Dennis Davis - from Dennis Davis Bucking Bulls.

In this episode of Vet Life, Dr. Cliff Redford interviews Dennis Davis, a former bull rider turned bull trainer. They discuss the intricacies of bull riding, the training techniques used to prepare bulls for competition, and the misconceptions surrounding the sport. Dennis shares his journey from rodeo cowboy to trainer, the daily life of a bull, and the challenges faced by both bulls and cowboys in the rodeo industry. The conversation also touches on the future of bulls like Playmate, owned by UFC president Dana White, and the goals for breeding and competition.

First, if you haven't watched my film and live in Canada (or have one of those VPN things), you can watch it here:

https://youtu.be/oMUx3yuyznc?si=oagpg7bGnpbuyXlJ

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Transcript

Dr. Cliff Redford (00:01)

Hey everyone, Dr. Cliff here. Another cool episode, hopefully cool. Hopefully fun episode of Vet Life with me, Dr. Cliff. A little bit different today, really different. I am interviewing my new friend Dennis from Bucking Bulls. Dennis is a, I guess a retired bull rider ⁓ and now in the business of

training bulls to be good at bucking cowboys off of them. ⁓ And I know this is kind of an unusual topic and I get it, a lot of us don't support bull riding and the rodeo. Certainly I don't think any sane person who loves animals supports bull fighting.

But I wanted to keep my mind open and I hope you guys keep your mind open to at least listening to what Dennis has to say. I'm recording this before I've interviewed him yet, so let's see. ⁓ What I'm really interested in is, I mean I wanna learn. I just wanna, before I finalize my opinion, I wanna learn more about the industry. But what really got me interested in talking to Dennis is I read an article of the training he did with a new

Bull named Playmate. Now Playmate is owned by Dana White, the owner of UFC or the president of the UFC, president and CEO of UFC and I guess WWE because the UFC owns WWE. I'm not exactly sure how that works, but Playmate was having trouble being a fucking bull. ⁓ And so Dennis used sort of desensitization techniques.

and ⁓ training techniques with a lot of patience and a lot of positive reward. And the same techniques that we use to train a little Chihuahua or a giant Great Dane or any of those cats and dogs that we typically try and train. So that's why I really wanna talk to him. I'm fascinated by this ⁓ opportunity and sort of how different or now how similar it is training.

you know a beast that probably weighs what 2000 pounds? ⁓ I don't even know see I don't even know how big a bull is. ⁓ Anyway so stay tuned keep your minds open you're gonna learn something I'm sure and get ready for a fun interview.

All right, everyone, welcome back to VetLife. As I said, as I promised, I've got a real life cowboy here, Dennis Davis, on the line. Dennis, say hi, and why don't you tell everybody who you are and what you're, a quick history, I guess, about your life.

Dennis Davis (02:43)

Okay.

Right, gotcha. Yeah, well, hello everyone. First of all, my name is Dennis Davis and I'm from down here in the West of Houston area and I was rodeo cowboy pretty much all my life. And so now I raise buck and bulls and train them sort of like a trainer for football team. My business is very similar to the horse racing industry. I have a number of customers who ⁓ invest in buck and bulls and I

Find events for those bulls and I'll haul them around the country for them to compete.

Dr. Cliff Redford (03:33)

Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. So ⁓ you were in the thick of it for a while there. How long did you ride?

Dennis Davis (03:42)

I wrote from the time I was, that I can remember, know, ⁓ pre-teens up until about maybe 15 years ago. I am 57 years old now. So I, when my children were still young yet, I broke my shoulder at my very last event. And I got to thinking, I said, you know, I'm not ready to hang it up, but it's time I should hang it up. It's not only dangerous for me now, now it's dangerous for the kids, for the family.

Dr. Cliff Redford (03:54)

my goodness.

How did you get into this though? Is this a long, long standing tradition in your family?

Dennis Davis (04:17)

Yes, it's a long-standing tradition and then the area where I'm from and where I kind of grew up and went to school Everyone had some sort of rodeo arena practice arena in their backyard. It was just my my area There was a lot of rodeo people so that was the thing to do kind of normal It's just like a Friday night football Well, you know, we'd go play football on Friday and Saturday and Sunday we rodeo and then after I got older and and out of college I went back to rodeo and and did that full-time for a while and

Here we are today, still ⁓ playing cowboy.

Dr. Cliff Redford (04:53)

Yeah, it's such a big deal for you. I remember I was in when I was in vet school my final year, so this would have been for late 97 early 98 I can't remember when the exact rotation was but I was doing large animal medicine right now I'm a cat and dog guy grew up in the city and one of the professors or one of the interns to get his specialty in large animal surgery mostly in equine was a Texas boy

Dennis Davis (04:53)

Yeah.

