HEALING AFTER SUICIDE: Discussion with Reyna Aburto

There is a plague that's ravaging in this latter day generation. Mental health struggles including depression, anxiety, and other mental health challenges are prevalent in all cultures and people around the world. Unfortunately, this can often lead to the false feelings that the world would be a better place without us in it. The scourge of suicide has touched to many in our society today. In this discussion with Sister Reyna Aburto, we discuss how we as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints should approach this very sensitive topic. Within her own very difficult experiences, including the loss of her father from suicide, Sister Aburto testifies of the peace that can eventually come from really understanding the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Through many revelatory experiences, including dreams and other thinning of the veil experiences, she has found comfort in knowing there is a plan for all and that our loved ones are involved in the Gathering on the other side of the veil. There is healing that can occur as we struggle to feel God's love even in the midst of battling with these very real and tangible trials. Angels are with us through these very devastating times, and will carry us through as we keep our focus on the Savior.

YouTube: Healing After Suicide: https://youtu.be/UDxS8NPgj64

YouTube Thinning of the Veil Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@thinningoftheveil

SUPPORT THE SHOW:

Website: Thinning of the Veil: https://www.thinningoftheveil.com/

Venmo:  https://account.venmo.com/u/thinningoftheveil

PayPal: https://paypal.me/thinningoftheveil?country.x=US&locale.x=en_US

Book: "Patterns of Revelation":  https://www.amazon.com/Patterns-Revelation-Spiritual-Foundations-Hearing-ebook/dp/B0BWGLZ8VX

Email: tia@thinningoftheveil.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thinning.of.the.veil/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/share/18gHg4Bgv9/?mibextid=wwXIfr

Gathering of the Gatherers Facebook Group:  https://www.facebook.com/share/g/18tYyPohgq/?mibextid=wwXIfr

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thinning.of.the.veil

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:12

Hello, friends. Welcome to the Thinning of the Vell podcast. I'm your host, Tia Smith, and I'm going to say that today's episode is probably more for me than actually anyone else. I believe it is a tender mercy of the Lord that Sister Iberto came and decided to come on. This past Friday, I received a devastating phone call from one of my very, very close family members who has been struggling with mental health disease and felt like they were kind of going back to that place of no return. So I knew that this interview was coming up, and I drew strength from knowing that I was actually going to speak with Sister Aberto in person and that she was going to testify about some of these very, very hard and difficult topics. How this even came about was I was invited to go speak at UVU. And I have watched Sister Aberto, maybe along with everyone else, and her very eloquent speaking about mental health disease, suicide, and just the struggles we have in our lives. And when I went to testify at UVU, I saw her sneak in the back. And at first I thought, that can't be her. What is she doing here? I didn't realize that she taught there. But we didn't get a chance to speak. And I had uh actually saw her at Rootstech and again had not gone up to tell her thank you. So I believe that the spirit gently encouraged me to reach out and see if that she would be willing to come on and tackle some of these hard subjects and to testify how Templum Family History Work can help us in our in the healing process. So thank you. Thank you, my friend, for coming on and being willing.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Thank you, Tia. Thank you so much, my friend. It's a pleasure and an honor for me to be with you. Um, I'm glad that our our paths have crossed and that now we have the chance to have a conversation. So thank you for inviting me. And I look forward to to this, and I admire you so much because you know that you're trying to help so many people in their journey through life. And uh also helping us see that the the the veil is can be very thin sometimes, and that we can feel that influence from the people that are on the other side.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

I think that's one of the tender mercies that we can experience, especially in these very traumatic mortal experiences, that that is one of the gifts um and tender mercies that Heavenly Father has sent to us. But I wanted to introduce you really quickly. Um, she was born, Sister Reina Aberto was born in Nicaragua, Nicaragua, and is married to Carlos Aberto from Mexico. They currently live in Orim, Utah. They have three children and three grandchildren. Go, my friend, isn't that amazing?

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Yes, grandchildren are the best.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

Yes. She has served as the second counselor in the General Relief Society presidency and as a member of the primary general board. She currently serves on the Correlation Doctrinal Evaluation Committee in church headquarters. That sounds amazing. Um, and she's also the author of Reaching for the Savior and co-host on the Central de los Escritores podcast and on the Consecrating Your Life podcast. So clearly she's busy, and you also teach at UVU, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Yes, I teach at the Utah Valley Institute of Religion that is located at the UVU campus. Yes, I believe it's an institute here. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 3:51

Yeah, I I believe that one of my four for former students at Utah State University just signed up to take your class.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

Oh, great.

