MANIFESTATIONS OF A MAORI: Interview with Jon Smith

In the sacred hymn, "The Spirit of God", we are taught that the veil over the earth is beginning to burst. In all nations and cultures we are seeing God's hand moving upon the Earth, giving spiritual gifts and revelatory experiences to many. To the Maori people, the gifts of dreams and visions are the norm and not the exception. Jon Smith, a native of New Zealand, testifies that these gifts have been passed down through his ancestry and native culture. As he participates in the Gathering of Israel, especially Temple work, he regularly experiences sacred interactions with those who are on the other side of the veil. Also within his culture there are sacred teachings that echo our own temple worship. He shares a very small example of this as he relates a sacred chant, handed down through the generations, that points to Moses and Elijah. The Lord's Spirit is lighting upon all nations and we if have eyes to see, miracles and revelations, can and will be manifest to each child of God on both sides of the veil.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Hello, friends. Welcome to the Thinning of the Vill podcast. I'm your host, Tia Smith. Super excited today. I have a dear friend, if I if I may call you a friend now. We actually didn't know each other before, but we have been connected with uh through our, I guess our we both have the same friend, Helana Leith. She actually is used to live in New Zealand and currently moved to Utah. And she was one of the ones that reached out a little while ago on the podcast. And since then, we have become fast friends in all of the ways. We're texting almost daily because we feel an urge for Ephraim and Manasseh to be able to come together and testify of these things that the generations and especially the younger generation will understand who they are and where they've come from. So that is a huge introduction. But my friend John Smith, no, we are not related. At least I don't think so. I mean, I guess we are related if we go back far enough, but um, John Smith, and he's actually currently in New Zealand right now. John, why don't you tell us a little bit about who you are and your background so that our audience can get to know you a little bit better?

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Uh uh Mehiko Turakia kyakimayana, it in Fakapahinewa uh Kwayatene Meh Kariya Tine kyakwe tia uhtene uh uh kiafaiwa here to kitene ononga uh kefakapahunger or takitaki kinwia ta we tinewa no rekao tirakiakwe utirakia kwitekatoa in mata kitakima e tinewa um uheko uh smith tokiunga heuti tene uhemang nafaka hihia mumukai uhaipaka uh tehapu uhna tikahu minute iwi um kuta kite mudewaka uhta mateare kinui uhunakaihotu, na heuri aho no taku papara, hiba kure smith, uhmuye, ye medikitewit, uhpu de kiwa, kutawk papa, kojon smith uhmuye, ye parikurapiti uho uh noatu nekiakuitu tene one nota mi kotura, tenakutu, tenaku, whatira tenatata katoa. Um it's a privilege for me to be part of this uh podcast. Uh thank you tia. We we we are friends and um we're probably related.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

And so I'd like to think we have um uh uh a much wider connection, uh especially when we look at that through the lens of genealogy uh through the house of Israel. Um so I'm yeah, I'm I'm John Smith. Um it's a very English name for for a very brown-skinned man. Uh but I'm um I'm a descendant of um Parakai Paka, uh from the tribe of Nati Kohungu. I also have um genealogical links uh going back to uh Tufare Twa, uh Tu Natipu, uh tatuaka, uh, and also uh Kitfare Tapuangui uh Kingnatiwai. And so um yeah, I'm um I'm privileged to be a part um of this podcast with you. Um I I currently work for the church, uh for the organization. I work as a multi-language supervisor for the Pacific area. Uh so I supervise all the language teams throughout the Pacific, and um, it's a great work to be part of the translation and interpretation work uh for all the all the work that's um spreading forth throughout the world and particularly through the through the Pacific Islands. It's it's great for me to be a part of of the Mori translation team as well, um, having been uh a part of many projects in the past and and currently now as the as the supervisor for the Mori translation team, it's um it's it's a real privilege to be able to do this work as well as as a job. Um but uh but other than that, you know, um I'm a um eighth generation member of the church. Um and so uh we have a family legacy, the Smith family, um, hailing from Luhuka, Mahia area. Um and so it's it's important for me to keep that legacy alive, and it's um more so to do with my personal commitment um for the things that our our people have done, our ancestors have done in the past and paving the way, um, and for me to be able to live up to that legacy by continuing to to perpetuate, you know, the um the blessings that uh have been have been handed down and um along with that um all the all the gifts that are associated with that. And so yeah, um I'm very privileged and I'm blessed and uh once again I'm happy to be happy to be a part of this um program with you, Tia. Thank you for extending the invitation. It's very um it's it's it's really nervous for me to this is the first I'm not I'm not afraid of speaking, you know, it's but but to be able to talk about um such spiritual sacred things in this setting is is yeah, it's it's very new for me. And um it's I might be uncomfortable, but uh I I know it's an important thing. Uh I know that whatever experiences that I've had throughout my life and even now, um, that they're there for a purpose. And um I'm coming to realise that um for many years I I hid those things. I kept these things to myself and um uh hopefully a lot of oh well I mean, you know, I think close family and friends that know me um uh probably don't know certain aspects of of who I am as well. And um I I think that's kind of the the scary thing about it is you know um it's been able to sort of project myself in a way that um yeah a lot of people wouldn't um wouldn't actually see me in that light. And so um yeah, as we as we get more into this, I'll I'll definitely um try to be more spirit-led um in the things that I share with you. Hopefully that it uh achieves the outcomes that you want here in this podcast. So yeah, thank you, Tia, and and also me too, Helena and Ned as well for opening, you know, um the way as well and being part of it.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

Most entirely. Yeah. When we uh when we first met Halana and Tyler, um I started to kind of do a deep dive into the Maori, and I'm still trying to figure out how to say that Modi Maori. See, I'm still struggling with it. But I'm I'm I've been studying nonstop for the last three or four weeks. In fact, yesterday I just tried to listen to the alphabet and the vowels and how it works. In my studying, I have found something that has been truly remarkable, and that is the teachings of your people anciently uh closely resembles the temple, um the temple worship that we currently see now in our day. I've studied a lot of your is it the the matakite um or sears, all of their prophecies that they have been that were foretold that actually came to pass when the gospel was introduced into uh your nation and your and your people. Can you tell me from your own personal, because I've done a lot of studying, but most of the people listening probably have no idea about your culture and what in your culture um generally are the teachings um and the symbolisms that's helped you in your gospel living as you've been now an eighth generation member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