All right.

Dr. Cliff Redford (05:22)

He grew up, you know, born and raised. And there was two things that struck me that sort of got me to realize how ingrained this rodeo is with you guys, just like say hockey is with us Canadians, is, well, I guess one is in rodeo related. We had a dog or a patient that had been shot ⁓ and we threw up the x-rays and he was able to just look at the x-rays and pick out the size of the bullets because

Dennis Davis (05:22)

okay.

Dr. Cliff Redford (05:50)

hunting and rifling was in his life, his whole life. But the big thing with rodeo is he was a healer. I don't know if I'm using the term right, but he would throw the lasso and yeah, he grabbed the back feet of the cattle. So he taught us all how to tie and whip it over our heads. I'm butchering this, but eventually lasso. And so we would set up ambushes.

Dennis Davis (06:02)

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Right.

Dr. Cliff Redford (06:18)

and when a classmate went around the corner, we'd scare them, they would run, and then we'd try and last sue them. They don't do that anymore because it would be too much, it'd be some human resources issues. I think there'd be some assault charges if we did that. It really is a part of your life, ⁓ This ⁓ is a normal thing.

Dennis Davis (06:25)

That's a traditional thing.

Absolutely.

That's the normal thing. I rope myself. Apparently your guy was what ⁓ we call a team roper. I'm sure he roped the head and other things himself, but his specialty probably was healing. And you called it right, he's a healer. And as far as us roping each other, that's the norm. And if you couldn't rope your buddy and knock him down flat on the face, then you weren't a real cowboy.

Dr. Cliff Redford (07:06)

That's right. There you go. see time up in under two seconds or whatever the record's gotta be. ⁓ Yeah, for sure. ⁓ So, I mean, it looks like a tough sport. And as you said, how long did you compete professionally?

Dennis Davis (07:07)

Right?

That's right.

Thanks.

I compete professionally, let's see, from probably 92 to ⁓ probably the mid 2000s when I finally got hurt. Prior to that was just lot of amateur rodeos and I continued to go to amateur rodeos even ⁓ as a professional because in the rodeo world it's a little different from other sports, know, like football and basketball. You don't have anyone drafting you. Well, the PBR does have a team just now starting the last couple.

years, but back in my day, they didn't have anyone drafting us. It's just whenever we felt that we were able to compete with some of the professional guys, we would go out and buy what we call our pro card. ⁓ They would give us a permit and to prove or to earn your pro card, you had to go to a number of rodeos and earn at least $2,500. So I was able to do that as a weekend. So I was deemed as a pro. And so I was able to enter the upper ranks.

Dr. Cliff Redford (08:06)

Mm.

Dennis Davis (08:20)

know, type rodeos from then on out. But that's a very expensive hobby or a way to make a living. And so I also competed in, continued to compete in amateur rodeos as well. So I did a little bit of everything.

Dr. Cliff Redford (08:31)

Thank

Yeah, yeah, and then you blew your shoulder out ⁓ And then you went into like is this a normal to explain exactly you you you sort of described it like being a trainer for the NFL So you get these bulls to do push-ups and they got to do the combine and how does this work?

Dennis Davis (08:53)

Right.

Close. Well, after the shoulder injury, during this time probably, I don't know, maybe 10 years prior to that, I worked for Igloo Products. I started working and then still rodeoing on the weekend that makes the Igloo ice chest. And I would pass by this ranch every day on the way to work. And I knew the guy who owned the ranch. He was a PRCA card holder by the name of Billy James.

Dr. Cliff Redford (09:18)

I

Dennis Davis (09:28)

He was a rodeo stock contractor back when I was riding. And I'd always look over there at Billy's place on my way to work where I sat in my cubicle behind my little computer there. so after the shoulder break, I just decided to stop by his place one day because I had read somewhere that he was going to Vegas to put on an event in conjunction with the actual finals that was going on. And that's something that I've always wanted to do if I wasn't competing, or at least.

just be a part of the finals and just be out there in that atmosphere some kind of way. And sure enough, the only job that he had for me at the time was to ⁓ build a database to house the genetics. He was considered as a breeder, so he had these different types of genetics, reputable genetics, sort of like in the quarter horse world. And you would ⁓ sell or you would market or value these genetics according to how those bulls worked out in the past.