SPEAKER_02 4:00

Mariah Harrison. So you'll be maybe running into her a little bit. But what I wanted to kind of start with is in your talk, um, through Clouds of Sunshine, Lord Abide With Me, you talked very, very frankly about mental health and suicide. I don't believe that that was a coincidence because that was actually a few months before COVID started in full. And I believe, I mean, that perpetuated probably an extenuating circumstances that caused so much more mental health disease than we have ever comprehended before. So I don't think that that was a coincidence that you were prompted, because I know I've talked to many who have gone back to that talk and landed on uh really the comfort that you brought and the awareness that you brought, because it was not talked about that really, I would say that poignantly. So tell me a little bit about what you've why you felt prompted to speak about that in that particular general conference.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

I I honestly believe, Tia, that those words came from the Lord. I don't take any credit from them. I feel that He, like you said, he prompted me through several experiences that I had over my life. You know, I I had um I have had experiences with family members suffering from depression, anxiety, and other things. Um and uh and also my father who died by suicide. But that was a a journey for me in many ways. But the thing is that after I received that that privilege and that honor of being in the General Relief Society presidency, I will have conversations with people about this. Even um I went to Africa on a church assignment. It was one of my first international assignments that I had. And I remember being there with a group of young adults. We were having a devotional, and I asked them a question. You know, I asked them, What worries you about your friends? What things are happening in their lives and that you would like to help them with? And it was we had an amazing conversation, a very inspiring and uh spirit-filled conversation about different things. But one of the first things that they mentioned was depression. This was probably um in um sometime in 2017, and and for me that was kind of shocking hearing about depression in Africa. For some reason, I felt or I thought that it was a first world problem, but then I realized that it was something that it is happening everywhere. And then I will have, like I said, conversations. And when I received that assignment, the second assignment that I received to speak in general conference, the spirit kept telling me that I should consider probably talking about that. And as I was praying and trying to find what the Lord wanted me to talk about, um, I would run into people and they will bring up the subject. Uh, sisters will even ask questions when we had relief society trainings, they will ask, is it okay to talk about depression in relief society? And my heart will just soften so much towards that because I would think or I will tell them, you know, if it is a problem, if it is something that concerns you, sisters, uh it will be appropriate. We just need to feel follow the spirit and and have a conversation that is doctrinally based. And but the thing is that it just kept coming and coming up and in in different conversations, and and so I came to to Heavenly Father and I said, please um let me know that this is what I'm supposed to talk about. And and the and the the answer came and very clearly, and then I started preparing. And uh people think that I'm an expert in the subject, but I'm not. I think that what I did is that I followed that that uh inspiration. And I actually spent a lot of time reading and researching and and talking to people, and uh I even asked for help. You know, I sent my drafts to different people who were professionals in the field and they helped me. Um, so it was not me. I think it was the Lord. I think I was just a mean that he used for us to start talking about this subject because it is something that affects so many people.

SPEAKER_02 8:41

I think maybe the hesitancy because I we're probably around the same age, and I think the hesitancy is because it was never talked about mental health disease, suicide. It was always a taboo subject to kind of approach. And if someone was suffering from mental health um struggles and depression and anxiety, you just suffered in silence, really. There was no, there wasn't a whole lot of counseling available. And it his just literally, I believe it's one of the plagues that that is currently upon us because as you as you just mentioned, you would think that it's only a first world problem, but it's everywhere in all cultures. It doesn't matter the age, young, old, it's not discerning in in where it lands. And I everyone that I've talked to, and I just talked to Jen Davis, she was on the podcast before, you know, last week. She has um that very traumatic experience with her son. I personally have lost a dear loved one to suicide and am struggling with helping other members of my family trying to navigate those kinds of feelings and mental health disorders. You very gratefully testified of your own kind of experience with your father. But I think people wonder where does the church stand on suicide? What what what are the teachings, like you said, you went to study the doctrines? What did you find in studying for that talk that really helped you to understand our view of it through the lens of the gospel of Jesus Christ?

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Well, um, you know, as we read um the scriptures, we we realize that life is sacred, right? Life is something that we receive from God, and um and it's a sacred gift. Our body, it's uh we are made to the image of our heavenly parents, and because of that we have a divine nature and the potential to become like them. So life is precious and it's sacred. And at the same time, um, you know, mental mental issues, emotional issues are are are are like a sickness in our body, in our minds. Uh and we should look at them the same way, just like when someone has cancer, when someone has a problem with their with their livers or their their kidneys. Um when we when we have those kind of problems, the first thing that we think about is to to find uh help, right? To to go to a professional in that field and to receive treatment. So I think that the same thing um happens with when we have any kind of emotional or mental issue if we are not seeing clearly, if if we cannot feel the spirit, even though we are trying to have um holy habits in in our in our lives. We we we go to the scriptures and and we pray and we we go to church and we still don't feel anything. Um that means that probably we're having a problem with this. And I think that um that like you said, one of the the challenges is that people that have that go through those things sometimes they feel that they are the ones who are broken or uh that there is something wrong with them, but but there is nothing wrong with them. This is just like uh any other illness, it's not your fault. And and we need to have faith, we need to turn to God, to to to our savior. But sometimes we need more than that. And um and the reality is that if someone makes the you know the decision to take their lives because they cannot live through what they're living anymore, they they feel that they don't have the ability to do it. Their their mind is not in a in a normal state at that point. So we should not judge. We should not judge the person that that did that or judge their families, because I don't think it's anybody's fault. I think it's just that they were in a state of mind that didn't allow them to see them to see things clearly. And so I I think uh and and that is the position of the of the church, you know, to be compassionate towards people, to give help to people. Um if we realize that someone is going through that, we we need to provide help or or find someone that can help them, um, even um treatments, you know, medicine that could help with with those imbalances that people may have in their brain or or or different things that may be happening. Sometimes people suffer from trauma, from from um that pain that they have because of things that happened in the past and they have not been able to overcome them. But but um the position of the church is that life is sacred, but if something someone makes that decision, we should not judge. We need to follow the savior's example and be compassionate and um and extend mercy to everyone. Because we are all in a fallen world. In a way, we are all broken in some somehow, and we we just need to help each other in this journey.