SPEAKER_02 8:50

Um Yeah, I think my upbringing, um, I I grew up in a small area um outside of Hastings. It's a small place, it's it's um it's probably maybe two to three hundred people. Um uh and there we have a um a chapel there, um, which serves as the stake center for the for the whole region. Um we also had uh prior to Church College of New Zealand, uh we had the first um church school established there in in my little village, uh Kurmotar, Bridgepa. Um and that was called the Māori Agricultural College. And uh for many generations um and even till now, um our area has been quite uh influential with the growth of the church. There's a lot of historical significance uh to that area, um especially at the turn of the um the 20th century, I think around 1884 or 1881 onwards, certain prophecies were being fulfilled um in terms of the gospel being taken to to Māori. Um now you could probably go back 30 years before that, um, maybe possibly around 1850s when the first LDS missionaries arrived on on New Zealand's soil. Um, but however, the mandate was to take the gospel uh to to the Bagao people, uh to the to the white people. And so Maori were were not really given that privilege of having um missionary work afforded to them. And and I think because over time um history shows that um the work was very slow. Um the missionaries established a few branches uh throughout the country, but um there weren't too many conversions. Um so there wasn't a lot going on. Um but uh when the mandate was given by the prophet at the time uh to take the gospel to the Maori, um that part was also in part uh fulfillment of prophecy prior to that uh to that call from the prophet and our Maori prophets, who we were there as prophets, um uh were also giving um receiving spiritual witnesses and revelations around the coming of the church. Um and you would have read quite a few of those prophecies already. Um and so from 1881 onwards, um 1884 was when I think the prophecy from Paul Tamura uh Paul Paul Tamurawa was fulfilled, that uh the missionaries were well on their way um to making their way up uh to certain areas and uh the gospel was was on fire. The people were readily accepting of the gospel uh being taught to them uh in their language. Um and so there was a a real boom at that time of um Maori joining the church. And um that also um played a part in in my family's role too with with joining the church. Um so my great-great-great-grandfather was Johan Hakenschmidt, he was a Prussian whaler, and uh he he arrived in Mahia and uh he married a Māori woman and um they had they had many children, and although um Johan his name was um evidently changed to John Smith, and so um through his children and his wife um they joined the church, and um that sort of begun our our family legacy from there. Um but uh going back to that as well, um one of Johan's daughters was um Mede. And Mere married uh a prominent chief named um Hidani Farmer. And so they were the first uh Maori um family to migrate from New Zealand to to Zion to Utah, as you know, and um so uh that that's an interesting story about that. Um her her diaries uh are still in possession by family members, and um we really love that that history, um, the commitment of of Medi and her husband. Um and at the time Hidden was a very renowned Tupuna, a very renowned ancestor. Um he was he was from a chiefly line. He was his father was a high-ranking, a high-ranking uh person. And um I think when the gospel came amongst the people to them at that time, they they readily knew that uh, you know, this was the right path for them to take. And so um when they joined the church, um, that also committed a lot of other Maori families to join the church as well. Um, and as you can imagine, when missionaries are uh coming into a village and they live amongst the people and they teach amongst the people, um you convert the chief, you convert the village, you know, and and that was the case in a lot of areas too. Um so one one through one person, you know, um uh history sort of tells us that, you know, hundreds, you know, in the same day would would enter the waters of baptism. And those things, you know, those days were really, really special, really, really powerful. And it was a real must have been a real lively time for the gospel to be preached and also for the people to recognize um their identity as well through the Book of Mormon, and being able to correlate their history with the movements of of their ancestors throughout the Pacific, uh going back to the original homeland. Um, and no doubt we identify that uh through the Americas, through the American continent and and connecting back to Lehoy as well. And so um over the years we've been able to sort of retrace as best as we can, you know, a lot of the genealogical links and and all the things that come with that as well. So the beautiful thing about our culture is I think thanks to social media and TikTok and everything like that, I think a lot of people know a little bit about New Zealand, uh, probably through the haka, you know, and um uh that's a worldwide sort of um venom at the moment, you know, and um it's great to see our culture uh portrayed that way. But um, you know, that our culture is a very well it's it's a beautiful culture. We have a very beautiful poetic classical style language, you know, and um it comes with a lot of um feeling, it comes with a lot of power, and um when it's used the right way, it comes with a spiritual power that um you know only a house of Israel people can carry and convey. And so I think that um you know my experience with with you know being Maori uh and being a member of the church, I've I've never struggled with that. Um a lot of times our people find it hard to balance between um living in the Maori world and also living the gospel. And to me, I've been able to find balance with that. And like you said, the temple is really the um the pinnacle of that. And and as you mentioned before, you know, um, and then the things that you've read up and studied as well, um, that that's certainly true. In a church setting, you can find a lot of those close parallels um with aspects of our culture um being tied into, you know, um the things that our ancestors brought that only a house house of Israel people can bring. And so yeah, I think uh while while some find it hard to to have that balance in both worlds, um for me it's never been an issue. Um and I think partly because, well, first of all, you know, I I love Heavenly Father and and I'm grateful for for the atonement of Jesus Christ. I'm grateful to know him. And I'm thankful that you know, with the knowledge that I have that he knows me. And first and foremost, I'm a child of God. And n no no culture, no language, um, no perspective can can change my mind otherwise. Um and then I'm a Maori. You know, and so um that's the order I put that. You know, and so with that then, um the gospel shines on its own light, and I think that um what I learn through my culture and what I learn through my language and and the things that I've been brought up with and the things that I know to be true, um I can easily find the connections and tie that in. And um for me the task is how do I teach that to my children? You know, how do I teach my children about who they are? And so, you know, I'm I'm I'm grateful that um my culture has has given me, you know, my identity. Um but really I I look to the pop a ponem or to the foundation stone of where all that comes from, and it's really through the lens of the gospel of Jesus Christ, really. Um yeah. I mean I can dabble in both worlds, um but I keep a balance on that. Um because as you know, there there are things to be cautious of in that as behind. So, you know, um I try try not to be um too uh I I won't say ignorant on on both sides, but I I'm I'm always open to learning. Um but the most important thing is how does that correlate to my testimony and how do I fit that uh into my way of thinking into my way of seeing the world as a Maori, um that I can embrace both at the same time. Um because if it's true, you can do that. If it's not, then it just it just gets put to the side, you know. And so that's how I basically look at things.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

I think it's so beautiful, first of all, that you're reminding all of us that when the focus is always on Jesus Christ, then the peripheral stuff will always um you can get the right lens on it, right? Because I think a lot of us come from a lot of different cultures. We say words differently, we eat different foods, there's different um, there's different things that you could look at and say, well, we're different, so therefore, you know, we can't be friends or we can't be a part of the gospel in the same way. But when it all goes back to Christ, it's this beautiful tapestry. And I'm and I'm I'm kind of reminded of the the clothing that you guys weave together. It's almost a weaving together of your culture, but of your identity in Christ. And it's been so cool for me to, I didn't know that um, and I'm gonna try to say this right, Hidewini and Mede were your ancestors. One of the reasons why so many people came into uh some of your tribe members came into the gospel was because of his prophetic abilities and his willingness to preach and testify in power of, you know, even the directions that the missionaries would come in, that they would live among them, that they would eat, they would speak the same language. And so when the missionaries came, it was more readily recognizable because of the prophetic abilities of your ancestor. And I the more That I study your culture and all really Polynesian cultures. And even further than that, Manasseh seems to have an ability to receive revelation through dreams, through visions, through prophetic pronouncements more readily available than maybe some of us who are of the tribe of Ephraim. So tell me a little bit then about your ancestral and maybe your personal spiritual gifts that has impacted you growing up because it seems like in this culture it is a norm and not an something that we all you only talk about once in a while, but it just seems like within your your culture there are certain spiritual gifts that are more evident.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