Well, you had to be able to prove that. So what we would do is we needed a place to house this data so we could submit it to someone like Pfizer, Animal Health, Genetics, and also to ABVI, the American Bucking Bull, Inc. So we could verify, you know, those genetics to say, hey, this little young bull here is out of this world champion. So that increases the value of that bull. And so nevertheless, that project didn't take me long at all. I mean, within

Dr. Cliff Redford (10:40)

you

Dennis Davis (10:56)

a month or so I was able to really work that out. But he kind of kept me on doing some other stuff and I've worked some PR stuff with him. And then one day he comes to my office and he goes, hey, you want to go to lunch? Which wasn't out of the ordinary. We do that once a month. And he says, ⁓ my trainer just quit on me. How would you like to be a Buckingbull trainer? I was like, heck yes. We call it flank man because I'm the guy who puts the flank on the bulls. He says, how would you like to be my flank man? I was like,

Billy, that's exactly what I signed up for. I didn't sign up for all this other. And so that day, back in 2012, we started working on Bulls and I've been dealing with Bulls every day since then. That company decided to close the doors in 2018. And ⁓ of course I didn't have enough. I was just getting started. I was meeting people, ⁓ getting familiar with going to Vegas every year now.

Dr. Cliff Redford (11:49)

you

Dennis Davis (11:54)

I didn't want to stop. what I did, I called up a lot of these customers, a lot of people that I knew and said, hey, if I continue on with Dennis Davis Bucking Bulls, because at the time I had some property that I had just started purchasing and I had enough to put out pins and arena and things like that. So I figured if I had enough people or enough followers, I could make it happen. And sure enough, nearly everyone I talked to wanted to come on board.

Dr. Cliff Redford (12:21)

you

Dennis Davis (12:22)

That's how I got started with Dennis Davis Bucking Bulls. But then what a trainer is, it's very similar to the NFL trainer. I mean, I don't actually teach a bull how to buck per se. I mean, there is a small dummy that we put on the back of the young bulls. There's no stimulants. There's no tying around the testicles. You know, there's some myths out there about that. And we basically allow those bulls to buck out across the arena and just determine if that bull wants to be a Bucking Bull or if not.

Dr. Cliff Redford (12:34)

Okay.

Dennis Davis (12:52)

And if he wants to be a bucking bull, then we continue to grow him up, continue to practice him once a month, and hopefully he just kind of, you he gets better. Well, in the meantime, it's up to me to, ⁓ when I say evaluate his health, just from the outside perspective, just to know those bulls, because it's just like, you know, at home with your family, you know if something's going on with one of your children, or if someone's crying, or if some, you know, you know the same thing with the bulls. So it's up to me to...

Dr. Cliff Redford (13:17)

you

Dennis Davis (13:20)

you know, get that bull to the vet to get him checked out if it's to that extent or if it's something that I just need to just change his feed ration or something. And so as this bull competes, some bulls seem to be overweight and I says, okay, well I'll take this bull back and I'll need to jog him more or I need to exercise him more. Or if a bull doesn't like certain arenas or if he doesn't like certain, you know, areas of the bucking chute, then it's up to me to put the bull in the bucking chute.

get on him myself and not necessarily buck him anymore, but just to get that bull familiar with that territory so they can continue on to, you know, to compete, you know, effectively. And that's basically what a trainer is. I was having this conversation with a friend of mine on the way, on the long drive home from Springfield, Missouri. And I told him, I said, you know, I would not, I would not house or train other people's bulls other than myself.

Dr. Cliff Redford (14:11)

Thank

Dennis Davis (14:15)

if I had to quit this and go out and just get a regular

job. Because I feel that in order to be effective in the bucking bull industry or pretty much in the competition bucking bull industry, it has to be very hands on and basically around the clock evaluation, you know, of these bulls. So that's the position I'm in now. I get to know these bulls. I know their mannerisms. And that's basically how we communicate. They let me know when they feel good and they let me know when they don't.

Dr. Cliff Redford (14:43)

So I want to get back later to the What's called the bullshit that some of us think is true? Regarding the stimulation and how you sort of air quotes force these guys to buck but you started talking about you know training these these guys and these bulls and you know to stick to sit in those what is the containment right before they hit the The bucking what's that called?

Dennis Davis (15:07)

it's a bucking shoot we call it a shoot yes

Dr. Cliff Redford (15:09)

The shoot, ⁓

okay. You had a ton of work to do at Dana White's Bull Playmate, yeah?

Dennis Davis (15:17)

Yes, ⁓ Playmate, see these cows or bovine in general are very methodical. ⁓ And they're so, they don't recognize us. Some people say, hey man, that bull knows you or Dennis, hey, you you're a bull whisper. You know, that's not it. They're so articulate in identifying your mannerism, the way you walk, the way you move, the way you sound. So if I come to the pens to feed,

and I'm in a rush because it's raining or something's going on or I don't have much time and I'm really walking faster than I normally do, that causes the bulls to be on alert, like, hey, what's going on? This object that comes to see us every day all of a sudden, it's just kind of sort of changed. Well, in the bucking shoot, a bull will go in there. When we purchased this bull, he was actually pretty decent in the shoot. We had a couple of guys to get on him and there's a way you can kind of actually...