SPEAKER_02 14:20

Well, I remember I think it was M. Russell Ballard that talked about we cannot know it's not our place to judge because we don't know what the traditions of their fathers that they were, you know, subjected to, or the traumas that they endured, or the different scenarios. And I believe, you know, as I've talked to more and more people about this, um unfortunately, I think it kind of helps you to understand in a broader sense because when we lost our particular loved one, we realized that there was extenuating circumstances surrounding that. And so each individual gets to that place for many different reasons. And thankfully, it's not our place or right to judge, but we know and understand that the plan of salvation um is in those very moments actually brings you much joy and comfort because you understand that there's a plan for everything. These things are not new to our Heavenly Father, he He is aware and He knows, and there's a plan in place through our Savior that He that things will be okay. What that looks like, you know, we don't know. We don't know the process on the other side of the Vell that it takes to walk through that. Um, but I I feel like there are processes in place that they also walk through just like we do on this side of the veil. And I am super, super grateful for that. Um, when you talk about, when we talk about suicide and you talked about your father, can you tell us a little bit more about your own personal experience with your father and how you found comfort um in the midst of it and then even later on when you were processing? Because, like you said, it takes a lot of time to process that. And was he a member of the church at the time? Or can you kind of walk us through that a little bit?

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Yes, well, it it has been a journey, and I think it continues to be a journey, right? Um, yeah, my father, you know, he came from a very, very um hard um background. His mother was a single mother. Um he was never recognized by his father. He his father never acknowledged that he was his father, and they lived in a very, very small town in Nicaragua. And my father knew who his father was, and he was kind of a wealthy man. But um sometimes when he would be walking on the street and he saw that his father was coming in the opposite direction, he would cross the street so he will not have to walk by him. So he grew up with this rejection from the beginning from his father. Um and um, but there were many other things that happened in his childhood. So he had a difficult um life when he was uh a young boy and a teenager. Later on, his mother and him and his and his sisters moved to the capital, you know, and uh and he went to school there. He he was an accountant. Then he met my mother, they got married, but he he he was he was an alcoholic from a young age. Um, and for a while that the marriage was okay, but then his his addiction to alcohol took a toll on their marriage, and so they had a lot of um of conflicts. I grew up you know in a very conflicting um environment. My my father would drink, especially on the weekends. He still had a job, he was very responsible in that sense. He had a job, um, he was functional, but then over the weekends he will try and drink, and that will create you know lots of tension in the home. And my mother and him will argue a lot. And so there was a point in which they separated. Um I moved to the United States in my early 20s, then my mother and my siblings came, and then a few years later, my father came also, but they were not really together, you know. Um so at some point I joined the church, my mother did too, and we moved to Utah, but my father stayed in California. My sister was also there, and apparently he was going through a very hard time, and we didn't really know the extent of his of his um struggle. Um, so he he didn't made that decision, he took his life. This was early 90s. Back then we didn't talk about those things, back then we didn't know how to deal with those things. So I believe that for many years, for decades, I was in denial. Um I didn't want to talk about it. I didn't tell anybody how my dad my father had died. I didn't even tell my children as they as they um came to this world and they they were growing up. I didn't tell them, I just told them that he died in an accident. That was all I would tell them. I would not give them any specifics. So um so he was not a member of the church. He never he never joined my my mother did. But what happened is that if I as I was preparing for that general conference talk and as I was reading about all these different um aspects of uh mental health, the topic of suicide will come with it, right? And then I started thinking um that I could not talk about that subject without saying that my father had died by suicide. I didn't want to be a hypocrite, and so in the middle of preparing for that talk, I had a conversation with my children because my husband knew I had told him, but my children didn't know so um we had a conversation and I told them what had happened, how my father died, and I was finally able to grieve with them. I remember that we cried together, they helped me, and and I felt I felt so much relief from that conversation. I think that in a way I was afraid to talk about that to my children because I was afraid that they would get ideas, you know, and uh but then I I learned about it, and and then I learned that there is uh there's a few um videos from Elder Renant where he explains that actually talking about it helps. Because then um if anybody is going through a hard time, you know, they they can realize that that there could be maybe other ways and and that they can always find hope and and and solace in in the savior. So the savior helped me with my healing process during that time. So for me giving that message in general conference was not only like you just said before, not for only for other people, but also for me. And I I still I think that I'm still in the process of healing. I don't think that you can actually heal totally. In this mortal body from something like that. But I have felt peace from my Savior. I know that he understands my pain. I know that he knows what is in my heart. And I also believe that my father now um is in a different place. And he has been taught to gospel. Um years after he, you know, after he died, um, we we went to the temple and did his his temple work. And a few years later, I I had a dream one day I I I saw my father uh in a pulpit in a meeting house, and he was giving a message. He was wearing a white shirt and a tie. And in the in the dream I sensed that he was a seasoned leader of the church. And I don't know exactly what that dream means, but I want to think that he has accepted the gospel, that he found has found solace in the knowledge of his savior, and that he he's helping now because we know that there is work on the other side, other side of the veil, that people are preaching the gospel there, people are learning the gospel there, people are accepting the gospel there. And I want to feel I want to believe that my father is helping with that, because I saw him in my dream as a leader, and so that's my hope.