Yeah, it's it's quite normal. It's quite the norm for us as Maori. Um we're very we're a very receptive people to spiritual things. Um I've only ever known that about our people. Um I I'm from the tribe of Manasseh and I and um uh I've been riddled with some of these gifts throughout my life, you know, spiritual gifts that um I often don't speak about. But um I I I think back to um my my grandfather. He's n he wasn't a member of the church. But my grandfather, um, on my mother's side, my mother's father, um was a very he was a very hard man. Um his father fought in w in the war and um you know that came with a lot of trauma in their family and so uh their their their upbringing was really rough. Um I remember the home that my mother um and my grandparents grew um lived in. Um it was in a it was a very old house. Um it um and it was the only house on the hill right next to it was uh was a cemetery and uh we also had the Murai there. And so my grandmother, her her religion um is Ratana, it's a Maori religion. Um and so most most of my family on my mother's side are are all Ratana. My mother was was raised Ratana. And I remember when I was a young kid um um being at my grandparents' house all the time. Um we would we would grow up on the Murai there, and uh my mother was and my my grand my grandfather was the custodian of the Murai. But it was always said that when someone passed away, when so before someone would pass away in the village, um they would come and visit my grandfather. And the way that you could could recognize that is in the house, because it's such an old house. Um you could see the holes in the walls to look outside. You know, the house you could just blow it and it would fall over. Um, but yeah, it was a very cold house, it was very creaky, it was very noisy. Um you could hear the wind, the rain, and everything with it. But in every room in the house, you had those lights that you know, you had the cord hanging from the ceiling, and then you had the light bulb, and you know, it's it's quite scary when you're a young kid because the whole house is illuminated in darkness, and then you see light emanating from this little light bulb that just swings to and fro. And so at night times, um, and I witnessed this once. I was uh I was in the in the bedroom and the door was open, and it was it was late, and everybody was asleep, and I couldn't sleep because there was too much noise going on outside. I could hear the wind howling, you know, I could hear things banging outside, and um for a little boy that was quite scary because you're sitting in the dark. You're with all your cousins lying in the mattress and and sleeping together, but I just couldn't sleep because I could see all the shadows, you know, and um my grandfather would um leave the lights, leave the lights on in the hallway. And um while I was sitting there one night, uh the lights in the hallway started to sway together. And as I sat there, I thought, what's what's blowing those lights? They don't just move on their own. And then I saw somebody walk past my door, the bedroom door, down to the hallway to go to the end bedroom where my grandfather slept. And I heard I the person that I saw was dressed in white, and um they walked past the door and then um went into the room and then the lights went out. And and I got scared, and I was just like, oh, oh, I was trying to wake my sisters up and you know, you know, I was sort of scared and almost crying, I was shivering. Um I had found out later on that um my grandfather would receive visitations from people, um, spiritual visits. Um prior to someone passing away, they would they would visit him. Um and back then they didn't have cell phones, we didn't have social media, we didn't have emails, you know. But my grandfather knew before the whole village knew, before anybody knew that this person was going to pass through the veil. He was the first to know, and that happened all the time. And so when I heard that, when I heard that, my jaw dropped because I was just like, oh man, I I actually saw, I actually saw it, you know, and um my eyes kind of opened after that. I s I was really um I became a lot more spiritually intuitive, um without really knowing what that was. But I often pondered about life after death. I I pondered about spiritual things that way. And um th throughout even my young youth when I was young, um I would often find myself going to our family cemetery quite often. And I would just lay down on on my grand on top of my grandfather's grave where he's buried, and I'd sleep there. I would sleep there. And I would just be thinking about you know, my my grandparents, my great-grandparents, you know, all my cousins that had passed away, that I'm that are buried right here. I used to think and wonder about them a lot. Um and it got me thinking, while I'm lying there looking up at the sky, I'm thinking about me, and I'm thinking about, you know, a lot of the things that I uh um had experienced as a kid that didn't make sense to me. Um and then as I kind of got got a bit older, um I think a lot of those imaginations then started becoming reality um for me and and quite frequently. And um it was like, you know, the more I thought and pondered, and and I'm sure I often prayed and dreamed about, you know, um spiritual things like this, that they started manifesting and um it it probably really opened my eyes even more uh prior to my mission and going on my mission. And then that's when it really intensified. Um and and it was crazy. And never since then I've had those certain intensities, you know, of of having spiritual experiences, particularly now as an adult. Um I wonder if someone's picking and choosing for me or or or whatnot. I mean, I don't seem to have control over that, but I've had many wonderful experiences throughout my life that I just know now. There's there's there's just no shadow of a doubt. There there's absolutely no shadow of a doubt cast on my testimony about where our people are when they move through this world. Um and it's given me such a depth of testimony to know that, yeah, man, God's got a plan for us, you know, and we are here for a purpose, and we have a we do have a purpose um of um making it back to his presence. And so as I've grown into adulthood and matured more and have been able to settle with a lot of things um within myself about it, um, I'm finding it more easier now to be able to share with people. Um because for a long time I didn't understand why I was seeing things, why I was seeing people and what did that have to do with me, you know. Um sometimes I didn't even know the person, but you know, nevertheless that I there's a message, there's a message, and it's taken me years to figure that out. And um yeah, so yeah, I think it was really the first experience I draw on was the one with my grandfather, and then from there it was, but yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

When we um when you start having experiences, at first you don't know where to place it, especially as a child. And by the way, we are friends because on vacation I go to cemeteries, so you and I can hang out together because it seems like cemeteries for you are also like a home away from home, which sounds a little bit weird, but you start to realize that the spirit world, first of all, is real, and second of all, that the gift that you've been given is for a purpose and for a reason, and it's within the context of God's wanting all of his sons and daughters to come home. That is going to require uh many different spiritual gifts, but especially, I believe, in relation to our ancestors, we have to have that gift, especially in your uh culture and tradition where a lot of it was oral, a lot a lot of oral family histories. What I love though is that as I've studied your your culture, is that it was important for everyone to know their genealogy, regardless of what religion they belong to, that your ancestors were always important. And I believe, and I've said this before on a different podcast, in a different episode on my podcast, is that I believe within the Polynesian people and the native people that because your ancestors are always in front of you, you're always remembering them in different ways through your carvings, through art, your oral histories, that then you receive those spiritual gifts because you are they're always present, wherein maybe some other cultures you just want to forget about who your grandparents are. You're too busy, you can't be bothered. Because I believe it's in the remembering that spiritual gifts are given. Um, when we talk about your development of your spiritual gifts and understanding before when we talked previously, you um talk to me a little bit about your uncle. Tell me a little bit about his influence, what he did, and how that impacted your now kind of growing into these spiritual gifts and understanding.