I guess, spoil a bull is, ⁓ that may not be the correct way to say it, but you can spoil an animal. If an animal kicks up in the shoot and you get off of him, it tells him, well, that's what I need to do to get him off of me. Well, then, ⁓ take him to a place and the guy just kept getting off, kept getting off. So the bull kept getting worse and kept getting worse. I contributed to Will, maybe the guy just was not.

Dr. Cliff Redford (16:29)

Yeah.

Dennis Davis (16:43)

was not ready for the bull. Not that he was afraid, but maybe he felt that the bull was just out of his league and he was just being over cautious. But at the same time, this bull was getting spoiled because every time he would kick, the guy would get up. And so he just kept kicking. ⁓ The guy got disqualified from that event. The next event we went to is that the bull was so good, he was automatically seated in the world finals. And the number one guy in the world got on him and he had problems. Now, when the number one guy in the world had problems,

Dr. Cliff Redford (16:57)

Hmm.

Dennis Davis (17:12)

I knew that now I have a problem.

I have to go back to the basics, you know, with this bull. Now, keep in mind, I haven't had him for, you know, for about a month or so, but I identified right away that he needed, you know, the sheet work. So that finals day with Jose Vitor Lemmy was on a Thursday. Friday afternoon back here in Wallace, Texas, I had this bull in the chute and on him, you myself.

Dr. Cliff Redford (17:16)

Mm. Okay.

Dennis Davis (17:42)

and we spent countless hours in that shoot. He wanted to kick, and whenever he'd kick, I just would not let go. I'd stay there. I'd put like a, you know how you see show calves will have like a halter? Some show calves, like, you know, I put a halter on him, tied him to the front, got on him just to let him know that, it's fine just sitting here. Of course it was a soft cotton halter. And I do that periodically, and he has not flinched.

Dr. Cliff Redford (17:56)

Mm-hmm

Dennis Davis (18:12)

since then. So I don't believe I'm totally out of the woods yet because I know this bull is high strung and it's not that I just necessarily don't trust him. It's just that we're going to a lot of ⁓ reputable type televised events and so this needs to work. My process needs to work. So still two or three days a week I'll take him and put him in the the shoot and we'll just kind of just get acclimated with it you know for an hour or so a day.

Dr. Cliff Redford (18:16)

Okay. So,

Dennis Davis (18:39)

And then he'll go back to his little small pasture that he's in and get ready for the next day. And what I did with that, like I said, these animals are so methodical, that method of doing it over and over and over again, well, whenever I go to a Springfield, whenever I go to Springfield event or any other PBR event and I put this bull in the chute, in his mind, we're just practicing again. This guy's gonna get off of me in a second. I don't have to act up. And it works.

Dr. Cliff Redford (18:59)

Thank

Hmm.

Yeah, yeah. Now, but you go, once that shoot opens up, Playmate's gotta, he's gotta go crazy. So, like.

Dennis Davis (19:15)

Oh yeah, now once the shit opens

up, he's on his own.

Dr. Cliff Redford (19:20)

Yeah, there was no, there's no worry, and obviously I know nothing about this industry, there's no worry that you're desensitizing him and getting him to be sort of calm or cooperative in the shoot, and then you, now you have a professional rider jump on him and he just sits there, like that's not a worry.

Dennis Davis (19:41)

Well, it's not a worry because it used to be a worry until I've experienced it before. Just keep in mind when I worked with ⁓ the James Gang, the company I told you I the computer work for, I had to my disposable 300 fresh brand new untouched bulls every January to work with. So I've worked with thousands of bulls, thousands of bulls. So it was just a matter of, I wouldn't call it desensitizing them.

It was just letting them know that, here's the process because they're willing to long to go along with the process. If you, if you teach them and if you continue to expose them to the process. So, you know, it's not that he's desensitized and don't want you on his back. He just knows that in this particular area, we're going to sit here for awhile. But then when this gate opens, I can do whatever I want to do. And then he just goes back to be a, like I said, a crazy bucking bull. Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (20:33)

Nice.

Yeah, and so what I sort of realized in the last couple of weeks, like these bulls get ranked themselves. And how is that? Like how do you, how do they, I mean other than tossing the cowboy off faster, are there stall points? Like how do they get ranked?

Dennis Davis (20:49)

Yes they do.

Mm-hmm. All right.

It actually is. We can agree on that. It is style points. There's a few points that the judges actually look at because at these bull ridings, you have a set of judges that are evaluating the bulls and you have a set of judges that are evaluating the riders. First and foremost, they're evaluating the riders to see how in control of the ride that they're in. Sometimes you can hang on a bull like you're hanging on for dear life, like as if a car was pulling you down the road. You're not going to get very many points for that.

