redford (49:58)

Look into it. I'd go like.

⁓ See I'm thinking like this January February coming up I'd like to go

Joanna (50:08)

See,

I have it, we have it, we're meeting fans, or I'm in school then.

Dr. Cliff Redford (50:14)

but don't you do placements still? Or is the platements always summertime?

Joanna (50:16)

You do placements,

it has to either be, so Christmas, which is only three weeks, or ⁓ Easter, which is a month in April, March, April, and then in the summertime. But this next year I have, we don't have a summer next, like next year at this time, anyway, it's complicated because I'm going to be going into final year, but whatever.

Dr. Cliff Redford (50:26)

huh. ⁓ huh.

Right, right. But there's possibility

at Christmas or Easter. Are you heading back to Toronto or no, you're staying?

Joanna (50:44)

I

tend to go, Christmas time I tend to do like, I go to Florida to see my family. And then Easter, I think I'm gonna do two weeks at the clinic in Scotland, but we could discuss. I mean, I have four weeks, so. Okay. You've been, yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (50:51)

Uh-huh. Right.

Yeah. I'm not a patient person, as you know. So as I've been thinking about this, like,

is my license good because they're considered a US, US Island. I mean, I obviously have passed Navla. I think I can get a temporary license pretty easily. Uh, I am going to reach out to Lauren and have her and her team look into it. Cause I was, I was thinking about going like late 2025 or early 26.

Joanna (51:10)

Hmm

Yeah, how does that work?

Okay. Yeah.

Okay, keep me posted. keep me posted. Yeah, because I think if you signed off on it, would, we would just say that you would, But yeah. ⁓

Dr. Cliff Redford (51:32)

for two weeks. Yeah, Yeah.

Yeah, we can figure it out. Yeah. I would like literally when you go back

to school in September, say, Hey, I have this opportunity to go and volunteer to spay neuter clinic in Saipan, uh, with an accredited veterinarian, da da da da, you know, how can we do this? Can I get out of class for a week or a week and a half?

Joanna (51:58)

Yeah.

They don't, well,

I can't say they're sort of against spay and neuter clinics now because they've had experiences in the past where they haven't been totally kosher. I think we would, we shouldn't talk about this on air, but I think, yeah, something like that. But I think we would have to, I don't even know, figure something else out, whatever, yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (52:12)

Right. There's just parties.

We're not, it's okay to talk about it. Cause

we're not going to do anything that's, that's not recognized, not accepted. You know, we're not messing around with your schooling for just a fun time in Saipan. mean, it's going to be a lot of work, but we could always wait. Yeah. Well, that's why I was thinking Christmas. Yeah. Who knows? We will figure it out. You are on vacation. I've tied up enough of your time. ⁓

Joanna (52:24)

Yeah. Yeah.

No.

It would be cool if she was there too also, cause I don't know. I wonder when she's gonna be amazing.

Thanks for having me. It is 10 to five. 10 to five. I'm gonna go pick up my niece who's doing an internship here, which is why I'm here. And then, yeah, and then we fly. We fly to Montreal on Friday together. Yeah, I'll let you know when I'm, well, I'm not, yeah, I have, my schedule is, so I'm gonna go down to, I'm gonna go to Montreal, then I'm gonna go down to Massachusetts to visit my old theater. I haven't been in since I moved.

Dr. Cliff Redford (52:49)

time is it there right now? It's got to be dinner time. Yeah. So you're to go out now and have some pizza and ⁓

⁓

you're coming back to Canada. Beauty, but not Toronto.

Joanna (53:17)

and then Maine to visit friends from the theatre who moved to Maine. So I'm, it's nuts, but I will let you know when I'm in Toronto and I'll swing by and say hi. Yeah. ⁓ boy.

Dr. Cliff Redford (53:17)

Beauty.

Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. I'll get you in and you can do a bladder surgery. Excellent.

Um, I'm super proud of you. I'm super glad that we met all those years ago. Uh, you inspire me and you inspire listeners. So keep up the good work and we will talk, uh, on, on air. We'll talk soon in six months, but, uh, we'll talk regularly as we normally do via WhatsApp. Awesome. Everyone be kind to animals.

Joanna (53:34)

Thank you. I know. Thanks, Cliff. Thanks very much. Thanks for your support. Yeah.

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me again.

Yes, please do. Okay, bye.

Dr. Cliff Redford (53:55)

All right. Cheers. Bye bye.