SPEAKER_02 23:45

I think when we talk about um the plan of salvation and the healing that comes from it, I think we are grateful on this side of the veil, right, for the plan of salvation. What I have learned um over the past couple of years is that I am also grateful for the plan of salvation that it echoes on the other side of the veil. That those I've had similar, I've had a similar experience with my father, where um I have seen him, he's passed um in busy work of really teaching the gospel. He loved missionary work, and I was shown that he is busy doing that work on the other side of the veil. And I think for me, that has been part of the healing in my grief process is knowing that he is busy doing what he loves to do, and that um he is testifying of the savior, his voice has not been silenced, and that he is happily, busily engaged in the work of the Lord. And I believe engaged in my work with the Lord as well. He's helping me on this side of the veil. Um in your book, Reaching for the Savior, you you testify of angels on both sides of the veil that have guided you. Um, can you kind of relate some of those experiences and how that kind of ministering uh has helped you through all of these very difficult circumstances on this side of the veil?

SPEAKER_00 25:16

Yes, I don't know how how it works exactly, Tia, you know, that we we go by faith. But I when I look back at my life, you know, um from my early beginnings as a child and as a teenager, not knowing the the gospel, but still having faith in God and um and believing in Jesus, even though I didn't know him very well, I think back then. I think I know him better now, because I have made covenants with him and I have made an effort to keep those covenants and I have learned about him and I have tried to walk with him so he can walk with me. I do I don't know, but I feel that even the the fact that I accepted the gospel, uh I I I want to believe that there was some help from others, the other side of the veil there. Because for many years I had extended family members who were who were members of the church and they invited me many times, and and I didn't want to go. I had visited other churches and I honestly had not liked the feeling, but I I thought it was going to be the same. I I grew up as a Catholic, but not active. Just occasionally I would go to church and and and um I believed in God, like I said, but but then I I went through a hard time in my life. I I I you know it was my first marriage. I was married to a guy who had a very strong addiction to alcohol and drugs, and we had a three-year-old son at that time, and it got to the point in which I decided to separate from him. So I it was very dramatic, and it finally happened. He left. And uh during that turmoil, um, these family members extended the invitation again, and they told me, just go. Uh and you'll see, you like it, you you'll know, you'll you'll find God in there. And I accepted the invitation. I went for the first time to church, and that was all I needed. I just needed to step into that building and and and feel the spirit, and I knew that I was in the right place. I knew that I was in a place where I would be able to find help, spiritual help to raise my child with values, with with a strong foundation in God. And so I believe that during that process of softening my heart, I I want to think that someone on the other side of the veil had an influence on that. Also, now I just remembered another experience that um I had for many years, you know, after especially after joining the church, I I will feel like I will have this question in my heart. Sometimes I will ask, why do I receive so many blessings? I don't think I deserve them. You know how we are. We are sometimes very hard on ourselves, and I will think I don't understand why God is so merciful with me. And then when I read the the Book of Mormon for the first time from you know, from cover to cover, which didn't happen immediately. It took me a few years. I would just read passages here and there, but then one day I decided to read the whole thing, and um and I I started reading, and then I went to that part where the anti-anti-Nifalihites, you know, they make that covenant and they buried their their their swords and their weapons deep in the earth, and then when their enemies came, they just knelt down on the ground and they let them um kill them. And and at that moment, yeah. When I read that, I had the strong feeling that someone in that group was my ancestor. And uh that was one of the reasons why I have received so many blessings in my life. I remembered that I had that feeling I just started bowling, you know, I couldn't stop crying because I felt the spirit so strongly testifying to me that in that group was one of my ancestors. And I for me that is a very sacred experience. I I hope it is true that I hope that one day I can go when I go back when I go to you know to the to to the other side of the veil, I I can find out who that is, and I can give them a hug and thank thank them for their faith and for their example. And so I I want to think that those people who who came before us, who who have this connection with us, um that they they also help us here. And I also believe that those angels that the Savior sent us are not just the ones that are on the other side of the veil. Like I I have so many angels here, so many friends, so many people. They probably sometimes they don't even know the impact that they have had in my life. And that's why I think that we need to live life in a way that uh we are always looking for opportunities to help others. I believe that sometimes even a smile, just looking at people in the eye and a hug can make a big difference. And I think that we need to try to keep our eyes open. And and if we are going through a hard time, if we are even suffering from depression, anxiety, I think that the one of the best ways that we can fight that is by by looking around and instead of going inward, we go outward, just like the savior always did or does, and look for opportunities to help other people. And by doing that, we we we there's something happens inside us when we when we try to help others. When we pray to know how to help others, I believe that that's when revelation comes more clearly. And I believe um Elder Jose, I think, was the one who mentioned that in the last general conference, that revelation comes more clearly when we are trying to help other people. So I can tell you that every day I there are agents around me helping me on this side of the veil, I mean the other side of the veil. Um any anything can make a big difference, any small act of kindness can make a big difference in others, and I do believe in that.