But if you're able to just kind of set up and you're riding with some style, you get points. But from a bull standpoint, there's kick. How high his back end or his butt comes up over the top of his back. And then there's buck, how far he comes up on the front end, like off of his front feet and up into the air. And then there's spin, about how well he spins. And then there's also a feature for intensity.

to see how much action he has. It doesn't look like he's just going through the motions. looks like he's really trying to buck. So those are some of the characteristics that the judges used in order to score the Bulls. And it's 25 points per category.

Dr. Cliff Redford (22:08)

Right. And Playmate likes doing this.

Dennis Davis (22:11)

⁓ he loves it. He loves it. Here recently we've been going a bunch and he's calmed down. When I say calmed down a lot, he's all the way calmed down. He has not flinched in the shoot. When I'm going to the events, it's hard to believe that I've got, for a lot of these people that have got this bull to this particular condition he's in because they'll still ask me, is he okay in the shoot?

Dr. Cliff Redford (22:13)

Yeah.

Dennis Davis (22:38)

Because I got, you my legs were banged up. I can't be going through this and that. I said, hey, you have nothing to worry about. This sucker stands like a showsteer, and which he has. Ever since those first two incidents, and when I brought him back and put that strenuous workout for about a week, he cut all that out and hasn't flinched or bucked not one time since. In the bucket shoot.

Dr. Cliff Redford (22:58)

Alright. Can a bull become world champion, for lack of a better word, if they're always beaten? If they're always beaten by the 8 seconds, it's 8 seconds right? The cowboy has to stay on? So, if you have a bull with the best kick and spin and style and action, but he's always...

Dennis Davis (23:13)

Right. Right. Eight seconds.

Dr. Cliff Redford (23:26)

being ridden fully for eight seconds. It's almost like he's defeated every time. I know it's probably not, doesn't work that way, but can he still be world champion? does world champion, they gotta toss some cowboys?

Dennis Davis (23:38)

Well, ⁓ it looks nice and it looks cool whenever they toss the cowboys, but it is, by the cowboys riding them, riding the bulls don't determine anything about them being world champion. Right now, the best bull in the world, in the back back world champion bull now is the bull called Man Hater. And ⁓ Man Hater gets rode, I wouldn't say very often, but close to maybe 50 % of the time, but his kick.

his buck, his spin, his intensity is always above the other bulls. And as strange as that may seem, the real cowboys or the really good cowboys, it's a little easier to ride those type of bulls than the bulls that don't do so much of the kick. Because the more a bull kicks and the more he that he rears up and bucks and drops, the less work that the cowboy has to do. You're basically just kind of sitting there in a pivot area.

But if the bull didn't have that type of motion, then you would have to work more of your own body towards his front end or pushing off, sitting straight up, or just trying to get over whenever he turns to spin. So the bull man hater, really, really great bull, gets ridden a lot. He's probably going to be a repeat champion again this year, even though there some upcoming bulls. a couple of years ago, there was a bull by the name of Wupa.

Dr. Cliff Redford (24:54)

Okay.

Dennis Davis (25:07)

owned by a good friend of mine out of New Mexico. That bull was the same way, highest, well, not the highest scoring record, but the highest scoring, scoring the PBR was scored on this bull of 98 points. He was also a world champion bucking bull. But like we always say, and a lot of people don't know, there's not a bull that can't be rode and there's not a cowboy that can't be thrown.

Dr. Cliff Redford (25:26)

you

Very good, very good. they would, so these cowboys, if the cowboys want to win the world champion belt buckle, they want to ride bulls like manhater.

Dennis Davis (25:30)

So at some point, at some point...

Yes. Now the guys who are trying to win, those are the guys, those are the bulls given a choice. Those are the bulls that they choose. Yeah. They want the, cause you have to ride the best to be the best. ⁓ Yes. There are certain, there are certain rounds. Sometimes there's just take an average event. Just say there's four rounds of bucking going on. Three of those rounds could possibly are all draws. Just, you know, however.

Dr. Cliff Redford (25:53)

And do they have any choice at all, the Cowboys? Yeah.

Dennis Davis (26:11)

not the traditional pull the name out of the hat, but like a computer simulated draw. And then the very last round, we called it the 15-15 in the PBR is where they would take the top 15 guys in the top 15 bulls. And the number one guy going into the final round gets to choose which bull he wants to get on. And then the number two, three, all the way down to 15, the 15th guy is left with the last bull that didn't get chosen.

Dr. Cliff Redford (26:40)

Alright, so it's kind of like, you know, the top hockey team gets to play the bottom hockey team in the playoffs. I mean, they don't really get to choose, but there's sort of that opportunity where you put in the work for the first three rounds, so you get the cream of the crop.