SPEAKER_02 34:39

Um, so when I moved to Hawaii, uh uh well, I think I would have been 16 at the time. I remember having conversations with my uncle. And um I I told him about things that I had experienced throughout my life, and I'd never told anybody, not even my mum, you know, or anybody else. And my uncle pulled me aside and he says, you know what, son, he goes, I've I know exactly what you're talking about. He said, When I was a child, I had these same gifts, and um he got scared of them. He got scared of them, and he said by the age of 12 years old, he he couldn't really handle it, the intensity of the of the things that he was saying. Um some were good, but some weren't. Yeah, um, he had some really dark experiences too, and as he shared those with me, he he shared me an experience about about that, and he said to me, it got so full on that he ended up praying. He prayed it away that he wouldn't have the ability to see these things anymore. And he said, you know what? He said, My my prayer was answered, and he said, and and since then I've not been able to have those kind of experiences that I used to have. He spoke with a bit of regret too. And you know, as a 16-year-old, I really took that in and I remembered how he felt when he's how I felt too when he said that, that he it came with a bit of regret, and um that made me ponder about first of all, should I do the same thing? Because I'm not too sure if I if I can handle this or or should I just bear it, you know, and should I carry on with that? And I have. Um, there've been some times where I've wanted to say, stop, that's enough, you know, that's enough. But I know as I've sort of pushed through even through some darker experiences, that it's brought me to the light even more. And the more you want the light, the the more light you receive. And so I've been able to have, you know, way more um spiritually enlightening experiences than I have, you know, with the darker ones, so to speak. But my uncle was very influential in my life. Um he's probably the per he's probably the reason why I am and where I am, and you know, in this position today. Um he taught me a lot. Um in the in our previous discussion, I spoke of an uncle that I used to go with into the prisons. Um he was the he was a chaplain in in one of the prisons. And um I would have been around 18 years old at the time, and he had um invited me to come along to the prisons with him. And um, I actually had a few friends, I actually had a few friends locked up in prison at the time. So I thought, oh, let's go see them. And so um we went there and um my uncle uh I just didn't know he was this kind of a person, but um my uncle sat down with a with a group of gang members. I mean, they've got gang tattoos all over their faces, you know, and things like this, you know, and you you could tell there these were these were real gangsters, you know. They were they were they were leaders, they were powerful people, um, you know, and incarcerated for whatever reasons. I just looked at them and thought, well, this is a waste of time. What are we doing here, you know? My uncle just has a Book of Mormon, and I'm just like, what's that gonna do, you know? And here I am as an 18-year-old, because that's the world I saw at the time. It was just like my friends here that are locked up, like that they're not good dudes, man, you know. And anyway, I I sat in on on the first session with them, and my uncle talked about the Book of Mormon, but he talked about it that in a in a mighty way, and he talked about it as if it was our book, this was our history, these were our people, and he drew a lot of things out of the Book of Mormon, the things that I had never ever heard of in my life, you know. And I although I say I'm an eighth-generation member of the church, I didn't actually grow up in the church that well. Um, I come from a broken home. My my mother and father separated when I was five years old. My mother was a convert to the church, she was of the Ratana faith. When she joined the church, um, I actually never knew that my mother was a member of the church until I was 19, until I went to the um to the mission. And she had told me when she dropped me off at the mission training center, I had asked her, I said, Mum, why why did you not ever raise me up at the church? You know, and she's just you know, um she goes, Oh, well son, I got I got baptized, you know, not long before. And I was just like, Are you a member? And she goes, Yes, I am. I was just like, Oh, I didn't even know. Wow, you know, and so um, yeah, so that I although I never really grew up strongly in the church, um, came from a broken home, and um I was really on my own one, you know. But um as I turned as when I came back from Hawaii um and living with my uncle and and family there, that that that changed my life. And um, I came back to New Zealand um at 18 years old with a desire to serve a mission. And so I think my uncles back home were looking out for me because they knew the kind of life that I had. Um, they could they knew the kind of cat I was, and yet here I am coming back saying I want to serve a mission, you know. And um that probably exceeded a lot of people's expectations at the time, even my own. But um my uncle took me aside and said, I'm gonna take you to the prisons with me every week. I sat down there with these with these men, and to see the way that these men were being humbled through the spirit of what they were being taught by my uncle changed my whole, you know, my whole outlook. I was just like, wow, wow. And so um that's where my love for the culture really fostered, um, from from having that experience of being able to see it relatable to the gospel and the gospel vice versa, you know, with my culture. From then it's just been a never-ending ride for me, you know. And so my uncle was very influential. Um, although I never had a a solid father in the home, um, my uncle became my father, you know, and I call him dad, he calls me son, you know, and so um oh I'm grateful that I had a righteous man in my in my life that uh directed me and taught me that understood me because of who I was and um has experience as well. And um, yeah, that's it's um brought me here today, you know.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

So I find it extraordinary when we talked about your father, or I mean your uncle, sorry, previously, and his teaching in the prisons, that what what drew these quote prisoners to change was this was the fact that your uncle spoke about the prophets and apostles in the Book of Mormon as forefathers. And if you really think about that in relation to prison on the other side of the veil, it is the talk and speak about forefathers and how we're all connected that also changes hearts on that side of the veil as well. It's extraordinary when the spirit of Elijah starts to light upon people in no matter what kind of prison they're in, the power that's speaking about our forefathers and our connection to them really can emit this kind of change within them and within ourselves. Um can you tell me a little bit now about your own thinning of the Vell experiences, some of them, as it relates um especially to your work in the gathering of Israel?

SPEAKER_01 43:17

Um Yeah, I'll I'll share with you a few different scenarios.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

Um the the mission we want the good ones, right?

SPEAKER_00 43:36

Absolutely If we had time I'd say all of them, but we don't have time for that, so uh So in the temple um I'll I've had countless I can't even count how many