SPEAKER_02 32:17

So I think um when we it's one of the the good, the awesome gifts that God has given us in these latter days is the ministering of angels. It's it's happened, no doubt, throughout history, but I think especially especially in these latter days where Satan is raging and we are feeling the effects of that, that this gift of ministering of angels, whether it's mortal or immortal, I I I know that I have felt very clearly my ancestors on the other side of the veil. Yeah. Helping me walk through um those the devastating things that you have to walk through on this side of the veil. Part of their role is they're not just busy teaching the gospel to others, but they are worried about their children on this side of the veil, their descendants, their posterity, their grandchildren, and and they have, and I'm not quite sure how it works, but they have the ability to at some extent to know when we need help, and they're allowed to come and uh through many different kinds of revelatory experiences come and bring comfort and joy. And I also love that we can be an angel, ministering angel for others. I am going to say that you have been one of mine. Oh, you don't you don't know that, but you have sorry, you have been a voice that stands out to me all the time, that kind of echoes in my mind when I'm walking through these very difficult things in my own family situation. And one of the things I will echo what you said, um, that when you're walking through a hard thing, and I tell this to my children all the time, look outward, see if there's someone you can help because it takes the focus off of you and puts it where it needs to be and allows you to feel the love of Christ for some reason more for yourself. You can feel that easier when you're serving others. And I believe also that when we're praying to know who needs help on either side of the veil, you can have those answers more readily available than if we're just praying for our own selves constantly. And so I echo and testify of that same pattern that you uh have alluded to. Um, in your next talk, you talked a little bit about your also, I mean, not only did you have an experience, this traumatic experience with your father, but then your your brother, your older brother, you also lost at a very young age. Can you kind of walk me through that and the healing process that you found? Because you mentioned a revelatory experience that you had with helping you to know because you hadn't accepted the gospel yet or known about the pun of salvation. What was that tender mercy that that the Lord gave you during that period of time?