Dennis Davis (26:46)

Yeah.

Yes, the opportunity to the creative craft.

Dr. Cliff Redford (26:59)

Yeah, yeah. And then

these bull riders might, well surely they might have a different kind of style of ride or they do better on a different type of bull than their buddy who's number two. So, you know, they may not always want the same bull because it sort of works with their style of riding as well.

Dennis Davis (27:12)

Yes.

Yeah, and you're absolutely right. Some guys may not choose the best bull because there's only a small percentage of the guys that are even actually riding these really good bulls like that. some of these guys will pick a bull that they know they can ride so they can get a score. Because at the end of the day, that's going to determine the championship is the scores that you score. So yeah, while I really want to stick my chest out and I really want to be a cowboy, but if I really want to win this event,

Dr. Cliff Redford (27:40)

Right.

Dennis Davis (27:50)

That may not be the bull that I need to draw right now. I may need to draw something that I could actually, know, that I know in my heart I could ride.

Dr. Cliff Redford (27:59)

Right, right. So let's let's get back to some of these sort of misconceptions ⁓ That the average person, you know that especially the city boy like me has no idea I don't know if I would have guessed that there was some as you called it stimulation other people would just say You know pain to get them to buck when you're teaching them when they're young I probably wouldn't have assumed that but a lot of people do so what are some of the

misconceptions, the inaccuracies, the assumptions that city people and people who don't understand rodeo ⁓

Dennis Davis (28:38)

Well, some people, well, I know one main misconception is that people think that we take the flank rope or the rope that we put around the waist part and think that we somehow tie up their testicles. And once we tie up their testicles, that's what makes them buck. But it's actually, the rope is actually placed between the testicles and the sheath. You know, the sheath is what, you know, holds their penis. So the rope kind of goes in the middle and

Dr. Cliff Redford (29:02)

Mm-hmm.

Dennis Davis (29:08)

That area is very similar to our elbows where we have the, know how if you touch a certain nerve in your elbow, it'll kind of make you jump, but nevertheless you want to just stay away from that area. And a cow or bovine has a natural instinct to buck because they have legs going straight to the ground. They don't have arms to where they can reach around and grab something off their back. So the only form of protection or to try to get something off of their back.

Dr. Cliff Redford (29:22)

Mm-hmm.

Dennis Davis (29:37)

is to kick up and buck them off. Well, whenever you have that cotton

Dr. Cliff Redford (29:39)

Mm-hmm.

Dennis Davis (29:42)

rope wrapped around them, of course they don't want, you know, want the rope on them. So what they try to do is kick the rope off. Some try a little harder than others. And then you have the cowboy that's actually sitting on him. I he definitely doesn't, you know, may not want the cowboy in their back. You know, and I say that because some bulls seem to just really love this. So just for the sake of conversation, I'm saying that the bulls don't want you on their backs. So they're going to try to

Dr. Cliff Redford (29:50)

Mm-hmm

Dennis Davis (30:07)

knock you off, that's why they buck. It's not because we do anything to them to hurt them or to shock them or to stimulate them.

Dr. Cliff Redford (30:16)

Yeah, it's like, you know, take two young boys in any culture anywhere around the world and the odds are they're gonna be wrestling each other for half the day. That's just...

Dennis Davis (30:27)

Yes, right, absolutely.

Dr. Cliff Redford (30:30)

and they have a blast and yeah they get hurt a little bit ⁓ and usually they get hurt, they laugh about it and then they go at it again. ⁓ So like these bulls, again, if they don't, how much does a bull weigh? It's gotta be a couple thousand pounds. So if they don't wanna do it, they're not doing it.

Dennis Davis (30:40)

Yes.

Yeah, there's only right.

Yeah. On the average, on the, on the low end, there's some really good bulls. they're really athletic and they weigh 13 or 1400 pounds, they will be on the tour. But yes, there some that are, you 2000 to, know, to 2200 pounds. So, so from, you know, 12 to 1300 to 2200 pound bulls, you know, you're not going to stop them from doing what they want to do. I mean, they're big, tough, strong animals.

Dr. Cliff Redford (31:15)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And I guess, like in Playmates situation, it sounds like he learned, okay, I'm gonna stay calm in this shoot, and then I get to have some fun. And I get to toss a cowboy off my back, potentially.

So just now we lost Mr. Dennis, his connection is a little bit spotty. He's literally out there on the trail. He was just getting back from one of these professional rides. I believe yesterday or Saturday night Playmate rode Saturday night and got some major points. I think I saw on Instagram that Playmate tossed his cowboy, his bull rider after about six seconds.