SPEAKER_02 44:00

Times I felt that there was no veil at all. There was no veil. There is no vowel in the temple. And that took me quite a few years to get used to. I remember the first time my wife recognized that I was, you know, having an experience. And she's become quite receptive with me. I guess she can tell by my body language or whatever it is, I have no idea. When you're in the zone, you're in the zone, right? And I I think being able to open up to my wife over the years and share things with her, it's really helped me. She's given me the confidence, you know. So um let me share with you the most recent one, which wasn't too long ago. Um we were doing a ceiling. My wife and I were in the ceiling room, and um there were two other couples in there, and we each had our names to do. And um as my wife and I were sitting there um while the ordinance work was happening, um I closed my eyes. And um the reason why I closed my eyes at the time that the work was happening was because I I the room was full of people. And um I I just didn't want that to be noticeable. And so I I ended up closing my eyes, and two things happened when I did that. When I closed my eyes, I may as well have just kept them open because as I closed my eyes, there were more people. And I remember when I was seeing that, I saw this family, and it was a number of people, and they were standing there together, and they weren't even of the same nationality, uh, they were different sizes, shapes, ages, colors, but they were all standing together as a family, and they had their arms wrapped around each other. And I remember they were so excited, they were just really, really happy, and they were standing there as if there was a curtain in front of them, and I could hear them talking, and they were saying, Oh, we're getting ready, we're getting ready, it's about time, and then the curtain opened and the light shone on them, and it was almost as if the work had been done for them, and they were now connected, and they came forward together, and I'd never seen that before. And um, I just looked at my wife and I was just like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, and so um the other thing I was just like, oh man, this is a bit too much. So I I I as I as I had my eyes closed, I just I opened them, but I just kept my eyes down, um, because I was trying to internalize it all, and as I had my eyes, I I could just see their feet, you know, walking past, and I was like, it it no matter what, no matter what I I was trying to do to avoid or just try to keep it cool. That that that day in that ceiling room was a was a big reunion of families being joined together. I was in the temple with my with my son as well. It was his first time going through the temple. Uh actually it was a second time doing uh second time in the temple, first time doing ceilings prior to him leaving for his mission. And so his mum wanted to have that experience of doing some ceilings with him, and so um that just having us three in there with my older son was was great, but that experience on the whole of seeing the ceiling work being performed, but there were others there that were connected to that ceiling was just mind-blowing to me. And um, you know, I can still see the faces. I can still see the faces, you know. So that wasn't too long ago, that experience. Um, the many temple experiences I've had. I remember we had um uh family baptisms. My wife and I try and go to the temple every month, once a month, and we take all of our children. Um, well, we have five children, but um, our youngest is eight. We have a 15-year-old, a 17-year-old, an 18-year-old, and one who just turned 20. But at the time before their missions, I have two that are serving missions right now. Uh, we would take our children to the temple um once at least once a month. We would book them in for temple baptisms and stuff like that. And I remember um one of the sisters in our ward, she she loves family genealogy. She is so connected to spiritual things, it's not funny. But um, my wife asked her, Do you have any temple names to take? And she says, Yes. She gave us this big stack. It was a big stack, and you know, you're only allowed to take five names each, but uh she gave this big stack of names. She said, Oh here, take these, get these done. So my wife said, We'll get all these done. We won't go until they're all done. So we get to the temple. Um, we take a few nieces and nephews with us, just so we have numbers. But we booked that session out just for our family, and we're in there, and I remember I was um standing in the water, I was I was um doing baptisms for um you know for my for my kids, and I remember um I was standing in the font and I had my son, and just as I was about to perform um the proxy baptism, the name came up on the screen, and I as I I saw the name, and then I stopped. And so my wife and my niece are sitting up doing uh the witnessing, and then I think I have someone else doing the recording, and there's only a very few of us, but I stopped because I had to look up on the steps of the font, and there was one person who was just standing there, and he was just staring at me, and I just looked at him, and I couldn't take my eyes off him, and I was just like, in my head, I was like, Who are you? Because this man looked like an old man, he didn't look like an old man, but he was a scruffy, scruffy-looking man. Um he had blue eyes, he had blonde hair, he kind of had a beard, but he was rough looking, and I was just standing there looking at him like, Where did you just come from? And so he was standing on the on the steps, but his feet were in the water, and so I looked at him, and then I looked at the name, and then I looked back at him, and I knew straight away this is you, and so anyway, I went to perform the baptism. And as I came up out of the water, I looked and he just turned around and he went back, and then another person came, and then I was just like, What? And then I looked at that person, and then another name came up, and it was the same last name, and then he stood there with his feet in the water, standing there, looking at me, and so I baptized him, you know, and then he turned around and walked back, and then another one came out, four of them came out one by one, and they were all siblings, and they all stood on the steps of the front, and uh you think that was powerful, man. We went to do the confirmations, and I could barely get a word off because I was going through all these names, there must have been about a hundred names, well it was a lot, but as I was going through the names, those four names came and I I just I couldn't handle it, you know, because I was actually out of that whole list of names, you know. I definitely knew those four had accepted the gospel and had accepted their baptism, and in a way for me it was so reassuring, you know, this work isn't in vain. You know, we have to do more than pay lip service to our testimonies, you know. And so as part of that gathering of Israel, what we're doing on this side, it does matter. And you might do a thousand names, you know, may not everyone may not accept the gospel, but I tell you what, there are those that are waiting on the other side that are that will come that want to be there, that want to see it, you know. And uh when I did the confirmations, I could hear each one of those four say to me, Thank you. You know what? The thing is, we did the baptisms and we did the confirmation in Maori. We didn't even do it in English, because every time I take my kids through the temple, or every time I go through, I don't go through in English. We go through the whole thing in Maori in our language, and so we were doing it all in Maori, regardless of what the names were. Uh, but they they each whispered to me and said, Thank you, you know, and um that was really, really cool. Um, you know, and it's it's been funerals, funerals are a really um tough thing to or not tough, but you know, they um seem to be like um at that funeral service, you know. That seems to be a thinning of the veil experience for me as well. And I've had you know countless times where um before the body would come in to the chapel, I I see the person walking in front of her, uh in front of herself, and that is such a beautiful thing to see. That is such a beautiful thing to see. Um last year uh we were at a funeral um of a of a he's a phenoma, he's a he's a family relation of mine. But um my brother-in-law, that there was his nephew, so we all went down to to support him. And and I remember when they carried the body out of the chapel and took him to the cemetery. There was so much people there, huckers were going off, and you know, everyone was was doing their thing up at the gravesite. And uh you couldn't even see, you couldn't even see, you know, the immediate family there. They were just all surrounded, you know, by the by the plot there where he was being laid. And as clear as day, I saw that person standing above his own where he was being laid, dedicating his own plot. Yeah. He was saying he was saying the break. And I was just like, man, wow. They were such I've never seen that before, you know. Um my my sister-in-law just had a baby, her first baby. And prior to her giving birth, this person kept kept coming to me, and I could see her face, you know. I could describe her from head to toe. And it wasn't until uh when she gave birth, they were in the maternity unit, and we went to visit the next day. And then uh as I sat in the room, because I it made me think like, why does this person keep coming to me? Like, who is she? And so I'm keeping this mental picture of her in my mind. And then I get to the room, I open the door, and there she is, and she's standing there over the baby, looking after him, and I and I knew I knew straight away she's a relation, she's she's someone. And so I looked at my brother-in-law, and I says, Hey, tell me about your grandmother or great-grandmother. Like, do you have photos of them? You know, and he says, Oh yeah, and I says, Do you have a grandmother that looked like this? You know, that described her. And he goes, Yeah, yeah, that's my uh thing he was saying, that's my mother's grandmother or something like that. He says, I don't know who you're talking about. I said, show me a photo. And then he showed me a photo of Hannah and I was like, That's her. I said, That's her. And he was just like, What are you talking about? I said, She was in the room. She's in the room with you. She's been here the whole time, you know, with with baby. You know, I said, you gotta know that that your that your grandparents and your great grandparents they really love you, and they love this baby. And so I said, you know, they she was here, she's been here the whole time looking after, looking after you guys. And so um, you know, when I have these kind of experiences, I don't share them with the people involved. I always sort of kept that to myself because I was just like, why me? Like, why am I sitting there? Why not them? You know, why aren't they having that experience? Because that's that's them, you know. And so I would just keep it, keep it shut the whole time, you know. As I started sort of opening up to my wife over the years, she was just like, you can't do that.

SPEAKER_04 58:29

You can't do that.

SPEAKER_02 58:30

You got you gotta you gotta share that experience with them. You never know where they are at in their life, and they may need something like that to pull them out of the darkness. And so I took that advice, and I remember I started sharing some of that with with a few people that I had experiences, you know, with um those of their loved ones beyond. And as I did that, I was really uncomfortable with that, you know, to be honest. Um, but I just hope that it did help them. You know, I'm not much of a dreamer. I don't have a lot of dreams, but when I do have dreams, they're they're pretty powerful. Um sorry if I'm going way over.

SPEAKER_00 59:19

No, you're good. I think this is a this is an awesome conversation to have because people experience the thinning of the villain many different ways, it whether it's visionary or whether it's dreams. I I can remember some of my first experiences, like you had in the temple, where you can actually start deciphering faces, clothing, um, words coming at the same time. And in the beginning, you're not quite sure. You're like, am I making this up? I don't, you know, you you try to put it into a space and place that's understandable. But when you think about it, it really is understandable because uh we we are meant to help others through these gifts. And yes, people have all different kinds of gifts for sure, but for some reason when we're thinking about these kinds of gifts, we get a little maybe we shouldn't share them, or maybe it won't help someone else, or we get all of these weird thoughts in our head. But as you're explaining all of these things, I feel the spirit when you're testifying of these things because um it kind of validates my own experiences. And I think the more people that talk about these things and testify of these things makes it easier for other people. Um tell me a little bit about your dream, and then maybe um what have you learned from these spiritual gifts? Because we're not just given them right to say, oh, we're cool because we have these certain types of spiritual gifts.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:58