SPEAKER_00 35:17

Yes, that's that was one I I guess I think the the the first really hard experience in my life when I was nine. You know how it is when you're a child, even if you go through hard things, like I was telling before, my my father will drink and there were situations at home. But I think that the the first big dramatic situation was uh when I was nine. It was just uh the night of the 22nd of December at at age nine, I I was really looking forward to Christmas. You know, my my parents will always make sure that we had a few gifts under the tree that that uh Christmas Eve, and and I was looking forward to that. And I remember going to bed on the 22nd of December, just looking forward to counting the hours basically for for Christmas to arrive. And and then I woke up and and uh I I actually thought that I was in a dream. It was a nightmare, and everything was dark, and I could I could smell you know like loose soil around me, and I I I just couldn't move because my my my my legs were trapped, but I had some space around me and I could touch something on top of me. So I thought it was a nightmare. Um it took a while for them to find me. I I started asking for help because I heard people heard people also doing the same thing. It was my mother who was asking for help. Um, and I heard the same and and I did it, and and um and they came and helped me. They took me out, and then not too long after that, they also took my my brother out, but he had already passed. He was 10 and a half years old. Uh, we were very close um during all those years growing together. And um, our house just collapsed, it was made out of out of adobe and just collapsed in a few seconds. And so, as you can imagine, it was in the middle of the night, it was dark, and I just couldn't grasp the fact that it was real. I thought it was a nightmare. Um, I think I was in shock for many days, and um even a few a couple of days after, you know, what they did is that my my cousins came to to our home. They lived a few blocks away and they took me there, and I just stayed there at my house at my aunt's neighborhood for days, and um so when Christmas Day came, she came to me with a present, with a gift, and I didn't know what what that meant. I said, Why are you giving me this? It's not my birthday, I think. And then she said, Today is Christmas. So I had forgotten Tia. I was in such a uh state of shock that I forgotten. And and you can imagine at age nine, I didn't know a lot of things about the gospel. I didn't know the gospel back then, and it was a very hard time for me trying to think and figure out where my brother was and or if I will see him again. So for months, you know, I had this pain inside me. Of course, um my parents didn't know, they were also in the same state of shock and and pain, and we didn't know how to help each other. We we didn't even talk about things back then. This was in in the early 70s, and and so after a few months, I started having this thought in my mind, and uh, I will imagine, and this was imagination. I I I I never saw I I never saw my brother, but I will imagine that he will knock on our door, and he will and then I will open the door and he will tell me guess what? Um, I was in a place where I was not allowed to come, but now I can be with you and I will never leave again. And that made me so happy just to have that thought and I will go back to that feeling and thought many times. There were times in which I even will sit at our living room hoping that he will come that that thought will become a reality and somehow that gave me comfort, but I didn't know what it meant, and I didn't tell anybody because I thought it was kind of a silly thing. It happened that about 40 years later, and I'm not exaggerating, it was exaggerating. I was it was about 40, 42 years later, during Easter time, as I was reflecting on the savior's resurrection. I remembered my brother, I started thinking about him, and I started thinking about that recurring thought that I would have in my mind, that image because it was an image that I would make in my mind that helped me so much, and then I realized that he had been a tender mercy of the Lord that somehow through the light of Christ, he let me know that my brother was in another place that I was not able to see him, but I would see him one day again, and that we will never be separated again, and so for me that was such a beautiful realization. I remember I was in the kitchen and I just started sobbing because I realized that the Lord had been merciful with me, with that little girl in Nicaragua who had that pure heart, and who was hurting because of the loss of her brother. And so I can testify to you that the savior always has a way to give us comfort, and he's aware of all of us, each of us, and I think that um we just need to have faith and and pure faith, you know, just like a child, and and turn to him and believe his word also, believe what he has told us, that he has overcome the world, and that we can find peace in him, not like the world gives gives it, but like only like in a way that he can give us. So that was an experience that I had that uh it took me all those years to understand. Um I'm I'm a slow learner, you can see, but uh, but it was beautiful. It is one of the the greatest things that has happened to me.

SPEAKER_02 42:21

Um, I so my stepmother, um she was actually in the Mexican earthquake and she lost her leg. She was in an elevator, and she describes the horror of that experience. Um, and then to add on to that for you, when you go through a traumatic childhood, and I, you know, our parents do the best that they can. My parents divorced when I was nine, you gravitate towards the one thing that's stable, and generally that's your brother and sister relationship. So when you lose that stable relationship amidst a bigger chaos, I can't imagine that the experiences and the feelings that you were having have got to have been overwhelming for sure. But I love that the Lord remembers his children, even if they're young, especially when they're young, I would say because their faith is sufficient. We don't, they don't have, they haven't lost faith yet. Um, as you grow up, sometimes I think your faith lessens. But you can always look for the Lord's tender mercies. And sometimes that relief it comes in many different ways. And sometimes it can come instantly, and sometimes it comes 40 years down the road, right? But he allows and gives us the ability to feel him at different times in different ways so that we can navigate these very, very difficult situations. Um, Elder Remland talked in uh a talk. A while ago, he talked about the healing that can come on both sides of the Vell as we engage in temple and family history work. Um, has that helped in your um navigating the complexities of relationships on this side of the valve, especially with mental health and with all of the traumas that you've experienced? How has that or or has that helped you in feeling the savior even more?