But yeah, Dennis has been ⁓ traveling all day and probably much of the night and was nice enough to come on. So we're gonna keep waiting. He's gonna log in again, I'm sure, any second now.

Hey, man.

Dennis Davis (32:16)

There we go. Sorry about that. Don't know what it was. It's 80 degrees here. ⁓ Yeah.

Dr. Cliff Redford (32:18)

Getting too hot there. Your phone's dying.

I love it. I love it. So, I'm learning so much here. So, what's the life of a bull? What is the life, what's the day to day life of Playmate? What's he doing? Is he just,

Dennis Davis (32:26)

Bye.

You know,

he is just, is actually just being a bull out on green grass, plenty hay. I feed and touch these bulls every single day, you know, playmate along with, I have about 35 in my, you know, in the program here. And that's basically their day. ⁓ Of course, along with putting them in the chute, ⁓ going through the motions as if we were actually at an event, because it's very important to me that they understand

the method so whenever they get to the event that everything is optimized from you know from there. ⁓ I don't want to we don't need to get to the event to start acting up or to start fighting or start trying to force him to do this or force him to do that. Let everything just kind of take his course according to how he'd been trained and that works really well and it shows in ⁓ his performance he's been performing well.

Dr. Cliff Redford (33:13)

Night.

Yeah, yeah. You know, as a veterinarian, you know, I'm always interested, what are the, like this is a dangerous job for cowboys. I imagine injuries force the majority of you guys out eventually. ⁓ How, what are the, do you see injuries commonly in the riding bulls or are they so big and strong that, you know, it's really just training?

Dennis Davis (33:55)

Just injuries and injuries from the bulls themselves. I see the injuries from time to time. Of course, you have sprained ankles, broken legs, pretty much the same type of injuries that the cowboys would have. ⁓ There's a very popular bull now that's just passed away in the PBR. And of course, we don't know how just yet. And of course, I was called and said, hey, you were at Springfield this weekend. Did anybody say how that bull died? I said, no, they didn't.

I mean, it could be from a number of reasons. ⁓ I've known a guy, had a really good friend with the world champion 2010 bull. Just the bull was three years old, just got up one morning, went to feed. He was laid out dead. They sometimes have a twisted gut. You know, their digestive system is very, very unique and ⁓ just died from a twisted gut. So you see those type of things, but you don't.

quite see as much injuries with the bulls, with the animals, as that you do see, that you see with the cowboys.

Dr. Cliff Redford (34:57)

Yeah, yeah, totally. So Dana White owns Playmate, right? Now does he co-own it with you or is he... you do does he hire you like do you own these bulls? Don't you you own co-own them?

Dennis Davis (35:10)

Well,

yeah, I have some bulls that if I go to a competition and I need some extra bulls I'm gonna always fill in for a customer or if a bull owner has a bull that's sick or something we can kind of fill in because a lot of the team concepts we go to ⁓ After you say you're gonna go and it's a required event You have to compete so if something's going on with the bull for whatever reasons or maybe not performing I have bulls that can fit in but as far as his playmate goes ⁓ Dana White owns him 100 %

Dr. Cliff Redford (35:18)

Okay.

Okay.

Dennis Davis (35:40)

⁓ he basically came and says, okay, it's time for us to get, you know, ⁓ another bull. says, I've got some in mind. I've gone to one of the best breeders that are out there in the industry and says, okay, what do you got? Invited me out to their ranch to stay a couple of days to check out some bulls and go through a little competition sale. And, and, we found a playmate. So, but he actually owns him 100%. And he, ⁓ basically just hires me to train and to haul and to find the events for this bull.

Dr. Cliff Redford (36:11)

Right, so I did some work when I was in high school and a little bit after high school with thoroughbreds. Samson Farms, thoroughbred and then also Armstrong Brothers, the standardbreds. And obviously with horse racing, while the farm does win money if they win especially a major race, the real money's in breeding afterwards. Is it the same?

Is the long-term goal with Playmate that he's gonna do so well in the PBR that then he's gonna be put to pasture to stud and just get to make a bunch of baby Playmates?

Dennis Davis (36:49)

Well, that's that is actually one of you know, one of the goals because you know, Dana had an exceptional bull prior to ⁓ prior to Playmate by the name of Twisted Steel. When Twisted Steel went down, we were able to draw semen on him. So we will be creating baby, you know, twisted, you know, Twisted Steel. But, you know, Dana, he's he's the president of UFC. UFC would also be a sister company.

Dr. Cliff Redford (37:13)

Mm-hmm.

Dennis Davis (37:16)

to the PBR under the umbrella of TKO. So he has also a business interest in the PBR and says, hey, know, at least I'm gonna, you know, this is one of my sister companies. I wanna compete and I wanna, you know, play the game and show my, you know, contribution as well. So we have a bull for him in the PBR, call him Dana White's, you know, playmate, which is the ultimate goal for a playmate.