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think that's part of it, you know, with me, and I think that's a cultural thing too, is uh to our people it's it's quite normal. Yeah, I'm not saying, you know, I'm generally speaking, um, not everybody has that ability. But I was talking, I was interviewing quickly with an elder uh last week. I was I was I was having an interview with him, and I recorded the interview, and um, you know, he's he's a very gifted man as well. And he was saying, he said something to me interesting. He's not a member of the church, but he said, you know, and with his role and responsibility as an elder amongst his people, um, he carries a lot of weight, he carries a lot of responsibility, and so he was saying that, you know, he feels a lot of times when he's in the zone, um, in the zone, that um it everything else is blocked out around him. He he doesn't even know there's people standing next to him, he's just so in tune with the spirit world that whatever is coming to him, that's all he sees, you know. And and so he said it's quite scary when he has to jump back, when he has to jump out of that. And then he says every single time it kind of shocks him because he doesn't realize that you know there there were so many people surrounding him at the time or whatever, you know. And I and he said, you know what though, John, he says, all our people have that gift. He goes, they just know have to know how to get in the zone. And I said, Well, how do you get in the zone? And to me, I feel like I think I know the answer here. But I said, How do how do you get in the zone? And he said, you have to be continually in prayer, and your prayers have to be so focused. Yeah, it has to require your whole heart, might, mind, and strength to what you're saying. And he said, and when you're in that, you're in the zone. That's you know, that's his words. And I was just like, You're so right on, man. You are so right on, you know. Um, and so that was really interesting, um, that he shared with me that it's a gift that's afforded to everybody, you know, not just a select few. Um, but I'm sure that as we ponder more about, you know, um the way to to commune with God and how we approach God, um, you know, we're adept to having more of those kind of experiences, I guess. Um, yeah, so going back to this one one particular dream, I he's a dear friend of mine, and um I was his young men's president for for a long time, um oh for for a couple years, and I I was hoping that he would be able to go on a mission, and so we grew close together, and then um, you know, he he he got he lost his way for a bit, and then um he he stopped going to church for a number of years, you know, and he was doing things on the other side, you know, that I can't. And so anyway, um probably I'd say roughly 10-12 years passed between us, and I didn't really see him too much, um, just living our lives and stuff like that, but I always watched him, you know, and um one night I had a dream, and and I saw him and his wife, and at the time they had a son, you know, and and I I saw them three dressed in white, and they were standing outside the temple, as if to take a photo outside the temple, as if they had just been sealed as a family. They were standing outside and they were smiling together, like as if they were posing for a bit. And um I woke up and I was like, Oh man, that was a weird dream, because I don't dream. Um so I sat on that the next night I have the same dream, but this time I see another child in the picture. There's a there's a girl, and then there's a boy, and then there's the two again, and they're smiling, and it's the same picture, and I'm like, oh. So I wake up that morning and I'm like, I think I've got to talk to my mate. I gotta find him, you know, reach him, get done. And so I gave him a call. I said, Hey, are you home? Where do you live? And so he told me, I said, Look, I've got to come over. So I went over to his house. I sat down with him, and we were speaking Maldives together. And I said to him, Look, I have to tell you I had a dream about you. And I said, You may not want to hear this, but I'm gonna tell you anyway, because what what else am I supposed to do with it? And he was just like, Oh yeah, what's your dream? And I said to him, Look, I saw you standing in front of the temple with your with your wife and two children, a son and a daughter. At the time they only had the son. And um, he was just like, Oh, oh, okay.

unknown 1:05:59

And I

SPEAKER_02 1:06:00

I said, bro, I don't just have dreams for nothing. I said, when they do come, that's it's a clear message, because I don't dream often. Um and he was like, oh right. And so I I spent that hour with him trying to tell him, bro, stop what you're doing, man. Come back to church. Like, listen to me. Listen to me. You know, if there's anything I can say about this, I I know where this comes from. I said, but listen to me, it's not an imagination, you know. And so he took it all on. We were really good. We had a good conversation. I left. Didn't hear from him for another five years. And so I thought, okay, never mind then. Five years later, five years later, I'm the bishop. And uh it's a Sunday morning, and I'm in a council meeting. And anyway, he sits down. I'm sitting in my council meeting with with all my ward council members, and we talk, and my phone rings, and I pick up my phone and I'm like, look at that, and it's his name on the screen. I'm like, oh, oh, gee, he's just caught out of the blue. So I said, Hey, look, I'm just gonna go take this call. So I popped out of the office, took the call, and he says, Bishop, where are you? And I says, Oh, I'm in the middle of a meeting, mate. And he goes, I need you to come to the to the other chapel. Yeah, it's about 20 minutes away. He goes, I need you to come to the chapel and meet me there. I says, when? And he goes, right now. I said, okay. So then I hopped off the phone and I told my counselor, hey, take over, I'm off. So I ended up driving to the chapel. And when I got there, he was dressed in white and you know, had a suit and tie on. And we went into the bishop's office and um he got reinstated back to church. And um he wanted to bring me along because of the relationship that we had had. We didn't speak about that dream, but in my head I knew, oh, it's only a year away now, you know. And so I kept telling him, you know, as we went on, I says, Hey man, remember that dream I had about you? Da da da and he was like, Oh yeah. Well, they just had a daughter, they just had a baby baby girl, you know. And anyway, a year from that date, I get an invitation to come to the temple, to their ceiling. And so me and my wife and children, we drove down to Hamilton to go to the temple. My son gets sick, and so I have to take him to the hospital down there, so I couldn't make it. So I ended up messaging him and said, Hey, I can't come to the temple to be at your ceiling. I wish I could, but I'm in hospital. And so he goes, No, that's fine, it's all good. Later on that day, all the photo showed up on Facebook and he posted one on his profile pic. And would you believe it? The very pick that he posted was the picture that I saw in my dream almost 15 years before. Would you believe it?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:50

That's incredible.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:51

Exactly the way that I saw in my dream was that picture of him, his wife, the daughter, and the son. You know, I think the sons and 17 years old now, the their daughter's about 10. That was really cool. That was a gathering of Israel, you know, story. And I thought, man, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:12

Um if you look at Lehi and his, because he's your ancestor. And you and uh spiritual gifts run in families through ancestry. Um, you look at his spiritual gifts with dreams and visions. What was the purpose of having those dreams and visions? It was essentially, if you boil it down to the very root of it, the gathering of Israel. It was about gathering sons and daughters, his own sons and daughters, and the rest of us to Jesus Christ. And when you think about your spiritual gifts and everyone else that has a spiritual gift, you're emulating your father, Lehi and Nephi, for that matter, in the purpose of having these wonderful gifts is to bring people back, back to the savior. And that's what I love when I'm studying these things, that sometimes we think that this isn't part of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is all over in the scriptures. Even more recently, Joseph Smith, the church was established through these spiritual gifts. It's necessary. And as we live, get closer and closer to the second coming, those gifts are going to be more and more necessary, especially because we're gathering Israel. So I just love that you have shared some of these differing kinds of experiences, but it's all within the context of the gathering. So what principle have you learned more deeply about uh the gathering of Israel and also how is your testimony of the savior grown as you have honored and served your ancestors?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:00