SPEAKER_00 44:29

Yes, uh, because I have had so many experiences, you know, when I'm in the house of the Lord, in which I have felt that closeness to the person that I'm doing the work for. And uh I I I like to imagine that they are a real person, you know. I love the fact that we pronounce their names. And who knows how many years have passed since their names were pronounced out loud. And that shows how important every person is that we do their work one by one, and we pronounce their names and and they have this opportunity to receive these ordinances and make these covenants. And we have the hope that they will use make use of their agency because they don't lose that to choose to follow the savior. So you just to tell you one experience, you know, like I mentioned before, uh, after uh my father died, we we did uh his work in the temple. However, um we did all the ordinances except for the ceiling to my mother, and uh I honestly, because their relationship was so bad at the end, I didn't dare to ask my mother. I I didn't want to ask her because I didn't want to hear her say, No, I don't want to be sealed to his father to your father. You know, I knew that she knew and I didn't want to push her. So several years passed, and then one day I received a phone call from my mother, and she said, Um, I just want to let you know that I'm I have decided that I'm going to be sealed to your father this Saturday. I just want to let you know just in case you want to be there. And I was like, Are you kidding me? Of course I want to be there, I'll be there. And then after we, you know, hung up, I hung up and I started thinking, Oh, wait a minute, I can also be sealed to them. So I did all the necessary paperwork. I can't remember what you need to do for that because it's a live life ordinance, you know, and it's special. So that Saturday we went to the temple. My my oldest son, my my husband, my mother, and me, and uh we knelt across that altar. You know, first my parents were sealed, but then I was also able to be sealed to them, and my brother was sealed to them too, that same morning. Um and then I realized, yeah, and I don't want to minimize the traumas and the hard situations that we have in life, but at that moment, when we were there, I realized that all of those conflicts and uh bad feelings and contention um didn't matter anymore. You know, um I I felt that there is a way to solve things and that once we we go to the other side of the veil, we look at things differently. And that the savior extends his mercy to all of us, no matter what happened in our lives, no matter what we have done. That there is there is there is a chance for everybody, there is an opportunity to repent and to become new creatures. And what happened to my mother during those days is that um when she made that decision, is that she had a dream. And she dreamed that she was in Manawa, you know, in her house, that house that collapsed during the earthquake. And she was inside the kitchen, and and my father was outside, you know, the she opened the door and he was standing outside. So there was light where he was, and she was kind of like in a dark room, and uh and then he extended his hand to towards her and she accepted his his hand and and he took her to the light. And she said that she woke up immediately, and she she woke up with the sweetest feeling in her heart. You know, because at some point they loved each other. I think in the in in the deeping heart inside they loved each other even towards the end of his life, but they just didn't know how to to deal with conflict and and lack of communication and and so many things that are so challenges for us in this life. And so that's when she decided to do it. And I think that uh that from that from that experience I learned so many things, and and I have told this story in in many settings, and I remember someone came to me um after a while and they said, you know what, we heard that story, and uh I heard that story, and I told my mother that she needed to go and got sealed with someone you know that she had had conflicts with, but she didn't receive that healing that you received, and I was like, uh you know what I think that we should not force things. Yeah, I think that we need to give time for healing to happen. I think that the fact that uh I didn't push my mother into do it that that that that covenant, you know, with my father to to have that ceiling to be sealed with him or to him. I uh I realized that uh that we should not force it. We should do those things when we are ready and and and wait. We can be patient, you know, and uh and so I think that that was uh an important aspect of this experience is that um my mother had to decide by herself. And somehow I guess he came in that dream and then he helped her come to that realization. And um and so I I think that we also need to be careful and not to force people. Yeah, we cannot force anybody to for to forgive us, to forgive someone. We can we can talk about the the doctrine of forgiveness and understand that uh the Lord wants us to forgive, but we cannot force it. Sometimes it has to, it takes time, it has to go through a process, and so um that was a beautiful experience that we had with my father. And uh, and I like I had, you know, like I saw him in that dream. I I had the hope that he's busy on the other side doing the work and helping us and being one of our angels on this side of the veil.

SPEAKER_02 51:01

Yeah, I think the important part when we're talking about complicated family relationships and trying to make those decisions of when and how the Lord is merciful in that He can let us know when the time is right. And sometimes it takes a while, sometimes they both have to be on the other side of the veil, and then it becomes right. You know, you you just but if you're close to the spirit and understand um that you will be led when it's time and be given those gifts of uh knowing when it's time that you will be able to do it in the right time because it like you said, relationships are so very complicated, and not every situation, even though it feels similar, is not the same thing. So I love that in the gospel of Jesus Christ, we we talk about forgiveness all the time, but that it's a process, it's not something, and some people have a gift for immediately forgiving others, it takes a while. We're given weaknesses and strengths, and we kind of walk through that um with the Lord. So can you give, I guess lastly, can you give any advice? What advice would you give for anyone that is struggling with mental health diseases and depression, anxiety, all of those things that seem so prevalent in our society today? Where I'm going to interview and we're going to hear from a woman who lost her son also to suicide tomorrow, uh, as we walk through these very, very traumatic and painful experiences. Is there some advice that you would want to give to anyone listening who may be struggling with that very same thing about how it can be navigated more easily and your feet can get put on the road to healing?