Dr. Cliff Redford (37:38)

Right, right, right. I think it's fitting that most people when they reach a certain level of extreme wealth, ⁓ they get into race-horsing, or they get into sail-boating, or all of these expensive things. Dana White gets into professional bull riding. ⁓ It's pretty ⁓ classic for his brand and obviously the type of person that he is, that he likes savages regardless.

Dennis Davis (37:52)

Yeah.

Right?

You're right.

does. Well, speaking of that, he told me that the racehorsing industry is very expensive. you know, he said, this is a lot cheaper than the racehorsing industry.

Dr. Cliff Redford (38:16)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I guess, yeah, that's true. And I wonder if it's just from the history of it is a lot greater and I don't know, who knows. But I think the real thing though is I don't think expense is really what Dana White is too worried about. I think he's just attracted to the whole, I don't wanna say violence, but.

the physical nature of bull riding, both from the bulls and the cowboys. I'm gonna be hopefully meeting Dana and talking to him in about a month or so. So I like sort of picking his brain and he's quite the animal lover, a lot more than I realized. So that's my end to try and have a conversation with him. Yeah.

Dennis Davis (38:55)

Okay.

Definitely. He definitely

is. After every event, we talk about what's going on with the Bulls and what's going on with the Riders. And particularly, whenever a rider gets hurt, mean, he just sort of goes behind the scenes, contact that person, see if they need anything, make sure they're all right. Even though he understands this is the nature of what we do, because it's not a matter of ⁓ if we're going to get hurt, it's just when and how bad. So that's just all a part of it. But he still has a...

Dr. Cliff Redford (39:27)

Yeah, yeah.

Dennis Davis (39:29)

a spot for that, you know, and he's always looking after the guys if someone gets hurt, particularly on, you one of his animals.

Dr. Cliff Redford (39:37)

Yeah, yeah, excellent. So what does the near future hold for Mr. Dennis Davis? Like when's your next competition with your bulls are going to and what are you hoping to accomplish soon?

Dennis Davis (39:47)

Yeah,

well the next event that we're going to and some of Dana's ⁓ maybe not quite so popular bulls. ⁓ There's some shooting going on, so maybe not so popular bulls. We have a bull team competition finals that's going on ⁓ in Belton, TX this coming weekend. There's a lot of money on the line and the way the format is you take two bulls and in this particular case you want the guys to ride the bulls.

because you get their eight seconds added to your bull score. So that's gonna be our goal for this week. And then the following Tuesday, we go to JB Mooney, the former world champion bull rider, the $7 million cowboy they call him. We're going to his place for a competition and slow it down for a while and then go into the finals in October. Hopefully we'll just have some fresh legs up underneath us.

Dr. Cliff Redford (40:39)

Yeah, beautiful, beautiful. Listen, how can people find out about you, follow you? What's the easiest way?

Dennis Davis (40:48)

The easiest way I ask Dennis Davis Bucking Bulls and that's on all social media platforms. If you go Google Dennis Davis Bucking Bulls, you will find everything there is to know about me. I was quite shocked to see that. yeah. I really, yeah, I was asked one time a couple of years ago by a cousin, she goes, you know, have you Googled yourself? I was like.

Dr. Cliff Redford (40:54)

Lovely.

There you go, it's got it. The social media is opening up the world. Not as many secrets these days.

Dennis Davis (41:15)

Google myself for what? And I did that and all the information come up and I'm thinking, wow, well, did I do anything wrong back in the day? Because it would be here. So, fortunately, I've always kept a clean nose.

Dr. Cliff Redford (41:23)

⁓ There you go.

I think ⁓ I don't Google myself. think my ego can't handle it. And either way, I'm either going to learn something that's going to make me seem like I'm more important than I am, or it's going to remind me that I'm nowhere near as important as I think I am.

Dennis Davis (41:43)

Right? Well, I found out as far as me, I found out that it was okay. Well, that's a good feature to tell people, hey, just if you want to find out about what I do, you Google Dennis Davis Buckingbulls, it will be there.

Dr. Cliff Redford (41:56)

That's what I did, man, and it was a burn burner. I learned a lot, it was fun. Listen, man, this has been an eye-opener. You're a true gentleman, and it's been excellent. I really, really appreciate you. You've been working all weekend and probably traveling a ton, and literally you pull in, and 10 minutes later, you're on the phone with me. So I really, really appreciate it.

Dennis Davis (42:01)

Good deal.

Absolutely, any anytime, anytime.

Dr. Cliff Redford (42:23)

We'll do this again, definitely.