Um if if I um start with I find beauty in our culture, I find a lot of depth in terms of the symbols, uh, the symbolism and and the things that our ancestors brought on the canoes. Um that details to me how much the Lord has his hand on all of his children, and particularly with Mori. Um, and I don't mean this in a in a bragging way or anything like that. I think we're we're we're quite a unique people. Um my feeling with you know being Polynesian, being Maori is is is we're a mighty people and we don't even know it. We don't even know it. We don't fathom the influence of how mighty of a people we can be in the world. And you know, our people um are struggling. You know, they're they're struggling, you know. We have the highest rates of suicide in the world, you know, we have a high number of incarcerated Mori, and you know, they're filling up our prisons, you know, and and our mental hospitals and and falling to drugs and alcohol and and everything you can name that's out there on the street. Um gangs are just second second families, you know, and and I look at all of that and I think as powerful as our people are naturally, intuitively, if we're not aligning ourselves with the right connection to the gospel, to Jesus Christ, um we will never know. We will never know the the potential that we have as as a people, tribe of Ephraim, tribe of Manasseh. And so being able to just be a part of, you know, even in a small way, um, sharing the gospel and and talking about, you know, my cultural beliefs or my gospel beliefs with people. I always like to remind people, you know, of who they are. So you're not just the Māori, you know, you're not just the person that um, you know, just came off this locker and and is sitting here. I said, man, you know you're you're a powerful person. You're a deeply powerful people, endowed with with you know sacred gifts. And so I th I find that um there's so much beauty in our culture that um because it's so highly symbolic, there are so many layers to that. And I want our people, um in the church in the gospel setting to see the layers open so that you can actually see the crux of why we have this in our culture in the first place, you know, the purity of it, you know. Um and because there's so many layers to it, everyone's on different levels with with how we perceive our culture, you know. Um, can I just share something with you for a couple minutes?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:24

Please, that would be awesome.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:27

Okay. This here is is is um you'll always hear this being said on the Maray in our gathering places, where with our with our speakers, with our orators, and a lot of times, um, depending on the type of gathering it is, whether it's a funeral, a wedding, or or an important occasion, you'll often see see one of our elders. You'll often hear this being spoken on the Maray.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:53

And he would first get up, and the first thing he would say is this He would say, Fakorum, Fakorum, Fakorum, Kita Munuya Karania Titui, Tu e Tui Tui Tuya, Tuya Irunga, Tuya Iro, Tuya Iroto, Tuya Yo, Karmutepo, Karumuteo, Tuyatakaway Tanatoi Kima Hua Kinui Yuaki Oi Hawaii Pama, Kita kunu Kiteway, Kitafeo, Kit Marama, Fonu, Fonu, Harmite Toki, Homi Hueye, Taiki.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:26

Now, um, probably about twenty years ago I was sitting with my wife's grandfather, Taquo Wihomi, and he's uh such a respected person, uh, such a respected elder, and he um holds a lot of um writ handwritten journals from his father and his father going back. So he holds generations of journals, handwritten, about um, you know, uh gospel insights about cultural, you know, um these journals are really, really beautiful, a lot of genealogy included in them. Well, this was in there, and so I got asking him, you know, hey, what's your understanding of this? And so he told me, word for word, that in his perspective, that this is what this chant means, and it means listen, hearken, and take heed to the call of the sacred bird that calls forth. Bind, bind, let all be bound together above and below. Let all be bound together, those that are within and those that are without. And let this binding pass through the darkness and into the light. Bind together the lineage of man who descends from Hawaii, that great place that extends to the greatest distance beyond, till we are joined by the Spirit and brought to an eternal truth and light. As it has been declared, so shall it be. Unite together, become one. It is done. And so this is typically a formal chart that's given prior to a speech, and so this is uh uh before the welcoming. This is this sets the tone, it sets a spiritual tone for the people that are being gathered to listen to the speaker, and so as he says, take heed of the sacred bird that calls forth to bind and let all be bound together to bind the things that are above and to bind the things that are below. And so the the imagery here is he's talking about a bird, and the bird is the Tui bird, and this is the Tui bird here. And so the Tui bird is um it's quite a unique bird. Um, it's a beautiful looking bird, but it's it has white feathers on its chest, and the bird has a unique voice there. It's you can't um you you can you can hear all the birds in the forest singing their songs, but you will straight away recognize the voice of a Tui. The Tui has such a unique voice that you can't mistake it, and so um it has a deep throaty voice, but then it's um it it it holds it has multiple multiple tones, it has sweet melody high tones, it has you know bell tones, and then then you can just hear this deep throaty um you know tone as well, and so uh it has such a unique voice, but to us the Tui was a heavenly messenger, and and it symbolizes that this bird is the voice of the awakening, and when it calls, everyone hears it and it gathers, and so um the Tui, the word Tui means to bind, it means to sew together, to weave together. So, when you were talking about that cloak to me earlier on, um that's what you're doing, you're you're you know, um fatu tui tui, you're weaving, you're binding, you're sewing, you know, things together. And so this this going back to this one, it talks of a particular bird, the Tui bird, the sacred Tui bird that's calling out to bind everything, to bind things in the heavens to things on the earth, uh, to bind people that are within to those who are without. And so um that's sort of one particular, because there's two versions of this where you hear people say, depending on the on the type of gathering. Some people use the two yeah bird um for this chart. The other one is the huya bird. Um, this is a one, these are our native birds in New Zealand. The Huya bird is uh it's extinct now, it's probably been extinct for about a hundred years. Um probably about 10 years, maybe 20 years ago, um, a Huya feather went up for auction and it was $46,000 for that one particular feather of the Huya bird. So it's a very sacred bird because only people of high rank in our culture could wear the feathers of the Huya. And so the Huya bird to us was a symbol of power, was a symbol of authority and high rank. But the word hui means together, it means to join. And um, you and I are having a hui right now. We call this a hui because the hui between of you and I, we we're meeting together, we're gathered together. And so um going back to this chart here, you'll see um that where it says uh in the first phrase, fakorumu, fakorumu, fakorumu, it's repeated three times to listen, uh to take heed carefully to the call of the bird. Um that two word would be replaced with huya. And so huy, hui hui hui, huiya kiro, huya kiro, huya kiroto, huyaki wall means together, gather all things, um, beneath and below, you know, and um above and below, sorry. So with the imagery of these two birds, that this chart uh has quite a bit of depth. It speaks about two things. It speaks about a binding and it speaks about a gathering. So my wife's grandfather was sitting there teaching me, you know, talking to me about this, and he says to me, Who do you think the birds are? And I never thought about that question. And I was like, Oh, the birds were people? And he said, think. And so as I got to thinking about it, I was like, wait a minute, wait a minute. And then um ended up coming to April the 3rd, 1836, after the Kirtland Temple was dedicated, Moses appeared to Joseph and restored the keys of the gathering of Israel. He's the Huiyah bird, and the other bird was the was the prophet Elijah. He's the Tui bird who restores the keys of the sealing and binding. And so the imagery of these two birds being spoken of in this chart talks about two people who hold the keys of the priesthood, one for the keys of the gathering, and the other for the keys of the sealing. And I think this is a really important um chart that you know we say as a people, and you'll hear this all the time being um spoken or being used on the Murai on many occasions when you know if you come. And so he taught me something that day about how this chart, beautifully woven and symbolic, full of imagery, you can see the gospel of Jesus Christ in this, you know, talking about the binding and the sealing of our people. Um, when you come down to Tuya, Tongata, Heke Maii, Hawaii, Nui, Hawaii Rua, Hawaii Palma Mo, you're talking about three places. Our ancestors, we believe we migrated from a great place called Hawaii. Hawaii is many places, there are many ancient homelands, but there are three mentioned here. Hawaii of a great distance, Hawaii that is beyond, and Hawaii Palma Mao is beyond, beyond. One elder told me that Hawaii Nui, Hawaii Rua, and Hawaii Palma Mao are our original homelands. They're the places that are prepared for us when we pass through the vale. The other degrees of glory, Hawaii Palma Mao being the furthest, the highest up. And so, you know, our ancestors and our people could see things and interpret things in many different ways. And so, and so it is with this simple, with this simple um chart and the language and the and the depth that goes behind that. And we're really just scratching the surface on this. But I thought I would just share that with you, because you know, what you're doing with your um, you know, podcast and everything like that, and what we're all doing collectively is is really um just you know, this is it, really. You're seeing that in our culture, you know, in the language of our of our people. And so, yeah, we're the we're the Tui boots, we're the Huiya boots, we've been caught together, we've been caught to bind, and so that's the work that we do as a people. And so, you know, keep weaving, sis. You're all right.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:52