SPEAKER_00 52:56

Yes. I would like to start with that image that I gave in my when I gave that conference talk about uh in cloud and sunshine, Lord Abide with me. And this is something that was an experience that I had, Tia, that I just kept coming to my mind as I was preparing that talk. Because I think it's a it's an image that can help. Uh, you know, I was on a plane, it was kind of like almost the end of the day, and then the the pilot announced that in the city where we were going to land, um, there was a big storm. And it just caught my attention because I could see the sun coming through through the shades of the plane. So I opened the shade, and and the sun was coming down, so it was reflecting on top of those that thick blanket of clouds that we had underneath. So it was amazing because it was so clear out there, but I could see that thick blanket of clouds, and I could see the sun and it was so bright, but then all of a sudden we we started descending and we started going through that cloud, and it became so dark instantly. It was it was kind of like I've never seen that change of of light in you know, being outside so drastic. And then we went down and then there was a huge storm there. Um dark. And I I kept thinking, how could that happen? Up there, the sun is shining. I saw it just a few seconds ago, and here it's so dark. And then when I was preparing for that talk, that that that image came into my mind. It's the cloud. The cloud can block that that light that comes from the sun, from the sun and from the sun of God. And and then it can put us in a very dark place where we cannot even have we don't have any any idea what is happening up there, up there where the sun is shining. And so for me, that's that also talks about the stigma that the ones that are above that are looking at the sun, they cannot believe that it's so dark down there because they cannot see the darkness. And the ones that are in the darkness cannot see that light. So for me, the problem is the cloud. That's the problem. It's not you. You are not the problem. The problem is the cloud. And that cloud comes in many ways. Sometimes it's you know, it's depression that uh makes you feel like you are the worst person in this world, that you don't have hope, uh, and you don't want to tell anybody. And the isolation also, the cloud can be the isolation, the cloud can be those thoughts that tell you that you're not good enough. Um, that don't don't allow you to feel the spirit. So, my friends, we need to fight against the cloud. Let's try to dissipate that cloud. We can we can we can do things ourselves, we can turn to that light, and and sometimes you just need a little ray of light to dissipate the darkness. So turning to the savior, reading the scriptures, talking to other people, being vulnerable, uh, expressing what we are feeling to others, um, looking for professional help, anything, anything that can help us dissipate that cloud. Uh, that's my advice. Okay, let's try to dissipate the cloud. Let's also try not to be um um to have the prejudice against other people that they let's believe them when they tell us that they are in a darkness, even if no, we cannot see that darkness. Let's believe them and let's validate their their feelings and let's try to help them. I know that the savior um uses us as instruments in his hands and that he can use us to help other people, to to bring them to the light. And so um my my advice is to just keep being aware of that cloud because it can be very real, but also let's be aware of the fact that we we you know helping each other can help with with um dissipating it and um and bringing others to to that beautiful place where the savior is, where he is always waiting for you, um with his light, with his peace, with his love, with his mercy, trying to bring everybody to him so we can we can enjoy um his presence in our lives.

SPEAKER_02 57:42

I know personally I have experienced the the dichotomy of the light and the dark. Sometimes I am so close to the sun and the son of God, and then sometimes I feel like I am so far away. In fact, I I express it and it goes on for a while. It feels like you're drowning and you you're just trying to keep your head above water, and it is interesting to me how you can swing um between the two and not be able to stay, you know, in in that close to the sun place. But I have found that some of the tools, as you have mentioned, is reaching out to other people and being real and honest. I think sometimes we don't testify of the miracles that come from because we don't want to admit that we're struggling. Um, but some of the things that have brought me comfort are, like you said, reading scriptures, for sure for me going to the temple, for sure for me doing the work for my ancestors on the other side of the veil has brought me out of that very introspective place to an outward place of love. And then also witnessing to others, loving others. I think sometimes it, I'm not gonna call it a gift, but it's you gain empathy as you walk through these things yourself to look at others and say, I understand the darkness that you're in, and it will get light at some point. The light will come. Um, that song I used to play that over and over again that the light will come. Um, and I'm grateful for your willingness to come on and testify. You don't know this, but um, maybe the reasons why I love you so much is that we almost named our daughter Raina. It was one of the names, it was what we named her or Raina. And so I just have always been drawn to you and your testimony. You you are your testimony, it is so humble and a special witness of our Savior Jesus Christ. The fact that you would be so open to in general conference is millions and millions of people watching that you felt and had the courage to do that. I am sure I am not the only one that has been grateful for your testimony. And I'm grateful that you have come on today and testified of angelic ministrations and the reality that our savior is indeed aware of us in every single way and that those tender mercies are all around us. So um just thank you, my friend. I'm just so glad you joined me today. Uh, my friends, tomorrow we're going to hear from my friend Janet Hewlett, who is going to explain her experiences with uh losing a son to suicide and how she has gone through it. And I hope that you will look around you to those in your life who may be struggling with this. I would probably guess that most of us know someone who is struggling with these types of things, if not ourselves, and pray and seek for revelation on how to help others. I always I always tell my kids too, when we're walking through this, um, don't let Satan win. Don't let him win. Because what he wants is for us to give up and for and to not be instruments in uh our father's hand in for our father. So I hope that you will join me tomorrow. And Raina, Sister Aberto, sorry. No, you call me for the notes.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:26

And next time you see me, please comment and say hello to me. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:30

I will. I'm gonna come visit you. I'm gonna come sit in your class and learn from you.

unknown 1:01:35

Okay, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:36

I mean, I don't live that close, but I am totally going to come and reach out. And um, I just they're they are blessed to have you as a teacher. So thank you. Thank you, my friend, for joining me. And I hope that I wish you all the best. We'll see you soon. Bye.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:53

Yes, thank you. Bye bye.