I I feel so honored. You don't know this, but I've always wanted to be a part of a Hui Tao. And so when you said we are actually having a HUI right now, that that actually meant a lot to me. And as I've studied, and I'm just like barely just dipping my toes in it, I haven't had a lot of weeks behind it. But the more that I study your culture in particular, and it widens the net to Pacific Islanders, but for some reason, and I don't know why, um, I am drawn to the Maori culture and your teachings, because I think you what you just said is layered in so many different ways, but it points us to the gospel and even more so to the temple. Your culture for generations has pointed to a certain place and space. And when you have eyes to see, and again, keep Christ that focus, it is amazing to me what I'm learning. Um, and that's just like you said, this is just the tip of the iceberg. I'm hoping that at some future point you'll come back and maybe do another video that can help us know and understand a little bit more about your culture and how it points to the gospel. Um, because I feel like Halan and I have talked a lot about this, that Ephraim and Manasseh are brothers. And we've kept so separated from each other for such a long period of time. We don't know about each other. I mean, we don't even know about our own cultures, let alone someone else's culture. But when you talk about Ephraim and Manasseh and the power of them coming together within their identity as brothers, but even further as the gathers and preparers of the last days of the second coming, your testimony from the other side of the world and teaching of your culture makes a difference to me as an Ephraimite, to understanding that we don't need to be separated in the ice anymore, right? It's this coming together as referenced in that beautiful language, it's coming together as one in preparation for Zion. So I'm feeling a draw to this, you know, and Halanan and I have talked a lot about it. You have um fortunately for us gotten involved in this broader conversation. My guests that are watching know that there is some movement behind the scenes with um with these dear sorry. These dear new brothers and sisters that I have gained. Um, and they promised they'd adopt me, by the way, but these these awesome brothers and sisters that I'm learning so much from. And uh our our end goal really is to teach and preach. To understand that cultural identity generally points us to Christ in more ways than we can understand. And it's teaching the youth about who they are. Cause as you've alluded to, we've kind of all lost sight of that. So we can't really speak to what's happening maybe at a little a later future time when we know a little bit better what's happening. Um, but I am I am so grateful that you came on and that you were willing to share your sacred experiences. I know that it can be difficult sometimes, but I I feel like there's going to be a lot of people who resonate with your testimony and your teachings. So I'm just thank you so much for coming on. Is there anything else you want to add before we we uh end it?

SPEAKER_02 1:28:49

Oh well, I just want to thank you um as well. Um yeah, I went through and saw us, you know, was looking at your your channel and I saw the caliber of people that you had on there, and I was just like, oh man, what am I doing here? You've had some really, really awesome people on your podcast, and you know, speaking of similar experiences and and whatnot and all the things that you've all the research you put onto it. Um Yeah, and so um I probably waffled on a lot throughout this thing, but um uh Shane, my my dear mate, um him and I um are looking at, you know, doing presentations um specifically around House of Israel um migrations to Mori people. Um and so, you know, we're these are the kind of things that we that we're very passionate about. And you know no one's an expert on their own culture. We've got a lot to learn, you know, and um as we continue to grow, you know, we um it's not our testimonies that we're afraid of, it's um sometimes for me it's it's just having the confidence, you know, to be able to to do that in a humble way. And so, yeah, thank you for giving me the opportunity to do that. Uh I don't take that lightly because this is the first time I've I've put myself out there, you know. And so um yeah, thank you to you for hearing me and um accepting the things that I've said today and I hope that it does sort of help anybody really that that are watching, um who might be in the same sort of predicament that I have been in. You know, I'm 45 years old now and you know, I'm kinda thinking, man, years have gone by so fast. And I don't even write these things down. And so it it's for me it's just like, man, how am I gonna be accountable to this one day? You know, and so I've got I've got some repenting to do because so many times I've ignored the promptings, so many times I've ignored the signs because of my own inadequacies and I I can no longer do that. And so here I am wanting to help other Israel in my own way. And if this is the way that I can help, then so be it. I just want to be able to leave this life and you know, get to the other side and see those people and say, Man, I got you I hate your back, you know. I hate your back. You know, I didn't let you down. And so that's that's sort of where I'm at with that.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:52

Well, thank you. I'm I feel honored that this is kind of your breakout session, and hopefully there's more to come. But I I just know that you're doing good things behind the scenes, and um, like I said, I feel like this is just the start of many uh experiences together. And I am going to come to New Zealand, it's on my bucket list, everyone knows that. I'm learning, I'm trying to learn the language.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:19

Um next year.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:22

You what?

SPEAKER_02 1:32:23

There might be a Huawei toe next year. There's a there's one schedule for next year.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:26

Really?

SPEAKER_02 1:32:27

That was planned for 2027, so we'll see how that goes.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:31

That'll be fun. I I I deeply appreciate your willingness to share also not only your experiences, but your cultural uh kind of teachings and how that relates to the gathering, because I believe within all cultures we can see the evidences of that woven within even everyday uh life. So, my friends, I hope you've enjoyed John's testimony. I know I have been spiritually fed. Um, I hope that one day I can also face my ancestors and say, I had your back. Because that will happen at some point, I know. And for me, that keeps me up at night, knowing that I will be held accountable. I will be meeting them face to face, accounting for my actions. So um, all of us, when as we're involved in the gathering, let's think of that end result and act accordingly uh when we have that final meeting with them and with our Savior Jesus Christ. So thank you, John, for joining me tomorrow. We're and you're gonna have to help me. Um I'm going to tell the story of the prophecy of Peora Tay. What's the last name?

SPEAKER_02 1:33:45

Paora Tepotanorua.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:48

Okay, see, that's the part that I have. I'm still working on that. But it's a huge uh it was one of the, I would say, forefront prophecies uh about the members or the elders of the church coming and meeting with the the Maori people. So that will be on tomorrow, and then we will hear a talk from Elder Matthew Cowley on Friday. And then the next week we're going to be talking about Ephraim and Manasseh, kind of a continuation of this uh discussion. So, my friend John, hopefully we'll have you on again. And uh you're always more than welcome. And someday we are going to meet um person to person, face to face. And this is all thanks to our friend Halana. So, my friends, join me for the rest of the week and keep gathering, keep praying for those spiritual gifts, knowing that the Lord will bless you with revelation as you seek for it. We'll talk to you soon, friends. Bye.